Ep 125 Summer Series: The Africa Episode from museums in Cairo to seeking out the Big Five

Welcome to the first of our Summer Series!

This week, we’re taking you to Africa, a bucket list destination for those who want to see the Big Five or wander the pyramids of Giza.

First up, co-host Belle Jackson, a frequent visitor and former resident of Egypt in northeast Africa, takes you to the many museums, explains the best way to see the pyramids, and shares the top three things to do in Cairo.

Then we chat to Ivona Siniarska, founder of Take Off Go and Africa expert, who has visited 40 times about the best places to go on safari, where to start for first-timers, and how to ensure you’re travelling in a way that’s right by the wildlife. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:02

Welcome to the World Awaits.

SPEAKER_01: 0:04

Travel tales to inspire your wonderlust.

SPEAKER_02: 0:08

Hi there, I'm your host of The World Awaits, Cussi Bedford, and welcome to our summer series. We hope you're winding down from work or already at the beach or paulside somewhere. And for those in cooler climates, enjoy that white Christmas. Love to do that one, yeah. We want to send a big shout out this week to longtime listener Gary Honor. Gary, thank you so much for supporting the podcast and for your donation to our running costs through coffee.com. And you can support us at coffee, which is k o f I.com. And Belle and I will raise a glass for you, Gary, um, over Christmas period. So thank you so much for your support. This week we're taking you to Africa, a bucketless destination for those who want to see the big five or a multitude of other wildlife on safari. But first, let's wander through the pyramids of Giza and the many Egyptian museums with my co-host Belle Jackson, who's a frequent visitor to Egypt, who tells us her top three things to do in Cairo. This week I'm interviewing Belle about her recent trip to Cairo. Belle is a frequent traveler to this North African nation because she's actually married to an Egyptian, anyone that didn't know. Um, and she always finds a way to experience something new. So this trip wasn't any different. And so kick off Belle by telling us the best way to get there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

Do you know I'm just gonna make one point? Um I met my husband after I moved to Cairo. I didn't, I didn't go to Cairo because of him. Um, I was living in Cairo, learning Arabic, uh, working as a journalist, and then I met him. So everyone thinks, oh, you just took it on because he took on your husband. No, no. All right. The love affair started with the country, not the man. Um, but look, yeah, so it what it does mean is that I've got family back there, so we go back every year um and spend varying amounts of time. Normally we will fly through one of the Middle Eastern hubs, so whoever's got the best price between Qatar, Emirates, and Etehad, and then um jumping on from there. But this time, this year, we were booking late. We were booking in school holidays. So we had to get a bit creative because the cost of the airfares were absolutely punishing, of course. So we flew up to KL, up to Kuala Lumpur with Air Asia. Then we picked up an Emirates flight from that went up to Dubai and Cairo. And I mean, really, the because the point of this is that the leg as you get out of Australia, that that Australian leg is always phenomenally expensive. Once you're out of Australia, the fares drop. I mean, the the Emirates flight from Dubai and on to Cairo um is uh you know, is through the floor. So it was a little bit of a schlep, but it saved us about a thousand dollars on each ticket. So that is uh generally how I mean the best possible scenario is just flying Melbourne to Dubai, Dubai to Cairo. Um yeah, that's the most amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 3:05

So it's one of the world's largest cities. So tell us a bit about I mean, does it feel that way when you're there? Does it feel like really bustly and busy?

SPEAKER_01: 3:14

It is. Look, Cairo is big. It is actually mind-blowingly big. And I love this stat and I always share it. So Cairo, uh the entire Australia's entire population is the same size as Cairo's population, about 26 million, which um makes Cairo about the third or fourth largest, sorry, the fourth or fifth largest city in the world behind Tokyo, Delhi, and Shanghai. So what that means is the traffic is awful, like notoriously awful. And as a result, Egyptians are terrible timekeepers. Um you'd hate this, Kirsty, but you never know what it's gonna be like. So um, but it it it is it is vast. Like it takes, it takes, it can take easily take a couple of hours um to cross the city. I've been in traffic jams at one and two o'clock in the morning. I have to say, we were back in summer, and in summer the city actually empties out because it's it's bright, it's hot. So everybody nicks off to either the Mediterranean or the Red Sea. So you act so one of the benefits of being there in summer is that you've actually got much less congestion. But on an everyday working day, it is you really feel the size of that, uh the size of that city. And it ranges from, you know, you've got the pyramids at one side of it, you've got medieval Cairo in the middle, and then you've got um New Cairo, which is um, you know, because Cairo is a lot like Delhi in that you have different levels, different tiers of wealth from, you know, extreme poverty to extreme um wealth. So, you know, you do have those beautiful new um parts of the city that are being built that that I personally actually don't like spending a lot of time at because it's kind of like going to a shopping mall in Australia. So just more dancing fountains and um that and that sort of thing. But yeah, so so it does have all of those different layers. It does have a very um upmarket modern section as well as those fabulous historical sections.

SPEAKER_02: 5:14

And besides um, yeah, obviously sort of having that juxtaposition and going uh amazing experience of seeing that really extreme uh variation. Um, what are some of the other things, or what are the things as sort of as an insider, what are some of the things that you just if I was gonna go there that you would be like, you okay, these are like three things that you absolutely have to do.

SPEAKER_01: 5:37

Three things. Oh gosh. If you're going in summer, you have to drink all the mango juice because I am obsessed with fresh mango juice. That is the that is the essential. Whatever you do, you've got to drink mango juice while you're doing it because the mangoes in the mangoes are phenomenal in Egypt, not like anywhere else in the world. So, right, okay, so fueled up on mango juice. I mean, the reason why everybody goes to Cairo is of course for the pyramids, the great pyramids of Giza. Giza was a separate city and it's now just turning into this big, gigantic mush of of of Cairo. Um, so they sit on the outskirts of the city, which is kind of weird because in the time that I've been traveling there over the last sort of nearly two decades, you're finding that the city is encroaching and almost encircling parts of the pyramids. So um, like there's new, those new developments that I've mentioned, they'll have names like Pyramids View, you know, like a building estate or something like that, or you know, which is like, you're right, you can you'll go and have a look at the pyramids out in your backyard, you know. So um, which is fun, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02: 6:42

Can they and do they literally have views of the pyramids?

SPEAKER_01: 6:45

Obviously, if they're that there are there are places that look onto the pyramids, like there's residential areas that look onto the pyramids. The older ones um around one side that um traditionally were quite a slum area, and that's where you go to rent your um camels and carriages and uh and horses as well, because one of the great things to do is to actually um hire a horse and ride around the pyramids, and we used to do it at night. It is not safe. Can I say don't gallop through the through the desert at night around the pyramids? Because when you do it in daytime, you think, oh my goodness, I could have killed myself. But it is an exhilarating thing to do is to ride around the pyramids. That side of it, people are from some of the lowest socioeconomic uh stratas of of Cairian life, and they look at the pyramids, phenomenal. That is being bulldozed and being built out now, and you're seeing a lot more development in that in that area. So um you have three things to go to the pyramids, uh to go to Cairo, I would say pyramids. Uh, I would put uh Shahra el Moez, which is um medieval Cairo, and I'll come back to that a little later on, and then the museums, because the museums are intrinsically um connected to how you understand and interpret the country.

SPEAKER_02: 8:02

Amazing. And so on those museums, let's just talk about them. So the Grand Egyptian Museum or Gem, everyone, I mean, we've been hearing about this for so, so, so long. Um, and about how how, you know, when it's going to be opening and what's going on in there and and um and what's in there, really. So um, what's happening was that well, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 8:23

I mean, look, 20 years it's been going on from the time they started planning the site for the Grand Egyptian Museum. So many things have happened that it's that it's been delayed. You know, they've run out of money, they've had different countries, like Japan has sunk a lot of money into it. Um, the first time I did a tour, like the I've been there three times now, and the first two times they were both hard hat sites. So, like, you know, you had to put a hard hat on before you went in um to explore it. It um officially was supposed to open the first week I was in Cairo on the 5th of July, and um serendipitously I thought, fantastic, I'm gonna be there during the opening. And then it got paused yet again. Like there's been so many times this has happened. This time is because, of course, the ongoing um war in Gaza. So, you know, this is this when it is when it is officially going to be opened, it's um the world's largest collection of Egyptian artifacts. Um and it is would it is also the world's largest archaeological museum. So the of course the Egyptian government wanted to open it with all of the pomp and glamour that you would expect. They wanted to invite, be able to invite heads of states um from all over the world because you know the ancient Egyptian artifacts have so many connections with things like the British Museum, which has quite a significant holding, and then of course in New York as well. But who's gonna go there at the moment when you know there's bombing happening in the country next door? So they postponed it until um it is another one of those casualties of that uh that war in in uh between Israel and Palestine. So um it's physically finished, everything is up and running. Um I did go in and check out what was going on. The two things that are not going to be shown and is not going to happen until uh until it's officially opened, is the artifacts of um the of Tutan Chamun, which is um, you know, his lavish coffin, his his death mask, his pure gold death masks, his little finger covers, you know, all of the phenomenal jewellery in that cache when it was discovered a hundred years ago. Um and the other thing is the uh solar boat of chops, which used to live beside the Sphinx. Um so they haven't opened yet, but the rest of the museum is is all open and it's just beautiful. Like it's honestly absolutely beautiful. If you have been to Egypt before, of course, everybody always went to the Grand Egyptian, to the original Egyptian museum, which is a gorgeous old pink building um in the center of in the center of Cairo, that everybody's gone there. What I did notice going back to do a recce for you, Kirstie, was oh my god, there's no air con still. So it is like phenomenally hot in that in that museum. And also it has always had a real problem with uh being curated because it's I've always said it's like an iceberg, nine-tenths of what the museum holds is is down in the basement and hasn't been brought out to show the light of day for you know for a hundred years. And what is up is often very poorly explained. The Grand Egyptian Museum, the new museum, is beautiful, the explanation is gorgeous, it's got loads of interactive stuff, which is great for engaging kids in there as well. Um, it's a it's a wholly modern, completely beautiful building, and it's a delight. But what it is part of, and this is what makes it also so significant, is it is part of a pyramids precinct. So it's only as the crow flies, two kilometres from from the um from the pyramids. And eventually, and you can see it being constructed, there will be a walkway between the two. And from what I'd heard from some of the architects years ago, there was going to be an underground, a subterranean walkway and shopping malls and stuff. Because who are you if you don't like a shopping mall? And I've got to say, Egyptians do love a good shop. So um eventually what you will have is um you'll have the the pyramids which themselves are undergoing significant change that uh that that um Grand Egyptian Museum, you'll be able to walk or ride between the two of them, and all of the services that are being uh built around it, and that means things like new hotels are cropping up everywhere, they're clearing out a lot of the slums, not necessarily a great thing, it depends on who you are. Of course, the people who are living in those slum areas pretty much don't want to get cleared out of where they are. But um, you know, that has been one of the one of the problems that people have always said love seeing the pyramids, hate being chased by the camel touts, because as the old question goes, it's free to get on a camel. The question is, how much does it cost to get off? So um, yeah, because nobody wants to be sitting on the top of a camel and then having to haggle for the price to get down again. So, yeah. So when you go into the pyramids themselves now, what you will notice is that there are new gates as well. Um, the horses and camels are still there, but they've been moved away into another area. Um, and they're really cracking down on that sort of, you know, that touting for trade as well. There are um two main new restaurants. Well, nine pyramids has been there for a couple of years. And um, the first time I went, uh, I think about two years ago, um, it's low slung, it's around the back of the pyramids in an area that you pretty much wouldn't go to normally. What it does have is a view of the nine pyramids, uh the pyramids of Gizzy, because you've got the three big ones, you've got the Queens, you've got in total, there are nine there, and that's why it's got that name. Really beautiful place to go. Um, in the summer, you would go in there for breakfast and just watch, you know, watch the land and the changing colour as the sun, you know, really takes off over the pyramids. And it's absolutely beautiful place to sit and eat. And the other is called Kufu, named after the greatest, the largest of the pyramids. And and I I've eaten lunch there before. I would recommend eating breakfast. Phenomenal. Like you are sitting there in front of the grand pyramid. And yes, a lot of tourists go, also a lot of Egyptians go as well. You do still need to buy your ticket into the into the um the pyramids complex, and then you can jump on an e-bus. Like there's now they're they're trying to make it a greener possibility. So they've got um electric buses that run in a new hop-on-hop-off circuit that goes around. So you've got the Sphinx to the different of the pyramids. Um and uh yeah, so that's really changing how we are interacting um with the pyramids as well, in it it preserving it, but also um uh giving a better experience for travelers.

SPEAKER_02: 15:20

Okay, so Belle, let's just clarify what are your top three things to do in Cairo?

SPEAKER_01: 15:27

Yeah, look, um okay, I did want to add a couple of things to my top three. So it's not really a top three, but you know, um stay with me, especially regarding the museums you can visit in Cairo because they're so important. So we've already covered off the Grand Egyptian Museum and the original Egyptian museum, but the other significant new opening or newish opening is the rather clumsily named National Museum of Egyptian Civilization. So if you are looking for the golden mummies, this is where you're going to find them. It's a new build that opened in 2022 near the Citadel. And here you'll find the twelve the 20 mummies, including Ramses II. This is the guy that built the Colossi or the giant statues of himself at Abu Simbel, amongst other places, and the female, the first female pharaoh queen hatchet suit. So that is a phenomenal museum. It's absolutely beautiful and well worth a couple of hours in there, and it's not overwhelming as well. And the others on my top three things to visit would include a walk through Coptic Cairo, and this is the birthplace of Christianity in Egypt, which still has about a 15% of the population is Coptic Christian. So here you wander through these tiny mazes, and beneath a tiny, tiny church is a place where the holy family is said to have sheltered on their flight to Egypt. Uh so um it's just an amazing little microcosm in its in its own right and absolutely densely packed. It's a neighborhood densely packed with churches, and there's a couple of museums and just this tiny little labyrinth. It's it's really um Coptic Cairo is fabulous. And the third thing that I mentioned uh earlier and didn't go back to, which I put on my list, is an afternoon and an evening walk in Shara El Muez or El Muez Street, which is right beside the Carnocalili market. So El Muez is the main thoroughfare of medieval Cairo. So you're walking between these thousand-year-old palaces and hospitals, schools and mansions. I would go in the afternoon, as entrance to those mansions and palaces, closes at 4 p.m. And then after that, I go up to one of the rooftop mango uh cafes for a cold mango juice because essential, and wait because at dusk, all those monuments are flooded with coloured lights for one of the most beautiful displays in the city. So a walk through here is absolutely unmissable.

SPEAKER_02: 17:50

Amazing. And uh so just on a like, you know, a day-to-day basis when you're um when you're cruising around, how how you are you back to our old Uber friends? Are you obviously not leaving your mobile phones and Ubers, but what are you doing? Are you getting the Ubers around or how are you what's the mode of transport given? I mean, obviously, I don't know how uh uh if Uber would be a great option given the traffic that you mentioned.

SPEAKER_01: 18:15

I know, yeah. Well, look, there is a massive metro scheme you'll see across Cairo being built, which eventually will link up with the airport with um key destinations. There's also a metro station right opposite the Grand Egyptian Museum, and that is going to be phenomenal because that is that's built, you'll just see these metro towers. It's going to be a um, what do you call them? Like with an above, uh, an above-ground metro system. And that is going to be linking the whole of Cairo up over the next few years. And when that happens, it's going to be great. There is already a metro train system that runs um that is very heavily used. But um, so you know, you can use that as a tourist. I was using Ubers, um, I don't use the taxis anymore. They um there was, you know, they they're really not that safe, I don't think. Um, not for, I mean, I travel a lot of the time. I'm on my own, like I'm I'm solo when I do a lot of my exploring. Um, so I do use Uber in Cairo. It's also got DD runs there as well. Um, so what it means is you can simply use your regular account. So there's no mucking around with foreign currency, you know, using your credit card or anything like that. You just pay through the app, like you normally do at home. Um, it is phenomenally cheap. So my cities, my trips across the city, you know, which might I might be like 45 minutes in across never more than a few dollars, and always tipping the drivers um not in the app, but outside the app. So a cash tip is um is preferred because people are really doing it tough in Cairo. Um at the moment, in the whole of Egypt at the moment.

SPEAKER_02: 19:48

So um, lastly, tell us a bit about the rating on Smart Traveler and also um, I mean, you know, outside of Smart Traveller, what how uh safe it sort of feels to be. You know, to be, I mean, obviously for you, it's a bit of a different experience because you have family there and um, you know, you you know you know the area really well. But um for people who are wanting to go right now, is it something you would suggest and is it is it an is it an option?

SPEAKER_01: 20:16

Yeah, the um the rating for the smart traveler rating for uh Cairo and the Nile all the way down to Lokso, Aswan, Abusumbel, so the main tourist areas, is at level two, which is exercised exercise a high degree of caution, which is the same as France, can I point out? Um it actually the US just dropped their travel warnings against uh Egypt again uh just recently as well. So there are some areas like North Sinai, which is on the border of Gaza and Israel, is of course a total red zone, a no-go zone. But honestly, you know, it's it would be rare that you would have um tourists going there anyway. So um you would stay well away from those areas. Um look, I I had no dramas. I mean, Egyptians are devastated by what's happening in the country next door. You know, they've been taking Palestinian refugees since 1948. So, and um, you know, so they are well aware of happening of, you know, of what's happening there. But um look, the thing that Egypt relies on uh for its foreign income, there's two things. The first one is the Suez Canal. Um hello, Houthi Revels. Can I say, you know, this is such an important um revenue raiser for them. It's the connector between Europe and Asia. And I'm sure that there are listeners who have cruised through the sewers. So that's not really doing uh a whole lot um for it. The second highest earner of foreign income in Egypt is um tourism. And nothing kills tourism faster than a war. So it sounds, you know, ridiculous putting tourism and and war into the same sentence. But tourism is what feeds one in ten Egyptians, so yeah, it's not great for them at the moment. And look, I have to say, Egyptians are very aware of this. You know, they they they appreciate the tourism industry, they genuinely love tourists. I was walking into Hanakalili, which is the fabulous medieval souk um 700-year-old market that that is just it's just so it's like a labyrinth, it's a warren. It's I just love going in there and drinking tea and just seeing the you know, the crazy nephrititi heads and you know, the little belly dancers outfits that you can buy. Because, you know, there's always going to be some guy that pulls out the the racy lacy red one and says, Madam, you need to buy this. And I'm like, I really, really don't. Um, but yeah, so I was walking into Kano Khalili the other day, and um, and this woman says, Oh, welcome to Egypt. She said in Arabic, Welcome, welcome to Egypt. We missed you, and all that, oh, I miss you too. And sometimes you just like you'll just have a woman run up to you and start kissing you on your cheeks, especially after the revolution when there was almost no tourists there and the country was really suffering. They would women would just come up and give you big smackers on the cheeks and say, Thank you for coming. And she's just like, oh, gorgeous. I mean, seriously, the pleasure is all mine. So, you know, they've had hard times, but while while this, you know, while this war continues in Israel, they're going to continue having hard times. But it's really lovely to really feel so welcomed and um and I do feel safe when I'm when I'm traveling there, even you know, before I understood it so much as I did. Yeah. I think there is a genuine concept of Arabian hospitality that is still existent in Egypt.

SPEAKER_02: 23:27

Amazing. I love that story. Thanks so much for your insights, uh Belle, into Cairo. And you can see more on Belle's website, which is globalselsa.com, and we'll put a link to her website and Instagram in the show notes, and also on our website, which is theworld awaits.au. Next up, we're going from the north to the south of Africa as I chat with Ivona Sheriaska, managing director of travel consultancy Takeoff Go, who has been to Africa 40 times about the best places to go, where to start for first timers, and how to ensure you're traveling in a way that's right by the wildlife. Welcome to the show, Ivana. Hi, how are you? It's so great to have you on The World of Weights. Um, let's start by tell us a little bit about how you came to get into the travel industry.

SPEAKER_00: 24:14

Um, of course. Yes, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I came, I think travel is a little bit always in who I am and who how I grew up. We were we immigrated to Canada and when we could spent a lot of time traveling back to Europe, to Poland, where I was born. And a lot of that involved cost savings and find finding the cheapest point of entry. So we would fly into Amsterdam, Paris, and then make our way over to Poland. So travel was always kind of who I was growing up. And I was in a different industry. I was in the music industry, and then that that um was put on pause because the company I worked for got bought out by a big record label. And I went back to bartending, which is great money in North America and spent a lot of my time working, and then from um anything that I effectively made from tips I would spend to go travel. I applied once upon a time for a travel job and they told me I didn't have enough sales experience. And then so I just kept bartending and then traveling once every three, four weeks around Caribbean, Central America, South America, because I was living in Toronto and that was very close. Um, then from there, I I think it was January or February, it was minus 30 degrees outside, and I was serving a table of suits. Um, I was quite tanned, beachy, you know, summer clearly came back from the tropics and they asked me about my 10. And I basically said to them that, oh, you know, I just came back from, I think it was Cuba or Jamaica or somewhere, and spoke a little bit about that. And it, and they asked, you know, made a comment about how I'm excited and passionate about travel and yada, yada, yada. Um, long story short, they ended up being a group of executives from Flight Center and was kind of prompted then to apply again and and more or less come in for an interview. Um and I couldn't because I was leaving to China, which then I think cemented the fact that I travel quite a bit. Um, but I ended up interviewing as soon as I got back and starting three days later. And then the rest is history. I've worked kind of in Canada and in briefly for some contracts in the UK, and then in the last 12 years in Australia.

SPEAKER_02: 26:31

Amazing. Gosh, yes. And like, you know, we were saying earlier, it's all about the love of travel, right? That's why we're in it. So um, was it what is it about the uh safaris that has made you a specialist in that area? And um, and what makes you keep wanting to go back on safari?

SPEAKER_00: 26:47

Well, um, well, I love the world. And then safaris was kind of always on the list, but not necessarily just safaris. In 2010, there was meant to be a Global Achievers Award in South Africa, which I had qualified for, but a few months out they changed it because of conflict with the World Cup. And I decided I was going to continue to travel anyways, um, and came and spent what was meant to be three months in Africa, ended up being about nine, fell in love with it, um, traveling through all of East Africa, Southern Africa, and it really just brought me at the time, I suppose, and and every single time thereafter, it brought me peace. There's there's something about being here in Africa and all of it, which is really hard to generalize a continent because you wouldn't do it anywhere else. Um, but there's a level of humanity here. Um, and that that's just from kind of the people that I absolutely love, which brings me back. But also in the safari space, there's something about driving out that it's you become the truest form of yourself. So I I always say to people, um, I keep coming back for the people, the place, which is just the natural mother nature and her beauty, um, the peace that it brings, because it just settles all of your thoughts. You you very much are left with a point of reflection when you're, you know, staring out from a vehicle into a pride of lions or or elephants or an impala in a tree. Um, and then the perspective. And I think every single time I come here, that that reflection just keeps me coming back over and over and over again because you really do when you're surrounded by wildlife, there's nothing else that you can think of other than how small and insignificant some of our problems can be. And so it really kind of just recenters you and helps you, I suppose, find yourself again and find that peace. Not to to say that I need it, but it it really kind of just reaffirms um who I am each and every single time I'm here. Um, plus it's it's just incredible. Like being out in the bush, the smell in the morning, the dust settling over the sunrise. Um it's incredible. Just driving out the noises you hear at night. I slept in Johannesburg last night and it was the first silent sleep I've had in two weeks because I've been out in the bush. So in the middle of the night in the bush, you might hear hippos grazing outside of your tent. You might hear um alarm calls off in the distance, or elephants, and there's just something about it that's that's it gets under your skin. And most people who have been to Africa will tell you the same thing. There's just something about Africa that the moment you set foot here, you feel like you belong. And as soon as you leave, that you're just left with this overwhelming desire to return.

SPEAKER_02: 29:42

Amazing. And what do you think are sort of the things that most people um, you know, want to see? I mean, obviously the big five, but do most people that come to you, you know, because you're based in Melbourne, obviously, and uh well, and all and obviously that you you are are assisting um travel luxury travelers and travelers from all over Australia, but are they mostly coming to you saying, I want to go to Africa because I want to see the big five? Or are there other reasons? Uh I mean, that would be the primary reason, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:13

It's it's a mixture. Some some, yes, um, they they come to us because, or to me specifically, because they want to see the big five. Um, I kind of never really stop talking about Africa, and everyone who knows me knows that I'm here as often as I possibly can be. And so usually what happens is if anybody remotely mentions Africa in conversation, somebody will be like, you have to speak to Ivana. Some people come to me and and they, you know, they know exactly what they want to see. They have seen documentaries about Nagorangoro Crater and want to do East Africa, see the migration, the big five safaris. Some people come with a very, very, I suppose, clean slate and just say Africa's on their bucket list, they don't really know where or how um or or which part to see. And I think that's where the magic happens. Um, we spend a lot of time getting to know the guests that we send to Africa. Um, you know, if somebody emails me and they just want this, this, and this and this, I'm very, very reluctant to ever just confirm that booking. I believe every experience in Africa can be personalized. So spend a lot of time getting to know the individual, their likes, their dislikes. Ideally, it's a face-to-face coffee or lunch catch-up, even better if it's a glass of wine. At the very least, a long phone call and Zoom because it can be catered so specifically to each individual, even down to the camps that we used to send people. Um it really just depends. I think there's a lot of Africa to cover. Um, East Africa is very different to Southern Africa. And in the last few years, we've had these amazing nature documentaries on Netflix, you know, BBC, the planet Earth, where it highlights various parts of it. So I think some guests don't necessarily know how much of it can be combined or how much of it can be focused on one destination. I've just had 10 10 nights in Zambia. Um, you can do Zambia alone for for 10, 15 nights, or you can combine Zambia on a 15-night Southern Africa itinerary. So a lot of it is getting to know the guests what they want, but then also personalizing every single trip. Because no two trips are the same to Africa, no two days are the same in Africa, no two drives are the same. And the more you can cater that experience to what that person wants, will you see the big five, with the exception of a few places where rhino might be a scarcity? That's a polite word, where rhino may no longer exist because of poaching. Um, the other four are relatively, I mean, they're in existence. So whether or not you see them, leopards are elusive, you know, those ones tend to be the hardest, but but there are reserves where the concentration of game are higher, you're more likely to see them. You would never guarantee anything. Um, but you can kind of rest easy, knowing that that if somebody specifically their favorite animal is a leopard, I would probably send them to, you know, South Luangwa in in Zambia has the highest concentration of leopard in the world or sabi sand. So there's places that an African specialist will be able to cater to the specific guests, depending if they're focused on specifically seeing an animal, if they want human aspect of it. Some people want to interact with villages, see the Maasai, see the Bhmen of the Kalarhari, there's the Himba tribes of Namibia. There's, I mean, it's endless experiences you can offer in Africa. So it's really getting to know the guests and what what they are off after to ensure that what we are putting together tailors to them and is their once-in-a-lifetime trip. And I use air quotes, which you won't be able to see on a podcast, um, because it there's no such thing as a once-in-a-lifetime trip. Everybody comes back and and and says they want to go back, they'll get back there. I had a couple who returned, I think I mentioned this to you last time. Their once-in-a-lifetime trip was in 2013, and they've come back from their ninth trip. So people do return over and over and over again because all of the reasons I've mentioned, um, so yes, you can have your first trip to see the safaris and the animals and perhaps the big five, or they want to see the winelands, or you know, Table Mountain, or Kilomanjoro. Um, but there's something about the the region as a whole that brings people back.

SPEAKER_02: 34:51

Amazing. My gosh, yes, you you you're selling it very well. So um and and I guess this then uh sort of leads uh uh into that whole issue, right? Of so many people and a lot of people wanting to go. And there have been a lot of unfortunately images out there of like wildlife surrounded by trucks. So like, you know, 10, 10 or 15 trucks and like dozens and dozens of people surrounding, you know, just a few, just a few animals.

SPEAKER_00: 35:22

That neighbor or private concessions within where it does limit the vehicle, but in Serengeti, Masaymara's the majority of the park is public. So everybody traverses the same main road, which often means and it exists in southern Africa as well. But to speak of the footage, I think it was Nick Lear, who's a guide who posted the first one, which is the one that went viral. If somebody sees something, they stop, which then means another vehicle stops and then another vehicle stops. So yes, you can have these incredibly immersive, intimate experiences where it's just yourself, your one vehicle, or maybe one other vehicle from your camp next to a pride of lions. A lot of the footage we've been seeing is dozens and dozens of vehicles. The which sometimes is is just the way it is, and that's fine. I think the biggest thing is we're working with with properties and with gods who still respect the natural and understand animal animals' behavior, can read if the animal's becoming stressed. They won't surround it from you know all angles. The animal should always have an exit point, should they not wish to be closer to the vehicles. The if you're in a game vehicle, the wild animal, whether it be a leopard, a cheetah, a lion, um, a buffalo, an elephant, it does see you as one main object. So if there's a lot of big objects, you're very safe in your vehicle. If there's a lot of these big objects that they see that are obstructing their roads, usually what they'll do is they'll just find a way to traverse somewhere else or walk around it. Um, you know, I've often have leopards walking by the vehicle, and we're not disturbing them because the guides and the properties in the camps that we work with know how to read their behavior. So rather than stopping the car directly in front of them, they'll see the leopard 200 meters away, can figure out the path it's going to take, and we'll just stop the vehicle and you get to witness this beautiful, majestic, regal creature walking at you from 200 meters away past you and onwards. And that's where you realize we, you know, we're we're guests in their kingdom. Where it gets tricky is a lot of places have guides where, you know, they just their guests might just offer them money, tips, etc. To nope, they want the shot, they want the shot, go closer, go closer, and that becomes an an area of contention. And unfortunately, you know, this part of the world is beautiful and the people are amazing, is also known for a little bit of corruption. So the, you know, that footage that we saw of people, it wasn't just the vehicles. The shocking part about it was that there was people outside of the vehicles standing on the banks of the river while the migration of the wildebeest is trying to cross effectively in search of greener pastures. They're trying to get out of the water and they can't even make it up to the embankment because it's not just vehicles that are blocking their migration routes, which are millennia-old. It's people out of the vehicles, which is stupid. Like it's absolutely stupid. It's not just endangering the animal, which might then force it to go back into these crocodile-infested waters. It's endangering themselves. If there's that much welder bees, there is predators around. If you're standing outside of the vehicles, like it's I it was shocking footage in our industry. Like I'm so beyond words. Because how on earth you would A, let your guests out of a vehicle, B, have that many vehicles on their route, but C also just endanger your own lives as a guest to get to get a photo. It's it's an absolute blessing and relief that nothing happened to a single human in all of it. The impact on the wildlife is atrocious, but it's just silly. And then to have seen it three weeks or four weeks later, on the same thing happening on the Kenyan side. It's yeah, I'm ugh. Angry words. Um, but the issue is it's every so a lot of people on their bucket list have the great migration because they see these amazing, amazing um, you know, Attenborough, BBC, wildlife documentaries where it's hundreds of thousands of wildebeests crossing the the river all at once. And so uh many guests tend to congregate to these areas in July and August, where because the river serpents, it's the highest likeliness that you will see the river crossings. What people don't understand is sometimes you will sit on that same spot by the river for a week and not a single animal will cross. Wildebees have been doing this circular clockwise migrations for centuries. Um Which is why they always have similar crossing paths. And while they have evolved to know which way to go and search in greener pastures and have the same paths and routes that they take, they're also not the smartest animal. So they'll go up to the water water, sniff it, come back out. So waiting for a migration to cross could take hours. You know, sometimes they'll go in, then they'll come back. Sometimes they'll go in, be chased by a crocodile, go back out, and then eventually still try to cross. It's it is the greatest show on earth. It's extraordinary if you get to see it, but it attracts so many people who then crowd and wait and see it and s and wait for this glimpse of something that may or may not happen, which attracts so many vehicles. So along the banks of the river, every single year in July and August, you just have permanently placed vehicles. Many are professional photographers, many are guests. Majority of these guests, photographers, guides do the right thing. They stay further back. They're in these areas, though. You can have day trippers, self-drivers from some of the local cities, or you can have freelance guides who, you know, will take a group of guests and come in. So while the professional guides, everyone's a professional guide, but while the main lodges who respect the animals may be back from the embankment, giving these animals space, what happens is more and more vehicles congregate and then it just becomes overwhelming, full of vehicles. The footage that you see with hundreds of vehicles, people get out for our I the still the people getting out is beyond me, but people want a better shot. They get out. Many guests spend a lot of money to come to these regions for this shot. I would never risk my life for a photo, but we are we're living in the day and age of social media where, you know, whatever photo makes you more viral. It's it's strange. Combat that, you know, it's in Kenya, for instance, the Masay Mara has put up their park fees. It's 200 US per day. Um, yet everybody wants to come. And so you're still getting this amount of vehicles. The pro, I think working with an African specialist, what you can tell people is that you can still go see animals sealed, right? While you may not necessarily ever guarantee a river crossing, you can still go to these regions. You can see the savannas, the open plains, you can see, see the beauty of that region, but stay in private conservations, in in the concessions where they limit the amount of vehicles, where the land is leased from the Maasai, for instance, and they build their lodges to work with the Maasai so that they understand the value of tourism and giving back to the community. And there it limits the vehicles. So you guys respect each other. You know, if it's leopard cubs or line cubs, sometimes you may only have one vehicle there to ensure that that cub is slowly being introduced to vehicles rather than 20 vehicles all at once. And then most of those private reserves will then limit any vehicle siding to three vehicles to kind of treat Mother Nature as as we are there, as a guest rather than congregate. But with mass tourism in these areas, there will, it's shocking this year, um, but there will always be a congregation and a large volume of vehicles. It exists in Southern Africa as well. Everybody thinks of the Kruger, Kruger National Park is very similar. You're stuck to the main road. Anyone can come in and there's lodges within Kruger, there's campsites, self-camping, self-drives. You get a lot of vehicles. There's the greater Kruger region has. But dozens of private game reserves where there's no fences between them. The animals roam freely, but it's similarly, you can go off-road, three vehicles per sighting, and it's a very different relationship with Mother Nature where you're respecting, you're letting the bush grow back, you're letting the shrubs go back, the animals can interact. We had a great guide the other day with time and tide in South Luango. There was a leopard up in a tree, which is for most people an iconic, you know, tick, take a photo of a leopard in a tree, um, I guess, checklist, bucket list item. And South Luango is a national park, so there they don't limit the vehicles. Our guide was fantastic. George decided to stay back because he didn't feel right about it. There was already six vehicles there. The leopard needs to be able to see what it's hunting, needs to be able to jump down easily and step away. And it was one of every single one in our vehicle was so relieved because we don't want to overwhelm that that cat. And we went 300 meters later, um, further, and that's where we waited. And Lucy the leopard walked by our vehicle. So a lot of it is working with camps, with lodges, with guides who respect animals, respect their natural habitat, and won't do anything for their guests' photo, um, which sometimes is disappointing to the guests. But I think the onus is on us to also give people very realistic expectations as to what you may or may not see, but also emphasize the value of their lives, of the lives of these animals. If animals become too habituated and they start coming into camp or jumping into vehicles, eventually they will have to be put down. And nobody wants that. So education is a very key part of the consulting process for anyone who sells Africa. And that's part another reason why it's, you know, it's no two itineraries are the same. Some guests might feel very, very, you know, very apprehensive about being close to an animal on a feed, on a kilt. Um, other guests want to see it all. So it's just kind of setting those realistic expectations. And and the guides are I've never had a bad guide because I work with the right properties, but the guides are absolutely incredible at um reading our behavior as guests, not just at the animals, but our behavior as guests to ensure that we are comfortable. The last thing you want to do is have a guest scream or act out. Um, if if a line does get too close, so it's guides are really, really good at gauging, and it's safety first for everyone: animal safety, human safety, guest safety, their own safety. Um, you know, we can see a lone bull elephant, and while it looks amazing and people want to see it closer, the guides will know that no, he's in must. We need to get away as quickly as possible. So working with the right camps, the right guides is key. I would be very, very reluctant. I've been 40 times and I would still never self-drive. So I think, yes, there's a lot of over tourism, and people do think it's accessible and the beauty of you know AI, you can plan these things online, but it where are you compromising your safety if you're trying to do it yourself or cut corners or be closer to the animals?

SPEAKER_02: 46:51

Yeah, wow, that's so insightful and interesting. And and really, like you said, it comes down to making sure that you you you understand and you and you're doing your research and you and you're going through experts, so you're actually um working with the most responsible um operators in regards to ensuring because otherwise we, you know, like you said, I mean, even if they increase the costs, it's not having an impact on on the overtourism. So the reality is at the end of the day, uh, you know, we we don't want to all risk actually losing the opportunity altogether. What um what what are some of your would your tips be then for what are just a couple of top tips for people who who have never been before, who who would who would say come to you and say, I really want to experience um the local people, um, you know, some wildlife and uh and and a really nice sort of safari, comfortable sort of maybe slightly luxe um safari experience. What would your what would your tops be for top top tips be for someone who was considering that?

SPEAKER_00: 47:55

I think from a guest's perspective, um, you know, in in in I suppose the comfortable luxury space, the it's endless. The service levels in Africa are unparalleled anywhere else. The lodges are unbelievable. Some of them have five rooms, some have maximum 12. So there's the exclusivity and comfort levels do exist. From a guest perspective, it's making sure you're speaking to somebody, an agent, a specialist, and being as honest and asking all the questions you want. Um, you know, there's no such thing as a silly question. We we've been here, most of us have been here endless times, which is why it's become such a passion. So asking so that you are understanding on what you're experiencing or expecting when you arrive is great. And asking the guides the question. Guides are full of information. I learn something new every single day when I'm here. So I think, you know, if you want to see the gorillas, be honest. Say you might have mobility issues. And then we can say, okay, well, you know, gorilla trekking is amazing. In Rwanda, shorter hikes, but higher altitude. In Uganda, longer heights, lower altitude. And so, really, kind of the more open a guest or an agent is about the the traveler, the more that the itinerary can really be curated to not just their wants and what they want to see, but their needs and their comfort level. And then from a safari point of view, I mean it's mixed it up. Like Zambia is is eaten. It's it's amazing. Don't necessarily think that because you see Kenya, Tanzania on nature docks that that's the most amount of animals. Um Lower Zambezi National Park, where I was just was unbelievable. The I stopped counting elephants because every single photo we took was surrounded by elephants, babies, all the animals. So I think it's be open to new destinations, especially if if there's um, you know, time of year constraints or or you want more value out of your money, but also take the guidance. If if the more forthcoming people are with information, the better the guidance can be from us and you know, East Africa, Kenya, comfort levels may not be the same for one guest as they might be for another. And we can really kind of tailor if Madagascar, if Namibia, if Botswana, if Kenya, Zambia are the right fit for that guest.

SPEAKER_02: 50:10

Yeah, great advice. Um, and um, we're running out of time, but I'm gonna quickly ask you what's your favorite safari destination and why?

SPEAKER_00: 50:19

I don't know that I have one, and everybody asks me this. I mean, this these these last nine nights that I had in Zambia completely blew my mind, and I want to return. Already I'm like, when can I come back? Um, Botswana is very special as well because because it's it's Botswana and that's what's all on all the nature docs, but Zambia has the water activities as well. There's something about the lower, um, the greater Kruger area. I love Sabi Sand. Love Sabi Sand. Um, I've stayed. Dulini is actually the only camp I've ever returned to in all of these years of traveling to, because it's I just loved it so much. But then you have fantastic properties in the southern part of Sabi Sand where the service is just you leave feeling like family. So that's where I send all of my guests. Um, you know, Lion Lion Sands is that whole concession is private. It's amazing. I don't know, but then Tanzania, especially I really don't know. I don't have a favorite destination so long as I'm out in the bush. I am happy out in the bush, you know, surrounded by wildlife, the the the suntorched earth, the smell in the air, the there's turtle, cake turtled doves make this noise that I don't know how to mimic, but you hear it when you're driving through. And that for me is peace, and it's my happy place. So I don't, I don't really know that I have a favorite. So long as I'm in the bush, it's my favorite.

SPEAKER_02: 51:37

Amazing. Well, look, I have to ask you the last question we ask all of our guests, which is what's the most bizarre thing that's ever happened to you on your travels?

SPEAKER_00: 51:45

Years ago now, maybe in 2013, I was in Madagascar, um, which is amazing. It's it's it's it's a whole other continent, really. I mean, it's part of Africa, but it could be its whole other continent just because of the species that you find there. They have 103 species of lemurs, which is amazing. But I was there photographing a lemur um Al Tido on the sea bay and and just had my SLR out taking photographing a lemur in a tree, and another lemur, different species, jumped up on my shoulders and actually tried to tried to look through the viewfinder. And I have this photo of me trying to take a photo, lemur trying to stick a spin and clapping on my shoulder for like a good three, four minutes, trying to, I guess, see what I was seeing. Um, and then got a bit bored and jumped off by amazing. Um, and I'd I'd I'm I'm not for human wildlife kind of connection anywhere. But if an animal lemurs are they're not predators, but if they jump on you, um, I'm not going to, you know, you kind of just go with it. And and I suppose that that's where the embracing the bizarre, definitely one of the most bizarre things that's happened to me. Um but yeah, a special moment in hindsight.

SPEAKER_02: 52:56

Yes, I bet. Oh my gosh, it's been so amazing talking to you. And we're gonna put a link in the show notes um about where people can reach out to you. But thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. To learn more about visiting Africa, go to Ivona's website, which is takeoffgo.com. And if you're enjoying our podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Click on our profile, scroll to the bottom to leave a star rating. And if you're on Spotify, go to our main page and click the three dots under our photo, or simply drop us a line at hello at the worldawaits.au. We love hearing from our listeners. Thanks for joining us on the World World Awaits Summer series.

SPEAKER_01: 53:36

See you next time. That's a wrap for the World Awaits this week. Click to subscribe anywhere you listen to your favorite pods. Thanks for listening. See you next week.