Beyond My Years

The right questions for the “wrong” answers, starring Dan Meyer, Ph.D.

• Amplify Education • Season 2 • Episode 2

Share episode

On this episode of Beyond My Years, host Ana Torres is joined by Dan Meyer, Ph.D., Vice President of User Growth at Amplify and former Chief Academic Officer at Desmos. Dan’s journey in education began much like that of many other teachers—with a love of his content area. But entering the classroom proved difficult as he struggled to engage students who didn’t share his interest in math. In this episode, Dan gives listeners insight into his secret for engaging students in anything. He provides models for grounding lessons in real life, giving students more opportunities to show off their personalities, and reframing mistakes and “wrong answers” as valuable answers to different questions. He also touches on technology use in the classroom and how to know when it's the right tool for the job. Ana and Classroom insider Eric Cross then reflect on Dan’s insights, and Eric shares his top takeaways for the classroom.

Show notes: 

Quotes: 

“The posters are one thing, but the pedagogies are another.” —Dan Meyer, Ph.D.

“What I'm always thinking about is how to make math more like the humanities, how to allow students to be right in personal ways and wrong in smart ways.” —Dan Meyer, Ph.D.

“Kids like and learn from teachers who like and learn from them.”—Dan Meyer, Ph.D.

“As human beings, sometimes we can get binary with things like tech or analog. But in reality, it's a tool. If I use the proper tool for the right job, I can be much more precise and accurate and detailed and creative.” —Eric Cross

“Education is the kind of job that I love because I think I'll always feel, to some degree, like an amateur, like a learner in the work.”—Dan Meyer, Ph.D.

“Create spaces where every kid could come in and say, “Whatever I offer here, if it's personal and earnest, it's gonna be well received and valuable.” —Dan Meyer, Ph.D.

[00:00:00] Dan Meyer: The idea that I found was to back up away from the precise and formal math and instead tap into their more intuitive and concrete skills where every kid can have a different right answer. 

[00:00:14] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres and welcome back to Beyond My Years from Amplify. I am here for the second episode of Season 2 with our Classroom Insider, Eric Cross.

[00:00:27] Ana Torres: How's it going, Eric Cross? 

[00:00:29] Eric Cross: It's going great. Starting off the fall. Excited to be back in the classroom and excited to be here with you at the beginning of the episodes too. 

[00:00:36] Ana Torres: Yeah, that's exciting. So on each episode this season, we're bringing you tried and true tips and incredible stories. We're also devoting each episode to a different real-life challenge that educators like you face.

[00:00:52] Ana Torres: And today's episode is going to be all about how to engage students. I love this topic. 

[00:00:59] Eric Cross: It's so important. It's super important because when you're not engaged, you're not learning. So I think this is critical for no matter who you teach, what age, and I'm going to be honest, like even adults, because I've sat in professional developments where I'm not engaged, and I realized that, I was like, "Oh, I'm like, my students!" 

[00:01:15] Ana Torres: We're actually worse than our students. 

[00:01:17] Eric Cross: You know that's right. You're absolutely right. Especially when you're the one leading the PD, you're like, "I should probably apply these strategies too." So engagement is something that is foundational to getting students interested in the learning and then really pushing them and applying what they're learning to deeper thinking.

[00:01:30] Eric Cross: And so if we really focus on that, then we've hooked them and then we can bring them to where we want them to go. And I think math is a big one because math could be one of those things, I know for me, when I was younger, it one of those abstract things that I couldn't really connect to and engage with because it was just kind of words and numbers on paper. So I had a hard time with it. 

[00:01:48] Ana Torres: Well, today's guest is Dan Meyer and he is one of the top voices in math education. And Dan's really honest about the fact that his initial ideas for engaging students in math didn't necessarily always work. So let's bring them on and then we're going to check back in later and unpack it all.

[00:02:08] Ana Torres: How does that sound? 

[00:02:09] Eric Cross: Sounds good. I look forward to listening. 

[00:02:13] Ana Torres: On today's episode, I am joined by my colleague, Dan Meyer. Dan is now the vice president of user growth at Amplify, and he is one of this country's leading thinkers on math education. But before all of that, Dan was a math teacher. Dan came to a pretty important realization that a lot of common methods and ideas for engaging students, they weren't working.

[00:02:40] Ana Torres: Sometimes it just don't work, y'all. So what he did next is what we're going to focus on today, and I'm so excited. So welcome Dan Meyer, my amazing colleague here at Amplify. Woo. 

[00:02:53] Dan Meyer: Thanks Ana. So happy to be here. I really feel like I've made it now that I'm a guest on the Beyond My Years podcast. 

[00:02:58] Ana Torres: Now before we jump in anything, and I'm so glad that you're excited to be on our podcast, is how long have you been in education, Dan? 

[00:03:06] Dan Meyer: Been in education about 20 years, about six of that in the classroom, and then after that, doing teacher coaching, doing curriculum work here at Amplify, doing some research at Stanford. I've been an educator really, professionally, since I started getting, you know, W2s and being a tax paying adult—educator's been at the top of my resume.

[00:03:23] Ana Torres: So you've done a little bit of everything. In Spanish, we say, "un poco de todo." 

[00:03:27] Dan Meyer: Amazing. Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:28] Ana Torres: Do you feel like you're a seasoned educator because you've done un poco de todo, Dan? 

[00:03:33] Dan Meyer: Gosh, I still go into classrooms, , not like to observe, but to actually teach. So I was doing summer school earlier this summer with some kids who are, as you might imagine, not thrilled to be learning math in the summer. And, I still get my butt handed to me pretty regularly by kids, you know? Go in there with a lesson that I think is going to kill, and I wind up getting killed. Like, that kind of thing is just always very helpful for me. So education's the kind of job I love because I think I'll always feel to some degree like an amateur, like a learner in the work.

[00:04:04] Ana Torres: Yes. I mean, this field humbles us on a daily basis, doesn't it? 

[00:04:08] Dan Meyer: Yes. Yes. 

[00:04:09] Ana Torres: Now, I promised our listeners that we're going to take them back to the early Dan Meyer years, right? So set the scene for us though a little bit, Dan. So what kind of school were you teaching in and where were you in that point in your early career?

[00:04:23] Dan Meyer: I'm super curious how common this story is, but I loved the thing that I eventually taught. I've got to believe that's true for lots of teachers, right? So I loved mathematics. I wound up like just zipping through math, right? Like I graduated in three years, I just love math and just devoured it.

[00:04:38] Ana Torres: Can I ask you why? Why did you love math, Dan? 

[00:04:41] Dan Meyer: There's just parts of it just made sense to me, it clicked, I wound up liking, here's the challenge I'm going to share with you about my first year is I came to realize that I was a liability to myself as a teacher. I went in thinking, here's what I'll say about it. I thought to myself, I love what I was going to teach. I also really liked teachers. I liked the hierarchical authority, like I identified with them. I wanted to be them. All this, and I go into, as a 21-year-old, you know, into this, into a high school where I'm not that much older than these kids. I'm still, I can't grow a mustache. And that kind of thing. And I came to realize like, "Oh, I'm my own worst enemy in trying to teach these kids. Because A, they do not enjoy math as I do and did. And also I walk into that class, I'm like, "Oh, so you like your teachers, right? Like you're deferential to them, you dig them, you want to be them a little bit." And that wasn't true. Same with a lot of the ways I tried to engage them in mathematics also wound up being ineffective. And I had to learn a whole lot about human nature and about kids and about creativity, en route to learning how to engage them and help them learn.

[00:05:46] Ana Torres: Wow. And you used the word liability, and I'm assuming that all came with reflection, right Dan? Like you kind of went, "Ooh, back in the day, I probably wasn't the best or the most, you know, I was excited about it, but didn't know exactly where that was all going to lead." So with that, what are some of those misconceptions that you found?

[00:06:05] Dan Meyer: Yeah. Here's the fast forward version, and I'll just jump back in time. The fast forward version is I came into class thinking like, "Okay, I want to help you see that I'm awesome." I first thought I would like motivate by way of being like this like, cool teacher you love. Right? Very ineffective in large part because coolness does not come naturally to me.

[00:06:22] Dan Meyer: And then the next part was, I was like, "I'm going to help you see that math is awesome." And so that led to these ideas about how math can work as a career objective for you or how math might apply to the world outside the classroom for you. Also ineffective and limited. What really hit for me was helping kids realize not that I'm awesome or that math is awesome, but that they are awesome, which can sound like a poster or a slogan or something, but it really is this idea that I learned. That every kid comes into a class wanting to be seen for what they are good at, for the assets they bring, and not for the ways that they are deficient or broken, which is so often the message they get from classes.

[00:07:02] Dan Meyer: So how do you do that in math class, right? In math class it's oftentimes hard to do compared to the humanities and their other kinds of classes where they get to feel like they bring their opinions and their intuitions and their creativity. The idea that I found was to back up, away from the precise informal math, the calculation, the solution, the one right number to a problem, and instead ask kids to tap into their more intuitive and concrete skills where every kid can have a different "right" answer.

[00:07:32] Dan Meyer: This is the main thing: that kids in math class can have different answers that are right. And that they can be wrong in a smart way. That was key for me, is helping create spaces where every kid could come in and say like, "Whatever I offer here, if it's personal and earnest, it's going to be well received and valuable. And even if I'm wrong, my teacher will see me as wrong in a smart way."

[00:07:55] Dan Meyer: That's what helped the kids who are usually so locked down and clamped up, help them lock in and to share more with their teacher. So I'd ask for things like, instead of calculate, I'd ask, "What do you notice?" Instead of, " What's the solution here?" " What are you wondering about this?" Or instead of like, "What's the answer?" "How would you compare these two things?" Like questions where there's again, so many different ways to be right, and even wrongness is smart as well. 

[00:08:19] Ana Torres: Let's back up just a little bit. Let's think about that early attempt to show that math, because you talked about math being cool and you being cool, what did that look like? 

[00:08:30] Dan Meyer: Well, you know, there's like Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society, you know, standing on desks using funny voices, being the classroom entertainer. 

[00:08:39] Ana Torres: And I've seen movie, I've seen that movie, Dan. 

[00:08:41] Dan Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. An exhausting way to teach with very limited returns. And then the other moves, you know, like, " isn't math awesome? You can get a job someday?" Well, these kids like , "I don't want to go through all this pain now to do a job in this thing math, I hate, later." Like it was a very terrible carrot to offer the kids.

[00:08:58] Ana Torres: What was the low moment or a moment where it really sunk in that things needed to change. 

[00:09:04] Dan Meyer: Yeah, I mean, I would just bring these worksheets and word problems that included math out there in the world. Like everyone had told me like, "Hey, here is what kids need is more real-world math."

[00:09:15] Dan Meyer: And I would just watch this. Kids were like, " This is not doing it for me. Like I'm bored here." And that's when I came to wonder like what else is going on right now? And to realize it's not just real world that kids want, it's real work. It's like work that allows for them to bring their personality, their personhood to it in the same way that they do in English and writing and history and even science.

[00:09:39] Dan Meyer: Where the questions like, "What do you think or what are you wondering or what do you got going on" are so much more common. In math class, why I was such a liability to my kids was again, just this idea, like I was so successful on a certain path, it made me less interested in understanding the paths that they were on except to say, "How do I help you get over on my path?" Versus " What can I learn from how you are thinking about things?" I would spend so much time on these word problems and worksheets about the world, it was so depressing to see how they would just fall flat. And that had me motivated to like find other ways to spend my, you know, my precious time and energy than making these worksheets.

[00:10:18] Ana Torres: I remember in my class we would like read the word problem, like put your name in it, right? Pretend it's some... But then it's like rows of this and crops... and so that it would get boring. So you're absolutely right. So what else did you do? 

[00:10:31] Dan Meyer: So instead, what I started to do, is being really attentive to when I was using math in my daily life.

[00:10:36] Dan Meyer: One version of this was, I was at a grocery store wondering which line to get into. And there's a way to answer that mathematically. But if I bring that to the class with, "Okay, here's the word problem, it's got the equation in it, there's definitely one right answer." Falls flat on kids, because they feel, again, like they are a supporting character in someone else's story. So instead what I did is I would take digital photos of the situation, I would grab video, and I would bring that into class and project that on the screen. And it doesn't feel mathematical yet. It feels open. It feels like kids are experiencing the world on its own terms.

[00:11:09] Dan Meyer: And I would ask kids, "So what do you notice? What do you wonder? What line would you choose of these lines? Why? What are you looking at here? What info seems important to you?" Versus me telling you, "Here's the important information" and how you'll use it.

[00:11:22] Dan Meyer: Kids would say things like, you know, "Well, I'm looking at the checker, who's slower or faster, who's got more produce, or more carts or more items?" And kids are bringing of themselves there and realizing that I am interested in them and the experiences and assets that they bring into class.

[00:11:39] Dan Meyer: That's the main thing I was doing, was using all these powerful tools, computers, photos, digital media, to back up off the formal and precise math. Not permanently, but for a moment, to have this extra initial moment that was open to all kinds of student creativity and thinking. And that's when kids would start to realize like, "Oh, he thinks not just that he's awesome or math's awesome, but he thinks that I'm awesome as well," which was the key.

[00:12:04] Ana Torres: And I appreciate that you also mentioned there's more than one way to get the right answer, and even if the answer's incorrect, there's value in that. And I'm going to take you back to my experience as a math student. I love teaching math, Dan, because of the fact that I was never seen as a student who was good at math.

[00:12:25] Ana Torres: So I made it a point to be that math teacher that actually embraced a community of, "Hey! Let's look at all the possibilities of how we can get to that answer." So, I'm just like, my heart is jumping out of my chest. I wish I would've had you be my instructor, which you're not old enough to be, so let's just get that clear.

[00:12:45] Ana Torres: So, I really am digging that these strategies that you're sharing and you're meeting students where they are and you know, you provided them a very safe environment. And then you were able to actually have them do the math. And like you used the word "awesome" like making sure students feel awesome, but making sure students feel seen.

[00:13:04] Ana Torres: Right. That's so important in any discipline. So what are other things that you did to make all of this work in your classroom? 

[00:13:14] Dan Meyer: Yeah, I mean, whenever I tuned into myself doing math in my life, bring students in using media like photos and videos, bring that to kids and have them like try to sit down and see it as I saw it then, not in the, like the chewed up mathematical way where it's all been digested into numbers and equations and all that, but just the world on its own. So bring those moments in, very powerful .To ask questions where kids can all be right in ways that are personal to them.

[00:13:39] Dan Meyer: So I'm talking about, again, questions like predictions, estimations, questioning comparisons, get measurements, "what measurements do you want?" And the one that was really transformative for me that I'll share is, when there's a common wrong answer in the class, to understand— there's a lot of posters out there that's like, "Mistakes in this class, mistakes are inspected, expected, respected, corrected, blah, blah, blah."

[00:14:00] Dan Meyer: The posters are one thing, but the pedagogy's another. And so to say, "Kids, hey. There is a really common wrong answer I'm seeing right now." And you know what? It is really interesting to treat that wrong answer like I've just been given a piece of candy I could unwrap, right? And then to say to kids, "It's actually the right answer to a different question."

[00:14:23] Dan Meyer: Here is that wrong answer. Can anyone tell me what question it answered perfectly? Which just does fantastic things for everybody in the class, right? For the kids who had the right answer, their thinking is deepened. For the kids who had the wrong answer, they come to see their wrong answers not just something shameful, but something that can be useful for the edification and learning of the whole class. And indeed, the right answer if the original question was interpreted a little differently. So that's what I'm always thinking about, is how to make math more like the humanities, how to allow students to be right in personal ways and wrong in smart ways.

[00:14:57] Dan Meyer: And that on a day in, day out kind of basis, I've just seen such transformative results for kids. 

[00:15:03] Ana Torres: Well, and taking that, like you said, wrong answer and saying, "Okay. May not be correct in this instance. Where could this work?" Magic, right Dan? Like, wow. So, you've touched on quite a few other examples as well. But we've got listeners out there who'd love to know more advice on how to get there. And so, what are some lessons that you can share, especially for that newer educator that's listening, saying, "But where do I start? Dan's been doing this two decades. He's been able to kind of reflect, but I'm a newer teacher out there. How do I start?" 

[00:15:37] Dan Meyer: Yeah, it's, it's wild. Like, you know, how much can someone learn from my fast forwarded version of my journey here versus you've got to run into the same walls to some degree on your own.

[00:15:47] Dan Meyer: Ana Torres

[00:15:47] Dan Meyer: Agreed. Right.

[00:15:48] Dan Meyer: Dan Meyer 

[00:15:48] Dan Meyer: I would just say to invest a little time to start with, to invest a little time every day in the acts of questioning and prediction, for instance. You can do things like grabbing images from estimation180.com, where you'll just like get some wild image that has some countable thing and ask your kids, "How many do you think, what's the number you think is too low, number you think is too high?"

[00:16:11] Dan Meyer: And just share those predictions and then share the answer. Making estimations, some of those softer skills, more accessible mathematical skills, those lower rungs on the mathematical ladder, make those accessible to more kids to start with. And then you start asking yourself, if your kids catch the buzz there and they're like, "Wow!" Like, I got engagement from kids I'd never seen talk before in class for instance. And then you start moving into your main lesson and those kids clam up again, that might provoke you to start wondering, "Well, how can I bridge those two worlds? Like in what ways can the mathematics of adding integers or fractions or, you know, counting on or whatever, how can I start to make those more accessible to those kids?"

[00:16:51] Dan Meyer: I saw those kids, they were, they were buzzing for this question, but not for this one. What implications does that have? So that's the one small way to start is to grab some image from life and just ask some estimation-based question about it. 

[00:17:04] Ana Torres: You know, what about those educators that have been doing it maybe as long as you, how do you, how do we get them re-energized to this particular way of kind of thinking? And it's almost like a mind shift, because, "what if I don't know math like I should, or that teacher that was like me, that was a self-contained teacher that had to teach everything?" Right? 

[00:17:24] Dan Meyer: Totally. Yes. Yeah. And so like one thing that I'm working on currently in my career as an educator is, like I've spent like 10 years trying to figure out, how do I communicate the value of kids from the teacher to the kids, right? That was a job of curriculum and pedagogy and all that. And now I'm trying to do a better job of helping kids assign value to each other, like how to get kids in conversation with each other more. And so this is where I'm a work in progress 100%. But I will say I love, I love controversy now much more than when I started teaching. In math class at the start, it's like math is great because it's the absence of controversy. There is a definitive right answer to every single question. Ask questions without definitive right answers, prioritize the journey over the destination, and all of a sudden controversy starts to arise. And how to get kids in conversation with each other to see value in one another and to learn from one another.

[00:18:19] Dan Meyer: So like for instance, we have these card sorts in, the Amplify Desmos Math curriculum. Kids are moving cards around underneath, like headers, linear, quadratic ratio, whatever. And what I love about this system is that we can tell you on the back end of things, which card was the most commonly incorrectly grouped card. Like our robots are like, looking at everyone's sortings and saying, "this card is the one, this card is the one that people are struggling with."

[00:18:46] Dan Meyer: I'll put that up on the board and tell kids, "Hey, this one is the hardest for us right now." Not telling any group who got it right or wrong. Just like, "y'all know it's hard. Talk to your neighbors about where you have it and why." And you know how you know you did it right is like the buzz. Like it's it's an audio assessment of pedagogy where it's like, there's questions you ask and there's nothing. And you're like, "Oh, that one was not accessible."

[00:19:10] Dan Meyer: So there's all kinds of moments like that. I've got kids like making, they make a graph and they write a story about it. And I can put up with our system, I'll grab several students, their graph of their story and their written description of their story, and I'll shuffle them. I'll shuffle those up and then tell the class, "Hey, which graph of yours matches which story of yours?" And this is again, like me trying to say, making the kids the curriculum as it were. Like, there's the initial curriculum that you can get from somebody, hopefully Amplify. Then there's the next layer, which is the kids and their thinking becomes that deeper, richer curriculum. That's what I'm working on right now. 

[00:19:48] Ana Torres: So that example brings me to something that we talked about, Dan. The importance of thinking of ed tech as a tool that can be used for engaging students. So can you elaborate a little bit more about that for our listeners?

[00:20:02] Dan Meyer: Yeah, also just relational in addition, like someone, so many people they bring their technology in and it's like, "Alright kids, everyone get on your one device and I'll see you in 30 minutes. Y'all going to do your own thing." And that just contrasts in such an ugly way against how we adults use technology in our personal lives to create, to connect with people in our lives, like they're social amplifiers, right?

[00:20:27] Dan Meyer: So we use technology in ways where kids are exposed to one another's thinking through the use of the tool, like I just said. The teacher sees all these student responses and has tools to help build on student responses, like making the kids the curriculum and so on. And also, like so often in these technological tools, kids will type in a thought, a sincere thought they worked hard on, and they see one of two things, you're right or you're wrong. And it's like, "Okay, if you're wrong, like was there anything value in my wrongness here?"

[00:20:58] Dan Meyer: So, you know, when we created our curriculum, students will type an answer in and whatever that is right or wrong, they're going to see something in an interactive, a visualization of the world. They're going to type in a coordinate to tell the crab where to dig on the island and whether they're right or wrong, they're going to see the crab go and dig somewhere on the island that they told them to. Out in the water maybe. The crab's drowning. I don't know. But like we've used technology to do more than just kind of evaluate the kid and tell the kid, "Hey, you're broken in this way. Go watch a video," you know? But rather, "Hey, what you did was interesting and had value. Here's what it is." 

[00:21:37] Ana Torres: So using technology, obviously as a tool to engage students, you know, has great outcomes. But at the same time, Dan, you and I both know that there's some concerns about that, right? Like how much time students are spending on the screen, you know, how do we balance that?

[00:21:55] Dan Meyer: Yeah, I love it. I treat it as like a coffee table book, you know. I treat it as, when I'm doing my lesson in the summer, kids are on their devices for max five minutes at a stretch. So they are doing enough on the device so that I can tell them, "Alright, everyone put your laptops down to a fist, apples up, Pac-Man mode," whatever you say. Right? " Here is the conversation you're about to have verbally with each other, not on devices. What I'm saying is, it takes you five minutes, make your graph, write your story." The value then is I see all of those and I can grab them and shuffle them, and then up on the screen behind me, that's the conversation starter. That's what's going to drive our math learning for the next 10 minutes.

[00:22:38] Dan Meyer: So I use it as a way to gather the kids' thinking to become the curriculum. It's not the sort of thing where the relationship happens device to kids, the device enables the relationship teacher to kids and kids to kids is the goal.

[00:22:52] Ana Torres: So you're basically saying as a teacher, because I will admit I was that teacher. Although I appreciated technology, you know, I was Promethean board-trained, I could be super interactive, I always hesitated because of finding that really fine balance with too much screen time, enough screen time, are students collaborating enough?

[00:23:15] Dan Meyer: Yep. 

[00:23:16] Ana Torres: So I appreciate you sharing that. It can be used effectively. 

[00:23:19] Dan Meyer: It's all about quality, not quantity. It's the kind of use, not the amount of use. 

[00:23:23] Ana Torres: Agreed. This has been very exciting. Is there anything you want to leave, before we wind down and do a really fun segment called Wisdom Nuggets with Dan, we're just going to call it that for, for today. Any last pieces of advice that you want to share with our listeners today? 

[00:23:41] Dan Meyer: Yeah, I just, I think that kids like and learn from teachers who like and learn from them. If I could go back in time and tell my younger self anything, it'd be that. It's like, " You're thinking too much about yourself, you're thinking too much about the mathematics." That's important, but not at the expense of kids feeling like their teachers are interested in them and curious about them, and see them as the curriculum right alongside the adopted curriculum in the books, in the classroom. 

[00:24:08] Ana Torres: You know, at the end of the day, and you know, with pretty much every single person that I talk to for this podcast, that student-centered perspective is where we need to be, right? Like taking ourselves and our egos out of the equation, because let's be clear, you know, we are kind of the center stage, right? So I mean, I love to be the performer. But again, you know, realizing that we're, you know, we're really in this profession to touch student lives.

[00:24:34] Ana Torres: So Thank you, Dan. 

[00:24:35] Dan Meyer: Thank you. 

[00:24:36] Ana Torres: Now we're going to do our Wisdom. I love how Dan right now is taking both of his hands and is ready for this. So we are going to do the Wisdom Nuggets segment with Dan Meyer. 

[00:24:47] Dan Meyer: I'm ready. I'm ready. 

[00:24:47] Ana Torres: Okay. If you weren't an educator, what would you do for work? 

[00:24:50] Dan Meyer: Uh, Hollywood screenwriter, but likely a CPA. Probably that an, an accountant, you know, if I'm being real.

[00:24:58] Ana Torres: What's one resource that you would recommend to educators? 

[00:25:01] Dan Meyer: Oh, shoot. I love Dylan Kane, KANE, his Substack. He's a teacher, been at it for a while, so, he's real. But he also like zooms up a little bit. Brings in some theory with the practice. 

[00:25:12] Ana Torres: What's the strangest item you had in your classroom?

[00:25:14] Dan Meyer: I had a gorilla head bust, like a a fake gorilla head, life sized. My dad was a sixth grade science teacher for 34 years, and, I inherited that from him. Let the kids know that something wacky is going to happen here. 

[00:25:28] Ana Torres: And I think whenever you're with Dan, something wacky is going to happen.

[00:25:32] Ana Torres: Tell us the name of a mentor educator. What quality did they have to, you know, make them great? 

[00:25:40] Dan Meyer: Yeah. I had such good math teachers in high school. Sid Bishop, Ukiah High School. Man, he always could help let you think that you were the first person to ever say a thing or think a thing. 

[00:25:52] Ana Torres: Don't you love that? 

[00:25:53] Dan Meyer: Even if he, like, had already seen us a hundred times, he'd, you know, purse his lips and furrow his brow and you'd think you were just like really doing something special.

[00:26:01] Ana Torres: And sounds like he made you feel special. And you've carried that tradition as well, just listening to you.

[00:26:06] Ana Torres: Dan Meyer

[00:26:06] Ana Torres: I do my best.

[00:26:06] Ana Torres: Ana Torres 

[00:26:07] Ana Torres: Yeah. So, what was always in your candy or snack jar? 

[00:26:12] Dan Meyer: Almond Joy. Controversial pick maybe, but Almond Joy. Yeah. 

[00:26:16] Ana Torres: I'm not surprised. Why am I not surprised?

[00:26:18] Ana Torres: Whiteboard or smart board, Dan? 

[00:26:20] Dan Meyer: Whiteboard. Easy. you've got to project onto that thing right on top of it. Whiteboard, for sure. 

[00:26:25] Ana Torres: Color printed copies or an in-classroom laminator. 

[00:26:29] Dan Meyer: Laminator. Kids can handle black-and-white. Come on. 

[00:26:31] Ana Torres: Exactly. Now, slow wifi or no wifi? 

[00:26:34] Dan Meyer: No wifi. 

[00:26:35] Ana Torres: Small-group or whole-group instruction?

[00:26:37] Dan Meyer: I like the whole group. I like the whole group. It's a performer. 

[00:26:40] Ana Torres: Performer. Yep. Surprise fire drill doing your best lesson, Dan? Or technology completely failing during an observation? 

[00:26:50] Dan Meyer: Failing an observation. What are they going to? They going to fire me? Come on. Come on. 

[00:26:53] Ana Torres: That would always be what I would say too. 

[00:26:55] Dan Meyer: Yeah. We'll talk about it. 

[00:26:56] Ana Torres: So on your tough days, what reminds you of why [00:27:00] you're passionate about education? Because I heard the passion throughout our conversation. 

[00:27:04] Dan Meyer: Yeah. I think when kids have the aha moment. Everyone talks about that, but not the aha moment about math, but the aha moment about themselves. That realization that like, "Oh, I've got some game here. Like I'm smarter than even I thought I was in math here. That's the sustaining moment for me. 

[00:27:21] Ana Torres: Dan. I can't believe our time is up. It was really a blast. But before we go, we always allow all of our guests to do a shout out. Shout out of a, district or you know, home district that's really near and dear to your heart. Actually, you can shout out anyone at this point. Who would you like to shout out, Dan? 

[00:27:39] Dan Meyer: I'm going to shout out my home district of Oakland Unified. Like real teachers. Real teachers doing real work with real kids and they're always game to let me come on by and do a little guest spot in a classroom. So I appreciate how open they are to a tourist like me coming on back in, try things out. 

[00:27:56] Ana Torres: Well, shout out to you from Dan Meyer, Oakland Unified! [00:28:00] Well, Dan, you know, I feel like we need a part two of this, so let's talk about that and let's do it again sometime. 

[00:28:06] Dan Meyer: Let's do it. Thanks Ana. Appreciate you.

[00:28:08] Ana Torres: Thank you, Dan.

[00:28:12] Ana Torres: That was Dan Meyer, vice president of user growth at Amplify. We'll have links in the show notes to learn more about Dan's amazing work. But now let's bring back Classroom Insider Eric Cross.

[00:28:26] Ana Torres: All right. Classroom Insider Eric Cross is back with me. What did you think of what Dan had to say? 

[00:28:33] Eric Cross: I couldn't keep up with, there were so many things that were being said. And one of the things I liked the most is that these strategies that Dan was talking about are not just isolated to the math classroom.

[00:28:42] Eric Cross: These are things that we could all do. That's what I loved about this. It really engaged me in the podcast. 

[00:28:47] Ana Torres: Yes, like that, you know, it goes bigger than just engaging in math. It could be in any subject area. So we're going to start unpacking and we're going to start with a couple of your takeaways.

[00:28:59] Eric Cross: The first one I loved that Dan started off with was really saying student-centered, and it was, "Show your students that they matter more than showing off your content, but allowing your students to feel like and see themselves as being valuable and have strength and lifting them up." Design activities where there's not like a right or wrong necessarily. Asking them open-ended questions like, "What do you notice? What do you wonder?" And then showcasing them. And there is an art to that too, because showcasing doesn't look the same for every student. Some students might like to be the center of attention. Sometimes showcasing a student might just be putting something on the wall or going to them privately, but really making your students the center of the classroom more than your content.

[00:29:40] Ana Torres: Yes. Well, and it goes back to something that I always remember that you said in our previous season is, "We are more than just the content that we teach." So, you know, like you said, showing those students that they matter, showing up for them first and that student-centeredness. So what was your second one this time?

[00:29:59] Eric Cross: The next one was, start with real life and then add content. So I'm listening to this and as I'm listening to Dan talk, one, I also want to give a shout out to Dan for being in the classroom still, even if he is not full-time teaching. When he said he was teaching summer school, I was like, "What? Okay!" Because things change. But the idea of talking about a math problem, but he was going to show a picture of a grocery store, and then asking students questions about the checkout line and things like that. Like it makes things so accessible. And as I was listening to that, as a science teacher, these are similar things that we do when we're teaching phenomena.

[00:30:36] Eric Cross: And in those situations, you're drawing on your students funds of knowledge. Things that they bring to the table, especially if it's something local that they can connect with. You know, you're teaching them ratios and you just have pictures of different drinks for the money, and which one's the best bank for the buck. And these are a lot of things that we can relate to. I know I could. My mom used coupons growing up. You know, and she taught me to look at the price per ounce and all those different things. And I still do that today when I'm buying like mac and cheese or something.

[00:31:00] Eric Cross: And so that really practical application plus the creativity, like we all have cameras with us, and initiating your lesson with something like that is something that we could all do. And asking questions that make it accessible for everybody is a great way to kick something off versus it could be the same type of lesson, but on paper. Just, you know, asking questions about a grocery store and something about just seeing text and numbers can just make your eyes glaze over for some students, you know?

[00:31:28] Eric Cross: So I think that small adjustment can really enhance engagement. I can definitely see it in my classroom when I'm able to do things like that. 

[00:31:34] Ana Torres: Well, I mean, and when do we always hear students say, "Well, when am I ever going to use this?" Right? And so that goes to that whole question that I would always get. "Maestra, when am I going to ever use this?"

[00:31:46] Ana Torres: Actually, I love teaching math, although that was not the subject that I had the most prowess in when I was a student. But I remember students asking me about decimals. "When are we ever going to use it?" And my question would be, "Where do you see decimals in the real world?" And I had a student say, "Well, I see it all the time we go to the gas station."

[00:32:05] Ana Torres: So I love that part of, "Here's how we can answer that question of when are we ever going to to use this?" So I know you have another takeaway. You may have more than just another one after this, but talk to me about your third one today. 

[00:32:18] Eric Cross: I couldn't pick my favorites. So this one really speaks to me. Ana, you know, I'm a tech person.

[00:32:22] Eric Cross: Ana Torres 

[00:32:23] Eric Cross: Yes.

[00:32:23] Eric Cross: Eric Cross 

[00:32:23] Eric Cross: I love my technology. And it was this takeaway of use technology to spark talk and engagement, but not replace it. And as human beings, sometimes we can get binary with things you're like tech or analog. But in, in reality, it's a tool. 

[00:32:37] Ana Torres: It is. 

[00:32:38] Eric Cross: It is. And it's, if I use the proper tool for the right job, I can be much more precise and accurate and detailed and creative. And so I have one-to-one Chromebooks in the classroom. And there are times and lessons when the tech is a great tool. But you know what? There's times where I need to close it and we need to go analog. And throughout the lesson in the same class.

[00:32:59] Eric Cross: And that's taking the best tool for the job in that situation. And so this kind of blended learning, you know, maybe the kids are on their device for five minutes, as Dan said, then laptops close. Okay. Now we're going to do a turn and talk, and then we reengage and we're going to do a classroom poll, or we're going to do a digital whiteboard, and then we're going to get up and we're going to do a four corners activity.

[00:33:18] Eric Cross: And tapping into all those different modalities of learning really enhance engagement. And so one encouragement that I would have for teachers is don't be afraid or be intentional about the computer usage. If it's open and you're not using it, "Okay, close your Chromebook to 45 degrees," you know, math teacher, or "put your fist inside." Or I used to do the " turn your computers towards-me-so-I-see-the-screen." That way they, you know, can't really type on it. And so we have to be intentional about physically sometimes removing it and recentering students. So again, using tech to spark talk, not replace it. 

[00:33:50] Ana Torres: Yeah, well because it typically will enhance what you're doing versus take away. So I was one of those teachers that was actually scared of technology and at the end of it all, I became a Promethean board trainer because that interactivity with technology is what sparked our talk.

[00:34:08] Ana Torres: So I totally have seen it have been on both sides of that. Well, because Dan was so good. And yeah, although our episodes are shorter, there was so much to unpack. Right? And I see you smiling, Eric. You're like, Anna, I'm not done. I got one more. Right?. 

[00:34:24] Eric Cross: I do. I do. I do. 

[00:34:25] Ana Torres: What do you have for me? I know, because I had another one too. So, go ahead. 

[00:34:29] Eric Cross: This is one of the beautiful things I think, in Dan, is you can hear his teacher heart come out. And this turning mistakes into what if moments. So many times in the classroom students are set up where they're asked a question and there's a right or a wrong. And yes, in a certain context that's true, but there's a deeper purpose to that kind of engagement, and we miss certain opportunities when we just treat it as right and wrong is the pinnacle of all things.

[00:34:55] Eric Cross: And so turning these situations, like one of the things he said was, a student gave a wrong answer and he said, that's the right answer to a different question. 

[00:35:03] Ana Torres: I know. What a nice reframe, right? 

[00:35:05] Eric Cross: It is, and you're honoring the risk-taking that that student did. You're honoring their thinking . Even if students are wrong in their answer but you see the logic. Taking a step back and look at, "I see how you arrived there." And I'm going to tell you one thing that I do, and this is like, I don't know if this is like child psychology type of thing, but I found like this to be really, really valuable. When a student does something that really stands out like that, I'll often praise them on it the next day when they start class, and here's why. So if I praise them in the moment or at the end of class, then they've gone and maybe that energy is in them, but it's going on to the next class period. Like I've lost that. Like they're, they're going somewhere and maybe they feel good.

[00:35:47] Eric Cross: But when I do it the next day in the morning, I'll pull them aside, I actually did this yesterday, and I said, "Hey. Yesterday you were sitting next to a student and you were super helpful. Like I saw you explain things over and over. You were so patient. That meant a lot. And I was thinking about it last night. As a matter of fact, during our prep period, your teachers were talking about you and we were talking about all these amazing things."

[00:36:07] Eric Cross: Now. 

[00:36:07] Ana Torres: How powerful. 

[00:36:08] Eric Cross: By saying that in the beginning of class...

[00:36:11] Ana Torres: Right. 

[00:36:11] Eric Cross: Now, you have a student showing up as their best self, the entire class period, right? So it might require a Post-it to write down and remember for the next day. But leading the class with that student, especially if it's a student who's historically struggled.

[00:36:26] Ana Torres: Well, and what are considered mistakes are, you know, opportunities to learn something new, right? Mm-hmm. So I just love the way he reframed it instead of, you know, what we talked to you about, like that asset-based learning versus that deficit base. So I love that. So Eric, as always, it was so great to unpack this episode with you today.

[00:36:47] Eric Cross: Yeah, it was a lot of fun on it. This was another great one. So thanks for doing it. 

[00:36:50] Ana Torres: See you next time.

[00:36:55] Ana Torres: Thanks for listening to Beyond My Years from Amplify. Next time we'll be joined by Dr. Elsa Cardenas Hagan to cover some small changes that all educators can make to better serve their multilingual and English language learners. 

[00:37:11] Elsa Cárdenas Hagan: So think about it this way. Do the students have the concept and they just need a new label? Or is it that they both need the concept and the label? 

[00:37:20] Ana Torres: That's coming up in two weeks? And remember, check out our revamp website, which is filled with some free resources, especially designed to help you extend your reach. You can find those resources, transcripts, and past episodes at our website, amplify.com/beyondmyyears.

[00:37:40] Ana Torres: I'm your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolin. Until next time, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.