Math that works for every student, with Fawn Nguyen

Host Ana Torres is joined by Fawn Nguyen, Director of STEM Initiatives at Amplify, one of the show's most beloved returning guests. A 30-year middle school math teacher and K–8 math coach before she joined Amplify, Fawn shares practical strategies for teaching math in a way that values multiple solutions and makes every student feel like they belong. Fawn breaks down the routines that open math up to every learner and explains why stepping back to let students do the thinking is one of the most powerful moves a teacher can make. Our Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher Eric Cross, joins Ana to reflect on why "I'm not good at math" is usually a scar with a story behind it. He and Ana discuss why widening our definition of success is where healing begins.

Show notes:

• Listen to Fawn Nguyen's first appearance on Beyond My Years.
• Learn more about Amplify Desmos Math.
• Watch Student Centered Math Practices on YouTube. 
• Listen to all of Beyond My Years’ math episodes.
• Follow us on Instagram.
• Subscribe to Beyond My Years.
• Connect with Ana Torres.
• Connect with Eric Cross.

Quotes:

"We can all be mathematicians—not just the fast ones." —Fawn Nguyen

"You're not the answer key. What you say instead is: 'You tell me.'" —Fawn Nguyen

"When you immerse children in critical thinking and problem-solving daily, they show up to problems they've never seen before and they're already in their problem-solving mode." —Fawn Nguyen

"Who wants to teach anything if you know the kids are going to dread it?" —Fawn Nguyen

"Teach in a way that makes you look forward to going back the next day." —Fawn Nguyen

"When success is widened, more students are gonna be able to walk through it." —Eric Cross

"Our anxieties are contagious—so it's important to include adults in the intervention, not just students." —Eric Cross

"We make time for what's important. And if it's valuable, we will create those five minutes." —Ana Torres 

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Fawn Nguyen: Math has always been a gatekeeper because I feel like we've collapsed so much of the learning into right and wrong answers. And most kids figure out really early that you're either in or out.

[00:00:15] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres, and welcome to Beyond My Years from Amplify. On Beyond My Years, we know educators never stop learning, and that's why on every episode, we share research-backed strategies and tried-and-true lessons from experts and experienced educators. And as always, I'm joined by my amazing Classroom Insider, Eric Cross, middle school science teacher.

How's it going, Eric Cross?

[00:00:42] Eric Cross: Feeling good, Ana. Happy to be here. Happy to break down another episode with you.

[00:00:45] Ana Torres: Isn't it nice that we're always happy to be with each other, Eric? It's always great.

[00:00:49] Eric Cross: It's fun talking to good people, and you get to talk to great people, and I get to talk to you.

And we get to talk about things that are really important, which is supporting teachers and supporting students.

[00:00:57] Ana Torres: Now, today, we're talking about math and why it's valuable to approach math in a way where there can be multiple solutions and where all students feel valuable. And we're welcoming back one of our favorite guests, Fawn Nguyen.

[00:01:13] Eric Cross: Your interviews and conversations with Fawn are always great, and so I know this is going to be another great episode.

[00:01:19] Ana Torres: Let's bring on Fawn, and we will check in with each other after this episode.

[00:01:24] Eric Cross: Sounds good.

[00:01:29] Ana Torres: Today's guest is one of our all-time favorite guests. I know she's one of mine, for sure. She's Amplify's Director of STEM Initiatives. Previously, she was a math coach for a K-8 school district and middle school teacher for 30 years before that. Next to being a mom, she says teacher is her favorite title.

You can't see her, but she's smiling ear to ear, listeners. Welcome back, Fawn Nguyen. How are you?

[00:01:58] Fawn Nguyen: I am doing well. Thank you so much. I love to be back. I've lost count. How many times... Is this my 10th?

[00:02:05] Ana Torres: Maybe 11. Who knows? You've been on. We just can't stop having you on. Well, we want to see how you're doing, and all of the neat things that you are working with teachers on out there.

We had a wonderful conversation with you on Season 1 that went into your journey into teaching, and let me tell you, we got great feedback about your story. We're going to link that in the show notes for anyone who hasn't listened to it yet.

But today, we're going to talk about math instruction that allows for multiple pathways, multiple solutions, where all students feel valuable. We're going to give strategies for putting this into practice, but before we get into that, Fawn, why do you feel this is such an important topic on your mind?

[00:02:54] Fawn Nguyen: It is so important because of the simple fact that people who have real trauma with math, with the word math, just hearing it... And this is more than just the casual, "I don't like math," or, "I'm not a person..." That gets tossed out a lot, but we're talking about true trauma.

And two people come to mind for me. It's the 70-year-old Cathy, who was sitting next to me on a flight, breaking down in tears, telling me about middle school. She's 70 years old and she's bringing up a middle school event that was where she got her first F. And here we are, all teary on a flight, and only because she asked, we shared where we were going. And it was to Cincinnati, and I said, "I'm going to Cincinnati for a math conference." That was enough. She said, "You know, you lost me when you said math."

And another one is just the opposite age spectrum. He's only 10 years old, and his teacher in Kentucky, his lovely teacher in Kentucky, shared with me that he wrote down on paper that he hates math because he never gets it right. He never gets the right answer.

[00:04:03] Ana Torres: The 10-year-old example just gave me goosebumps, because that is how I felt.

[00:04:08] Fawn Nguyen: It's real.

[00:04:09] Ana Torres: In a math classroom, you never get it right. And the fact that you used the word trauma, we're not just talking about a dislike. It's traumatic. So thank you for sharing those examples of real-life people that you've talked to, Fawn.

[00:04:24] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. And they just keep surfacing. And I want to add that math has always been a gatekeeper.

[00:04:30] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:04:30] Fawn Nguyen: Because I feel like we've collapsed so much of the learning into right and wrong answers. There's only one right answer because of standardized tests, because of strict pacing guide, and most kids figure out really early that you're either in or out. So that's not a math problem. It was never a math problem. It's a school math and design problem.

We need to open up those tasks for multiple approaches that we'll continue to talk some more. And we hear about the low-floor, high-task, but I want to say not just low-floor, because I can't get into that floor. I need the doors opened first.

[00:05:04] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:05:05] Fawn Nguyen: I need to get in. I get in so I can step on that low floor first, that all kids can be, we can all be mathematicians, not just the fast ones.

[00:05:14] Ana Torres: And I like the fact that you use the word all. All kids should feel valued in a math classroom. Right, Fawn?

[00:05:23] Fawn Nguyen: Of course. Yeah.

[00:05:23] Ana Torres: And so let's talk about that. Was there a particular moment for you when the importance of taking this approach to math instruction really sunk in for you, Fawn?

[00:05:35] Fawn Nguyen: Well, for my own assessment, I just realized, despite all my As, and I've shared this before, despite all my As, I've, all of a sudden, I came up to something that's busted that wide open, how shallow it was, my math, and how mimic-y and how regurgitative it was.

And frankly, it was no fun at all. And when I was able to engage in mathematics, struggle with it, yeah, and getting support and talking with someone, it's like, how did this not happen from kindergarten through 12th grade that I never shared, have any conversation about a math problem with any of my classmates?

If anything, it was such a lonely, thinking back, I was just cranking out worksheets and worksheets. Yeah, I was good at those, but thinking, not so much.

[00:06:22] Ana Torres: Well, and the As meant you were good. Right?

[00:06:25] Fawn Nguyen: Right. Oh, yeah.

[00:06:26] Ana Torres: Meaning that A was, should have been, "Hey, Fawn knows it well." But you just said you really never talked to anybody about it.

[00:06:34] Fawn Nguyen: No.

[00:06:34] Ana Torres: You never really understood math in depth. So you found it to be a very, what, shallow experience.

[00:06:41] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah, shallow. Exactly. So, kind of fraud, just, you know?

[00:06:46] Ana Torres: Did you feel a little like an imposter?

[00:06:48] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. Imposter.

[00:06:48] Ana Torres: Like an imposter to some degree?

[00:06:51] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah, because the As didn't mean anything then. It just flipped. It's why did I get all these As when I don't understand the material? I was good at, I was a good student. I listened.

[00:07:02] Ana Torres: I want to hear more about your experience trying to bring these, these approaches to your own teaching. Is this something that you did from the very start of your career?

 Tell us your evolution.

[00:07:12] Fawn Nguyen: Oh, absolutely not. I started out the same way. I taught the same way that I learned, the "I do, we do, you do." And honestly, I felt it in my gut. There were days when I thought, "What am I doing here? What am I doing here?"

Because I can just hand them the teacher's edition if they wanted it. And we could all just wasting our time being in the class, because I really was just spitting back what the teacher guy said.

[00:07:41] Ana Torres: Teaching how you were taught.

[00:07:42] Fawn Nguyen: I mean, exactly. So when this revelation where I realized my math was so shallow, I had a chance to tackle problems and be open about it, I found so much joy in doing that.

So simply it was just, I want my students to feel the same way. This to me is mathematics. This is fun. It finally became fun for the good reasons, not fun because I got As.

[00:08:07] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:08:07] Fawn Nguyen: So that was the shift. And I would insert, embed these non-routine tasks. The ones that I actually experienced, I brought those to the classroom, and then that bled into the curricular stuff.

It's like, okay, well, we don't have to just talk about these non-routine, these special tasks. We can do this all the time. In all of mathematics, we can do this, have conversations, and find multiple strategies.

[00:08:34] Ana Torres: Do you remember any of those early routines that you tried out? Was there one that clicked for you?

[00:08:39] Fawn Nguyen: Oh, that was the visual pattern. Yeah, those were the visual patterns.

[00:08:43] Ana Torres: The visual patterns.

[00:08:43] Fawn Nguyen: That's how I... Yeah, that was my first love, was in visual patterns, because talk about different ways to see something. You're given the first three steps, and however you see it, what would the fourth step look like? And then be able to generalize.

[00:08:57] Ana Torres: So you talked about visualization, some early routines that you tried out, but what were some challenges that you faced along the way?

[00:09:06] Fawn Nguyen: I was lucky that I had the support of teachers, my admins, and parents in general. I was focused on the mathematics and their children. That was always priority for me, so I think they recognized that.

So the real challenge was the pacing guide, I have to admit. We never get through everything, and even after 30 years, I never get through it. And honestly, to this day, I still don't understand how we have 180 days to teach, but the state test shows up right early May or mid-May.

[00:09:35] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:09:36] Fawn Nguyen: I don't know. Somebody needs to explain that one to me.

But here's what ended up happening. Our test scores went up, because when you immerse children in critical thinking and problem-solving daily, they show up to problems they've never seen before, and they're already in their problem-solving mode.

They have strategies. They dig in, and to me, that's the whole point of school, to help students solve problems they haven't encountered yet.

[00:10:02] Ana Torres: Which is a lifelong skill. Right?

[00:10:04] Fawn Nguyen: Oh, exactly. Exactly.

[00:10:04] Ana Torres: I mean, in life, we're going to have problems, and we're going to need to solve them.

[00:10:10] Fawn Nguyen: Absolutely. Yep.

[00:10:10] Ana Torres: What other benefits do you see or did you see as you started to employ this approach, in yourself and with students?

[00:10:19] Fawn Nguyen: No, I want to say literally health benefits. I just talk about, we just talk about math trauma. So to do this, meaning we're trying to include students so that there's no reason anybody should hate math.

And I've said this before, math hasn't done anything to anyone. It's school math. It's school math that we need to figure out, and we are making great strides. The shift is happening. So, I just want kids, my goal is I don't want kids to hate math. It's something they dread, and that was something I needed to see.

Simple as that. Who wants to teach anything if the kids dread it? And they will pick it up from the teachers, too, because let's not kid ourselves. We have teachers who have math anxiety themselves. We have adults, and they became teachers. So it's not just about the students. It's about adults. It's just we need to be healthier about our view of mathematics.

Two things I remember that just lift me about why we do this. Student said to me at lunchtime, she just said, "Ms. Nguyen, I'm not good at math, but this is my favorite class."

[00:11:25] Ana Torres: Wow.

[00:11:26] Fawn Nguyen: That has to do with the classroom, the atmosphere.

[00:11:30] Ana Torres: The environment, yes.

[00:11:30] Fawn Nguyen: The culture that we've established, yeah. Belonging.

And another student, this one is so sweet. Another student, out of nowhere in the middle class, she just blurted out, "I'm going to miss this class." And I just panicked because I felt like I missed a memo that she's going to be moving.

She just says, "I'm going to miss this class." So I said, "Where are you going?" And she said, "No, no, I'm just thinking about later on when I don't have this class anymore."

Oh my gosh, just how for a teenager she's just to think ahead of time that this class will be over, and she just wants, that she's going to miss it.

So that just means so much to me, more than any test scores, anything, because that's the idea of loving and embracing mathematics, that we're all here together and having a great time.

[00:12:18] Ana Torres: So do you feel that this health benefit is for teachers as well as students?

[00:12:24] Fawn Nguyen: Absolutely. I mean, we feed on each other.

[00:12:27] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:12:27] Fawn Nguyen: When the kids are enjoying the class, we enjoy teaching, and yeah, that's the relationship we want with math, with students. And it's healthy, and it just gets better from there.

[00:12:37] Ana Torres: I'm thinking about all the educators who want their students to feel valuable in math classes, such as the two examples that you gave.

What is the best place to start, Fawn, for folks who are like, "Where do I begin?" in these unique approaches that Fawn is talking about. And it may be not as unique as we think they are.

[00:12:54] Fawn Nguyen: No, no, this is starting to be more common. I just wish it would happen actually in high school, which is number talks. Number talks doesn't take up a whole lot of time.

[00:13:03] Ana Torres: Number talks. Explain that.

[00:13:05] Fawn Nguyen: It's mental math done regularly. To be better at anything, we need to do it regularly. And so, it's mental math done as a warm-up routine. And when you're forced to calculate mentally, you have to decompose numbers and find flexible strategies, and make the math work without a pencil. Over time, number talks will build number sense and fluency.

[00:13:28] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:13:29] Fawn Nguyen: But the magic of it is sharing of those strategies. I mean, when you're doing mental math, you've got your own strategy. But right after, you get to talk to a classmate, and you share your strategies with the whole class.

And that strategy, that's so nice when that's Ana's strategy, that's Martin's strategy. Now these strategies have names. Kids remember who came up with that. So kids realize there are multiple ways to get an answer, and suddenly the conversation just opens up.

So number talks is one. I mentioned visual patterns already. And another one that's doable that, to start is, give the students the answer. And ask them, "How would you get this answer?" Those are the three easier entry points.

I can't get my kids to talk before, and now it's we've got to move on to something else. Yeah. The number talks is just a warm-up routine, but when it takes longer than I had planned, I have to stop and move on, I mean, secretly I'm really happy.

[00:14:25] Ana Torres: Right, 'cause the kids are engaged with it. And I like how you mentioned that all three of these, the number talks, the visual patterns, and here's the answer, what's the solution, are great entry points. Meaning this could be, this is K-12. Right?

[00:14:41] Fawn Nguyen: I wish it would be K-12. It needs to be K-12.

[00:14:42] Ana Torres: It should be K-12. Right?

[00:14:44] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah, it should be K-12, because yeah, numbers doesn't stop being flexible, just different strategies. Yeah.

[00:14:50] Ana Torres: And also having students share, meaning you and I weren't taught that way. It was memorize your multiplication table. Memorize, memorize, memorize, and we never got to talk about our learning.

[00:15:02] Fawn Nguyen: No.

[00:15:02] Ana Torres: And so I appreciate that you are bringing that up to the forefront of, and we've had other guests that have talked about that. Children should be talking about their math thinking. Right?

[00:15:14] Fawn Nguyen: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:15:15] Ana Torres: So that's very powerful. And I see that you're smiling 'cause you weren't able to do that. You didn't do that often.

[00:15:20] Fawn Nguyen: No. And now, I just want to share. And I truly believe it serves them in the long run.

[00:15:27] Ana Torres: So those are three examples of some entry points that any educator could use. Right? Yeah. What else can educators do, Fawn?

[00:15:36] Fawn Nguyen: Well, be a learner. Be a learner. I actually get most excited when, well, I'm not sure what the kids will say.

The best part is like, ah, when they surprise you. So genuinely listen. I heard this phrase from Marilyn Burns. She said, "We normally say listen with curiosity." Okay. However, she added, "Listen with curiosity and generosity." I love that.

[00:16:04] Ana Torres: That's a nice, that's a nice reframe.

[00:16:07] Fawn Nguyen: Right. Yeah. And I turn that into, "You're not just listening with open ears. You're listening with open heart."

[00:16:13] Ana Torres: Well, because then you're genuinely, authentically open. Right?

[00:16:17] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. Right.

[00:16:17] Ana Torres: I think a big fear of teachers, including me when I first started out, is not having all the answers, Fawn, 'cause we are supposed to be the experts.

So what you're saying could probably make someone feel anxious, like, "But I'm supposed to prepare and have everything prepared for that advanced learner or that learner that needs that extra support."

What would you say to an educator that's, "I love what you're saying, Fawn, but how can I anticipate what I may not be able to anticipate?"

'Cause you're coming from the angle, "I really enjoy math and I like teaching math." What about a teacher who's like, "Ooh, I'm self-contained and this is one of those subjects that I teach"?

[00:17:00] Fawn Nguyen: Well, honestly, we do have to build our capacity. We absolutely have to build our capacity in content, not just in pedagogy, but in content. So those need to be offered because it's true.

We do need to know enough mathematics, so we owe it to the students to do that. We have to be prepared. And it takes training. It takes training. That's teacher prep. That's part of what I love to do, is to build teachers' capacity, because I had to build it, most of it, on my own, because mine was so shallow. I had to dig in and just learn more and more, whatever. So I love opportunities where I can learn with other teachers.

[00:17:35] Ana Torres: I know you're a huge proponent of really having educators look at the benefits of watching other teachers. Such a big part of our profession that unfortunately we don't get enough time to do.

I remember during COVID, it's like, "Ana, we're in COVID, and you're going to have to teach eighth-grade math." I was like, "Ana's never taught eighth-grade math." And I had to literally teach it to myself. But I did have a colleague who luckily we were able to Zoom with each other, and I was able to watch her before I was able to actually do my lessons.

And when I tell you, such a huge benefit watching our colleagues and watching other teachers. Wouldn't you say that?

[00:18:18] Fawn Nguyen: Absolutely. One of the best things, really, one of the best things we can do is to watch each other. And I don't mean in a formal observation. Because when teachers hear the word observation, it's just scary, somebody coming in with a clipboard and a checklist kind of way. I mean genuinely just sitting in a colleague's classroom just to see what's possible.

And it's important that teachers agree on just one or two things prior to the observation: "Watch how I respond when a kid gives a wrong answer, or notice how long I wait after asking a question." So this makes the debrief conversation way more useful than, "Oh, that was great."

[00:18:55] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:18:55] Fawn Nguyen: And the reason teachers never observe each other I hear a lot is scheduling. "We don't have enough time." And whenever we come up to something that makes us... I just say remove it. I don't know how else to say it, Ana. People say, "Well, we don't have this. We don't have that. We don't have time." My response to "I don't have time" is make the time.

[00:19:15] Ana Torres: Make the time.

[00:19:16] Fawn Nguyen: You make the time.

[00:19:17] Ana Torres: I think anything that is worth doing, we prioritize.

[00:19:20] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:19:21] Ana Torres: And I think something that is lacking in our profession is we need to continue to develop and build capacity in ourselves.

[00:19:30] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. For sure.

[00:19:31] Ana Torres: And we do that by watching our colleagues that do it well.

[00:19:34] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. And this is committing, as in scheduling into the calendar. Commit to second period every Thursday, every month. But it's in our calendar, it will happen, and nothing will disrupt that kind of thing.

And also, I want to say, other professionals observe their colleagues all the time. Athletes watch films constantly. But teachers, for some reason, we close the door, we do our thing, and hope for the best.

And to me, that's so wild because we are literally professionals whose entire job is to communicate and connect. We almost never get to do that. So experiencing that and observing that, it will click way more than a PD or a book will ever do.

So it's like, "Oh, that's what that looks like. I can do that."

[00:20:19] Ana Torres: Correct. And don't even get me started about PD. We have three-hour PDs where we're expected to sit, just sit and get, where it's not the best practice for our students. So that's a whole other topic and a whole other TED Talk.

[00:20:33] Fawn Nguyen: And speaking of PD, I was just thinking about staff meetings. I've been encouraging schools to have a number talk to all the whole staff. A number talk at the beginning, five, ten minutes, and it might be the best five, ten minutes of the whole staff, the whole meeting. Teachers can take turns facilitating number talks across the board for students and teachers. There you go.

[00:20:54] Ana Torres: Teachers should experience that.

[00:20:56] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah.

[00:20:57] Ana Torres: Now, Fawn, you started to talk about giving advice for supporting discourse, because that can also be something that teachers are a little afraid of when there's too much talking, like, how do I get kids back on track? So what advice do you have for supporting that discourse in a math classroom?

[00:21:19] Fawn Nguyen: Well, for sure it doesn't happen on its own. Many of us didn't experience it, so it won't just be natural, so it has to be intentional. It has to be built into the lesson with these structures: "notice and wonder," think-pair-share, I'm just tossing out a few, card sorts, gallery walks.

And I say this on permanent repeat, which is, "Say more about that," encouraging kids to talk.

[00:21:43] Ana Torres: Beautiful. Yes.

[00:21:44] Fawn Nguyen: Don't come in with the answer key in your head and just listening for, "Oh, did the kid give me what I was thinking?" No, genuinely open heart and open ear and listen...

[00:21:53] Ana Torres: Open heart. Yes.

[00:21:54] Fawn Nguyen: And the five practices, step one is to anticipate. So be ready with some questions to push their thinking. We have to do that. And then it seems like the hardest part for many teachers. It's not hard for... I'm so used to this and I'm mean, I guess. But you have to be... The teacher...

[00:22:12] Ana Torres: You've been doing it longer. You've been doing it longer, Fawn. That's why.

[00:22:15] Fawn Nguyen: The teacher has to become the least mathematically helpful person in the room.

[00:22:20] Ana Torres: It sounds like from what you've seen or what you've experienced, this is tough for teachers.

[00:22:25] Fawn Nguyen: Oh, it's tough. You know why? 'Cause teachers are very helpful.

[00:22:28] Ana Torres: Isn't that the profession?

[00:22:30] Fawn Nguyen: And remember also that when we disrupt, because by helping them, we're actually disrupting their sense-making, when we jump in with too much scaffolding or too much help, we literally just shut that channel off of just trying to build sense. Reasoning, and build reasoning takes time.

They need to make the mistakes and walk through that. So I think of myself whenever I'm walking around, I feel like I just have this giant question mark on my head. It just is, yeah. So Ms. Nguyen is coming, and she's not coming with an answer. She's coming with a question.

[00:23:06] Ana Torres: Oh, I love that. Yeah.

[00:23:07] Fawn Nguyen: Again, something I say often, which is I think of teaching is knowing when to ask questions and what to ask of the students. It's about asking questions.

[00:23:17] Ana Torres: But like you said, when to ask them and what to ask. Right?

[00:23:22] Fawn Nguyen: What to ask, yep.

[00:23:23] Ana Torres: Well, the beautiful thing about having Fawn Nguyen, the director of STEM initiatives, on this particular episode is she's my colleague. And so, we both work at Amplify, and you are very familiar with Amplify Desmos Math.

In what ways does Amplify Desmos Math support the work of making all students feel valuable?

[00:23:48] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. I love this that our younger students start every unit with the unit story, that the math is woven right into the lives of the characters that kids actually get to know. And these same characters keep coming up throughout the lessons. It's not just a cute feature. It's intentional. It's saying to kids from the very beginning that math lives in their world.

[00:24:11] Ana Torres: Mm. So unit stories allowing those students to really feel like math in their lives. Right?

[00:24:18] Fawn Nguyen: Right.

[00:24:19] Ana Torres: Anything else?

[00:24:20] Fawn Nguyen: That was for our younger kids. But our warm-ups, I'll just start there, are so carefully designed to invite students into the conversation, because that's how a lesson starts, with a warm-up before the heavy lifting starts. It really is an invitation, whether it's a "which one doesn't belong" or an estimation task.

I love the estimations where you get feedback of how close you got. And just recently, I nailed an angle estimation once, and I was genuinely just high-fiving myself and alone at the computer.

There was one that had nine different shapes, a three by three, and the question was, "Click all the shapes that you would describe as round." It's that it's asking me...

[00:25:04] Ana Torres: That you would describe ...

[00:25:04] Fawn Nguyen: That you would describe as round, and then have a conversation about it. Just little things like that, just so thoughtful.

Oh, I want to go back and mention about the teachers being helpful. I want to add, because this happens at workshops, too.

Teachers will ask me, "Did I get it right?" Students ask it all the time. They're doing the math is... And I'm asking teachers, and I'm asking everybody, do not tell them yes or no. You are not the answer key. What you say instead is, "You tell me." And then pretty soon they'll know to stop asking pretty quickly.

So instead of asking you, 'cause you're not going to say anything, they'll start checking their own work. They check with their classmates. They'll figure it out themselves. I'm not the answer key. You go ahead and do it backward, forward, upside down.

[00:25:51] Ana Torres: Experience how the students would experience it, because I think that's human nature. I think we're programmed in that way.

[00:25:57] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah, yeah. We want that confirmation. And when that confirmation should be coming from self.

[00:26:02] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:26:02] Fawn Nguyen: Immediately, actually, if anything, it promotes, like, "I'll try and solve another way, working it backwards. I think this is the answer. I'm going to plug it back in and see if it comes out."

[00:26:12] Ana Torres: And that goes back to what you mentioned about just promoting that curiosity as well.

And you mentioned with Amplify Desmos Math, and how it makes students feel valuable. You mentioned those unit stories, and then the warm-ups as well. Why do you think these are so valuable?

[00:26:31] Fawn Nguyen: That there are no right and wrong, and they can share with a classmate.

We want to promote them sharing it. So it's just having voice, having voice in the classroom.

[00:26:39] Ana Torres: So more open-ended responses. Right? And that promotes discussion, does it?

[00:26:44] Fawn Nguyen: Correct. Yes.

[00:26:47] Ana Torres: As you can tell, Fawn is super just excited and loves Amplify Desmos Math.

[00:26:52] Fawn Nguyen: I do, I do ...

[00:26:53] Ana Torres: I want you to give us an example of your favorite lesson where there can be multiple solutions. What's your favorite lesson, Fawn?

[00:27:02] Fawn Nguyen: Now, that's like asking who's my favorite student, or who's my favorite child out of the three. And that one I have an answer to.

Here's my little pushback on that question. And actually, I recently blogged about a random lesson because I believe in our Amplify Desmos Math so much, so much that it's not about this particular magical lesson or that favorite or this ...

Here's the thing. It's not about finding the particular lesson. Multiple pathways aren't a special feature. It happens in mathematics. It's available in almost any lesson if you know what to look for, or more importantly, what to ask. So that's why I don't want us to think about a particular, this snazzy lesson, whether it's in print or digital. There's just so many, but at the same time, it's everywhere. That's a comfort.

[00:28:01] Ana Torres: Okay. You're saying that it is embedded.

[00:28:03] Fawn Nguyen: It's embedded, exactly. It's mathematics. It's just how we think, because the multiple strategies, if I just said, "How do you add these two numbers?" Or, "How do you solve this equation?" I, myself, for example, I draw diagrams a lot.

And I genuinely, when I first started, did not realize how rare that teachers use this approach, because to me, it just feels efficient and it's natural. It's a lot easier than writing equations and setting up anything formal, but that's the point. It's my way.

It's just a way. It's not the way.

And we said earlier that we want to learn with the students and from the students, and that's genuinely where we're going to get that. I'm really curious about how my students make sense of things because that's how they learn. So I'm, selfishly, benefiting myself because I get to learn from my kids, and that's so fascinating.

[00:28:59] Ana Torres: Isn't it, though? To watch students come up with things like you said, that you've never thought of can be uncomfortable, but also be fascinating and exciting...

[00:29:09] Fawn Nguyen: It's liberating. It's, I mean, I thank them profusely because I genuinely just gain something. It just blows my mind.

[00:29:16] Ana Torres: That's what happens, like you said, when we're learning alongside them.

So let's go back to the interactivity now. What are some ways that Amplify Desmos Math supports students interacting with each other and learning from each other, Fawn?

[00:29:32] Fawn Nguyen: Right. There's so many ways. One of them is the five practices for discourse are embedded right into our teacher facilitation moves.

We also have the framework that parallels that, which is our "launch, monitor, and connect."

We have UDL principles woven throughout. That's so important. Opening up the task, that we, I keep saying, giving students multiple ways to engage, multiple ways to connect with the math, and then multiple ways to respond.

We have instructional routines, things that happen regularly throughout, so it's familiar, and math language routines.

[00:30:09] Ana Torres: And routines are so important. Right, Fawn?

[00:30:12] Fawn Nguyen: Right. Because we take, yeah, all that, how do we do this? No, it's already a routine. It's familiar. Now we can focus our brain cells on the mathematics.

We have in-the-moment differentiation, as also after the lesson, so the heavy lift is done, and the structures are there, but we still need teachers. And this is why I love teachers, and I honor teachers so much. They have to bring that lesson to life.

[00:30:36] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:30:36] Fawn Nguyen: Because no matter how well the lesson is written, the army of people at Amplify that work so hard on these wonderful lessons, it just won't come to life. We need the teachers, because the writers don't know your students the way that you do.

[00:30:50] Ana Torres: Exactly. So the art of teaching is still very, very, very valuable.

[00:30:57] Fawn Nguyen: And I think of it like, I love to cook, and I think of it like buying the best-selling cookbook. It's already a bestseller, so it's good. Like a good curriculum, it's already good. We know that.

The ingredients are there, the instructions are there, but you still have to cook the thing. You still have to make it your own. You have to consider allergies, special diets to consider.

[00:31:18] Ana Torres: And you're going to bring as a cook or as a teacher, you're going to bring your own flavor to things. Right?

[00:31:23] Fawn Nguyen: Right. Right. Yeah.

[00:31:24] Ana Torres: Anything else that you want to share about Amplify Desmos Math?

[00:31:28] Fawn Nguyen: There's a lot I appreciate, and I just mentioned those, but the thing that matters most to me, actually is the sequencing of the questions. Yeah, I'm critical. I have this critical lens with how lessons are developed.

So for Amplify, I'm impressed. I'm grateful. From the warm-up all the way through the synthesis, it is good, Ana. It's good storytelling. It builds thoughtfully with two things in mind: the mathematics and the learner. So every question is like those two are at center.

It tries to build conceptual understanding before procedural fluency, and then they go alongside each other after that, and then leading to practice questions that build on one another, the variation from one question to another, just, yeah, I'm very mindful of that. 'Cause ultimately, it's down to the lesson.

[00:32:19] Ana Torres: It is.

[00:32:19] Fawn Nguyen: How is it sequenced? What is being asked of the students from the first question to the last question? How does it build? And to me, it's just great storytelling.

[00:32:27] Ana Torres: Unfortunately, we're coming to the close here. Is there anything, any final advice you'd like to share with the Beyond My Years listeners today?

[00:32:38] Fawn Nguyen: We say this all the time, so I just want to reiterate it, to build genuine rapport with your students. The reason is they need to see us human because not all the days will be perfect. And when it doesn't go well, it doesn't have to feel like a catastrophe. It's just a Tuesday, didn't go well.

And so the more human we can make ourselves, it makes it so that we can connect in genuine ways so that... 'cause it is, at the end of the day, it's more about the mathematics. It's about the relationship. It's about we're humans. We want to enjoy this journey together.

[00:33:12] Ana Torres: But you said build genuine rapport.

[00:33:15] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. Right.

[00:33:15] Ana Torres: Has to be from the heart, as you've mentioned. Yes?

[00:33:18] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. This is not something you script. This is just, I mean, of course, professional boundaries. Don't overshare.

[00:33:25] Ana Torres: Absolutely. Right, right.

[00:33:27] Fawn Nguyen: God forbid. Yeah. But teach in a way that makes you look forward to going back the next day to pick up the conversation, to ask more questions, see where it goes, because we have to thrive.

With teaching, we talk a lot about just surviving, where I barely survive. It can be better than that. We can work together. We can help each other so that we're... We talk about thriving.

We talk about, "I can't wait, because we don't have to teach.' I am going to repeat something that somebody just picked up that I didn't realize I said it, but I'm glad I said it 'cause I meant it. I said, "We don't have to teach. We get to teach."

[00:34:03] Ana Torres: We get to, yeah.

[00:34:04] Fawn Nguyen: It's such an honorable profession.

[00:34:06] Ana Torres: It so is. I honor it, honor it, honor it. So building rapport, building genuine rapport. Is there anything else?

[00:34:13] Fawn Nguyen: And teach in a way that makes you want to come back.

[00:34:16] Ana Torres: Yes, meaning like teach in a way where tomorrow's a new day and you're excited about teaching those students.

Now, Fawn, it's rapid-fire wisdom nuggets segment. I wish I had the pew, pew, pew, pew.

If you weren't an educator, Fawn, what would you do for work?

[00:34:32] Fawn Nguyen: I want to be interior designer or own a nursery, I love flowers and plants, or a winery. The winery seems really snooty, but I want...

[00:34:39] Ana Torres: Yeah, I could see the winery.

What's the strangest item you had in your classroom back in the day, Fawn?

[00:34:48] Fawn Nguyen: My middle schoolers, and I mean that in the most endearing way possible. They are the strangest creatures. At the same time, they're truly the best group of humans on the planet. I miss them horribly.

[00:35:01] Ana Torres: Now, Fawn, on tough days, what truly reminds you of why you're passionate about education?

[00:35:08] Fawn Nguyen: Well, I tell my students and I tell my own three children this, is to never give up. So when it gets hard, I hear my own words coming back to me, and I remind myself that the tough days are actually when I'm most needed.

[00:35:22] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:35:22] Fawn Nguyen: And I knew going in that this wouldn't be easy. So on those days, it's just a matter of choosing my battles, keeping focus on the students, and trusting that things will fall into place.

[00:35:33] Ana Torres: Because honestly, they believe it will. The students believe everything's going to be fine.

And your last question, and you've done this before, we want to give you a chance to shout out a school or a district that's close to your heart.

[00:35:46] Fawn Nguyen: Yeah. Mupu, M-U-P-U, Mupu School District in Santa Paula, California. It's a tiny one-school, K-8 district, similar to Mesa Union, where I taught for a bunch of years. And I just got to see three of their teachers again at our most recent UCSB math training.

It's this small district, really special. Everyone knows every kid, so I have a soft spot for them. Go Mupu.

[00:36:13] Ana Torres: Mupu in Calif... Go Mupu in California.

Well, Fawn, you've been on Season 1, Season 2, Season 3. Hope to see you Season 4.

[00:36:24] Fawn Nguyen: Oh, don't you dare.

[00:36:25] Ana Torres: So appreciate, so appreciate your time.

[00:36:27] Fawn Nguyen: Thank you so much. It's such an honor and always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

[00:36:31] Ana Torres: Thank you, Fawn.

That was Fawn Nguyen, director of STEM Initiatives at Amplify. We'll have a link to her previous appearances and her Substack in the show notes. We'll also have links to learn more about Amplify Desmos Math.

Now let's welcome back our Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher Eric Cross.

Well, Classroom Insider Eric Cross is back with us.

[00:36:57] Eric Cross: You know what I love about the Fawn interviews is that she says the quiet parts out loud. She really talks about the real challenges in education. I really appreciated that.

[00:37:05] Ana Torres: Yeah. Whenever I talk to Fawn, exactly what you said, it's when you see that comic strip with that little speech bubble and it says what you want to say.

Let's dive right in. What was your first takeaway?

[00:37:18] Eric Cross: The moment that stuck out with me first in this conversation is when she talked about math trauma.

[00:37:23] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:37:24] Eric Cross: What made it so useful is it wasn't that math was the problem, it was a design problem.

[00:37:28] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:37:29] Eric Cross: We collapsed an entire subject, math, down into right answers and wrong answers, and some kids only ever land on the wrong side of that line.

And it's not just relevant to math, like when a kid says, "I hate reading," usually it isn't telling you about books. They're telling you about that the round robin in third grade, or when they were pulled out of class or the essay that was full of red ink.

And so, when a student announces their identity like that, there's usually a scar with a story behind it. And so the story is almost always about how we define success too narrowly and too early. It's a really short window of what success is, and there's a lot of research that builds on this. Anxiety, right? It's a big thing.

[00:38:13] Ana Torres: Yes. It's a real thing.

[00:38:15] Eric Cross: We have to embrace as a society that this isn't just about emotions. There's actual brain science that connects to this and leads to performance. So the anxious kid who's solving a problem, when they're anxious, they're literally consuming their working memory, what they need to be able to do the problem, so the anxious kid will have less brain power available.

[00:38:35] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:38:35] Eric Cross: If you think about high-stakes tests and things like that, and it's a cycle. So if you have a bad experience, then that creates anxiety.

[00:38:43] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:38:43] Eric Cross: And then the anxiety creates... What do we do when we're anxious? We avoid. So now you have avoidance.

[00:38:47] Ana Torres: Avoid it, exactly.

[00:38:48] Eric Cross: And then when you have avoidance, now you have lower performance, which confirms the story, the narrative that the kid is already telling themselves.

And we all can relate to this. Maybe it's not math, but Ana, you know what this is like with other subjects.

[00:39:00] Ana Torres: I do. I do.

[00:39:02] Eric Cross: And so the move, really, and what Fawn was saying is we have to widen the definition of success, I think. Instead of asking for the answer, she said, "Give kids the answer and ask how would you get there?" Oh, it was so good.

[00:39:14] Ana Torres: Yes. Wasn't that good?

[00:39:16] Eric Cross: So good, because suddenly there's nothing to be wrong about.

[00:39:19] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:39:20] Eric Cross: It's all about the thinking.

[00:39:22] Ana Torres: It's the thinking behind how you got the answer, and that's what we should really be looking for.

I love that you are even adding the layer of yes, there's that trauma piece, but it starts with how we define success because we are really having children identify themselves as good or bad in something.

And I don't think as teachers that is something that we really want to be part of.

[00:39:49] Eric Cross: Exactly, and if we miss, if we ignore that part of teaching, if we ignore that reality that kids are coming to our classroom with those feelings, we're missing on a huge part of what impacts a student's learning. So if we don't address it and work to fix it, then we're not going to get the best performance out of our students.

And every subject has a version of this. Like in English, celebrating the revision, not the final draft. And then name the strategy after the kid who came up with it, like when they come up with their own ideas and things like that.

And so when success is widened, more students are going to be able to walk into it, and we get what we ultimately want, which is teaching our students how to think, not just deliver the right answers.

[00:40:29] Ana Torres: Exactly. Exactly.

Ooh, that was a lot. And Fawn always gives us a lot to chew on, doesn't she?

[00:40:36] Eric Cross: She does.

[00:40:37] Ana Torres: So what was your second takeaway, Eric?

[00:40:40] Eric Cross: The second takeaway I feel is a little bit clickbaity if I was going to put this as an article. It's counterintuitive, but it's becoming the least helpful person in the room.

[00:40:49] Ana Torres: Right, right.

[00:40:50] Eric Cross: And she said her goal was to be the least mathematically helpful person in the room because every time we swoop in with a hint or rescue, we're not helping the kid make sense of things. We're interrupting their sense-making process.

[00:41:02] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:41:03] Eric Cross: We're taking thinking away from them, and we're doing it ourselves. And the message to the kids was "Ms. Nguyen is coming over not with an answer, but a question."

I embodied this a few years ago. My students would ask me a question. I go, "That's a great question. Let me know what you come up with." They'd look at me like all quizzically. And we also have to be patient because if you're teaching older students, later grades, you have to recognize that this isn't always going to be an easy transition for them.

[00:41:31] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:41:31] Eric Cross: If you go from a teacher who leads with inquiry and you push back because they've been conditioned many times to expect the teacher just to give the right answer.

[00:41:38] Ana Torres: You mentioned that it's clickbaity, but it is okay to be the least helpful person in the room in the sense of let them come up with their own thinking around things, and let them be able to process that with other students.

We don't give students enough time to really think on their own and also work with each other about how they come up with the ideas that they come up with. And so I had to learn that as a teacher in the beginning, especially because I never wanted students to feel like I felt about math.

But it was hard for me, Eric, because it's hard to see students struggle or not actually even have the language to use in order to tell you what they're thinking. And so even as adults, we have to say, "I have to be comfortable with some of the uncomfortableness going on around me." Right?

[00:42:28] Eric Cross: Exactly, and tthere's research that supports this. We know that students who wrestle with problems before instruction, they outperform students who got all the scaffolding up front.

So when we over-scaffold things and we give them supports, well-intentioned, they don't perform as well because they're not building that sense to make it on their own. And so even simple things like holding silence longer than three seconds when you ask a question will increase student responses.

Other students want to feed the answer, and I have to make that a teachable moment and let students know, "Hey, they're building a new neural pathway. They're accessing information. There's no rush. We're okay."

[00:43:03] Ana Torres: You want to be able to think on your own and problem-solve on your own, so I really appreciated that she literally stated it that way. Learn to become the least helpful person in the room.

And if I were still in the classroom, I would walk around with that question mark. I want to know about what you're thinking, really being that facilitator in the room.

[00:43:24] Eric Cross: Exactly.

[00:43:25] Ana Torres: So what is your third takeaway?

[00:43:27] Eric Cross: The third one, and I really thought about my elementary school teachers with this one 'cause having to teach so many different subjects that our anxieties are contagious, especially if you have math anxiety, and so it's important to include adults in the intervention.

And so, she says something that we usually keep private, and a lot of teachers carry math anxiety themselves. Say, I know this for science. We did a whole season on science as the underdog, right? And especially in elementary school.

[00:43:51] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:43:51] Eric Cross: And we know it gets pushed away for various reasons. One, it's not tested as often in elementary. And two, people have anxiety around science. Well, it's very true around math, and that is tested.

In K-8, especially elementary, where you teach all the subjects, it's silly to pretend that we love every science equally. Look, I'm a science teacher. I don't love every science. I don't even love every unit equally. I have my favorites.

[00:44:11] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:44:12] Eric Cross: And some teachers dread the math block of teaching, and that enthusiasm cuts both ways. When you have it, it's great, and when you don't, they sense that, too.

So our relationship to a subject becomes part of the curriculum. Whether we put it in our lesson plan or not, it's just there because we're humans and we're there.

So Fawn talked about this with adults. Open up your staff meetings. Five-minute thinking routine. Do a numbers talk. Do notice-and-wonders together about a poem or a photo or a graph. Do the things that you're asking students to do, but do it collectively with each other, and let adults experience being a learner.

And when I've been in situations like that, I've really gotten value from it. Before I was a teacher, I worked in finance, and they would have us do role-playing with clients all of the time, and it was so uncomfortable, but when we got into the real situation, it made it easier.

And what did she bring up? She talked about this with professionals, athletes. They watch tape.

[00:45:11] Ana Torres: Yeah.

[00:45:11] Eric Cross: They watch plays over and over. Surgeons watch other surgeons. We should be able to also get into each other's classrooms and watch each other. And she, again, I love this, she pushed back before anybody said, "Oh, no, I don't have time."

And she's like, "Make time."

[00:45:27] Ana Torres: Oh, right. Right? Oh, yeah. Well, you make time for what's important.

[00:45:31] Eric Cross: Make time. I love that. Oh.

[00:45:33] Ana Torres: Five minutes in a staff meeting where you get to truly experience what the students will experience is so valuable. We can presume to know what they feel, but to actually walk through those routines and experience that.

And I love that she pushed back and said, "There's always time." And I'm a strong believer of we make time for what is important.

[00:45:56] Eric Cross: Yes. Yes.

[00:45:57] Ana Torres: And I'm a former mentor and master teacher, and I loved going in classrooms and observing teachers that were good at their craft. I love doing that, and I love to be observed as well. I love getting feedback and really reflecting on the practice.

[00:46:13] Eric Cross: I think the line that Fawn ended with just reframed the whole job, and she says that, "We don't have to teach. We get to teach." And that quote was really powerful for me.

And so when her students say, and I've experienced this as a teacher, and I could totally relate to the feeling that she described, "I'm not good at math, but this is my favorite class."

That's what a healing relationship sounds like with a subject. And all of us could be that teacher for that kid.

[00:46:40] Ana Torres: Thank you for sharing that with us, Eric.

And so as always, great talking with you. Let's do it again.

[00:46:47] Eric Cross: Look forward to it. Thanks, Ana.

[00:46:50] Ana Torres: Thanks for listening to Beyond My Years from Amplify. We're all about supporting educators, and we've got more resources and episodes linked in the show notes to help empower you in the math classroom.

Next on Beyond My Years, Eric and I will be joined by math educators from around the country who will discuss strategies for being more of a facilitator in the classroom.

[00:47:12] Jeffrey Mashbitz: To me, it's more important now that kids can think and sit with a problem.

[00:47:17] Amy Siegmundt: You get those kids that are not always sharing to find their confidence and their voice.

[00:47:21] Ana Torres: That's next time. I'm your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolin.

Until next time, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.