Developing deeper math thinkers, with Kelly Serpa, Ed.D.

Host Ana Torres is joined by Kelly Serpa, Ed.D., STEM product specialist at Amplify and passionate advocate for inclusive math instruction. Together, they explore what it takes to develop students' conceptual understanding in math and why an asset-based approach makes all the difference. Kelly shares the "aha moment" that transformed her teaching practice and breaks down practical strategies for developing deeper math thinkers—from hooking every student in the first five minutes with routines like Notice and Wonder to building fluency in an asset-based way, without the pressure of a timer. Classroom Insider and middle school science teacher Eric Cross joins Ana to share why these strategies for developing deeper thinkers are just as powerful in other content areas—including in his own science classroom—as they are in math.

Show notes:

• Connect with Kelly Serpa on LinkedIn.
• Explore Amplify's Advice for the Math Classroom on YouTube.
• Check out Amplify's Fluency Practice. 
• Watch Student-Centered Math Practices on YouTube.
• Listen to the Beyond My Years' math playlist. 
• Learn more about math that motivates your K–5 students.
• Follow us on Instagram.
• Subscribe to Beyond My Years.
• Connect with Ana Torres.
• Connect with Eric Cross. 

Quotes:

"Engagement in the first five minutes of your math class is the most important thing." —Kelly Serpa

"Every single kid needs fluency practice every single day." —Kelly Serpa

"Build conceptual understanding first. Don't look at those lessons as fluffy, optional, or unnecessary." —Kelly Serpa

"Kids know stuff. They don't come to us as an empty slate." —Ana Torres

"Going from telling to questioning, that's really the engine of problem-based learning." —Eric Cross

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kelly Serpa: The retention isn't there when we're not teaching them these concepts in a meaningful way. I started to think about what are these good questions I can ask these students as opposed to what can I tell them?

[00:00:14] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres, and welcome to Beyond My Years from Amplify. On Beyond My Years, we know educators never stop learning, and that's why we're here to help you extend your reach. Each episode, we share research-backed strategies and tried-and-true lessons from experts and experienced educators, and I am here with my Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher Eric Cross.

How's it going, Eric?

[00:00:40] Eric Cross: It's going well, Ana. It's good to see you.

[00:00:42] Ana Torres: Same. Good to see you.

Eric, today we're talking about developing students' conceptual understanding, why that's so important, and how to actually do it. I'm so excited about this topic.

Why do you think this topic is important, Eric?

[00:00:59] Eric Cross: Well, as a teacher, it's the difference between a student memorizing facts short-term versus actually really understanding and it sticking.

And this is something that transfers to all content areas, but there are times when I'll teach something and then see the students again later...

[00:01:12] Ana Torres: Yes ...

[00:01:12] Eric Cross: And then they'll bring up things like, "We didn't cover that." And I'm like, "Yes, we did. We totally talked about this." And we want to get into the how, but the conceptual understanding is the why.

[00:01:23] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:01:23] Eric Cross: And it's really important if we want true deeper learning and things. So it's a critical topic for every content area.

[00:01:29] Ana Torres: To help unpack this topic today, Eric, I'm going to be joined by Dr. Kelly Serpa.

Dr. Serpa served as a classroom teacher. She's now a STEM product specialist at Amplify. She's one of my colleagues, and she partners with school districts across the country.

Let's bring on Dr. Serpa, and I'll catch you on the other side. Okay?

[00:01:50] Eric Cross: Talk to you soon.

[00:01:55] Ana Torres: So today, we are so lucky to be joined by an educator you've probably seen sharing helpful tips and strategies all over the math classroom advice YouTube channel.

[00:02:08] Kelly Serpa: Okay. Be honest. Growing up, how many of you survived a math class simply by mimicking your teacher?

[00:02:16] Laura French: Kelly, what's a common misconception people have about problem-based learning?

[00:02:20] Kelly Serpa: Ugh, that it leads to the chaotic classroom.

Research also shows that it really helps with a student's math identity.

[00:02:26] Ana Torres: Dr. Kelly Serpa has served as a classroom teacher, professional learning specialist, and national and regional speaker, and she is dedicated to helping educators better understand how students think about math.

And today, she's going to help us with something that's often easier said than done: developing students' conceptual understanding in math. So without further ado, I want to welcome my esteemed colleague and friend, Dr. Serpa, to Beyond My Years.

[00:03:01] Kelly Serpa: Oh, Ana, thank you so much. Thank you for having me, but you know what, friend?

It's about time. It's about time that you and I sat down and had this conversation, so I'm really excited to be here.

[00:03:13] Ana Torres: So let's start off with the hardest question that I ask every single guest. How many years have you been an educator?

[00:03:19] Kelly Serpa: I have been in education for 20 years now.

[00:03:22] Ana Torres: Do you feel that you are a seasoned educator at this point?

[00:03:28] Kelly Serpa: Ana, I am spicy, but I am not seasoned. I still wouldn't consider...

[00:03:34] Ana Torres: And when you say spicy, not seasoned, friend, what do you mean by that?

[00:03:38] Kelly Serpa: Well, okay, especially while I was earning my doctorate, that's when it really hit me that, yep, spicy, not seasoned. Whenever you earn your doctorate in a particular topic, they consider you the expert in that topic.

[00:03:51] Ana Torres: Yes. Right.

[00:03:51] Kelly Serpa: So you're supposed to know everything about that topic. Ana, my dissertation is rooted in culture. I feel like nobody can be a cultural expert, because culture's changing so quickly. So I would say I'm spicy. I know a little bit about culture. I know a little bit about education, but not seasoned.

[00:04:11] Ana Torres: I do see you as a seasoned educator because of even the topic of your doctorate, but we know you're an educator. You know a lot about math. But let's go back.

If you could go back, Dr. Serpa, and give yourself one piece of advice as a newer teacher, what would that be?

[00:04:31] Kelly Serpa: The advice would be to treat myself with the same love and patience and respect that I treat my students.

I expected so much of myself right away in education. I should know everything. I should be able to do everything, and that's not how education works. It's a practice. Teaching is a practice. So number one advice would be show yourself the love that you show your students.

[00:04:54] Ana Torres: I wish I would've given myself more grace. Right?

[00:04:57] Kelly Serpa: Yeah. No, there's a reason they call it a practice. You try to get better and better every time. When you're a baby teacher, there's so many things you're still learning. When you're a spicy educator, there's still so many things you're learning. So yeah, that's important to show yourself that grace.

[00:05:10] Ana Torres: Let's rewind a bit because I feel like we zoomed by this.

You mentioned your dissertation and your passion for your dissertation. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and how that has helped you become a person that is able to give newer teachers some strategies as it relates to math and students feeling good about being math students?

[00:05:32] Kelly Serpa: Yeah.

[00:05:33] Ana Torres: Tell us about your dissertation, Kelly.

[00:05:35] Kelly Serpa: In a nutshell, when people would ask about my dissertation, I would tell them that it's all focused on the fact that kids know stuff That's it. Kids know stuff.

They come into your math classroom with so many beautiful gifts, so much beauty in their cultural book bags and what they know about math. It's our job as educators to pull that stuff out of them.

[00:05:55] Ana Torres: And I like that. Kids know stuff. They don't come to us as an empty slate. Right? Regardless of discipline, and I know we're going to talk more math, but kids know stuff. How did you get to even really evolving and thinking of it that way?

[00:06:13] Kelly Serpa: Well, I think especially in the math classroom, we have that deficit mindset of, "I must pour everything into these students. If I don't pour it into them, they will never understand it." And we know with reading, and Ana, that's your lane. I'm not going to get into reading. Right?

[00:06:29] Ana Torres: That's okay. Look, but remember, it's all of our lanes. Reading is all of our lanes. Remember that.

[00:06:34] Kelly Serpa: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

[00:06:35] Ana Torres: But specifically math, you wanted to share something, Kelly.

[00:06:39] Kelly Serpa: Yeah. So I know with reading, if we don't explicitly teach a student how to read, they ain't ever going to get there.

[00:06:43] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:06:43] Kelly Serpa: But math is found in nature. Math is found all around us. We're born with digits. We're born disposed to do that math. We're born seeking out pattern-making.

So all kids have some mathematical background and some mathematical identity, good, bad, or ugly, when they come into your classroom.

[00:07:03] Ana Torres: Oh, that resonates so much with me, Kelly. And again, listeners, you're in for a treat. So on today's episode, we're talking about, and Kelly and I are going to have a conversation about helping students develop deeper math thinking and why that is so critical in developing that conceptual understanding.

And you had an aha moment about this very early on in your career. Could you tell us that story?

[00:07:30] Kelly Serpa: Oh, yeah. Okay. I taught in a very traditional district. I actually taught in San Diego, which always shocks people. I have to tell them, "This is not a native San Diego accent. This is not a Southern California accent."

But I will tell you this, Ana, I taught a lot of children English. They learned a lot of English words with me. 80% of my students spoke a language other than English at home. So girl, there is an entire generation in Southern California that speak beautiful Spanish and this.

[00:08:05] Ana Torres: And they're so much better for it, Dr. Serpa.

[00:08:07] Kelly Serpa: They're so much better for it.

[00:08:08] Ana Torres: So much better for it.

[00:08:09] Kelly Serpa: They're so much better for it, but back to the question at hand over here. I did teach in a very traditional area. I taught fifth-grade math and sixth-grade math to the same students. So I would see them their fifth-grade year, and then I would see them again their sixth-grade year. And my big aha moment was when I saw these students again in sixth grade.

Year after year, and I would say to them, "Remember when we did this? Simplify these fractions," did whatever the mathematical concept was. And they would say "No, Miss. No, we never learned that, Miss. No, we never..." "Yes, I taught you that. It was a major, a major standard, a major part of the work that we did in fifth grade. What do you mean you don't remember anything about it?"

[00:08:53] Ana Torres: So that probably tugged at your heart a bit because you were in that unique situation of, "Wait a minute. I was your teacher last year. I'm looping with you this year. What do you mean you forgot this?"

[00:09:06] Kelly Serpa: Right. Right. Right. And I think so many times, too, in education... The fourth-grade teacher down the hall from me was one of my best friends.

[00:09:13] Ana Torres: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:13] Kelly Serpa: So, and phenomenal teacher. Her kids would come to me, and I'd say, "What did she do with you? She must not have taught you this." No, no, no, she did. But they forget. The retention isn't there when we're not teaching them these concepts in a meaningful way. So I'm giving away the butt of the joke, if you will.

So I would see these students for fifth grade and for sixth grade, and they weren't retaining the things, and I had to make a change with that. I had to do something to make sure that they had that retention that was there. And it was very hard for me, you know, to be that reflective teacher, and especially because I love math so much, and Ana, I'm a good math teacher. Right?

[00:09:55] Ana Torres: Yes, and so is that something that was almost like a knife to your heart? Like, "But wait a minute, I am that teacher that understands the concept, understands how to relay it." So that aha moment was like, "Wait a minute, but you don't remember it."

[00:10:11] Kelly Serpa: Yeah. Yeah. It changed my entire practice, and I think that also speaks to the importance of reflecting on your practice and being that reflective, vulnerable teacher with yourself and really reflecting like that.

[00:10:23] Ana Torres: So what was going through your head, and why was it important for you to make that change?

[00:10:28] Kelly Serpa: So what I had found as I started to reflect on my practice is a lot of the lessons or the activities or what I saw other people doing that I thought of as fluffy, I thought of as not rigorous, was actually conceptual understanding and letting the students sit in these concepts and develop a need for the math and how important that is.

So oftentimes, we're so concerned with the scope and sequence, the high-stakes tests, all of those important teaching things that I'm not disregarding, but it interrupted my practice because I was so focused on those things, I forgot about the math. I forgot about actually letting kids sit in the math long enough.

[00:11:10] Ana Torres: Sit.

[00:11:11] Kelly Serpa: Yes. Sit in it long enough to develop that conceptual understanding, to see the need for the math, and to let the little neurons connect. Right?

I think a lot about Zaretta Hammond's work, and even Jo Boaler's work, and how those neurons connect in your brain, and why it's so important that kids sit in that math so they can develop that conceptual understanding, as opposed to, "Hurry up. We got stuff to do. Practice, practice, practice. Rigor, rigor, rigor."

[00:11:37] Ana Torres: You used the phrase of... there were some activities that seemed less rigorous. What were those?

[00:11:44] Kelly Serpa: So one of them, and I wish I had this activity when I was in the classroom, but I had actually seen it afterwards. As I was looking through our Amplify Desmos Math curriculum, there's a lesson called Cookie Cutter.

[00:11:58] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:12:00] Kelly Serpa: It's in sixth grade. It's the fourth unit. Ana, this is one of my favorite lessons in our entire curriculum, because it's an introduction to dividing fractions.

[00:12:10] Ana Torres: Ooh.

[00:12:11] Kelly Serpa: It's an introduction to dividing fractions. It's going to put it in a meaningful way for the students. We're dividing up cookies onto plates. That's it.

So it really helps a student know if their answer is going to be more than one, less than one, and develop that conceptual understanding around fractions, as opposed to just the drill and kill. Here's the traditional algorithm. Don't ask questions. Just intake this and spit it back out.

[00:12:34] Ana Torres: Even though it seems less rigorous, it's good for developing that conceptual understanding, right? Right, Kelly?

[00:12:40] Kelly Serpa: It's so important, and that word rigorous, we throw it around in the math classroom so much. We throw it around in the educational arena way too much, 'cause what does that really mean? Ana, we've said it together to teachers.

[00:12:55] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:12:55] Kelly Serpa: What does it mean to be rigorous? It doesn't just mean bigger numbers, harder math.

It means, "Wait a minute. Let me think about this," or "I really want to do this to these cookies in this plate, and I can't." That's rigorous math. When students feel conflicted, it can really sit in the math that way.

[00:13:12] Ana Torres: Now, as we continue our storytelling journey, you had your aha moment standing in front of your kids when they literally had you self-reflect on, "But wait a minute, we don't remember any of this."

[00:13:23] Kelly Serpa: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:24] Ana Torres: How did you make the shift in your math instruction after this aha moment?

[00:13:28] Kelly Serpa: So I had a wonderful mentor where I taught in Southern California, Dr. Julie Cantillon, and she really encouraged us to go and watch other people teach. So I took advantage of that. I said, "Okay, I'm going to go see how other fifth and sixth grade teachers are doing it, 'cause I'm doing something wrong here."

And I'm so happy that she did that, and I found myself in a inner-city type school, so the demographics were a little different than the students that I was teaching. And this math teacher was crushing it, and these kids were crushing it. And I found that there was a lot more discourse happening in that math class than my math class.

In my math class, I was doing the talking, and we know the person doing the talking is the person doing the thinking. Right? In this particular inner-city math classroom, the kids were talking. Now, in order to get the kids talking, you need to ask them good questions.

So I refocused my skill set. I started to think about: what are these good questions I can ask these students, as opposed to what can I tell them? What questions can I ask them, and what situations can I set them up with so they can see themselves in the math?

This is what problem-based learning is. This is when I first got my introduction to problem-based learning is in actually putting the students in those math situations with the goal that they never, ever have to ask, "When am I ever going to need this?" because they can see it so clearly in the everyday math that we're doing.

[00:14:53] Ana Torres: And I really appreciate that you're walking us through your process of how you evolved. Unfortunately, a lot of times we don't get that opportunity to see good practice in action. But one thing that I want you to really expound on is you talked about questions.

It's not just having a plethora of questions or a bank of questions. It's having the right type of questions.

[00:15:18] Kelly Serpa: Right.

[00:15:19] Ana Torres: So what kind of questions did you lean on?

[00:15:21] Kelly Serpa: So I always like to start my math class... I believe engagement in the first five minutes of your math class is the most important thing. If you can hook those babies in the first five minutes, you can hold onto them for longer and pull that retention through longer.

[00:15:35] Ana Torres: So you hook them. You've got to hook them.

[00:15:36] Kelly Serpa: You've got to hook them, and you have to hook everyone, Ana. Everyone counts in those first five minutes. So what can you do that's very low floor? I don't even want to say "low floor, high ceiling," but really just "low floor." Entry point. Multiple entry point for all students to come on into that math class, no matter what level they are. Questions like "notice and wonder."

[00:15:57] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:15:58] Kelly Serpa: "Notice and wonder" is the best routine, in my humble opinion, the best routine to get started with 'cause everybody can do it. Everybody can say something. Everyone can come up with a question, can come up with a "notice or wonder."

So just putting something on the board, some kind of math problem, number talk, something like that, and asking students, "What do you notice? What do you wonder?" And then being quiet.

[00:16:25] Ana Torres: And noticing and wondering, everyone can have access to that. Right?

[00:16:29] Kelly Serpa: Right. Right.

[00:16:30] Ana Torres: And just those two concepts and the discourse that can come of that.

[00:16:36] Kelly Serpa: Right.

[00:16:36] Ana Torres: I get so excited with educators like you that are reflective, that can say, "I can evolve."

[00:16:43] Kelly Serpa: Yeah.

[00:16:44] Ana Torres: So what benefits did you see with students when you started shifting the way that you taught math in your classroom?

[00:16:52] Kelly Serpa: Number-one benefit, most important thing to me, was I saw a positive math identity start to be developed.

[00:16:59] Ana Torres: Oh, positive math identity.

[00:17:02] Kelly Serpa: Right. So many kids, especially by grades five and six, that upper elementary, when I would get them, they either thought, "I'm good at math," or, "I'm bad at math," or, "I was good at math, but now I'm bad at math." What happened to you? What happened that changed your mind? And it's because they were told no too many times.

They were told, "Incorrect. No. That's wrong. Do it this way." A "notice and wonder" is going to build positive math identity because everyone can do it, and everyone can be right. It's also a great place to develop unlikely friends. I say that all the time in the math classroom.

[00:17:37] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:17:37] Kelly Serpa: You know, maybe these two students, they don't play together at recess, they're not on any teams together, but they notice the same thing.

Ah. And now we've developed this little unlikely bond. Right? So in developing positive math identity, we're developing that math community, which is so important, and everyone's answer is valid. Everyone is doing a good job.

[00:17:57] Ana Torres: And you know, your colleague Dan Meyer, who we've had on the podcast, talks a lot about that.

And the fact that you and Dan are super student-centered, meaning who's the most important, most valuable person in the room, and it's the students.

[00:18:12] Kelly Serpa: Always.

[00:18:12] Ana Torres: Not necessarily the content. Right? In thinking of students' identity, and by the time, like you said, they got to you, they've already either had a good identity or not.

[00:18:21] Kelly Serpa: Right.

[00:18:22] Ana Torres: And I'm pretty sure you've heard my story of never feeling like I was a good math student. And you even sharing, we're all born with digits? Wow. Have a kindergarten teacher, first grade teacher, second grade teacher just say that to children. Math is all around us. Math is actually part of you.

I love it. So when you were making the shift, what were some of the challenges you faced trying to make this big shift? And again, largely on your own, right, Kellly?

[00:18:52] Kelly Serpa: Largely on my own. I did have my teachers. I did have my people. The community for teachers is so important, but largely on my own.

And it's funny that you should mention Dan, because that's when I first learned about his three-act task. So he's got, yeah, his three-act math and the tasks that go along with that, and I always say, "Give the kids something interesting to chew on. Let them chew on it, then connect it to the math." And that's what a lot of Dr. Meyer's work is focused on.

[00:19:16] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:19:17] Kelly Serpa: So I found that. I also found the importance of adding storytelling into my classroom. I tried to set my kids up. First off, word problems are scary. I've heard that from so many people.

[00:19:27] Ana Torres: Right. I always saw them as fun. We got up and acted out the actual, 'cause it's a story, isn't it, Kelly?

[00:19:35] Kelly Serpa: It is. And you know what, Ana, I've heard you say those dirty words before. I am not a math person. I never want to hear that come out of your mouth again. Okay? You acting out.

[00:19:43] Ana Torres: Yes, ma'am.

[00:19:43] Kelly Serpa: Okay.

[00:19:44] Ana Torres: Yes, ma'am. I love the redirection, and thank you for affirming, thank you for reaffirming and, so that I have a better math identity.

[00:19:52] Kelly Serpa: Yes.

[00:19:52] Ana Torres: I appreciate that, Dr. Serpa.

[00:19:53] Kelly Serpa: You're never too old to, yes, always got to build on that.

[00:19:55] Ana Torres: So word problems and storytelling. Tell me.

[00:19:58] Kelly Serpa: Okay, so here's what I would do. I would go in front of my beautiful fifth graders, the loves of my life. Right? My students. You know how we feel about our students.

[00:20:06] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:20:06] Kelly Serpa: And I would say, "Okay, class. Class, who has ever been to the aquarium?" 'Cause I had this great lesson all about being at the aquarium and different fish and all these things, connecting back to the aquarium.

Here's what happened. I immediately split my class into haves and have-nots. Some children had that experience. "Of course I've been to the aquarium, Miss. I experience all wonderful, beautiful museums with my family." Fantastic. Amazing. What we want for all of our kids.

But now I'm not welcoming everyone into the math class because there was another group of kids that never got that experience. So, I've already cut them out. "Nope, you don't belong here. You ain't never been to an aquarium."

[00:20:45] Ana Torres: That is actually an inadvertent, unintentional thing that we do.

[00:20:51] Kelly Serpa: Of course.

[00:20:51] Ana Torres: 'Cause it was not, it's not malicious, but just with that, that five-minute engagement is gone.

[00:20:58] Kelly Serpa: Right. And that goes back to the reflection. I was reflecting afterwards saying, "Ah, Kelly, what did you do with these kids? You split them."

Okay. Let's try it again. So then what I started to do was I started to find stories about students' experiences, quick picture books. I found myself in the first grade, in the second grade, in the kindergarten classroom, looking for a quick read-aloud that had some kind of math in it that I could connect back to my lessons, so I could set the stage.

I could set the problem for the problem-based learning for my students, so we would all have the same experience and then be able to speak about that experience and the math in that experience. It was more inclusive. It welcomed everyone in.

[00:21:37] Ana Torres: I know that as educators, that is a goal.

[00:21:40] Kelly Serpa: Yeah.

[00:21:40] Ana Torres: And so I know you've got some really great recommendations for educators who want to do this important work that you're doing, that you've done, and the evolution continues. Right, Kelly?

[00:21:53] Kelly Serpa: Always.

[00:21:54] Ana Torres: Let's spend some time on some recommendations that you would have for educators that are listening. What advice do you have? I know you have a lot, so let's start with one.

[00:22:06] Kelly Serpa: Build conceptual understanding first. Don't look at those lessons as fluffy, as optional, as unnecessary. Build that conceptual understanding first.

Slow yourself down. Let the students build that conceptual understanding, 'cause that's going to build the retention. That's when you're going to see it the next year in sixth grade. They're not looking at you like you're crazy. They're saying, "Oh, yeah, we did learn this. Oh, that was the aquarium lesson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember now." So conceptual understanding first.

[00:22:37] Ana Torres: So that's first.

[00:22:38] Kelly Serpa: That's first.

[00:22:39] Ana Torres: What are some other pieces of advice that you can give to our newer educators out there?

[00:22:44] Kelly Serpa: Engagement in the first five minutes of math class. So doing those routines, doing that "notice and wonder," doing "which one doesn't belong."

And you know what's so nice about which one doesn't belong? It works amazing in the math classroom, but it works in the science classroom. It works in the social studies classroom. It works for all the different subjects. All you do is you take four images or four numbers or four equations, four of something, and you ask your student which one doesn't belong.

And the beauty about these which one doesn't belong, at least the ones that I think are the best ones, is everything belongs and nothing belongs.

[00:23:21] Ana Torres: Ah.

[00:23:22] Kelly Serpa: Yeah. Every single one of those items, there's a reason why it fits with the others, but also a reason why it doesn't fit. So what we're doing with the "which one doesn't belong" is we're getting students to explain their answer, which so many times we see that in the math classroom. "Explain your answer," and the kids can't.

This is practice with explaining your answer, 'cause you're explaining your reasoning, and all these kids have an opinion, especially the middle schoolers. If I know anything about middle schoolers, Ana, it's that they have opinions. So they can look at this which one doesn't belong, and everyone can participate.

Engagement in the first five minutes of math class.

[00:23:57] Ana Torres: Well, and also, as you mentioned, that is a very asset-based perspective, too. Right? And so, something super easy to implement. Right?

[00:24:06] Kelly Serpa: Yep.

[00:24:07] Ana Torres: So we're already at advice two. What would you say advice number three is?

[00:24:12] Kelly Serpa: Okay. Maybe this should've been advice number one for me, because this one is very important. Can I change the order? Of course you can. Right?

[00:24:19] Ana Torres: You can. Absolutely.

[00:24:20] Kelly Serpa: That's right.

Every single kid needs fluency practice every single day.

[00:24:28] Ana Torres: Ooh. Say it again.

[00:24:29] Kelly Serpa: Every single kid needs fluency practice every single day.

[00:24:35] Ana Torres: They need it.

[00:24:35] Kelly Serpa: They need it.

[00:24:36] Ana Torres: They need it. Right, Kelly?

[00:24:37] Kelly Serpa: Nonnegotiable.

[00:24:38] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:24:38] Kelly Serpa: Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. However, Ana, here's what I see so often. Here's what I did so often. I get the flashcards out.

[00:24:49] Ana Torres: Ugh, yes.

[00:24:50] Kelly Serpa: And on those flashcards, it says 7 times 7, and that's it.

[00:24:54] Ana Torres: Get it right or get it wrong.

[00:24:56] Kelly Serpa: Right. That doesn't go along with the asset-based philosophy.

So fluency every single day, but fluency done right. Okay? I think about Dan Finkel's work of spaced repetition, the fluency that we do in Amplify Desmos Math, which is "Yeah, we show you flashcards. However, we're starting off in an asset-based way. So when we show you 7 times 7, there's seven little buttons on there. There's a visual representatation."

[00:25:22] Ana Torres: Visual representation is important, Dr. Serpa.

[00:25:25] Kelly Serpa: Yes, and that's the asset-based, seeing the visuals, and so is automaticity. So eventually we do take those visuals away, but we want to start the students out with giving them something, not just throwing this fact in front of them. Giving them something, building that understanding, and then taking those away so that automaticity is there.

So fluency every day, every kid.

[00:25:46] Ana Torres: But fluency in a way that is asset-based, meaning, yes, do we need to know what 7 times 7 is and know it quickly? Absolutely.

So I liked how you talked about the visual representation and the scaffolds we provide. And for those who may still need it, we'll work with that. But we've got to remove those scaffolds eventually so that automaticity is there, but I do think that is important. So yes, fluency.

[00:26:06] Kelly Serpa: Oh, and don't time it.

[00:26:11] Ana Torres: Oh, talk about the timing. Go ahead.

[00:26:13] Kelly Serpa: Don't time it. I don't want anyone to be like, "I better time this." Don't time it.

We're not timing students for fluency. Let them sit in the fluency.

[00:26:22] Ana Torres: Sit in the fluency.

[00:26:23] Kelly Serpa: Mm-hmm. As well.

[00:26:23] Ana Torres: Sit in the math.

[00:26:24] Kelly Serpa: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:25] Ana Torres: Do you have any more advice?

[00:26:27] Kelly Serpa: This is kind of biased advice but I'm willing to give it anyway.

[00:26:31] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:26:32] Kelly Serpa: You need a high-quality Tier 1 curriculum.

[00:26:34] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:26:35] Kelly Serpa: It starts with that high-quality Tier 1 curriculum for all students. I happen to know a really good one.

[00:26:43] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:26:43] Kelly Serpa: Our teachers are working so hard. They're working so hard trying to be educators and doing what educators do best, which is developing relationships with kids, but also trying to be curriculum writers.

[00:26:54] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:26:55] Kelly Serpa: Trying to be people that are going out there, finding all this. If you have that high-quality curriculum, it's going to free up your teachers to be able to build those relationships, to be able to let their teaching style shine, to be able to do things that the publisher just can't do, which is that relationship.

So knowing that you can rely on high-quality lessons is really, really important, so look closely at your Tier 1 everyday lessons for all kids.

[00:27:22] Ana Torres: So as you think of when you made your shift, and we talked about this aquarium story, how would having high-quality material and a high-quality curriculum, how would that have helped you be a better educator?

[00:27:35] Kelly Serpa: It wouldn't have taken me so long to realize, "Oh, a story would help." In Amplify Desmos Math, we start every unit in grades K through five with a story. We start right away with a story. So that story was there for me. No more searching in the kindergarten room for a nice picture book that I could then tie to the math. No.

That's what a high-quality curriculum does. It frees you up to make those relationships, to do what you do best, which is teach.

[00:28:03] Ana Torres: So what are some of the ways that the work that you're doing, and know, listeners, Dr. Serpa travels the country talking to teachers, talking to leaders about our Amplify programs.

And so talk to us a little bit about what you're doing nationally, and how the work that you're doing is supporting that deep thinking and conceptual understanding in math.

[00:28:27] Kelly Serpa: So, Ana, you've heard me say this 1,000 times, this is my dream job, what I do.

[00:28:33] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:28:33] Kelly Serpa: This is my dream job, and I'm going to give you your flowers now, because you also know I say this all the time.

Listeners, I didn't think I was cut out for this position. I didn't think my presentation style fit in with other people, until I saw your friend and mine, Ana Torres, present, and then I said, "Oh, I can fit in here." So Ana is a huge mentor to me, too.

[00:29:00] Ana Torres: Aw.

[00:29:01] Kelly Serpa: Good. I hope I embarrassed you a little bit.

[00:29:02] Ana Torres: Oh, gosh. I am blushing, and I appreciate those kind words. But back to our regular programming. So what are some of those ways that the work you're doing around the country now helps educators to support deep thinking and conceptual understanding in math?

[00:29:17] Kelly Serpa: Yeah, so Amplify Desmos Math is really a structured approach to problem-based learning, is what we call it.

You know me. I'm a recovering traditional teacher trying to do more of that problem-based learning, 'cause I saw a need for it.

[00:29:29] Ana Torres: You're a recovering...

[00:29:30] Kelly Serpa: Recovering. I'm recovering. 'Cause I know it's the best way to teach kids, but girl, it's hard to do this problem-based learning. So this is why I love what Amplify is doing, because we take a structured approach to problem-based learning.

Yeah, there's moments for that direct instruction, but it's not happening in the first five minutes of math class. It's happening after the kids have chewed on the math and digested it a little bit, had those neuron connections firing, see themselves and their positive math identity. Oh yeah, we've just got to clean up this informal language here with a little direct instruction.

Okay, now we can keep going. So we truly do take that structured approach, conceptual understanding first, but procedural fluency, and that understanding is important as well.

[00:30:16] Ana Torres: And you mentioned fluency.

[00:30:18] Kelly Serpa: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:19] Ana Torres: Is there something embedded in Amplify? Can you talk to me about that?

[00:30:23] Kelly Serpa: Our Amplify fluency. Okay.

So these are our digital flashcards, again, based on Dan Finkel's work of spaced repetition. We consider a set of flashcards 30 of them. So the students will log on. On their screen, they'll see a box set, 30 flashcards, done in that asset-based way, starting with 10 frames, starting with buttons and dots, starting with that, and eventually taking that away.

But here's what I really love, 'cause I am a data geek. Big surprise. Here's what I love, the reports that it generates through that. I see all of my students' names listed on one side. I see all the math facts listed on top. So it's really easy to see how consistently students are getting these facts. We use varying shades of purple.

If it's dark purple, a student's getting it consistently without those visual representations. And if it's a lighter purple, we're still working on that fact. So it's at a glance, I know exactly how my students are performing on those skills, on that fluency.

[00:31:22] Ana Torres: It's nice to be able to see, like you said, progress.

It's not like right or wrong, or you know it or you don't. You're also able to see progress. Now, if listeners wanted to engage with this, could they?

[00:31:35] Kelly Serpa: Yes. Put it in the show notes, Ana. Let's go. Give them a link. So it is right on their Amplify platform. It's a freebie, which we love.

[00:31:43] Ana Torres: And that's what I want to... it's a freebie. Yes.

[00:31:45] Kelly Serpa: I got the hookup. It's a freebie.

[00:31:46] Ana Torres: Yes. We're going to give you the hookup, listeners. If you're interested in fluency practice from Amplify, it is free.

[00:31:53] Kelly Serpa: That's right.

[00:31:54] Ana Torres: You spoke earlier about "notice and wonder"ings. Are there ways that Amplify Desmos math supports that, Kelly?

[00:32:01] Kelly Serpa: Oh, yeah. So our first five minutes, again, we're trying to build that engagement, so you'll see it right in the lessons.

We'll start with a "notice and wonder." No need to go find your own. We've got one for you, where it's highly researched. Again, let us do this for you, please, so you can do what you do best as a teacher.

So right in that first five minutes of math class, you'll see the warm-up is a "notice and wonder." The warm-up is a "which one doesn't belong." The warm-up is a number talk. Teachers, I know you're going all over the place trying to find high-quality number talks. We got you. Okay? We've got you.

[00:32:35] Ana Torres: And what about storytelling, Kelly? 'Cause you mentioned that that is something that is also very important. Right?

Problem-solving, reading a word problem, unpacking it... How does Amplify do that well?

[00:32:49] Kelly Serpa: Yeah. So each one of our K through five units starts with a five-minute read-aloud. That's the problem. That's the story for the problem-based learning. And the nice thing is, we don't just read it and then say, "That's the end of it." No, no, no. All the math in that unit is going to keep coming back to that story.

So my very most favorite story in our curriculum is actually a fifth-grade story. It is about Princess Sweet Socks. Okay?

[00:33:19] Ana Torres: Princess Sweet Socks?

[00:33:20] Kelly Serpa: Yes.

[00:33:21] Ana Torres: Okay.

[00:33:22] Kelly Serpa: And the princess is a shelter kitty, and she's a little spicy, not seasoned as well. Okay?

[00:33:28] Ana Torres: Ah. Okay.

[00:33:30] Kelly Serpa: But all the math in this story is around the princess and dividing up resources.

You get it? You get it? Yes. Yes. At the shelter with her shelter friends. And I will, spoiler alert, spoiler alert over here. It does have a happy ending. I am very sensitive with animals. Princess Sweet Socks is a happy story. You're going to love it. But all the math is centered around that, and we keep coming back to that story and the princess to really drop students in that problem-based learning.

[00:33:58] Ana Torres: I love that you said it's a read-aloud, but it doesn't just end with the read-aloud. That read-aloud is expanded upon.

[00:34:06] Kelly Serpa: We're all literacy teachers, Ana, and we're all math teachers, too.

[00:34:09] Ana Torres: And you're absolutely right.

Any final highlights from your work at Amplify that you'd like to point out for current users or others who may be a little curious about it?

[00:34:21] Kelly Serpa: I think especially if you're starting to do a curriculum review, if you're starting to look at that math curriculum, if you're starting to think about that, you're going to get a whole bunch of stuff from publishers, and I would like educators and curriculum directors and superintendents, everyone to know, "Listen guys, we all got the stuff."

Every one of us has the student edition, the teacher edition, some kind of personalized learning assessment. We all got the stuff. Okay? What makes Amplify stand out, to me anyway, and why it is where I want to spend the rest of my career, is because our stuff is so high quality. Forget the stuff. Look at the math.

[00:35:03] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:35:04] Kelly Serpa: Look at the actual lessons. What is happening in this lesson with the student?

[00:35:10] Ana Torres: The substance of it all is what I'm hearing you say.

[00:35:13] Kelly Serpa: I always tell teachers, "Look at the math. Look at what your everyday math lesson would be," and that really separates the instructional materials out there.

[00:35:22] Ana Torres: Thank you for sharing those thoughts, Kelly.

Now, da, da, da, da, da, da, a little drum roll here. Our wisdom nugget segment.

[00:35:30] Kelly Serpa: Dun, dun, dun.

[00:35:31] Ana Torres: Yeah. Dun, dun, Kelly and I are about to have a little bit of fun.

What's your favorite book or movie or TV show about teaching?

[00:35:41] Kelly Serpa: Ana, you know me. I am so Boston. I bleed Boston. Okay? So there is only one answer for this.

Asset-based pedagogy, math brilliance in unexpected places. The answer is Good Will Hunting, and that's the only correct answer. I will not take questions at this time.

[00:36:00] Ana Torres: I have watched that movie 100 times. Now, it's, yep, I'm going to watch it later on today. Now, you mentioned a mentor, but tell us the name of a mentor or one quality that made that person a great mentor to you.

[00:36:13] Kelly Serpa: Yeah. Dr. Julie, I just absolutely love her. Her advice to me was, "Find your community. Go see what other educators are doing and stick with them. Okay? They're going to make you a better teacher." So often I hear from teachers, "I feel siloed. I feel alone." No, do not let that happen to you. Go find your community.

[00:36:35] Ana Torres: I agree with that.

On tough days, Dr. Serpa, what reminds you of why you're so passionate about education?

[00:36:42] Kelly Serpa: I love learning. I love learning. I love being with people who are learning. I believe that math education is the key to ending poverty. Right? Math education is powerful. All education is, but there's something special about math to me that can really break those cycles for students.

[00:37:02] Ana Torres: Love the learning. That's such great advice as well.

And so before we go, I'd love to give you a chance to shout out a school or a district that's close to your heart.

[00:37:14] Kelly Serpa: Oh my gosh. I get to work with the most amazing educators, but I want to highlight this little district from Ohio. South Western City School District in Ohio.

Sarah Weber is over there on that team, and what they did is they looked at the math. When we did a curriculum adoption process with them, Austin Armwood is our Amplify rep over there. He developed such an amazing relationship with this district that I was able to come in and just really focus on the math with them.

We unpacked standards. We looked at Amplify Desmos math lessons and how they address those standards. Big shout-out, South Western City School District, Sarah Weber, Ohio.

[00:37:53] Ana Torres: Ohio.

[00:37:54] Kelly Serpa: For sure. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:54] Ana Torres: Such an honor and privilege to have you here, Dr. Serpa. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to share your wisdom nuggets with Beyond My Years listeners. Thank you.

[00:38:06] Kelly Serpa: Thank you for having me, Ana.

[00:38:11] Ana Torres: That was Dr. Kelly Serpa. She's a STEM product specialist at Amplify. Catch more of Dr. Serpa's classroom tips at amplify.com/mathclassroomadvice. Be sure to subscribe. And you heard Dr. Serpa describing what good fluency practice can look like. Go check it out for yourself at fluency.amplify.com. We've got a link in the show notes, too.

Now, let's welcome back our Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher Eric Cross.

Before we get to the specifics, I know you have a couple of takeaways for me. What did you think of the conversation?

[00:38:51] Eric Cross: I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the energy and the really practical things. And I'd argue almost every one of her insights traveled across subjects and grade levels.

[00:39:00] Ana Torres: So let's start with your first takeaway, Eric.

[00:39:02] Eric Cross: Yeah. Serpa's whole dissertation really boils down to kids know stuff, and they don't show up empty.

[00:39:10] Ana Torres: Kids know a lot of stuff.

[00:39:11] Eric Cross: Right. They do. And we call this in academic terms, we call this funds of knowledge, what they bring into the classroom.

[00:39:16] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:39:17] Eric Cross: And it's easy to think that I have to pour everything into my students, but math is in nature.

It's everything that we see. There's patterns. There's things that students have, and maybe they don't know the words to attach it, but they have experience with it. And knowing your students allows you to know what to connect this conceptual understanding to. And she talked about Zaretta Hammond.

She talks about when we assume that kids are empty, we over-scaffold everything.

[00:39:40] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:39:40] Eric Cross: And when you do that, they can end up with this learned helplessness. And so when we have an asset-based lens, when we assume that they know certain things, then we're able to get into deeper teaching with them, and that was the first thing that really popped out to me.

[00:39:54] Ana Torres: Yes. What kids don't show up empty. One of the things that I had to remind myself of is they're not clean slates.

Right? So first takeaway, kids don't show up empty. Let's not make assumptions. Right, Eric? 'Cause unfortunately, we tend to.

[00:40:07] Eric Cross: Yes. And, and it's also important for us to go back and find out what they know.

You can do forms. You can do surveys in class and elicit that information from them. Then you're starting from a more advanced place as opposed to cold and finding out passively. Be active.

[00:40:22] Ana Torres: Yeah. I was the queen of getting to know you bad. And we would not only do that in the beginning, we'd do that throughout, as you know, share something new that I didn't know about you before. So yes, I think those approaches, super beneficial in the classroom.

Let's talk about your second takeaway.

[00:40:37] Eric Cross: Yeah. The second one is conceptual understanding comes first, and let the fast stuff come later.

[00:40:42] Ana Torres: Break that down for us. What do you mean by that?

[00:40:44] Eric Cross: Well, Serpa told a story about when she looped with her students. And she said that was her aha moment, that retention wasn't there because she had rushed past the conceptual part to get to the procedural part. And gosh, as teachers with pacing and standards, that was real for me. And so her advice was don't treat those "sit in it" lessons like fluffier, optional type of lessons. They need...

[00:41:09] Ana Torres: I'm snapping here.

[00:41:10] Eric Cross: Right?

[00:41:10] Ana Torres: I'm snapping here. I love this. You have to let them sit in it.

[00:41:13] Eric Cross: Yeah. You got to let them...

[00:41:14] Ana Torres: Let them sit in it ...

[00:41:14] Eric Cross: You've got to let them sit in it, and that can be uncomfortable, even for the teacher.

[00:41:18] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:41:18] Eric Cross: They need to develop a need for math before you formalize it.

And it's the same thing for all content areas. I see this in science too, and this, and she mentioned, I think, Jo Boaler in this. When we're asking kids just to memorize things, we're only engaging their working memory, which they're going to forget. And some kids...

Sometimes assessments just measure how good your short-term memory is, which isn't really like the deep learning we, right, the deep learning we want, not the parts of the brain that build those durable connections, and that's through patterns, through reasoning, cross-curricular work, even the vocab. Letting the vocab come later and getting to the big conceptual ideas so that we don't stumble students with a bunch of academic jargon.

And this is the one of the reasons in science that we start with phenomena. We can access background knowledge. We can spark curiosity. We can spark relevance. And I had a mentor who said, "Just because you're teaching it doesn't mean they're learning it."

[00:42:11] Ana Torres: Oof. True.

[00:42:13] Eric Cross: It's a mantra I have in my head, and I have to remember that.

And she said, "Don't re-teach it. Repackage it," because if you re-teach it, you're going to make the same mistakes. But repackage it from a different lens, a different angle, multiple perspectives, use different metaphors so that students have another opportunity to grasp it but in a different context, and then you're going to see the learning actually happen.

[00:42:33] Ana Torres: Snap, snap to your mentor.

[00:42:35] Eric Cross: Yeah.

[00:42:35] Ana Torres: And so what are we closing out with this time?

[00:42:38] Eric Cross: This is one that was really validating for me, and it's a fun one. She talked about winning the first five minutes and making sure that everyone can get in.

[00:42:46] Ana Torres: And the key was everyone. Right?

[00:42:48] Eric Cross: Everyone. Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:48] Ana Torres: That everyone could get in.

[00:42:50] Eric Cross: It was. She was adamant about the engagement in the first five minutes being the important stretch of the class. And this does multiple things. One, it shifts the kids, especially if you're teaching secondary, it shifts the culture from where the kids just came from. So just from a classroom management piece, it's there.

[00:43:06] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:43:06] Eric Cross: But then when you have these go-to routines, these low-floor, high-ceiling routines, like "notice and wonder," huge thing as a science teacher. "What do you notice? What do you wonder?"

[00:43:13] Ana Torres: Ooh, I love those. Yes.

[00:43:14] Eric Cross: Hearing a math teacher say that, I was like, "This is my heart."

She also said, "Which one doesn't belong?" And the beauty of that is that everyone can participate. Everyone can notice something. Everyone has an opinion. Your high students are going to be stretched. Your students who are still developing, they're going to be able to feed off of other students, but they're also going to be able to contribute based on what they think.

And it forces students to explain their reasoning, which is the exact skill that we demand, but we don't always practice.

[00:43:40] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:43:40] Eric Cross: We want them to explain their thinking, and my ELA teachers know this. Right? This is the CPR. Any time you want kids talking from minute one, these type of activities are great.

I have one that I do when I start the Traits and Reproduction unit. I start it off with this big concept. This whole unit's about change. And I grab random things in my classroom. It's totally random.

[00:44:02] Ana Torres: Nice.

[00:44:02] Eric Cross: My students think it's intentional. But I'll have a mouse that I have in a jar that's been preserved. I have maybe an iPhone case. Maybe, I'm just looking around right now. My bearded dragon I'll put on a table.

It's just random things, but then I'll put a question to them, and I'll say, "List as many ways that the item on your desk can represent change. Go." And students are like, "Well, what's the right answer?" And there's no right answer.

[00:44:27] Ana Torres: There isn't one.

[00:44:28] Eric Cross: It's just, can you just find that connection? And so I love those things.

[00:44:32] Ana Torres: So Dr. Serpa was not scared of having what I like to call the buzzing in the classroom. Right? Inspiring curiosity. And the fact that we all say, as teachers, we want to make sure that we reach every student, but we may not always know how to do that.

And so just this "notice and wonder"ing, a very simple activity, can engage students in so many different ways, and it actually engages all students, right, within that first five minutes. And also, this can be any content area that we teach.

I think I see you here looking like you got something more to say or another takeaway for me.

[00:45:09] Eric Cross: The list goes on and on. And she had said something that, you know when you listen to somebody and then something pops out? But it was the person who's doing the talking is the person doing the thinking.

[00:45:19] Ana Torres: Snap, snap.

[00:45:19] Eric Cross: And she was talking about a story about a classroom that was outperforming hers, and the difference that she noticed was that in her classroom she was primarily doing the talking, and in this other classroom that was outperforming, the students were doing the talking. Right?

And I've had a lot of great teacher mentors, and one of them said, "You should talk just long enough to give instruction," and then lets the students do the talking.

[00:45:39] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:45:39] Eric Cross: And going from telling to questioning. And it goes back to Zaretta Hammond. The rigor is when the kids are doing, the students are doing the cognitive work themselves.

[00:45:48] Ana Torres: Exactly. Yes.

[00:45:49] Eric Cross: It's not in explaining what we do at them. And so in your next classroom talk time, if you're doing 80% of it, you're doing 80% of the thinking, if they're just passively absorbing. And so flipping that, asking them questions, and then letting them work through it.

Even one of them, Ana, you'd be proud of this, I'm being very intentional this year about my students, because remember, I have seventh graders.

[00:46:10] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:46:10] Eric Cross: And reading avoidance is real. I got students that'll say, "I ain't reading all that." And there are instructions that I write explicitly, and it's in student-friendly language. It's not a lot.

But they'll ask me, "Mr. Cross, what are we doing?" And I'll say, "Did you read the instructions?" And they're like, "Yeah." I go, "Which one are you having a problem on?" And then they'll look at their paper, and they'll read the instructions, and they'll go, "Oh." And I go, "You didn't read it, did you?" They're like, "No."

[00:46:33] Ana Torres: You didn't read the instructions.

[00:46:34] Eric Cross: No, I didn't read it.

[00:46:35] Ana Torres: Exactly. Yep.

[00:46:35] Eric Cross: But I have to build in time to slow down to allow my students not just to read and decode, but also letting them chew on, "Hey, what is this actually telling me?"

Letting them do that heavy lifting.

[00:46:46] Ana Torres: We call that "chunk and chew."

[00:46:48] Eric Cross: Is that what that's called? I'm going to start using that.

[00:46:50] Ana Torres: The person doing the talking is the person doing the thinking. And I recall her also saying you've got to ask the right questions too.

[00:46:59] Eric Cross: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:59] Ana Torres: Eric, as always, it's so great to chat with you, and we'll do it again.

[00:47:04] Eric Cross: Sounds great, Ana. That was a great episode.

[00:47:08] Ana Torres: Thanks for listening to Beyond My Years from Amplify. We are all about supporting teachers, and we've got a bundle of math resources for you. We've got a special math playlist, including a series of insights on student-centered math practices. You can find a link in the show notes.

And for more great resources to support your math instruction, visit amplify.com/k5math. There, you'll get access to a bundle of free resources, including 10 low-prep, high-impact math activities, K-5 instructional routine cards, and much, much more. Check out the show notes for a link.

Next up on Beyond My Years, we're bringing back one of our all-time favorite guests. Fawn Nguyen will explain what it looks like to teach math in a way where there can be multiple solutions and why that's so important.

[00:48:00] Fawn Nguyen: Math has always been a gatekeeper because I feel like we've collapsed so much of the learning into right and wrong answers.

And most kids figure out really early that you're either in or out. So that's not a math problem. It was never a math problem. It's a school math design problem.

[00:48:17] Ana Torres: I'm your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolin. Until next time, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.