Charlie Zakkour from Next Gen NYC

We’re back from maternity leave and diving straight into Bravo’s newest obsession: Next Gen NYC. This week, we break down our fascination with the season’s so-called “villain,” Charlie Zakkour—his headline-worthy family moments, shady ties to the NYC crypto kidnappers, and why we can’t stop watching. Plus, we compare Next Gen with The Valley and tackle the big question: is Charlie the next Jax Taylor?

Chapters

• 5:51 Next Gen NYC
• 8:58 Housewives kids vs. Real New Yorkers
• 14:54 Charlie's relationship with his Dad
• 17:17 Charlie's relationship with the crypto bros
• 29:35 Scammers on Next Gen NYC
• 33:46 Charlie's psychology
• 39:50 Gia's role on Next Gen NYC
• 44:10 RHONY vs. Next Gen NYC
• 52:10 The Valley
• 1:02:24 Final Questions

Transcript

All right, guys, we're back. We're back in action. So we took a little break for maternity leave because I had a baby, but. And I had a baby. We actually planned to have our babies together. But we did a terrible planning because we did it while we were across the country, as opposed to, like, when we were in the same city. That's the major fault in our our our baby pact. Yes, our babies are one month apart. Irish twins. Sam finally, finally can talk about it now that she's over her, um, Jewish. Um, evil eye. Evil eye. She feels it's safe. Because we do. We may have some haters from this podcast. We don't know. We don't know. There's just everyone's got a hater. We all got lovers and we all got haters. Though I will say so. We've been getting a lot of downloads in our time off, which I really appreciate, which means new people are discovering us, which again, I welcome. Um, and I'm a little afraid that, like, we might be Jack's like lovers because our Jack's our Jack's podcast was, like, too nice on him. Now that we've seen more on the Valley. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I feel, well, you know, can we delete that one? Should we delete that one? Or you know, we will maybe in the future do a recap of in our recap of The Valley. We can talk we can, you know, go down our like where we really see Jack's now. Um, because at the time we didn't know he was a domestic abuser and it wasn't confirmed that he was a raging coke addict. And now we know those things. I mean, the coke addict thing, we definitely could have, like, put together. I mean, I feel like we did not put together that he was a coke addict or an abuser, but oh, we shouldn't be laughing at these things. Not really, but we are, because the valley is too dark. Too dark. It's really dark. It's really dark. Um, and honestly, I haven't even really wanted to recap it because it's. It got so dark. It really did. And so that brings us sort of to our topic, because the Valley came out on the same day as next gen NYC. And I remember always kind of like watching, like turning on the valley and like falling asleep during it and then having to, like, rewind and like there was a couple episodes. I may not have even watched the whole thing because I was like, I can't go back. Um, but then like next gen NYC, I would be like so excited to watch. Um, it is the light, fluffy cloud that I needed for my maternity leave. But I think also to follow like the darkness of the valley. And like when they announced it, I was like, this is gonna be chaotic and maybe bad. And it felt like Nepo baby. Like, we're not gonna like it. There's no way this is going to be good. These people like, what is their real connection? Like, what is the point of this? And that first episode, Cliffhanging, if you will, on the fight about Georgia not washing her hands, I was like, this could have gone so wrong. And yet it was the most brilliant thing I ever saw. It was so brilliant. And I love, I love Georgia, I think she's one of the breakout stars of the season. She. Yeah, she's the only one of all these kids that like, I'm like, okay, I know this New York person. I think I am like, I don't believe in washing hands either. I agree, I remember during Covid we were like, we like were like we didn't get Covid because we never wash our hands. We never washed our hands. And I actually think that makes you a real New Yorker when you don't wash your hands, right? If you're a real New Yorker, you can't believe in germs. No. And how would you survive? I remember when my friend first told me, oh, I don't wash my hands and I never get sick. And I was like, that's weird. I get sick all the time. I was like, I'm gonna stop washing my hands. I never got sick after I stopped washing my hands. So basically, this is justice for Georgia and not washing her hands. Yeah, because I never got Covid either. Right. Don't wash your hands, people. Yeah, that's that's basic. Yeah, that's what we're going against the CDC and we're going to say, don't wash your hands and you won't get sick. Yeah. My my breast milk is full of antibodies. So you're about to learn like if you're whenever your child decides to go into some sort of like schooling daycare situation, you're going to learn that you actually do need to wash your hands, because I. Truth is, I don't believe in adult germs. Yes, I agree, I agree, I agree, child germs. Those are real. That's real. I am, yeah, I'm washing my hands for the first time ever. Actually, now that I have a newborn, because kid germs are real adult germs, not real hot. Take. so next gen, I guess it originally was Charlie and a bunch of, like, authentic New York kids, and then they. Well, no, actually, I believe I read an article. The EP is also an EP from Salt Lake City, and she liked Brooks. And she like Brooks groups, a group of friends, and Charlie and all the authentic New Yorkers were a mix of that. Um, but then they wanted to bring in the Housewives kids, which was really, really, I guess because she made sense, because Brooks was already friends with her. But then, um, Kim Zoli's, the zodiac's daughter, Ariana or Ariana is her name. Mhm. Yeah. Kim Zolciak daughter Ariana got thrown in because she was just, like, moving there. Damon Dash's daughter, she might have been in the original cast, but there was like other people who I guess left the show when they found out, like housewives, kids were going to be involved, somebody I didn't know their name. And then also, uh, Kimora Lee Simmons daughter, I guess, potentially ditched the show, though now that it's a huge hit, maybe she would come back. Big mistake. Huge. Huge. Um, it's like the most watched premiere, like, ever. Really? Yeah. So it's been a breakout hit. And I have to say, for Bravo in the future, they've taken some big swings on these, like Love Hotel, Next Gen NYC, and they've all been successes. So I actually think what you're going to see in the next year is them going away from some of these, like, don't expect to see Real Housewives of New Jersey anytime soon. Uh, Real Housewives of Atlanta is in serious trouble. I think even Real Housewives of OC might be in trouble because they're I think a really interesting comparison is that of like this next gen NYC and then the reboot of Rhony, because technically both of these shows are influencers, right? Like Rhony was all these like older influencers and now next gen NYC, like even the, you know, Nepo Bravo kids are technically influencers at this point, right? Like, that's their main bread and butter, I imagine. And just like the different approaches that happened between the two and how next gen NYC just felt so much more authentic. Yeah. And also. I think justice for you because you kept saying this. If Ronin was not called Roni and it was called like real influencers of New York City, it would have been better. And I think next gen NYC kind of proved that. I also liked that they're all naturally, mostly naturally friends all the same age. Mine is Charlie. Well, I mean, mentally he's younger. Younger. Um, but also, I think what was interesting to me about the dynamic was there's clearly like the new New Yorkers who kind of came with money and influencer and were housewives, kids or whatever with these real gritty New Yorkers, which actually wasn't sure that Gen Z had these kind of New Yorkers anymore. So it was like, interesting to see Charlie and Georgia and even that, um, I guess Dylan was one of the ones who backed out when the Housewives kids came on, but then ended up being a friend of, um, he was the only fans, like, bisexual cast member who we didn't see that much of. I loved also the chaotic nature of Just Like. And then it was like it was that guy Dylan's assistant was in Jersey trying to talk Riley off of a cliff. Oh, that's who that guy was. I like that guy. I like him better than Dylan. Oh, yeah, and I think that they in the mix of all the different people just being in and being out. And I know people are saying Gia should leave, but I was like, I like that she forced them to go to new Jersey. Like it added a lot. Um, but it was interesting to see that dynamic of Charlie and Georgia versus like, these new New Yorkers because they almost had this sort of rough and tumble, like, we're gonna make it in New York, like Georgia. Throwing that party at Katz's Deli did seem very cool. But then when she tried to throw the club, club event was so bad, but it kind of worked out. Um, then she gets this, like, rich boyfriend that she moves in with. It was just so classic, like survive in New York and then. Right. And Charlie did come from like, family money, but he also was just pulling. And we're going to get into all of this. But but he really is like a rich kid of New York. Like he like he gives off like that rich, preppy, annoying kid from New York, but also like, pulling some serious scams, like, I, I there was I mean, isn't that part of it like a hundred percent? That's part of it. And and I think if you're in your twenties in New York and you're not pulling some kind of scam or getting some kind of freebie, like you're doing it wrong. Yeah, that's. I mean, maybe he's taking it too far, which we can get into later. Um, there's definitely some things that's, like, real questionable and legal implications. So I know because everyone canceled. Jack's. Rightly so. And Jack's is not coming back to the Valley, so it worked. But a lot of people, I mean, obviously Charlie was the villain of next gen NYC, clearly. But a lot of people have been comparing Charlie to Jack's, and I feel like it's a bit extreme. Uh, Charlie made the show for me. I understand that he was like the villain, and he did a lot of questionable things. But I was I was fascinated, but he also gave us so much like, and this is the big core difference for me about Charlie versus like, a Jax. Um, I know some people compared him to James Kennedy, and I guess we got some of this with James Kennedy. But like, Charlie gave us, like, the archetype of why he is who he is, right? Like, his dad showed up and, like, filmed. And we had like, we see these, like, this parent child dynamic and how that so clearly led Charlie to, like, be the villain that he is and be the person that he is. And that's something we never got from Jax. Like, we don't like, how did Jax become Jax? We don't know. Like, all we ever got was like, after his father passed away. This idealized version of how his dad was, like, the best person ever. And it's like, then how did you become, like, I guess, you know, nature, nurture. Like some of it is probably just who he is in his temperament. But like, you know, narcissism doesn't get created in a vacuum. I mean, his mom was dating Basquiat and then abandoned him after the age of ten, but she somehow totally good with her. But then when we see his dad, Anwar, um, well, it makes sense that he's totally good with her. There's. So there's, like, a juxtaposed scene when I rewatched it where he's out to lunch with the mom and she's. She's very, like, cool, artsy like. And he's talking about, like, the things that he wants to do and like his career. And she's like, well, do you need to do that? Like, you don't really need to do that. And like giving him this messaging that like, you know, almost like fulfill like your creative or whatever, your aspirational endeavors. But don't worry about like work. And then juxtapose that like later in the same episode, there's a scene with his dad where his dad is like, what are you going to do with your life? Like what? Like what are you worth, kid? Like you're never going to be me. And. And basically saying, like you're never going to, like, live up to who I am. And so it makes sense that, like, it's easy to forgive mom for abandoning me, even though in that abandonment, she left me with my father, who's, like, cold and cruel. Um, because now she makes no demands of me. And so, like, I'm accepted and loved unconditionally. Almost by mom. Where with dad, it's like competition and expectation and coldness. And so, yeah, to me, it makes sense that he's kind of like, oh, mom, me and mom are good. And when he talks about the competition with his dad and then the dad, like, you know, there was several incidences. I mean, the one that I remember was something about whether the elevator in the apartment they grew up in went to a certain floor. And then there was something else wild that happened when they went to there. The dad said, who's more attractive, me or Charlie to like the young girls? That was like, truly twisted. And he said something in the scene with them in the interview, with his interview scene within the mom scene where he's like, maybe when my dad sees this, he'll like, cut me off. Mhm. But I'm like, I'm very I hope Anwar is on next season because I am dying to see his reaction because the way he came off, it's truly a little bit twisted for you to be asking that question and competing with your son in that way. Well, also the first scene we have with Anwar, he says to Charlie, like, your sister's my favorite. Like, that's the first like, interaction we see between them. And the producer asked Charlie, uh, do you remember something hurtful that your father said? And he's like, I, I it's hard for me to remember things that aren't hurtful. That might hurt me. No, I think he says, don't they say, do you remember anything nice your dad said about you? And he's like, I can. There's way more like hurtful things. Oh, I. Either way, whatever it was, it was just it was like, really it was it was sad. Like, that's what it is. It's really sad. And then, you know, all the all the, all of his friends are sitting there as they're in Long Island looking at him and his dad being like, look at how cute they are. They look like they it looks like Charlie when he grows up. And like, unbeknownst to them, they're like in this competitive, unhealthy dynamic out there. Well, and I think Charlie being compared to some of these villains is a little unfair because he doesn't have a girlfriend. We don't see him really being abusive. The only person he's hurting is himself. Yeah. I mean, the stuff with Riley about sort of these microaggressions, he he was he looked bad. He was bad. It was bad and he was right to apologize. He was wrong to weirdly take back the apology like ten minutes later. Um, but that scene was amazing when he's trying to, like, run out the house and then the tarot card reader is like, I have to tell you about your future. And he's like, no, no, I don't need this. Um, and his relationship with Georgia is sort of being on and off. I want to get into the speaker fight, because I feel like you have some deep thoughts on it. Um, but yeah, in the I wish we had gotten the scene of him at the box. So let's give the backstory about this Crypto Bros article that dropped this week, uh, in New York magazine. Yeah. So do you want to do the recap of it? I mean, I'll do the best recap I can. It's a wild article. I mean, if you want to read it, Charlie is like really a byline in it, but basically, I don't know, at the end, he's got quite a he's got a lot. In the end. Okay. Towards the end of the article. Yeah I feel like they talk about him quite a bit. So. When it was around the time of the premiere of Next Gen, these two crypto guys got arrested for. Apparently, I think it was in April or May or something. Yeah, yeah. Kidnapping another crypto guy and trying to steal his crypto. Because all you really need is someone's password to steal all their money. And it's not, you know, insured in any way. And Charlie was with the two guys when they got arrested and like, photographed. And it was like, whoa. And he like, when all the pictures kind of came out of these guys arrests, what you see is these guys in, like, robes being arrested and hauled off by NYPD. And Charlie is in like the background of these pictures, just kind of like, oh, what am I doing? Like, what's going on, guys? That's what I imagine him saying. That's exactly his face in these photos. Like, whoa, Well, I'm here now. I'm like, do I leave, do I stay? What's what's happening? Dude's like, dude, leave. Like, why are you staying there? To be photographed. Oh my God. It reminds me of the scene where he's like, like rolling a joint and smoking a joint, and he's like, can you guys not film how disgusting my apartment is? And then I'm just smoking weed in the middle of the day. It's like that. Don't shoot in your disgusting apartment if you don't want that. Everyone's like, Bravo did him dirty in that. But like he did himself dirty in that. Like you're being filmed like your apartment's disgusting. Like, of course they're gonna show it that that was the most amazing scene. And I really liked how they broke the fourth wall in that show because it was very like, okay, also. Sidebar. But. Seth. Seth. Oh, my God, Seth needs to be like the coach. So many people hate Seth on this show, but I actually and I'm sorry, guys, but this is like all over the place. You have to, like, forgive us because we're still on Maternity Brain, but like Seth Marx was chef's kiss on that show. I am sorry. Like his sit down and hang out with Charlie where you think he's about to say, don't objectify my daughter. And instead he says, you know, you know, we do what we do. We're men. Even with even with Brooke. And just that comparison of, like, the way Seth Marx is as a father versus like, Anwar as a father is, like, so fucking fascinating. Like, I want that, like, that's what I want from this show. I want, like, all these, like, different elements and like, to me, it's such, like an interesting sociological study. Oh, yeah. For season two, they need Brooks and Seth, and Charlie and Anwar like to, like, have lunch together. Yeah. Like a father? Yeah. Even like a lunch. I totally agree, it's like they don't. Even when you have fascinating characters like that, you don't even need, like, the bells and whistles of, like, a retreat or a camping. Or you could literally there were some dinner scenes in that show. That was perfection. And that set scene was amazing. When he's like, I'm trying to be pans, don't tell my wife. Like you're being silly. Oh my gosh. In the part where he says to Brooke's like, um, you're too I want to be your mother. Yeah, I need to be their mother. I need to be the mother, though I sort of get that because I feel like my husband feels that way sometimes. Oh, one hundred percent. And then he's like, okay, now it's finally my time to you be attached to me. And then for to bookend at the end of the show with him going to like an investor meeting with Brooks and Brooks being like, pretend to not be my dad. And then he's immediately like my son. And then he's like, dad. And he's like, wait, you're not supposed to be my dad. It was so good. So good. I don't know, Seth Marks is so funny and so interesting and clearly problematic, but in, like, a very charming way. And it was interesting to see Meredith Marks like Secret Life in New York, because she doesn't live in Salt Lake City. She, like, clearly lives in New York. She lives there part time when the show is filming. And that's enough for me because I need her as part of Salt Lake City, so y'all can hate on her and her, like, decision to live different places. But we need her. Yeah. So. So back to the crypto. I mean, Charlie does say he, like, works in crypto. I don't know what the fuck that means. Like in general. Um, but this article kind of details his actual role with these guys. And he was basically he was their their pimp. Well, okay. To me, the article said that he was their pimp. Brandy Melville. Yeah, he was either Melville. He was either recruiting girls from Brandy Melville or getting them into like, these different, like, clubs, but most specifically this club, the box, which interestingly enough, is the club that he goes to with Riley and Arianna and all them and ditches on the bill. Yeah. So. Okay. Fun, fun fact when the box opened, it's like, sort of like it's a high end club, but like, they have burlesque dancers and burlesque shows or whatever. This I all learned later, but me and a friend were drunkenly walking down the street at two in the morning, and we walked in front of the boxes like big doors with these big guys, and we're like, what? And it's in the kind of in the middle of nowhere it looks like a factory. And so we were like, oh, what is this? And the guy goes the box and they're like, oh! And then we were like, can we go in? And he looked us up and down and was like, no. That is my one experience of the box. I think that's probably the best experience you probably could have had of the box. And then we laughed in his face and like teetered on. I've heard it's like really disgusting. I they spent Fourteen thousand dollars. These kids like. And for Riley's offense to germs, I feel like the box is the last place she should want to go. Because I hear it's just like bodily fluids everywhere. More than I would know, I was not allowed in some second hand accounts of the box. Um, I've never been in either. They definitely would look me up and down and also say no. Um, the flip flops, I think, was the problem for someone who is, you know, really offended by germs. I'm surprised that her biggest issue was like the finances of the box and not like the, you know, well, Charlie definitely surfaces that were probably in her face basically in this crypto. Yeah, he would get these crypto bros to go to the box and spend too much money, which is essentially what he he scammed Riley into doing as well. And he brought probably Brandy Melville girls with him one hundred percent. Yep. Up. Um, I, you know, to be honest, I thought the text she sent about Chloe wasn't that bad. Where he was like, we might be at. Or maybe I'm just so, like, naive or whatever, but I didn't think he was like, maybe we'll be back at my place. It didn't seem like he was like, and I'll be bending over and fucking her like, it's really like something you shouldn't send to the girls, brother, right? Like, because there was an insinuation of sex in it, but it wasn't like, graphic and like, so terrible. It wasn't so objectifying of her. It was, you know, it was something you would send to, like, a friend. But I get where it's like, inappropriate to send to her brother. Yeah. Who's supposed to be your friend? Like, yeah, you know, but they were making way too much of that one. But, um, I thought their date with Chloe, the date with Chloe was kind of went well, I thought normal. It seemed normal. Well, it's interesting too, because, um. Did he pay, I wonder? Chloe let us know. I think production paid, but that's a side story. Um. Ava Dash, Damon Dash's daughter, Damon Dash is a bit of a scammer, too, because apparently so and so, but she kind of seems like a scammer. Oh, totally. So she definitely fit in with that with the scammer. Even though her mother is Rachel. Roy may or may not be Becky with the good hair. If if she. I mean, she's probably a scammer too, right? If she is Becky with the good hair like you going to do that to Beyonce. You got to be a little bit of a scammer. I need her to come back next season and tell us what's her mom Becky with the good hair? Yes or no? Like, clear it up. She'll never tell us. Um, I actually feel like she was kind of a blob because she didn't really, I don't know, she was too guarded. I felt like that's what I'm saying. She's gotta bring something. If she wants to come back next season, bring Becky with the good hair or don't show up at all. Don't show up at all. Okay, so back to this like crypto case. So is these two dudes who, um, came to New York. They were crypto people. They apparently the article was interesting because it talked how they, like, wrote a manifesto of how they were going to steal from bad crypto. People steal only like, kind of like Robin Hood. Steal from the rich to give to themselves. I'm not sure. Um, but steal from the bad people to give to themselves. Um, and so and all the bad people were, I think, international people. It was not like people from the US. It was like only targeting people who are internationally crypto trading or whatever. Um, so they kidnapped this or I don't know, it's actually very questionable what happened. Right? Like, so there's this guy who was hanging out with them. Partying with them. Yeah. He either was kidnapped or severely hazed. It was. There was definitely some hazing that was going on. And it's like where the line of hazing went to. Assault and torture and kidnapping, like, is unclear. Um, how much like he was an active or accepting participant and like, where the line was that he said like, no, more like, I'm not okay with this is again, unclear. Um, I. Has there been a court case yet? I don't know if there's been a court. I think they're going into, like, I think they were just starting the beginning of trial, like at the end of the article. So it's like happening now ish. It's definitely going to be an interesting case. Um, they both seem like really insane characters. These people seem unwell. Yeah. Um, and the manifesto basically does say they were trying to steal crypto stuff from people. So that's going to be, you know, good evidence. But then there's also this guy was like partying and doing drugs and having sex and like hanging out at their place. So again, it's unclear. But anyways, all that to say that like again, Charlie was in the background of this and he's known to have like brought girls. And I think one of the girls who was quoted in the article talking about this, you know, the guy that was being tortured and kidnapped was a girl that Charlie brought from Brandy Melville. I love the Brandy Melville direct line to sex trafficking. Like, apparently he really, like, hung out there a lot. That's weird. He's gonna need to stop hanging out there now. Yeah, we need him to come back. I feel like he's not going to come back, but we need him to come back because we like I. I want to know. I mean, he's gotta come back. He's gotta come back. Like, Bravo. Make him a good offer. We need him. We do need him. I mean, he shut down a few things, but he also was at the center of, like, a lot of the conflict. Um. And then he gets mixed up with Omar, too, which is George's now ex-boyfriend, who's also a scammer. Scammer. Explain his scam. This should have been next generation of scammers NYC. Well, we need to get like Anna Delvey on here. We need to get who is the the beach girl? Oh my gosh. And, um, Kim Zolciak is a scammer. Yeah, another scammer scammed her own daughter. Like, I mean, you could say Teresa Giudice is also a scammer. Definitely a scammer. Yes. Is Meredith Marx a scammer? That's a question. Oh, I love Meredith Marx, so I will never say anything bad about her. But there's a lot of George's boyfriend. I read an article that while he was in college, and I don't understand any of this crypto finance stuff at all, so I'm going to explain this terribly. Um, but apparently he, like, set up a fake company and got all this money from people, and then it wasn't, like, real. And so he got caught for, like, making a fake company by the SEC. Don't know what that stands for. Something financially. Wait, did Whitney explain this on Salt Lake City when she was talking about Lisa Barlow's company? I need Whitney to come in and explain it because I don't remember. But yes, I think she did. Um, it's like some securities for this stuff. Um, so the stocks and the stocks and. Yeah. Um, and basically, you got caught with his fake company and had to, like, pay back lots of money. And I don't think he served any, like, jail time or anything, but was like, scamming people. Well, and apparently he left Georgia in Singapore and did that to another girl as well. So this is a he likes to take women's a pattern, abandon them. What a random place to we probably pick the furthest place on earth that he could just abandon a girl. Well, that's a story I also want more information about. Like, I feel like. I wish like there was one more episode of the show to, like, talk about. Like what? What happened? Georgia. I need to know. Well, and it was interesting how they, like, ended on sort of that cliffhanger like. And then she moved back in with Charlie. Now they could share the speaker at least. Um, so yeah, he's definitely okay working as a promoter for the box. Like that's clear, I don't know. Yeah. Or he's getting some side deal with the box to, like, bring people in and have them spend a certain amount of money. I don't know what to say about the sex trafficking for Brandy Melville girls. I just hope they were all of age and of their own for like, their own choice. I'm sure Brandy Melville only hires people who are eighteen years of age and older. Um, they do gotta wear those small, small shirts. Well, knowing that, you know, Charlie comes and pimps them out, I'm hoping they did their due diligence to check. I know where is Brandy Melville's PR on this? Like, what do they want to say? Well, what I think is really interesting about all of this. And if I'm going to like, kind of break it down in a more like psychological way is like, I get this sense that for Charlie, there is such like a deep wound of wanting to be seen as like, valuable and worthy and like he can contribute something. I think that like, totally comes from his father. And so this role that he's playing in this crypto like thing makes so much sense to me. Like, okay, this is a moment where he gets to like, be needed, be seen as like, right? Like he's he's getting he's getting some sense of like belonging, like, oh, these people want me around. They see my value. They see what I have to offer. Um, and so it makes a lot of sense to me. And if we want to kind of bring it to next gen NYC. I think he came in because he says to George at some point, right when they're fighting, like, you're only here because of me. And so I get the sense that when they were casting the show, he was maybe one of the main people. They were also casting around. I think him and Brooks were friends, and they must have been like casting around him. And he was like, bring my friend Georgia, bring my friend Ava, bring like these different people that I'm friendly with. And maybe some of those other people are also that that didn't show up are also people he's friendly with. And this was like a real chance for him of like, oh, I can like make myself like worthy of something here. Right. Like I've, like, created something. And then quickly, I think what he felt especially. And if we want to get into like the speaker gate of it all, which I think also speaks to to this a little bit, is he was starting to feel at that point ostracized by the group. Right. Like it was after what happened with Riley and people were like, oh, like you just did something that like, we can't support, right? Like, race is such a sensitive thing and we don't want to, like, get behind it. And you had a tantrum around it. And so a lot of the cast was kind of like turning on him, especially in an Ava turned on him a little in that moment. And I think she was someone who made him feel like safe and secure. And Georgia made him feel safe and secure, and they kind of, like, turned on him and were becoming friendlier with, like, all the little Bravo people. And I think he was feeling a sense of rejection. And it's interesting that the moment the speaker thing started was the moment that Georgia was hosting the event for Meredith. Right. Like, she's like really immersing herself now into, like, the Bravo part of this show, right? Like the Bravo kids by host. By by doing this event for Meredith. And this is the moment that Charlie chooses to be like, give me my speaker back. And to me I see it as like right. There's like this attention seeking, there's this tantrum of it like that's, that's sort of how I see it. I'm curious what you think about that. Oh I think that's a right on take for sure. It's really interesting because I think the comparison with Jax was always because Charlie kept being like, this is my show. It's actually kind of Brooks's show, and Brooks doesn't carry it well. I mean, the biggest criticism I was seeing online was all the scenes where it was just Brooks's like inner thoughts that didn't need to be. And why didn't we just hear the fight? I thought there was some comedy in it, but Brooks is a hard character to carry a show. Um, and I think Charlie stepped in and did carry the show in some way as, but, you know, as a villain, like, not someone you're rooting for. But no one was really rooting for Brooks either. He just kind of is. He's a neutral, sarcastic. Brooks is good comic relief to me. Yeah, like that's what he's really good because he's got that, like deadpan, he's he is interesting to watch, but he's not bringing a lot. And Ariana and her boyfriend, as the outsiders who just moved to New York and they're trying to find an apartment. They got these big dogs. They were kind of they were sort of the audiences like, what if I moved to New York City kind of thing? Mhm. Um, so yeah, I feel like it was, you know, they needed Charlie, but I think that's what made people compare him to Jax. But it was like a cry for attention. He needs he needs a lot of love because he didn't get it from either of his parents. Right. I think it's so typical that, like, in moments when he feels either vulnerable or rejected or, you know, something around not feeling worthy or needed, like he starts to act out like, and we see it like even with, um, even with Riley. Right? Like when she's like, wait, I really want to talk to you. I want to, like, work this out with you. And he's like, no, get off of me. He's like getting very defensive and like, pushing away because he, like, has an extremely insecure attachment. Like, there's a lot of fear of rejection, abandonment, because that's all he's experienced from mom and dad was either being abandoned or being rejected. It was a very interesting and I'd be interested next season. Like Riley's whole, you know, take on, you know, the microaggressions that were coming her way, uh, happened a number of times. And I guess Gia has gotten a lot of flack for it as well. Um, I, I think it was one of those things where it's like a good reflection, but I don't. Charlie definitely should have just apologized and moved on. But like Gia says, I didn't really know why. It seemed a little unfair how much hate she was getting about it, because that's what microaggressions are, right? Like, you don't know you're doing them. And I think it's internalized racism that like you've learned from society and from social structures that you don't recognize you're actually playing out. Um, the problem with them is if someone tells you you're engaging in a microaggression, it's good to just, like, slow down and be like, wait, was I like, what have I internalized? Yeah. Which is what Charlie should have, you know, he did, and then he took it back or whatever, I don't know. Well, I think he was in a defended moment. I think he was feeling vulnerable. He was feeling rejected. And so he wasn't able to look past his own wounds to see what he was doing. Yeah, but I think Gia was on Watch What Happens Live. And she took a very, you know, like she kind of explained herself and, and I think owned it a little bit. Just saying, you know, I've always been the big sister taking care of my sisters on Real Housewives of New Jersey. And I had to realize, like, that's not my role on this show, and I don't need to be correcting people or like and I thought that and Andy Cohen's like, that's more self-reflection than your mom's ever had. So. Well, do you know what's really interesting? Because we do have this, like comparison between Gia and Teresa and then, um, Ariana and Kim Zolciak. Yeah. And what I think is interesting is that straight out the front of the gate, Ariana came out and was like, these are all like the shitty things my mom has done. And she did it in a way that was like, this is all the shit. I'm going to give it to you guys straight, and I'm still going to like, defend and support my mom because I love her and like she is a flawed and like problematic person. But I still love her. Where Gia, like she will never talk bad about her mom. Mhm. Even in her saying like I played this like motherly role to my siblings, there isn't the like she's never going to be like because my mom went to jail or because like. Right. There's never going to be like a telling us like there were moments where my mom was a bad mom because, like, come on, there's no way with everything that that family has been through that there isn't some anger that Gia or the other girls hold towards Theresa for, you know, whether it's not knowing whether you know, whether it's her own struggle with self-reflection. Like, there's got to be like anger. But Gia will never give that to us. And that's what makes her not like, even outside of her not being a New Yorker really. Like, to me, that's what makes her not fit on the show. Well, I think you just described main cast versus friend of. Mhm. And for me next season on next Gen which there's definitely going to be next season. Um I, I like the cast as it is. I would keep everyone. I would make it keep it chaotic. See who it'll be interesting next season though, because it, you know, the Valley is sort of like Jamie Stein has a really good podcast on the Valley, by the way, if, um, that kind of talks about this bigger picture of like reality TV and like bigger way And what's interesting about the Valley is everyone authentically wants to be famous, but they want that. That is their personality. So whereas sometimes, you know, someone comes in reality TV and they're being thirsty and it's just so, like, obvious and clear, like Teddi Mellencamp or something. Um, but like, you can't trash talk Teddi Mellencamp anymore in good conscience. I know, well, you know, like someone who just is, like, thirsty. And she, unfortunately was first in line. But, um, you know, with the Valley, no one's really thirsty because they just like they that is their they they came to Hollywood to be famous, right? And with next gen sort of similar but more in a New York way is like they came to New York to, like, make something of themselves, but it's not so thirsty for reality TV. So I'm interested in the next season. Is it going to be like, you know, is everyone almost going to be the way Charlie was this season? Like, this is my show. And, um, that's why I'm almost more interested for Charlie to come back, because I think he'll come back with his tail between his legs in a way, whereas I feel like some of these other people are going to come back like, this is my show. Maybe we don't, you know, like Georgia might come back being like, this is my show now. Like she could turn the tables because she really she had a lot of story last season. Mhm. Um, not that I know where it would be going now, but I feel in a probably in a chaotic way. Um, and that girl who was a model. Why do I not even remember her name? Oh. Um. Amira. Yeah. You don't remember her? Because I feel like she actually brought the least amount of story. And I feel like she's interesting. And she gave some good comedic relief. And I think, you know, she's the one who let us know that Georgia's boyfriend was a scammer. So we could all, like, find the articles online that explained it to us. She was like, Google it. Google it, and I did. Um, but I want more of her. I want to hear more of her story. Right. Like we don't. She had some good like she said that. And then she also called out when Ava was like, ah, I have to go to this thing in the Hamptons, and it's really important to my career. And then she's like, oh, I was invited to that. It's like a big nothing. Um, and so she was interesting in that way, but I feel like I want more from her if she comes back. Something I really respect about the show and Bravo is that she was the, you know, really the first trans cast member, main cast member on the show. And they never talked about it, which I thought was really it wasn't her storyline. Her storyline wasn't about being a being trans, and I love that. I think they did. They even say it ever. I don't think she ever even talked about it. I think there was one point where she talked about it briefly, but it wasn't. Again, it wasn't like, this is my story, this is all I'm about. Like, she she had. So like there was so much more that she brought than that. And that was nice. And she did have a good scene with her boyfriend that was kind of interesting, but she's someone I could see coming back and being like, I want story and like coming in like a bull in a China shop. Um, but yeah, I feel like cancel Roni and order more next gen NYC like, because it felt like New York again. And this is something we had talked about on our pod with Amy is like, the New York women didn't go to events like they didn't go to real things. They didn't even really feel like New Yorkers. Not at all. Not at all. Like when you think of the OG Roni, you think of like, these are Upper East Side women, right? Like. And Bethany, these are women. And Bethany and then and Carol. Right. And then we have like some of the downtown women come in, but in general, like it's like a snapshot of a place of New York that like, makes sense. Yeah. You know, with the new Roni women, I was like, where do I don't know where these women live? I don't know. Like, I know where some of them live because they talk about living in Tribeca or wherever. But like, it's to me you're not part of, like, a subcultural subset of New York. And that's like what I want to see. Yeah. Exactly where like when Georgia's describing growing up on the Upper West Side, I'm like, yes, this this girl is Upper West Side. Like kid like I know this kid. And you know, even like Charlie, like you, you know, he grew up downtown in some, like, fancy building, like, you know, where they're live and the, like culture that comes around that. And that's interesting. Like, I feel like New Romney should be cast almost around Park Slope moms. Like like what you're saying like a subset of New York, because originally Romney was Upper East Side like women. It was. And then it was, you know, what's her name, lived in Brooklyn. And that was a big controversy that she lived all the way in Brooklyn. But yeah, like, I felt like Romney was just like, let's pick the perfect diverse cast that will fulfill what the bloggers want, but they're all from the same area. So they all knew each other, right? Because they were all kind of going to the same parties. There was this genuine connection, even if they weren't really friends, which again, was the criticism of the second Roni is like, oh, you've just mashed some people together and said, be friends to be a cast. And I honestly think this is the struggle. And OC has been terrible at casting for years, but it's the casting is because Real Housewives of OC was the OG, and it originally was about a, you know, a suburban neighborhood behind the gates of Coto de Caza. They all lived in that one subdivision, right? And now it's like OC. It's like they do kind of live all over. And like there's many towns within Orange County and they're very different and different also like classes as well. You know, Jean is not nearly as rich as, um, you know, any of the other women. Let's be honest, Heather. And so we're losing a little bit of the place, and the place actually does play a lot into. Well, that's part of, like, the sociological like microscope that these shows like, are founded on. Right? Like you're getting to look at something and see a culture, a group of people, a class A like something that like, you're not immersed in, right? Like Jersey, like this is like a group of Italians from Jersey that like, I don't know, but I am fascinated to watch. Well, and if you think about the Valley, this is what I just kept saying about the Valley. It's really a study on what happens to young LA people who want fame or whatever, who settle down and have kids, and the sort of. But that's still like a culture, right? Like that is a thing that's not That's it. Didn't like the valley. Does not feel like a bunch of people who are mushed together and told to be friends, as dark as it is. Yeah, because it really is like. Well, it wouldn't be so dark if it was just mushed. Well, I don't know. I guess Ronnie got really dark, so who knows? That was a twist. Yeah, but the valley is it's it's like this midlife crisis you have when you have kids. And, I mean, that's what I, I that was the most interesting to me. Part of the Danny Darko of it all was like, you know, he has these four kids under four now, and, you know, he wants to go out and chug some vodka in a secret closet because he's just so overwhelmed by the responsibilities on his shoulders. And like, that is a fascinating story to me. And we didn't get to hear that story because we got to hear Janet trying to take out his reputation. Right. And to me, that was not, you know, you know, I'm interested to see how his Kristen going to be as a mom, because, you know, when you're forty something and you have your first kid. I mean, that's a real life earthquake that happens. And, you know, a lot of these people still do go to events, go to influencers, go out to bars. They have to. Right. Like that's how they're making money. That's how she's going to afford to have her kid. So I think that's an interesting dynamic. I just they they went obviously in the wrong direction. I actually think Real Housewives of Rhode Island might be good for this, because it's such a small state. And where they're all from, I'm sure is close together and like is more of a subset. I don't know how Dolores may or may not fit into it all. Um, I know they're talking about to see. Yeah, next gen LA, and I think next gen LA. They should do it because it'll be it probably will be better than the reboot of Vanderpump Rules. Hmm. Interesting. Because those those are some fighting words. I yeah, I, I'm not convinced that the reboot of Vanderpump Rules is going to be good. To be honest, I don't think anyone's convinced of it. We're all just like, let's wait and see. Yeah. I mean, okay, so hot. Take on Sina joining the valley. Oh, you want to know my hot take? Sina like in Lala or just Sina? Well, I think they're saying it's just not okay. Sheena. Sheena. Um. I really don't like Sheena personally. Um. And I feel like the valley is good the way it is. And I feel like Sheena is going to bring a desperate energy that's going to like, I don't know, I'm worried about her. Like, if we look at, like, how the last season of Vanderpump Rules went down, where she was, like, forcing a certain type of storyline that benefited her and the show. And it basically destroyed the show. Um, I don't know. Like, I, I, I worry because I feel like she's, like, too much of a schemer. Well. And so something that came out in her book and then she didn't even share her affair. So like, what is she going to share? That's true. Beside she's just going to stir the pot with everyone else and not even really share anything true about herself. That's that was the anger I was. I was hoping to get out of here. Um, but I have to say, the reality reckoning of it all, I guess. In her book, she talks about how they kept demoting her and then paying her less, or she would make a rate just per episode. Mhm. And I was like, wow, that's really effed up. Like these are the, these are the um, actual strings that you see that happen in reality TV. That's actually really twisted because they know that Sheena is the most is coming back. Yeah. Thirsty needs, needs it. And if they had done the same thing to say Katie um, or Ariana, they just wouldn't they just be like, ah I'm done. Yeah. They would walk away or they would just get what they got and they'd take it. But they knew if they did that to Sheena, she would bring it. So that's why they kept demoting her. And that's why it's actually very twisted, if you think about it that way. But then it's like, then why does she want to come back? Well, and she may have really made some I mean, some of these reveals does not make Bravo look good or Lisa Vanderpump, so I don't know. But the Valley needs some light and love. I don't know, Sheena is light and love though. No, she's she might be good as gold, but she's not light in love. Although I, I mean, I wouldn't mind to see the fallout of this affair situation. I feel like it's it's not. There's not going to be any. And if there is, we're not going to see it. If we even think back to her and Shay. Like, we didn't even really get to see that as much as we would have liked to. Well, I'd be interested to now, knowing this information. Watch that last season of Vanderpump again because like, oh my God, I just like thought how she is like Lisa Vanderpump. She like protects men over women. Well that was. Oh my God, it's so dark. And then in her book she talks about how Vanderpump is so evil for it, but she does it too. Well, she took a hot take to be on the right side of history, but at the same point, like her argument is why she was trying to forgive Sandoval was because she was trying to forgive Brock. And so there was this weird. But she's a man apologizer like from back in the day. Well, she like, think about the episode where they're like, in Mexico or something, and she has to ride in the dude's van and she's like, I get along better with guys. Okay. And she was like, y'all could gang bang me or something. Like, she said something like crazy. Audience members. This might be the opening of what we need to Do with Sheena. Episode. Oh my God. Yeah. Holy shit. I'm just making this connection that she is like. She made this whole thing in her book, right? About how Lisa Vanderpump is like a male apologizer, which, like, I think is probably true a little bit. Um, but also might be like producer led. Um, I don't know. Are we blaming Alex? Alex Baskin for things or. No. What's her hot take on that? Uh, I actually understand. Okay, here's where I stand on Alex. Alex Baskin a respect. Alex baskin. Alex baskin, if you want to give me a job, I will accept it. I mean, you've made art. You've made art. I've made art. Um, so I'm not one to come for anyone behind the scenes. Mostly because I need to be employed. Uh, but also, I kind of, I do understand. And here's the thing reality TV. Okay, this morning I just watched The Biggest Loser. Um, Netflix documentary too, by the way. And it's all about how Biggest Loser was toxic. But I was like, all you had to do was watch Biggest Loser to know it was toxic. You need a documentary to tell you this, right? Um, and it's ironic that we've come to the point in unscripted TV where we're making we're making shows about shows and how we're eating ourselves at this point. But, you know, it did. The foundation of reality TV was this chaotic idea of documentary docu series. And he's not wrong in the sense that the dynamic between Brittany and Jax for how dark it was and how toxic it was. I truly do hope somebody is who's in that kind of relationship, saw that, recognized it and walked away. And there's a good chance that that did happen. Now, is that justified to give Jax a paycheck and a platform and yada yada yada? No, I'm not saying that. But again, like it, it did shine a light on something that is not often shown. And and also, I think in a way Brittany's role in it as well. And I know, you know, nobody wants to really criticize Brittany. And I don't think she's fair to get criticized. But, you know, even just the texting back and forth and how that was sort of like endless. Well, it shows the like real reality of being in an abusive relationship, that it is a cycle that takes a lot to break free of that. It's not that you get there's abuse that happens and you're like, this is bad, so I'm going to leave. Like, that's not how abusive relationships work. Like, it is really hard to leave relationships like that. And you know, to Alex. Alex baskins like benefit that like, we don't know how much he really knew about how abusive that relationship was until this, like, final season. Um, because Britney herself says she's done a lot of protecting Jax and not being truthful or honest about his behavior and the things that he does, which is very normal when you're in an abusive relationship to protect your abuser and to be fair. Okay, so Jax goes to rehab, which was definitely like after the coffee table incident was the least they should have done, which maybe they should have done more. But in fairness, you know, if they had cut him off the show, what happens to Brittany's whole storyline? Like she wouldn't. It would have been really hard to tell Brittany's story without anything of Jax, right? It'll actually be interesting next season. Like how? And I think they let Jax dig his hole. Right. Like, I think they let him, like, show us that he is a narcissist and an abuser in the way that he, you know, as he's being called out for this thing, he defends himself, gets more aggressive, amps up like he dug his hole. And now it's like we there's no doubt that like him not showing up next season makes sense. I do think it's going to be interesting to see. I think he he can't be part so much part of the storyline if he's not there. I have to say him giving up his bar, um, was the only decision I think Jax made that I was like, okay, did he give it up or did they were they like, we don't want you anymore? I don't know, but there was no reason that that person should have had a bar with their name on it. I mean, in fairness, this bar is not even a real bar. It's like basically a corner and it's somebody else's bar. Well, his name on it was to attract business. Yeah, because they were like, this corner of this bar is not making much money. So let's add this name to this. And I'm sure it worked. Yeah. But I mean, I, I struggle to see that Jax is going to make meaningful change like everybody else I would. I mean, I would hope he he would though. I mean, for the sake of his child. But I don't know. Jax is real far gone. But again, like, how how is it would have been penalizing Brittany if they had just cut Jax off to like it'll be interesting next season. How do they deal with that? I mean, Brittany's going to have to have a separate life and actually that will be good for her. But I don't think that last summer they could have just said, Jax isn't your story anymore. I mean, she's got a kid with him and she's trying, and then she was gonna, like, show up in the midst of, like, this separation and all this craziness, and we're not going to talk about it. Like I think Alex Bass had to go. How it went. Yeah, he's getting a little bit of a bad, bad rep about it. Um, and and here's the thing. When you when you have a concept for show and you pull cameras up and you film for, I mean, especially for the Valley, it's like short span. I think it's only like six weeks or maybe two months. Oh, wow. You, you you get what you get, you know? Right. You can plan the events. You can plan what's going on. But this is their real lives. Like, now you want to say the producers are. It's a producer's fault that Brittany and Jax has been in a ten year abusive relationship, right? And if we cut off cameras, if if they had never come back on the valley, Brittany would still be married to Jax. I believe, actually, and I think that if she wasn't, she could be, like, dead. Yeah. Like, I think the cameras hold Jax accountable to, like, not become his darkest self. Um, because you like he knows they're bigger consequences with cameras watching than not. Well, and I think it's fair for the audience to say, I don't want this person on my TV. We're giving a platform to someone who is negative. But at the same time, I hope that they realize that we do need bringing this back to the Charlie of it all. We do need complicated characters. We do need quote unquote villains. We need people who are struggling in life. Um, could Charlie easily be Jackson ten years, maybe? Sure. Um, possibly reality TV cause that I don't I don't know. I don't know. I guess that's I think the central question of this podcast in general. Right. Like what is reality TV responsible for when showing people and when, you know, kind of like highlighting or like and I think it goes down to like even like the bigger question of like, you know, you work in this crime field, right? Like in the idea of, like all this true crime stuff, doesn't it kind of like glorify murder and glorify death and glorify, right? Like who's who are we really interested in the victim or the the killer? And that's something I'm struggling with. I mean, I don't really do serial killer. I don't really watch them I don't have interest in I don't really cover them. I'm more interested in sort of mysteries or unsolved things, but I'm struggling with that in my own career right now. Because, you know, when you reach out to these victims and you want them to tell their story and have a catharsis in that, you know, you also have to think, is this what's best for them? And I morally can't sleep at night if I'm just using someone to put a show on TV. And so, yeah, I mean, going back to what we always do at the end of our episodes, do you think reality TV is good for Charlie? Uh, is he good for reality TV? And, yeah. Is he going to be back? I mean, we want him back, so that's not really a question. Well, and I think what's what is true is that reality TV is an opportunity for people, and they get to decide what they're going to do with it. In a similar way that therapy can be an opportunity to, like, reflect on yourself. And what's amazing about reality TV is like, you'd like your the narrative is there, right? Like in therapy, you're having to reflect with your own lens of yourself. And so there's going to be like perception bias where like on the screen like, yeah, it's edited. There's you know, it's obviously not all like true. But like you're having to look back at yourself and you have an opportunity there to reflect on, like, why did I behave that way? Like and so for Charlie, this is like an opportunity for him to kind of like look at himself, even like I'm thinking to that scene where I don't was it Dylan who was like, Charlie invited me to a party and said there would be no, no adults. And like, I think about, like him saying that and then him having to reflect on like watching that and being like, why did I say no? Adults like, what is going on with me that like, I see certain people as adults and that's not how I see myself. And even the scene, the scene where he's making the joint, he's like, I don't want to look like this, but you are like this, so it could be very good for him. I also think it could be really good for his family. I'd be so interested to see how his dad took seeing himself on TV and where he went with that, because it could have been. It could have. He can look back and be like, oh shit, look at how I'm treating my son. And like what the outcomes of this could be. Um, but yeah, again, I think even it's similar to therapy in this way of like, you as the individual get to decide what you're going to do with that information, and are you going to use that as a moment to like, learn and grow, or are you going to double down on your protective defensive behaviors? And I don't think the producers are responsible for that. Well, it's really sad. Jack's kind of doubling down on his defense. Like that's not Alex Baskin's fault. That Jack's right. Like there's no producer that made him do that. That's him. Made him do a crap ton of cocaine, either. Um, but, yeah, I mean, I think one of the saddest things Charlie said in or he said it to his mom that he wanted more emotional support from his dad. His dad supports him financially. At twenty nine, most people don't have that. Let's just be clear. But he was like, I want more emotion. It was so sad because it was like, first of all, you're twenty nine and you're still going after that. You're going to be going after that for another twenty years. And he's clearly not capable. And well, it's interesting because he then plays that out with his friends where he wants that intimacy and emotional connection with them. But if anything gets dark, he self-sabotages and right like then creates like rejection towards them like he did with Georgia. And you know, he did have this moment where he went on like an apology tour with them, which was like, nice to see him, like trying to do that work. Um, but I still think again, he's he's so defended because of his dad. Right. Like, there's such like a fear that, like, people are going to abandon and reject and not love him. I think it's too early to tell if reality TV is good for him. I think another season and how he reacts to everything from first season will tell you that. Also, I guess react to his connection to these clearly toxic, criminal, toxic, uh, he's got a lot to reflect on. What do you think? A good job for Charlie would be. Oh my gosh. Um, because, you know, he needs a real job. According to his dad. I think he'll become a podcaster. Um, if he does, I hope he comes on this pod first. Um, he's very sensitive. Like there's a sensitivity to him. Yeah. Um, yeah. And there is like this. He is clearly charismatic and, like, is a people person because otherwise he wouldn't be able to, like, do all this, like, club promoting stuff and the Brandy Melville girls. Like there's something underlying that, that there is like some part of him that has like, charisma and like, you know, even to get on TV and like, be in these social circles. Um, I'm not sure I'll have to think about that. What do you think? I think it should be a manager of Brandy Melville. That's questionable, because he's kind of the pimp of Brandy Melville, and that's all. That's why it's an easy transition to just. He already has the connections. He knows the employees. He can run the books. I actually think he should stay away from Brandy Melville and the Box for a while. I don't think he should run a bar. Maybe he could take over Jackson's. No, no, I don't think he should run a bar. I don't know. I think he's he's sort of destined to never fully have employment. Maybe he's, like, secretly an artist. Yeah. I would like to see his paint things. Right. Like he comes from an artistic family, from his mom's side. He may or may with the skateboards. Yeah, he may or may not have been cooking crack in an air fryer. So he's inventive. Yeah. That's interesting. Um, well, we might need to do a Sheena podcast. That's where. Leave it. Uh, we appreciate everyone sticking with us. Is there any final thoughts on what we missed in the many months we were gone? Yeah, well, hopefully we can get back into, like, a routine of doing these again. Um, you know, bear with us, as our brains are still kind of, like, scrambled from postpartum hormones. So, Sam, thank you for coming on this journey with us today. Sam's got two, two children now. Two sons, two sons. I have two boys Is outnumbered. You're the three men in your house. We're only going to get testosterone over here is going to be testosterone. You might become the next Sheena. Male. Apologizer. Oh. Oh, boy. That. That only proves that we need to do a Sheena episode. All right, stay tuned. We're going to do a Sheena episode. It's happening. We love you guys. It's just skyrocketed to number one. We gotta. We gotta make sure Sam doesn't fall into the Sheena trap. Maybe you'll convince me to like Sheena. Goals. If you are a Sheena fan, write in. Because Sam convinced me. I'm open to being convinced. And I'm. I'm a low key Sheena fan. So we're gonna fight you. You love our problematic queens? Definitely. All right. Love you guys. We'll keep at it. See you next time. Bye.