Beyond My Years

Helping students "not hate" math, starring Ian Brown

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In the second part of our special Beyond My Years two-part math series, Ana is joined by Ian Brown, second-grade teacher at Mukilteo School District in Washington and author of the comic book I Hate Math, for a coversation focused on reducing math anxiety and creating positive math experiences. Ian shares his approach to helping students who genuinely dislike math, describing how he helps them get to a place where math success feels manageable and achievable. Together, Ian and Ana explore the power of honoring students' real feelings; creating classroom environments where mistakes don't carry shame; and using storytelling, humor, and metaphors to make abstract concepts concrete. Finally, Ana is joined by Classroom Insider Eric Cross to discuss making math feel safe, ways to give students both story and stage, and how the foundational work of differentiation and meeting students where they are is critical to the work of educators.

Show notes:

Quotes: 

"You can't force someone to love something or to like something. But you can kind of talk them into not hating something." —Ian Brown

"I hate shaming children. I hate shaming anyone. I think shame is the most insidious thing in the world." —Ian Brown

"Math is just a description of the world around us. We live in the world, we can do it." —Ian Brown

"I don't attach any value to success or failure. I only attach value to hard work and kindness." —Ian Brown

"It's gonna be a grind. We're gonna be here for 180 some days. Well, let's have fun doing it." —Ian Brown

"You have to feel your feelings so you can think your thoughts." —Eric Cross

"The boring work is the real work." —Eric Cross

"You need both culture and rigor. If you have culture without rigor, then learning is hollow. If you have rigor without culture, that's what made students hate the subject." —Eric Cross


[00:00:00] Ian Brown: We always talk about math anxiety, the stress level that comes with math. My number one way that I found to diffuse everything around that is just making math harmless.

[00:00:15] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres, and welcome to Beyond My Years from Amplify.

On Beyond My Years, we know educators never stop learning, and that's why we're here to help you extend your reach. On every episode, we share research about strategies and tried-and-true lessons from experts and experienced educators. And I am here with Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher, Eric Cross.

How are you, Eric Cross?

[00:00:44] Eric Cross: Doing good, Ana. It's good to see you.

[00:00:46] Ana Torres: Same. And Eric, we're back with another episode, which will be devoted to leveling up listeners' math instruction.

So Eric, I've got a question for you. Have you ever had a student tell you they hate science?

[00:01:01] Eric Cross: I think I've heard it a couple of times in my career, and usually it goes back to an experience that they had where the way that they learned, or where, I should say, the way they were taught science wasn't necessarily the best way for science to be taught.

[00:01:14] Ana Torres: I ask you this because today we're talking with an author of a comic book called I Hate Math, and we're going to share some strategies for how educators can support students who might say they hate math. His name is Ian Brown. In addition to being an incredibly talented artist, he's a second grade teacher in Washington state.

Just a reminder. As part of this miniseries, we're pulling together some of our best math learnings from past guests like Dan Meyer, Keri Brown, and Mike Flynn. Check out the show notes for links to brand new math playlists featuring highlights from past guests on topics like shifting to student-centered math.

There's also a collection of free ebooks and information on math that motivates K to five students in particular. Again, that's all in the show notes. So let's bring Ian on, and I'll cut you afterward, Eric.

[00:02:11] Eric Cross: Sounds good.

[00:02:13] Ana Torres: Listeners, if you have ever heard a student say, "I hate math," and I was one of those students, then today's episode is for you.

Ian Brown is a second grade teacher in Mukilteo School District in Washington state. He's also the author of a beautiful comic book, ooh, and I have it in my hands, I Hate Math.

Ian, welcome to Beyond My Years.

[00:02:39] Ian Brown: Hello, Ana. It's great to be here.

[00:02:41] Ana Torres: So excited to have you. And we want to talk a little bit about this comic book for math haters.

[00:02:49] Ian Brown: Yes.

[00:02:49] Ana Torres: But before we get to that, how long have you been in education, Ian?

[00:02:53] Ian Brown: I have been teaching elementary for 10 years. This is my tenth year at my school. And then before that I taught for five years in Japan and South Korea, and so probably about 15 years total.

[00:03:06] Ana Torres: Yeah, but I was going to do the math. Right?

That's ten plus five. That's easy math for me to do, Ian.

[00:03:11] Ian Brown: That's my fault. I gave you the answer. I'm not supposed to do that.

[00:03:13] Ana Torres: With that said, do you feel like you're a seasoned educator, Ian?

[00:03:18] Ian Brown: Nope. I was thinking when I got invited onto this podcast, I thought I'm the perfect guest for this, because usually when you see teachers on a podcast or like on a TV show or interview or something, they're always this super teacher who has this incredible system and everything, and they're just like teacher of the year for whatever state or whatever country. And I'm just the most normal. I'm pretty good, but I'm no super teacher, so I'm just doing my thing. I mess up all the time, but I'm always learning more. And even when I do good, I feel like I've got to do better, whatever I'm teaching.

[00:03:58] Ana Torres: So thank you for just bringing your whole authentic self literally in the first couple of minutes on the show.

[00:04:06] Ian Brown: That's the only thing I can do.

[00:04:07] Ana Torres: So, buckle up, listeners. You're in for a really amazing ride with Ian Brown. So, today's main focus. Right? We're going to talk about ways to help students not hate math. And like you heard me say, and I think we've had conversations about this before, I was that student that hated math and I hated it because I didn't feel that I was good at it.

And your book, again, is called I Hate Math.

[00:04:34] Ian Brown: Yep. Right.

[00:04:36] Ana Torres: And it's about a math teacher's journey towards not hating math. Why do you think it's important to focus on not hating, quote, end quote, as opposed to saying loving math? Right?

[00:04:48] Ian Brown: Yeah. So, my feeling about anything in the world is you can't force someone to love something or to like something.

[00:04:57] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:04:58] Ian Brown: But you can talk them into not hating something. A good example I always use is, we bought this house a few years ago and we got this big backyard for our kids to play in, and I hate yard work. It is just torturous, but the more I do it and I'm raking the leaves and I'm mowing the yard and I'm putting this fence back together, it's kind of like, "I don't really hate this anymore."

I got the tools, I got my gloves, I got the boots, and it's kind of the same process for math. Once you give them the students the tools to do something, okay, this isn't that bad.

[00:05:37] Ana Torres: Not hating instead of loving, it's a more achievable goal that's still pretty worthy. Right?

[00:05:43] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:05:43] Ana Torres: I love the end of the book. There's a spoiler alert for those of you, because we definitely want you to read the book. The teacher says, "Don't get me wrong. I don't like math, but I don't hate it anymore." And a student says, "Good enough."

[00:05:58] Ian Brown: And that is an exact conversation I had with the student in fifth grade eight years ago, but reversed.

She said, "Mr. Brown, I don't love math, but I don't hate it anymore." And I said, "Good enough. I love it." That's what I want.

[00:06:14] Ana Torres: And is there a reason why, and again, this is your book, Ian, you chose to use like the word hate instead of dislike?

[00:06:23] Ian Brown: Yes, I did it, because kids feel like they can't say that. It's almost like a bad word. I've seen kids pick up the book and they turn to somebody, "Can you believe this? I Hate Math. Can you believe that?"

[00:06:36] Ana Torres: Right, right.

[00:06:37] Ian Brown: And to be able to just say it out loud and see a teacher say it and see a teacher like approve of that honors just what they... "You don't like it? That's fine."

You are your own independent person. I, as a teacher, I don't get to decide what you like and dislike. I can introduce ways that might help you like it, and that is my job, but I can't reach into your brain and do anything. And then kids, for them, everything is like hate. I hate this. I like that because they are still developing the gray areas of nuance and everything, and it's not fair to just say, "Oh, you can never say that."

It shames them. I don't want... My big thing is I hate shaming children. I hate shaming anyone. I think shame is like the most like insidious thing in the world. And so, I hate anything that's going to make kids feel embarrassed or shamed.

[00:07:29] Ana Torres: You honoring students and actually not changing that particular word, that says a lot about you. So, let's dive into the book.

[00:07:37] Ian Brown: Let's do that.

[00:07:38] Ana Torres: In the first chapter, Ian, of the book, it's about multiplication. And the key message seems to be that there is like this overreliance on memorizing, and that memorizing creates these negative feelings about math. What do you think about memorization and how that can be a challenge here?

[00:07:58] Ian Brown: Yeah, and so, Ana, me and you, I know we look really young, but we did grow up in a time where it was you would sit in the rows of desk and the teacher would be like, "Memorize these." Really strong memory I have of elementary school was, I was in third grade and we were doing multiplication. It was multiplying sevens and we were doing the timestables, the time thing where you're like, "Seven times three, 21."

[00:08:25] Ana Torres: The drill. The drill and kill.

[00:08:27] Ian Brown: Yeah. Drill. Yep.

[00:08:27] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:08:28] Ian Brown: Yep. And I am doing it and I'm just messing up all of them. And I go up and I give it to my teacher and she's just like so angry at me and she's like, "They're all wrong. Go back." I was really going back to shame. I was ashamed of how bad I did. And I went back to my desk and I sat down and I said, "I'm going to show her. I'm going to get every problem wrong the rest of the year, just to show her." Now, I didn't end up following through on that, but like...

[00:08:57] Ana Torres: That's how you felt at that moment though.

[00:08:59] Ian Brown: And that's how self-destructive it was. "To hurt her, I'm going to ruin my life." That's how crazy math can make you, if it's forced on you in that way.

[00:09:08] Ana Torres: How can math educators reduce their reliance on memorization, Ian?

[00:09:13] Ian Brown: I think we just have to redefine what memorization means, as they study, like how the brain actually works and what does it mean to actually memorize something. It's not like you have a list of things that are locked in a box in your mind. Every time you remember something, you are recreating that memory. You're re-remembering it. You're making new memories. And so I think of it as like, when I drive to work, I have the path to work memorized. I've memorized how to get there. Right?

[00:09:44] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:09:44] Ian Brown: But what I've really done is I've just linked different streets. And so, when I get to this street, I turn left. And when I get to this street, I go straight. When I go this way, I go right. It's the same thing for math, where you just have to know how to get there. And sometimes that road might be closed and then I have to take a detour and I have to go around. I have to take another one.

And that's the problem-solving part of math.

[00:10:06] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:10:06] Ian Brown: Know where you want to go, have the tools to get there, but if something goes wrong, if something is different, you don't panic and just sit there. You find another way around.

[00:10:17] Ana Torres: Isn't that what the GPS does? One of my colleagues, his name is Greg Trieste, talks about this as far as isn't it nice to have a GPS that always reroutes you. Doesn't say, "Oops. I don't know how you're going to get there." It's, "We're going to reroute." And it seems like that's where you're getting to, the rerouting. There's different ways to get to the answer.

[00:10:39] Ian Brown: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:40] Ana Torres: Memorization is just one aspect. It's that over-reliance that we see sometimes. Right, Ian?

[00:10:48] Ian Brown: I also want to honor people who have amazing memories. If you can memorize all that stuff, that's awesome. And maybe that is your strategy and that's really cool.

[00:10:58] Ana Torres: Now, besides memorization, do you see any other common barriers, as a classroom teacher, that you found?

[00:11:06] Ian Brown: Yeah, so, we always talk about math anxiety, the stress level that comes with math. My number one way that I found to diffuse everything around that is just making math harmless.

[00:11:19] Ana Torres: Oh, speak more about that. Making it harmless? Tell me more.

[00:11:24] Ian Brown: So, my attitude whenever... Because at the beginning of the year, kids are always complaining, "Oh, it's too hard. I can't do this."

[00:11:31] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:11:31] Ian Brown: And I teach second grade. I'm like, "Bro, you can't do eight jelly beans with seven jelly beans?" And like for, for...

[00:11:39] Ana Torres: in a very joking way.

[00:11:40] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:11:41] Ana Torres: Wow. I want to be in your classroom. I want to be a second grader again, Ian.

[00:11:45] Ian Brown: Joking, but also like talking honestly to them. "You can do it."

Yeah.

"It's not that hard if you actually sit down, and we do it together, and we look at it." And they internalize that too, where, "It's not that hard." It's hard, but we can do it. And it's just having that mindset of this is something we can do. And I'm not going to act like it's this... We build these things up into these great struggles. For math, it's like...

[00:12:13] Ana Torres: Sure.

[00:12:14] Ian Brown: "Guys, you're eight and I'm just a dude teaching you math. That's all it is. We can do it. This is not the moon landing."

[00:12:22] Ana Torres: "Just Mr. Brown. Just Mr. Brown teaching you a little math." I like how you said the example of the eight jelly beans and the seven. Just put them together. I like the word that you said, "It's harmless." And math, I'm assuming that anxiety gets reduced, the modeling aspect. You demystify it for them to reduce that anxiety.

[00:12:43] Ian Brown: Yeah, and even older grades. When I taught fifth grade, we're multiplying one half times three eighths. Right? And that's like super hard.

[00:12:51] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:12:51] Ian Brown: But I tell them, "Guys, this is less than one times one. You can do one times one. Right? Okay. Well this is even smaller. And so, you know it's going to be between zero and one." Stuff like that, where making math is just a description of the world around us. We live in the world. We can do it. And then this is connected to it, but it's really my big philosophy, I think, in teaching. It's I don't attach any value to success or failure.

[00:13:21] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:13:21] Ian Brown: If a kid does good on a test, good. And if a kid does bad on a test, that's good too. I only attach value to hard work and kindness. An example is my daughter a few months ago did really good on this math test. She's in fourth grade.

[00:13:37] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:13:37] Ian Brown: And so, she brought it home. My wife was looking at it and she's like, "Wow, this is amazing. You did so good." And then my wife said, "Aren't you proud of her for doing so good on this test?" And I said, "I'd be proud of her if she did horrible on the test. I'm just proud of her for the way she navigates through the world."

And when I have that attitude in class too, the kids, they see that and they respond to it. And I think that really takes all anxiety out of math because they don't have to please me. You have pleased me by...

[00:14:09] Ana Torres: Showing up every day. Huh?

[00:14:11] Ian Brown: Showing up here and being a good human, being nice to the people around you and having a positive attitude. And then the kids, when they have that attitude, it's like, "All right, well, so if I mess up a hundred times, he's just going to help me the hundred first time."

[00:14:24] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:14:25] Ian Brown: And there's no... Mistakes mean nothing. I mean, we want to get things right, but there's no shame. I keep coming back to shame, but there's no shame in getting something wrong.

[00:14:35] Ana Torres: Don't mistakes make us better though?

[00:14:37] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:14:37] Ana Torres: Like any challenge that's thrown our way, even with you using, again, I'm going back to this nice little analogy of the beans, with, "You can do this."

Now, you are, you seem to be a huge believer in the power of storytelling to make math engaging. And if you would've ever walked in my fourth grade classroom, we were always reading a problem, like a story.

[00:15:02] Ian Brown: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:02] Ana Torres: And I was always telling students, "Put your name in it. It's your backyard. Put your address in it."

[00:15:07] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:15:07] Ana Torres: So, we were always telling stories in that way. And your book is a series of stories about a classroom, which always results in some sort of math challenge. Right? I remember one, reading one about the concept of area. There's a story about students needing to fix a broken ceiling. So, how do you think that the role of storytelling is effective in math instruction?

[00:15:31] Ian Brown: So, people will do anything good or bad if there is a compelling story. I feel that's a real area of need in math is more storytelling and more... That's a big part of why I wrote the book is concepts that are abstract a lot of times, even if we use manipulatives and we do drawings and we really make them real world, they very rarely have a narrative to them. And so, it's hard for a lot of kids to grasp. No matter how well you build a word problem or draw it out or whatever. Right? And so what I did for the book is I went through every third grade standard for Washington state for math.

[00:16:12] Ana Torres: Oh.

[00:16:13] Ian Brown: And I wrote every one in a notebook, and under the standard I wrote, "Story ideas. How could this be a story? How could area be a story?" Not just area, but the standard. The standards are so boring. I just wrote these little ideas for stories for each one.

And the idea of the book was to narrativize, create a narrative for these abstract concepts, and one where a kid would read it and then later when they have to do it, they say, "Oh yeah, parallel." It will link a memory to that chapter in the book about parallel lines. And I've had that happen so many times in class, where I say, "Okay, we're going to talk about parallel lines." And a kid will say, "I know what parallel lines are. I read the book. He did this. He did this."

So, I think it does something that I've never seen another math book do, which is create those narratives. I'm in a unique position to be a teacher who draws comics. There's not a lot...

[00:17:11] Ana Torres: That beautiful intersection of actually writing this comic book.

[00:17:15] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:17:15] Ana Torres: And how do you feel educators out there can enhance their own storytelling? How can I replicate this in my own classroom?

[00:17:23] Ian Brown: So, what you said about using the student names and making it personal to them. That's like a great thing that that always works. Right?

One thing I've been trying to do recently is create stories for how the math actually works. So, I'll give you an example.

[00:17:38] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:17:38] Ian Brown: Recently we've been doing two-digit subtraction.

[00:17:41] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:17:42] Ian Brown: And we did the expanded form first, where you're pulling it apart. 28 minus 17 is the same as 20 and eight, minus 10 and seven. And so, they have to rewrite the numbers and then they have to do the drawing next to it. It's great. It's just a lot.

[00:17:57] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:17:58] Ian Brown: We learn it. We're practicing it. We're doing it. And then we were going to do the standard algorithm the next day. And so, I started it by showing what we had done. It's got all the little drawings and stuff.

[00:18:09] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:10] Ian Brown: And I showed a picture on the board of a highway, a really congested highway, and I said, "This is what we've been doing. We're getting there, but we got a lot of stuff on the road." Right? And then I showed them a picture of the HOV lane. It was empty. And I said, "Today we're going to work on something that I call the fast lane."

[00:18:30] Ana Torres: Ah.

[00:18:30] Ian Brown: "And it's going to get us there a lot faster." And then I said, "But there's some downsides to the fast lane too. What do you guys think they are?" And right away they were like, "Well, you could crash. If you're going too fast, you're going to make a mistake. You're going to spin out of control."

[00:18:43] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:18:44] Ian Brown: And whatever. And they followed that story. And so we had the two different ways. We worked through the problems and we talked about, "What is the benefit of the fast lane? What's the benefit of the normal lane?"

And so it's not a narrative per se, but it's like a metaphor that is a deeper one that, that they were able to hook onto and it really got them interested. And they're all the time, "I'm doing the fast lane now." Or they'll say, "Ah, I don't want to do the fast lane. I messed up that one."

So for teachers, I would just say anything like that where you can tie in not real world examples, but like a really deep metaphor that gives it like almost a physical understanding of it. Like, they understand going fast in a car.

[00:19:25] Ana Torres: Right?

[00:19:25] Ian Brown: And they understand going slow in a car, especially in Seattle.

[00:19:30] Ana Torres: That is a great example for math educators out there, anyone who's in that subject area. We always say, "Well, make it relatable. Make it real-life examples." But I think you're taking it a step further with, like you said, you showed the visual. You can create a metaphor. That's part of storytelling too.

[00:19:52] Ian Brown: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:53] Ana Torres: I like that example. So look, listeners, you're getting wisdom nuggets being dropped as we speak.

Now here's another thing I want to, as we're talking about dropping wisdom nuggets and you dropping the fact that this book was a labor of love for you. Right? Because you are not only a math teacher, but you're also a comic book, you're a comic guy. Right?

[00:20:15] Ian Brown: Yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:16] Ana Torres: And so we know that a lot went into it. I mean, the fact that you said you took the standards and just broke them apart to create this comic book. Wow. Wow, wow. But can you quickly tell us how this comic book came to be?

[00:20:29] Ian Brown: Yeah. So, I had this great professor in college named Dr. Allison Heinz, at the University of Washington Bothell, and she introduced us to this concept of using real world examples and basing your instruction on that. And that really hooked me and gave me an idea where I was like, "Okay, this could be a comic book. I don't know how to make it yet." But that got in my mind and that was 12 years ago.

[00:20:56] Ana Torres: Is drawing something you've always done?

[00:20:58] Ian Brown: Yeah, I was always the kid just sitting around when the teacher's talking and drawing. And so then, COVID hits. I wasn't a big fan of teaching online.

[00:21:09] Ana Torres: I don't think any of us were. We weren't prepared for that. I know I wasn't.

[00:21:12] Ian Brown: And so my wife is from Japan, and we were talking about what do we want to do? And I said, "Our district has this sabbatical program where you can take up to a year off work and they pay you half your salary and you have to research something education-related and then bring it back to the district and present it."

And I said, "What if I did a math comic book? And then, while I'm home working on it, I can do a comic book anywhere, so we'll spend the year in Japan." My daughter was kindergarten age at that time. "She can go to kindergarten there." And then my wife gets this year to raise our kids in Japan, which has always been her dream.

We moved there. We got an apartment out in the suburbs, and just every day I'd walk my daughter to kindergarten. We walked these beautiful rice fields, and then I come back and I'd sit at a desk and I would just draw for eight hours a day. The sabbatical was for a year. It finishes. I'm still not done with the book. I go back to work and I'm still working on the book. It probably took me about two years to finish the whole thing, and I...

[00:22:16] Ana Torres: Oh, wow.

[00:22:17] Ian Brown: Wrote it all by myself. Pencil, ink, color, lettering.

[00:22:22] Ana Torres: You did it old school.

[00:22:23] Ian Brown: Yeah, but luckily I was able to, at the end, scan it in and put the color in that way. But other than that, it was all hand drawn and everything was just a lot of work. It cost me a lot of money to take that much time off work.

[00:22:38] Ana Torres: It's really a great book. It's beautiful. And we're going to link all of that in the show notes so people can actually look at it and explore on their own.

[00:22:47] Ian Brown: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:48] Ana Torres: Now one of the things too, and we've been doing a lot of laughing and a lot of just smiling on this particular podcast, is you're a man of humor.

[00:22:57] Ian Brown: I'll take it.

[00:22:57] Ana Torres: That's why we're kindred spirits, connected today. And I'd say you also have made a case for humor being a part, an important part of the art of teaching. Right? And so one of the examples in the book to demonstrate parallel lines. You show a student and teacher tilting backwards and forwards and then standing on their heads to show like different examples of parallel lines. How do you feel humor plays a role in math instruction?

[00:23:28] Ian Brown: It's going back to the math anxiety. It's a great way to reduce math anxiety because if you are, if you are laughing or you're joking, or you're having fun, you just can't do that in a scary classroom. You have to have a certain level of being relaxed to laugh and enjoy it.

[00:23:46] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:23:46] Ian Brown: So I think that does reduce the tension of math a lot when you laugh and joke around. I'm not the funniest guy in the world. I'm not a stand-up comedian. I just think my skill is that I know what is funny. I'm good at seeing stuff that's funny.

[00:24:01] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:24:02] Ian Brown: And so a lot of the funny things in my class doesn't come from me. It's that I recognize that a student is actually saying something that's really funny and that like, "Hey, listen to this, guys. This is actually really good." Humor forces you to give up some control. Talking that about that again.

[00:24:17] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:24:18] Ian Brown: You've got to let the students have the stage, and I know it's the hardest thing to do, reel them back in. But I think if you give them opportunities for humor and to make jokes as just part of the day, a lot of the class clowning goes away.

[00:24:35] Ana Torres: Wow.

[00:24:35] Ian Brown: Because they have the outlet for it.

[00:24:37] Ana Torres: Great advice.

[00:24:38] Ian Brown: I get to be funny when it's appropriate.

[00:24:41] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:24:41] Ian Brown: And then, when kids do things that are trying to be funny, when it's not appropriate, the rest of the class is like, "Will you stop doing that?" There's like almost, it becomes a high expectation for humor. "We don't want to see the dance. We don't want to hear six, seven." You've got to have content.

[00:24:58] Ana Torres: It goes back to what you even said at the beginning of the podcast, is you want to honor students and honor the students' thinking and honor students that are in your classroom. So, you may not have to necessarily be a stand-up comic, but your students do have humor and they can bring obviously appropriate humor.

[00:25:16] Ian Brown: Yeah. And you can be the MC.

[00:25:18] Ana Torres: Yep. Yep.

[00:25:19] Ian Brown: I mean, that's the most fun part.

[00:25:20] Ana Torres: Now, as we wind down here, because you and I could probably talk until the cows come home, Ian. Any other final strategies you'd like to recommend to our educators to help their students not hate math?

[00:25:36] Ian Brown: I hate to say it, but it's just all the boring stuff, like differentiation and small groups. Kids, if they can do it, they'll do it. The times that they're bad and they hate math, all that is because a lot of times it's just too hard. It's that they're not ready for it. Giving them the tools, differentiating, making sure that they have enough attention. There's no magic recipe. It's just all the hard work we have to do about differentiating and manipulatives and all that stuff.

I wish I had something great.

[00:26:10] Ana Torres: No. Sounds like providing students what they need when they need it.

[00:26:15] Ian Brown: Yeah, and that's not a revolutionary idea. It's just a very, very hard thing to do in practice.

[00:26:21] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:26:22] Ian Brown: And it just takes a lot of work. And it takes a lot of help.

[00:26:25] Ana Torres: And it's an important reminder to all of us in this field, of the day-to-day work.

[00:26:32] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:26:32] Ana Torres: And we've got to put the work in, in order for our students to have the outcomes that we are looking for.

[00:26:38] Ian Brown: Yeah. It's a grind. And that goes along with why I try to create that classroom culture. It's going to be a grind. We're going to be here for 180 some days. Well, let's have fun doing it. If it's miserable and you're scared of me, and I'm always mad at you, I don't want to spend half my year doing that.

[00:26:55] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:26:55] Ian Brown: Let's do the hard work together in a fun way.

[00:26:58] Ana Torres: Now, Ian, it's been great having you. We're going to wind down with our wisdom nugget segment.

[00:27:04] Ian Brown: Okay.

[00:27:04] Ana Torres: If you weren't an educator, what would you do for work?

[00:27:07] Ian Brown: Man, my best friend at work, Caitlyn, we ask each other this every two weeks. What are we going to do when this teaching thing doesn't work out? And the answer's nothing. I can't do anything else, truly.

[00:27:18] Ana Torres: So this is it.

[00:27:19] Ian Brown: This is it.

[00:27:19] Ana Torres: You're going to retire after this?

[00:27:20] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:27:20] Ana Torres: Okay. What's one resource that you would recommend to educators?

[00:27:26] Ian Brown: One thing that has really helped me is watching people teach in other fields who are great teachers. For example, like during COVID, I started to do these online art classes and there was this teacher, Steve Houston, who's an oil painter. And he's just the best teacher I've ever seen in my life and he is just teaching oil painting.

And so, I think my advice is just find people who are teaching other things and see what they do.

[00:27:53] Ana Torres: That person is still teaching, and has some teaching techniques and strategies.

[00:27:57] Ian Brown: Which I've stolen a bunch.

[00:27:58] Ana Torres: Which you have. Right. Look, and that sounds great.

What's the strangest item you had or have in your classroom? Because you are still in the classroom right now.

[00:28:07] Ian Brown: Yeah. I had this screwdriver, but it has like the different attachments you can put on and off. And it was just on my desk one day with no attachment and the kid was like, "What is that?" I said, "Oh, this is a good student detector."

[00:28:21] Ana Torres: Oh.

[00:28:21] Ian Brown: And so, I went, "Beep, beep, beep, beep. No good students around." And so, then I would just walk. And so I started the whole rest of the year, I'd just be walking around. "Beep, be-be-be-be-be-be-be-beeeeeep. I found a good student."

[00:28:32] Ana Torres: That's you bringing that humor back in there. Tell us the name of a mentor-educator, and one quality that made them a great mentor.

[00:28:40] Ian Brown: All right, so I'm going to cheat a little bit on this because I have four.

[00:28:43] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:28:43] Ian Brown: My first year I started, I joined a third grade team and there were four people who had been on the team already, Kelsey, Caitlin, Laurel, Talia, and they just immediately welcomed me in, added me to the group chat, just treated me like a real teacher, which when you're a new teacher, that doesn't always happen.

[00:29:04] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:29:04] Ian Brown: And I really think that's the biggest thing for new educators is support from their colleagues. And I think people who are great teachers end up leaving the field because they don't have support. But I had these four who just treated me like an equal, and were so respectful. I probably should say thank you every day to them. I think they wouldn't put it this way, but the big lesson I got from them was, "Take the job seriously, but don't take yourself seriously."

[00:29:30] Ana Torres: So fabulous four. Huh? You have your fabulous four mentors.

On tough days, Ian, what reminds you of why you're passionate about this work?

[00:29:40] Ian Brown: I mean, just, I get to spend all day with 20 or so kids who are funny and kind and just come to school and want to learn. I have nothing to complain about. I get paid to spend time with people I really like.

[00:29:56] Ana Torres: Aw. I'm sure your kids would love to hear that. So we're at the end of it all, and I hate to use the word end. Hopefully there's a continuation of this.

[00:30:06] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:30:06] Ana Torres: And we get to chat some more in future seasons. But we give every guest a chance to shout out your home district. You want to shout out your home district, Ian?

[00:30:16] Ian Brown: Yeah. Mukilteo School District in Washington State. I do feel I get a lot of autonomy and a lot of support, so I appreciate the district and even just letting me have a year off to draw a comic book.

[00:30:29] Ana Torres: Wow. That's amazing. That says a lot about the district.

[00:30:33] Ian Brown: Yeah.

[00:30:33] Ana Torres: Says a lot about how much they value you.

Mr. Brown, thank you so much for being part of the podcast and let's do it again sometime.

[00:30:43] Ian Brown: Thank you so much. When I write the second book, we'll do it again.

[00:30:50] Ana Torres: Ian Brown is a second grade teacher and the author of the fabulous comic book I Hate Math. You could get a copy for your own bookshelf by following the link in the show notes.

Classroom Insider Eric Cross is back. Did you enjoy the conversation?

[00:31:10] Eric Cross: I did. I liked it a lot. I liked hearing from a math teacher who has used creativity to make math. Well, he used a lot of things.

[00:31:18] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:31:18] Eric Cross: And I guess we'll talk about it, but yes, I enjoyed it.

[00:31:21] Ana Torres: Ian was really, really great to talk to. I loved his perspectives on just really bringing students ideas and breaking down this whole hate word. So, what are your takeaways?

[00:31:35] Eric Cross: Well, yeah, the first one is Ian was big on making math feel safe and harmless. And let me just say that I have never liked the "Don't say hate" movement. I haven't. I'm not afraid of big feelings.

[00:31:46] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:31:46] Eric Cross: I had a good friend who says, "You have to feel your feelings so you can think your thoughts." And that's real. And so give it air time.

[00:31:52] Ana Torres: That is.

[00:31:52] Eric Cross: Let yourself feel what you feel and we can talk about it. He leans into that. So I love that. We don't need to sanitize or silence our feelings.

[00:31:59] Ana Torres: And I like what you just said, "We don't have to sanitize it," because, honestly, I did hate math. And it goes back to what you said earlier about your students saying why they may have hated science. It's the experiences that I had with math.

[00:32:12] Eric Cross: To take it a step further, his approach to math anxiety isn't to try to like make it this big motivational thing. It's actually to shrink math down and make it less scary. And so when he was talking about like the jelly beans and relating to the kids and goes, "You can do this," he is reinforcing the fact that this is manageable. And when you get kids that come into your classroom, especially in the higher grades, yes, they come in with all kinds of stories and experiences and you're having to sometimes reshape that for students or counsel them through some of these really bad experiences that they have.

Another thing he says is he doesn't attach value to their success or failure. And he told a story about his daughter.

[00:32:47] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:32:47] Eric Cross: "Be a good person. Try your best." There's research that backs that up too. When you're allowed to feel your feelings and, and process things, you can actually learn better.

[00:32:56] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:32:56] Eric Cross: As a biology teacher, you have these things, cortisol levels in your body, and that stresses you out and it doesn't really help you focus. And so, when you can create an environment where it feels safe, you're allowed to be you, it's not as scary. Learning's just easier, and that's something that translates to all topics.

[00:33:11] Ana Torres: Agreed. And that's exactly where I was headed. This whole concept can translate into any aspect of our lives, to be honest.

So, obviously in the education world, you've heard, "I hate science." I've heard, "I hate reading."

[00:33:26] Eric Cross: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:26] Ana Torres: So to allow students to feel what they feel. Right, Eric? But to also make it seem harmless, meaning, "You can do it."

[00:33:34] Eric Cross: The other thing that resonated with me was, he was giving them a story, but he was also giving them a stage.

And this really resonated with me because this is something that's big in science, with storylines.

[00:33:44] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:33:44] Eric Cross: But he gave this example where he was transitioning between standards and he used the fast lane, HOV, high speed lane.

[00:33:51] Ana Torres: Oh yes.

[00:33:51] Eric Cross: He's using these metaphors, parables that teach.

[00:33:54] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:33:54] Eric Cross: Then the students started using that same language to talk about what they were going for. And so, just find a metaphor that makes the math feel like something physical, something kids have actually lived, making it relevant. And oftentimes when students aren't engaged or they just don't get it, it's not because they're not motivated. They just don't see the purpose or the relevance.

[00:34:12] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:34:12] Eric Cross: And that sometimes can be a challenge. And in certain subjects it's easier to find than others. And he said something that I say as well, so this, we were like, same, same. He said he's the MC. He said he is not a comedian. And so he spots when students say something that's genuinely funny and then he uses the platform to amplify. I thought that was huge, sharing that spotlight. And you know what ends up happening, and I stumbled into this, is the class clowning disappears.

[00:34:37] Ana Torres: Exactly, exactly.

[00:34:38] Eric Cross: They don't need the attention because you're giving it to them. And that is, I think, the art and the science of teaching, and it's both.

[00:34:46] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:34:47] Eric Cross: The science is a pedagogy, but the art is a lot of this, the personality, the creativity, the vibe, reading the room, all of these, we say soft skills, but interpersonal skills that are really essential if you want to harness a classroom. So yeah, those were the big ones is sharing the stage with your students and then embedding things in a story to give it something, to make it crunchy, to make it meaningful, to make it something that they can connect to.

[00:35:09] Ana Torres: But in order to give them a story and a stage, and you mentioned this too, we've got to give up a little bit of control of our classroom environments to be able to do that. And that is something that I know initially in my first three years of my educational career as a teacher I struggled with.

How much control do you give up? How much humor do you allow? And boy, when I tell you once I learned that you can do both, it doesn't have to be or.

[00:35:35] Eric Cross: Mm-hmm

[00:35:36] Ana Torres: Man, my classroom environment, that classroom became a well-oiled machine, but a very joyous place to be where there was learning happening. So, thank you for sharing that, Eric.

Now do you have a third takeaway?

[00:35:51] Eric Cross: I do. It's the boring work is the real work. Oh, and I just loved, I really appreciate how honest Ian was at the end of the conversation. You asked him about a silver-bullet strategy and he basically said there isn't one.

[00:36:02] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:36:03] Eric Cross: I mean, it's differentiation. It's small groups. It's making sure that the work is at the right challenge level for them. It's manipulatives. It's not glamorous. It's day-in, day-out, instructional work. It's not going to make you a flashy conference keynote to talk about that stuff.

[00:36:16] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:36:16] Eric Cross: And reminds me of a mentor that I used to have. He was a former NFL player and he would always talk about going back to the basics.

He goes, "Even we played in the NFL and he said they would do basic stuff with us when we started training camp like we did in Pop Warner. Always going back to the fundamentals, and that's consistent from what I've read. And I know from Hattie's work, where the high effect practices, the things that really work, formative assessments, checking in, scaffolding instruction, responsive teaching, the stuff that...

[00:36:43] Ana Torres: It works.

[00:36:43] Eric Cross: Those are the things that move the needle. It works. It works, and it works for a reason. And so those are the things that really matter. And so I think the thread that ties all this together is the culture work that he is doing, like the humor, the safety, the storytelling, the losing of control.

That's what creates the conditions for the hard instructional work to actually land. So it gives it a place. So you can differentiate beautifully, but if a kid is terrified of getting the answer wrong in your classroom, it doesn't matter.

[00:37:09] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:37:09] Eric Cross: You can have the best small group in the building, but if kids are shamed when they struggle or they make mistakes, they're going to shut down.

[00:37:14] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:37:15] Eric Cross: You need both.

[00:37:16] Ana Torres: Good point, good point.

[00:37:17] Eric Cross: You need culture, but if you have the culture without rigor, then learning and the teaching's hollow. If you have rigor without culture, then that's what made Ian hate math.

[00:37:28] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:37:28] Eric Cross: And the students that I had say they hated science because they had rigor. It was hard, but there was no culture. You need both. It's the art and the science of teaching. And so, if I was to boil it down, I'd say, "It's going to be a grind. We're going to be here for 180 days. So like, let's have fun. Let's have fun, dude."

[00:37:45] Ana Torres: Let's have fun.

[00:37:46] Eric Cross: Right?

[00:37:46] Ana Torres: That's what I recall. And he just was, and I actually even liked the way you phrased this, the boring work is the real work. But one thing I will say and add to what you just said, Eric, is, if you notice, like every point he made was very student centered. It was about the students in the classroom and what he needed to do.

"How do I make it relatable? And how do I demystify it for them?" So yeah, the boring work is the real work, the scaffolding and making this math relatable. And it was more than, he even said this, more than just real life experiences. That's why he used the metaphor with the lanes. It's more than just that.

Literally every response and everything he said was student centered. It reminded me of when we had our Dan Meyer Episode 2, where it's like, "Yeah, I'm cool, but I want them to be cool too." Dan was also very focused on the students in his classroom and what they were going to get out of that environment, and also demystifying math for them.

So that's what I took away from it as well, Eric.

[00:38:47] Eric Cross: Absolutely. And I just want to add that this work, it doesn't have to be personality driven.

[00:38:52] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:38:52] Eric Cross: If you have a big personality or you're funny, or you like being on stage and you're like that, does that help? Absolutely. Because we're standing in front of human beings all day talking and drawing attention to ourselves. But not every teacher has that personality.

[00:39:06] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:39:06] Eric Cross: But these same principles can be applied in a different way for different personality types. I taught with a teacher who was a masterful teacher, and, not but, she was so zen, just calm. Whenever I was around her, I heard like birds and soft classical music.

She had that energy and we taught the same kids. We taught the same kids, but her classroom and her environment and her management, she knew how to filter these principles through her identity, and that's what made it natural. It made it organic. She was still able to give students the stage. She was still able to create a culture.

But you don't always have to be loud and boisterous. That's a type of person, but I know for some people that can make them feel like, "Well, I'm not like that, so I can't do that." My encouragement to you is to take the principles, but then interpret it through how you're wired and implement that to your classroom.

[00:39:56] Ana Torres: Yeah. Teachers can be authentically themselves and still implement this. That is a great, great way to end this conversation, Eric. It's applicable to all. We can all do this. Thanks so much, Eric.

[00:40:10] Eric Cross: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:40:13] Ana Torres: Thanks for listening to Beyond My Years from Amplify. Remember, we've collected a bundle of free resources to help you level up your math instruction. That includes a new playlist with best practices for shifting to student-centered math, 10 low-prep high-impact math activities, K-5 instructional routine cards, and much more. Find the links in the show notes or visit amplify.com/K5math. We'll soon be sharing some more information on Season 3 of Beyond My Years, so stay tuned to this podcast feed.

I'm your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolin. Until next time, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.