Beyond My Years

Teaching for life, starring Eric Jones

• Amplify Education • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Today on Beyond My Years, host Ana Torres becomes a student of Eric Jones, an educator who came out of retirement at 80 years of age to help with a national teacher shortage—thus becoming the oldest paid teacher in Britain. Eric talks with Ana about building a collaborative classroom and what it means to teach children, not content. He also shares how the trajectory of his life changed when one man recognized and encouraged his desire to be a teacher. He’ll also discuss how going to school in the ‘50s shaped his teaching style; retiring before the age of the smartphone only to return to teaching when every kid has one; how his work in anti-bullying contributed to a national law; and why his love for teaching has lasted a lifetime. 

Taking all those lessons back to the classroom, Eric Cross and Ana then discuss how they would apply the tenets of respect and collaboration in their own classrooms.

Show notes:

Quotes 

“You've got to love teaching, you've got to love the kids, and you've really got to want to do it. Almost, dare I say, in your blood.” —Eric Jones

“I collaborate with my students about what the rules are, and that's their creation as well as mine.” —Eric Jones

“It's nothing to do with, ‘I'm a teacher, you're a student.’ It's, ‘We are human beings together.’” —Eric Jones

“I like teaching kids things they didn't know before and now they're excited about. I love the idea that they will then move on into realms of industry and economics success that I would never dream of.” —Eric Jones

Eric Jones: (00:00)
I'm still teaching, even now at 82 years of age. What is this magic ingredient? I don't know. I love teaching.

Ana Torres: (00:09)
This is Ana Torres, and welcome to Beyond My Years from Amplify. On each episode, I speak with longtime educators who share chronicles from the classroom and some lessons they like to pass on to newer teachers in the field. Back when we first dreamed up this podcast, I imagined sitting down with legendary educators who'd been in the game for 25, maybe 30-plus years. And then I learned about Eric Jones. Eric Jones is a truly seasoned educator. He first started teaching in 1969. And look, I know that years taught doesn't necessarily equal wisdom, but Eric Jones has plenty of both. He's someone so passionate about teaching that he literally came out of retirement to help address the local teaching shortage in his community. Eric Jones has also been a part of some important movements in education. He was an early outspoken critic of bullying. So on this episode, we'll hear about Eric's anti-bullying work and how he tries to create healthy classrooms. But more than anything, we're going to hear from someone who is still going into the classroom—in his eighties—about fostering a lifelong love of teaching. And at the end of this episode, I'm going to be joined by my Classroom Insider, Eric Cross, who will share his thoughts on applying some of this wisdom to the modern day classroom. So now it's time to listen in to my conversation with Eric Jones.

Ana Torres: (01:49)
Well, I am so excited for today's guest. He's joining us all the way from the United Kingdom, where he's been referred to as "Britain's oldest teacher." Let's rephrase that: "Britain's most seasoned teacher." We're definitely going to get tips on longevity on this call. But stamina isn't the only thing that makes today's guest special. He is also an early advocate against bullying, and I'm so glad that he's here with us today to talk about that particular topic that is actually near and dear to my heart as well. And so, in fact, he was a speaker at the first ever UK National Conference on Bullying. I'm so excited to talk to him about all of that and just his journey in education, and he's got some really great stories for us. This is Eric Jones. Eric Jones, welcome. Welcome.

Eric Jones: (02:46)
Thank you Ana, very much indeed. It's lovely to be here and I'm astonished that you even found me. But, here I am.

Ana Torres: (02:53)
But we did and we're so happy that we did find you. And so let's kick it off. Can I ask you how many years you've been in the classroom?

Eric Jones: (03:03)
I first got paid for being a teacher from the first of September, 1969. What is that, 55 years ago? Present day, a pensioned teacher. But I'm still getting paid for teaching even now at 82 years of age because of reasons, which I'll tell you in a minute.

Ana Torres: (03:23)
I like how you're like "paid teacher," right? You're talking about when you were paid. But you have actually been a teacher even before like you were getting paid. You were educating prior to that.

Eric Jones: (03:33)
Yes.

Ana Torres: (03:33)
And can you talk to us a little bit about how many times you've actually technically been retired during this amazing journey that you've had as a seasoned educator, Eric?

Eric Jones: (03:43)
Well, in a minute I'd love to tell you about how one particular guy catapulted me into education officially. But as well as being a paid teacher, I've been a youth leader and I've been teaching kids all sorts of things since I was 17 as a youth leader, including religious studies, and drama, and music, and first aid. But in 1983, I think, I took early retirement from being a deputy head of a big inner city London comprehensive school, which nearly burned me out. And I took early retirement in 1993, I beg your pardon, after I'd just done about 30-something years and I was pretty well burned out. And I took early retirement partly because it was available and I was 51. And partly because the local educational authority I worked for was running out of money and they needed to get rid of more teachers. So I volunteered to go. And saved one or two other people their jobs. So I retired. I still had a mortgage to pay and I still had life insurance to pay. So I went back into the classroom then as an ordinary teacher at a different school near where I lived. And spent the next eight years there teaching religious studies and drama and loving it. And then in 2001, I became 60 and I retired for the second time, and took my pension and ran away. And that was the end of my career as I thought. I still carried on teaching youngsters voluntarily in drama particularly, and in church a bit, but doing drama with local kids, and bits of Shakespeare and musicals and pantomime plays, Agatha Christie plays. So I did an awful lot between the years 2001 when I retired for the second time and 2022, when the government asked if any retired teachers would be willing to come back into the classroom and help out a bit after the pandemic, when there was still some sick teachers, but nobody wanted to close down the schools again. So rather than close schools down again, I said, "Yeah, I'll go back into the classroom." And the government put me onto an agency and the agency phoned me up and said, "Can you do tomorrow or next day after or next week? Or can you do two days next week?" And I've been doing that for the last two years, which makes me the oldest paid teacher in Britain (chuckles), whether you like it or not.

Ana Torres: (06:22)
The oldest paid teacher. Wow. And how does that resonate with you? That that is a title that you have?

Eric Jones: (06:29)
I'm very proud of it in, in a way, but also I'm not that proud. I'll take anyone's money if they offer it to me.  But I do love, I just love teaching. I really do. And after 20 years, not being in the classroom, going back into the classroom a year and a half or two years ago was a bit daunting 'cause I wasn't quite sure what to expect. But I dunno, it's like...

Ana Torres: (06:51)
Eric, I was actually going to ask you about that if I could. What was it like returning to the classroom, you know, in your late seventies and early eighties?

Eric Jones: (07:00)
It was, it was odd in the sense that I was looking forward to it and yet quite timid about it because you don't know what you're going to meet. And, things have changed in 20 years

Ana Torres: (07:11)
And pandemic. Right? Right, Eric? I mean, all of these things are happening.

Eric Jones: (07:15)
Absolutely.

Ana Torres: (07:16)
What an interesting storm. All of those things happening all at once.

Eric Jones: (07:20)
I...just wanted to go back briefly to about 1964 when I was at a conference, which I was sent to by my church. It was a Christian leadership conference. And to cut the story quite short, I met a guy there who sat with me while I played the piano and everyone was singing. And at the end of the evening, this was a Saturday evening social thing, not part of the conference. And he said to me, "You want to be a teacher, don't you?" And I said, "How did you know that?" I was working in insurance, liking it, but not loving it. But I knew I wanted to be a teacher. I'd even helped out in a classroom when I was about 10 and a half or coming up 11 in a junior school when the teachers had asked me to look after a class while they were doing something else much more important. And I did. And I loved it. My high school secondary school career was not exactly full of glory. And I didn't leave with maybe the expectations of either myself or my school. And I then went into motor insurance. But eight years on, I knew I still wanted to be a teacher. So we were just sitting around the piano and he said, "You want to be a teacher?"...I said, "How did you know?" He said, "It's obvious. I can tell. The way you've contributed to the weekend, the way you speak, the way you address people, the way you talk." So I said, "Well, yeah, I'd love to, but I didn't get enough qualifications when I left school, so I don't think I'd ever really be qualified." And he said the magic words: "What are you waiting for?" And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Look, do you want to go or don't you?" I said, "Yeah, but I don't think any college would accept me." And he said, "That's not for you to decide, that's for them to decide. What you've got to decide is do you want to go?" And...I did want to go. And I went to an interview. The interview was slightly embarrassing. And they said, "Well, if you can get three or four more GCSE qualifications in the next 12 months, you're in." And that's when I went in September '66 and started training. So that guy saying to me, "What are you waiting for?" was magic, absolutely.

Ana Torres: (09:30)
Those words: "What are you waiting for?" That was a very pivotal moment for you.

Eric Jones: (09:36)
Absolutely. Switched on. It switched on my new life. And if you're asking me what is different now from when I retired 20 years ago, let alone when I started 50 years ago, the big difference is this.

Ana Torres: (09:51)
Tell us, tell us what that "this" is.

Eric Jones: (09:52)
It's a mobile phone.

Ana Torres: (09:54)
The mobile phone.

Eric Jones: (09:56)
Going back after 20 years, I walked into a classroom. Every classroom has got a computer. Every classroom computer is linked to the main computer in the school. And every student in the room has got a laptop. Now that's the difference, 'cause to me that is witchcraft.

Ana Torres: (10:15)
You find the advanced technology to be witchcraft, Eric? And, how so?

Eric Jones: (10:21)
You know what I mean. You know what I mean. I mean to, to me...

Ana Torres: (10:25)
I actually do know what you mean.

Eric Jones: (10:25)
Yeah. I mean it's a bit daunting to an 82-year-old. I now take the register in a classroom, not by ticking off names on a page, but by plugin, yeah? And then I have to log in. I have to have a password for the day. I have to have the login code for the day. And then I log into the computer in the classroom. And then everything I'm doing on the computer appears on the screen behind me that the kids can see that I'm supposed to turn off when it's the register. But I forget.  So their names all appear and then I do it. I've just done it. I've used the modern technology and I've used it anyway over the years as got used to it. As I'm using it with you now.

Ana Torres: (11:08)
Absolutely. As teachers we're multitasking and we're learning all the time. Would you say, Eric?

Eric Jones: (11:13)
Absolutely. And the thing I don't want to lose is the ability to teach.

Ana Torres: (11:18)
Exactly.

Eric Jones: (11:19)
I get a bit of a hint in the classroom that teachers can electronically produce anything on the screen. That might be Leonardo DiCaprio in Romeo and Juliet and the kids sit and watch it for two hours. Or it might be a worksheet or a multi-choice test on-screen. I don't want to lose the ability of turning everything off, sitting at the front of the room and telling the story of a Christmas Carol, or of Romeo and Juliet, or Macbeth, and keep a group of kids absolutely in the palm of my hand. 'Cause that's teaching. I don't want to lose that. And I don't want any of us to lose it.

Ana Torres: (11:59)
You've hit it on the head. That's the essence of teaching. You're absolutely right, Eric. Now as we segue to one of the reasons we are actually here with you sharing your amazing story is, do you think it's valuable to hear from seasoned educators like yourself?

Eric Jones: (12:17)
Well, whether there's value or not in listening to me is up for other people to decide. I'd like to think there might be. One of the things I did when I did my degree was to study in a classroom of, I think nine 10-year-olds and a teacher. I studied for two days and I video recorded for two days every single word the teacher spoke. Every single movement he made, every position he stood in in the classroom. And I analyzed all that because I was interested in the whole business of how one teaches. If you're asking me what value came out of it, it was that I have to be very careful as a teacher that everything I'm saying is not teaching. Because there's an element in every teacher's language. There's elements of, "Sit down and stop talking." That's the disciplinary bit. There's bits of, "That was wonderful. That's the best piece of work you've done all the semester." That's good teaching as well. And there's also, "Queen Victoria died in 1901." That's pure didactic teaching. Oh, and there's also the fourth one, which is, "Get your books out,"  Which is administrative. Yeah? So you've got admin, didactic, teaching, discipline, and comforting and celebrating. Those things that teachers do. So if I'm asking a new teacher to think about their career, I would say maybe think about every single word you say and make sure it contributes to what you're trying to achieve and not detracts from it.

Ana Torres: (13:50)
I like that. I like that. That it contributes. And we are multifaceted when we're in the classroom. We're more than just the content. There's actually someone that I work very closely with. His favorite saying is, "We're more than just the content that we teach."

Eric Jones: (14:06)
Absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt. Because at the front of a classroom, I am in loco parentis. I'm a parent; I'm a teacher; I'm a guardian; I'm a protector; I'm a comedian; I'm an actor. Everything. You know, that's what you have to be. But the other thing I would say to young teachers is this: Don't teach science. Don't teach maths. Don't teach French. Don't teach geography. Teach children.

Ana Torres: (14:32)
Teach children. Absolutely. What's the relationship with other teachers when you show up? Do they try to seek out your wisdom?

Eric Jones: (14:41)
Good Lord, no. If I turn up to a school now, just for one day, nobody knows who the hell I am...You know, would you please go to room 32 and take this geography class because that teacher's ill. And would you please go to room 48 and teach geography or physics or maths or something else because that teacher's in a meeting.

Ana Torres: (15:01)
They will know who you are after this.

Eric Jones: (15:03)
It's possible!

Ana Torres: (15:04)
A gentleman like yourself who has the passion for teaching and has been doing it as long as you have, there is so much wisdom to actually get from you.

Eric Jones: (15:14)
You've got to love teaching; you've got to love the kids; and you've really got to want to do it. And it's almost, dare I say, in your blood. The guy said to me, "What are you waiting for?" He said, "I can tell you want to be a teacher. I can tell." And I'm sorry, but when I walk into a classroom, even at my age now, I adore those kids. And other teachers have said to me, "Thank you for coming to our school. Because we love it when you come for a day," which is very nice.

Ana Torres: (15:41)
So you are already giving out your nuggets of wisdom. And it is important. I think all of us who have made the decision to become educators have to love not just the content, have to love educating children. So I knew that I was called to be an educator, but I knew that I was called to be an educator to children. My K[indergarten] to eight[h grade] babies. Now you were meant to be called to work with teenagers, right? Who can seem very, very scary to some of us teachers that are  K—five elementary school. If you don't mind telling us a bit about your own teen years and how you think that might have informed your approach as a teacher to the teenagers that you're teaching.

Eric Jones: (16:30)
Very simple. I was a teenager during the 1950s. Teachers were dictatorial and aggressive. That's one thing. I knew I didn't ever want to be like that. Secondly, I was a teenager during the years when—I said already my secondary school career wasn't filled with glory. But one of my excuses was that I had eczema, skin disease. Which teenagers do get. I had it here on my arms, the back of my legs, around my forehead. It was very uncomfortable. So I went in and out, in and out of hospital a couple of times. Luckily my teenage friends at church and in the youth organization were not unkind and horrible about it. They accepted the fact that I had this skin problem. And then as the doctor predicted, at the age of 18, it all cleared up. And here I am, 70 years later.

Ana Torres: (17:32)
With fabulous skin might I add. So if you're listening here he is wearing his beautiful tie and a nice orange shirt. Just in case you were wondering of the look he has today.

Eric Jones: (17:42)
You look good, too. So there you go.

Ana Torres: (17:45)
Hey, we could've even started off with that. Right? We could have started off this call...with mutual admiration and adulation.

Eric Jones: (17:52)
But that was my teenage years. They were not my fondest memories.

Ana Torres: (17:56)
We also know during that time, during those middle school years, right? Sixth, seventh, eighth grade. And something that you even touched upon was your skin and you dealt with eczema and there was a group of, you know, folks that did not make you feel different. And we know that that is the timeframe when we see a lot of bullying. And I know that that is something that is very near and dear to your heart. A focus of yours. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how bullying became such a very explicit focus of yours.

Eric Jones: (18:32)
I was the deputy headmaster of a big inner city London school. Bullying was not really on the national agenda in any sense of the word. Not really. But there was a charity called Kidscape, which dealt with children's issues. And a particular mother went to this charity, Kidscape...to a lovely lady called Michelle and said, "Could you include bullying in your brief because my son's been bullied?" And Michelle initially said, "No, not really because we do an awful lot about child protection and being safe in the streets and from abuse and so on." And the mother pleaded with Michelle and said, "Please, would you include this? Because my son was bullied at school. And he was bullied outside the school gate one day and ran away into the path of a truck, and, sadly, was killed." Michelle took this story up and she...somehow or other, she got one of the local television companies interested in the "bullying is something that's been going on for years and maybe it shouldn't." And therefore the local television company came to my school because we happened to be fairly near their studios and said, "Could we do a piece about bullying using your school as a backdrop?" And my headmistress said to me, "Eric, you look after them." Because she called me her "showbiz deputy." Because I did drama. And I said, "Okay, I'll look after the television company." And they filmed their interview and they went off. Then I went to the launch of their program. And at the launch parents were moaning, as parents do—quite rightly—"My child was bullied and nobody did anything about it. My daughter was bullied; the head mistress didn't really want to know. My son was bullied and everybody couldn't care less." So I stood up and I said, "Look, hold on a minute. Not only do we do stuff about bullying, but considering all the other things we're supposed to do, it's a wonder we've got time to deal with anything. Let alone bullying. But we have to deal with safety, and geography, and maths, and graduation, and prize giving, and visitors, and health and safety, and lunch. And, you name it, you know. We do deal with bullying. This is roughly what we do." Michelle then came up to me afterwards and said, "Right, I'm going to organize the first ever national conference on bullying. Would you be the keynote speaker?" And that's where it began.

Ana Torres: (20:57)
That's how it all started.

Eric Jones: (20:59)
That's how it started. So I became a little bit of a national expert. But I'd like to say one big thing that came out of it. At the end of my, shall I say 10 or 12 years of touring around and nattering on about bullying and trying to sort of quantify it in some way so that we could teach specifics...As a result of that, there is now a law in Britain that says every school must have an anti-bullying policy. Prior to my first ever speech on bullying, I would say that if you'd said to any head teacher in Britain, "What about bullying in your school?" Nearly everyone would've said, "Oh, no, no, no, no. There's no bullying in this school. There's no bullying in our school." They'll deny it. Fifteen years on, it's the law that you not only must admit that it happens, because we all know it does, but that you must have a policy on how you deal with it. If I've contributed in one small iota to that government policy change or change in the law, I'm a satisfied man.

Ana Torres: (22:04)
It's more than a small iota, Eric, if you're saying that an anti-bullying law was put into place after all of the work that you have done.

Eric Jones: (22:13)
And others.

Ana Torres: (22:14)
That is a big—and others—but again, that is a big, big feat because I can only imagine that back then it was different to talk about bullying than now.

Eric Jones: (22:26)
Absolutely.

Ana Torres: (22:26)
I can only imagine. It wasn't quite as receptive as the environment as it is today. And can I also point out one thing? As you projected that cell phone on the screen, that's another element now that we're dealing with as it relates to bullying. We're now talking about bullying in a very different way with the advanced technology we have. And with the emergence of that cell phone. You can literally be taunted daily and ongoingly taunted.

Eric Jones: (22:57)
My presentation of bullying techniques in the sense of prevention and responding to bullying and how we deal with it and how we helped kids to get over it and through it and stop doing it...that sort of program of education has changed over the years. And now I would include it in a presentation amongst other things that simply says, "If you get some bullying online or on the phone, don't answer it. Don't reply to it. And don't delete it. Because that's evidence."

Ana Torres: (23:28)
Right. Because you have evidence.

Eric Jones: (23:30)
That's just a tiny thing. That's that how bullying has changed in the 20 or 30 years since I started dealing with it. It is simply a matter of that 30 years ago, most head teachers would've denied that it's ever happening. Now, they have to admit that it happens, and deal with it. And have a policy for doing so. So that's really good. It's got to be good.

Ana Torres: (23:51)
What would you say to a teacher if they are confronted with a situation of bullying? What would you say that their responsibility should be?

Eric Jones: (24:01)
Wow. Record it. Write it all down. That's the first thing. And let's agree between the accused bully and the bullied victim, let's agree what actually happened. Not let's scream and shout and with the parents of the victim shouting, "I want that child expelled," or the parents of the bully saying, "It wasn't my son's fault because he started it," which is the oldest phrase in the book. What I want do is to get both parties and witnesses—literally. And I know it sounds as though it takes forever, but it's the way law works, isn't it? You've got to write down what you actually saw, what you experienced, what you did, and what happened. And then we can sit in a room and we can discuss why it was wrong, how we could have dealt with it differently, what's going to happen now, and how we move on. That's the first thing. Write it all down.

Ana Torres: (24:55)
Right. I mean, I totally agree. An investigation. And, because we are dealing with children, Eric, we've got to see both sides. So we not only want to help the student that is bullied, but we also want to find out the root of the issue of the student that is bullying as well.

Eric Jones: (25:12)
Do you know what I used to say in my conference talk? I used to say, on this very issue of what to do with the bully, because there are people who keep shouting, you know, "They shouldn't be in this school!" And say, "Well, yes, they should have. 'Cause they're on the roll." I'm in the education business. I'm not in the vengeance business. Yeah? And if a boy doesn't know how to use a knife and fork, I'll teach him. If an infant doesn't know how to tie his shoelaces, I'll teach him. If a child doesn't know how to behave in society pleasantly and productively and creatively and positively, I will teach him if that's what he needs to learn.

Ana Torres: (25:48)
Well, and it goes back to what we've been just discussing all along. Love of teaching is love of children.

Eric Jones: (25:54)
Yeah, absolutely.

Ana Torres: (25:55)
Even the children that may act out in different ways, and behaviors may not be what we would like them to be, I believe as a teacher we are behooved to look at both sides. And we need to ensure that both students are getting what they need. So, you know, I love the advice you're giving to teachers, but I also would add to that, that as teachers, we also need to be providing guidance and counseling of some sort to the student that is bullying as well.

Eric Jones: (26:26)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think in this present day and age, the teachers that are the best are the ones who have earned a million dollars worth of respect. And the kids absolutely adore them for it. We don't all have to be friends. I've said to kids many times at school, "I'm not your friend; I've got enough friends, thank you very much. I don't need you as well, but I do need for you and me to work together."

Ana Torres: (26:51)
And being respectful. Being respectful will definitely get you to that place. You've had a very lengthy career and you've invented some very amazing strategies and techniques. So, can you tell us a bit about those? And I really actually want to really have our listeners know about your mini Magna Carta. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Eric Jones: (27:15)
First of all...I called it a mini Magna Carta in my first ever communication with you...I don't think I'd ever called it that in the last 50 years, or 30 years. But oddly enough, I called it that. 'Cause I was trying to think of a way of describing it. It's simply this: I'd get a tutor group in September when I was a full-time teacher and they're 14 years old and we're going to be together for two years. And I say to them, "Right, we are together for the next two years, twice a day every morning and every afternoon. Not to mention some lessons as well, possibly. So we're stuck with each other for two years. You with me, and me with you. So, nothing we can do about that. We just gotta make the best of it. So how should we treat each other?" And the quizzical look goes around the room and I'm saying, "Look, here's a piece of paper, blank sheet of paper. OK? Take that, and write on there all the rules that you think we should have in this room for each other. That's you and me, and you and each other, and me and you. And you can write down whatever you think is the stupidest rule you want. I don't mind what it is, but let's just put them down on paper and see what we think." And everybody does it. And they write things down like, "We shouldn't steal," and "We shouldn't hit people around the head with a ruler," or whatever. But they also write things down like, "We should respect each other."

Ana Torres: (28:38)
There goes the word "respect" again.

Eric Jones: (28:41)
Yep. Or, "We should not criticize someone else because they support a different football team or even if they have a different religion." And they write these things down on this blank sheet of paper, and I collect them all in, and I go, "Give me 24 hours and I'll come back to you with a distillation of everything you've said." So I go back to them a day or two later when we've got half an hour to spare: "These are the rules you thought of. And here they are, one after the other. Property. Respect. Punctuality. Behavior. Each other. Bullying, if you like. And so on. And I've distilled them down into about 10 or 12 things that I think are pretty much what you said. Would you look at them? And then would you tell me if I've missed anything out? Or if there's anything you want missed out, or you don't think should be there?" Then they all go around the room and we have a discussion about it. And eventually we all agree on the 10 or 12 rules for our room and our tutor group.

Ana Torres: (29:42)
Right.

Eric Jones: (29:43)
And then I print them out beautifully, and I send that piece of paper 'round to everybody one morning and say, "Sign it. And I'm going to sign it when you've all signed it." Blah, blah, blah. Off we go. And Eric Jones in amongst all the other signatures. And then I go away, and I laminate it, and then I pin it up on the wall of the classroom up near the door. And that's it. That's the rules that we agreed amongst ourselves for the year. And I've had tutor groups for two years at a time. In one particular school four times over eight years. And I don't think I've had a serious confrontational issue all those years that really needed dealing with.

Ana Torres: (30:30)
And it sounds to me that this...what we're now calling and identifying as a mini Magna Carta, was a very collaborative process.

Eric Jones: (30:41)
Absolutely.

Ana Torres: (30:41)
Very collaborative. All students were involved in creating what are going to be the expectations of how we treat each other in this classroom, which goes back to the word that we've been talking about, which is "respect," respecting each other.

Eric Jones: (30:57)
And in the 1950s that wouldn't have worked. In the 1950s, head teachers or teachers laid down the law. Now, I collaborate with my students about what the rules are. And...it's just got to be good. It's got to be worthwhile.

Ana Torres: (31:14)
That collaborative process is very impactful. I would've not been able to get off of this call without having you kind of talk with us about your mini Magna Carta. And so, with that, because you've had just a beautiful trajectory of how you became a teacher and having that individual tell you, "What are you waiting for?" Your experiences with your teenage students and your teenage years. And we know that you are 82 years young, you know, going to be about 83 in September. Correct?

Eric Jones: (31:49)
Fantastic.

Ana Torres: (31:51)
And I know that folks are going to be wondering, "Wait a minute, Eric. We hear a lot about educator burnout, Eric." Right? And you're someone who's been doing this for more than 50 years. 50 years! Now, I've only been, look, I've only been doing it for 30. What would be your message about doing this job for the long haul? Now, I know one of the themes could be: You retire in between. And you come back stronger, and stronger than ever. But what would really be your message about doing this for the long haul?

Eric Jones: (32:21)
Well, first of all, don't forget, I did say I retired from being a deputy head teacher of a big school when I was 51 because I felt I was burning out then. That was a really tough time. Because I still needed a career and I still needed an income. But I did retire, and I then went into what might have been my early retirement of 52 years of age, 'round about the time you started teaching.

Ana Torres: (32:45)
Well, there you go.

Eric Jones: (32:46)
Thirty years ago. And then I went back into the classroom, because it was being in the classroom that was my forte. Being a deputy head may not have been the very best thing for me, career wise. It's very good salary wise, but it wasn't very good for me as a teacher, and I wanted to be a teacher. So then I went back into the classroom and I was a teacher again in another school. And I did have another career for nine years, which I did love. And there was less pressure, And I loved it. So what is this magic ingredient? I don't know. I love teaching. I like teaching kids things they didn't know before and now they're excited about. I love the idea that they will then move on into realms of industry and economic success that I would never dream of. I know of at least two or three people I've taught in years gone by who are now millionaires. But I'm not, in case you hadn't noticed. And I adore them. They were just great, great kids at that time. So, that is what I bring back to it time and time again. That I love teaching and I love the kids that I worked with.

Ana Torres: (33:52)
For me, it's heartening that someone can feel like—someone like you and someone like me—and most teachers feel burnout.

Eric Jones: (34:00)
Absolutely.

Ana Torres: (34:00)
But even at that point where you felt like, "Ah, I've got to step away from it," you've come back and really you've come back re-energized, Eric.

Eric Jones: (34:09)
I'm very lucky.

Ana Torres: (34:11)
We're all very blessed to be able to continue to do this work. And again, none of us are millionaires, but we do it because we love it. We do it because we want to make a major impact. And so as we're kind of winding down here, what would you say the most surprising part of becoming a more experienced teacher is? Like, was there something you wish you would've known as a younger educator?

Eric Jones: (34:34)
I wish I could put that into easy words and very clever little sayings.

Ana Torres: (34:40)
Doesn't have to be clever.

Eric Jones: (34:41)
I've used up all my clever sayings in the interview we've had already. "Don't teach drama or geography. Teach children."  Those are the some of the things. And it still comes back, doesn't it, to loving what you do. Without a doubt. And I'm blessed enough with enough good health, please God, to carry on doing it for the time being, because I am relatively healthy. I won't tell you how fast I go up the stairs when I'm in a school, but never mind. We'll ignore that for the moment. It's been a joy to speak to you, and it's lovely to put some of this stuff into words.

Ana Torres: (35:15)
Oh, it's actually been amazing talking to you. And as we kind of close out here, any final words of advice for actually—and I'm gonna do this quote unquote, what I've heard you say—Any final words of advice for actually "teaching children as opposed to teaching geography or chemistry?" What would be some final words of advice?

Eric Jones: (35:39)
It's got to be, you've got to love it. You've really got to love every student that walks in the door. So as they walk in, say, "Good morning." Say, "Hello. Good afternoon." As they walk out, say, "I hope you have a fantastic evening," or "Have a nice lunchtime," or whatever. It's nothing to do with, "I'm a teacher; you're a student." It's, "We are human beings together; we are learning this stuff." And, "I appreciate how smart you look. I appreciate how your polite behavior has helped this class. And I hope my behavior has helped you to learn something, because that's what we do for and with each other." It's not going to get any better than that, Ana. It's the best I can do.

Ana Torres: (36:17)
No, that's beautiful. And so there you have it. Eric Jones, the most seasoned educator in Britain. And we love your nuggets of advice. And so basically what I've gotten from this Eric, is love what you do. If you are a teacher, love teaching, love children. Thank you, Eric.

Eric Jones: (36:37)
God bless. Thank you very much. Bye-Bye.

Ana Torres: (36:44)
What a fascinating conversation with Mr. Eric Jones. Please check out the show notes. We've got a link to Eric's website, which has some incredible photos from his past theater productions. And now you know what time it is. Let's get the Classroom Insider, Eric Cross on the line. Welcome, Eric.

Ana Torres: (37:09)
Hey, Ana. Thank you.

Ana Torres: (37:10)
Well, I had just an amazing conversation with Eric Jones. Look, another Eric, right?  I really want to hear what stood out to you, Eric, as you listened to that conversation.

Ana Torres: (37:23)
There was so much—aside from him having a great name—and I think the British accent ads like 10 points charisma, but maybe that's just my ears. But, there were so many things that Eric had shared. And one of the things that really stood out to me is, what I heard, and he said this about a different—a bunch of different subjects—but he said, "Don't teach science; teach children." For me as a science teacher—and he actually said this for math and English—and so much of what he was saying was focused on the humanity of the student. He was very intentional about humanizing the student, which sounds strange to say, but it's very easy to get lost in the amount of students that you're teaching and seeing them as students. And you're trying to deliver curriculum and forget about the humanity and the individual personas of each of your kids. And that's really, really important not to lose sight of.

Ana Torres: (38:08)
Well, and that's kind of a great thing that stood out for you. So, really thinking about coming in as yourself, and that humanity piece, and being more than just "content." I think you and I have had that conversation before as well.

Ana Torres: (38:22)
Yeah. He also said, "Don't become a teacher unless you love teaching." And I think that's something that is really important, especially from someone who's been teaching for so long. And not every profession you need to love, but teaching is one of those professions where you really need to love it if you're going to last a long time, especially teaching K 12, because it pulls so much from you and your kids need so much. And, I think that that mindset and that heart is really important to have. And, one of the things he did in his career is he shifted in and out of the classroom.

Ana Torres: (38:57)
Yes, yes.

Ana Torres: (38:58)
That is something that doesn't get discussed a lot. For teachers, when we leave the classroom, sometimes there's a guilt or a shame that kind of happens. Not that we're not proud of what we did, but like we're not part of the crew in the trenches anymore. Right? But I think that mindset can be shifted. I don't know if you know the story about the two guys chopping down the tree? And one guy stops and takes a break every 15 minutes and the other one just keeps going the whole time. And the guy that takes the break, he chops down the tree the fastest. And the other guy says, "How come you chopped the tree down faster? You took breaks." And he goes, "Every time I took a break, I was sharpening my ax." Those breaks are similar for us in the classroom. Like sometimes, you teach, and then maybe you go into a different position. But then you come back, because you're sharpening your ax. You're recharging. And that allows you to be there for more kids. And that's what I heard him saying a lot in what he was doing throughout his career, which helped with that longevity.

Ana Torres: (39:50)
So I'm thinking about a couple of things you said: "Content. Looking at being more than just content," right? And how do you feel—as you're a Classroom Insider, right? You're day in and day out in the trenches. How do you feel our listeners out there could really apply that to the classroom today?

Ana Torres: (40:07)
I would start with what he, when he talked about the mini Magna Carta.

Ana Torres: (40:10)
The Magna Carta. Yes.

Eric Jones: (40:11)
That's fresh in my mind right now as someone who's going back with brand new students. And, you know, to summarize, these are basically collaborative norms. And you know, you come in and you're building that culture in the beginning. You know, I always say that teachers are thermostats, not thermometers. We control the temperature of the room. We don't react to it. Because if you react to it, then you're just going to react to whatever they create, which may not be what you want. And so one main takeaway is, in the beginning of the school year—it doesn't have to be be the beginning, it could be any time—I'm going to create those collaborative norms with my students. And I've had this done with me in groups. And here's one thing that doesn't often get talked about: In the best groups that I've been in, we went back to the collaborative norms daily for like two weeks. And, it got to the point where I was like, "Why are we doing this over and over and over again?" But, you know, what it did? Is it made these norms concrete. Not just a thing that we did to check off a box. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's easy to go in and go, "Okay, I'm going to, we're going to create these class rules and then they're just gonna be on the wall and we're never gonna revisit them." But when you come back to them daily to start off your classroom and say, "Let's go over our norms. What does respect look like? What does it look like to recognize that your impact and your intent might be different, and that you have to own your impact?" When you talk about that, and you do that regularly for a period of time to where the kids are like, "Are we gonna talk about this again?" Now, you know that it's kind of ingrained into what your class is about, and that's going to pay off later when you're dealing with less issues, when you're dealing with a positive classroom environment, when you have what you want. And I think that that was really gold when Eric said that.

Ana Torres: (41:49)
That's a great takeaway, Eric. So cool that you are going to try this out. That Magna Carta aspect also was something that resonated with me. Are there any other final thoughts or advice you have for our listeners out there, Mr. Classroom Insider?

Ana Torres: (42:06)
Well, I would say, you know, based on what Eric was saying, is what I took from it: Whether you're starting off or whether you're continuing your teaching journey, make sure that your primary focus is on teaching the students, and not just the subjects. Every kid that walks into your classroom is unique and they're deserving of respect and attention. And so, simple things like greeting them warmly, appreciating their effort, showing genuine interest in their growth. And again, this is something that's a marathon, not a sprint. So often, it's easy to start off doing this, but then kind of like lose steam over time. And so being consistent with it. Also, not being afraid of change. Especially when it comes to technology. I think that Eric said that cell phones were were witchcraft.

Ana Torres: (42:44)
Witchcraft. I loved when he said that.

Ana Torres: (42:47)
Yeah, exactly. And so adapting to like new tools and not losing sight of the essence of good teaching. Like he wants to sit down and do the story time, that's the human part of it. But then also recognizing that those tools can be really, really useful. Another thing would be being prepared to address issues like bullying head on. And remembering that we're in the education business, not the punishment business. You know, I think he said that he's not about vengeance. And he says if a child misbehaves, he sees it as an opportunity to teach them how to behave better. For me, it's easy sometimes to come in and expect students to know something by a certain age, but the reality is, they're all growing up differently. And it's my job, especially as I'm teaching younger kids, to remember, oh, you are 12 or you're nine, you're still learning this.

Ana Torres: (43:31)
Exactly.

Eric Jones: (43:32)
I need to teach it to you. Versus the "They should know," right? There's a lot of that. "They should know." Really, why did you grow up with 'em? Like, I, I don't have their life experience. I might have known, but that's not the same for all of our kids. And then lastly, loving what you do. You know, teaching is challenging and there's a lot of times where you might feel burnt out, but loving teaching and loving working with kids, you'll find ways to stay energized and taking those breaks and always remembering that they're human beings. And that, you know, if you appreciate their politeness, intelligence, and their unique qualities and see them as individuals and make them feel like there's mutual respect, that was something for him that was really, really powerful. Because when it goes both ways, it creates a different atmosphere in your classroom. It makes learning really, really exciting.

Ana Torres: (44:17)
Well, I want to thank you for joining us, and giving us your takeaways. And also your thoughts and advice as you are starting your first few days of school. So we appreciate all your advice, Eric, and I'll catch up with you soon.

Ana Torres: (44:31)
Sounds good. Great interview. It's fun to listen to.

Ana Torres: (44:33)
Thank you, Eric. Thanks for listening to this episode of Beyond My Years from Amplify. I am your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is from Andrew Smolin. Next time on the show, I am joined by a brilliant math educator who's going to share her incredible story of resilience.

Fawn Nguyen: (45:03)
I wait[ed] until Friday afternoon when school was out. I told my principal in the hallway that I was quitting, as in, "I'm not coming back on Monday." She replied to me as if I had asked her a question. She said, "No, Fawn, you are going to take some time off and return after that."

Ana Torres: (45:22)
The best way to catch this is by subscribing to Beyond My Years wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, please leave us a rating and a review. It will help more people find this new show. And for more information on this podcast, visit our website, amplify.com/beyondmyyears. So until next time, remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life. I am Ana Torres. Thank you so much for listening.