Beyond My Years

Embracing productive beliefs to transform your teaching, starring Mike Flynn

• Amplify Education • Season 2 • Episode 10

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To celebrate this second season of Beyond My Years, Ana is joined by Mike Flynn, nationally recognized expert in mathematics education and online learning. He explains how "disorienting dilemmas" can bolster our productive beliefs and lead to transformative change in our teaching. Mike and Ana also discuss the importance of teacher advocacy, the power of collective voice, and ways to overcome barriers to change. Our favorite Classroom Insider, Eric Cross, joins Ana to discuss how important it is to challenge our assumptions as we continue to grow and change.

Show notes:

Quotes:

"Leadership comes in a lot of different formats, but anyone interested in influencing change can orchestrate experiences to disrupt unproductive beliefs." —Mike Flynn

"Don't be afraid of your own teacher voice and exercising that. Advocacy is one of the best things you can do." —Mike Flynn

"Sometimes it gets really hard before it gets better. It just always reminds me to remember the long game." —Mike Flynn

"As a learner, you have to have humility. Otherwise you won't grow." —Eric Cross

"Change really behinds when you look at the unintended consequences of our practice." —Eric Cross



[00:00:00] Mike Flynn: If you work on disrupting those productive beliefs, you get sustainability because that's the piece that's often missing. If you can actually change their belief to realize I need to do this because this is really good for kids, that change is going to stay.

[00:00:15] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres, and welcome to Beyond My Years from Amplify. On Beyond my Years, we know teachers never stop learning, and that's why we're here to help educators extend their reach. On every episode, we share research-backed strategies and tried and true lessons from experts and experienced educators.

And I'm excited to be here again with my amazing Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher, Eric Cross. How's it going, Eric?

[00:00:46] Eric Cross: Hey, Ana. It's good to see you.

[00:00:47] Ana Torres: Always good to see you, my friend.

Now, Eric, this is our last episode of Season 2. Can you believe it?

[00:00:56] Eric Cross: Yeah. Someone said that the days are long, but the years are short. And I feel like that's how it's been. You know, it's like we get to do these great episodes and then time just flies by. Now we're at the end.

[00:01:07] Ana Torres: It did fly by quickly. Now, Eric, this may be the end of Season 2, but I still need to keep you nearby on the microphone. Okay?

[00:01:15] Eric Cross: All right.

[00:01:15] Ana Torres: Because if listeners haven't heard yet, Amplify recently launched a pair of YouTube channels packed with bite-sized, actionable tips that educators can implement in their classrooms right away.

Eric, you and I are already regulars over there, and we may even record a special bonus video breaking down our biggest takeaways from Season 2. Are you game for that?

[00:01:40] Eric Cross: Let's do it.

[00:01:41] Ana Torres: I think we're always game for things, aren't we, Eric? Yeah, we're always getting big ideas.

[00:01:45] Eric Cross: Yeah, always.

[00:01:48] Ana Torres: So listeners, go subscribe to our YouTube channels now via the link in the show notes.

On top of that, we'll be back with some new podcast episodes this spring. We'll be launching a special miniseries devoted to developing all educators' math instruction. We'll be talking about math leadership, supporting students with math anxiety, and a lot more. There may even be comics involved, Eric.

[00:02:14] Eric Cross: I like the way you're building the suspense here.

[00:02:17] Ana Torres: Speaking of math, that brings us to today's guest. Mike Flynn is a nationally recognized expert in mathematics education, professional development, and online learning.

And on today's episode, he helps us break down the research on effectively navigating institutional and instructional change. We all want to grow our personal teaching practices, as well as the practices in our communities. How can we do that effectively and efficiently?

So, Eric, you've heard all of that. What do you think educators can gain from thinking about this particular topic?

[00:02:53] Eric Cross: Man, there's a Sam Cooke quote that says "A change is gonna come." If there's one thing that's a constant, it's change.

[00:03:00] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:03:01] Eric Cross: This is one of those topics that I think hits everybody, not just educators.

So I'm really excited to hear about it, especially for educators who have positions of leadership, because whether you're talking about your students or you're talking about the people that you work with, change is hard. It's uncomfortable. We're creatures a habit, so I would love to learn more about his insights about how to handle change.

[00:03:20] Ana Torres: Like you said, Eric, change is inevitable.

Today's guest had to undergo some major shifts early in his own teaching career, and he's now got some research-backed strategies to share with all of us.

So, Eric, I'm going to bring him on now and then we're going to catch up on the other side. How does that sound?

[00:03:41] Eric Cross: Sounds great. I'm looking forward to it.

[00:03:45] Ana Torres: Today's guest is considered one of the country's leading experts in mathematics education. I don't think that's a position he would've predicted for himself back when he started out as a second grade teacher in Southampton, Massachusetts, decades ago.

But Mike Flynn became the 2008 Massachusetts Teacher of the Year. Woo woo! And he was also awarded the NEA Award for Teaching Excellence in 2009, and was the recipient of the 2010 Presidential Award for Excellence in Mathematics Teaching. Wow. What a resume.

He went on to serve as the director of Math Leadership Programs at Mount Holyoke College, and nowadays he is the CEO of Flynn Education, working with schools and districts globally to enhance math instruction.

On today's episode, he's going to really help us think about what to do when educators like yourselves are going through institutional or instructional change, and what to do if your current resources aren't working. We're going to unpack two really big pieces of advice. The first is the importance of having productive belief, and the second is identifying the real barriers to change.

Let's welcome Mike Flynn to the show.

[00:05:10] Mike Flynn: I appreciate it, and thank you for the invitation to be on the show.

[00:05:14] Ana Torres: Before we jump right in, Mike Flynn, do you feel like a seasoned educator?

[00:05:20] Mike Flynn: Yeah, that's a great question to start off with. I think my gray hair will indicate, yes, I look it and feel seasoned, but I will say this. One thing, I think, that makes for seasoned educators: just lots and lots of experiences and varied experiences. I started off teaching second grade, but now I teach preschool through high school, higher education. And so, I feel like I've seen a lot, I've done a lot, worked in lots of different classrooms and I definitely feel like I've got lots of perspective now. Seasoned seems like a good word to use to describe it.

[00:05:55] Ana Torres: You started out, you know, as a second grade teacher, where you felt you struggled a little bit and struggled with change a little bit. Would you mind setting the scene for us, as it relates to that?

[00:06:08] Mike Flynn: That's a great way to sort of launch here, because it helps make my experience probably very relatable to a lot of teachers. Regardless of whether you feel seasoned or not seasoned yet, or you're just starting out, I believe most people have what we call imposter syndrome.

And that's kind of how I felt when I first got hired. I felt like I faked it enough in the interview. Like, I can't believe they bought it. Like, I got hired, and I'm like... Man, that's really how I felt. Like, you get enough training as a pre-service teacher and you're student teaching and all of that, but I really felt ill-equipped to really do this and I made lots of mistakes.

One thing specifically in math is I was a horrible math teacher. I really was, those first few years, because I grew up with the math where you were just talked to.

[00:06:53] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:06:53] Mike Flynn: A teacher just said, "This is how you do it. Practice it a bunch of times," so you could check off the boxes. I could get decent grades. I never really loved math, never really excelled at it. But I never liked the subject, and when I had to teach it, I didn't like teaching it because the only thing I had to base it on was the way I was taught. So, I ended up teaching math the way I hated being taught, but I didn't know any better. And so, I really struggled.

Fortunately, I had a colleague across the hall from me who became my mentor, in a way. She was the first person to help me shift away from some of these tendencies I had, to just do direct instruction. But it wasn't easy, even though I knew the way I was teaching wasn't resonating with kids. It wasn't the way I liked being taught.

[00:07:37] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:07:37] Mike Flynn: And I didn't like teaching that way. I still felt that's the only way to do it. I didn't feel like I was being effective, but I also didn't feel like I needed to change because that's just how things are done.

[00:07:48] Ana Torres: Well, and you probably... you know, in our early years, you're doing the best you can. Right? We want to do the right thing by kids, but a lot of times we don't know how to, so we fall back on what we know. Right?

[00:08:00] Mike Flynn: Exactly.

[00:08:00] Ana Torres: But the fact that you mentioned that teacher across the hall, which a lot of us had great mentors to say, "Hey, let me help you through, help you navigate this." Change was hard because you didn't know what to do, and you probably didn't have the support in order to do better. Right? Don't want to put words in your mouth. Is that why change was hard?

[00:08:20] Mike Flynn: So, two reasons why change was hard. One was that we weren't set up, when I started, to have mentors or coaches or anything, so when I say, she was kind of my mentor, it was just on her own, because she saw I was struggling. She was just a good person, a good teacher. So, we didn't have the resources.

But the other part actually will get to beliefs. Even though I felt like this isn't working, like I don't like it, the kids don't like it, they're not really doing great, I didn't have enough experience to name that "Oh, I need to build my own content knowledge better. I need to learn some more effective teaching practices." In my head, I still believed this is the way math is taught because it's the only thing I've ever experienced.

[00:08:58] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:08:58] Mike Flynn: And so even if I... I remember seeing something by Marilyn Burns, a book [that] was in our teacher resource library. She was all this problem-based learning, and I could see that, but it didn't fit my schema for what math instruction looked like. So, I think part of it was my beliefs weren't aligned to the changes I needed to make.

[00:09:18] Ana Torres: Ooh. It didn't align to your beliefs. I think this is what we're going to get to and start segueing into. Getting there took you a little time as far as what needed to transform within yourself in order to make effective change.

So, we're going to go there now. What eventually happened for that transformation to happen within you, Mike?

[00:09:39] Mike Flynn: I'll give a very concrete example. One of my sticking points as a teacher was that fluency. Fact fluency, right? That's always on people's minds.

[00:09:47] Ana Torres: Oh, yes.

[00:09:48] Mike Flynn: And so the way I learned my facts was you memorize them, and then we always had speed drills and we did Around the World. Everything emphasized speed and memorization. So, of course I embraced all of that. We had contests and stopwatches and all those things. Anne Marie, my mentor, was... We'd have lunch together and things, and we would eat in our classrooms sometimes when we were busy and she'd see all the stuff I had out.

She could see where my emphasis was on speed and everything, and so she would ask questions. She would never judge, and she would never say, "You shouldn't do this." But she would share, like, a short article about moving away from speed. And she shared another article about the research around speed and time testing and math anxiety and things.

She was trying to appeal to the logical brain, like, here's what the data shows around when you overemphasize speed. I had the perfect mentor with the perfect resources coming my way, but, again, my belief was still "This is how it..." I would try. I wouldn't just say, "No, no." I wouldn't dismiss it right away.

I would try something and then I would feel like "My kids aren't getting it. I can get there faster." And so I would always give up on that.

[00:10:53] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:10:53] Mike Flynn: And the thing that changed it was actually something that happened accidentally. I also grew up in the time when people really emphasized Howard Gardner's "Multiple intelligences," like, "Yo, you're supposed to teach for the music smarts and the bodily kinesthetic smarts and ..." It since been debunked in that way.

At the time, I thought, "All right, so we've already got all the math speed stuff. What if we kick it up a notch and we make it a relay race?" So I had a paraprofessional, 'cause I always had an inclusion classroom. So I said, "What if we go down to the cafeteria when it's not being used?"

We line the kids up in two rows. She has a deck of flashcards, I have a deck of flashcards, and we pit one team versus the other. So they have to sprint up. They get a flashcard. If they get it right, they get to take it back. It's basically we have a race and we're doing fact fluency. So I'm like, "This is great."

[00:11:36] Ana Torres: You just knew it was good stuff, and you thought you were leveling up. Right?

[00:11:39] Mike Flynn: That's it. I thought this was ... I wish my principal would come around and see how great I am.

[00:11:42] Ana Torres: This is so awesome. Right?

[00:11:44] Mike Flynn: Exactly. But here's the thing. At the end, there was a girl crying. One of my students was crying, and I went over and I said, "Hey, what's going on?" She said, "I'm not good at running and I'm not good at math, so I lose twice."

[00:11:57] Ana Torres: Ooh.

[00:11:58] Mike Flynn: And it was, ugh, just a right-in-the-gut shot.

[00:12:01] Ana Torres: Wow. How powerful. And how brave of her to confess that to you.

[00:12:08] Mike Flynn: Yeah.

[00:12:08] Ana Torres: Right? And that seems to be a very impactful moment for you. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

[00:12:13] Mike Flynn: No, no.

[00:12:14] Ana Torres: Wanted to give props. Who knows, maybe she's listening to this. But you literally helped transform Mike Flynn's way of teaching.

[00:12:22] Mike Flynn: It was a significant moment, because what her bravery does to name that, especially because it's something that her teacher was assigning, to almost critique it. That took a lot for her to do that.

What that did was, even though Anne Marie was telling me that these speed drills can really wreck kids' confidence, it can build anxiety, all of that, I always had a "Yeah, but." What happened here, in this moment, is I saw laid out in front of me the effect of this. And although it was one student and I could have said, "Oh, it's just her. Everyone else loved it," I realized she was the one that was brave enough to speak up.

[00:12:57] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:12:57] Mike Flynn: Other kids are probably feeling that. And what this created, and there's actually, there's a whole adult learning theory, Transformative Learning Theory by Jack Mezirow, that talks about what just happened for me there. It was called a "disorienting dilemma," which is the first step in real change where you have an event, something happens that causes you to question your beliefs and values.

[00:13:20] Ana Torres: Ooh.

[00:13:21] Mike Flynn: And that was a really transformative moment, because I then went back to Anne Marie and said, "I get it now."

And that's the thing that comes down with any kind of change. If you're trying to make a change, but you don't actually believe in the change or the purpose of that change, you can go along with it more out of compliance, but it's not really going to change your practice because as soon as you have one moment where it doesn't work, you're going to revert right back to your older ways because that's aligned with my belief systems.

[00:13:51] Ana Torres: Can you tell us more about what you mean by the idea of "productive belief"? Because I know our listeners want to hear more about that.

[00:13:59] Mike Flynn: Yeah. So one thing that you all can think about is people are reflecting on what are your true beliefs around math education. So, a way I like to frame it is, "What are your beliefs about what makes a good math student? What do you believe makes a good math teacher? What does a good math classroom look like?"

These kinds of questions are great questions to reflect on individually. These are great questions to ask with your team or your whole staff. These are things that you can start to have conversations around to see where are people's beliefs.

A productive belief is a belief that's aligned with best practices, that positions students in the best way to learn math. We're looking at beliefs about students in a positive way, beliefs about teaching in a very active, positive way.

So, I'll give you an example. My unproductive belief was that kids need speed drills and pressure in order to learn math facts. That's a very unproductive belief.

A productive belief is that students can become more fluent with flexibility. And having flexible strategies and understanding the math more deeply actually allows them to become more fluent beyond basic math facts.

So, that little shift in my belief system put me on a path to then pursue professional learning and to grow as an educator in this realm of procedural fluency, in fact fluency, in a way that was way more beneficial for students.

Some other unproductive beliefs we hear is "Kids just need to be shown how to do things. You can't give a kid a problem without showing them how to do it" or "Kids can't talk about math with each other. They just need to have it explained to them." Right?

[00:15:39] Ana Torres: Oh gosh.

[00:15:39] Mike Flynn: All of these could be unproductive. So, a role of leaders, and the role of actually individual teachers, is to recognize when you might be holding some of these beliefs and how you might start to change.

[00:15:53] Ana Torres: Can listeners that are literacy teachers, science teachers, can this be applied across subject areas, Mike?

[00:16:00] Mike Flynn: It could be applied everywhere. And so one of the thing that's really important with this whole idea of disrupting belief systems is that for me it was just accidental. It just happened. It was like a serendipitous moment. But the thing is that leaders, even, and when I say leaders, I don't mean principals. I'm talking about anyone that has influence.

I have a very broad view of leadership. Even if you just started, you can influence others. Leadership comes in a lot of different formats. But anyone that is interested in influencing change, one thing that you can do is orchestrate experiences to disrupt unproductive beliefs.

[00:16:36] Ana Torres: Ooh.

[00:16:36] Mike Flynn: Imagine a bunch of teachers had that same unproductive belief that speed and pressure teaches fluency. I can't hope that they'll all have a student like I had, that has that, that experience.

[00:16:46] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:16:46] Mike Flynn: So, what I can do, though, in professional learning is, maybe we do some math, but we do math in base five. We change the base system, so now, it's not base ten. It's base five. It's still real math, but the facts don't work anymore for them because four plus one is not five. It's one zero, which, we don't need to get into the details. But the purpose of base five is it already puts everyone as a learner. It levels the playing field.

[00:17:11] Ana Torres: Levels it. Yep.

[00:17:11] Mike Flynn: Well, I introduce what base five is, and then I start pushing fact fluency. I give them, uh, maybe I do flashcards. We do Around the World. We do a simulation in a way where they now have the same knowledge of this number system as kids in early childhood education. Doing that for 30 seconds, one minute, is all you need for them to start to feel the tension.

And then you give them something like base five blocks, which work like base ten blocks, and everything starts to make sense. They realize having the visual and the tactile tools is a way that they can develop that understanding. And then, once they have that understanding, we could start to work on that automaticity.

[00:17:50] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:50] Mike Flynn: But if I just start going with memorization and things, they're confused.

I do that all the time. That particular activity to do with adult learners is groundbreaking because it gives everyone that disorienting dilemma where they're now saying, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I've been doing this to my students."

But if you're on your own, and you're just wondering, "Is this belief I have productive or unproductive?" you can do a couple things. Talk with colleagues that you know who are doing well as math teachers. I think of Anne Marie. I could see if my beliefs were aligned to hers and where we had misalignment. And just because you have misalignment doesn't mean one's right or one's wrong.

[00:18:29] Ana Torres: Right. Right.

[00:18:30] Mike Flynn: But it gives you the insight you need to start thinking about where change might need to happen for you.

[00:18:36] Ana Torres: So, having access to that mentor was definitely beneficial.

[00:18:40] Mike Flynn: Absolutely. Just goes to show the importance of having models in schools, where you have math coaches and math specialists, instructional specialists, but it doesn't just have to be math. It's [in] any one of these subjects, that you can have experiences where people have their beliefs disrupted.

And I guess the last piece of advice I'll say around this with belief systems is just recognize that we don't have to have fixed beliefs. And this goes for every teacher. It doesn't matter how long you're in it.

I find, when I work in schools, that anytime I encounter teachers, particularly seasoned teachers who are continually reflecting on their practice and always seeking to improve, they're the best teachers.

[00:19:17] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:19:18] Mike Flynn: 'Cause they're always evolving, paying attention to their kids, the education climate, all of those things. So that's the thing I think that will help people to keep their beliefs aligned to what we know are best practices.

[00:19:33] Ana Torres: You know, as I'm listening to you talk about the disruptive belief part, how we need to be experiencing what our kids experience, I think that's when really it hits home for us. Being open to mentorship, of course, and being okay with understanding that your belief system will evolve and change.

[00:19:50] Mike Flynn: Yeah.

[00:19:51] Ana Torres: So, thank you for sharing that. Now with that, we're going to segue to the second big piece of advice around identifying what is the barrier to actually changing.

And you, in your story, unpack that a little bit. Can you give us a broader perspective on just how can I identify those real barriers? Explain that for us.

[00:20:13] Mike Flynn: Yeah. I actually reference a book called Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard, written by Chip and Dan Heath. It's not specific to education, but that book really resonated with me because, as someone who was in these leadership positions where I'm going into schools to effect change, I would encounter a lot of people that were resistant to some of the change and would push back. And so, I really wanted to understand how change works, what gets in the way of it, and how can you make it easier for people.

They looked at it as this framework that had to do partly with your brain and partly with your environment. So, the brain part was that, two barriers to change can be either our emotional brain or our logical brain. Can be either strengths or barriers, depending on how you're aligned to that.

And then, they also talk about the environment itself. But they use a metaphor of an elephant to represent the emotional brain because it's powerful. It could be stubborn at times. It's hard to control sometimes. And then [for] the logical brain, they use a rider sitting on top of that elephant, trying to steer it.

[00:21:21] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:21] Mike Flynn: I like that because, when you have an elephant and a rider all in agreement, like, we're going to go this way, you're pretty much unstoppable.

It helps to frame what happens then when there's opposing views. Let me give a specific example. So imagine if someone had a heart attack, but they survived. They had a very emotional experience, so their elephant's motivated. "I got to make a change now." Their logical brain kicks in. That's the rider saying, "All right. Nothing but clean eating from now on. Let's drop that weight down." So now, they're heading in the same direction. That's fine.

Now, flash forward six months and now the rider's saying, "Well, we still need to go with this clean eating thing," but the elephant's saying, "But it's Girl Scout cookie season." Right? So now they're against each other. And when that happens, the emotional side can win over.

So, where this comes into the math change is that, if we think about the emotional side of the brain, there are two things that often come to play here, which is, one, is that it could be that the teacher may not feel really motivated to make this change, for whatever reason it is.

[00:22:23] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:22:23] Mike Flynn: But if I don't feel like it's worth making this change, it's really hard for someone to, even if I'm reading articles. Like, Anne Marie can be a classic example of this. When she was giving me all these articles about fluency, I wasn't motivated to make that change.

[00:22:37] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:22:37] Mike Flynn: I hadn't had any experience to fire me up to make this change. And so she was giving me things that were appealing to my logical brain.

The other thing [in] the emotional side of the brain that can be a barrier is just the feeling of being overwhelmed.

[00:22:51] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:52] Mike Flynn: And that goes along with that idea. It's like, is it worth making this change? To make that change means I'm going to have to get rid of all those flashcards. I'm going to have to figure out all these new games. I'm going to have to go to professional learning and learn all these things.

[00:23:02] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:23:02] Mike Flynn: It is so overwhelming. And so what the book Switch helped me do is realize, if I can identify the issue I have. Is it a more of emotional issue, that I'm not motivated for it, or I'm overwhelmed by it? That will help me think about what I need to, then, work through that.

It could be logical though. It could be that I don't understand how.

[00:23:24] Ana Torres: Exactly. How to do it.

[00:23:26] Mike Flynn: I want to do it, but there's so many steps. So how do I do that? Having clear direction and explanation and resources and things all can help appeal to that logical side of my brain.

So, those two things can present barriers for you and can be overcome when you recognize those. And I can talk about how we do that in a second.

But the third part of that framework is the environment. They call that the path that the elephant and the rider are on. The path can sometimes be the barrier, which is that I know how to do it, I want to do it, but we don't have any space for whiteboards in my classroom.

[00:24:01] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:24:01] Mike Flynn: Or we don't have manipulatives, or we have a 40-minute math block and I really need 75 minutes. Knowing those three things, whether it's the elephant, the rider, or the path, helps you to then figure out, how can I eliminate or move around some of these barriers?

[00:24:16] Ana Torres: Honestly, just identifying the barriers is the biggest thing, right? Taking the time and being reflective on what is causing me not to make the change.

I think as educators, we need to take the time and be self-reflective in identifying what that barrier is, whether it's the emotional brain, the logical brain... As you can see, I was tracking you. I'm following here. But this environmental barrier.

Let's follow up on this concept [of] not having the right resources. 'Cause, yes, we can have resources, but sometimes we don't have the right ones, Mike. Right. So what advice would you have for educators who may not have the most up-to-date current resources that are effective?

[00:24:57] Mike Flynn: That's a great question. And one thing that I've found, and I knew, you know this as an educator as well, that teachers are some of the most creative people I know.

[00:25:06] Ana Torres: Absolutely.

[00:25:07] Mike Flynn: We all have to work with limited budgets. We get limited classroom resources. We're always either spending out of our own pocket, which is really hard, or we're being asked to do more with lessons.

[00:25:17] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:25:17] Mike Flynn: So, teachers find the most creative hacks to work around these things and we have, now, the technology to allow us to have access to these communities of educators that are doing amazing things.

And there are also a lot of free communities out there. There's Facebook communities. You will see the most amazing tips and strategies and ways that teachers did it on a shoestring budget.

[00:25:40] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:25:41] Mike Flynn: Then, the other thing is that by getting into those spaces, you start to connect with educators that are outside your immediate colleagues. And you realize that the math world or the education world is huge, with lots of great people, all with similar problems.

And then, the other one is that I found there are a lot of small grants that are available for educators. They're specifically for teachers.

Then the last piece would be, just don't be afraid of your own teacher voice in exercising that. Advocacy is one of the best things you can do. As a new teacher, you'll sometimes feel like, I just started, I shouldn't talk to my principal, I shouldn't talk to the superintendent or the curriculum director or the school board and ask for something.

You can actually find that your voice can be really powerful in influencing district decisions, and collective voice is even stronger. If you and some colleagues feel like, "Hey, we would really like this thing," then start, as a group, [to] figure out what's your pitch and why it's important. You always got to have a good "why" behind it, and then make the pitch to the principal. Then, after you talk to the principal, see if it'd be okay if you make that pitch to the superintendent or if you make the pitch to the school board.

I've served on the school board for eight years, and I will tell you that almost every time, educators came to us and made an appeal for something, if we could support it, we would support it. And so, a lot of times teachers were able to influence the budget.

It used to surprise me, as an elected official, how seldom we would hear from people. And I really wish people would advocate more. It's really one of the best things you can do for yourself.

[00:27:16] Ana Torres: Collective voice can make such a huge impact.

You know, we talked about teacher voice here, but let's talk about and segue finally into... There are some admin that are listening to Beyond My Years. What could you say to them to help inspire school-wide change?

[00:27:32] Mike Flynn: One of the first things that's really helpful, and this is not just math-specific, is, start to gauge the beliefs in your school. You can do this just with some surveys, and not a loaded survey.

The idea is, you're just trying to gather intel on does your whole school all believe the same thing? Like, what does good math teaching look like? What does good reading teaching look like? What does good science teaching look like?

[00:27:54] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:54] Mike Flynn: And just knowing where you might have disagreement or where you have alignment can be really helpful for you to know what change needs to be made in here. And from there, once you understand where the beliefs are, you can start to think about, then, what are the needs? So, those that don't have the productive belief, what are some experiences that you could create that would allow them to do that?

So for example, if the people who say, "Kids just need to sit and listen," maybe one of the unproductive beliefs is that kids talking in math class just confuses them, or that kids don't want to talk in math class, [that] they won't do that. So, a thing that you could then do is orchestrate experiences for some of your staff to go into the classrooms of staff that are doing this really well, and recognize like, "Oh man. Kids really can do that."

If you work on disrupting those beliefs, you get sustainability. That's the piece that's often missing. People will go along 'cause, "Hey, you told me to do it, so I'm going to do this." But if you can actually change their belief to realize "I need to do this because this is really good for kids," that change is going to stay, versus just be temporary.

[00:28:58] Ana Torres: Wow, Mike. I have just been inspired and I have learned a lot.

As we wind down, we've got some quick questions we're asking of all of our guests. Are you ready?

[00:29:10] Mike Flynn: I'm ready. Let's roll.

[00:29:12] Ana Torres: Now, Mike, if you weren't an educator, what would you do for work?

[00:29:15] Mike Flynn: I'd be either a musician or a film or TV producer.

[00:29:20] Ana Torres: Wow. Creative mind.

And when you say musician, do you play any instruments?

[00:29:25] Mike Flynn: I do play guitar. Actually, before, when I was in college, I was in a band. We were touring, we actually thought we were going to make it, and so, I blew off my schooling for freshman year and my grades showed it.

But once I realized the rockstar dream's kind of hard, I really focused on becoming a good teacher. So, thankfully I did. But yeah, that was my plan originally.

[00:29:44] Ana Torres: Tell us the name of a mentor-educator and one quality that made them a great mentor. We did hear you mention someone, but I didn't know if there was another person.

[00:29:52] Mike Flynn: Yeah, Anne Marie O'Reilly. The other one I'll give is Marta Garcia. Anne Marie was my mentor as a classroom teacher. Marta was one of my mentors as a leader. She really helped me to get better at working with adult learners. I learned so much from her.

[00:30:07] Ana Torres: That is great.

Whiteboard or smartboard?

[00:30:09] Mike Flynn: Whiteboard. Old-school.

[00:30:10] Ana Torres: Color-printed copies or an in-classroom laminator?

[00:30:14] Mike Flynn: Color-printed all the way.

[00:30:15] Ana Torres: Eating in your classroom or in the teacher lounge?

[00:30:18] Mike Flynn: Classroom. With people, though. Not solo. Less gossip. Less gossip.

[00:30:22] Ana Torres: Small group or direct instruction?

[00:30:24] Mike Flynn: Small group.

[00:30:25] Ana Torres: Surprise fire drill during your best lesson, or technology completely failing during an observation?

[00:30:32] Mike Flynn: Technology failing, 'cause I learned the hard way. And ever since then, I always had a really solid plan, and technology came later. So if it goes away, I'm still good to go.

[00:30:40] Ana Torres: What's the most unusual thing you had in your classroom?

[00:30:43] Mike Flynn: Pet scorpion.

[00:30:45] Ana Torres: Oh gosh.

[00:30:45] Mike Flynn: Colonel. Named Colonel Pinchy Pants.

[00:30:50] Ana Torres: On your tough days, what reminds you of why you're passionate about education?

[00:30:56] Mike Flynn: Reflecting on the long game. Anytime I had really difficult situations, like, they always are awful in the moment, hard. But when you look at where you ended up, where you started and where you ended up with a student, with a teacher, with a school, you realize that there's always progress.

Sometimes it gets really hard before it gets better. And it just always reminds me to just remember the long game.

[00:31:19] Ana Torres: Oh, Mike, this has been a great conversation. You have been so instrumental in unpacking how our belief systems sometimes need to be challenged in order to do what is best for students.

So, thank you so much. But before I let you go, the final thing I need you to do [is], is there a district that you'd like to shout out before we go, Mike?

[00:31:39] Mike Flynn: Yes, I would love to shout out the Washington DC Public Schools. They are amazing. We've worked with them for the last few years, building courses for their teachers to build their content and pedagogical knowledge from K through 8 first, but now we're working with them to do the same thing for high school teachers. They've been a great district partner.

We've been in there to teach their students, to work with their teachers, work with their administrators, and it's just an amazing district with so many people doing wonderful work, and so many amazing students who work so hard and are just so fun to work with. So, I love the work we've been doing with DC and I love working there.

[00:32:18] Ana Torres: Thanks so much for your time, Mike. And you know what, I'm going to read the book. Thanks for being on Beyond My Years and for sharing all of your wisdom. We appreciate you.

[00:32:28] Mike Flynn: Thank you.

[00:32:31] Ana Torres: That was Mike Flynn, CEO of Flynn Education. He's a nationally recognized expert in mathematics education, professional development, and online learning.

We'll have links in the show notes to follow Mike and his work. Now, for the final time this season, let's bring back Classroom Insider, Eric Cross.

All right. Classroom Insider Eric Cross is back. So Eric, I'd love to hear more about your takeaways. What was your first one this time?

[00:33:04] Eric Cross: Yeah, I think the first one is rethink what you believe about good teaching.

We go through credential programs and we learn the current education theory at the time. What happens is that gets locked into your brain and then you go into the classroom and now you're a practitioner.

But there is a gap between what's happening in academia and modern research, and what I'm actually doing. There's not a great communication going on. And so, we have to always examine our beliefs and see if what we're doing is aligned with research and if it's actually productive. So staying flexible with that.

One way that we can do that is having a conversation with our team or our PLC. Mike talked about this. Going out and finding resources. Finding people to connect with. Having people come in and observe your classroom and see how things are actually impacting your students. And then being willing to swap out routines, not being locked into something just because you read it somewhere or you heard someone say it was good. It may not be good for your students at the time.

[00:33:52] Ana Torres: Right, right.

[00:33:52] Eric Cross: So, maybe it's the science teacher in me that always is about experimenting and trying new things and responding to data. But as a science teacher, we're always about that. And when we're reflective and we're asking questions like, "Is this actually helping my students grow? Or am I just repeating an experience that's comfortable? Or am I just teaching how I was taught?"

Because I'll tell you what, I've been guilty of that too.

[00:34:13] Ana Torres: What I really appreciated about Mike, especially as you talk about rethinking, he was very reflective and very vulnerable in admitting that. In his early career, he did what you said. We go back to how we were taught. There has to be an alignment with what the research also says.

So I really appreciated, right from the onset, his vulnerability as he was rethinking what he believed about good teaching.

So, thanks for sharing that. How about takeaway number two?

[00:34:42] Eric Cross: Yeah. The next one is really paying attention to our students and letting our students show us what's not working.

[00:34:48] Ana Torres: Ooh.

[00:34:48] Eric Cross: Change really begins when we look at the unintended consequences of our practice.

[00:34:53] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:34:54] Eric Cross: We have to be willing to challenge assumptions. That student feedback is going to help us to improve. And I love what you said about his humility, because that definitely flowed through everything that he was saying.

And as a learner, you have to have that humility. Otherwise you won't grow. If you think you know it all, you're never going to be open to getting new information. And that statement from that student, "I'm not good at running, I'm not good at math, so I lose twice."

[00:35:15] Ana Torres: Wow.

[00:35:15] Eric Cross: Right.

[00:35:16] Ana Torres: That story was so powerful, wasn't it, Eric?

[00:35:19] Eric Cross: It was. And when we listen deeply to our students' experiences and we use that feedback to reflect and change, then we're able to reduce the anxieties that they're experiencing and we can find an alternative that actually helps them. And that's okay.

It's autopsy without blame. Take my ego out of it. It's all right. If I go in with the assumption that what I'm going to do is not going to be perfect, and hey, "Give me feedback," we're good.

I'm going to be honest, I went down a rabbit hole as he was talking about disorienting dilemmas. I never heard that before.

[00:35:48] Ana Torres: Oh, me either.

[00:35:49] Eric Cross: There's this Transformative Learning Theory, that talks about disorienting dilemmas. Essentially, it's [that] people don't change just because someone tells them they need to. We change when we experience something that challenges what we used to think and then we have time to reflect on it. When we have a situation or experience that challenges our assumptions and then we can reflect on it, which is essential too, that's where we start really getting that learning happening.

And so, what are some simple ways you can do that? One, collect anonymous feedback from students. You could do a Google form, you could do whatever you need to do, and have them give reflections back on what the lesson was like or the experience was like from them. Then debrief with somebody that you trust, and just go over that and then see the little improvements that you can make, like these little small refinements.

[00:36:33] Ana Torres: And think about that experience with that student. Had that student not shared that. 'Cause that is what literally transformed Mike. I love that he shared that story and how that story aligned to that research he was talking about.

[00:36:47] Eric Cross: Yeah, that was powerful.

[00:36:48] Ana Torres: You know, letting students show you what's not working.

And so, third takeaway.

[00:36:51] Eric Cross: Yeah, the last one. So when he started talking about the book Switch, which I have right here in my hand. It's on my bookshelf behind me.

[00:36:56] Ana Torres: He's showing it up, you guys. I love when we bring tangibles to the actual podcast.

[00:37:01] Eric Cross: I love this. And I'm going to tell you, like this episode, you don't have to be an educator to glean from it. This is something that transfers to anybody who's in any position of leadership, authority, or influence. Change is everywhere.

And, just to distill it down, figure out what's really stopping you or stopping the people that you are leading or your students, what's really getting in the way. He talked about the elephant, the writer, or the path.

[00:37:25] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:37:25] Eric Cross: And the elephant would be like the heart, like I don't want to. And that's your motivation and emotions. And then head is, I don't know how. So, my knowledge and skills are lacking. Then the last one is my hands, or my environment. I don't have what I need.

And when we can identify what those are, we can know how to remedy it. But if we start with assumptions, and we don't dive in and figure out what it is, we might be treating the ailment with the wrong medicine.

[00:37:50] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:37:51] Eric Cross: You know, a teacher that wants to put a small change for small groups might be struggling to do that when they realize that their barrier is emotional. Maybe they're overwhelmed by management of the class. That's not logical, but it's a feeling. And so, instead of reading more articles, what they benefit from would be observing another teacher implementing small groups in an effective way so they can see what it looks like, starting with just maybe one small group and working independently.

So, I can get past that emotion, and then write down one teaching practice that you want to change, and then honestly assess what the barrier is for you.

[00:38:24] Ana Torres: And you used the word "honestly." I liked how you said "honestly."

[00:38:27] Eric Cross: Transparently. Reflectively. If you're leading people, having that empathy and looking at the people that you're leading and finding out, "Hey, I'm trying to implement this strategy. I'm a content specialist, I'm the department head, I'm the principal, and I'm trying to do these initiatives."

And people are going along with it out of compliance, but they're not actually changing. They're going back to what they've always done. Why is that? How do we diagnose and treat that? And so again, for the emotional, 'cause a lot of things are emotional for us.

[00:38:53] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:38:53] Eric Cross: Finding an inspiring example, starting with tiny steps. If it's logical, trainings. If it's environmental, what are the things that we can get out of the way? What are the things that we can move? What do we need to change? And then partnering with somebody else that can help with that.

And so, the book Switch, I love that book. It's applicable in so many different ways, especially in education, when you can have a lot of responsibility but not a lot of authority. Those of us who have been teaching for a while can definitely connect to that.

[00:39:22] Ana Torres: A lot of what he talked about is applicable, not just in the education arena, but in other professions as well.

Wow. Eric, it's time for us to say thank you to our listeners for joining us on this Season 2 journey of Beyond My Years from Amplify.

[00:39:39] Eric Cross: Yes, and thanks so much for listening. I hope you've learned as much as I have during the season.

[00:39:43] Ana Torres: If you've missed any of our episodes this season, you can binge on them all right now in the Beyond My Years podcast feed.

[00:39:51] Eric Cross: I have the playlist on rotation as I'm driving back and forth to work.

[00:39:55] Ana Torres: Again, we're going to be packing your feed this spring with a couple of special episodes focused on building up listeners' math instruction. Eric, are you a comics guy?

[00:40:05] Eric Cross: All right. I feel like I'm going to expose myself a little bit, but, you know, here in San Diego we have Comic-Con, the international one, and did you know that teachers get free passes for five days?

I know some people just heard that just now and they're like, "What?" Yeah, it's true. Look it up. So yes, I'm a comics guy. It's right next to my school, Comic-Con, and we have a museum here.

[00:40:21] Ana Torres: So, he is a comics guy. You're going to love one of our guests this spring.

In the meantime, remember to subscribe to Amplify's new YouTube channels for tons of bite-sized videos from education thought leaders. Eric and I have some videos up there already and more are in the works. Subscribe at amplify.com/mathclassroomadvice and amplify.com/literacyclassroomadvice. We'll also have links in the show notes.

One last thank you to you, Eric, for being my Classroom Insider this season. I couldn't have done this without you.

[00:41:02] Eric Cross: Ana, it's been an honor, and you're welcome.

[00:41:04] Ana Torres: And thank you to our listeners for joining us this season. I am your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolin, and, as always, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.