Creating student-centered classroom cultures, with Pedro Noguera, Ph.D.

Host Ana Torres is joined by Pedro Noguera, Ph.D., dean and distinguished professor of education at USC Rossier School of Education, one of the national's leading scholars on inequality and public policy in education. Together, they explore how to create a student-centered classroom in which every learner is encouraged to bring their full selves. Pedro then breaks down how to build authentic relationships with students, co-create classroom norms, and foster a culture in which mistakes are part of learning. He also shares powerful advice for supporting multilingual/English learners. Classroom Insider Eric Cross then joins Ana to reinforce why building relationships with students is every educator's professional responsibility.

Show notes: 

• Learn more about Pedro Noguera, Ph.D.
• Connect with Pedro Noguera.
• Take your learning further with these episodes:
  • The science behind a joyful classroom, starring Tracey Severns, Ed.D.
  • Learning alongside your multilingual learners, starring Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan, Ed.D.
• Give your multilingual/English learners the strongest writing instruction with these free ebooks.
• Follow us on Instagram.
• Subscribe to Beyond My Years.
• Connect with Ana Torres.
• Connect with Eric Cross.

Quotes:

"It's less about control; it's more about relationships. And if you build a good, positive relationship, then kids will listen." —Pedro Noguera

"The hardest thing to teach a teacher is how to build relationships with kids." —Pedro Noguera

"The real teaching is not in grading; it's in feedback." —Pedro Noguera

"As educators, we're more than just the content that we teach." —Ana Torres

"The most important teaching often happens after the first attempt." —Eric Cross

"When we give feedback early and often, it improves learning." —Eric Cross

Transcript

[00:00:00] Pedro Noguera: Remember that education is the best tool we have for creating a better society for changing lives.

[00:00:12] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres, and welcome to Season 3 of Beyond My Years from Amplify. On Beyond My Years, we know educators never stop learning, and that's why we're here with a brand-new season to help you extend your reach. On every single episode, we share research-backed strategies and tried-and-true lessons from experts and experienced educators.

And as always, I'm joined by middle school science teacher Eric Cross, who serves as our Beyond My Years Classroom Insider. What's going on, Eric Cross?

[00:00:46] Eric Cross: Hey, Ana. I'm excited not just for this next episode, but we're in a new season. We get to do it again. I'm ready.

[00:00:52] Ana Torres: Let's do it. And today, Dr. Pedro Noguera is going to drop some wisdom nuggets about the benefits that come from building positive relationships with students.

He's going to share some specific strategies that can support all educators with doing this.

[00:01:10] Eric Cross: I'm excited to listen to this episode, Ana, specifically because I know that you are excited for this episode, so I can't wait to break this down.

[00:01:18] Ana Torres: And honestly, Eric, I don't think it's a coincidence that so many of the scholars and researchers keep coming back to the importance of classroom community and building connections with students.

[00:01:30] Eric Cross: I think, yeah, I agree with you. There's a reason why the teachers are saying the same thing. It's because it's fundamental. We learn through relationships, and the stronger that relationship is, the stronger the learning is.

It's not magic, but it's not always simple, and I think by hearing from all of these different educators, we get different perspectives on how to do that, and I'm really excited to hear what Dr. Noguera has to say about it.

[00:01:50] Ana Torres: And so am I. Let's bring on Dr. Noguera, and we're going to connect afterwards, Eric. Okay?

[00:01:56] Eric Cross: Sounds great.

[00:01:59] Ana Torres: Today we are kicking off Season 3 of Beyond My Years with one of the leading figures in education. In fact, in 2023, Education Week literally ranked him first in the nation for influence and impact in the field of education.

Dr. Pedro Noguera is the dean of the Rossier School of Education and distinguished professor of education at USC. Dr. Noguera is a sociologist whose research focuses on the ways in which schools are influenced by social and economic conditions, as well as by demographic trends. He is the author, co-author, and editor of 15 books, not to mention dozens of research articles in leading academic journals.

And can you believe he is with me now? Dr. Pedro Noguera, welcome to Beyond My Years.

[00:02:59] Pedro Noguera: Thank you, Ana. It's so good to be with you, and a real pleasure to be in conversation.

[00:03:05] Ana Torres: Igualmente. And so, just a warning, we're maybe speaking Spanglish. We're going to be speaking English. We're going to do all of the things.

And so I'm going to start off, Pedro, with asking you a very tough question.

[00:03:19] Pedro Noguera: I'm ready.

[00:03:20] Ana Torres: You've been researching and working in education for over 35 years, but if you could go back in time and give yourself just one piece of advice as a newer teacher, what would that be?

[00:03:34] Pedro Noguera: My advice would be to look for the teachers around you in the school where you are who know how to connect with kids, and learn from them. Get mentored by them. Because in almost every school I've ever been to, there's at least one teacher who can do that.

And the kids will tell you who that person is, so you don't have to spend a lot of time figuring it out. Just ask the kids, "Who's the teacher you know that you learn best from, that you know really cares about you?" And they'll tell you.

[00:04:03] Ana Torres: A very important piece of advice. Find that mentor. Make sure that you network. Quite a few of guests that we've had in prior seasons have really mentioned that that is something vital and very important.

So that's one piece of advice you would've given yourself 35-plus years ago.

[00:04:21] Pedro Noguera: Well, can I give a background story to that?

[00:04:23] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:04:23] Pedro Noguera: So when I started teaching in Providence, Rhode Island, at Central High School, which was considered the worst high school in the city, I had my mentor teacher who was supposed to be observing me and giving me feedback. Most of the time he was not even around.

I was there by myself, which I didn't mind. I figured I could do this. I thought it was a little crazy that you would give a 21-year-old control over their own classroom. But I was enthusiastic, and I was competent.

[00:04:54] Ana Torres: Two very important ingredients, would you say?

[00:04:58] Pedro Noguera: Yes. And it went well.

But when I went to go teach in Oakland, at first I was substituting. And I remember once I was sent to a middle school that was a really, really hard school, and I was sent one day to be an art teacher.

I figured, "How hard can it be? I'll draw. They'll draw. We'll all draw. It'll be a wonderful day."

[00:05:18] Ana Torres: That's what you thought. That's what you thought you were going to do.

[00:05:21] Pedro Noguera: That's what I thought. And first period it worked.

[00:05:22] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:05:23] Pedro Noguera: And I was drawing, and they're drawing, and I said, "I should've been an art teacher." But second period, I notice there are way more kids in the classroom than are supposed to be on the roster.

[00:05:35] Ana Torres: Oh.

[00:05:35] Pedro Noguera: So I ask, "Why are all these kids here?" They said, "Well, the kids have heard there's a cool teacher in the art room, so they're coming." Now they start... They're talking. They're not drawing. Some are throwing crayons. This is middle school.

[00:05:48] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:05:49] Pedro Noguera: Third period comes.

[00:05:50] Ana Torres: Mm.

[00:05:50] Pedro Noguera: And they're pouring into the room. I got over 50 kids in here, and I can't tell who belongs and who doesn't, so I shut the door.

I'm starting to get a headache. Finally, it's lunch. I go into the teachers' lounge. So depressing.

[00:06:04] Ana Torres: Wow.

[00:06:05] Pedro Noguera: So depressing. The teachers are kind of beaten down. Fifth period rolls in, and there's 100 kids in there.

[00:06:12] Ana Torres: Oh, gosh.

[00:06:13] Pedro Noguera: And I just say... I call the office. I say, "Look, I have a headache. I'm done for the day. I'm going home. You don't have to pay me for today, but you need to send somebody down here because you got, now you have too many people in here."

[00:06:25] Ana Torres: Uh-huh.

[00:06:26] Pedro Noguera: And on my way out, I run into the principal. And I say, "I've been to many schools in Oakland, and this is the worst school I've ever been to."

[00:06:33] Ana Torres: Wow.

[00:06:34] Pedro Noguera: She said, "I agree." She said, "This school is terrible."

[00:06:38] Ana Torres: And even the principal agreed.

[00:06:39] Pedro Noguera: She said, "But you should know that we have some great teachers here."

[00:06:42] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:06:42] Pedro Noguera: I said, "You have some great teachers?" She said, "Yeah. Go to see Miss Brown before you leave." So I go down the hall, and there I see quiet classroom.

She's teaching math. Kids are working. Kids I'd seen earlier throwing crayons are there working.

[00:06:57] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:06:58] Pedro Noguera: Like, what you would think of as a normal classroom, totally engaged.

[00:07:01] Ana Torres: She had the stuff.

[00:07:02] Pedro Noguera: She had the stuff. So afterwards, I wait to talk to her. I said, "Tell me, what's your secret? How do you manage?" She says, "The kids know I don't play, that if they're in my classroom, they've got to work."

[00:07:13] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:07:14] Pedro Noguera: "I keep them busy, and we work, and that's our understanding." I said, "Well, you need to teach the other teachers here about what you're doing because...

[00:07:23] Ana Torres: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:07:24] Pedro Noguera: ... they don't know how to do this."

[00:07:25] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:07:26] Pedro Noguera: She said, "Well, that's the one thing I won't do."

[00:07:28] Ana Torres: Oh.

[00:07:28] Pedro Noguera: I said, "Why is that?" She said, "Because the adults here are the problem. And I've learned the only way to survive is to be in my room with the kids. I come early, I help kids, and then I leave."

And I thought to myself, how sad, that you have a teacher with this kind of knowledge and expertise in the school, and no one was learning from her.

So that's why when I say learn from teachers like that, you can learn so much, especially as a new teacher.

[00:07:57] Ana Torres: And look, you're already dropping your wisdom nuggets early on, Dr. Noguera. Pedro's dropping those nuggets here.

One of the reasons that I'm so excited that you're here is that you and I have similar experiences being children of immigrants.

But I really want you to share with our listeners a bit about your background and how you made your way to teaching.

[00:08:18] Pedro Noguera: Hmm. So, neither of my parents graduated from high school. They didn't go to college, but they believed in education. They really believed in education. And in fact, my father used to say, "You can get a free education with a library card."

And he practiced it, and he used to, they used to make us go to the libraries on our own. And that was really important for me because at a very early age, I became an independent reader.

[00:08:46] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:08:47] Pedro Noguera: I remember I had a librarian who introduced me to A Wrinkle in Time. I would have never read that book, but I liked the librarian, a Panamanian woman, and...

[00:08:56] Ana Torres: I like her, too. I like her already.

[00:08:58] Pedro Noguera: I read the book, fell in love with it. A week later, I was back ready for more. And so what I learned was an appreciation for reading, for being self-motivated, not simply being told what to do in a classroom. That really helped me throughout my own education.

Then when I went to college, I was, because I was a first-generation student, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know what I wanted to study. I knew I wanted to do something that would help people, and in my sophomore year, I took a psychology course, and part of the requirement for the course was to work with a teacher.

[00:09:36] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:09:36] Pedro Noguera: And I was assigned to work with a kindergarten teacher, and this teacher was struggling with four little boys, four little Black boys who were giving her a hard time. And she said, "Whenever you come, your job is to take those boys."

[00:09:51] Ana Torres: So that was your assignment.

[00:09:53] Pedro Noguera: That was my job. I said, "What should I do with them?"

She said, "You can do whatever you want. I just want them out of my hair for a while."

[00:09:58] Ana Torres: Oh, wow. Wow.

[00:10:00] Pedro Noguera: I said, "Okay." So the first time I come, it's clear what the issue is. The issue is that they're playful, they're restless, and the teacher doesn't know how to handle that.

[00:10:09] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:10:09] Pedro Noguera: So since she said I could do whatever I want, the next time I came, I brought a football, and I proceeded to play with these boys for a good half an hour.

My goal was twofold. I wanted to build a relationship with them, doing something they liked.

[00:10:25] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:10:26] Pedro Noguera: I also figured since they have so much energy, I need to help them get the energy out so we can channel the energy rather than trying to crush the energy.

[00:10:34] Ana Torres: Right. Right.

[00:10:35] Pedro Noguera: And once we played football for a good 20 minutes, I could sit them down. We could read together. They were so happy to have me. And I thought to myself, what happened if I wasn't coming?

[00:10:45] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:10:45] Pedro Noguera: What would have happened to those boys? Because they were already being labeled, they were already being stigmatized and turned off to education, and that got me interested.

But still, at the time, I was not seeing teaching as my career. It wasn't until much later that I got pulled back into education out of frustration with some other work I was doing. I could tell that story, too, but that's another story.

[00:11:13] Ana Torres: No, no, no, no. And again, as you're listening to Pedro, with a 35-plus-year career, there's lots of stories to tell, aren't there?

[00:11:21] Pedro Noguera: Lots of stories.

[00:11:21] Ana Torres: I want to ask you this, though, as you're sharing this story about this kindergarten teacher and these young boys. In retrospect, what was that teacher really struggling with, Pedro?

[00:11:33] Pedro Noguera: She was struggling with control.

[00:11:36] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:11:37] Pedro Noguera: She wanted to control the classroom, control the kids.

[00:11:40] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:11:41] Pedro Noguera: And what I figured out at 19 was it's less about control, it's more about relationships.

[00:11:49] Ana Torres: More about the connection.

[00:11:50] Pedro Noguera: And if you can build a good, positive relationship, then kids will listen.

[00:11:56] Ana Torres: What a blessing for those four boys that 19-year-old Pedro was there to be able to make that connection.

[00:12:04] Pedro Noguera: And what I know now, though, from having worked with teachers for many years, the hardest thing to teach a teacher is how to build relationships with kids.

[00:12:12] Ana Torres: Oof. Yes.

[00:12:14] Pedro Noguera: And we all know that if you don't have good relationships with kids, you're constantly dealing with behavior issues.

[00:12:20] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:12:21] Pedro Noguera: It came naturally to me, but it doesn't come naturally to a lot of people.

[00:12:25] Ana Torres: But it can be done.

[00:12:27] Pedro Noguera: Oh, absolutely.

[00:12:28] Ana Torres: It is something that can be done.

[00:12:30] Pedro Noguera: Absolutely.

[00:12:30] Ana Torres: And we're going to be talking a little bit more about that today.

And as you mentioned, the importance of building those relationships and a strong classroom community is something that's come up on our podcast before. Can you please make the case for why this is so important and why we need to be leveraging that as educators?

[00:12:52] Pedro Noguera: So we know that people learn through relationships. If there's trust, if there is a sense that this adult cares about me, they're going to be more open to learning from them. And we've all seen it.

We've seen a child who will work with one teacher. Same child and another teacher, it's not happening. And the difference usually is the quality of the relationship that exists. Some teachers don't even realize that it's their job to build the relationship.

[00:13:21] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:13:21] Pedro Noguera: Not the child's job. We're the adults, we're the professionals, and that's got to be part of the work. It's very similar.

You see this in healthcare. You see doctors who don't take the time to get to know their patients. They are spending more time on their laptop than they are talking to the person. You don't feel like you're getting quality healthcare. Same thing happens in a classroom.

[00:13:42] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:13:42] Pedro Noguera: Many kids are relationship dependent. They will work for the people they like and won't work for the people they don't like.

[00:13:50] Ana Torres: Well, and children are very astute as far as they know who those teachers are that value them. And as you also know, we both know, they will test our boundaries to ensure that we care about them.

When I worked in middle school, I remember children would push my buttons to certify to them, "She's good people." Right? "She's safe."

[00:14:15] Pedro Noguera: Right.

[00:14:15] Ana Torres: But I literally would take, Pedro, six weeks every class that I had to build a community of learners, but build a community of people that really respected each other, and that does take time.

[00:14:31] Pedro Noguera: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:14:32] Ana Torres: How can educators build those relationship with students? What does it really look like in a classroom to do that, Pedro?

[00:14:41] Pedro Noguera: So I love the fact that you talked about building a community. I describe it as building a community of learners that the teachers are part of.

And why that's important is it's so key for teachers to keep in mind that it's not just you and the kids that need a relationship. But the kids need a relationship with each other...

[00:14:57] Ana Torres: Yes.

so

[00:14:58] Pedro Noguera: that they feel safe with each other. We need a classroom where there's no put-downs, where there's no bullying, where kids feel safe, where they feel seen by their teacher and by their peers, and not judged.

So I always say, at the very beginning, you have to establish some norms. Not rules. But norms. And the difference is, a rule is only as good as your ability to enforce it.

[00:15:25] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:15:26] Pedro Noguera: Right?

[00:15:26] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:15:27] Pedro Noguera: A norm is shared. So a norm might be, we will all speak respectfully to each other. We will all show up on time. We will all come prepared. We will all take responsibility for a kid who is out and misses a day, and to help that child to catch up. You know?

So there's some agreements about how we will do things. And so therefore, when someone violates the agreement, you say, "Look, we all agreed to this."

[00:15:55] Ana Torres: Right. Right. Right.

[00:15:57] Pedro Noguera: Do you want to be part of this community? If you do, you need to come back to the agreements that we made.

And so it doesn't mean that you're not going to have to remind kids about the agreements, 'cause that's the way kids are, but the other kids will help.

[00:16:11] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:16:12] Pedro Noguera: Because everybody benefits from a classroom where there's a sense of order and respect. Everyone, all children benefit and prefer that to chaos.

[00:16:21] Ana Torres: And prefer, well, and like you said, it's an agreement. We actually had a guest, on our first season, from England who talked about literally drafting a mini Magna Carta at the beginning of every year.

Why would you say it's important to be student-centered, and what does that look like for newer educators that are listening to you, Pedro?

[00:16:42] Pedro Noguera: I would say the reason why it's important to be student-centered is that teachers who are ego-driven, who I think it's about them, are going to take things personally.

[00:16:52] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:16:52] Pedro Noguera: You know, kids will hurt your feelings. They'll let you know. They'll say, "I don't like your haircut," or, "Didn't you wear that shirt yesterday?" They will point these out.

[00:17:02] Ana Torres: Yes, yes.

[00:17:03] Pedro Noguera: And we want kids to definitely learn empathy, but you can't take things personally from kids.

The other thing is that when you're student-centered, you become more focused on learning. And this is really key. Too many teachers confuse teaching with talking.

[00:17:22] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:17:22] Pedro Noguera: Teaching and covering the material are not the same.

[00:17:26] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:17:27] Pedro Noguera: It's not to say there aren't times when you do direct instruction to explain a concept, to explain something, but how do you know the kids learned it? A lot of kids don't learn just 'cause you say something once.

[00:17:40] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:17:40] Pedro Noguera: You then have to say, "Okay, now try it out." And then look and see what are they doing. The most effective teachers are facilitators.

[00:17:49] Ana Torres: That's what it is.

[00:17:49] Pedro Noguera: They're not big talkers. They're facilitating learning, and they're constantly looking for the evidence that their students are learning. They're inviting their questions.

[00:18:00] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:18:00] Pedro Noguera: They're giving kids numerous opportunities to try things, to get it right so that they aim for a standard of excellence in what they're doing and not just to get it done.

If you're student-centered, you become learner-centered.

[00:18:13] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:18:14] Pedro Noguera: Think about this. So many times you go in a classroom and too much of class time is sitting and listening.

[00:18:20] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:18:21] Pedro Noguera: That's boring for a lot of kids. Class time should be work time, should be learning time, should be time doing, not just sitting, listening. And when kids get bored, they're more likely to act out.

So if you're student-centered, you're going to make it learner-centered, not teacher talk.

[00:18:40] Ana Torres: I love the idea that you mentioned, too, that we share is drafting those norms at the beginning of the year.

Are there any other ways that educators can help create that culture where it's okay to make mistakes?

[00:18:53] Pedro Noguera: I think we want to tell kids, "You don't do your best work on the first draft." I don't. When I write something, I have to then go over it again. Right?

You want to get them into the habit of saying, "Okay, that's your first draft. Now we're going to go over it." And the real teaching is not in grading. It's in feedback.

[00:19:15] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:19:15] Pedro Noguera: Helping the student to see what they did wrong, where they made mistakes, and what they need to do to improve. And modeling for them, giving them examples. This is what it looks like if you do it right.

And when you do those things, kids take more ownership of the learning, more ownership of the end product that they're trying to produce. If you can get kids who are committed to revising their work, you will see them produce better work, because they're not going to be satisfied with slop.

A lot of kids get satisfied with producing garbage because their teachers accept garbage, because we allow it.

[00:19:57] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:19:57] Pedro Noguera: They allow it. And if you could say, "I'm glad you finished, but you need to improve," and you build that in regularly, then kids take more ownership for their own learning.

[00:20:08] Ana Torres: And ownership is important. And as you mentioned, that student-centered, learner-centered community should be building on that. Like you said, less time talking, more time having the students interact and talk to each other.

I remember early on in my career, because one of the things I was really proud of was I had order. But I actually had a teammate of mine whose class didn't look like mine. It was a little bit more hustle and bustle, but students were talking and engaging in a way that I was scared to navigate through that.

So when I tell you, Dr. Noguera, when I was able to try some of those things that may have been uncomfortable for me, I saw the difference in my classroom as well.

[00:20:56] Pedro Noguera: Here's another slogan for you: The best teachers don't expect kids to learn the way they teach.

[00:21:02] Ana Torres: Ooh. Right.

[00:21:03] Pedro Noguera: The best teachers teach the way their students learn.

Think about the difference. When you teach students the way they learn, you understand that teaching is reciprocal. And you're constantly looking for cues that the kids are getting it, or not. You're not just talking louder.

If they don't get it, you're trying something, a different approach. You're asking them for feedback. You're asking them, "Do you understand?" or "Where did I lose you?" It's that exchange, that back and forth, that makes teaching powerful. If you watch a coach working with an athlete or a music teacher working with a child, that's the way they're teaching.

[00:21:44] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:21:45] Pedro Noguera: Watch me. I'm going to play these chords. Now you try it. Okay, you're getting it wrong. Let me try it again.

It's back and forth. You're breaking it down to its parts, and you're making the learning accessible. And when we do that, then the learning is much more likely to stick than if we're just talking.

[00:22:03] Ana Torres: Well, and again, that goes to the point of, yes, our titles are teachers, but we're really facilitators of learning.

[00:22:11] Pedro Noguera: That's right.

[00:22:11] Ana Torres: Right. Right.

[00:22:12] Pedro Noguera: 'Cause the individual student is the learner.

[00:22:14] Ana Torres: Correct. Correct. Now, both you and I are very passionate about supporting our multilingual learners and English language learners, and I want us to talk a little bit more about how do you think this focus on student-centered practice and a strong classroom community particularly matters for this population?

[00:22:35] Pedro Noguera: What you really want is teachers who are, again, creating a community of learners where kids are constantly reading, writing, practicing multiple forms of literacy together, getting feedback, and using their native language as the tool for acquiring the second language.

[00:22:56] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:22:56] Pedro Noguera: We call this translanguaging, and the reason why that's important is because our kids come to us with rich language, language from home, language from their family, that they use with their friends.

[00:23:07] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:23:07] Pedro Noguera: That's what we want to use because when you're learning a new language, you're always translating in your head, and you're...

[00:23:14] Ana Torres: Always.

[00:23:15] Pedro Noguera: 'Cause you're not just learning a language. You're learning a culture.

[00:23:17] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:23:18] Pedro Noguera: When you're learning that, okay, we call it something different in Spanish, but in English it's called this.

[00:23:25] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:23:25] Pedro Noguera: And this is the reason why we use different words, and you're helping your students understand the meaning behind words.

So I think that when you have a literacy-rich environment, you're inviting kids to bring with them the language from home, the ways in which we talk to each other, the recipes abuelita cooks with, the remedies that we use when someone gets sick, because we're using culture and language to help acquire a new language, and that is so important.

[00:24:00] Ana Torres: And those two things are connected. I actually had an educator, Luz, second grade dual language teacher, that mentioned, "Ana, it's more than just students acquiring a new language. It's also acquiring the culture and the traditions of the language." So thank you for bringing that up.

And so with that, like in your view, Pedro, what does it look like to have a classroom that really supports multilingual and English language learners? You mentioned that teacher that said, "Here, Pedro, 19. take these particular boys."

But what does it look like in an ML/EL environment to really bring a classroom together? As you mentioned, literacy rich. Literacy is in all of our subjects. It's not just in the language arts arena. It's in science. It's in math.

[00:24:46] Pedro Noguera: In everything.

[00:24:46] Ana Torres: What does it look like to have a classroom like that, that really authentically supports those ML/EL babies?

[00:24:54] Pedro Noguera: I think it's rich in culture. So for example, you can use dance, you can use music, you can use food, you can use so many things, but you're inviting kids. Luis Moll, who used to be a teacher at the University of Arizona, said, "Draw on the funds of knowledge that are in the family, in the community, and use that as the way to help the students acquire this second language."

Right? Because what you're trying to show the kids is that you respect what they bring with them. Because what you don't want to do is to give them the impression that somehow English is better than their native language.

[00:25:34] Ana Torres: Right. Right.

[00:25:35] Pedro Noguera: Right? That's huge. Because those kids are going to be better off if they are bilingual.

[00:25:39] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:25:40] Pedro Noguera: Think about the, how much of a advantage you have if you are able to acquire two languages or three or four, because you now see the utility and how valuable it is to use in different places, in different settings.

Well, the only way you can ensure that bilingualism comes is if you're giving kids multiple opportunities to use more than one language, and you're reinforcing the sense that this has value. There are a lot of kids, immigrant kids, who are the translator in their family.

[00:26:11] Ana Torres: That was me.

[00:26:11] Pedro Noguera: They're translating with the landlord. They're translating when we go to the store.

[00:26:15] Ana Torres: With the doctor, with the banks. I knew way too much at five and six years old than I needed to know.

[00:26:21] Pedro Noguera: Sometimes it's not appropriate, as you're saying.

[00:26:24] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:26:24] Pedro Noguera: Because a five-year-old shouldn't be translator. But sometimes the family simply doesn't have the ability, and so they're relying on the children, but we need to make sure that that doesn't lead to them looking down on their family, because they don't have the language of power, which they think is English.

Say, "No, English is useful, absolutely, but you need to retain your native language, too."

[00:26:49] Ana Torres: Yes. And Dr. Lillian Ardell speaks a lot about, and actually has a book out on the monolingual bias. If you've not heard of her, she is amazing.

And so what advice do you have for educators who don't speak the same language? 'Cause we hear this over and over. They'll tell me, "Ana, but I don't speak Spanish," or "Ana, I don't speak Hindi," or "Ana, I don't speak Arabic."

[00:27:11] Pedro Noguera: So you can ask the kids. Say, "Look, in English, we call it one thing. What language do you use in your country for this?"

[00:27:18] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:27:19] Pedro Noguera: And so that you're inviting in the kids to bring in their language into the classroom.

That's when I talk about creating a community of learners, the teacher's learning, too, from the students.

[00:27:32] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:27:33] Pedro Noguera: And asking the students questions, and helping the students feel confident about what they know. We don't teach children with empty heads.

[00:27:41] Ana Torres: They're not clean slates.

[00:27:42] Pedro Noguera: The kids come to us with knowledge and experience that they have acquired outside, and that will help them to acquire new knowledge if you acknowledge that they have something there already.

[00:27:55] Ana Torres: Something that you said that I really appreciated is, invite the students to share their culture, their language, and see yourself as a learner as well.

[00:28:06] Pedro Noguera: That's right.

[00:28:06] Ana Torres: The teacher is also part of that learner community that you mentioned earlier.

I'm going to shift a little bit because you're based in California, where a lot of work right now is being done around adopting an English language arts curriculum. Right?

[00:28:25] Pedro Noguera: Yeah.

[00:28:25] Ana Torres: How is this adoption an opportunity to serve students and educators specifically in California, Dr. Noguera?

[00:28:33] Pedro Noguera: We think it's an advantage for kids to have a strong foundation in their language and culture. And the research shows this to be true. People who are bilingual or multilingual, they are able to use parts of their brain that monolingual speakers don't have.

[00:28:48] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:28:48] Pedro Noguera: So the good thing that we're seeing in California is teachers are being encouraged to use other resources to enhance their curriculum, to use books from different cultures that will get their kids engaged and get them interested. Because we know that when kids see themselves in the curriculum...

[00:29:08] Ana Torres: Yes ...

[00:29:08] Pedro Noguera: They're more likely to connect with the material. I remember Jaime Escalante. People may have heard about the famous Jaime Escalante, who taught at Garfield High School and got his kids to perform in calculus, kids that his colleagues thought could only do remedial math.

[00:29:24] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:29:24] Pedro Noguera: And one of the things he would tell his kids, he said, "You are the descendants of people who built pyramids. Math is part of your culture. It's part of who you are." Right? And he would even take them and show them examples of the Aztec pyramids and remind them that this is part of their heritage.

And I think that when you, again, build a sense of self in children so that they have a sense of pride and dignity, then those kids are not only going to do better academically. They could be doing better throughout life, because they're going to walk with their heads held high. They're going to be not ashamed of themselves, but proud of themselves, and more interested in learning about the world around them.

[00:30:08] Ana Torres: Yeah. They're going to be good citizens. And so now that you mention that, I love that movie. I hope folks watch it again. I've watched it, like, 10 times already.

[00:30:16] Pedro Noguera: And the beautiful thing is it's a true story. You can go to Garfield High School, and there's a big mural up of him. I met one of his former students. She's the only Latina engineer at Boeing in Southern California.

And she and I were judges for the robotics competition, and we were talking. She said, "Everything you hear about Escalante is true. He pushed us. He was the one who told us we had to develop ganas."

[00:30:40] Ana Torres: Ganas.

[00:30:41] Pedro Noguera: The desire to learn. Effort Work. It was no shortcuts. Those kids had to work sunwards. They had to come in on the, stay late.

She said, "He used to come to my soccer games." I said, "He would come to your games?" She said, "Yeah, but not to cheer me on. He would say, 'You stink at soccer. Go back to math.'"

[00:30:58] Ana Torres: Go back to math.

[00:30:59] Pedro Noguera: She said, "And because of that I'm an engineer now."

So if one teacher can have that kind of power and influence, what happens when there are more teachers who are working with a sense of belief and confidence in their students?

[00:31:14] Ana Torres: Because it came from the belief in those students, and as you mentioned, these students were not the typical students that would be in programs like this, so it just...

[00:31:23] Pedro Noguera: These were poor kids from East LA.

[00:31:26] Ana Torres: Yep. It could be replicated. And so it's really hard for me to wind this down because I could literally talk to you forever and ever, but now we're going to come to the last little segment here, which is our wisdom nugget segment.

[00:31:41] Pedro Noguera: Okay, I'm ready.

[00:31:42] Ana Torres: If you weren't an educator, Pedro, what would you do for work?

[00:31:46] Pedro Noguera: I don't know. The things I like to do? I like gardening.

[00:31:49] Ana Torres: Okay, gardener.

[00:31:50] Pedro Noguera: I like cooking. I could see myself running a restaurant, although I admit, that's a high level of skill. Yeah. I would have to really work at it.

[00:31:58] Ana Torres: Gardener or chef, okay.

What's one resource that you would really recommend to educators? Or even something that you've written? It's okay to actually...

[00:32:10] Pedro Noguera: Well, I have a book, a new book coming out called Teaching Children Impacted by Poverty.

[00:32:14] Ana Torres: Thank you.

[00:32:14] Pedro Noguera: And it's all about how to ensure that our expectations stay high even as we acknowledge and recognize that kids have other needs that are impacting learning.

[00:32:26] Ana Torres: Teaching Children Impacted by Poverty.

[00:32:28] Pedro Noguera: Yeah.

[00:32:29] Ana Torres: I would like an autographed copy, please. Okay?

What is your favorite book or whether it be a, well, you mentioned a movie already, or a TV show about teaching?

[00:32:38] Pedro Noguera: Well, I mentioned Stand and Deliver.

[00:32:40] Ana Torres: Stand and Deliver.

[00:32:41] Pedro Noguera: But I think it's still my all-time favorite because, well, first of all, 'cause it's a true story. I also love Edward James Olmos, the actor...

[00:32:49] Ana Torres: Yes, he's great.

[00:32:49] Pedro Noguera: Who plays Escalante in the movie. What I like about it, a lot of education movies depict the teacher as a savior, who's often from a different background, comes in and saves the kids.

And Escalante, he saw himself as one of those kids. He, even though he was Bolivian, most of those kids were Mexican American, he identified with them at a very human level, which is what makes it so powerful.

[00:33:15] Ana Torres: Tell us the name of a mentor educator and a quality that made them great.

[00:33:19] Pedro Noguera: So I have had many mentors over the years. I had a mentor when I was in college who was a guy named Martel. He's the one who encouraged me to get a PhD.

I had a good friend, Tamisa Wagner. We both taught at an alternative school together, and what I really admired about her, a lot of these were kids who were older. Many of them had been kicked out of traditional schools 'cause of behavior or non-attendance. And her classroom was like an oasis.

[00:33:48] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:33:49] Pedro Noguera: Even the hardest kids would come, and they would just enjoy the peace in her room. And I learned a lot from her. It's not about raising your voice. It is about creating an environment where kids can be themselves, but also relax and be calm and at peace, and that's an important part, especially for kids who don't have that in their lives.

[00:34:11] Ana Torres: Agreed. And on those tough days, what reminds you of why you're passionate about education?

[00:34:20] Pedro Noguera: I think the main thing is to remember that education's the best tool we have for creating a better society for changing lives.

I remember early on I was teaching also in Providence, middle school teacher, and I loved what I was doing, but I had one kid who was really giving me a hard time.

And one day I said to another teacher, "If I didn't have that student, my class would be so good." She said, "That kid, his mother's boyfriend beats him up all the time."

[00:34:52] Ana Torres: Ah.

[00:34:53] Pedro Noguera: And it just totally changed the way I looked at that student. Instead of seeing him as a pain in the butt...

[00:34:58] Ana Torres: A problem ...

[00:34:58] Pedro Noguera: I'm going to make him my assistant in the classroom.

And he didn't know why I was showing so much interest in him, but just in the way... I changed the way I treated him and looked at him changed the way he behaved himself in the room. And so I often cite that as, that we have a lot of power as teachers.

[00:35:16] Ana Torres: Yes, we do.

[00:35:17] Pedro Noguera: That a lot of times teachers don't know, don't see, don't appreciate.

[00:35:21] Ana Torres: And the last thing that I would like for you to be able to do is shout out a school or a district that's close to your heart.

[00:35:29] Pedro Noguera: Well, there's a school right here in Los Angeles that I really love. It's called Social Justice Humanitas.

[00:35:34] Ana Torres: Humanitas.

[00:35:35] Pedro Noguera: What I love about it is it's the culture. It's creative. You know? This strong sense of community throughout the school. Kids take care of each other. The staff takes care of each other.

At a school in a very high-poverty area, they get great outcomes for kids, and so much of it is attributed to that culture that they create.

[00:35:57] Ana Torres: Social Justice Humanitas.

[00:35:59] Pedro Noguera: Yes.

[00:36:00] Ana Torres: Shout out to you.

Well, Pedro, our time together has come to a close. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the Beyond My Years podcast. We appreciate you.

[00:36:12] Pedro Noguera: Ana, thank you for having me. It's been great to be in conversation with you.

[00:36:17] Ana Torres: Igualmente.

That was Dr. Pedro Noguera. He serves as the Emery Stoops and Joyce King Stoops Dean of the Rossier School of Education and a distinguished professor of education at the University of Southern California.

Learn more about Dr. Noguera's work by checking out some links in the show notes. We'll also have some links to other episodes and resources for building a positive classroom culture and supporting multilingual and English language learners.

Now, let's welcome back our Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher, Eric Cross.

Classroom Insider Eric Cross is back with us. What was your overall reaction to the conversation I had with Dr. Noguera, Eric?

[00:37:08] Eric Cross: Like so many of the other educators that we've spoken with, I love the fact that he's a researcher...

[00:37:12] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:37:12] Eric Cross: But also was a practitioner. So he knows what he's talking about, but he also has the data that backs it up. And again, for those of us who've been teaching or listening to priv- previous episodes, it just validates the wisdom that we hear over and over and over from these amazing guests, and Dr. Noguera delivered each time.

[00:37:28] Ana Torres: And again, we've heard some of our previous guests really speak to what he was speaking about as it relates to building relationships. But I'd love to hear his perspective on this, as it sounds like you did as well. So we're going to kick off with your first takeaway.

[00:37:45] Eric Cross: Well, the first takeaway that I have is something that's just personal to me as an educator, and it's really the power of mentors.

And he said to learn from teachers who already know how to reach students, which isn't always the teacher that you're assigned to when you're doing your teaching program.

[00:37:59] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:37:59] Eric Cross: This is something that can apply to all educators, but especially new educators, finding those teachers that make students cared for.

And he said, "If you don't know who they are, just ask the students, 'cause they'll tell you."

[00:38:10] Ana Torres: Yes. I love that.

[00:38:12] Eric Cross: That really resonated. And it doesn't require you copying them. And this is really important because if you don't go in looking through the right mindset, you're going to think, "Well, that personality isn't my personality," and that's not the point.

[00:38:23] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:38:23] Eric Cross: Instead, you want to look at their practices. Some examples would be... How does the teacher start their class? What's the routine? How do they communicate expectations? What happens when students get disengaged? How does the teacher respond? How do they redirect without hurting the relationship? And then, how are the students staying occupied intellectually?

[00:38:40] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:38:41] Eric Cross: These are things to look for, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert, whether you're super into pop culture, whether you're... None of that matters 'cause these principles anybody can apply and anybody can observe these things and take them on themselves.

[00:38:52] Ana Torres: And it spoke to me in a way of, when he mentioned, "Learn from teachers who already know how to reach students," that I didn't necessarily do that my first year.

But now that I'm thinking back, there was this one teacher that students just raved about, that I wish I would've taken their advice and said, "Hey, you know what, Ms. Torres, here's so and so. Here's who to watch."

Learn from teachers who already know how to reach students. And although it came naturally to Dr. Noguera, I loved how he had specific strategies in mind for those that it might not come naturally to. So thank you for sharing that, Eric.

[00:39:28] Eric Cross: This actually rolls into why I, even the word "naturally"... Oftentimes we say "naturally" and this is my own, I don't know what you would call it, pet peeve.

But this is just something that sticks with me because I think sometimes we call things "naturally" or "talent" that are just, it becomes organic to us. But we learned it at some point and we practiced it, so it looks natural and feels natural, but I want to also honor the work that it takes.

And that rolls into the next takeaway that I have is recognizing that relationships are part of instruction. It's not a reward that students earn. And he argues that as educators, it's our jobs, not the kids' jobs, to carry the professional responsibility of initiating and maintaining those relationships.

And when the relationships fail, it's also our job to model how to repair it.

[00:40:15] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:40:15] Eric Cross: Even when the student is the one responsible for causing the damage and the harm. I mean, that's the thing that we often forget. "Well, it's their fault. They're going to have to come and apologize." But they may not have the emotional skill sets or the maturity to know how to do that, so we're also modeling and teaching that aspect of things.

So when a student looks unmotivated or they're disruptive in one class and then they participate in another class, which I see as a middle school teacher, it's often because the students have greater trust and safety and connections there in that other class.

[00:40:45] Ana Torres: And Dr. Noguera spoke to that, for sure, yes. Building that trust is very, very critical.

[00:40:51] Eric Cross: Just a few ways that you can do this as an educator. Simple thing: greet and acknowledge students at the door consistently.

[00:40:56] Ana Torres: Consistently. I think that matters, that standing in front of the door and greeting students every day really, really... It was very impactful for me and very impactful for the students. I'm so glad that you said that first.

[00:41:11] Eric Cross: You're like the Walmart greeter, when you walk in. That's you. And that's the job at the beginning of the day.

Next is learn about their interests and their strengths and their families and communities. Learning about those things and then bringing it up later.

I have students that are into ballet and acting and musicians, and I'll ask them later, "Hey, did you have any concerts this weekend?" And they get surprised. "How did you know?" And I was like, "Well, you told me like three days ago." And I remembered, and that was like a little deposit.

When their behavior changes, notice that. Talk to them about that. And communicate that you believe in a student while you're addressing the behavior. And so when a student's misbehaving or a student's acting out or they're not productive and you're correcting behavior, also instill in the fact of how you see them.

"Hey, I know you're capable of this. I know what the best version of you looks like. This is where I see you, and this, what's happening now is an anomaly." As opposed to, "This behavior represents the totality of who you are and how I see you." And we need to be clear about that.

We sometimes think the students know how we feel, but if we don't communicate it actively, we tell ourselves stories that don't always align with what the truth is. And so kids do it too. Adults do it. We do it. Everyone does it.

[00:42:17] Ana Torres: We all do it. And I think him giving the example of when he worked with this kindergarten teacher and with the three young African American boys that were perceived as disruptive and how he just took the time.

And the football, that was a great way to start. But him building relationships and showing the teacher, "This is how you want to build relationships with these boys so they're not perceived as disruptive," I loved his example and him working with that teacher related to that.

And now, as we're closing out, what is your last takeaway?

[00:42:54] Eric Cross: This last takeaway is something that I've known for a long time as an educator, but I've also, often struggled with, up until recently, where I've started finding ways to do a better job at this. And this is realizing that the most important teaching often happens after the first attempt.

And so, Noguera, he was emphasizing that students rarely produce their best work on the first draft.

[00:43:13] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:43:13] Eric Cross: And so when classrooms treat assignments as like a one-time performance, like huge summit of huge project, students might learn how to complete the work, but they don't know how to improve it.

And we know that when we give feedback early and often, it improves learning. We know this. There's so much data on this in ed research. The challenge is, how do I do that with so many students? And so being intentional about that.

You might not be able to do it with every assignment, but what about making an assignment a feedback and revision cycle? It's not about the grade. You're just doing feedback and revision. You might not even be giving them a grade, but you're consistently giving them that feedback, and that's the learning task.

If you can pick a few times to do that strategically, giving them feedback often and quickly, it's amazing what I've found with my students when I do that. They become hungry for feedback.

[00:43:56] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:43:56] Eric Cross: Kids who have parents at home that support them, this is exactly what the parents are doing. They're giving their kids feedback, and those kids are growing.

And so the gap between me teaching and them doing is shortened, but their growth as a learner and their understanding is growing faster. The only reason why it's not a comfortable muscle is it's because it's one that I don't work out as often as I want to.

And so this year, I'm committed to doing it even more and just doing these feedback cycles for students and picking one thing that's manageable for them, and then giving it back as early, as often as I can.

[00:44:28] Ana Torres: And you saying that as a seasoned educator, saying, "Hey, I want to try this and do this more often," reflective practice as always, my Classroom Insider, and I would love to check back with you on further episodes to see how that is going.

As always, Eric Cross, great to chat with you. We'll chat again.

[00:44:49] Eric Cross: Thanks, Ana. That was a really fun listen and thanks, Dr. Noguera, for being a part of the podcast.

[00:44:56] Ana Torres: Thanks for listening to Beyond My Years from Amplify. We are all about supporting educators, and we've got more resources and episodes to help you build a positive classroom culture linked in the show notes.

Next up on Beyond My Years, building conceptual understanding in math class. I'll be joined by Dr. Kelly Serpa.

[00:45:16] Kelly Serpa: The retention isn't there when we're not teaching them these concepts in a meaningful way. Start to think about "What are these good questions I can ask these students?" as opposed to "What can I tell them?"

[00:45:27] Ana Torres: That's next time.

I'm your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolin. Until next time, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.