36. Beyond the Money: Finding Purpose and Adventure in Retirement | A Courageous Retirement Panel Discussion

Retirement isn’t just about making your money last — it’s about making your life count.

In this special Courageous Retirement episode, host Vona Johnson teams up with guest host Michael Fritzius to co-lead a dynamic panel featuring three experts in purpose, financial planning, and travel. Together, Dan Simon, Mike Perez, and Amanda Hietter discuss how retirement can become your most meaningful, adventurous, and faith-filled season yet.

Throughout the conversation you will discover how to:
~Overcome fear and uncertainty about what’s next
~ Balance financial security with legacy and generosity
~ Embrace travel as a pathway to growth and connection
~ Find (or rediscover) your God-given calling in this new chapter

If you’re ready to dream big, live intentionally, and finish well, this conversation will inspire you to answer God’s call to MORE—and step confidently into your Best Season with confidence and purpose.

Whether you’re approaching retirement or already in it, this conversation will help you rethink what’s possible. Explore faith-based retirement planning, finding purpose beyond work, and living out God’s call to MORE in your best season yet.

Episode Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Retirement Fears and Purpose
00:24 Panel Discussion: Exploring Retirement Beyond Finances
01:30 Meet the Panelists: Amanda, Mike, and Dan
03:51 Addressing Fear and Uncertainty in Retirement
06:45 Building Community and Thriving in Retirement
14:00 Dreaming Big and Planning for Retirement
18:37 Creating a Legacy Through Travel and Experiences
26:11 Integrating Spiritual Calling in Retirement
31:57 Seeking Clarity in Financial Decisions
32:37 The Importance of Intentionality and Structure
34:39 Guarding Against Aimlessness in Retirement
38:39 Transformative Power of Travel in Retirement
40:05 Creative Travel Ideas for a Purposeful Retirement
41:26 Financial Planning for Stress-Free Travel
42:57 Discovering Your God-Given Calling
46:36 Influencing and Serving Without a Title
47:58 Five Pillars of a Faith-Driven Retirement
50:46 Defining a Financial Finish Line
52:44 Shifting Retirement Outlook with Biblical Principles
55:32 Legacy and Daily Decisions
56:37 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Quotes:
" And it's very important for me that everything is buttoned up at the end. And I've lived a life that I will be remembered for the things that I wanna be remembered for." Mike Perez

" The underlying question is this: when is enough enough?" Mike Perez

" You continue to influence and serve by continuing to serve the people and be of value to the people that God puts in front of you." Dan Simon

" A lot of people forget about the fact where you can have that fun, (with) what we call personal travel, but then incorporate in some kind of ministry or missions while you're there to give back to the community. And that is a way really to honor God through your retirement." Amanda Heitter

" It's never too early to start f

Thank you for stopping by today! Remember to Engage Your Faith and Live Your More as you reap the benefits of Courageous Retirement!

To watch the video, check out my YouTube Channel!

Learn more about the show, author Vona Johnson, and more at vonajohnson.com!

Schedule a free 15 minute Your Path to More call with Vona.

Join ClubMore @ clubmore.live

Transcript

Vona Johnson: 0:00

Retirement is one of those things we dream about throughout our work life. If you have a retirement plan, you've been working towards that magic date for years. Now if you're like me, the closer you get the scarier the concept gets. Am I gonna have enough money? What am I gonna do with my time? Am I really gonna have a purpose? Wil I still have an identity that means something to me. These are all things that we struggle with. I recently had the opportunity to sit down with host Michael Fritzius and we created a conversation around how retirement is about so much more than the money. So the five of us friends are just sitting down to visit about. Our purpose in retirement, we're gonna talk about the financial aspect of it, and we're also gonna talk about travel and how that can be an exciting part of retirement. I really hope you'll join us because it is a fun and engaging conversation. Look forward to seeing you there.

Speaker: 0:53

Do you fear? What lies beyond retirement? What if it's a gateway to a life filled with purpose, meaning, and adventure rather than an end? Discover peace and fulfillment as you boldly enter this new chapter in Courageous Retirement, a Christian podcast. I'm your host, author, and coach Vona Johnson. Let's get started.

Michael Fritzius: 1:12

This is more than money, how to prepare for a retirement in a way that matters. I think Vona and I and everybody else that's a panelist on here can agree it's more than just accruing a bunch of money and nibbling on it until the day you die. It's like, how do you, how do you build a retirement that actually lasts and makes a legacy? So I'm gonna go ahead and introduce the first of the three panelists. We're gonna kick things off with Miss Amanda Hietter. So Amanda and I have been friends for at least a little bit, and I think we know how we met. We probably met at a networking meeting or, you know, bumped into each other at a Panera, something like that. But she's in the travel space. She runs a business called Across the Horizon, travel. And she is a massive expert, I'll say Maven, travel Maven. She's really good at what she does and, if you wanna know how to build an experience that makes for lasting memories in the years of retirement. Amanda is the gal, and I'm gonna switch over to Vona now. She's gonna introduce Mike Perez'cause I don't know that guy and she knows him better than I do.

Vona Johnson: 2:16

Well, I'd be lying if I said Mike and I were best friends, but we met online like so many of us do anymore. And, he, he found my profile, reached out. We hopped on a call and visited for a while, and he's a speaker and an author. He's a partner in a national financial organization and he has, as you can see on the screen behind him there, he's got his company called Finish the Race Strong, which I think really parallels exactly what we're talking here today about, you know, just retirement. And it's more than the money. It's so much more than the money and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So welcome Mike. Thanks for Yeah. Agreeing to join us today. Yeah, thank you for inviting me, Vona this is awesome.

Michael Fritzius: 2:57

Yeah. Well, and then we've got Dan Simon, founder of Dan Simon Solutions, and he is a leadership coach, and I've learned quite a bit from him. This isn't the first time we've crossed swords. Well, that sounds combative. This is the first time we've interacted at this level. He's been in panel discussions before. He is taken part in talks, and, you know, he's just an all around good guy. He's got such a, a good nature. But it's the, it's the, the deep leadership, like when you work with him, you can feel you're in good hands. Like if you're, if you're wanting to learn how to be an awesome leader, if you want to leave an awesome legacy for your family, for your employees, he's an excellent guy to have in your court. I wanna welcome Dan to the panel. I'll kick us off with the first question, which is gonna be for Amanda and Dan both. So get ready. So, Amanda, this question is for you first. Both of you work with people who are stepping into a new chapter in life or leadership. So how do you help them move past fear and uncertainty into clarity? About what's next? Amanda, over to you.

Amanda Hietter: 4:09

So my niche is working with coaches who want to scale their businesses through hosting retreats. And the way that I help them find clarity is we talk about what their vision is for the retreat and we kind of go from there. So dive into what the experience is going to entail, and then I have multiple questions that we just continue down that path to where we're niching it down to something that's going to be a very, very cool experience for the attendees themselves.

Michael Fritzius: 4:40

Awesome. Very, very cool. Dan, same question. How do you get people to come out the other side of fear and uncertainty so that they can, you know, move forward with awesomeness?

Dan Simon: 4:50

So my work is really with kind of two different client avatars, I suppose. Right? You could, you could say majority of my work having been a lifetime educator at the secondary level is adolescents that are entering the phase of choosing vocation, college of career. And I also spend quite a bit of time working with military students in particular because of the the, the challenges there. And, and what I find is that when you're talking about uncertainty about what's next, I know we're talking retirement, but I want to give a perspective on this'cause I think it, it overlaps. There's the, the idea of put putting it off, right? What happens is we put it, we put off the, the, the. Task too often. I'll think about it later. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, I'll wait out plenty of time to think about that. And so when you kind of translate that onto adults that I work with, many of them are transitioning out of the military. It's the same kind of questions like you, you're just used to doing things a certain way. You kind of doing it that way for a long time. You're comfortable there. So a little bit of it is, is asking some uncomfortable questions. It's about trying to understand, like, I've thought about this, but it's never really been an option. It's something, but I've never really knew how to do that. And so starting to engage in those conversations early to me is what really helps you. When the time comes, when you get there you're more prepared, more confident in being able to do that.

Michael Fritzius: 6:17

Beautiful, beautiful. Asking the hard questions early and often. Very cool. Vona, what's the next question on the docket my dear?

Dan Simon: 6:25

Actually, I hope you don't mind, but I'm just gonna say Dan, I love that. And what I love about it is when I'm talking to people that are kinda like, I don't know, retirement, and it seems so big and everything, a lot of times I take'em back to, what did you wanna do when you were a kid? What did you love? Because sometimes we skip over that when we get forced into these pockets that we think we have to do. So that's cool. Yeah. So the next question for both of you is, how does building community, whether through travel or leadership development, help people thrive in retirement? And let's time, this time, let's start with Dan. Well, when my book eventually gets written you can ask my wife about that one. She's cracking the whip and I'm just not responding well. But yeah, the the title of the book is actually going to be, not perfect, just perfect together. And, and the nature is that we're not meant to do life alone. Right? We're not to, you know, we were created to do things in community. And so I think that the idea of, that community, who are the people around you that are the, the, that that press you, right? But in a loving way. Who are the people who are gonna help you challenge?'cause oftentimes, right, we have this. It's kind of a designed humility and we just don't think we're good enough to do that, or we just don't think that that's not really what I've been, you know, I like doing that, but I'm not really all that good at it, or whatever the, the case may be. You need the people around you who you, who've surrounded you your whole life, whether professionally, personally through ministry to be able to say, no. When I'm around you, you just make me feel this way. Or when I talk to you, I just hear things that I don't hear from anybody else. And so those are the people that you need to always have around you so that when you're starting again to think about what might next, those are the people who can reinforce like either, yes, I think that's the right lane, or, well, that's not the gifting that I think you have. I think it might be maybe more this way. So that's the value of surrounding yourself with that community.

Vona Johnson: 8:25

Love it. Thank you, Amanda. Same question.

Amanda Hietter: 8:29

Yeah, so I, my, I personally love putting together group trips and the reason I do that is because I am a single woman and I wanna travel with other people. So especially for retirees, and sometimes I even think of women or men that are widowed, traveling in a group is so key because the people that you get to meet are usually people that have a sense of adventure. And when you are getting ready to retire, surrounding yourself with people that maybe have a mindset that's a little bit different than others. Because I know personally people that travel internationally have a totally different mindset than people that try that stay within the US, so getting to connect with those types of people and maybe thinking of ideas outside the box. For me, I became a travel agent because I never wanna retire. Technically. Like when I retire, I'll still be working this business. So maybe when you are retiring, I always say retire, but then you need to have a purpose outside of that. So when you're traveling with these people that are thinking outside the box, going to these places like Aruba, Costa Rica, Alaska, whatever it might be, they may give you an idea of, Hey, this is a way that I can retire, but then I can still maybe make a little bit of extra income or get involved in a ministry or get involved in church with something I never thought I could do. So being a part of a community that travels together will really help them think outside the box.

Michael Fritzius: 9:53

Hmm. Nice. Thank you. Love it. Love it, love it. Back

Vona Johnson: 9:56

to you, Fritz.

Michael Fritzius: 9:57

All right. So Amanda and Dan, in your experience, what's one overlooked non-financial factor that can make or break someone's post career fulfillment? And we'll go with Amanda first this time.

Amanda Hietter: 10:14

Ooh, that's a tough one. Honestly not like thinking ahead. That can definitely make or break you if you're not planning ahead when it comes to retirement financially, and I know this is non-financial factor, but planning ahead with that there, that is something that you definitely need to do. And what I mean by that is if you're putting away like banking away, different places that you wanna travel to, for me, I have this huge long bucket list. And so when I look at that bucket list, I'm planning, okay, maybe in like 2028 I'm gonna go here. So planning ahead and for things like that can definitely help you be able to be more prepared for your future travels.

Michael Fritzius: 10:58

Beautiful, beautiful. Dan, same question. What's a, what's a non-financial factor that can make or break someone's post career fulfillment?

Dan Simon: 11:09

Well, I, I. I, I think it's it's purpose, right? I mean, we were, you know, we've already heard that come up here today. I mean, you, you know, when we work, we usually, we work because we know we're going to make an impact in some way, right? And then when we stop working. The question is, well now how am I gonna, how am I gonna make an impact? And, and, and who am I gonna make an impact on? Right. So like for me, you know, the, the being in 30, almost 35 years in education, adolescent education, like I, I, I retired from my job, but I'm still impacting adolescents in the work that I do because I feel like that's where God has designed me to be. And, and that's, that's my purpose. But it's a different way now, right? He is kind of molded me into a path where I'm still having an impact, but a different kind of impact. But I think you have to have alignment with, with your purpose and what that is. What are your, what are your skillset? What are your strengths? What are your passions? But ultimately, when you're not doing it for a paycheck necessarily, what are you doing it for? And so to me, that's the place where the purpose is the most important. Non-financial you know, kind of motivation or fulfillment in what you're gonna do post-retirement. You know, and it may not, you may not find it right away. Mm-hmm. Sometimes you're gonna try things and you're gonna be like, yeah, this, this isn't it. So it's, it's when you really feel like that, yeah, this is, this is it, you know, and confident that God's led me there. I, I think that's, to me that's what it's

Michael Fritzius: 12:38

awesome. You know, you hit on a good point too, because sometimes people shy away from trying to find their purpose.'cause they think, well, what if I try something and I waste my time? And it's not actually the thing, Hey, that's data you didn't have before. You didn't know that that wasn't gonna be the thing. But now that, you know, that's not it, that kind of helps narrow things down. Anything that's similar to that is gonna be a hard No. There's like whole swaths of things that you can just drop on the floor. It's amazing. I, I

Dan Simon: 13:03

would just add to that, and, and I, I know I'm over my time, but I'm, I'm borrowing the 30 seconds Amanda left. When you talk about, it's the same thing with a, with adolescents starting that conversation in high school. Right. Trying things, experiencing things to say either, wow, I'm glad I did that'cause I love that. Or I'm glad I did that'cause I don't want anything to do with that for the rest of my life. So it's experiencing and finding, and when you find that alignment, you just, you know. Yep.

Vona Johnson: 13:30

You know, when my son was in college, he kept taking like a course line and he'd be like no, I hate that. And I kept saying, you know what? Sometimes it's better to know what you don't want than you do want.

Michael Fritzius: 13:41

Yep. Same thing in retirement. Mm-hmm. It's very valuable. Very valuable. Well, we got another pairing of question receivers here, Amanda and Michael. So, Vona, what's the first question on the docket for those two?

Vona Johnson: 13:52

So you guys both focus on strategic planning. Amanda, you do for Michael, you for finances and purpose. How do you help people dream big. I love this one. How do you help people dream big about retirement without letting the fear of cost? Hold them back. You might be speaking directly to me, or maybe not, I don't know. But we're gonna start with Mike first, just to give him for, he's gotta be itching to talk. So go Mike.

Michael Perez: 14:19

Yeah, I've been just kind of sitting here listening. I, I, I just had a thought about, you know, like I say to my daughter all the time that nothing is failure, it's just information. And it shows you where you go next. I think, I've, I've actually got a, a book sitting right across from you over there called Dream Big. And I think one of the unfortunate things about life is that as we age, we dream less. I mean, that's been my observation and we forget what it was like to dream as a young kid. And so one of the things that I've always tried to do in the people that I engage with is just get them to dreaming again and as they head into this season of life, do it without restraints. Start there. Just, just start dreaming and, and figuring out what you might like to do in the future. One of my favorite questions to ask people in this season of life is, what would you like to do in this life before your time is up? Because I think that becomes the kind of the foundation for what will become kind of the bucket list. And a lot of people have never been asked that question, so sometimes they don't really know how to answer it. But I do think it's a good question. The other observation is I think so many people act like they have so much time in this second half of life. And in one of my workshops, I, there, I, there's a book that I refer to called the, the Fourth Quarter of Your Life. I can't remember the rest of the title. It's like the fourth quarter of your life Embracing what Matters most. And you know, a lot of people, when they think about the future, they think about, well, I've got a hundred years, right? So I've got plenty of time. And what they fail to realize is the average life expectancy is 80, 35% of the folks make it to 90 and only 1% of the folks make it to a hundred. So, they can't act like they have lots of time. And I always encourage people to, to live with a sense of urgency. One of my favorite quotes is outta the movie the Shaw Shank Redemption. Where Andy Fra said, you either get busy living or you get busy dying. Yep. And so we try to inspire people to, to get busy living. The other thing is, I, I don't want people to have regrets. I've seen too many people, they get too far down the line and then they look back and they go, ah, I, I didn't do what I really wanted to do when I had the chance. And so I, I encourage people, I'm like, get after it. Go do it now. Dream big, make things happen.'cause you don't know what the future's gonna hold. And obviously this all has to be coordinated with the money.'cause you can't just do whatever you want, but you start with the dreaming. Thank you. Amanda, do you remember the question?

Amanda Hietter: 17:10

Yes, I do. I'll try to make it short, which I'm good at doing. So on, what's really awesome is that you're asking the question about what do we do to help our clients dream big? And actually the slogan for Across the Horizon travel is dream big and travel bigger. So we, when we're working with our clients, we wanna find out those bucket list destinations that they want to go to. And usually it's places that maybe seem just a little bit too far out of reach, like Singapore or Japan or Australia, like on the other side of the world, if you live in the United States. And so when I'm talking to my clients and they're saying, okay, how much do you think this is gonna cost? And I give them a number and they're like, oh my gosh, we don't have that. That's not put aside. I talk with them about the strategy of opening up a travel savings account. And if you are a W2 employee, you can actually coordinate with your bank to have money taken out before that money even hits your bank account and put into that travel savings account. And you're not able to touch it, I believe for a year, two years, whatever you set it for, so that you can use that as a deposit or even to pay off your whole trip depending on how much money you're putting in for that. So I always find that to be something that is key when it comes to preparing and strategizing for a trip that might seem a little bit out of reach for my client.

Vona Johnson: 18:32

That sounds like a great strategy. Thank you. You're welcome.

Michael Fritzius: 18:36

Awesome. Well I heard the term bucket list come up a little bit ago, so how can intentional travel or bucket list experiences actually strengthen someone's legacy? And Mike, since you used. The B term, the B word bucket list before I'm gonna come to you first, so you got it. Am I the, am

Michael Perez: 18:58

I the only, am I the only one that cried at that movie? Oh my God,

Michael Fritzius: 19:01

it was good.

Michael Perez: 19:03

I love the word legacy. One of the, one of the questions that I ask people a lot is, what do you wanna be remembered for? A lot of people don't get asked that question much, but I think most of us would prefer to, be remembered as somebody that live life to the fullest. I always encourage people to be a role model for those around them, their family members, their friends. I know I have at the season of life where I am, I see a lot of my peers kind of packing it in and kind of taking the, the, the safe route for the rest of their lives. And so I try to be inspiration to them that you can live out these bucket list things. And the other thing that I think is really cool about it is just having incredible memories to look back on number one with the people that you experienced it with. But it's always fun to, when you're in mixed company to tell stories about all these great adventures that you've had. So I think living this out can be a really cool part of one's legacy.

Michael Fritzius: 20:15

Beautiful. Beautiful. Amanda, over to you, intentional travel bucket list experiences, how do you think that actually strengthens someone legacy?

Amanda Hietter: 20:25

So as a mom, I have wanted in the past to take my children on trips to places that were on my bucket list, and I actually got the pleasure of doing that. Not one time, not two times, but actually four times. And it's, I'm still continuing to do that. I have made it to be something where each and every year I take my kids on a new trip to a new destination. And as I look back on those experiences, I think about how at Christmas time, we all give each other gifts. My kids cannot remember what gift I gave to them last year. Now they can, they still talk about the experience that we took back in 2022 when we went to Mexico and that it was our first time as older kids being outside of the country. So I'm creating a legacy that way with my children. And if you think about it with. Doing like a multi-generational trip with mom and dad, grandma and grandpa, aunts and uncles, cousins, siblings, everybody getting together and maybe having a cruise experience that can build a legacy in itself where maybe the young nieces and nephews are seeing their aunt for the first time dancing on the dance floor. And that's something that they're gonna remember forever of like, and Amanda was so much fun on the dance floor. I'm gonna remember that for the rest of my life. So honestly, doing a group trips, taking your kids on trips, that is the perfect way to continue your legacy as a parent, sibling, mother, father, whatever it might be.

Michael Fritzius: 21:51

Yep. A hundred percent heard there. And I think too, it's like what are the chances that a family that travels like that on a regular basis is not gonna travel the future, generations aren't gonna stay at home and be a bunch of home bodies. I, we'll just have a staycation. If they're not gonna do that, they're not gonna do that at all. So, awesome, Vona. What's the next question? For Amanda and Michael.

Vona Johnson: 22:13

Yeah, I love this. And it, I mean, you guys have kind of touched on it already yeah. But I like how Fritz expanded this. So it's like, what role do these shared experiences that you guys have already touched on, family trips, mission travel, et cetera, what role do they play in shaping a God honoring retirement? Mm-hmm. And I love that, bringing it into how can we honor God through that? So Amanda, I'm gonna start with you.

Amanda Hietter: 22:39

Yeah. So one thing that. Across the horizon travel does, is we actually put together faith-based trips every year. Next year we're going to Greece and I'm really excited about that. And I have incorporated in a full day of us giving back to the community where we're either gonna go into an orphanage, a school or a church, whatever it might be, when it gets closer to that time of travel for what is needed most. And so if you are someone that's on the verge of retiring and you're like, what can I do to still continue to grow God's kingdom? You can easily do that through missions, trips, through travel, doing like the bringing the book of acts to life, like we're what we're gonna be doing in October. So. Honestly, travel in itself can become something so much more. A lot of people forget about the fact where you can have that fun, what we call like personal travel, but then incorporate in some kind of ministry or missions while you're there to give back to the community. And that is a way really to honor God through your retirement if you're gonna be retiring, and most people say when they retire, I'm gonna travel. Well incorporate giving back. And that is the way that you're gonna be able to share God's love, be able to witness to others, and potentially bring people to Christ. And that is one of the most amazing things you can do when you're traveling. Right?

Vona Johnson: 23:58

Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I, I have not forgotten I'm, I got my, I got, I got my passport, so I'm getting there. Yay. I'm so excited. Vona. Mike, do you remember the question? How, how can you that I

Michael Perez: 24:12

remember the question? I, man, I, I love what Amanda was just saying. That is great stuff. And I think I, I mean. In this season of life. The purpose of all of this is to, to really create memories and to create bonding. And I think a lot of people when they think of especially like travel and some of these other things that, you know, it's all about having a good time and that, but, you know, number one, you, you get to see the people you're with maybe in a different light because you're in a different, set of circumstances. But I, I love the, the concept of going on vacation and actually serving. We have actually as a family, we, we took a, a group of college students we've actually vacationed and served down in Guatemala. And man, those are really rich trips and they're god honoring and it's something I think. Really, I, I've actually seen a lot of people that are retired doing that sort of thing. The other thing that I think would be very God honoring in retirement is I love it when I see grandparents, taking their grandchildren on trips without their parents. And, you know, exposing them to the things that they may not have been exposed to. Obviously it's a way to, to help out the, their parents financially by stepping in and doing things like that. So, yeah, that you can be really intentional with, with these shared experiences to, create some really cool bonding and bonding experiences and memories. Love it. Thank you. Thank you. Back to you, Fritz.

Michael Fritzius: 26:04

Awesome. So this one's for Dan and Mike. Both of you guide people to discover their calling. How does that process change for someone approaching or already in retirement? So, Dan, go ahead and come off mute and rap at us.

Dan Simon: 26:20

Well, I don't think, honestly, I don't think it's any different from other phases in life. Right? That's why I say, you know what, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful for the opportunity to work with adolescents who are probably in that really that first transition right in life. Trying to decide what they wanna pursue, what they wanna do that's fulfilling. And then, you know, when we get into adulthood, we're. Constantly pivoting. Right. You know, it's, it's either maybe for some it's the flavor of the month. For others it's, you know, I'll stick it out for a long time. But when we get to this point about retirement, I think you, it's always a matter of going back and saying what has, what has brought you fulfillment, what has brought you joy? What has, you know, what has the thing that you haven't been able to do that you've been wishing you had more time to do? What is the thing that you feel like you're really good at that you haven't been able to develop? You know, playing the piano, art, you know, whatever it may be. I think it's the same kind of question that you're asking a teenager, and it's the same kind of thing. You're asking somebody who served in the military for 20 years, it's, you know, coming out now and has no idea what their skills and their passions are. And I think when you get to the stage of retirement after working in a career for so long, you, you, you get to a place where that's a, that's just a question you've gotta be able to ask. So I don't think it's really that different of a question at what I would say those three particular times of life where transition is, is happening.

Michael Fritzius: 27:44

That's good. That makes it easier to remember. You don't have to remember three things, you just gotta remember one. That's right. That's awesome. I love it. Mike, same question, sir.

Michael Perez: 27:53

Yes. I would, I would say dealing with calling in this season of life relative to the other seasons of life is, this is probably even more challenging because I feel like, a lot of our calling early on in life is connected to our families and our jobs, and it's just kind of laid out pretty naturally for us. And then all of a sudden you, you don't have that and you're like, okay, what am I being called to do? And. I always tell people I don't think we're unlike the secular messaging, I don't think we're being called to a life of 100% leisure. I think leisure is important. But I do think we're being called to something more than that. You know, it talks about in Ephesians 2:10 that you were called for good works. And I always tell people it doesn't say that all bets are off once you're retired. You're supposed to be doing good works through and through. So I think this is a big reset and I think you really gotta take an inventory of what have your, what are your, your current talents what are you passionate about? Where do you see opportunities to, to, to make that happen? Share a quick story with you. I was listening to a podcast. He had a guy on there, he's in his early eighties. He's an executive coach and mentor, and he's still doing it. And he wrote a book called Decade by Decade, and it was just based on some observations that he made. So he went through the twenties, the thirties, the forties, the fifties. He said the most productive decade from his observation was the sixties, second was the seventies. Third was the fifties. Had nothing to do with working 80 hours a week. It had everything to do with impact, influence, wisdom. And so I'm constantly telling my peers that your best days can be ahead of you. That it's not time to, to pack it in that you can do some amazing stuff.

Michael Fritzius: 29:52

Well, that's super encouraging for me'cause I'm in my forties and it didn't even make it in his top three. I'm already feeling like I'm pretty efficient with my time, man. An 80-year-old Fritz is going to be practically unstoppable. I'm excited when I get to be level 80, I'm gonna be like, get outta the way.

Michael Perez: 30:10

He did. He did say the caveat though is you gotta stay healthy. You gotta stay healthy. Oh, there's that. Okay. Yeah,

Michael Fritzius: 30:15

yeah. All right. But you're running running marathons. You're good. I'm running marathons. I mean, I think that's gotta count for something. So, Vona, over to you. What's the next question?

Vona Johnson: 30:23

At first, I wanted just say, you know, Fritz's, that one of the things that I really try to hit with people is it's never too early to start finishing well.

Michael Fritzius: 30:33

Mm-hmm.

Vona Johnson: 30:34

And think about the impact that you're making, where you are, and how you can build on that to transition in that next phase. So Yep. You're, you're at the perfect place right now with this conversation about retirement. Yes. So next, I'm just building like

Michael Fritzius: 30:48

a fiend over here. Yep.

Vona Johnson: 30:51

Well, I just appreciate the opportunity that you brought us to have this conversation. So the next question for Dan and Mike are how can people integrate their spiritual calling into both their use of time and their financial planning? And let's start with Dan this time.

Dan Simon: 31:07

Yeah. So. Time, time and planning. I, and to me it's, it's always a matter of, of, you know, how do we, how do we discern, right? How do we discern that it is from God? How do we know that there's a spiritual element to it? And that we're not really just motivated by money or, or what we want. And that's, you know, that's, that's a really important thing. I think as we get older, we have to be really careful'cause we're getting pulled in a lot of different directions and, you know, my wife will tell me this, I'm guilty of this. Right. It sometimes it's, it's, it's squirrel, right. It's the shiny new thing. Right. And be like, I didn't, but I didn't even finish that yet. Right. And she'll tell us, she'll remind me like when, like. Are you really ready? You wanna really take on something else that you're not gonna finish, right? Why don't you finish, you know, one of these big dreams that you have, one of these big things that, that you have laid out in front of you. So I think when you're, when you're thinking about setting aside money, I thought Amanda did a really great job of talking about some of that. If travel is something that you want if, if if leaving the legacy, you know, financial stability to your children is something whatever that is, I think you just, you have to bring it before the Lord and say, Lord, if, if this is really from you, if you're gonna honor this, then just give me clarity in that, you know, is this thing that I'm about to get into, is this from you or not? And then as this kind of gets into the last question I'll answer as well, but to me it's about you need the clarity from God, but you also need people to help you with that clarity. And so I'll save that for the third question. Sounds good. Thank you, Mike. Same question.

Michael Perez: 32:37

Yeah. The word that jumps out for me, especially when it comes to time, is the word intentional. My observation has been, most people are not super intentional with their time. And one of the things I work with a lot of people in the second half of life, and one of the things I hear all the time is Mike, I don't, I don't know where the time goes. It just, I feel busier now than I, than I was when I was working. And yet when they look back, they don't really have a lot to show for it. So I feel like especially if you're gonna live out your calling intentionality is so, so important as you move forward. The other thing that I hear is people say, well, I probably don't need as much structure in my life now that I'm moving into this season of life. And the reality is you probably need it more than you've ever needed it, because once again time can get away from you. And then as far as the. The financial piece, I think, yeah, depending on what you're called to do, you could be impacted financially. I mean, you may be required to move, you may be required to be more generous. You, you know, there's, you may be required to adjust your lifestyle. So be careful what you wish for on the calling because it can impact you financially. And I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing, it just means that you may have to make some adjustments.

Vona Johnson: 34:03

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. In fact, yeah, I could go on that forever and I won't, but I will say that my, my, I got so wrapped up in the worldly. Cause for, you know, you gotta make more money, you gotta make more money. And I feel like the lesson that God has taught me in retirement is I have already provided for you. Go do those things that I've asked you to do. And, and that's, we, it's so easy to get caught in that trap. Yeah. Fritz has asked me to ask the next set of questions because he's gotten some background noise where he's at. So I'm going to go and we're gonna start with you this time, Mike. What are some ways retirees can guard against drifting into aimlessness? And I think you've just started to talk about that a little bit once their career chapter closes.

Michael Perez: 34:49

Yeah. I think very, you, you gotta be very intentional with your time. I think about that a lot. The other thing is, a lot of people today are very isolated and so I think community, I know. As I get older, that's becoming more and more important to me. But you gotta stay in community. But I also think that you gotta pay attention to who you allow in your sphere. I mean, we, we, over the years, we get pulled in all these directions and meet all these people, and I just find that you get into this season, I think you gotta be very selective about who you, you allow. And I always say to my daughter you will be the average of the five people that you hang out the most with. So pay attention to who you're hanging out with. I don't think this is a new one, but I think continual growth and learning is very, very important. I think a lot of people feel like in this season, why don't, I don't really have to grow anymore? I, what? What's there to learn? I don't, and I think to me, you'd be one of the richest seasons of your life. As far as growing and learning. Talked a little bit about the structure, you know, around your time. And then I think Dan had brought this up earlier. I think where a lot of people get sideways is whatever their setup is, they just can't find meaning and purpose in it. And as I like to say to people, just because you're retired doesn't mean the meaning and purpose equation goes away. It probably becomes even more important because you realize you're in this last season of life and you know, you want it to, you want it to count for something. And so I think a lot of people struggle with that. And you know, that's where we all have to put in the work to, to make sure that there's meaning and purpose in our life.

Vona Johnson: 36:44

Yeah. Excellent point. Thank you, Dan.

Dan Simon: 36:47

Well, not surprisingly, I I second everything Mike said there. I mean, that's, you know, there was some real great wisdom. I, I, I think for me, I would just add, I would add two elements. I would add accountability and vulnerability. Right? Mike talked about community. I think we have to have people who're actually accountable to for it. And again, I, I just mentioned my, my wife. I, I'm grateful In this season, I, I've become probably far more, willing. And that's where the vulnerability comes in. Willing to say, you know, to hear you know, what do you think of this? And to say, well, you know, and she asks great questions and she'll sometimes push back on things that I might be looking at. And I might, you know, my eyes might be wide open and it'd be just like, that's the ninth thing that you're, you know, you're taking, and do you really wanna be able to do that? And will you really fulfill your purpose if you spread yourself so thin? Right. So I think we have to have those people that we're accountable to in that community, right? Lots of people kind of with input, but who's gonna actually hold our feet to the fire? And then, and, and with that comes that vulnerability. You have to be willing to hear it. When somebody is willing to kind of hold your feet to the fire, it burns right at times. And so you have to be willing to have those people in your life where you're not gonna walk away and reject it because it's not what you wanna hear. You're actually willing to accept it and say, thank you for that, because I think you just saved me from going down a rabbit hole that might have taken my time and my resources away. So so yeah. So I second Mike and I would add those two pieces to it. Nice. Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. Are you, are you with us again, Fritz?

Michael Fritzius: 38:20

I am. Our neighbor had his Corvette going and then he, and it just didn't even go anywhere. He just ran it for like 15 minutes in his garage. I'm like, okay, that's cool. He's just gotta blow out the pipes. Well, the next stage that we've got is questions for individual panelists. The first one is gonna be for Amanda. Question I've got for you is you specialize in group travel, that fosters connection. How have you seen travel, transform someone's vision for the retirement years?

Amanda Hietter: 38:50

So I'm actually going to talk about my parents because both of my parents are at that age to retire, and I recently had the pleasure of taking each of them on an international trip. I took my dad to Turks and Caicos and my mom on an Alaska cruise. And after they both came back, it's so funny because my parents, they have traveled a lot throughout their life and they were like, we're gonna just stay here in our home here in St. Louis. We don't really need to travel. And then all of a sudden they started talking about how they want to travel more now that they're about to retire, which I think is hilarious that they said something different. And now that I've taken them and traveling, they're getting that travel bug again. So they're actually talking about getting an RV and just traveling the United States and going to all 50 states and just seeing the world. So honestly, travel can really transform you to be like, you know what? There's so much out there to see. I don't wanna just sit here and. Be a lump on a log and just not really do anything effective with the rest of my life. Once I retire, this is a chance to get out into the, into the world and, and share God's love with others.

Michael Fritzius: 39:58

That's super encouraging. That's super encouraging.

Vona Johnson: 40:01

Love that.

Michael Fritzius: 40:02

Yeah.

Vona Johnson: 40:04

So continuing on with Amanda. What's one creative travel idea you've seen that made retirement feel more purposeful?

Amanda Hietter: 40:13

Yes. So this is actually a part of my niche. I currently work with coaches and I help them create another stream of income through hosting retreats. And I have seen coaches that are close to that retirement age where they're starting to talk about travel and getting closer to their clients or customers through an in-person experience. And that is in retreats. So when you host a retreat that gives you a chance to get closer to your clientele, it gives you a chance to pour into them, give back to them. And I love working with kingdom preneurs people that love the Lord. And so a lot of the times they're incorporating in worship, bible study, meditation, things of that nature, and that in itself, we are put here on this earth for one purpose and one purpose of all it is to grow God's kingdom. And so when I'm helping these people. Create these transformational experiences, and then they come back to me and say, oh my gosh, this person was drifting away from God, and they now have such a strong, powerful relationship with God through this retreat. It is so empowering for both of us.

Vona Johnson: 41:23

It's amazing. Yes. Thank you.

Michael Fritzius: 41:25

Awesome. So Amanda, how can retirees make travel a regular life giving habit without it becoming financially or logistically stressful?

Amanda Hietter: 41:36

That's a good question. I always recommend work with a financial advisor, especially if you are maybe in your like thirties or forties and you haven't really started putting away money for retirement. Because again, back to what I said before, a lot of people say they're gonna travel when they retire. So it's really important to have those funds put away, not just for your regular day-to-day life, but also for your travel. And then for me, I became a travel advisor because I never wanna retire. So that's an idea in itself. You could start a whole new profession and become a travel agent, travel for free or super discounted. That in itself could be super fun. There's so many different things you can do in the travel world that could make it super simple and easy for you to travel a lot more. Vona and I have actually had this discussion, so there is opportunity out there where you can still work and be able to travel for super cheap, free, or even get paid to travel.

Michael Fritzius: 42:30

Hmm. That resonates with me.'cause I mean, I'm in my forties and I feel like I'm never gonna retire.'cause I, I keep finding fun things to do that ends up making money and it's like, I don't ever wanna stop working. I'm having too much fun.

Amanda Hietter: 42:45

I feel you on that one. So. Yeah.

Michael Fritzius: 42:46

Well we got Dan up next on the docket. So what's the first question for Dan, my dear?

Vona Johnson: 42:51

Dan, you help people with their God-given calling, which I think is wonderful. How do you approach that conversation with someone who thinks that their calling is really all tied up into their career?

Dan Simon: 43:04

I think you, you have to, you have to go back to scripture. I mean, you know, the new kind of slogan, I guess I would, I would say in all my work is, is around made for more. Made for more and made for more means. You know, we're, we're always seeking to, to do more for the kingdom, right? And so when we look at calling types of career, that there's a season for that. You know, God called you, gave you certain talent, gave you an ability to make an impact where you were. But what, what, what else is there? What are, again, going back to before, what are some other areas that you can make an impact? And have you taken the time to think about that? Just even thinking of relationships and other, you know, have you, have you been a volunteer coach and had an impact on kids, you know, whatever else it may be. Just to start looking at outside the work, where have you had impact? Where have you felt like purpose and, and fulfillment? And start exploring that. And that, and then see where God leads with those doors. Will he spring those doors wide open, or will he close those doors and move you in another direction?

Vona Johnson: 44:09

He can be pretty direct about some of that. Can he?

Dan Simon: 44:11

Mm-hmm. And slam that door pretty hard in our face at times, right? Mm-hmm.

Vona Johnson: 44:16

Thank you. Thank you.

Michael Fritzius: 44:18

I guess that's a sign I shouldn't go this direction, said the person who just got their door slammed in their face. That's right. That's right. So Dan, well, I always

Dan Simon: 44:26

say it this way, Mike, that's kind of related. I always say it this way, right? I mean, you know, look, Jonah was gonna get to Nineva one way or the other, right? So he could have, he could have made the journey, you know, simple and just been obedient. Or, you know, you, you get mixed in with the vomit coming out of the whale's mouth, right? I mean, but one way or another, that's where he was gonna end up, right? So you could choose your path in being obedient or not, right? Which goes into the next question, ask it and I'll, I'll respond.

Michael Fritzius: 44:54

He, he has chosen the hard way. So, Dan, what is one question you wish every retiree would ask themselves before they step away from work?

Dan Simon: 45:06

It's the, i I think that comes down, it's, it's to the, the why question. It's, you know, what, why, and, and pros and the pro and con list, right, is still, it's something you start again, back in the search for college and career and where you wanna go as an adolescent. And I don't think it changes as an adult. What are the pros and cons? You know, what are the things you have to consider? And primarily when you look at those things that are the good and the bad, which of those are driven by your kind of, your, your human interest and your, your, you know, human desire and which of those are driven by what feels truly like a move of the spirit? Like, I just can't shake this, right? I just can't get this outta my head. I feel like it's gotta be from God. And the, the thing I wanna point out about that,'cause I experienced this, I mean, you talk about retiring, like I retired first at age 47, right? So Vona knows my story, but that what I retired to at that time was not what God was preparing me for. What he was preparing me for was what was gonna come after that. But he needed to get me out of the comfort zone that I was in. And so I felt motivated and I felt led that this is where the Lord wants me. And it wasn't for that season, it was for the season that followed. So I think that's where we have to be able to say, is this, is this me or is this you Lord? And sometimes the Lord will say, no, it's from me, but be patient.'cause it's, it's not the now that I'm really preparing you for, it's what's next.

Michael Fritzius: 46:29

Hmm.

Vona Johnson: 46:30

I love that. To me this, this next question is tied around kind of our identity and the, what the world tells us we should be. But how do faith-based leaders in retirement continue to influence and serve without a title? That title is so big,

Dan Simon: 46:46

And yet it's not. Right?

Vona Johnson: 46:48

Right. Well, I'm just saying that we've been led to believe it is

Dan Simon: 46:51

right, and yet it's not. Because the fact is that God puts people in our lives all the time. What are we doing with the people that he puts in front of us every day? Right? And, and, and whether that as a, you know, a business component to it where we're looking to, you know, hire a client or whether we're looking to, to, to build a, you know, our network, you know, God gives us every day opportunities to, to serve and to, you know, to, to, to, I always say, right. I used the, the, the, the famous Saint Augustine, right? Right. You know, to preach the gospel and when necessary use words. Right. I mean, that becomes the way we live, title or no title. And so to me, you continue to influence and serve by continuing to serve the people and, and be of value to the people that God puts in front of you. And that's, you know, that's, there's a purpose in that. And that purpose is bringing people and pointing them to, to him. So that would be my response to that. It, that doesn't require a title.

Vona Johnson: 47:50

Amen. Okay. Back to you, Fritz.

Michael Fritzius: 47:53

Awesome. So Mike, this one's for you. These three are for you. You talk about the five pillars of a faith-driven retirement. Which one do people tend to overlook the most?

Michael Perez: 48:05

Yes. One thing I wanted to mention, I, a piece of advice I always give people is don't retire from something, but retire to something. I see so many That's nice. Is that yours? We probably stole it from the same person, but I'm always leery of the person when you talk to them and they go, yes, I have one year, 14 days, 36 hours until I retire. I know that's probably not gonna be good. Anyways just so everybody that listens to this knows what the five pillars are, the five pillars, and we've kind of touched on some of these is time calling. A financial finish or, let me back up. Maximizing time, discovering, embracing your calling creating a financial finish line, radical generosity and leaving a lasting legacy. So which, which one do people tend to overlook the most? I think all of them get overlooked. But the one that really jumps out to me is leave a lasting legacy. And I'll tell you why I picked that one is because if you look at the stats in the United States, two thirds of Americans have done nothing when it comes to their estate planning. And so I kind of put two and two together and said, well, if they're not even doing that, then they're probably not giving a lot of thought to legacy. And I think a lot of people don't want to deal with this. A lot of people procrastinate on it because it deals with morbidity and mortality and they don't really want to think about it. It's interesting. In, in the wealth management firm that I'm a partner in, we created this whole platform called estate mapping, which is unlike anything I've seen in all my years. And'cause I try to practice what I preach. My wife and I went through the process with one of our younger advisors and it was, it was life changing because number one, it, it, it got my wife and I talking about these things. And there were things that just came up that even from previous conversations never came up. And so I always tell people that when you do this legacy planning, as painful as it may be to you it's an act of love towards your loved ones.'cause you're basically saying, I love you so much that I just wanna make sure that everything is in order and you know, where I stand when my time is up.

Michael Fritzius: 50:40

Love it. Love it. Awesome. Over to you, Ms. Vona

Vona Johnson: 50:45

Thank you. So Mike, how do you help clients define the financial finish line in a way that feels freeing instead of restrictive?

Michael Perez: 50:56

Yeah, so one of the pillars is, is kind of a, kind of a a concept most people haven't heard of, but one of the pillars is creating a financial finish line. I was actually just on another podcast called The Finish Line Pledge. These two brothers do that, which is, is really cool. But the underlying question is this, when is enough enough? When is enough enough? I've met so many people that have more than enough and I can prove it to'em mathematically, and they still don't think they have enough. And so they live in this state of stress, in this season of life. Which is totally unnecessary. And what's interesting about having a finish line is that when you have a finish line, it naturally will lead to more contentment in your life because you're like, Hey, I got this. I'm good. I'm gonna be fine. And so when we talk about finish lines, it basically breaks down into three different things. Number one, how much will you need for you or you and your spouse? You need to get a handle on that. Number two, how much do you wanna leave for your loved ones? And number three, what are you gonna do with the excess? And so there's a little bit of tension around all three of those, but once you get a handle on it, you can get to a financial finish line and live in a place of much less stress and much more contentment.

Michael Fritzius: 52:29

Awesome.

Vona Johnson: 52:30

Love it. Thank you.

Michael Fritzius: 52:32

Excellent. Well, the last question we've got in this. Gauntlet of interrogation. I'm, I'm kidding. It's, it's been incredibly, it's been incredibly blessing. It's, it's really good. So, Mike, last question for you, sir. What's one story where someone completely shifted their retirement outlook by putting biblical principles first?

Michael Perez: 52:54

Yeah, I, I thought I thought about this question and I've got people that I'm working with that are in, you know, kind of different states of play, but I thought, you know what, probably the best example is my wife and I, I mean, we are in this, you know, this season that we're talking about. And we've been very intentional with our time. We've been very intentional with our, with our calling. We don't believe in the traditional retirement. There's a great quote by a guy named Mitch Anthony. He said, retirement is a balancing act between vacation and vacation. You know, we're not like, don't go have fun. Don't go vacation, don't, you know, don't travel. No, you should be having fun. But coming back to kind of the meaning and purpose thing, there has to be this balance between vacation and vacation and, you know, we spent a lot of time thinking about, I, I mean, it's, it's. It's always a work in progress.'cause things change, but we, we always think about the, the, the finish line. One of the things that I talk to people about that, that we're trying to live out in this season is a giving plan. A lot of people, when I ask'em, do you have a giving plan? That's that. Never really thought about that. So we're being much more intentional with our generosity. And then, as I said, we just went through a whole process, took about seven months and really leaned into the legacy thing. And it's very important for me that everything is buttoned up at the end. And I, I've lived a life that I will be remembered for the things that I wanna be remembered for.

Michael Fritzius: 54:31

Awesome. I love it. I love it. You know, I think to close us out tonight, it's, it's important to remember that it's not a morbid thing to talk about retirement. I think in the US people equate that with just have a pile of money to live on until you can coast and die. It's like, no, it's not. It's like, it, it's, it's a change. It's a seasonal change. It's not bad. It's not negative. I mean, if you think about it, we go through life retiring from one thing into another all the time. It's not the last time we're gonna retire from something into something else. But having the overall thinking ahead in terms of legacy, not waiting until you're in your sixties to start, oh shoot, I should probably build a legacy for my kids and grandkids. Oh my goodness, I wasted it. You know, that's not, that's not the goal. That's not the goal is to think ahead of it a little bit.

Vona Johnson: 55:30

May I?

Michael Fritzius: 55:32

Yeah.

Vona Johnson: 55:32

I come at it from the perspective that our legacy isn't the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Our legacy is the decisions we make every single day, the way we respond to the people in our lives. And if, if I might, my dad passed away about six weeks ago. We had to postpone this event because we were doing a funeral. And what was so beautiful about that is I had, he was an auctioneer, but the rest of his time he spent like announcing rodeos and he was the champion for all the young people. I had 50, 60-year-old women coming up to me and people coming up to me and saying, your dad inspired me in ways that no one else ever did. He made me feel like I was the best kid on that rodeo ring. And what was so cool about that is my son walked away from that service saying, that's the legacy I wanna leave to now. That's my legacy.

Michael Fritzius: 56:27

That's awesome. Mm-hmm. It is. It is. Sounds like we're all cut from the same cloth and we come from good stock.

Vona Johnson: 56:34

You guys were amazing. You, you hit the nail on the head and I'm just so blessed to have spent this time with you guys today. All of you enjoyed it. Thank you, Vona. Appreciate you everybody.

56:42

It wasn't that great. I just enjoyed that conversation so much. There were so many good tips in there that we can carry forward as you begin to think about your retirement, whether you're 20 years away from it and are looking for ways to finish well and prepare, or if you're already in. Like our guest, Michelle, was during the conversation and are just thinking of ways that you can tweak your experience to make it even more richer and fulfilling. I thank you for stopping by today. I will leave the contact information in the show notes if you wanna get ahold of any of the panelists today. I'm just so grateful for each one of them to show up and, and bring all of that wonderful information. If you are really wanting to go deeper into how you can answer God's call to more in your retirement, I invite you to join Club more. Basically you take a pledge that you're gonna be all that you can be, and then we'll just have conversations in my community, club more, you'll be a part of my, my mailing list and see where other opportunities come. I think this is an important time in our history. We don't know when our time is up. We don't know if tomorrow comes, but we do know that we need to use every minute that we have available to us to show the love of Christ. And that's what I wanna invite you into in club more and and courageous retirement, is to have the courage to speak up and say what needs to be said to show truth in love. Thank you for coming by. I'll see you back here in two weeks where we will carry on the conversation of courageous Retirement. Until then, go be blessed remember to always, always engage your faith and live your more.