23. Discover the Power of Your Story: Interview with Niels Kwakernaak on Writing and Legacy

Documenting your experiences can help you process life and leave a lasting legacy for future generations. In this episode of Courageous Retirement, you will learn how to take your personal stories to the next level so you can leave a profound impact by writing them. 

Host Vona Johnson welcomes special guest Niels Kwakernaak to explore the significance of sharing personal stories. They discuss how Niels provides practical tips on writing and storytelling, emphasizing the therapeutic benefits and potential for deeper self-understanding through writing. They also demonstrate the value of aligning one's storytelling with personal faith and authenticity. 

You will walk away with a professional editor's top tips on writing your stories. This episode offers valuable insights and inspiration to capture your life's journey for future generations, whether you consider yourself a writer or not.

00:00 Introduction: The Power of Your Story
00:44 Meet Niels Kwakernaak: A Journey to Storytelling
02:16 The Importance of Writing Your Story
04:32 Techniques for Effective Storytelling
07:19 Personal Reflections and Writing Tips
11:28 Niels' Path to Coaching and Editing
20:08 Unlocking Your Stories: Practical Tips
27:00 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
30:47 Conclusion: Engage Your Faith and Finish Well

Learn more about Niels at https://yourbeststory.net/

Quotes:
" It wouldn't be the first time somebody was just free writing and figured out like, 'Hey, wait a second. I do have something to say!'" Niels Kwakernaak

" You want to lure the reader in, in such a way that they are immediately in the middle of something so that they want to know what's coming next." Niels Kwakernaak

Niel's tips for unlocking stories:*
1. Go for a walk
2. Free Write
3. Draw a map of the area
*Be sure to listen beginning at the 20-minute mark for details.

Watch the video here.

Thank you for stopping by today! Remember to Engage Your Faith and Live Your More as you reap the benefits of Courageous Retirement!

To watch the video, check out my YouTube Channel!

Learn more about the show, author Vona Johnson, and more at CourageousRetirement.com!

Schedule a free 15 minute Your Path to More call with Vona.

Transcript

Vona Johnson: 0:00

Do you have a story to tell? In today's episode, my guest, Niels Kwakernaak and I are going to uncover why your story matters not just for you. But for future generations, if you've ever felt the nudge to share your personal experiences, this conversation can be your guidepost.

0:19

be sure to stay to the end where Niels shares his number one tip for writing your stories.

Vona Johnson: 0:25

Do you fear what lies beyond retirement? What if it's a gateway to a life filled with purpose, meaning, and adventure rather than an end? Discover peace and fulfillment as you boldly enter this new chapter in Courageous Retirement, a Christian podcast. I'm your host, author and coach, Vona Johnson. Let's get started. I am excited to have this conversation today because we all have a story in us. I mean, just in the few minutes leading up to this conversation, Niels and I talked about some of our backstories and how we met our spouses and things like that. So we all have a story somewhere to tell, but we don't all realize how important it is to get that out. When I met Niels and we started having this conversation, I realized that this is something, even if you're sitting here listening to this. And you're thinking, ah, I'm not an author. I don't like to write. I can't write. I want you to stay with us today because I think this is something that could really change the way that you look at your life and your legacy. Niels, let's jump in. First of all, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here today. Thank you. All the way from the other side of the world. How amazing is our technology that we can have a conversation when we're on opposite ends of the world?

Niels Kwakernaak: 1:41

Yeah. The sun has just come up there and it's soon gonna go down here, so it's, we're really on different sides of the world. Yeah.

Vona Johnson: 1:50

Niels and I met in a, C-suite for Christ, gathering one day. And because we both write or are authors, we connected and there are just so many interesting things to talk about, you know, where you're from. I have so many questions and I've had the opportunity to ask some of those, but I just. Really, really love this idea of writing our story. Niels will you tell us why is it important that we get our story written and do it in a way that will have meaning for folks?

Niels Kwakernaak: 2:25

Well, first of all, why we would write it is we want to leave a legacy to the people who come after us, our children, our grandchildren. We want to. Especially when you, are retired, you have the time to write these things down and there might come a time that you are not there anymore. And I know how precious it is to have something. Then my mother passed away, a few years ago, and I still have some, some written works by, by her hand, you know? And just having that is such a, such a treasure. So I, I can, I. Open it and, and read some of it and hear her voice in my, in my head and discover some of the things that she was thinking. I mean, I have this little book that she wrote when, when, when she was a teenager. Uh, so I hear her voice, but also, some things that, that betrayed is this, this youthfulness still, and it's just such a treasure to have so. Especially nowadays when everything has become email and messages and so we, we are not making, often not making anything lasting anymore. When we write something down, we really put effort into writing this story. Then you can put it into a book or even written by hand. You have something to give. And some way to share, uh, with children and grandchildren or with, if it is a bigger story that, that, that is relevant for more people. You can actually publish it into a, in a real book. But the thing is, if you write for other people and not for yourself, then you have to make sure that it is comprehensible and that it is engaging. Because if, um. If it is very dull or very boring or way too much or whatever, then uh, it is nice maybe to read a little bit now and then to have this voice and this experience of having the person close by. But very few people read the whole thing and, and to go through the entire experience. So that's a matter of, of courtesy. Are you writing for yourself or are you writing for the person who reads it? Are you writing for your reader? And. If you are writing for the reader, then good writing is actually the taking away of obstacles to comprehension and engagement. And there are many things in just normal writing. When you just sit down to write, you are actually putting a lot of obstacles in front of your reader that make it impossible to be really engaged in the story because, well, real storytelling demands, um, uh, planning and demands. Understanding of, of literary devices and that sort of thing. So the question is always, for whom are you writing for yourself or for others? And if you want to write for others, there is a whole lot to learn. And learning this stuff is, is, is, is a lot of fun. I mean, it's, if, if you see your own scenes, uh, um, develop on the page, you, you, you realize that you're working on something special. And learning that whole process is, is great.

Vona Johnson: 5:28

And I mentioned that I've been toying with the idea of writing fiction, but, and I love how what you're saying actually goes right along with the, the gentleman that I've followed along that lines and, and two things. You talked about writing scenes and, and it's important to keep the scene tight, right? You don't mm-hmm. Like you said, you don't wanna just dump everything right there. I love The concept of give them what they need when they need it. You don't start at the beginning. Mm-hmm. And just tell it chronologically. You tell them as it comes up. Is that, I mean, I assume that's kind of part of your process too, right?

Niels Kwakernaak: 6:05

Yeah, yeah. There are different ways of telling a story. Uh, you can start in the middle of the action and then take some backstory, or you can start at the beginning. But it is always important to be very deliberate in every decision that you make. If you start from the very beginning, there has to be something to tell about the beginning. There must be something worth telling. So if you want to start with your birth, uh, the day of the, of your birth, then there better be something going on then, you know. Yeah. For example, I I, I could maybe start with the day of my birth because apparently I was born with my, uh, the umbilical cord a couple of times around my neck. So it was, the midwife, she was under the shower. She couldn't come, so, oh, there was, there was a lot going on that night. So if I would start my story. On the day of my birth, on the night of my birth, and I, I would actually have something to say, right? Whether it is interesting that is for other people to decide, and I might have to talk with an editor about that, but, um, most births are just that, you know, and, and there, there is no action. The point is you want to lure the reader in, in such a way that they are immediately boom, in the middle of something so that they want to know what's gonna come next.

Vona Johnson: 7:18

Yes. I love that, but I'm guessing that most of the people that will be listening to this are thinking, I don't, I don't wanna write a book. That's not a goal of mine. So, I mean, we've already talked about the fact that I. We, we want to write it for that legacy piece. And when you were speaking, it occurred to me that I'm working on a project where, a woman just started her own personal journey. After she had discovered she had dementia, I. And so I'm working with a group, her family's given us permission to actually publish this so that other people can learn from that experience. Mm-hmm. And so that's a, maybe a little bit different than what you're talking about, but I think it brings home the point that I. Those words of hers are precious to not just her family who now can understand what she was going through, but even me, who I have both of my parents with dementia. And just to have that, that insight into what she was going through helps me understand a little better what they're going through. So, like I said, there's always, there's always a benefit. Somewhere. And if God has nudged us towards that. We should Hheed tht. Yeah.

Niels Kwakernaak: 8:34

Yeah, exactly. It can be very redemptive, uh, for, for other people, but also for yourself. I mean, uh, okay. Tell us more about

Vona Johnson: 8:42

that.

Niels Kwakernaak: 8:43

You can, you can, writing can really help you process things, you know, things that, that have been painful to the trauma or certain questions you still have to work through. Writing is actually thinking on paper and really taking the time to think through things can really help clear things up and also really help to, give relief from pain. So even if you, if you have no intentions whatsoever to publish anything, it can be such a good thing for your soul and for your brain, for your mind to, uh, to write these things down. Uh, even, even just in a long hand so that maybe, maybe you have a handwriting that nobody can read. It doesn't matter. It is, it is about putting it down on paper and in a way you entrust it to. To God also, I can write, write in prayer basically. And, and I think, that is it, it has so many benefits for your soul, for your brain, and for your own thinking. I mean, you, you, you use, when you write and structure your thoughts, you're using the, the executive functions of your brain and that really, that that's really healthy to do. Even if you don't want to publish anything, this, it's still a very good thing to do. And sometimes that may lead to the discovery of things that are worth sharing. And so, so it, it wouldn't be the first time that somebody was just free writing and, and, and figures out like, Hey, wait a second. I do have something to say. I have something to tell to share.

Vona Johnson: 10:10

Well, I really like that and I can think of many times when I've had a conversation with a friend who. Something that's been troubling them for some time and at the end of the conversation they'll say something like, I don't know why I just told you that, but I just feel so much better having said it and the way you explained it is, you could get that same benefit from writing it down mm-hmm. Just to process it and you realize that. You can almost like, reflect and realize that you were holding onto things

Niels Kwakernaak: 10:43

I spoke with a therapist once, it might actually be one that I edited a book for. I'm, I'm not entirely certain anymore, but to, the recommendation in that book was to write down, uh, from the place of hurt, write down the traumatic experiences, and then. Burn the paper, you know?

Vona Johnson: 11:02

Yeah, yeah.

Niels Kwakernaak: 11:04

Uh, and, and then that shouldn't be, uh, it's of course a symbolic act, but it's, it's sort of, you burn that thing. You, you don't want that to, to determine anything in your life anymore. So, and that is also the, not only the act of writing there, but also the act of, of burning it. But still, it, it is, it is clear that when you write things down, you loosen it up. You create new space.

Vona Johnson: 11:26

Yeah, I love that. So tell me, Niels, how did you get to this point where you are now helping, I assume you're editing and coaching and I mean, helping people through that whole process. How did you get there? What, what got you started on this path?

Niels Kwakernaak: 11:42

Yeah, yeah. It's somewhat of an unusual job, huh. I've always. Wanted to be a writer. I think there have been times in my life that I wanted to be all kinds of things from, from, I wanna be a famous drummer and I wanted to all kinds of things. But, uh, becoming a writer was something that kept coming back. Yeah. But I guess I never had the confidence that I could do it, until at some point, my hostess in Jerusalem said, Hey, you are very talented. I think you should do a course. And I thought, okay, it's cool. Like you tell me that I'm talented, but do I need to do a course that means that I'm bad, right? Well, not at all. Of course, this is a craft that you have to learn. So I learned there from my hostess that writing is not something you are born with. It is not a talent that you naturally have. Usually it is something you have to learn. So I learned it at the, in, uh, Institute for Writers, and a few years later, when I met Aaliyah, when I came to live in Israel, I got the opportunity to work for an editing company from America. Is working from home. Um, so I, uh, I had to do a test and it was really, really good. So I, I performed very well in that test. And so a few weeks later I worked as an editor and I wanted to be a writer, but okay. Editor is nice too, you know, so why not? Later when I began to get somewhat bored with, agency work, I decided to start for myself. And, and then I got to work on Christian books. And that is actually, let's say, quote unquote coincidental because my stepbrother started a publishing company at the very same moment without our, we, we, we had no idea, you know? So another step stepbrother said, Hey, maybe you can help each other out. Like, oh, okay, why not? So now I've been working for that publisher, for quite a few books already, i, I began to see that many of, many of the books that I worked on from different customers had very similar issues. And I realized that, um, well, an editor works after, you know, once the, once the manuscript is done and editor takes all the mistakes out and tries to fix whatever's broken. But, uh, I realized that many of the errors were. Caused by, uh, mistakes at the beginning of the process. You know, it's, if I could just hop on earlier in the process, I would be able to do much more for the writers. So I began to think, well, maybe I can teach writing, maybe I can coach writers to do it right from the beginning so that once they have their final manuscript that lands on the editor's desk, the editor has to do much less work and that is much cheaper then. Sure. So, uh, yeah, that, that's how I got to coaching and, um, this is what I'm trying to set up. So in the meantime, I'm still mostly editing.

Vona Johnson: 14:44

Okay. Well that's really fascinating. Where were you when I started writing?

Niels Kwakernaak: 14:48

how long ago was that?

Vona Johnson: 14:50

It's funny because I too always wrote. I was writing poems, I was writing my journals. I was, you know, just writing stories for different things. In fact, I started writing my book in around 2020, so five years ago.

Niels Kwakernaak: 15:06

Okay. That's around that time as I was at the University of Washington to study editing. Um, because when I started my own company, I thought, now I want to know, I want to really know how this world works of editing, because when you are working for an agency, you have this, uh, this, this framework that they, that they use, you know, and that's it. Um, so what it is professional editing and you learn quite a lot, but still you have no idea how other companies are doing it. And so I, I, uh, I went to University of Washington to really learn how to edit for, uh, in all kinds of different settings. And so, so by the time you started writing, I, uh. I think I was just finished then. Yeah. So we could have help you out. And

Vona Johnson: 15:49

I worked with a, a company that kind of was a, it was kind of a hybrid between self-publishing and, the traditional publishing path. Definitely was not professionally, edited by someone like you who probably could have really enhanced my book and, you know,

Niels Kwakernaak: 16:07

yeah, that's, that's really it. That's really in, uh, uh, a problem, uh, in publishing nowadays that, um. Publishers, us usually often are not offering really quality editing anymore because it's just, it's just expensive. Right.

Vona Johnson: 16:24

But if

Niels Kwakernaak: 16:24

you want to do that for your own book, uh, then it is not less expensive, but you have to pay it off, uh, from your own pocket, you know?

Vona Johnson: 16:31

Right.

Niels Kwakernaak: 16:32

So this is also actually a reason for me to offer this coaching. Like the coaching also costs money. It's not cheap, but you learn how to prepare your documents in such a way that the editor. Uh, does not have so much work on it anymore, uh, because editing becomes extremely expensive when the, the more necessary it is, the more expensive it also becomes. So, and, and, and the less inclined the writer is to actually hire those services.

Vona Johnson: 17:00

Right.

Niels Kwakernaak: 17:01

So, and that is a problem. The, the, so the worst writers are just publishing without any kind of editing. Uh, and that is a pity because those, it makes really, that these stories sometimes are, are just unreadable. You know, they're, you cannot get engaged by it because it is repetitious. Um, it is long-winded. It is you, you know, the problems.

Vona Johnson: 17:23

Yes. Uh,

Niels Kwakernaak: 17:24

it's also very difficult then to, to find self-published books that are really quality. Like how do you know which books are are good? Because there are so many books published that are actually. Hmm. Difficult to read.

Vona Johnson: 17:38

But I think the point, I think the point is still there, it, you know, whether someone that's listening right now wants to publish and go through that whole process, or if they just wanna get this story down, you know, when you were talking about your mother, or your grandmother had written a story.

Niels Kwakernaak: 17:56

Oh, the who, who passed away?

Vona Johnson: 17:57

Yeah.

Niels Kwakernaak: 17:58

Okay. It was not a story, it was just a journal.

Vona Johnson: 18:00

Okay. Well, but similar, because I have, and it's really cool. If I'd have known we were gonna go here, I would've grabbed it. But my grandmother did just like a little notebook. It's about this big. And when, back in the twenties. She and a girlfriend took her model A and traveled from South Dakota to California. Now, back then, two women. That was unheard of for them to take off and travel on their own. I mean, literally, she dressed as a man so that they could do this without attention drawn to them but she kept in this little notebook. She kept track of where they were every day, what they were doing. And that little notebook is priceless to me. Um, absolutely. Yeah. In fact, I wanna do that trip someday and, and we'd like to even figure out a way of like publishing a book around that story and the journey. Mm-hmm. That I think

Niels Kwakernaak: 18:59

that, oh yeah, that's it. Wow. That might be very interesting indeed. Yeah.

Vona Johnson: 19:03

Yeah.

Niels Kwakernaak: 19:03

Especially if there are life stories that, that you can connect to it, to, to give it extra depth. You know, I, I, I can see, I can see that being a very, becoming a very interesting book indeed.

Vona Johnson: 19:13

Oh, yeah, she has some life stories that

Niels Kwakernaak: 19:16

she,

Vona Johnson: 19:17

She was the independent woman before her time and, you know, just did all the things. So, was a great role model to have. She, she was my first best friend and it was truly a gift, but again, mm-hmm. We we all have those people in our lives that we, we wish we knew more about. Right. And mm-hmm. Right. We can give them that gift. We can write those stories. Mm-hmm. And why not use some of the things that, that you're talking about

Niels Kwakernaak: 19:46

think much is, uh, also mm. I, I think some people also have trouble with actually remembering stories and so on. Like, well, what are, what, what, how did things happen and what was it exactly? And, uh, so when I'm coaching, I'm also paying attention to that, you know, that, like how do you find these stories? It's un unlocking these stories inside of you. Um, and, I would like to give three short tips for this. That'd be wonderful.

Vona Johnson: 20:13

Thank you.

Niels Kwakernaak: 20:14

One thing I'm really fan of doing is just taking long walks and actually talk to yourself, speak through the things, uh, for, you could, you could call it a prayer or just thinking aloud, but just go to, go to childhood and, and, and speak to yourself. Speak through these things because, uh, I think that it's better than just thinking. Because you are more conscious of the train of thought that you're following, and you can discover a lot of interesting things about your life if you very consciously think through them. And another way of doing that, and that is in the second, uh, tip. Is free writing it, it is. It means that you just start writing without actually having a goal with it, and you don't really know where you're going. You just write what comes to mind. And sometimes you go layers layer after layer deeper into the stuff that lives inside of you, and you can unlock stories that way that you completely, completely forgotten about. Uh, so, uh, you can do that with a Word document or, or pen on paper. Um, but the point is keep writing for a certain amount of time or until you're empty and just discover what is in there, what comes out. And then the third one that I find extremely helpful. And actually it helped me also remember all kinds of things that I completely forgot, is to draw a map of. Places where you have lived. For example, the house you grew up in, and all of the streets surrounding that house and all the houses that you remember being there and the bridge and the pond and the park and, and. Mentally walk through all these places and just basically look around and see what happened in those places. What, what happened there? Hey, that old lady over there, she always, always gave me cookies. Hey, why, why was I there? You know, ah, because she had this and that. And when, when I'm thinking, when I'm drawing a map of someplace where it lives, and you can do it with every timeframe of your life. Then these memories begin to come up when, when you draw this little house on, on the map with the little, um, little pathway and the street and where the cars are parked and all these memories slowly begin to pop up and, and you can write them down, I said, as just for all I care on the map, in a few words, the memory, describe the memory that that is linked to that place, and then later you can. Um, take those little fragments of memory and free write about them to find out more. And then sometimes you can rediscover all kinds of things, like how people were looking, why they were, um, uh, how they were standing, what they were saying. You can discover a whole lot of things by just, trying to see it again. And a map, A map can be extremely helpful.

Vona Johnson: 23:13

I love those ideas. That's that, that last one especially really, is a fascinating concept. I, I think that that would be really, really helpful. I found in my writing, they talk about, you know, getting into the zone and, you know, it's like getting all the outside world interruptions aside. And when I got to writing, it was like just filled with the Holy Spirit. And I mean, there would be times I would go back and be editing and reading through what I wrote and I would be like, wow, I wrote that. Mm-hmm. Where did that come from? And, and that mm-hmm. That in itself is just, an amazing gift. Before we had this conversation, we both separately prayed about this conversation. You mentioned it. Mm-hmm. And I didn't, but I, I absolutely was. I always do. And I think that that's a, a great tip for anyone, but whether they're going into a conversation or whether they're sitting down to write or whatever, but to just pray and ask the Holy Spirit mm-hmm. To guide those thoughts. Right,

Niels Kwakernaak: 24:13

right. Actually, my coaching is, uh. Divided it into six action steps, and the first one is simply aligning your heart with God's heart. It is making sure that your mission in life is to, to do what God wants you to do. Because from from that, you can find subjects to write about and, your mission, et cetera. You know, if you write from a desire to please God and to write the things that he wants you to write about. You start off on such a good basis,

Vona Johnson: 24:43

yeah. I could see where I could benefit from your coaching. When do we start?

Niels Kwakernaak: 24:53

No, maybe we've started already.

Vona Johnson: 24:55

Maybe we have. Maybe we have. This has been so enlightening. I've just, really enjoyed this and I know that we've only hit the tip of the iceberg. And that's okay, because we don't wanna give all your secrets away in this conversation. If someone listening to this was like, I need this. I'm right where God needs me this moment, and I need to, to take the next step. How could, how could they work with you? How could they take that next step?

Niels Kwakernaak: 25:21

Uh, well, there are a few things. First of all, I have an email list that, every week I try to, send some good tips, some good advice to all my subscribers. I. And also it comes with a free writing course where I give also some of the best of my advice. My advice in general is free. What is not free is my actual hands-on help. So, I also offer, one hour free coaching sessions. The first hour is always free, and I'm gonna do everything to, to help you unlock these stories and to develop a pathway forward. And if then you don't want to work with me problem whatsoever. This hour is for you to help you. And those are a few things you could do. Join my mailing list and when you do so, I offer you also a free coaching session and, and well within the coaching session, I might also recommend some books that are perfect to start with. My website is www.yourbeststory.net. Your best story net.

Vona Johnson: 26:28

I love it. That's, that's a great website.

Niels Kwakernaak: 26:30

It, it also reflects my desire. It's my desire to help you write your best story. Yeah. And, uh, sometimes I, I, I'm praying for my company and I mention your best story, and I think, wow, I hope that my life will also be God's best story. You know, then I mean, my life, our lives, you know, that we as believers may reflect God's best story, you know, so that's, it's, it's a multi-layered, uh, um. Name you could say. I,

Vona Johnson: 26:57

I love that. I really do. So, as we wrap up this conversation, and I think we could go on for a very long time. Mm-hmm. As we wrap up, is there any last word of advice that you would give our listeners today? Anything that you would wanna drive home before they, they take off?

Niels Kwakernaak: 27:17

Yeah. I think what I. I had a whole list of, of things I, had wanted to say, but I, but I think the most important thing is it's there to be authentic. I think that is what's anybody who reads your work wants is they want to read about a person, somebody who's not hiding, uh, be behind difficult words or, theories or, or who is not presenting the subject from a distance, but who is really speaking about everything from their own experiences, from their own feelings, so that people who read your work will really read a person's, story. And yeah, that's, that. That's it. Authenticity is super important.

Vona Johnson: 28:02

Well, it is, and I think, you know, we have. Our world in general has this tendency to wanna polish things up and make'em pretty before we present them. And what I hear you saying is don't, don't make that your focus.

Niels Kwakernaak: 28:17

No. Focus on presenting your story as powerfully as possible, but be very vulnerable, uh, in what you, uh, what you say. I think that is, that's vulnerability and that is, that is the way to people's hearts and indeed to, to. To present a better version of yourself. It's, it's not helping anybody. Right.

Vona Johnson: 28:42

Well, and I, I, I think that's great advice for whether we're writing our story or having a conversation or, or anything that we do. Just be ourselves and be, be vulnerable and, yeah, I love that. And, and I'll bring it all the way back to the beginning of the conversation. There are times when. We don't need to bring the whole dump truck. Right,

Niels Kwakernaak: 29:08

right. Absolutely. Yeah. That's, that's one of the things too, uh, one of my main focal points when I, when I coach, is figure out what do you want to say and exclude everything that does not, that does not have to do with this main message, this main thesis that you're trying to, uh, to bring across. So learn to exclude things. Learn to really. To pinpoint what you want to say and make sure that every chapter that you write works to convey that one message. Um, because readers can get lost, right? Literally, they can be completely lost in, uh, in a book that, well, actually, when people say, I got lost in that book, they often mean something positive. I mean, that they just don't know anymore where it's going. You know? Hmm. Um, and that is, uh, I think danger number one, when you start writing without a plan. So make sure that you know what you're gonna say and then create a plan as to how to get there so that your reader knows that they're in good hands.

Vona Johnson: 30:12

I think that is excellent advice and a really great place to end this conversation. Niels, I just wanna thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day and now that you're wrapping up your busy day. But anyway, thank you so much for, for sharing this, this wisdom. I'm excited to continue to learn and grow, in my writing with you. So thank you so much. Take care.

Niels Kwakernaak: 30:36

My pleasure and good luck with your own writing and with your fiction. If you have any questions, then you know where to find me.

Vona Johnson: 30:44

I do. Thank you.

Niels Kwakernaak: 30:45

God bless you. Bye-bye.

30:47

So I'm curious, what stories are you thinking that you maybe should write down? Is God nudging you in that direction? I encourage you to put into practice some of the tips and strategies that Niels offered today and see if God won't help you write that story. If he brought you to it, he will help you get it down on paper and who knows whose lives you will touch by writing down those stories that he has laid on your heart and those messages, that inspiration to help others know that they can trust him and lean on him. So I just wanna thank you for stopping by today. I hope you'll come back in a couple of weeks. We're gonna take a little bit different approach and start talking about how we can finish well as we near retirement. What does it look like to wrap things up nicely and finish well? I hope you'll come back for that. In the meantime, I pray that you'll always, always engage your faith, live your more in this beautiful time of courageous retirement. God bless.