(Rebroadcast) Ohio State Reformatory Artwork

Ohio Folklore

Hello and welcome to Ohio Folklore. I’m your host, Melissa Davies, and I’m delighted to serve as your guide through some of Ohio’s most treasured, and often misunderstood, folk legends. We’ll explore locations that have inspired a sense of wonder, awe and mystery. We’ll scour historical facts to lay out what can be known. We’ll explore oral histories from local people who’ve had first hand encounters with the places and legends themselves. And, lastly, we’ll consider the unexplained, the unresolved, the missing pieces. What keeps a legend alive is a mix of critical ingredients. You’ve got to have a sense of uniqueness, of being out of place. You’ve got to have an element of significance, of a message that speaks deeply in its universal truth. But lastly, and most importantly, you’ve got to have that feeling of curiosity, of a puzzle with a few vital pieces missing. Our minds want to fill it in, to make it whole. And that, my friends, is where folklore is born. It’s is a collection of stories we humans tell about the places and events that seem bigger than ourselves; that seem too fantastical for history books; that seem too mysterious for museums. Many of the stories we’ll cover in this podcast will say as much about the storytellers as the subject matter itself. The teller and the story cannot be separated. Sometimes, what’s conjured up to fill in the gaps, tells us more about ourselves than we realize. The legends we’ll cover will address our deepest fears, our most heartfelt wishes and our most ardent desire for something beyond our mundane lives.

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Ohio Folklore

(Rebroadcast) Ohio State Reformatory

February 27, 2022 • Melissa Davies

For our second rebroadcasted episode, come listen to Ohio Folklore's most downloaded tale, the legendary Ohio State Reformatory.

Most Ohioans know well the venerable institution called Ohio State Reformatory in Mansfield. It served as the backdrop for the 1994 seminal film, The Shawshank Redemption. Had the movie been shot elsewhere, the state would have demolished this historic structure. How fitting that this movie's message is one of redemption and hope against all odds. It resonates deep within us.

Tourists from all over the world come to visit this remarkable place. Some come for the history. Some come for the pop culture influence. Yet many come to fill their curious minds and hearts. They seek to know what lurks in the shadows, what hides behind iron bars.

Come hear the tales of three individuals with unique knowledge of the place. Hear the paranormal experiences of a tour guide, a ghost hunter and a volunteer. Come learn what draws them...what has drawn so many.

Lastly, hear the tragic tale of a supposed resident ghost, the spirit of a young man who was executed in the very electric chair now on display.

If you enjoy this episode, please rate, review and subscribe to Ohio Folklore on your chosen podcast platform. You can also find Ohio Folklore at:

ohiofolklore.com

facebook.com/ohiofolklore

And as always, keep wondering...

Unknown: 0:03

Hello and welcome to Ohio folklore. I'm your host, Melissa Davies. It's that time of year again. When the days grow shorter, the wind blows harder, and we turn our attention toward the more McCobb elements of our existence. For ages all around the world, the approach of All Hallows Eve has been marked by a growing reverence for the dead. We turn our attention to the spirits among us. We imagine what it must be like to exist beyond the veil. We don costumes in hopes of fooling these spirits, so they might not see us and our true vulnerabilities. We offer treats to appease them fruits and sweets, all of our most prized edibles, in hopes that we might survive long enough to celebrate All Saints Day come November. With any luck, after living a good life, we might one day become a saint ourselves and avoid having to roam the earth as some ephemeral spirit, doomed to haunt the living for centuries to come. Our topic today is one I've been saving and for good reason. For those of you who love ghost tales you're in for a real treat. This story is one that deserves special treatment. I'm releasing this shortly before that all important holiday Halloween. Some Ohio folktales grow so large and the public consciousness that their reputation precedes them. They enter into not only our history books that into local tourist attractions, into Hollywood blockbusters, and into the frightened hearts of countless Ohioans. I'm talking about the Ohio State Reformatory in Mansfield. Now normally, this is where I began to set the story for you. Those of you who've heard previous episodes of Ohio folklore are no doubt accustomed to the typical format. However, what I have for you here is a special departure. I've had the great fortune to connect with three unique individuals, all of whom offer a tantalizing view of what this historic correctional institution has come to represent. Each of their perspectives widen the scope on just how this spirited location once closed and slated for demolition, now draws visitors from around the world. There's something intangible that entices us to this hallowed ground. Some think it's the stunning architecture. Others say it's the ghostly whispers emanating from behind mock cells. And yet, Still others believe it's the history of the place. This grand structure, built in the late 19th century, once stood as a testament to our more progressive values. In the creation of the reformatory. We as Ohioans proclaimed that the most misguided among us could yet be redeemed. That very theme was echoed in the seminal film, The Shawshank Redemption, the 1994 movie that was filmed there, and has forever been tied to the place. We'll be learning about this larger than life Ohio legend through the eyes of a tour guide, who's been employed at The Ohio State Reformatory for four years. We'll hear from a ghost hunter who completed an investigation there last summer. And lastly, we'll hear from a volunteer, a man who admits being so drawn to the place that he willingly gives of his free time just to share the wonders he's found with others. Come hear their stories. So my name is Veronica Bagley. I started here actually, as a volunteer I was working events and things like that. And I was at the time working on a history degree at the University of Akron, so I needed to intern somewhere I figured this would be a pretty cool place. I had talked to our archivist, her name is Becky McKinnell. And she needed some help in our archives. So I did an internship with her there. Mostly what I did with her was processed our oral history collection, which is basically a collection of interviews with people that were here at the prison while it was operating. So my former staff, former inmates, people that had you know, Pastor, visitors, employees, so I kind of helped index that collection, and then interviewed a couple more people to add to it and then I ended up reading my paper on the history of the building. So I once I had graduated they kind of talks me into staying on as a tour guide. So here we are today. I'm here right now I'm here usually, like once or twice a week. But yeah, I've been here for a little over four years now. Well, I would say that that background qualifies you as a kind of expert on the place. I don't know if it's an expert expert. But yes, I do certainly have a lot of historic knowledge of the building. Right. And it's so fortunate that I've been able to connect with you. And I can see, I can kind of feel the passion to that you have. Yeah, it's a very cool building. I do like my job. That's, that's a blessing for sure. So I would guess that you have come across some stories in the archives and things that are pretty compelling. But then you've also had some interesting experiences of your own while you're there, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, as far as like, historic knowledge goes, so our archives department, it's interesting, because this building, when it closed, in 1990, it you know, the plan was actually to tear the building down. So a lot of it was just left as it was. Thankfully, Shawshank Redemption, came along and asked if they could film a movie here, otherwise, I would not be sitting in the building talking to you today. I'm sure. They left the building Stanford Shawshank Redemption to film it. And basically, while that was happening, a Preservation Society formed. But what's very interesting is that when they came in and took over the building in 1995, I mean, it had been sitting for five years, and unfortunately, people have broken in and looted it and things like that. But a lot of, you know, a lot of the things in the building that we now have in our archives, as artifacts are things that were just left here. In fact, we still find things laying around all the time. So artifacts wise, there's a lot of really interesting things in our archives Department records, for the most part are in Columbus, because it still exists, those are in the government archives, that Ohio History Connection. But yeah, certainly going through and being able to catalog that was interesting. But as far as my own experiences go, it was really neat to be able to interview people that were here, because though it didn't close until 1990. There's you know, still quite a few people around, but we're here to experience it while it was open. So that was definitely an eye opening experience. You know, I can study the building as much as I want. But getting to talk to somebody that was actually here and lived is definitely a really cool experience. Yeah, sort of a living history. Yeah, exactly. And I didn't realize that the movie played that central have a role and keep the keeping it preserved. Yeah, it's yeah, it certainly did. Yeah, they came in and filmed in 93. And so like I said, yeah, the state of Ohio let's left the building for them to film. Unfortunately, when Shawshank Redemption was finished filming, they did go ahead and tear down pretty much everything that we had in our yard. Behind the building we used to have over 20 outbuildings there was factories, school buildings and hospitals. The mess hall was back there. Unfortunately, that did all get torn down to make way for one of the new prisons behind us the Richland Correctional Institution. So that was unfortunately lost. But the Preservation Society was able to step in and save the rest of the building before it was also demolished. Which is, which is great. You know, it just seems a little strange, maybe, but it's kind of a double meaning with the redemption, the whole theme of the movie movie being redemption, and you guys were able to redeem. Yeah, exactly. Building what was left there? Well, let me ask, How long have you been a tour guide done? I started giving tours shortly after I started interning, so I would say probably about four years. Four years. Okay. And are you an employee or a volunteer? I am an employee now. Yes. Any more memorable visitors or experiences that you've had over that time? Oh, wow. Um, we had a lot of really interesting people come through the building. I mean, of course, we have all the we have all the huge events. You know, we had our big Shawshank Redemption 25th anniversary event last year. So a lot of the cast and crew from the movie were here. So it was really neat getting to meet some of them. I got to meet Frank Darabont, who directed the film, which was very, very cool. We have a big music festival every year called incarceration, we get to meet some of the, you know, some of the artists that come and play there are bands that come and play at that show. So that's always fun. I don't know there's been so many cool events over the years, you get to meet lots of really cool people. It does have quite a reputation here within the state but also, you know, at large I was pulling visitors from quite a distance. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We get people from all over the world that come see this. It's funny. I mean, a lot of people come here. What's really cool about my job it was a lot of people come here because of Shawshank Redemption. And it's kind of amazing how many people come in and they a lot of people you know, they know this is Shawshank Prison so some people don't don't even realize that it was an active prison, you know, from 1896 until 1990. So it's very cool to be able to have people come in and they're really excited to see because of the movie, and you get to give them a tour and show them all their favorite scenes from the movie where they were filmed. But you also get to teach them something about the history of the building and people walk away with, you know, all this knowledge they didn't have before. It's a very, it's a very cool job to have for sure. So some people think that it was just a movie set. They don't realize it was a functioning prison prior. Yeah. Yes, that happens more often than you might think for sure. Okay. Are there any other misconceptions that you commonly hear? Oh, I mean, a lot of if we're very fortunate to have been featured on a lot of television shows, and like you're interviewing me for podcasts right now and things like that. So we get a lot of people that have seen us on TV or heard about us here, they're one of the things for sure, that we should have misconceptions with is, you know, every single ghost hunting TV show that's ever been here, Ghost Hunters, Ghost Adventures, pretty much all of them have been here. And you know, we always tell people like those are great, they're very entertaining to watch. A lot of times a lot of the information is accurate. But sometimes the historic information is not all there. Because you know, if you've ever seen Ghost Adventures, like they'll exaggerate things for TV, of course, because it makes for good television, but you get people coming here a lot. They've heard this ad or the other on, you know, on Ghost Adventures or ghost hunters. And, you know, sometimes, sometimes historic information is not all they're not entirely accurate. i One of them was, I think it was Ghost Adventures when they were here. They were investigating in our basement, which is underneath our wardens, old living space, the entire front half of the building actually used to be a living space for our administrative staff. And they said they were in our morgue. So people come in constantly, and you know, they're like, where's the more can we see it? Like, we don't actually have a more, you know, like that. Like, they were just in the basement. It's not actually not what that was. So things like that happens pretty often. I think. Yeah. And you come to think of it a mortgage, what you find in a hospital matter. Right, exactly. I mean, some prisons certainly did have them. But yeah, we did. And if someone you know, past year they were usually taken to the hospital in Mansfield, you know. So would you say generally, does it feel like a lot of the paranormal claims maybe are more overhyped? Or do you have any personal? I wouldn't say that they're overhyped. I would say that they're certainly most of our if you ask most of our staff here, almost everybody will tell you that they've had something happened in this building that they can't explain whether it's paranormal whether, you know, whatever. Most people will tell you, they they've had they've had something happen. And so I don't doubt that there's certainly some kind of some kind of energy, something going on here. People come for ghost haunts all the time we do overnight ghost talks, we do ghost walks, which are guided tours at night. A lot of times people will experience things, then I've personally experienced things that I certainly can't explain. So I wouldn't say that the paranormal stories are overhyped. You have to be careful when you're watching like the TV shows, because sometimes they will exaggerate things. Sure. And what kinds of personal experiences have you had? Oh, wow, I've had I've had quite a few things happen in my in my time working here. I'm a little bit skeptical of paranormal stuff not gonna lie. It's not I'm not skeptical in the sense that I don't believe it exists. I'd say I'm more skeptical in the sense that not everything is a ghost, right. So you know, it's an old building, it makes weird noise. Sometimes you know, it creeks. There's animals that live in here, things like that. It gets cold in here in the winter. It's not because there's a ghost, it's because it's cold, you know, things like that. So yeah, skeptical in that sense. But I've certainly had some interesting things happen. I remember. Oh, man, I don't know I've had an I've had quite a few stories, probably one of the craziest thing. This happened during the day actually, I was working during the day I was giving tours. It was in December, it would have been a few years ago. Now. December, we're generally not super busy during the day because it gets really cold in here. And I had one tour group at noon. And it was a group of four people that signed up for my tour, they were all together. So over the history of meats, how they would tour which is basically exactly what it sounds like an overview of the history of the building with some, you know, Hollywood facts. There's been several movies filmed here. And so I always asked my tour groups when I start what they're interested in hearing about inevitably, you always have one or two people on your daytime tours that want to hear ghost stories. And that's not what ever been here for so we usually shy away from that in the daytime. So there's only I always say, you know, if you have questions about that, feel free to ask me after this. We're more than happy to answer your question. Well, this tour happened to have only four people on in all of them were very interested in paranormal things. So it's like alright, well, we'll walk around and You know, I'll tell you a couple ghost stories on the store today. And so we get through most of the building, I've had enough experiences to tell them stories and a lot of areas. But we got to solitary confinement. And that's, again, one of those places, everybody's like, Oh, that's the most haunted place in the whole building. Most of our staff will tell you probably the entire building is equally haunted. There's no more there's not one place. That's more than the next. But we got there. And I told this tour group is like, you know, I've actually never had anything happen in here before. And they kind of looked at me in shock. This one, it really is like the most honestly, the whole building has never really happened here. And I've learned not to say things like that anymore. Because the same day, I had one of the craziest things I've ever had happen. I got done with that tour, finished closing up the building. Basically, at the end of the day, we go through and we have to turn the lights off and lock everything back up. Make sure there's nobody hiding in here, right. And so I got done with that tour, it probably 130 we close down the building at five. So I was walking the tour route, hadn't seen anybody in the building. Like I said, it was a very slow day. But I'm getting through the tour route and kind of excited, I'm like sweet, I'm going to go home early today, you know, nobody in here. And I get all the way through the building in solitary confinement is toward the end of our tour route. And so I go in there to hit the lights. And it's kind of hard to picture this without being here. But solitary confinement, when you walk in, it's in a separate wing off the building. And there are two floors, first and a second floor. And right when you walk in, there's a staircase. Behind that staircase, there's satellite switches, there's a whole bunch of them, you hit all of those, you will get all the way to solitary confinement on both floors first and second. But only in the front half of it, you have to walk halfway down the cellblock and get another one in the back. If you were smart, you'd probably get the one in the back first, you don't walk up the front in the dark. I didn't do that. In the front. walk halfway back on the first floor, get all the first floor lights, everything's good. One upstairs, got the one halfway back on the second floor. And as I turned around to walk back up to the front of solitary to go back downstairs to get out. Shortly after I hit that light switch and turn around. I started hearing running coming from the back of solitaire and you find it and it was I mean, it was like heavy running in some way. Someone who had to be reboots or something. It was so loud. I didn't think paranormal I thought it was a person because when we hit the lights at the end of the day, we always yell you know, like, hey, if anybody's still up there buildings closing, right. And I hit the lights and hear this noise. So I turned around and look thinking there was somebody up there that was hiding because sometimes you know, that happens, you have to license someone thinks they're going to try to spend the night and turn the lights off on the main freak out and they start running. That was not what was happening was when I turned around and looked there was nothing there. But I'm still hearing the noise. So I keep walking. The only way out is to go down the stairs. And I decided I didn't want to try to go down them because whatever this is get my skeptical mind just listening to I don't know, maybe there's an animal in here and I can't see it. So I walked past the staircase and just kind of ducked up against the wall. And you know, when somebody comes running past you and you get that like that, like whoosh like that like breeze. Yeah, it was like right by the side of my face. And so I sit back up, I walked all the way back around to turn the lights back on, it's got to be something else here. There was nothing. So I finished closing the building didn't see anybody was kind of freaked out, but kind of excited because I'm like sweet, I got a solitary story now and it's a really good one. But I checked the decimal we had the cages of curiosity, when's the last time we fold a ticket today. And they're like, I don't know, maybe like three o'clock. And they had to be at least five 530 When I walked through solitary, so there wasn't anybody in here. So that was certainly crazy. And then it got weirder, because a couple for like a month later, I was giving a tour. And this was a night time for that ghost tour. And I brought my tour group in there and I was telling them the story. And while I was talking somebody on my tour, who was standing across from me, interrupted me. He goes, Hey, Veronica, I don't want to freak you out. But I just felt something pick up your hair and put it back down and I get lifted up my hair. She's like, No, you didn't. Because I didn't feel it. I was like, No, you didn't know mess with me. You're not funny, and I thought he was kidding. But at least four other people on the tour. Were like no, we saw it too. I was like, Oh, good. Apparently have a friend in here now. Okay. My name is Veronica. Don't touch my hair. I'm gonna be okay. Certainly, yeah, that's that's got to be one of the weirder things for sure. to anything I've ever had happen. I again, sometimes, you know, people make it out to be like, Oh, it's like dark, whatever. I don't know me personally, I've never had anything happen like that. A lot of times it's more playful. But if you if you think about it, the inmates have year for most of the time we were operating. You know, they were first time nonviolent offenders. We opened up at the reformatory, which means you know, this place is designed to reform people to help people more than it is to punish them. You know, they had to go to school they go to work. It goes to the yard. So for the most part, these are like young again, first time, usually non violent offender. So if anything if that's if that's the kind of energy or spirits we have here, they're probably just curious. Yeah. That's a good point. Do you have a sense about how many people actually died there at the reformatory? That's a good question. We don't know. So the records, as far as that goes, are pretty, pretty hard to come by. And they're not nonspecific. So we don't have an exact number. If you someone could probably count in Columbus at the archives, Ohio History, connections archives, they have an index of inmates, and there's an in and out date on that index. And so if you got out on parole, it'll say parole, and there's a date. If you got out because your sentence was over, it says expired, and there was a date. And if you died, it says died and there was the date, someone could probably go through encounter, and it was very time consuming. And unfortunately, those records are not entirely complete, there's pieces missing, what we do know is that there is a cemetery behind us, it is still in use by the state of Ohio, the new prisons behind us still use it, so it's not publicly accessible. But when we closed in 1990, they were a little over 200 burials back there. So we know at least them any, we don't, we don't have the records, we don't know who the people are, a lot of the headstones don't have names on them, most of them are just a number. So we don't know. But the only reason you would be buried in that cemetery is unfortunately, if you passed away here, and nobody claims you. So usually what would happen if someone passed, they would try to contact family, friends, whoever to claim the body, essentially, if nobody did, you would be buried there. So we know at least a little over 200. But there were certainly there were certainly more than that. I mean, just from my experience going through the index in Columbus, when I was doing research on the building, I would say probably in the first you know, 3040 years, there was probably more than 200 on that on the index that said I didn't have a date. So and it's probably hard to know, then more specifics, like how many might have died from suicide or right when they were killed by another inmate or Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Cuz all that index does is it literally just says died and there was a date. So there's no further information if you found that inmates conduct record, per se, and then you could find more detailed information sometimes that might have more details. But again, some of those are hard to come by because there's large chunks of a missing that makes sense. So we have a cemetery on the premises. And you know, I I visited the place of a few years ago, and it's just stunning. The architecture is beautiful when they show I know especially that really the the cellblock That's huge. That's I don't how many stories for that six stories. Yeah, there's so there's two main cell blocks for the facility, east and west, they do both pick up the same amount of space as the building is symmetrical. But there are more cells on the east side. So our East cell block has six years. And there are about 50 cells on every range over there. And then our West cell block has five tiers. And there's between 30 and 35 cells on every range over there. So those cells on the west side are slightly larger, because there are less of them. So I had heard the myth that some inmates had been thrown over the railing. Yeah, that's probably not a myth that probably did happen. Yeah, the West, the West cellblock for a very long time, just has waist rail. So there's five tears over there. And on the tears, there's, you know, there's rails, but they're they said there, they're about waist height. So yes, people probably were pushed off. People fell off there certainly probably incidents where people jumped off. Yeah, we don't know the details, but that probably didn't happen. The state of Ohio eventually decided to wrap that entire cellblock and fencing essentially, there's still some parts of it, where you can see where that was. My understanding is the Preservation Society eventually took it off just because it was in really bad shape. And it was a safety hazard having, you know, fencing that's falling apart all over the place. So but they are as I know, they didn't put the fencing up until probably the 70s. So it was open for a very long time. The East cellblock, however, which was constructed after the West, cellblock does have bars all the way up and down, so it wouldn't have been an issue over there. I think. Are there particular legends or stories that seem to have stuck around to the place anything in particular? Well, there's quite a few. Yeah. Is there anything specific you're wanting to hear about? So of course I've read a bit about was a warden glatt key. Right. I don't know if they're There's anything unique related to that that you think's relevant. Yeah, there's quite a few stories about the black keys. So Arthur black, he was, he was the longest serving warden in this prison history. He was working from 1935 until 1959. This is that time period is a really important one in the prisons history as well, because that's when we're starting to make the transition from a medium security reformatory to a maximum security prison. That happened for a lot of reasons. But one of the main reasons is overcrowding. We started getting overcrowded really quickly in the 20s. Because of prohibition, right? You have people now coming to prison on charges of liquor trafficking, which was not an issue previously. And so we have a lot more people coming here than we had the space for. And then in the 1930s, of course, you have the Great Depression, which, again, it's going to it's going to impact your prison populations. In 1930, as well, there was a really large significant fire at the Ohio penitentiary in Columbus. It killed over 300 inmates, it's one of the worst to happen in the United States still to this day. And after that fire happened, the penitentiary started sending some people out to other facilities. One to take some time to repair the damage. But also because they were just they had too many people in there when that fire happened the penitentiary at over twice their maximum capacity. Up to that point. Theoretically, the only way you went to the reformatory here is if you if this was your first offense, right? This would be your first time in a correctional facility if you were here. They started thinking, well, there's a lot of people at the penitentiary that committed similar offenses, right burglary charges, for example that we're sending people to the reformatory for, but they might be at the penitentiary because they had a record already. It's like, Well, maybe if we send some of these people out of the penitentiary and send them to a reformatory, or an honor farm or something like that, give them another chance to reform themselves. Maybe they'll get out faster, and they won't come back, which is a good idea in theory for these guys are coming from penitentiary, right, which is a very, very different institution. And we are at the reformatory as you can imagine somebody at the penitentiary, maybe they're in there on a burglary charge. But they're in the same building as somebody on a charge of double homicide. Yeah, you know, you you're gonna, you're probably not going to, you might come out of better criminal, especially right, because you're gonna be with these other people. And you got to do what you got to do, you know. So they started sending people here from the penitentiary in 1930. We have to adapt. So they started increasing our security. Eventually, they started sending more people here, we're continuing to be overcrowded. In the 30s, we were at our highest this this prison was built house between 14 and 1600 people. But at its highest, that house probably closer to 3400. So there was a lot more people in here than we could handle. And so we have to start changing how we do things. And so as they're making all these changes, Arthur Blackie is the warden in 1935, when they're starting to increase their security and starting to change how this prison operates. And by the 1960s, we officially become a maximum security prison, which means the reform program that we had, it's going to change a lot. When we open they say you had to participate in that reform program, you had to go to work, you had to go to school, you had to go to church, you had to go out to the yard. These things were intended to give you skills so that when you get out, you're not coming back, right. So you could get a real education you could get, you could actually get your high school diploma here. Later on, they offered college classes and you could get real college credit, you got real certificates to do things at your workplace, you could work in the boiler house, and you could get a certificate to operate that you could become a nursing aide in our hospital, you could become a state certified barber in our barber shop. So these, these things start dropping off slowly, they still exist. And you can still participate in them if you if you choose to. But once we start becoming a match, these things become optional. And so now you no longer have to go to work or go to school if you don't want to. But that means you're going to sit yourself for a lot longer. And the cells that are designed to ask you for eight hours a day, because it's a place for you to sleep because the rest of the day you're out doing thing now could be helping you for 20 hours a day. And you probably have a bunkmate so it's you know, I can't I can't imagine how stressful arthroplasties job was because they're trying to operate. This is something that it wasn't built to operate us so but he became more than when he became more than he did have on site. He was actually still single when he moved in here. But eventually he meets a woman named Talon and they end up getting married. I believe he met her at a political event. She moved in here with him. They lived here for a while this was actually their starter home. They had a couple of kids while they were living here. One of those kids is actually still around today. I think he lives in California now. The other kids unfortunately passed away two or three years ago. They put up all kinds of stuff over here. I can't even imagine growing up In this building, there's little. We have home videos of the glaspie kids like riding, you know, tricycle bikes, whatever, like outside on our front porch. It's so crazy to see it. But yeah, so he moved in here with Helen. Sorry to family. But unfortunately for them, they went through a lot of tragedy while they were living here. Story is Helen black, he was getting ready for an event. She was getting ready for the day. And she was in her bedroom. And our wardens living space. And she was reaching up into your closet to grab like hat box or a jewelry box or something, it was on the top shelf. And these closets are really big with built in, they're really tall. And I guess she was reaching up to grab this box and didn't realize that her husband's loaded gun was sitting on top of one of them. And so she dropped the box, drop the gun, it did discharge when it hit the floor and hit her through her long. She was yeah, she was she was transported the hospital immediately. And Mansfield was doing okay for a while, but unfortunately, complications set in and she passed away a couple days later, due to that injury. So after that happened, Arthur and the kids did continue to live here. But in 1959, Arthur was found slumped over his desk downstairs, he had suffered a heart attack. And I can't imagine how stressful his job was, he probably never got away from work, I can't imagine living at my workplace. And you know, now he's also a single father of two kids. But he was also taken to the hospital in Mansfield. And he did pass away that same day at the hospital. So at that point, his kids were not quite old enough to move out on their own yet, they were still in school. So they continued living here actually, with the assistant warden who was living here at the time, until they were ready to move out. At that point, the state decided, you know, what, we probably don't need our staff on site anymore. When we opened, that was a very common practice to have your staff on site, whether it was a correctional facility or a hospital or you know, like a mental health institution. A lot of times you had your staff on site, because, you know, in the late 1800s, early 1900s, if there's an emergency, you can't get ahold of them quickly, nor can you get the meter quickly. So you really needed them close by. But by the late 1950s, it's a different story they in In addition, we're starting to become a maximum security prison. So it's probably a safety concern, having your staff on site. So the assistant warden was moved out in the early 1960s. And then guards were the last staff to move out, they continue to live on site up into the 70s. And they were moved out after that there was actually some houses across the street that the state owned by guards could rent at that point as well. And so are there also alleged paranormal claims in the wardens area that they think are attributed to? Yeah, there certainly are. Yeah, a lot of people a lot of people feel like they're still around. Sometimes people want to some of the more common claims that people will experience. People will sometimes smell like, like rose or like rosewater type stuff. Helen Blackie was actually known to wear rosewater perfume, so a lot of people feel like that might have been her. Sometimes, people will smell like cherry scented pipe tobacco over in that area. People usually feel like that might be Arthur still hanging around. So yes, they're certainly they're certainly claims of people having experiences which they think may be one of the black keys. And do you have any tips for maybe first time visitors? People who've not been there? Oh, yeah. I always tell people expect the unexpected. Yeah, you will probably learn something that you did not know before. But the building architecture is amazing. So certainly be prepared to take that in. It's not what you expect to see in a prison for sure. Especially on the outside. I mean, the building is gorgeous. Looks like a castle. So yeah, as far as as far as that goes, Yeah, I always tell people expect the unexpected. You're gonna you're gonna see or learn something that you were not expecting to see or learn, especially with the building. For all the different ways people can experience it. You have you mentioned the Hollywood in history tour. Is there like a self guided tour right during the day? Yeah, so there's a lot of different. There's a lot of different options for experiences building depending on what you're interested in. Right now, our daytime tours are all self guided because of COVID-19. Unfortunately, we can't have huge groups. So yeah, right now they are all self guided. We do have audio ones. So those are kind of like little portable tour guides. There's little blacks around the building with numbers on them and you just type it into your little one hold it up to your ear. It'll give you a lot of information. Those have information historic information, Shawshank stuff, other Hollywood movies, paranormal information. Those are great. I usually recommend at least giving yourself an hour and a half to walk through the building. Although it can throw you could make a whole day out of it if you wanted to. But when we start doing guided tours, again, we do have a couple we have our history meets Hollywood score, which is our general overview, you'll get a lot of historic information you'll get the Shawshank information will stop at a lot of areas where they did some filming for that movie. Some people, depending on your tour guide, you'll get a different tour most times, because all of us have our own special interest or history with the building. So it's always fun, you can come multiple times, and you'll probably have a slightly different experience every time which is great. And we also have a beyond the bars tour, which is usually the one that I give. So I'm very much looking forward to being able to do that, again. That's where we'll get you into all the restricted areas that you don't get to see on the normal tour or the self guided tour. So that one takes you up to our old armory, it'll take you up, it'll take you up into the attic down into the sub basement or new solitary confinement. Couple other spots do depending on the day and weather permitting. So that's a great tour, if you want to get more architectural information. That's definitely a history heavy tour gets into some of the more scandalous stuff that was going on for sure. And then we also do a inmate guided tour with one of our former inmates, his name is Michael Humphrey. He was here. And so he'll do a tour where he will tell you what it was like being here based on his own personal experiences. So that's absolutely a great one to take. If you ever get a chance. Those are all the daytime tours. And we have nighttime tours. Oh, yeah, yes, we do. We do go swaps, which are guided tours that go out at night. Usually those are on Fridays, those are definitely gonna be more paranormal focused tours. Again, with those, you'll get a different tour every time because your tour guide will tell you their own personal experiences. So those are great. Sometimes there's time, you know, usually when I give them we'll do a little bit of investigating on those tours, but they're about two hour long guided tours, and you'll get historic information. But in addition, those are more paranormal focus will tell you some fun ghost stories. And then we do ghost hunts, which are overnight investigations. So those when you come in, you'll get a tour, and then you're on your own. So three in the morning, their staff here, of course, if you have questions or need anything, but that'll give you some opportunities and investigation. So those are also a lot of fun. So many options you get for people to examine and investigate. And I like the combination of the history, as well as the supernatural elements. I'm sure that's a big part of what draws people to the place. Is that, that what you gather too is? Or maybe I should just ask you, what do you think is the most compelling element that keeps drawing people? Ooh, um, I mean, honestly, I think I'm biased because I work here and I love the building. So I think everything is equally fascinating. But I think people come for both though. And it's, like I said earlier, it's cool because you have people that come here for one specific thing, maybe they come here because they you know, they follow us on Ghost Hunters and they're really interested in the paranormal aspect. But then when they get here, they learn something about the history too. Or maybe they come here because they love Shawshank Redemption, but then they you know, learn something else while they're here. So I think all of it is equally fascinating, but we do try to offer something for everybody. Something for everybody. Indeed, one of the biggest draws from any visitors is the opportunity to seek out spirits. Ghost Hunters of all stripes are known to come from far and wide. Next, we'll hear from one such adventurer, Miss Holly fester, a middle school teacher by day. Holly had long to investigate the Ohio State Reformatory for years before finally doing so this past summer. And boy, does she have a story to tell us. I am in a tiny little town called Girard Illinois. I'm from St. Louis. So we're in the country. All right. So nice to connect with you over all these miles. And I guess maybe illustrates a bit of the reputation that the reformatory has having drawn you from all that distance. Yes, for sure. It's definitely the reformatory is infamous amongst people who like to stir up stuff. That's what I've been gathering. You know, I've been born and raised in Ohio all my life and it's loomed large and folklore here. So it's nice to have a perspective your perspective from the outside looking in. And I am one half of the founding members of cities paranormal. The other half is my cousin and best Friend magenta, and she lives in Louisville, Kentucky. So, Louisville and St. Louis, our sister cities. And so that's how we came up with a name for our little organization. And we've been ghost hunting together. This is going to be SCPs 10th year coming up. So Ohio State was one of our bucket list items. We finally got there this past summer, and it was awesome. Well, now I'm so curious, or speak here in more detail. But how 10 years? That must be quite the accumulation of stories. That yes, I have so many stories. And actually, this is the season when, you know, my friends are like, Hey, we're having a bonfire come over. And you know, Holly's got some reason. I once Yeah, once you get me started on, like, I have so many things that, you know, when you go into these places that when they happen, you're like, it did that didn't really happen. And it doesn't really hit you how unique of an experience it is until you've slept on it, I think and told the story to somebody else. And you're like, Oh, my God, I can't believe that happened to me. So we definitely had a couple of those happen in OSR. Right? What were some of your expectations, maybe going into it? or what have you learned about it beforehand? Well, I probably the first time that magenta and I had heard about Mansfield or OSR was on one of the travel male goats shows because that was how we and everybody else, you know, got into paying good money to go into buildings, and ride around in the dark all night. And I just remember seeing it for the first time on Ghost Hunters and Ghost Adventures and just thinking, Oh, my God haunted prison now that that would be cool. And so we just kind of thought, okay, yes, Sunday, because it's kind of in the middle. For both of us we like to find haunts that we can meet up up. We just lucked out. And we were able to get a spot this summer. And going into it for expectation. Magenta and I are both researchers. We were both teachers. We both really like to be armed with knowledge and like to know what we're going into and have a plan. But somebody other members of our team really like to go in blind. And so some people that we went with didn't even know that it was the movie set. And when we pulled up they were like, This was really Yeah, I didn't want to spoil it for you. But it's kind of Shawshank, you know. So I think that our expectations were just like, This is big. The other I would compare it to Waverly Hills Sanatorium and Louisville, which is our other great big building that one of the other great big buildings that we've done that gives us kind of that same thrill of anticipation because it's just so well known. Oh, yes. And very imposing structures, both of them. Yes. And oh, Ohio State is gorgeous. I mean, pulling up it really the way that the town is set up. Obviously, it seems obvious to me anyways, that, you know, the prison got there first, and then the halls popped up in the town, you know, town popped up around it as people came to work there. And so you really, the prison sits on the outskirts of the town. And the way that our GPS took us was up over a rise. And then as we, you know, got to the top of this hill, it was just laying down below us. And it is imposing. Definitely intimidating, but really gorgeous. I mean, the preservation work that they've done. It's really it's immaculate. It's beautiful. Now, there seems to be quite a passion, not just for the paranormal goings on course, but also the history and the architecture. And yeah, there's so much to be admired there. I think. So it was, like you said a bucket list for you in magenta. And say you found they found the time just this past summer to go. Yeah, you know, a little shout out to to the to the folks who run the place. The Preservation Foundation. They were so nice to work with, and so pleasant and able to get us in. And then when we got there, I believe it's tri city, ghost hunters or paranormal I'm sorry, I don't know their name exactly. But they were our hosts. And they were wonderful as well. So definitely shout out to all the people who run that place to do a great job. On glad to hear you're welcome. Let's talk more than about what the actual experience was like, for you. This place when you walk up to it, like you said, it looms large and it literally does he walk up to it, you feel small. And when you walk in, I mean, it was a hot day, it was, you know, upper 90s. Very hot summer go. But when you walk into that door, it's cool. And it's you get that musky smell of a dark closed in space. And as the paint is peeling off of all the bars of the styles and gives it a very dilapidated or old and abandoned everything that you want it to look like it looks like. And the sounds that the doors make when they you know, when they shot. They're very ringing and loud. And it kind of makes you think what it would be like to hear that if you were hearing that closed behind you. The two cell blocks are really imposing their freestanding cell blocks. I can't remember if they're six stories tall, they're very tall. And when you're walking them, they seem to go on forever. And the sound echoes and really messes with you, because you are making your own shuffling sounds but you're hearing other shuffling sounds. As far as experiences that we had. We had a lot but the two that I can think of, first of all, we so we went went with a group of about a dozen of us. And we were we were close to half and half men and women. The men, the boys, nothing happened to them. They had no experiences. The girls, we were having experiences left and right. So I thought that was interesting because you know male prison, you get some fun, talkative, energetic female energy in there and stuff started to really kind of happen as soon as we started. So the first thing that happened was we girls that are probably eight of us, walked out of the safe room and headed down to an area of one of the cellblocks where we have been told some certain things were happening I think we were headed toward the hospital flush toilet room and shower room. And we didn't even get I mean, we were two minutes into our investigation we hadn't even gotten all the way down or long. cellblock when I saw just clear as day at the end of this long cellblock it was lit up read from an exit sign, and I saw probably a six foot tall shadow just go in front of me and I stopped in my tracks and I had it on I have my reaction on video but I don't have the actual shadows that you're on video. I stopped in my tracks and I go wait a minute and then in my video you hear my friend Brittany go oh my god, did you see that too? And I said what did you see? And she was like I just saw a shadows with your I just saw somebody walk across the end of the hallway. And we tried to recreate it. I thought maybe it was a flashlight behind me. Shining. I'm projecting my shadow onto the wall we tried to debunk and there was no it was impossible. We just saw what we saw. And right away we were like okay like, Okay, this is gonna be interesting and it just went from there. We stopped right where we were and had did a dowsing rod session which is where you hold the two copper rods and try to hold them in a neutral position ask questions and try to get yes and no answers. We got plenty of hits on that. We went into the toilet room from there and we were getting more answers to our dowsing rods questions and then we had a rock thrown at us In the toilet room? Yeah, it was really, it was a pebble and it unmistakably got flicked across the floor from the back corner of the room toward us. And we were getting ready to leave. I think we had said, you know, would you like us to leave? Just let us know. Right on a few. Yeah, we were like little, that seems like an indication that you would like us to leave a powerful experience, especially with the shadow. Thank you for that you had confirmation with the other person there? Yeah, that was so that is always wonderful. When that happens that somebody else sees it or experiences that as well. I'll tell you the last experience of the night, that really is the one that I'll take with me as my memory from Ohio State. For us, it was myself magenta, and Rachel and Robin, we, again, just a group of females. It was almost three o'clock in the morning when we had to leave. And we had to walk down to the end of one of the cellblocks to pick up a camera that we had left because we wanted to record while we weren't there. We took the long way around, and we went all the way around this huge spot in the dark. And as we picked up the camera, and we started the last stretch to walk back to the safe room. She didn't know better. I said, Okay, you guys, we're leaving. This is your last chance if you would like to say goodbye to us. And that's typical for me to say. But then my smart alec friend Rachel said, yeah, thank you bug on the rails or so and we'll come up and let you out. Which we don't provoke. Well, that's like not we it was just a joking kind of a thing that she said it but right when she said that Rachel and I were walking in the back and I mean 15 feet behind us. 20 feet behind us. We hurt, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp on the concrete. In the dust of the concrete, we heard like boots, heavy male footsteps, stomping and shuffling toward us. And we both all four of us froze and retold. I looked at each other and I said are those and she said and it was like as Scooby Doo. We got those like rambling legs, like we just couldn't panic. Because it was right behind us. And it was so clear. And we'd started to run because that fight or flight kicked in. And Robin said, let's get out of here. And we started to scramble and kind of run and I said whoa, wait, wait, hold on. We don't do this, we're not gonna run. And we had to like force ourselves to walk calmly back that entire links of that cellblocks and I turned around and said, Okay, you know, I hope that you enjoyed that because you just scared the crap out of four females. You know, we're leaving now you have to stay here and kind of did the usual clipping spiel that we do. But that's a moment, I'll never forget. Because that one sent chills straight down my spine. You did such a great description of that. And just the natural, like instinctual fear. You know, someone's running at you. If something like running up your basement stairs as a kid, that's exactly what it felt like, or when you were a kid, definitely not a 40 year old woman. And you run in jump on your bed in the dark. And you know, because of the thing under the bed. It's just that that irrational kind of giddy fear feeling. That's exactly what it was. And for the four of us grown women to have to be like, Okay, we're not gonna run. We are going to walk and, you know, be brave. It was it was definitely tough. How does that compared to other sites that you've instigated over the past years? It was, I think that Ohio State was really remarkable for the number of personal experiences that we had, just like that one. I don't have any proof of that on any any of the media that we had. And that was the case. I really didn't get a lot of other evidence from there. Usually we Get a fair amount of EVPs, which is electronic voice phenomenon where you don't hear it with your ears, but you hear it on the recording after the fact we always get those. I don't think we got a single one. And it really seemed like whatever is at OSR. Seems kind of wily seems kind of cunning seems to definitely come out when it wants to and not when it doesn't. Other spots, other hunts that we have investigated, like I would say, Waverly Hills, and Louisville has a really peaceful feeling about it actually. It's just such a beautiful setting and you're out in the country in this abandoned but still graceful building. And it doesn't feel ominous or heavy. We've been to another prison, went to Missouri State Penitentiary, and had some really heavy interactions there. Where we, we definitely felt watched and unappreciated. Were actually a couple of couple of our friends got physically ill at the time. Yeah, and I didn't feel anything like that. At Ohio State. Personally, twice, I felt that feeling of running up the basement stairs, I really felt like something was just just kind of pushed me along, like right on my heels. But nothing that felt heavy, like, you better leaves this dark. So a lot of what's happened in these different types you've been to it's almost like an emotional experience when personally in the atmosphere, right? Yeah. And I think it depends on if you're paying attention to that. And not everybody interacts like that. That's just kind of, I guess my style is to sort of, I don't know, feel it. I don't mean to sound too, like, hippie dippie when I say that, but it is I mean, there is a spiritual component, of course, you're going looking for spirits. That makes sense. This is probably not a really a fair question. But it's, you know, trying to guess at who or what is behind this or who it represents, whether it's former inmates or guards or something else altogether, as it must be pretty hard to put a finger on that. As far as what, what remains or what the nature of the haunting is, right? The particular spirits that are there. Yeah, I really, I tend to think of these buildings as kind of like, old dead trees, you know, after a tree has lived and served its purpose as a living tree, if it dies, and is still standing, it becomes a habitat to whatever is passing through. And whatever needs a place to hang out, whether it be other plants, or birds nesting in it, or other animals living in it, to me that that's how I think of places like Ohio State, because I don't necessarily think, oh, people died here or whatever. All these people died here, they must all still live here. I think that if that was the case, we'd have a lot more haunted office buildings and haunted schools and hospitals. To me. I think that depending on where you go, you get a lot of just whatever spirit or entity is kind of passing through or has made a home there. You know, they can be untruthful with you, if you get into interacting with energies that can manipulate or make you hear them or all the different ways that they can interact with us, we inox or turning flashlights off and on. They can be untruthful, they can be misleading. So I'm careful to assume that anything I interact with was a patient or was a prisoner or work there. I would hate to haunt a middle school hallway. Of my you know, I always call when you're alive. I don't want it to be said that Ole Miss spectre is haunting sixth grade hallway. Because you wouldn't want that for your eternal resting. Not personally. That makes a lot of sense. And I love your metaphor of the dead tree. And also, you know, kind of answers the question that's been rumbling around in my mind, which is, you know, these inmates Were doomed to be in prison their, for their life or their physical life. Why on earth? Or in any universe? Or would they want to stay there as spirits? So it makes sense that maybe it is more of a place for wandering souls. Just speak. Yeah, and I, and I think it's possible that both the both occurred that you have some, maybe some actors that are connected and, and do and I also think that the nature of, of these energies is that they are on, they're not on the same plane as us, it's not as if they can only bounce around the walls of one physical building. So I really, I attend to go into it like, Okay, this place is a magnet for energies, and it seems to be a safe place where these entities can hang out and gather. And they seem to like to show themselves when you go into this place. And so I see it, more of that, than I do as like, okay, these are all prisoners who are here. Makes sense. I like how it expands the concept of what a lot of people assume, that goes through just where you know, somebody happened to die in this physical location where now there's a lot about the roles of whatever that plane is that we certainly may not understand. Right? How can we possibly know and that's why to me, that analogy of the tree might makes more sense that kind of whatever is passing through, might take up residence there for a little while, till chased off by something else, or until it finds somewhere better or moves on. So Right. Like I said, my personal experience, and I would say our the the experiences of sister studies, paranormal was positive. The vibe that I got was curious. And a little shy. Like I said, we did not experience anything heavy and on an ominous and I think when you go into a haunted prison, that's certainly what I was kind of expecting and was bracing for was like, Okay, I'm ready for the energy of some big burly dude, who's angry and protecting his cellblock to tell me to piss off. But I never personally experienced that. So that would be the only thing that I would say to somebody is when you go into a haunt like this or any other and it's thought a reputation, you should certainly do your research. Because if there is something that it's known for an evil presence, then you should know that going in. But I wouldn't assume that that's going to be how your night goes, you just never know. So I'm really great advice, especially for folks who've never done there. Any other, even more practical just tips about what to expect or what kind of mindset for them to bring? Sure. So if it's, somebody is thinking about going to do an investigation, and they haven't done one before. Or maybe they've only gone on Route. And, you know, led investigations and they're thinking about trying a private investigation. Definitely do your research. Of course, I think that's my personal opinion, I like to know. And I would say bring lots of batteries, because they it's amazing how to have a fully charged battery in whatever devices is you're using. And that's what I think they're using to manifest because they do drain your batteries. There's a really nice, safe room at OSR, where they have lots of outlets and a nice bathroom and they buy you pizza and they give you cold drinks, which was so nice. I mean, they were wonderful hosts. On a kind of spiritual note, I recommend to everybody that I take on a hunt to ground themselves in the way that they choose before they go in. For me and my group, that means that we circle up and we pray to St. Michael. And I wear a little talisman, and you know, call my angels and just ask them for their protection and also ask them to keep me from doing anything stupid. Like if I'm starting to mess was something I shouldn't have any business messing with please let me know and I will listen to you. So and for people who aren't religious, I'd say that's okay. You don't have to be just whatever. Whatever it is that You do to put up a spiritual wall around yourself before you go in and kind of get your mind right is a good idea because that helps keep you in the moment and not as afraid. And I will tell you that things can follow you home. And you don't want that. That's a whole nother story for another time probably. Oh, boy. Very, very sage advice based on that personal experience. It sounds like Yes. And also, to your point, I think just being very mindful and open. And, you know, having those walls down, as well as being able to pull them up when you need to. Yes, I would agree. And keeping, I would say, keeping your your mind, like you said, keeping your mind open, because I think that people who go on their first hunt, or you know, who want to hear my ghost stories, they think that you see a full bodied apparition every time you turn a corner. And that is certainly not the case, you're, you know, you're sitting in the dark, for 40 minutes at a time in total quiet while you're sweating. Checking the batteries in your camera just waiting to hear something. And at the time, it's like, okay, this isn't exactly what I expected. But when you come out of it, you think, oh my gosh, I really audible explanation for these really odd things that happened. And I think I experienced something really unique and paranormal. So I feel like if you come out of it at the end of the night with that, then it was good, hon. That's, that's a good point to because I think some people from just watching all of the ghost shows and reality TV ghost hunting, you know, it's all condensed to those moments that are so compelling, that I'm sure I'm whole. You know, there's a lot of downtime and listening for something that you're not getting in the dark and listening to that. But yes, in those moments where you get something, it's it's definitely thrilling. So it seems that patients really pays off when it comes to ghost hunting. For those of us determined to encounter what's behind the veil, sitting and listening and listening, and sitting is often what leads to that final thrilling moment of capturing evidence of something beyond ourselves. Our last guest is one Mr. Tom Hale. Once a visitor this Lima man became so intrigued by the place that he now dedicates part of his free time to promoting its Marvels to the rest of us. And with good reason. Tom has the bug so to speak. You can hear it in his voice. Come hear it for yourself. Yeah, I got into it by absolute accident. I work in health care. And there was a patient I was working with had back surgery. And I was helping helping him with his therapy afterwards. And I walked in the room. I didn't know the guy from Moses. And I said, Please tell me you're a guard, not an inmate because he had a t shirt from Ohio State Reformatory Mansfield, Ohio on it. So it's kind of an icebreaker. And he said, No, I actually go there with my kids. I have one kid that goes to college in Cleveland, another one in Columbus. And we meet in Mansfield, once or twice a year, I get to spend some time with my kids. They're used to being up all night studying and doing whatever. It's a win win. He told me some of the evidence that he got. And then we went with the arm of this therapy and everything. And I thought the nurses are giving him way too much pain medication to be talking about dose and evidence and all this other stuff. That's the first thing I thought of. And I went to go check out their Facebook page after I had my conversation with them that night. And then I went to a volunteer meeting thinking that I'm going to be the only one crazy enough to drive an hour and a half to go to a volunteer meeting to volunteer at this place. And little bit I find out that there are people that come from Cleveland, Columbus, some come from Southeast Michigan, just from all over the place, they can drive 10 minutes or they can drive an hour and a half like I could. So yeah, it's there's a lot of people that have volunteered their time there just for trying to tell a story of what used to happen back in the day with incarceration in Ohio. Well, that really speaks for itself the radius of distance there that it draws volunteers from including yourself and you said you were from Lima? Yeah. Yeah, I live in LA. I'm originally born in Toledo. But I work here in Lima. And like I said, I just happen to go ahead and cross my path of life with the patient who did it goes from there with his kids and just that one Conversation kind of helped me get interested in this. I guess it was meant to be. And yeah, that's what I'm that's what some other people have said to. So it's been, I think you said eight years that you've been working. Okay. Yeah. What are some more of the standout stories that you've collected yourself? Or that you've heard of? I think, I think the first thing that comes to mind is the very first time I actually had some evidence there. And it was a very random night. At the time, when I volunteered, they really wanted you to know the history of the place. Before you can get involved with the ghost stuff, in case anybody asked for anything specific. And so I was a year and a half into it. And I was leaving a ghost town about about to wonder two o'clock in the morning and I was driving home and I had drive an hour and a half back to Lila. So I just talked with somebody in the central guard room, and I'm walking down the stairs to pull my walkie talkie away. And I see this big shadow figure on the right. And I'm walking downstairs, and it looks it just looks like cigarette smoke. Or cigar smoke was just hanging there. And didn't smell anything but I could see as clear as day. So and mentally I'm losing it at this point, because I'm thinking, oh my god, this is the first time I've ever seen anything, keep it together. Don't scream Don't shout, just kind of keep it together. And I turned the left away from it. I put my walkie talkie when and went right back in the hallway again, and it was gone. So then I started sniffing like this, like if you got a cold or allergies, you start sniffing I'm thinking okay, is this really the cigarette smoke? Because I'm right by the door goes out to the parking lot. Is this is the gar I'm trying to debunk the whole thing. At the same time, two or three women come down the stairs that I just walked down. I thought I was crying. No, I just saw something. Forget it. Nevermind, you'll never believe me anyway. And so that was kind of my first paranormal experience that was there. But I've seen I've seen people that have gotten their hair pulled, literally right in front of me. I have seen shadow figures, I've heard door slamming just a lot of really weird stuff. It doesn't happen every time that I go. But it has happened. And the smoking kind of what you saw was that like wispy, like, you know, smoke that that dissipates in that in the air? Did it have any kind of shape? No, it was it was just kind of something that's kind of hung there in the air. I mean, there wasn't like a body figure shape or anything like that. But it was something I've never seen before. And I wasn't fatigued at all, like I need to go to sleep. And I don't wear glasses or contacts when I go to do ghost hunts and stuff like that, or even anything at the reformatory. So it's not like my eyes were playing tricks on either. But I just never seen that before. And it just kind of just shocked the heck out of me when it first happened. Because I wasn't expecting I was gonna put my walkie talkie away and go go home and tell about it. And they say sometimes that's when you might have the more profound experiences is not when you're calling out to them, I guess. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They come to you on their terms kind of thing. Sure. Yeah. And then the other things that you've seen were like the hair pulling and the odd sounds that can't be explained. Yeah, the last one that happened was it was it was the middle the end of June right after the governor gave the okay to start doing things in public. So we can get out of the house and do stuff after the COVID quarantine. And there's a private ghost on that one of the other volunteers coordinated and so if you're interested, you can go ahead and pay the money to go ahead and go and go talk there. So we pay the money like everybody else does for private hunt to go out there. And it was me and another volunteer in the back of the attic. And we had three people behind us that were looking at some of the individual rooms upstairs in the article. And the article is an overflow area for the West cellblock and they have there's a one door to come in and one door to go out the same one. So when you go in that door, there's about a 30 degree incline. It's kind of metal, like a metal piece on the floor. That makes an audible boom sound when you go walk through the door. So imagine there's a line full of people walking through the door, you'd hear it again and again and again and again. So we're in the back part of the attic. There's like 1520 people on this private ghost on and myself and another volunteer just looking at the door. It's about seven 730 at night. sun hasn't gone down yet. Three people behind us. We're really not seeing a lot just because you're trying To keep our voices down, and then all of a sudden we heard this audible boom, like you're walking through the attic door to come into the attic. And I'm standing there and I didn't say anything. And he looks up at me. And he goes, do you hear that? I'm like, Yeah, sounds like someone's walking through the door. He's I don't see anything. I'm like, neither. So we sat there for a good 1520 minutes, didn't hear see anything else. And the three people that were behind us, they couldn't believe what we told them. But yeah, that was the last thing that happened back in June. That's eerie. Yeah. Like it being such a distinct sound that you knew exactly what it was. Yeah. And I had heard that it happened before with some of the other ghost hunts that they had the summer, but that was the first time where I was actually up there. So I could verify that it did happen. And thank God somebody was with me, or else they would have said, Oh, you're just making it up? Well, thank, thank God, my friend Marty was with me, because that's who I was with. And when we were up in the attic, and we can both tell you, there was nobody there. And I think the assumption a lot of people have is that whatever kind of paranormal activity is there are sort of, like lingering souls from former inmates. Is that what your deal is for? Yeah, yeah, that's, it's one of the things that I always try to do is I try to get a name if we can possibly get one. And then I'll try to do my best to go ahead and find out who it is. So that I have a story to back it up or find out some other information if we possibly can. But every time you go there, you might get a name of somebody else. That might be in the in the cemetery, or someone who's kind of latched on the electric chair. I mean, it's, there's a lot of stuff going on there. I mean, it's, it's crazy. Some, sometimes you might get a couple of names, you might get a couple of pieces of evidence. Sometimes you might not be so lucky. But I know the last time I was there for a public con was in July. And it seemed like some of the guests were just getting lightning in a bottle. I mean, haircutting pool, shadow figures on the third and third and fourth level of the less cellblock. Some people just saying, I thought this person was over here, I saw this big shadow figure that walked by, and I thought it was my friend and my friend appears right behind me, scare the heck out of me. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is get a little creepy tonight. And so of course, what do you do? You're not gonna go home, you're gonna stay to see what other evidence you can get that night impossible. Right. So intrigued by that point, I would think, yeah, it doesn't happen all the time. But when it happens, you definitely want to go ahead and take advantage of it. Especially when you can get some names behind it me do a little research and see how you can you know, find out more about the life of that potential person? Sure. Yeah. As far as you know about any future plans for the plank, do you know what is it? What they're doing now is what they hope to carry on. And the years ahead, that I really don't know, I know that they've been doing a lot of really neat restorations that's there. I know the Ohio penal Museum, which is on the first floor of the West administration area, just finished last year, a lot of really cool memorabilia, including the Ohio electric chairs over there. They've got some stained glass windows that are there from the the church at The Ohio State Penn. They've got an actual silver door from the Ohio State Penitentiary as well. A lot of other artifacts. I know upstairs in the second level, they've got the Shawshank Redemption area that's that's been updated in the last year with a lot of really great stuff we got from the, from the from the director, Frank Dearborn last year at the reunion. And you mentioned the electric chair. I know you said you did some research on the unfortunate souls who died. Yeah, I kind of stumbled that on again by mistake. I had surgery in 2013. And when I was recouping at home, I was just reading random books on on our library's web websites that you can go and rent books on, download them to your iPad and stuff. And I was reading a book about the death penalty. And they said Ohio was one of the few states that electrics are on display. I said, Well, the one that we have the reformatory was a replica at the time. That wasn't the real deal. So I told some relatives of mine, I live in Cleveland, and they're in the Cleveland police force. And they said, We don't know where it's at. It's not up in here. So then I called a friend of mine who lives in Toledo, who the police officer knows it's not up in here in Toledo because I just called around and asked, I said nobody can have this like in their garage just by accident somewhere. Right. So I was over at The Ohio Historical Society doing some other research and then I just asked a random And it was in the library on the very top floor. I says you wouldn't by any chance know where to go. Next year's had it. What didn't they go? Yeah, it's in a warehouse down the street. Well, we had a Christmas party that night at the reformatory Mansfield. So I was gonna drive there after I was done. So I said, I hate to be pushy. But is there any way I can go see it? Because I don't live here in Columbus. And it'd be really kind of cool. If you could. Let me see it. And as luck would have it, he goes, Yeah, I'm actually getting off for work. I'll just take you there myself. So we went around the corner, drove down the street, it was in a big warehouse that was there. And I thought, oh, my gosh, this thing is Bobby out in public again. I mean, he can't keep it in here. I'd be needed. If you can kind of show the people this is what they used to do back in the day. So and no joke, as we were leaving. He says, Well, let me go ahead and turn on the security alarm before we leave. And he was just stand right here. So I was like, 50 feet from the chair and about 10 feet from the door to go outside and go to our cars. And he literally takes two steps away from me. And the alarm goes off. And and I didn't never been there before. So I thought okay, well, is this did you is somebody else in here in the building? Or did you hit a floater? So those No, this has never happened before. I don't know what happened. And I'm like, Oh, this is interesting. Now now it's kind of doubled my interests to figure out how we can get this out of here in storage. So that that night we are that night we had a Christmas party is reformatory. So I went up to our executive director is Paul, I said, Hey, is there any way we can get rid of the of the replicating, bringing the real thing. And at the time, they had so many other projects on their on their lists? This was just something that wasn't at the front? So he said, Well, I'll think about it. So they had the projects that they were doing. I thought, okay, no big deal. He's got other things to worry about. So about a year later, I got a text from him. And it says, Hey, we're going to go to Columbus and pick up the original aperture on Friday. Do you want to come with us? I'll be asking for a vacation day from work. So I literally went to my boss, who's a great guy, and I says, I gotta get Friday off, we're going to pick up the original electric shares from Columbus, we're taking it over to Mansfield to put in the Ohio penal Museum, and he looks at me and he goes, You know, there's better excuses. You could have given me that Friday off, and I'm like, Okay, well, what's the truth, really, I'm not trying to go. Frontal idea. We went to go pick it up. And in Columbus, we put it in the back of the U haul. And we took it back to Mansfield and we, the replica was moved out, and then we put the real one in. And I would say the creepiness of the building just got doubled. Just putting that in there. But also on our way back, I said, Do we have anywhere where we can find some information about the electric chair, I mean, like, people that passed away any oddities names of people, and we really couldn't find any. So I thought, Well, I think I'm going to go ahead and look myself and try to figure out some information about it. So I started five years ago, trying to figure out information regarding the execution on all 315 people, which took me a very long time to do. And I end up getting pictures and common themes that I've seen. And now my goal is if we get any evidence during the ghost hunt, I want to go on my list and find out some information. For example, we had a ghost hunter that was there. And he said he had an Oculus with them, which picks up dictionary words. And he said he had a name called him that was on his on his Oculus. I said, where are we at? Because we're at all that's right outside. The penal museum was sitting on the stairs and I get hand I'm like, I didn't know what that was. So I look on my list. And there was a 17 year old kid Louis hand, who died in the electric chair. And, but he killed a six year old boy in a farm in swine, Ohio. And when I saw the picture of this kid, I'm like, he doesn't look like he didn't shave when he died in the electric chair. But that night is when I found my first real bit of evidence. And every time I go, my goal is to try to get another name, and another name, but I've only gotten a few. But, um, but at the time, when we got the chair into the reformatory, I had no idea that stuff was going to hang on to this thing. Bringing it into the reformatory. I just thought, okay, chairs and the chairs in a historical place, people will see it, no big deal. Well, then somebody brought up the fact that hey, things kind of attach itself on to other things if you move it, and I thought, Oh my God, what did I do? So I kind of felt terrible because that wasn't my goal is to bring more bad stuff, or bring anything with it to Mansfield I wanted to deal with short for historical purposes so you can see what it looks like to kind of find out some information Got it. But now that it's been there for the last couple of years, my goal is to try to find some more information about it, the more people that have paid their debt to society in there. I think that, you know, the historical value is really clear. And I know that I've heard the theory that sometimes spirits attach themselves to objects. And I guess that might go along with some of what you're describing there. For example, this Lewis hand is still attached to the chair itself. How did you find the information about what he did? The boy that he killed? And Selena was that like in a newspaper article or something? Yeah, I did a really big literature search, because in grad school, my professor said, in order for something to be valued from a research perspective, you gotta have date time in place. Yeah. So I try to get the name of those newspaper article, newspaper article itself, and then where it came from, and then the year to date in the month, so that way, I've got a paper trail. That's right, a paper trail, Tom was kind enough to share what documents he had already uncovered. It's one of many dark tales connected to the actual electric chair, the state used for executions. As Tom mentioned, thanks in part two his own efforts. The chair is now on display there at the Ohio State Reformatory. At least one ghost hunter had detected the name hand while investigating in the area. Tom's extensive research of inmates who died in the chair revealed one young man, a boy by today's standards, Lewis hand, who was executed in 1944. At only 17 years old. Come here, this heart wrenching tale of abandonment, delinquency, and death. Lewis Vernon hand was born March 8 1926, in the tiny dark county village of N Sonia. His parents soon separated, and for reasons left unclear, the state took custody of him and his sister Dorothy, three years as senior Dorothy was listed in census records as quote feeble minded. Lewis was only 18 months old at the time, they became Ward's of the state. For most of his childhood, the hand siblings lived at the Darke county Children's Home north of Greenville, Ohio. This institution was a quote repository for unwanted indigent, handicapped and incorrigible children. It was essentially an orphanage. However few children were ever actually adopted. Many were rented out as child laborers on farms, and as domestic servants and homes. There was little oversight, and it's believed that physical and sexual abuse were common occurrences. The facility was in full operation until 1972. When the structure was demolished, you can still find a little cemetery at the spot where it wants stood containing unmarked graves of forgotten children who never grew into adulthood. Whatever life Lewis and his sister may have endured during this time, is now known only to the ages. It's reasonable to suspect that Louis suffered greatly the grisly crime he would later commit and confess to may have been born of the pain, abuse and abandonment he endured as a child. The story I'm about to tell you is tragic in so many ways, and it illustrates just how early trauma can have effects that are wide reaching, leaving multiple victims. Louis lived at the Darke county children's home until the age of 14, when he was apprehended while trying to steal an automobile. It's possible that he intended to use it to escape from the institution. When presenting at court to stand for the crime. A judge took pity on the boy and sentenced him to an 18 month stay at the boys Industrial School in Lancaster. This was a radical program for its time, offering juveniles diversion from the criminal justice system. Instead of detention, Lewis would be trained in a trade while living in a cottage with other boys. The school was held up as an example by other juvenile justice systems across the country. One of its most famous graduates was none other than Bob Hope. The comedian donated generously to the school Throughout his long career. Unfortunately, Lewis his time there wasn't enough to set him on a different course. He'd been released from the program in April 1944, but was soon arrested by the FBI for stealing another vehicle, then taking it across the Indiana State Line. That brought him before a federal judge in Toledo, who sentenced him to probation. The main requirement was that he worked at the farm of Mr. Rufus Stover of Solon, Ohio. Lewis his first day as a farmhand was on May 27. From a very early age, he had been required to work doing jobs he hated. He made it through the first month on the farm, the tensions were brewing. The young man surly attitude never left him. He'd grown resentful, and angry, and who could much blame him. He'd been abandoned by his parents, and left to suffer in an unregulated orphanage. By the time the state got around to teaching him a trade, he'd lost the interest. He was inclined toward a life of escape freedom, and the chance to do and go where he pleased. Richard, the former six year old son was an only child. He'd looked up to Louis from the start, and had taken to following them around the place. Come the afternoon of July 3, he talked Lewis into playing some pitch and catch the to plan to meet at Richard's grandfather's farm across the road. But when the time finally came, and the young boy came skipping across the road, something had shifted between them. Richard's usual admiration of the teenager had turned to amusement. Just the day before Lewis had forgotten to grease a call to Packer. The mistake resulted in a lecture from Rufus one that was delivered in front of the child. Now, Richard T's Lewis for the oversight. This made me mad Louis would later confessed to investigators. I grabbed a claw hammer and hit him on the head three or four times. I also hit him on the neck and over the heart. Mercer County Sheriff Dwight Robin Bush told reporters that Louis admitted to having done the deed with the flat expression, with no attempt at concealing it. After beating him to death with a hammer, Lewis stuffed Richards body beneath some bales of straw in the grandfather's barn. He then calmly stepped into the farmer's car and drove away. The family thought nothing of the boys his absence, as they had planned to take a drive that afternoon and had gained permission to do so. Louis would drive 40 miles south to the seat of the county where he was born. There, he'd stopped at the Greenville movie theater. He'd catch a show, and then spend the rest of the evening dozing in the car while parked in the theaters thought. When the two hadn't returned to the farm for several hours, the family began to grow worried. Fearing something awful, they took to searching both properties. The horrific discovery of Poor Richard's body was made around 10pm That night, they knew Louis had done it. Within minutes, law enforcement from around the region was on the lookout for him. By the wee small hours of the morning, on July 4, Louis had awoken from asleep. He spotted a patrol car turning into the lot where he was yet parked. And he turned on the ignition. The engine roared and he sped off. He made it as far as the county line that was soon run off the road and then apprehended without further incident. He told the arresting officers that he was on probation for auto theft, and that he just killed the son of the farmer he'd been working for for the past five weeks. Once in jail, Lewis told his jailers that he'd done it and that he didn't believe in crying over spilled milk. Weeks later, a jury would find him guilty following the testimony of multiple police officers who'd heard his confession on the day of his arrest. The jury recommended no mercy in the sentencing. Following their instruction. Common Pleas Court Judge Raymond younger, would swiftly sentence him to death. In response, a stoic Lewis would simply grin and state that he had nothing to say. Get back in his cell he touted to guards that he could quote take whatever they could dish out. He was the first ever person condemned to death from Mercer County. Louis's execution was set for January 15 1944. In the intervening months, his attorneys worked tirelessly to save his life. He spent his time on death row at the Ohio penitentiary in Columbus pacing in his cell while reading. prison guards said the boy seemed resigned to his fate, and noted that he had embraced the Catholic faith. He stopped talking to news reporters and received no visitors. That is until one day on November 17, when his biological father and stepmother came to see him. Rain and hand had continued living in Ansonia all those years. He had been employed by the Big Four railroad crossing as a watchman all that time, and he hadn't regained custody of his children. Lewis's bio biological mother had been missing for years. Her whereabouts were never determined. With only three days to go on January 12. Louis, his attorneys would file a plea for clemency from Ohio's Governor John Bricker. It was quickly denied. And the remaining days he would see the prison chaplain father Kelly, Lewis would memorize the act of contrition, a Catholic prayer that begs God's forgiveness. On the day of his execution, he would repeat it in a loop. As the priest led him from his cell into the death chamber. His mumbled prayer would never cease, as he was strapped into the chair, as his sentence was read aloud, as he was asked if he had any final words. Oh my God, I am heartedly sorry for having offended thee. And I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell. But most of all, because they offend the, my God, who are all good and deserving of all my love, I firmly resolve with the help of grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen. The sheriff, the prosecutor, and three newspaper reporters witnessed his final gruesome moments, as it took seven minutes and multiple shocks to kill him. Is it possible that the Forlorn spirit of Lewis hand remains attached to the ghastly device that took his life? Is his ghost one of the many that have found refuge in the looming structure? Will we ever understand why this historic building seems to draw souls both living and dead from far and wide? When it was first built in 1886, the Ohio State Reformatory was a transformative force in our state's penal system. wrongdoers who were sent there were viewed as people in need of guidance and reform. With some training and rehabilitation, all could be set straight. None were beyond redemption. And for decades, that attitude prevailed. This stately structure whose walls resemble a gothic cathedral seem to elevate the wayward souls within then came outward forces with squelched the progressive minded reforms. By the early 20th century, offenders were sent to prisons that were a little more than warehouses. Some would argue this truth remains yet today. reform efforts like those made by the founders of the Ohio State, reformatory got swallowed up by the tsunami of offenders hardened by overcrowding. By the time the Ohio State Reformatory was finally forcibly closed in 1990, countless offenders had suffered trauma, lost direction, and we're left beyond the reach of redemption. The dark and heavy tail of Lewis hand encapsulates this sad truth. Had this young man been given the love protection and support deserved by all children, it's hard to know what other path he may have chosen. As it turned out, the fates he suffered as a child likely contributed to the violent rage that ended the life of an innocent six year old. When we fail to support the most vulnerable among us, we're complacent of the crimes, which results if there's a lesson to be gleaned from this legendary location, It's an illustration of what happens when we turn a blind eye to the least among us, and let our fellow humans flail and flounder. In the end, we all pay the price. Perhaps that's what the spirits are trying to tell us. Will we heed their message This concludes today's episode on the Ohio State Reformatory. I hope you've enjoyed it. If so, please write a review on Apple podcasts. It helps others find the show. You can find Ohio folklore at Ohio folklore.com And on Facebook. And as always, keep wondering