Rachel: Hello. Hi. I'm Rachel. I'm Hannah. And this is the Sinister South podcast. It is indeed. How are we all? Yeah.  Good.

Hannah: Good. Very good. That's lovely to hear. I've got my Jumping straight in. Sorry, I didn't go for it.

Rachel: No, no, I'm happy for you to jump straight in.

Hannah: I'm so convinced that every time we do the chatty bit up top, I'm really dull. And I'm like, Nope, nothing's happened. I've never seen anyone in my life. So I was like, came prepped. I was like, Oh, I've got news. 

Rachel: Well, I'd love to hear the news. We haven't even said what the podcast is about yet.

Hannah: Oh, no, we probably should do that, shouldn't we?

Rachel: This is Sinister South.  If you've managed to make it to episode, whatever one this is, is it? I think it's nine, we are a true crime podcast that focuses on crimes that have taken place in South London. And we do it because we are both from South London and have lived here for the majority of our lives. So I feel like we have some sort of authority.

Hannah: I knew you were going to say authority. I was like, Rachel, don't say authority.

Rachel: Is that the wrong word?

Hannah: Well, no, it's the right word in terms of, you know, authority. how to use sentences, but it's the  wrong word for us.

Rachel: Well, no, because don't they say, right, they say you have to spend to be an expert at something is in it like 10, 000 hours or something you have to spend on something. I've said something a lot in that sentence.  But yeah, it's 10, 000 hours you've got to spend on something to become an expert in it. And I reckon that we could probably say we spent 10, 000 hours  knowing South London.  There we go. We're the authority. We are the authority on South London crime.  And quote but no, so that's what this podcast is.

Oh, it's all gone Pete Tong before we've even started today. What's going on? There's something in the water today. I swear to God.  Well, on that, what is your news? Cause that's more exciting.

Hannah: It's literally going to sound so.  like, nothing now. I was just gonna be like, my brother's back! Yay! My brother lives in Bristol most of the time, but now he is here for a visit, and I just saw him, so that's nice.

Rachel: How's he doing?

Hannah: Yeah, he's good! I think I don't know who gets more like, serotonin and kind of that feeling of, oh it's dopamine that makes you safe, isn't it? Ted, the dog, or my mum.  When we're all under one roof. Like when all the kids are in one place, she's like,  I can breathe now. 

Rachel: Oh bless. I've not had very much exciting stuff happen to me. No? Recently. No, not really. Prepping for the kids birthday parties because  Birthday season is upon me. Yes. I've got to figure out what on earth I'm gonna get them.  'cause I've, there's too, I'm sorry. I know I'm women of the people again, but  ,

Hannah: do they need bigger wallets or, slightly bigger diamond shoes?

Rachel: Slightly larger diamond shoes. No, they've honestly, I know this is gonna sound so awful to say, but like, they have so much shit already. Mm. And like. believe it or not, I do not live in a mansion. I live in a, in a standard house and I don't have any more room for any more nonsense.

Hannah: So whatever it's got to be, it's got to be small.

Rachel: It's got to be small or what I kept saying to people last year was like, just Transcribed by https: otter. ai Pay for them to do something. Yeah. Like take to, I dunno, take 'em to the cinema. They love cinema or go to the theatre or just take them anything for a weekend somewhere. Like, I don't care. That's care.

Hannah: That's more of a present for you, right?

Rachel: I think it's definitely a present for them. If I happen to maybe get joy off of it, then you know, who's that hurting?

Hannah: Fair enough.

Rachel: But yeah, I keep forgetting to print out the party invitations for the youngest one  and it's her birthday first. So I've got to sort all of that out But yeah, other than that like life just be life'in. It's all fairly fairly  Good in the hood. I was gonna say...

Hannah: 10,000 hours to be an expert. One sentence to ruin it all 

Rachel: Is that not what the children are saying these days? But yeah, it's your turn this week. It is. Who have you got for me? What are we talking about?

Hannah: I am going to be talking about the murder and surrounding case of Daniel Morgan.  A name that I think probably will resonate with people, but you might not know the full story.

Right. So, as usual, all the references will be In the show notes including the Justice for Daniel page which his brother runs.

But yeah. So, on the 10th of March, 1987, Daniel Morgan was found slumped behind his BMW in the car park of the Golden Lion pub in Sydenham, South London.  His murder has never been solved. Despite there being five Police investigations. Five.

Rachel: Five!

Hannah: Oh, yeah.

Rachel: Okay. It's gonna be one of them then.

Hannah: So, born in Singapore in 1949, Daniel Morgan was the middle child of an army officer and his wife, who had settled in Singapore after the war.

Daniel was born with a club foot, which required extensive medical treatment, and as such, the young family decided to move back to the UK to Wales in particular.  Like, to access the NHS and, like, kind of get back to their  support network and everything as well. So, yeah, back in Wales, Daniel becomes a big brother to Jane, and the family settle into their new, into their new life.

In total, Daniel acquired nine operations on his legs. I know, that's a lot. It's a lot of time as well, that's why I keep thinking, well, what I thought about when I was researching.  Nine operations is a lot of operations, but it's also a lot of recovery time for someone so young.

Rachel: Oh, bless him. 

Hannah: But, even as a young boy, Daniel was determined not to let his health dictate what he could or couldn't do.

He went on to play scrum half in the school rugby team and built his own kayak and sailed it in Gwent. 

Rachel: Oh, as you do. There you go. Nice little bit of, that's very Ron Swanson, Parks and Recs, isn't it?

Hannah: Build your own kayak. Yeah, why not? I love that. And the bloke in the hardware shop comes up to Ron Swanson and he's just like, I know more than you. Don't help me.  So, after school, Daniel went to Agricultural College which, he actually represented the college on a TV quiz show, but I can't find which one, which was really annoying.

Rachel: It's gotta be something like University Challenge or something, surely.

Hannah: Well, like, even on the wiki, it changed, like, I was looking at his Wikipedia page and it changed, like,  it wasn't clear to me, but maybe I was just being silly.

Rachel: What other game shows are there?

Hannah: Blankety Blank. 

Rachel: I didn't just mean in general. One man and his dog.  Did you never see that?

Hannah: Yes.  I just love that that's where your brain goes. 

Rachel: Well, I'm just trying to think like agricultural colleges. What shows would an agricultural college be on? That makes it sound like I'm saying they're thick. I'm not saying they're thick.

Hannah: She's a woman of the people.

Rachel: You would think Agricultural College Sheepdog Trials. Like, it just works, right? 

Hannah: You can dig your own hole, I'm not jumping in. That's your shovel, love. Good luck with that.

Rachel: And I will not put it down. Sorry, carry on. Moving swiftly on.

Hannah: Moving on, yep. Daniel went on to travel and get invaluable experience in farming. He travelled to Denmark where he learnt Danish. then travelled to Scandinavia where he got a sales rep job. So he does these kind of handbrake turns in his career. I'm like, oh, okay. But once Daniel came back to the UK, he took a job as a tour guide for tourists journeying around Britain.

In his late twenties, he met his wife and they settled in South London. The pair had two children together, and Daniel spent his free time restoring classic cars.

Rachel: He's one of those people that's just like...

Hannah: A savant.  Yeah. Is that the word?

Rachel: I don't know, I'm, I'm gonna be honest here, I don't know what that word means, but I use it far too often for someone who doesn't actually know what it means.

Hannah: If I'm right, and now I'm scared that I'm not, a savant is  someone that could pick up anything and learn it. Like, yeah, so pick up a violin, learn the violin, make your own kyack. I think I know this? Go on. The Sims.

Rachel: Oh, nice.

Hannah: It's a personality trait you can choose for your Sims.

Rachel: I haven't played  The Sims in years. I've just done a Google.  You are correct. A very learned or talented person, especially one distinguished in a particular field. But then it also says  a person who has exceptional aptitude in one particular field, despite having significant impairment in other areas of intellectual or social functioning.

Hannah: So maybe I've got the context a bit off there. Well,

Rachel: No, because the first one is definitely what you said. Just someone good at something. Anyway, anyway, yeah, no, but I was gonna say one of those really irritating people who's really good at everything they touch, but I think savant was the correct word. So moving on again, and we,  and we move. 

Hannah: So in January 1977, Morgan had another. But this time a bit, well, seemingly a bit more thought out career change and decided to use his incredible memory to work as a private investigator.

Daniel's brother speaks of his phenomenal talent for memorizing intricate and complicated details and recalling them years later. Which is most likely foundational to why, after only three years in the field, Daniel had reached enough success to start his own private investigative firm.  That's very cool.

DJM Investigations.  DJM Investigations. So they worked on the usual cases that you might expect. Cheating partners, insurance fraud, surveillance work. 

Rachel: I always feel, whenever anyone mentions a private investigator. That there needs to be someone talking in a really, like I went that way, see? Everything's, everything's suddenly a noir movie.

Hannah: There's lots of smoke

Rachel: Yeah, fedoras, black and white.

Hannah: Always writing in pencil, which they have to lick the end of.

Rachel: Yeah, why?

Hannah: Well, I don't know if we've also got this confused with journalists. Do journalists lick the end of pencils?

Rachel: And that is the soundbite for the next ad. 

Hannah: Okay. Anyhow. After a few years working independently out of his home, Daniel met Jonathan Rees.  So Rees was born in Doncaster and had been in the Merchant Navy before becoming an investigator.

Together in 1984, they went into business. DJM Investigations was renamed Southern Investigations and opened its first office in Thornton Heath. Croydon. Croydon.

Rachel: I wouldn't, I wouldn't spend a lot of time there. 

Hannah: I've heard parts of it are really nice now.

Rachel: Well, what parts? Near the Ikea?

Hannah: I've no idea.  Parts where people who we're not keen on don't live. I said what I said.

Rachel: Oh, you're gonna get us in trouble.

Hannah: Me? Me?  I don't know.  I've never met people. 

Rachel: She doesn't want to be perceived.

Hannah: I'm a mirage. From all the information available, everything I'm about to tell you. Meeting Rhys like 100 percent changed the course of Daniel's life. There are lots of different theories behind Morgan's death, none of which have been conclusively proven or disproven. So, here is what we do know.

On the 10th of March, 1987, Morgan met his business partner, Jonathan, in the Golden Lion pub in Sydenham. The time of arrival for each man has been refuted, but it is widely accepted, now, that both had left the pub by 9pm.

Rachel: Right.

Hannah: At 9. 30, Jonathan attends the Beulah Spa Pub in Crystal Palace, meeting Paul Goodridge, a professional bodyguard.  The Beulah Spa Pub is an 11 minute drive from the Golden Lion.  At 9. 40, Daniel Morgan's body is found. He has an axe in his head. Bloody hell. He was still in the car park of the Golden Lion.

The attack on Morgan was brutal.  Notes who'd been seen writing in the pub that night were nowhere to be found. And a Rolex had been stolen from his possession, but his wallet and his cash were untouched.

Detective Sergeant Sid Fillory, based at Catford Police Station, was assigned to the case. Fillory, however, did not disclose that he had been working unofficially for Southern Investigations.

Rachel: Oh, moon-lighting.

Hannah: Mm hmm.

Rachel: Oh. A bit of a conflict.

Hannah: The discovery of this after several days means the detective is removed from the case. And I've got lots of very unpleasant updates about this dude as we go through.

Rachel: Well, I'm glad to hear he was removed.

Hannah: Mm. After several days.  Well, yeah, that's not, I didn't, but It did. It impacted the, the investigation. Really? Okay.  So in April of 1987, six people were arrested on the suspicion of murder, but were all released without charge.

Those six were  Detective Sergeant Sid Fillery.

Rachel: Oh, for God's sake.

Hannah: Daniel's business partner, Jonathan Rees.  And Glenn and Gary Veehan who were Jonathan Reese's brothers in law. And two other Met Police officers.

Rachel: What?

Hannah: Mm hmm.

Rachel: Oh, good. 

Hannah: So, in May of 87, a former employer of Morgan's spoke to the police, and he informs them that he believes  He thought Daniel was trying to sell a story basically about police corruption, relating to the importation of cocaine into the UK from Miami.

So whilst this is one of the first accounts of Morgan having a relationship with the media, the family were told several similar stories which led to a firm belief within the Daniels family that his investigations into corruption within the Met and his willingness to report on it may be why he was murdered.

Since the initial investigation into Daniel's murder, it has come to light that Daniel had several press contacts, including Alastair Campbell and reporters from the private eye. Oh,  interesting.  So, by the summer of 87, one of Daniel's police contacts, Alan Holmes, who was a crucial witness in a corruption investigation into a senior officer, was found shot dead in what was classified as a suicide, four months after Morgan's killing.

One year later, in April 1988, an inquest was held. All staff from Southern Investigations were called to give evidence at Southwark Coroner's Court.

During this inquest, the firm's accountant, Kevin Lennon, spoke of a significant deterioration in the relationship between Daniel and Jonathan,  which was corroborated further by the officers  through the investigation of the officers who replaced Fillory. Mm hmm. Were doing. They discovered that actually Daniel and Jonathan had fallen out after Jonathan had failed to disclose that he'd recently been employed, along with the two brothers in law to collect and protect an amount of cash from a used car dealership and take it to a bank.

The money had been stolen in suspicious circumstances and Daniel accused Rhys of stealing it. But the car dealership decided to sue Southern Investigations. 

Rachel: Hang on. Yeah.  So the car dealership  accepted, stolen?

Hannah: No. So the car dealership had an amount of cash, right?

Rachel: Oh, right. Okay. So then the brother-in-Law, Jonathan and Reese was meant to collect it and protect it.

Hannah: Right. And take it to a bank, nicked it, then the money goes missing. Right.  And the car dealership are pursuing Southern investigations and that's the first time Daniel finds out that this job even existed.

Rachel: Right. Okay.

Hannah: At the inquest, Lennon, the accountant, stated that Jonathan told him he found the perfect solution for the problems between himself and Morgan, and I quote,  My mates at Catford Nick are going to arrange it.

Those police officers are friends of mine and will either murder Danny themselves or will arrange it. 

Rachel: Oh, Nice.

Hannah: Brilliant, hey? Despite this evidence and the inquest returning a verdict of unlawful killing, Jonathan denied all accusations and refuted Lennon's statements. Shortly after the verdict was given, Sid Fillory left the Met, retired on medical grounds.

And he joins Jonathan as a business partner at Southern Investigations.

Rachel: For God's sake.

Hannah: So now we're in February of 89.  And there were three more arrests.  The bodyguard that Jonathan Rees had gone to have a drink with  after,  Goodridge, while he and his then girlfriend, Jean Wisden, were arrested along with Jonathan again.

In May 1989,  the charges were dropped due to lack of evidence.  The senior police involved blamed Fillory, stating that his actions during the initial investigation made it very difficult to bring charges against Jonathan that would stick. His mates at Catford Nick would arrange it.  In July of 1989, the Police Complaints Authority announced an inquiry into the handling of the case and the murder inquiry itself.

Hampshire Police are to take on the investigation because you have to have a out of area force. So the findings of this inquiry were not released until March 1990. Okay. Hampshire concluded that there was no evidence of involvement by any police officer in the murder and no evidence to support Lennon's allegations.

Hampshire police also found no evidence to suggest any member of the murder investigation team took deliberate action to prevent the murder being properly detected. There are no grounds for disciplinary action against any officer found moonlighting for investigations other than strict admonishment.

Rachel: Oh great, just a slap on the wrist then?

Hannah: Strictly though.

Rachel: Strict, a strict slap on the wrist. Excellent. Bloody hell.

Hannah: I know. So, where are we? It's 1990 and we've had two investigations and several arrests, but no charges.  We know that the initial police handling of the case significantly impacted the future proceedings, despite what Hampshire think.

And, despite there being gossip around, Right. It feels icky to talk about this, right, but there are rumours that Daniel was involved in drug deals and stuff as well, but it was never proven. There's no real, like, hard evidence, or Yeah.  It almost feels like someone was mudslinging.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Hannah: To take the heat off.

Rachel: Hmm. I wonder who that could be.

Hannah: But like, throughout all of this, there was only ever a focus on Jonathan Rees. And his associates. And,  right, buckle in, because what I've written here as a note to self, is, things get really fucking murky. 

Rachel: Right. Where is my pencil? I have to lick the end of it.

Hannah: Sorry. Oh dear. I was literally gonna be like, Oh, that could be a catchphrase like Trevor's lick your ends, but I don't  think we should have that as a tag.

Rachel: I  think that's, that's an absolutely epic soundbite, you go, Trevor's lick your ends. Trevor's lick your ends. Can we put that on a t shirt? Oh dear. Right, things get really murky. I've got my pencil, the end's licked.

Hannah: I hope it's damp.  In 1990, Southern Investigations started to work with tabloid newspapers, such as the News of the World. As we've heard, not the first time that an investigative agency had relationships with the tabloid press, but this time it becomes, like, mad.  I'm going to skip forward. Just ever so slightly. Okay. Around 21 years. Oh, okay. But in 2011, it was revealed that Jonathan Rees had earned around 150k a year from the News of the World, supplying illegally obtained information about people in the public eye.

Rachel: Well, I'm sorry, that just doesn't sound like the News of the World.

Hannah: Ask me about the illegal methods. Go on.

Rachel: What illegal methods?

Hannah: Phone hacking

Rachel: Yay! Anyone who got that, ten points for you. 

Hannah: The Guardian newspaper described Jonathan Rees activities as a devastating pattern of illegal behaviour,  far exceeding those of the other investigators commissioned by News Corporation, who used illicit means to target prominent figures.

They included unauthorised access to computer data and bank accounts, corruption of police officers, and An alleged commission commissioning of burglaries for information about targets at the highest level of state and government, including the Royal Family and the Cabinet, Police Chief Commissioners, Governors of the Bank of England, and the Intelligence Services.

Rachel: Bloody hell. 

Hannah: Jonathan. He was really fucking busy. So, In 1998, the police ordered a new secret inquiry due to the allegations of corruption. So, we're literally We're in line of duty territory here guys.

Rachel: Oh my. This really is a film noir.  It's yeah, there needs to be like some saxophone music or like 

Hannah: There's only one thing I'm interested in Rachel...And that's bent coppers 

Rachel: To be fair, I can't spell definitely either! Spoilers. Sorry, that should have been a spoiler. Although if you haven't seen it, where have you been? 

Hannah: Yeah, so they ordered a secret inquiry. The anti corruption officers planted a bug in the Southern Investigations Office.  The bug reveals a plot to use corrupt police officers to plant cocaine on a woman so that her estranged husband can obtain custody of their child.

Rachel: Oh, wow. 

Hannah: Police swoop, Rhys is arrested, and this time, convicted of perverting the course of justice.

Rachel: How many months in prison?

Hannah: In 2000, he was sentenced to seven years. Oh, okay. A corrupt police officer was also jailed. So, quite, quite a good outcome. There we go.  So despite the arrests in relation to police corruption and illegal activity being exposed, there were no further developments in the murder investigation.

The family, by this point, were incensed.

Rachel:  Yeah. As you would be.

Hannah: Of course. And dedicated a lot of time to maintain the pressure on the police to finally get justice for Daniel.  So between 2002 and 2003, there was a fourth  police investigation into the case.

Rachel:  Wow. 

Hannah: The team, led by Detective Chief  Superintendent David Cook, who later became the case SIO person, decided to offer a 50k reward for information leading to Daniel's killer.

There were supporting appeals broadcast on BBC's Crimewatch. Jackie Haynes, the police officer and She was a police officer, but she was the crime watch presenter at the time.  Actually, she happens to be Cook's wife. Oh! But she was then put under investigation by News of the World.

Rachel: Oh, 

Hannah: Jackie actually went on to testify at the Leveson Inquiry. I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole, don't worry.

Rachel: Yeah, I was gonna say, we'll be here for a while if that happens. 

Hannah: There was, in some way, collusion between people at News of the World and people suspected of committing the murder of Daniel Morgan.

So, Morgan's name became a byword to symbolise how corrupt parts of the Met Police had become in the late 1980s. After a campaign led by his family, Scotland Yard tried to bring the killers to justice. Okay. So in April  2008, police arrested and charged Jonathan Rees, Gary and Glenn Veen, and Jimmy Cook with the murder, whilst Fillory was charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.

Right. The five were charged after a criminal investigation, which at the start was kept secret by Scotland Yard. Mm. The suspects were led to sorry, the suspects were subjected to. Cover audio recording devices, but the backbone in the case was a series of super grasses,

Rachel: like the  band!!

Hannah:  This case collapses. 

Rachel: Right, we were getting too close to it being sorted, no, now we've got to throw a spanner in the works.

Hannah: So this is 2009 2011.  The case, like, just completely falls apart. And it really opened up conversations around supergrasses and how they're used. One of the main players for the prosecution was a career criminal who had been serving a 27 year sentence for 51 crimes.

Rachel: Fuckin hell.

Hannah: Who had his time reduced to three years. What? Because of the evidence he was gonna give.

Rachel: Oh my god.

Hannah: Regardless, and he would have got that regardless of the outcome of the Morgan trial. So, I mean, if you're facing 27 years, someone say, okay, we can do three, you're gonna fucking tell them whatever, whatever they want to hear. Also no one thought to mention that the man had been diagnosed as a pathological liar.

Rachel: Oh, for god's sake. Brilliant. Oh, good.

Hannah: It was revealed that Cook, the police officer had coached two key super grass witnesses, telling them what to say, which was a serious misconduct and perversion of justice.

This was a critical factor in undermining the integrity of the investigation and subsequent legal proceedings. So, you remember the name Jimmy Cook, who was arrested a little while ago?  So he was,  his involvement's really unclear. Right. So he had a pseudonym. Which was Lee Marvin. And it, it seemed to be now that he was actually playing both sides.

Rachel: Ooh.

Hannah: So he did provide information to the police. Right. But because of kind of his connections and what he was doing, what he was doing the rest of the time. It wasn't really taken seriously.  I don't think it would have been substantial enough to actually help anything. But he did claim to have knowledge of Jonathan Reese's guilt.

He claimed to have seen money handed over to pay for the killing. He claimed to hear, have heard admissions from defendants and also allegedly, Jimmy admitted to being the getaway driver who was at the scene of Daniel's murder and watched the whole thing.

Rachel: Oh, for God's sake.

Hannah:  Which, to be honest, I don't know, It's probably true. Like with, if you think about everything we know, it was, it was fucking Jonathan Rees. And his associates. Whether Rees would have got his own hands dirty. I don't know which is where the brothers in law come in. Jimmy Cook would have been around. Like  it just, it, it fits.

Rachel: Yeah. It does.

Hannah:  His connections, his criminal history, all of that. It just. Again, like I said, really fucking murky.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Agreed.

Hannah: So, since Daniel Morgan was brutally murdered in 1987, the case has cost the British taxpayer over 50 million pounds in police costs and other expenditures.

Rachel: Sorry, 50 million?

Hannah:  Mm hmm.  There have been four high level police inquiries, two massive undercover police anti corruption investigations,  one intelligence gathering operation, and over 40 arrests. 

Rachel: Fucking hell.

Hannah: No, no one has ever been convicted. 

Rachel: That is mad. 50 million. That is such a ridiculous number.

Hannah: I mean, if you're the Morgan family, there's no number big enough to get justice for your son.

Rachel: No, 100 percent agree with that, but it just seems very high.

Hannah: Yeah. And I, all of that, when  you've got all of that resource  and you can't make something.  You can't make the case solid. It's madness.

Rachel: I do remember hearing, it's quite a well known case, that one round here, isn't it, really?

But I do remember when I first found out about it, and it's, that whole idea that he was found with an axe in his head.  It's just brutal.  The bit that gets me and I suppose again kind of like links in with that whole film noir stuff But is the fact that like what was he writing? What was on the papers? and obviously we'll never know but  Yeah, it always makes it seem like There's a bit more  There's more to it than meets the eye  From kind of that but the pub itself is really nice now

Hannah: I haven't been there, I don't think. I know where it is and I've definitely been past it, but I don't think I've ever been in.

Rachel:  Really? It is, it's nice in there, they've done it all up. It's very, well, obviously since the 80s. They have cleaned the car park.

Hannah: No, we probably did it two minutes after the murder.

Rachel: Well, yeah, exactly. Quickly, let's, nothing to see here, nothing to see.

Hannah: What was that, Sid? You want us to clean this? Okay.   

Rachel:  Yeah, no it's a very nice pub now. Two friends had their baby shower in there. Oh, nice. That was the last time I went.  Which was ages ago now. Which is disgusting.

Hannah:The kids are at uni or something.

Rachel:  Yeah, no. But, but not much,  probably about five, it was about five years ago. Anyway,  it's it's a very interesting case.

Hannah: I just found like,  it's a, it's like that thing, like, the police, obviously there's corruption, right? And we're going to get into that whole thing of like, one bad apple, or twelve bad apples, or whatever.  But even when they had.  Evidence. Yeah. They f ed it up in another way by the use of a supergrass who was diagnosed as a pathological liar. That's just mad. Like that should be like your number one criteria.

Yeah. When selecting someone to be a grass for you. To  be your man on the inside. Probably not. Diagnosed as a pathological liar, does he? Do you know what? They're just small fibs. They're just, just small little white lies. Oh my god, what a little lie. Ugly as hell.

Rachel: It is, it is mad. And to think that it's kind of been going on for so long, and it's,  you know, I know we have to say allegedly, but you're right, like, the writing's on the bloody wall, surely.

Hannah: It does feel very, you'd like to think that if it were to happen again,  It would be cut and dry,  you know, he was,  he was  about to expose police corruption. He had gone into business with a man who then was committing corruption with the police. You know, probably looking to upset a huge payday  or multiple huge paydays over a period of time. You know. 

Rachel: It is, it is mad. There's motive.  There is definitely motive means and what's the other one?  Motive.

Hannah: Axe... Motive, means, axe.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, that.  Thank you. That was a, that was a good one. Again, I think it's one of those ones where it's like, I'd heard a lot about it and obviously knew the pub where it happened. But I think a lot of, again, it's one of those, isn't it? Where I think because the nature of how he was kind of killed is so brutal and so kind of gratuitous that in a weird way it almost covers up all the rest of it. You get so sucked into the idea that it was an axe murder,  you then kind of don't spend a lot of time digging to understand what was behind it all.

Hannah: Then yeah, multiple investigations, kind of multiple arrests, no charges, like no convictions. It's just, you know, It's baffling. Yeah. It all really fell apart. I, I want to end on just something I said in the beginning, but for Daniel, I also think it's really fucking cool that he went from a young child with a club foot who needed nine operations to be in a scrum half.

Rachel: Yeah. Oh, I know. Like,  didn't let it stop him.

Hannah: Didn't dictate anything. Built a kayak, burnt Danish.

Rachel: And it's, but you just think what a bloody waste.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.  A waste of potential.

Rachel: Absolutely. Waste of potential. 

Hannah: And you know those, there's a wife that lost a husband. There's a, there's kids that lost a dad, there's  a dad that lost a son. Like it  just, and the fact that it's horrible

Rachel: I know that we, as a society, are all kind of I don't think anybody really thinks that the police are,  you know, as wonderful as we may have one time been told. I do think that there are,  you know, police, I think that they're trying to police themselves a bit better. I don't think they're succeeding, but I think they're trying. But I. I struggle with the idea that it's like, police corruption is terrifying, because these are the people that you're told will keep you safe.

Hannah: Yeah, you don't want the,  you know, the monsters under the bed turn out to be the people that told you they were looking after the monsters.

Rachel: Exactly.

Hannah: It's, it's just, yeah, it's horrible. And I can't imagine the feeling of, sort of disappointment, abandonment that that family must feel knowing that actually  there's obviously there's things being said behind closed doors, there's stuff being passed from place to place. And I just think the fact that you've Like, regardless of what you may or may not know,  or have heard, or it's been alluded to, this family were  again and again put through,  they've made an arrest, or there's been this, or there's been that, there's an investigation started, this is launching, this is launching,  for nothing.

Yeah. For no justice. That is horrible. It's, yeah, so,  so frustrating for a man.  Who built his own kayak. Which I just think is admirable.

Rachel: I think it's very admirable. 

Hannah: Yeah, we don't know how to sharpen pencils. We're trying to lick them. Like, he's a very clever man. 

Rachel: Oh, well, as usual. Thank you so much. That was a very good story, told brilliantly. Thank you very much.

Hannah: You're very welcome.

Rachel: So yeah, I suppose that just leaves us with the usual stuff. All of the sources will be in the show notes.

Hannah: Indeed. If you like us and you're listening still, which I hope you are, if not what's wrong with you? You've licked too many pencils.

Rachel: Far too many pencils. Don't forget, I will have an existential crisis when I look at those stats that tell me that however many people should be listening, and if I don't reach it, I will cry.

Hannah: And if you don't care about that, But you do somehow care about me. Please know that I have to hear about this every three and a half minutes. She does. So please, please for me. But yeah, leave us a review, leave us a rating. If you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

Rachel: Exactly that. But yeah, we'd love to hear what you think.

Hannah: And also if you have any ideas for cases, I'm kind of getting now is like, I'll mention it to someone, they'll be like, Oh, wasn't there that thing? Yeah. Didn't that happen in Deptford? Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know.  You tell me.

Rachel: Obviously don't go out and commit any crimes in South London. I think we have enough of them already. That's my public service announcement for today.

Hannah: Don't commit crime peeps. Don't, don't. It's not cool.

Rachel: And the Police won't care anyway. And on that note should we say good night?

Hannah: Yeah, why not?

Rachel: Why not?  Bye!

Hannah: Bye peeps!