Ohio Folklore

Serpent Mound

Melissa Davies Episode 26

When we think of history in Ohio, most of us consider the past two to three hundred years.  Few know that one location in Ohio's southern hills holds prehistoric secrets that have yet to be explained.  The Serpent Mound of Adams County.

Come hear the tale of the world's largest effigy mound, here in our backyard.  One local Ohioan and resident expert, Ms. Beth Jenkins, shares her personal connection to the place, as well as the knowledge she's gained in her role as the History Preservation Manager for the memorial itself.

This remarkable piece of earthen art stirs wonder in many.  It stirs questions of both earthly and spiritual realms.  Come consider what the ancients are trying to tell us...

If you enjoy this episode, please rate, review and subscribe to Ohio Folklore on your chosen podcast platform.  You can also find Ohio Folklore at:

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And as always, keep wondering...

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Hello and welcome to Ohio folklore. I'm your host Melissa Davies. I'm so glad you could join me. For today's episode, I've had the joy of discovering an Ohio site unlike any other. It's one of only 19 us locations on the World Heritage committee's tentative list for a UNESCO designation. Other sites on the list include Mount Vernon, Ellis Island and the Brooklyn Bridge. What Ohio location could possibly carry the same level of historical and cultural import as these iconic spots across the country? What small corner of Ohio and bodies a cultural significance that makes world organizations take notice? Who knew that we Ohioans enjoy a unique connection to prehistoric peoples that once roamed our southern hills. They left their mark for all to see, for us to see. This earth and monument a dramatic work of art rising from the ground has lasted for more than a millennium. But its meaning is one of Ohio's great mysteries. I'm talking about the legend of the Serpent Mound. It's situated outside the village of peoples in Adams County. First time visitors are usually struck with awe and wonder. Using nothing but the very earth beneath their feet. In ancient people created a giant slithering serpent more than 1300 feet in length, the tail and is coiled in concentric circles, perhaps a base from which the serpent might pounce. Its graceful midsection undulates toward an oval shaped object. Its jaws are wide about to swallow what looks like an egg. This enigmatic and some believe mystic location, serves as the world's largest surviving prehistoric effigy mound. Today, the site is lovingly preserved and maintained, the grass is cut to keep the mastery of the artwork and full view. Facilities are placed nearby to accommodate guests from all over the world, including a museum, paved walkways and picnic tables. It's all too easy to spend a day in the shadow of humans who existed long before Ohio was Ohio. But let's imagine how it looked to those in the 19th century. Consider how it must have felt after roaming hill after hill of wooded forests and then stumbling on an earthen piece of art rising to meet your feet. The Serpent Mound the name dubbed by white settlers, was first publicized by a pair of surveyors from chilla coffee in 1846. To then Efrem Squire and Edwin Davis would go on to write about it in their book, the ancient monuments of the Mississippi Valley. It would be published and distributed by the renowned Smithsonian Institution. And lucky for us one copy of the book would land in the hands of Frederick Ward Putnam, an archaeologist from Harvard. He would come to devote his life to the preservation of Ohio's mounds, specifically, the Serpent Mound. To our great fortune, Putnam left behind a personal record of his own discoveries. he chronicled his personal connection to this unparalleled piece of heritage. Come, let's hear the story through his experiences. It was September 1883. And Putnam in his four colleagues began an epic investigation of Ohio southern mounds Serpent Mound, the largest and most majestic of them all was the first stop. The group forwarded Brush Creek from the west and soon arrived at the rugged outcropping of rocks high above their heads. They pulled their wagon to the bank and started the slow process of scaling a rocky cliff. They had to hack away at the thick brush and undergrowth as they scrambled onward anticipation building for what would greet them once they reached the top. To hear it in his own words, Putnam described it thus, the most singular sensation of all and admiration overwhelmed me at the sudden realization of my long cherished desire. For here before me, was the mysterious work of an unknown people who seemingly most sacred place we had invaded. As the last rays of the sun, glancing from the distant hilltops cast their long shadows over the valley. I mused on the probabilities of the past and narrower seem to come to me a picture of a distant time of people with strange customs. And with it came the demand for an interpretation of this mystery. The unknown must become known Putnams all consuming curiosity would persist the rest of his life. Indeed, he was driven to not only search for answers, but also preserve what remained. On the same evening of his first visit, he made arrangements with a private landowner, Mr. Lovett, to clear the sight of underbrush and trees, so that their work might be seen in all its glory, in Putnams words, by noon of the following day, the clearing was roughly made, and the view thus obtained of the serpent and the egg, led to a still stronger desire to know more, and a resolve to do all in my power to preserve this singular structure, which seems so strangely transplanted from the mythology of the East. On returning to Harvard, Putnam would make the preservation of Serpent Mound one of his life's goals. He began efforts to raise funds in earnest. And two years later, in 1885, he would return to find it on the brink of destruction. The surrounding fields had been cleared for farming and plowing processes had begun to degrade the structure with renewed vigor and with the help of fellow archaeologist LSC Fletcher, the to raise the funds needed to purchase the land outright to the tune of $6,000. The purchase would ultimately include several acres of land along the new road leading from Hillsboro to people's the nearest railroad stations and the whole of Serpent Mound Park, of which Brush Creek forms the western boundary. For the following four years, Putnam would pitch a tent to camp at the site spring through autumn, he would excavate sections of the site, revealing insights never before considered. This included investigations of the Serpent Mound and nearby conical burial mounds, which were found to hold the remains of ancient peoples. And one such mound, he discovered grave goods that pointed to the presence of the Edina, a prehistoric people who existed from 800 to 100 BCE, when the excavation was complete, Putnam work to restore the mounds to their original state. Putnam would go on to find and catalogue various artifacts, including stone implements flint knives and tools made of deer bones and antlers. His investigations of the conical burial mounds would find charcoal and ash, suggesting burials of fire and the right of human sacrifice as a religious offering. His conclusion about the site after years of impassioned fundraising and digging through the Earth to find answers was thus exploration has shown us that this serpent was made many centuries ago. And it is evident that a structure of such magnitude so carefully planned and executed was intended for some great purpose deeply affecting the people who made it. What other than a religious motive could have been sufficient. assuming this to be the case, we naturally give it the meaning of a religious shrine to which the people came at specified times to worship their gods. Here, near the sacred shrine, ceremonies of great import have taken place. Individuals of importance have been buried in connection with ceremonies of fire, and in two instances, at least, accompanied by the burning of human bodies, possibly in human sacrifice, that constant accessory of many ancient face, and later times, the shrine was still a place of resort, possibly as one held sacred and myths and legends. And finally, a few of the scattered bands of the last century made their habitation on the spot, probably without any legendary knowledge or thought of the earlier worshipers at the shrine, overgrown and hidden by a forest. Now another race has come and the old train cleared of rubbish is again held sacred, not for the ancient and awful rights, but for the study of future generations, when a wider knowledge of the past shall lead to a better knowledge of that of our own. It was one man singular obsession that Frederick Putnam that ultimately allowed for the preservation of this truly unique Ohio site. His efforts offered the first glimpse into the secrets of the Serpent Mound. But his discoveries wouldn't be the last. nearly 100 years later, in 1996, an archaeological team under the supervision of the Ohio Historical Society reopened Putnams excavations, technology and research methods had progressed considerably by that point. When the team performed radiocarbon dating on pieces of discovered charcoal, they found an interesting mix of results. Some pieces dated from about 1070 ad, more than a century after the Edina were known to exist, other pieces dated much earlier from the very beginning of the Edina period. And perhaps even earlier than that. It is believed that the Serpent Mound and its surrounding burial mounds are born of an amalgamation of various ancient peoples, some of which have likely never been identified. We do know that it's most likely that the surrounding burial mounds originate from an early Edina people, but due to rich information gathered through radiocarbon dating, we know that a later prehistoric culture the fourth ancient people came to inhabit this site. Many believes that the fourth ancient were the creators of the Serpent Mound itself, or that they perhaps chose to refurbish it for their own purposes. And who can say how many countless others not unlike ourselves, discovered and rediscovered the site again and again. It seems that wonders and adventure seekers alike have been flocking to the Serpent Mound for millennia. I had the great fortune of connecting with someone who deeply understands the draw this place has for so many. Beth Jenkins is the history preservation manager for the Serpent Mound state Memorial. She first came to the site as a young child on a school field trip, as have so many others. She recalls the wonder at generated for her and the enduring passion that led her to pursue a career in securing its preservation. Come hear her story. I think the first time that I saw it was probably from the observation tower looking down upon it. And I had a lot of emotions that went through my mind. I think the first thing I thought of was that it was it was scary. It was big. And but yet it was it was I was curious by it for the fact that you know, here was this strange object that was literally sitting on top of the surface covered in grass. So it was it was amazing. I've I've never forgotten about it. You know, I said would go back every year. And it's just kind of been a part of my childhood growing up, I would say. That makes sense. Because you know, when we're kids, everything, that's everything looks really big. And then we get older. And sometimes that changes. But I'm sure that your experience is similar for a lot of school aged kids that do the field trips there. And it does really look like rising out of the earth or Yeah, yeah, very unlike other other works of art, or things that are more modern that you would see. I think it's children, maybe adults, I think that most people, at least I have found, you know, are kind of scared of snakes. And so, you know, we all have that fear, you know, of getting a seeing a snake or getting bitten by a snake. You know, we're always as children, we were always born, you know, just always watch where you walk and stab and, and so I think I think snakes can be somewhat intimidating to people. So they're very fear inducing. It's almost like instinctive, I think, for a lot of people to run away from us think. So maybe, you know, even these prehistoric Native Americans had that same reverence for the animal. I mean, that's just the total guests on my way possible. Very possible. Indeed. For my listeners who've never been there, could you sort of set the scene of you know what it's like to be there now? Yeah, if I sure can. So basically, we are located and the historic and beautiful Adams County, Ohio, and county. Basically it borders right up to the Ohio River. So we are in southern Ohio Serpent Mound, which is actually called Serpent Mound state Memorial. It lies within the northern portion of Ohio's bluegrass region. And so basically the area is sometimes called the Lexington plane and it's after, of course the the famous city in Kentucky, Lexington, which is also in the bluegrass region. So of course it's divided you know, by the Ohio River, soil, plant life and the animals that found in you know, in this region, they're very similar to those that are in Northern Kentucky and other parts of Ohio. You know, we we have two beautiful park like setting it's, of course nowadays in the 21st century. If it's manicured, you know, we keep it mowed. And we have a lot of beautiful trees that are up there. I know that there are things like red cedar thickets, or barons and like reminisce prairie patches that exists there that sit, we're on the slopes of the north east side of the effigy mounds up there as well. It's very wooded, there's beech trees, just to kind of get there's a lot of flora and fauna there. But as you come up off of State Route 73, and you're coming up the drive, first thing you will see on the right is the old superintendents house, and back in the probably the 1930s. That was where the caretaker of the park, that's where he would have lived, or she would have lived with their family. And as you come, as you come up to the parking lot, you will see two very adorable buildings that are built out of stone. And those have historical significance, as well as every structure that is on that site. Those buildings were all built during the 1930s. And they were part of the WPA, or the three C's. So those were New Deal programs that were implemented by President Roosevelt during the question. A lot of people don't realize that they they see those little buildings, and they just, you know, they're cute, and they are very unique. But what people don't realize is a lot of those buildings were made from material that had actually come from older, older structures. So for example, the restrooms, the stone that they were built of had come from an old early 1800 Church here in the state of Ohio. So, you know, those were kind of considered recyclable materials that was reused. So then as you as you park and you exit your vehicle, you start walking toward the museum Center and the gift shop, which again, that building is also it used to be a concession stand, but it has been turned into our gift shop and visitor center. And then you're basically you're on your way, you're on your way to where the great Serpent Mound the effigy, lies, and everything's beautiful, lots of trees, it's, it's just a beautiful place to see. But what of course, once you get to the observation tower, that's when you really take and this huge breath of just all, and you realize that what you're looking at is something that is, there's nothing like it, it is it takes your breath. The first, if you see it, it's that amazing. And it's pretty much a park like setting it's very beautiful, peaceful place as well, there is a picnic shelter on the property that a lot of people use to this day for gatherings and family reunions. Right. It is something when you see pictures of it online, you don't think this is in Ohio, and the humans just seem so out of place. You know, a lot of our history, we think maybe goes back two or 300 years. And that was really something can feel it's more of an ancient quality to it. It is it is and you know, it's amazing, because I think I think a lot of people in Ohio are very aware that we do have a very rich American Indian history. Here where I'm located at especially more and more My home is in Central, a little bit of South Central Ohio, not too far from the wonderful city of Chillicothe, Ohio. And of course, right now that's that's famous not only for its prehistoric American Indian sights, but for the outdoor drama to come to, when I try to see that every year. It's one of my favorite things to do. But a lot of people when they think of Ohio, and especially American Indians, they tend to think of a woodland Indian prairie. So you have the Shawnees and, and the mangoes and things like that. So, but there's not been a lot of information about the prehistoric. So we're talking about the mound builders, a very a group of people that we absolutely do not know really much about, even through all the years of excavation digs, testing. We just don't know a lot about them because they did not leave us a written history or record. So they are very intriguing. I mean, we obviously know that they were here and they live here. But we just don't know a lot about them. Right. And if I understand right, from what I've been researching so far, there's maybe a couple series about whether it was the Edina or the Ford agent. People. Yes, that is correct. That is correct. So you know, one of the questions I get a lot of times is who built Surface mount and why. And from the research that was conducted by professional archaeologists, we have concluded that it most most likely was built. The effigy itself is probably going to say, we're going to date that for ancient culture. And now there are also three mounds down on the property, those nouns are considered to be burial mounds or conical shaped mounds. So those however, from what archaeologists have done excavations on those have concluded they're probably older, Edina, and we're looking at Edina culture. So the idea is, you know, what had been a culture that would have been before the four ancients before ancient would be considered the last, they would be the last prehistoric American Indian culture. So that's what we know. Now. Can I say that? 100%. That's, that's, that's the story of circuit now. Sort of House of mystery. It is a complete mystery. I don't think I don't know if we'll ever really know. So the viticulture, we're looking at 800 BC to to 100 A D. and for ancient culture we're looking at at 1000 ad 215 50 or 1550 ad. That's been a long, long time ago. And again, they know we there is no language that exists. You know, at least we know, Cherokee, for example, the Cherokee had a written language. And, but we just don't know, we we just do not know anything about these cultures. But we do know one thing they were here, they were here on, they were here in this in the southern Ohio lands. circuit now it has many facets to the story. So you know that the famous I guess you would call them amateur archaeologist team will be Squire and Davis, was actually had first come up to the area around the 1840s. And and they just had to see it. And once that happened, it seemed to open up a lot of curiosity. In fact, Dr. Henry Ford Putnam sometime in the the the 1880s, from he was he was a archaeologist from Harvard University. And so he reads about this in the Squire and Davis book. And he decided to make a trip from the east. And you know, he was just amazed by it. In fact, you know, Putnam is really sponsible. For what you see today, it's Serpent Mound, he was concerned about the site, he was worried about the site when he first sees, you know, the area, it was owned by a local Adams County farming family. And he just had lived with this thing, they really didn't know what it was, they just they lived with it, they would, you know, plant their fields near it. And Putnam decided he decided it was a treasure, it was something that needs to be protected. And he returns back to Massachusetts, he raises some $6,000 and is able to buy the farm basically. And then that day forward, it has been in the care and the protection of the Ohio History Connection, which is located in Columbus, Ohio. So when he first saw it, it was very overgrown a lot of vegetation, plants. So it took some time to be able to care for it, nurture it and bring it back. And so we can think we can say Dr. Putnam for for his foresight to be able to, to rescue it, basically. And and and that's what that's what we are doing today. We are, we are the stewards and the protectors of it, and to be able to keep it maintained for for prosperity. And that's the dimension of the arc of Appalachian. Yeah, so the Ark of Achalasia is a, they actually manage the site, the Ohio district connection, which is a nonprofit organization, they own the property, they own everything that is there. And the Ark of Appalachian actually serves as a contracted manager for the site. So basically the to work together to be able to, to maintain the park to care for the car to be able to offer programming for the public. So both there's very, very good organizations that do a lot here for for the state of Ohio. You know, it's a mission, like you said from Dr. Apartments, that you both work in concert with each other, to preserve this for so many generations, hopefully moving forward. Yeah, it is an amazing place. It's, you know, a lot of people come there for different reasons. We have we have folks that come there for the beauty of the site for the respite it's a very peaceful place. I would love to ask our visitors You know, what, how have you enjoyed your time here? You know, what will you take away stripped it down. And a lot of people, especially, we get a lot of visitors who come from not only this region, but we get visitors who come to us from all over the world, I have had the chance to meet, especially when we did we were open in March, I had a chance to meet some amazing people who come from European countries. And and you say, Well, why why would someone from Russia come to circuit now. And that is because circuit noun is in history books, if we know this in history books in China, and places like Germany, and in England, and just all over the world, we are, we are not only a state, historical fight, but we are an attraction to the world. So we have so many visitors that come and visit us and it's so great to get to talk to them, and to get to find out from them put what they take away from visiting Serpent Mound state Memorial. We have we have those who come up there for the history for the beauty. And of course, you have those who have a, you know, some people call it a religious experience. Some believes that Serpent Mound has healing abilities to it. I think if we go back in time, and we look at a character who was known as the Reverend Landon West, he was the local minister there in the area. And he interpreted the effigy basically as representing the serpent of the biblical Garden of Eden. So if you look at the Bible, and we go to the book of Genesis, and it talks about, you know, creation talks about, you know, Adam and Eve, and it talks about, you know, the garden, the Garden of Eden, you know, a lot of people again, I think they go back to what does what is a snake or serpent? What does it mean? And kind, I have wonderful friends who, you know, are naturalist and they adore snakes, they look at them as amazing creatures that serve a purpose. And I know, you know, my dad's always telling me, you know, never kill a black snake because he's so beneficial, you know, don't hurt him and take care of them. And, and these these creatures do, they do serve a purpose. And of course, we have, you know, venomous snakes and, but but, you know, with with the effigy mound, you know, from the way that it looks, it looks like it's grasping at straws, this egg shaped fruit. And Reverend Landon, he took this turn out to me it looks like an oval, but he interpreted as it was, it has an egg shaped fruit, and he felt was from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which is from the Bible as well. He his theory was that he believed the noun, the effigy Man was created by God, or by the people who inspired God to mark the actual location of Eden. And to remind people basically, our fall into sin so so you do you have individuals who come there for that reason, and it's, it is a, you know, to some people with something that's frightening, and some people see it as a beautiful piece of art, as well. We have people who, you know, who are who practice kind of a new age mindset. They believe that it coincides with like an astrological Harmonic Convergence, basically. So they're, you know, it's, it's, it's all kind of thing, you know, but I mean, I think that, you know, people of course, they're going to take away from it what they want to I think that's what makes it very special serpent now is, it is a memorial that recognizes our prehistoric American Indian cultures that that are here, no more, they don't exist anymore. And but, you know, I think that a lot of people like to romanticize Serpent Mound, you know, it's just, it depends on what how, what you take away from the site. I think that's that's how people see it. It does seem to be a sort of a blank canvas, maybe, you know, like you were describing with the Reverend Landon West and the currency, maybe understand that through his worldview and experience, right, and other folks with different backgrounds would interpret it differently. But I guess that's what great art does is it gives you an opportunity to get in touch with some of those forces that try it, you know, it's funny, because push with our interpretation there at the site. So we we do talk about, you know, well what was it built for? What are some things and, of course, I would say the strongest theory that we have is that it could have been built, it could have been created as a form a form of a calendar to be able to just mark the different seasons. We have, for example, June 20, which is coming up very Soon, we will be, you know, celebrating summer solstice, you know, all across, you know, the world basically. And, you know, if it's a beautiful day and the sun is out, you know, sometime in the late, late afternoon, early evening, and the sun is beginning to set, the sun will on that day, it will set directly over the serpent's head. So, you know, it's possible, it's possible that as a theory as why it's built, it was built to be able to let those those cultures know, okay, we are basically, we're halfway through our growing season. So now it's time to prepare for our harvest, and it's going to be time to prepare to, to possibly to move to be able to go south, where the weather will be warmer. So, you know, a lot of people don't realize it, but the prehistoric cultures, they were very intelligent, very highly intelligent people. You know, we think of these prehistoric, kind of like cavemen or something, but they watch the sky, and that's very key in this, we today, as people of this 21st century, we do not watch our sky, we do not watch the stars like these people would have done. And, you know, they they had to use every resource, you know, that they had to be able to survive, they relied on each other, they relied on the land, they relied on animals, you know, a lot of our, our tools that we have on display in the museum are simply things like rock, you know, rocks and stones and shells and, and it's amazing to see it a set of deer antlers and attach them you know, with some natural fibers such as different different weed plant material and attach that to a fish, you have a rape you have a glorified rake that you can use that as a tool. So, so yeah, it's it's just amazing. It's an amazing place, you know, to to visit and to see and to kind of, you know, to be able to come up and experience it. Again, these were very highly intelligent people. And it's just such a shame that there was no written language I would have, it would it would have blocked unlocked so many answers for us if we would have had something like that. If only I think that we can never stop we can never stop learning about about serpent now. I think as those who are, you know, advocates for Serpent Mound, those who are caring for that, and that would, you know, include our Ohio History Connection as well and, and different teams of researchers. It is still unexplainable to this day, you know, we no one can really give a strong definite answer as to what it is why it is, you know, what was it used for the site, they'll have a lot of secrets to it, and the more that we're able to be able to research, it will keep unlocking its mysteries. Mysteries indeed, if only we knew the answer, I'd love nothing more than to be able to provide you with a tidy, satisfying explanation of how this magnificent structure came to be. Whatever the motives of the original builders, the Serpent Mound has come to mean many different things to many people. Perhaps it's a tribute to the stealthy power of the snake, silent and insidious, swallowing defenseless prey and one gulp. Or perhaps it's an earthly explanation of a solar eclipse, a befuddling event during which the very Son was swallowed up by an unseen force. Whatever its original purpose, it has drawn visitors for centuries, and one yearly event is particularly popular. As Beth mentioned, the geographic positioning of the site is laid according to astronomical events. Each year at the summer solstice, the longest day of the year, the setting sun will fall directly at the head of the serpent. This event is celebrated at Serpent Mound with live music, engaging lectures and a solstice feast. The celebrations finale is the setting sun lowering in the blazing sky, exactly where the serpent tells it. And at the opposite end of the year, our shortest day the winter solstice, the serpent's coiled tail directs our attention to exactly where the sun will rise. It's a sign that winter is halfway through, and soon planting season will be upon us. Get the structure has an even greater astronomical complexity. The undulating curves of its midsection correlate with lunar phases. In addition, consider that Haley's Comment appeared in the era 1066 Only a few years before carbon dating identified the Serpent Mound creation in 1070. This event would have dazzled and frightened anyone looking up into the night sky. There's reason to assume ancient humans were trying desperately to understand the mysterious heavenly objects above their heads. And the unusual aspects of the story don't end there. The site itself is located at the edge of an ancient crater likely caused when an asteroid collided with the Earth's surface nearly 300 million years ago. In 2003, geologists from The Ohio State University confirmed that they had uncovered data that reveals that the Serpent Mound sits on the edge of the four mile crater. While erosion has erased visible traces of the crater itself, examination of sedimentary rock from the site confirms its remarkable history from long before humans ever existed. A museum housing archaeological artifacts and historical accounts of this remarkable site has existed there since 1967. The museum features exhibits on the effigies form, and a description of the processes of constructing the mound, a pathway whines around the base of the mound for easy access around the site. An elevated observation platform allows visitors a full view of the structure from above. So I hope some day you have the chance to experience the Serpent Mound for yourself. Once you do, you can count yourself among countless other humans who have stood in awe of it. Some were 19th century scientists desperate to preserve it. Some were early surveyors exploring the wilderness of the Ohio territory. Some were Native Americans, who likely discovered the structure long before white settlers laid eyes on it. And some were people who existed in the days before history was even recorded. They were of an enigmatic tribe that lived off the land and wondered at the stars. Perhaps they revered an animal with no legs that could move with the speed of a rushing stream. Perhaps they marveled at itself. Perhaps they sought to understand the world around them more fully, and they thought an earthen mound visible from the heavens might just communicate what they had yearned to know. We'll never know for sure what the builders of the Serpent Mound meant when they constructed it. But there is one thing of which we can be sure. This world is full of wondrous and unexplainable things. Standing in awe of and trying to figure them out, is part of what makes us human. It's what connects us to humans from arrows gone by, maybe someday, those who come after us will marvel at the remnants of our own monuments. And the mysteries remain. This concludes today's episode on the legend of the Serpent Mound. I hope you've enjoyed it. If so, please consider leaving a review on Apple podcast that helps others find the show. You can also find Ohio folklore at Ohio folklore.com And on Facebook. And as always, keep wondering