55. The Pride I Never Saw: A Conversation That Changed My Heart

Sometimes the person standing between us and God's best isn't the person we're frustrated with—it's the one staring back at us in the mirror.

That's what this conversation did for me.

When I first heard Dr. Carolyn Warren Wiley's testimony, I expected to be challenged about the culture around me. Instead, I found myself convicted by my own pride.

In this honest and hope-filled conversation, Carolyn shares how Jesus transformed her life—not simply by changing her behavior, but by changing her heart. Together, we explore the difference between finding our identity in our desires versus our identity in Christ, why humility is the doorway to freedom, and how God's grace is available to every one of us.

We also discuss retirement, unexpected life transitions, and how God often uses our most difficult seasons to prepare us for our greatest purpose.

Whether you're wrestling with pride, searching for your identity, or simply longing to live more faithfully, I pray this conversation points you to the hope and transforming love of Jesus.

In this episode you'll discover:

• Why pride can quietly keep us from experiencing God's best
• The difference between behavior modification and heart transformation
• What it means to find your identity in Christ
• How to love others with both grace and truth
• Why retirement and life transitions can become a new beginning rather than an ending
• The beauty of surrendering every part of our lives to Jesus

⏱️ Chapters

00:00 Mirror Check Moment
00:22 Welcome to Courageous Retirement
01:18 Career Change at 47
03:03 Called Into Publishing
05:42 Pride, Conviction & My Birthday
06:54 Carolyn's Faith Journey
10:01 Following God's Conviction
17:54 Identity in Christ
20:41 Loving Others Well
24:04 Pride and Repentance
29:55 Restoration After Brokenness
35:43 Grace for Every Sinner
40:06 Jesus Is Enough
42:11 Resources & Final Encouragement

Find Dr. Carolyn at roseandpearl.net for information about publishing your story or find her bible studies at therubytent.com

 Check out my YouTube Channel where I post the videos of my interview shows.

 
Learn more about the show, author Vona Johnson, and more at vonajohnson.com!

Schedule a free 15 minute Your Path to More call with Vona.

Join ClubMore!

Transcript

Vona Johnson 0:00

Sometimes the person standing between us and God's best for us isn't the person who is frustrating us the most in our lives. Sometimes it's the person looking back at us in the mirror. Today, I'm going to have a conversation with Dr. Carolyn Warren Wiley, and she's gonna share her story that made me stop in my tracks and realize just that. I hope you'll join us for this conversation. Do you fear what lies beyond retirement? What if it's a gateway to a life filled with purpose, meaning, and adventure rather than an end? Discover peace and fulfillment as you boldly enter this new chapter in Courageous Retirement, a Christian podcast. I'm your host, author, and coach, Vona Johnson. Let's get started. Carolyn, I, want to welcome you to Courageous Retirement today. I have a feeling that, there's maybe just a small amount of courage that's gonna go into having this conversation.

Carolyn Wiley 0:52

Absolutely

Speaker 0:53

I'm very blessed that you do have the courage to share your story. But before we dive into the whole conversation that connected us.

Carolyn Wiley 1:03

Yeah

Speaker 1:04

the post that you made that made me reach out and say, "Hey, let's, let's connect," you shared with me when we were talking the other day, that courageous retirement is really the path that you have walked already.

Carolyn Wiley 1:17

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:18

So let's, let's talk a little bit about that transition for you and step into retirement.

Carolyn Wiley 1:24

So it doesn't look like retirement at all. It looks like a career change because I had been in the higher education space literally my entire adult life. And at 47, we had a health issue that my husband was undergoing that was requiring a lot of my time and attention, and I was an executive at a college that is in our hometown, and I knew that I couldn't lead well in that space and be there and be present and help him through the medical issue that was going on. And so I really began praying about that. He, he and I both began praying about that, and God just showed me that I needed to step away from what looked like an amazingly successful career to the outside world. But I knew internally was something that I was continuing because it was safe, because it was my safe place, because I knew I could do it. It was something I had done for literally 25 years, and God was saying, "But I've given you other skills, and I've given you other things." And so I left higher education after those 25 years and became a publisher

Vona Johnson 2:51

Wow. Now that's, you know, sometimes we take our skills and we just transfer them a little bit so that it looks a lot like what we did before. But you took a giant leap. Um-

Carolyn Wiley 3:03

Yes which, which- And especially since I was a trained mathematician- when I started telling people that I was going to do publishing, they're like, "W- wait, what?" Yeah. However, what most people who knew me knew but wasn't really connecting the dots was that I'd been a published author for 20 years. It wasn't like I had never published a book before or had no experience in the publishing industry. I have a very successful statistics textbook that I co-authored with two of my instructor besties, um, from my university days. And we had, we have an incredible book that's been on the market. We're working on our fourth edition of that book right now. Wow. And we're thrilled to be putting that out, and our publisher is incredible. And so I had seen, like, the behind-the-scenes and what it takes to bring these things to life, but I knew that, A, I would never want to compete with them. They do it well. They have taken good care of us for two decades. Like, I would never wanna compete with them. But also, that wasn't the industry that God was calling me to. He literally was telling me, "There are people's stories that I need to get out, and I'm calling you to be the person who helps them get those stories out into the world." I was like, "Okay, great." And so I start looking, like, so who are these people? And what I found actually was it was coaches and online entrepreneurs who, like me, like many of your listeners, have made a change either through retirement or through just midlife change or something has happened, you know, life circumstances, that they've been in this one career and now they're transitioning to this other one. And God gave them this incredible journey to walk through that gave them the knowledge and the skills and the expertise, and those are the stories that I'm privileged to help put out there right now.

Vona Johnson 5:02

I love that. And I, I love that you shared... You know, for me, as a Christian, as someone who wants to glorify God in my work, I love how He doesn't waste anything. No. Mm-mm. All of our experiences lead us to... What I, what I love about retirement is we have that freedom to go with Him without the limitations of a job- Mm-hmm a career. I loved my job as well, but I, again, you, you feel that, that calling that there was just something missing. Mm-hmm. There was something... There was more. There was more. I love to define it as living our more. Yes.

Carolyn Wiley 5:41

And so,

Speaker 5:42

um, I'm just so grateful that, that He brought you to me with a really interesting post. And that's what we're gonna shift to now. Um, we are recording this episode in June. We're towards the end of the month. Mm-hmm. Um, I actually saw your post at the beginning of the month when you made a comment about... Interestingly enough, what day is your birthday?

Carolyn Wiley 6:05

June 2nd.

Speaker 6:07

Okay.

Carolyn Wiley 6:07

The, the beginning of June is my birthday.

Vona Johnson 6:09

Yes. Well, my birthday is June 6th, and so I think, your post with the, the birthday candle and the pride colors caught my attention. What, what your post said that really got my attention and truly did stop me in my tracks was the whole perspective of pride. Mm-hmm. Not what some of us consider has been stolen by the rainbow and the flags and all of that.

Carolyn Wiley 6:35

Right.

Speaker 6:36

The pride that we all have in our hearts. And I was, I was truly convicted by that, and I, I really want to have a conversation with you about your path, your journey of walking through that. So where, where do we start? Where, where's a good place to start with your story?

Carolyn Wiley 6:54

So I posted that because it's just become sort of an annual tradition that on my birthday I share my own story and my own journey, which started just this very beautiful little Southern girl, typical growing up in church kind of story. Um, loving family. My parents were married 40-something years before my father passed away. Like, it just You, you would think of it as idyllic, right? And when I got to college, met a guy, felt like I had to get married to him because we had had sex out of wedlock, and that was just one of these symptoms that was beginning to show of my own pride, which was I want things my way. I want this fairy tale life. God, I'm really only actually being good because I want you to bless me. And it was very transactional.

Speaker 7:56

Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Wiley 7:57

And then so I marry the guy so I can fix it even though everyone gave me such good counsel and were like, "No," like, "Jesus has redeemed all of this. You just need to repent, not fix it. You can't fix it." And so I, I didn't do that. Um, we got married. It was, it was He was a great guy, but the two of us together were not great, and we brought out very negative things in each other, so the marriage began to deteriorate. Of course, our spiritual lives were vastly deteriorating and quickly, and had even before we got married. And I met a woman who, my age, we had a lot in common, and it just began to feel like she really understood me, and sh- you know, the only person who ever really got me, and all of these made-up things in my heart and head. And so eventually, I just got to the point where I was like, you know what? I'm turning my back on men, I'm turning my back on God, and I'm, I'm leaving all of that. Moved in with her as a friend, but it wasn't very long after that, just several months before that friendship became something much more. And I began the first of several relationships with a woman. Um, from there, was with her for a while. That relationship ended, was with someone else for a while. That relationship ended. Actually went back with her. And again, I was still so like, I want somebody to cling to, and she was lovely, and she was beautiful, and her family loved me, and you know, it just, it felt so right. And I was trying so desperately to cling to something instead of clinging to Jesus, that we went to Vermont and got married. And years go by. I have then been in this community and lifestyle for fourteen years. And I was just continuing to get more and more miserable because in my heart and in my soul, I had been saved as a, as a young child, and that Holy Spirit was just not going to let me. I mean, God will not let his children walk in sin. And so the Holy Spirit was not going to let me keep going, which I know many people be like, "Well, you went for fourteen years. That seems like a continuing in sin." And for a time period it was, but it was never something that the Holy Spirit was not convicting me about, was not telling me, "You can't do this. You can't keep doing this." And It came to a point where my wife at the time said, "I really think that we need to start praying and reading the Bible together." Because her past had been very similar to mine. And I kinda laughed, and I was like, "Well, that's not gonna lead to, like, a better marriage or, you know. Like, no, that's gonna lead to us breaking up because I know what God wants with this situation, and it is not for us to continue in this relationship." And ironically, at the time, I live in Mississippi, so in Mississippi, this was pre the Supreme Court decision that legalized marriages between two people of the same sex nationwide. We weren't considered legally married, only if we were in Vermont. So if we wanted to get divorced, we had to go to Vermont. But if I had also shown up at the courthouse and said, "Hey, I wanna marry Bob," they would have said, "You can't marry Bob. You have a marriage license in Vermont." So I was really this situation where I couldn't get divorced from her, but I couldn't marry anyone else either. And- Interesting in praying through all of that and, and really repenting and turning back to God The Supreme Court decision came down right as all of that was happening in my life that allowed for marriage nationwide, which actually allowed for me to get a divorce. So even though the LGBTQ community was celebrating the Supreme Court decision, I was celebrating it 'cause it allowed me to follow God. And that was, that was wonderful for me.

Speaker 12:25

So I think it's interesting that you said that you knew that if you started praying and getting into the Word, that that wasn't gonna lead the direction that you wanted it to. Mm-hmm. So many times we hear that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexual relationships, that, that that's just, just a lie. Um, but in your heart you, you remembered? I don't know. From, I mean, can, can we talk about that a little

Carolyn Wiley 12:56

bit? Absolutely. Because that's- And I think what you just said is the key. The Bible doesn't condemn homosexual relationships, but it does put a boundary that prevents them. Sex is intended to be between a man and a woman in covenant marriage with God. It's not intended for anyone and everyone who wants to, to feel good. It's not meant as this physical thing that we can go have a one-night stand with whoever we want, or even be in a committed relationship that's a sexual relationship with whoever we want. Because we forget that God created sex, so therefore He knows what all is involved that we as humans don't understand. Like, we don't truly understand the spiritual connection that comes with it, the soul connection that comes with it. It's not just a physical act. And so He put boundaries in place that if you go outside of these boundaries, you're not going to be doing what's best for you in my will.

Speaker 14:03

I... So it's interesting you said that it's, that it's not condemned. Um, but, but there are many places that it is.

Carolyn Wiley 14:12

So I'm- Well, and that's the word. That's the, the difference that I'm saying here. God doesn't condemn us, but He does tell us, "Don't do these things."

Speaker 14:20

Okay. Okay. So He, He condemns the action, not the person.

Carolyn Wiley 14:24

Yes. He is saying, "This act is forbidden." Right. Okay. But if you have done that act, you as a person are not condemned- Right because there is no condemnation in Christ. Okay.

Speaker 14:37

Okay. I, uh, and I misunderstood the, the first time you said that because... And I agree absolutely. Mm-hmm. And I really feel that that's a place where so much of the, the division and the misunderstanding- Exactly happens when people are, you know, it's like we, we love the people that we know who have attraction and relationships with the same sex, but we also know that that is not God's way.

Carolyn Wiley 15:07

Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 15:08

But, but there is forgiveness. Mm-hmm. And, and I, I think, I think sometimes those of us who, you know, we, we want everybody to know the freedom that we have in Christ. Mm-hmm. And sometimes I think we can go, we can be too zealous in trying to fix everybody. You used that term a little while ago. Yeah. We just wanna fix it. And, and we forget that that's not our job.

Carolyn Wiley 15:37

Exactly.

Speaker 15:38

We-

Carolyn Wiley 15:38

Exactly

Speaker 15:38

we can't fix anybody, but we can love them. You know, in my book, I t- I, I didn't actually have the conversation directly. I had permission from a friend of mine who had interviewed a man who had formerly been in-

Carolyn Wiley 15:54

Mm-hmm

Speaker 15:54

a gay relationship, and then he now is a pastor helping people to come back to Christ's way. It was such a beautiful conversation, so I put part of that conversation in my book because what I loved about his conversation was my parents didn't agree with... And he said, People don't like the term lifestyle- because it's not a lifestyle, it's who I am." Mm-hmm. Which was really compelling for me, too. But he said although they didn't agree with it, they loved me.

Carolyn Wiley 16:32

Yes.

Speaker 16:32

And they just, they just wrapped their love around me, and they introduced me to this man Jesus. Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Wiley 16:37

And

Speaker 16:38

it was Jesus who turned my heart around, not my parents, not, you know. It was, it was that love that, that brought me back to realize what, what God's love is about. And, and I, you know, I have conversations with people at different times about how, well, you know, you... Believing that, talking that way is so hateful, and it's like, no, no. We love you so much that we want you to, the term you used again, and it's true. We, we wanna confess our sins, repent of our sins, which means turn away from it, to be sorry for our sin. And we're all... I mean, every single day, I am saying and doing things that are contrary to what God wants for me, and I, I ask for forgiveness Continually, not continually, that's, that's a way overstatement. But if we're not sorry for it, if we're proud of our behavior, that's what concerns me. I believe that anybody that's listening to this, um, that is being convicted by this conversation can ask any time and over and over and over again, "Lord, I get it. Okay, I'm sorry." That's... Right?

Carolyn Wiley 17:54

Let's, let's go to the concept of identity for a second.

Speaker 17:58

Yes.

Carolyn Wiley 17:58

Because what sins do you know of that the person begins to identify with that sin as a function of their being?

Speaker 18:09

Hmm.

Carolyn Wiley 18:10

Like, there... You can, you can think of some examples, but there, there's just none more obvious where when you're a member of that community, that is your whole identity. The behavior is no longer behavior. It is who I am. The lie of it's who God made me. Well- Right He also made my dad with a propensity to drink, but my dad knew that that wasn't what was best, and so therefore limited the amount of alcohol he was around so that he would not drink. You know, like, we are made in a broken world. We are made coming into this world with tendencies towards sin. Yes. Your tendency towards sin might be gossip. My tendency towards sin was sexual sin. I just... Those are the tendencies towards sin because we were born into a broken world. Right. But when we begin identifying ourselves with that sin and saying, "Because this is something that was in me, it's now a feature instead of something that I need to deal with or something that needs to be healed or something that is not part of God's actual perfect design, but part of the fall," then it becomes something that only the Holy Spirit can sever that. Because if I am identifying this behavior as core to who I am, and you start telling me you hate the behavior, in my mind, that's the same thing as who I am. So you are telling me you hate me

Speaker 19:52

Yeah. Yeah

Carolyn Wiley 19:54

Because to me, those are the same thing. And so it is only when the Holy Spirit disconnects those two things that someone can even hear that you love them and don't like what they're doing. I love that. That is why people in this community, even though we love them and we're trying to say that we love them, the minute we say we don't approve, don't agree, or that the Bible says they shouldn't be doing this act, we are telling them that we don't approve of them, that we hate them, that we don't love. That's what they're hearing. It's not what we're saying. It's not our heart.

Speaker 20:37

Right.

Carolyn Wiley 20:38

But that's what they are experiencing

Speaker 20:41

So in my mind, and maybe I've oversimplified this, one of the things that I, I struggle with across the board is people who have basically walked away from scripture.

Carolyn Wiley 20:54

Mm-hmm,

Speaker 20:54

mm-hmm. Because it doesn't, it doesn't tell them what it wants them to. So it's like that- Exactly you know, that dirty old book doesn't, it's not keeping up with the world today. Mm-hmm. And, if we can get people past that mindset and truly get into the living, breathing Word of God, I believe that that's the opportunity for the Holy Spirit to really start working on someone's soul- Exactly and help them. I believe that the Spirit brings people into our lives that will start-

Carolyn Wiley 21:21

Mm-hmm

Speaker 21:22

chipping away, start planting the seeds of doubt, the questions that will, you know, that will draw them to the right place, the right person, the right situation. Um, I'm a, a huge fan of Dale Tackett, um, who did The Truth Project and The Engagement Project, and I love his perspective of God really meant love your neighbors.

Carolyn Wiley 21:45

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 21:46

Not, not the people across the ocean, not the people in a different state, the people that he planted in, you know, north, south, east, west of where you live- Mm-hmm and work every day. And, and that, you know, he talks about, you know, he has a child that has separated from him. They, they- Hmm no longer have communication.

Carolyn Wiley 22:07

Yeah.

Speaker 22:08

And he says, "You know, I pray that they aren't gonna listen to me, but I pray that maybe that person that lives across the, hallway or across the street will be the person that will help them go, 'Oh, yeah. Yeah.'" You know, they'll see that post one day. Who knows, who knows how God will use the opportunities out there. Absolutely. But truly our prayer is just that the people that we love will open their minds to a different view, the name of my book.

Carolyn Wiley 22:40

Absolutely. Exactly. And I will say this too, when it comes to loving someone well who is walking in, and I will still use the word lifestyle, and because that doesn't necessarily mean LGBTQ. Right. It could be alcoholic. It could be drug abuse. It could, it could be gossiping. It could be, you know, not walking with Jesus, whatever that looks like. It, whatever. Right. So you love this person, and they are not walking with Jesus, and you know that the way that they are acting is not in that keeping. It's gonna break your heart, and you're gonna wanna go and tell, like- You can't do, you shouldn't do this. Or that is just gonna push them away because it's the love of God and his mercy and grace that draws people to him. So then how do we love them well? We invite them to dinner. We sit and ask them what sports team they like. We get to know them as a human being. We so- show up and wash their feet metaphorically. Right. Or literally, if that's what's needed. You know, like whatever it, it, we just show up, and we love them. Because here's the thing, if we are following Jesus, if we are, are following scripture, and they know that we're following scripture just by how we're living our lives, they're going to know we don't agree. You don't have to tell them. They're going to know. And that was what changed for me because at the beginning, like day one of my parents finding out what was going on, my mother was just heartbroken, angry, weeping. "I can't believe you're doing this. Don't you know this is wrong? I've raised you better." And honestly, I was thinking, "Well, duh. Yeah, I know you know." Like, of course. Like, you haven't changed just because I'm now doing this. Like, that didn't suddenly magically change your belief system of, you know, 50 years. And the more she harped and the more she pressed, there became a point kind of in the middle where I didn't really wanna be doing this anymore.

Speaker 24:45

Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Wiley 24:45

But I didn't want her to be right either And so I didn't repent yet because I was walking in pride. I didn't want to be wrong, and I didn't want her to be right. And God showed me how pride had, from the very beginning, been the root of all of my sexual sin, is I wanna do things my way, and I don't want you to tell me what I can and can't do.

Speaker 25:12

And I, I think that that's a great transition to that part of the conversation because pride isn't something that's just wrapped up in our sexual sin. It's been 10 years almost since I retired from that great career that we talked about before, and it, it didn't take me all of the 10 years, but it took me a big part of the 10 years to realize how much pride I had wrapped my identity in being a success. Mm-hmm. Being someone who is right, someone who, um, gets recognition- Mm-hmm and has the titles and the, the authority and all the things. And I just feel like God has just stripped me of all of those things that I had so much pride in, um, a- and realized that- Yeah that He's really all I need. He has provided everything I need. Until we get to the point where we can humble ourselves anything that we think about more than we think about Jesus will become an idol. And, and those things that we put our pride in are, are that, right?

Carolyn Wiley 26:36

Exactly. And that it goes for sexuality as well, regardless if we're talking about- Right, right homosexuality or heterosexuality. Because if you are literally saying, "I am more interested in finding someone who I love, who loves me than I am in surrendering to Jesus," then that sexuality, hetero or homo, becomes more important to you than that surrender. And so that phrase that you just said about we have to humble ourselves, it's all about humility and surrender, acknowledging that God is God. He is actually the author and creator of life, and therefore He alone has the right to decide how I should live my life, and what is good and what is bad. And it's not unloving for Him to make those decisions. He made us. But if we're not willing to acknowledge that He is the creator or that He does have the right to set rules, even rules we don't agree with, don't like- Yeah don't understand, He ma- He made the universe. He gets to set the rules. If we're not willing to admit or acknowledge or surrender to that, that is literally the definition of pride. It is putting ourself in the place of God and saying, "I know better. I know that a good, loving God wouldn't actually do that." Well, He is good, He is loving, and He did do that. So one of the two of you are wrong, and I'm betting it's not the God who created

Speaker 28:12

the universe. And that's another really great point. Um, I've heard too many times that the God of love would never punish us for anything. For

Carolyn Wiley 28:22

loving someone- Right regardless of their- Right. Yeah.

Speaker 28:26

Yeah.

Carolyn Wiley 28:26

He would. He would also punish us for a white lie.

Speaker 28:30

I spent a lot of time just in the Word and in prayer today Mm-hmm preparing for this conversation because, it's a hard conversation- Yeah to have. People don't, don't want to think of it this way because of our pride, right?

Carolyn Wiley 28:43

Uh, exactly.

Speaker 28:44

But I the thought that kept coming up for me is pride cometh before the fall. Yes.

Carolyn Wiley 28:50

And it so did for me.

Speaker 28:53

And then, in 1 John 1:8, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves," our pride just it gets us into trouble so many times. And it started in the Garden of Eden. It started in the

Carolyn Wiley 29:05

garden. "Did

Speaker 29:05

God, did God really say..." Yes.

Carolyn Wiley 29:09

But let's-

Speaker 29:10

And is God... Go ahead.

Carolyn Wiley 29:11

I was gonna say, but let's look at this too. Pride comes before destruction. But what do we have to have in order to rid us of that pride? Destruction of ourself. Ah. We have to come to the end of ourself, and there be a rock bottom where you really and truly know, "Maybe I'm not the smartest person around here. Maybe what I think is right isn't actually. Maybe the way I want to do things isn't what's best for me." Mm. When that destruction happens and it takes you to the bottom of yourself, you realize that was necessary to rebuild

Speaker 29:55

Are you willing to share us a little bit of how you hit that, bottom of destruction?

Carolyn Wiley 30:01

And literally for me, it was all emotional. Like from the outside, people looking could tell I was depressed, but there wasn't any dramatic something happening. But internally, I was to the point that I hadn't acted on any suicidal thoughts or actions, but I was, I was there. I was like if, if I wanted to allow myself to go there, I could have gone there. Because emotionally, I was just wrecked. I was j- I didn't wanna keep doing this. There was nothing about this that I liked. I just, I was done with life. I was done with everything. And God just didn't allow me to take those steps. He's like, "No, that's, we're not, we're not doing that." And I, I looked at my then wife and said, "I can't keep doing this. I've, I've got to leave." And so we divorced. And I went from executive at a college, beautiful big two-story house to a little bitty tiny apartment that I didn't even have furniture in. I had a blanket and a pillow and a lawn chair, you know. And it was very, very humbling, but it was the best thing in the world. And just slowly rebuilt as God provided things back in place. And so it has just been an incredible journey since then. But had He not allowed me to get to that place of just absolute emotional wreckage, I wouldn't have wanted to change

Speaker 31:37

You hear all the time, well, God doesn't... He's not going to allow bad things to happen to us. Oh,

Carolyn Wiley 31:44

but he does.

Speaker 31:45

But he does.

Carolyn Wiley 31:45

Yeah, he says so in his word.

Speaker 31:50

And, a- a- and I've so many times said, you know, if everything in life was always perfect and went the way we thought it would, we, we would think we didn't need God.

Carolyn Wiley 31:59

Well, and God is a loving, good father, okay? I am now married. I have a... to a husband, to a guy named Brian, who is amazing. We have a beautiful eight-year-old daughter. I get to share in mothering his older three kids from his first marriage. So I, we have four, and it's just been incredible. And so I can tell you, having raised the older ones since they were, like, six, eight, and 10, and then our own, who's now about to turn nine, it is not loving to let them walk in something that you know is going to be harmful for them. So if you are a parent who loves your child and you see them trying to experiment with drugs, you're gonna throw a fit. You are gonna throw an absolute fit. If they... Just go simpler. If they lie to you, you're probably gonna throw a fit, right? Now, how that looks and what that discipline looks like is going to be different for a parent who's being loving and kind and trying to direct the actions and behavior and thoughts and heart posture of their child versus a parent who's just trying to control what their kid is doing, right? Those actions are gonna be very different. But a loving parent is not gonna let their child lie to them. So then how can we say a father, a God who loves us, wouldn't tell us what we could or couldn't do, wouldn't tell us that we can't love this person? Well, if I know that person, loving that person... Let me say that. Loving that person, 'cause the person's perfectly fine, beautiful, lovely. But if loving that person is going to lead you to destruction, well, he's not gonna want you to love that person in that way. And God is also a God of restoration. All of those relationships that I was in that God had to dismantle and destroy because of the form that that relation took, took, He has restored every one of them into a form that is holy towards Him. So now I get to still have all of those people in my life as beautiful friends and love family members, but they're not in that same relationship to me as they had been when that was an incorrect relationship

Speaker 34:21

So you're saying that you, you have a, a relationship with your former

Carolyn Wiley 34:25

wife? Yeah, and my former ex-girlfriend too. In fact- Oh, I love it my eight-year-old has gone swimming at her house. And her child, who's now an adult woman, thinks of my kid as her baby sister, and they go do things together and have shopping trips together, and you know, it was- Love it it was crazy. At her, at her daughter's wedding, my husband and I were there. My child was a flower girl. She was there. She has a new partner. She was there with her partner, you know? And it was just beautiful because God is a God of restoration and relationships, and He does want you in relationship with His other image-bearers, even if they're messing up and He wishes they wouldn't

Speaker 35:10

The reality is that we don't judge. We don't get to decide. It's not our final say. But truly, we are trying to love the people in our lives, and we are trying to help them from stepping off that cliff, if you will, into eternal damnation. Um, you know, and you hear, "Well, God would never allow that to happen." And I don't think He wants to. I think He is a loving God, and He wants everyone. And that's why He gave us Jesus. Exactly. Exactly. I was talking to a woman a while back, and she's interested in learning more about faith but She said, "I just really struggle though because I hate to think that I could go to heaven and that somebody like, you know, Charles Manson could be there or Hitler or... You know, I don't, I don't wanna be there with those kind of sinners." And I'm like, "Ooh." You know? Um, and the reality is that they can be there. If, if they ask for forgiveness of their sins and sincerely mean it, they will be there. And, and that's a wonderful thing because

Carolyn Wiley 36:24

that means- Exactly. We should desire that

Speaker 36:27

Because that means that you and I, we are forgiven for all of the things that we stumble on all the time. Well,

Carolyn Wiley 36:34

and can I, can I step on my brother's and sister's toes for a minute? When we're feeling that way, that's pride. It's saying, "My sin's not as bad as yours, so you shouldn't have the right- Right and access to this that I should have." It, it's pride. Right. It's all pride.

Speaker 36:54

And we want, we want to, well, you know, my sin's down here, and theirs is up here, and God looks at them all, and they're all the same. And He gave us all the same solution to it. Mm-hmm. Um, and what's beautiful is it literally can be our last breath.

Carolyn Wiley 37:13

Yes, exactly. The thief on the cross.

Speaker 37:17

I don't wanna, I don't wanna make that... I'm just not that big of a risk-taker. No,

Carolyn Wiley 37:21

no, no, no, no, no. I- 'Cause you don't know if this really is your last breath or not.

Speaker 37:24

Right. Right. And, uh, and I might not have the opportunity for that last- Mm-hmm moment confession. But I just, uh, to me, it's so important to help people realize that it's... And we all, we all have our path. We all have our journey, and we're all in different places, we come to different places, and it's not gonna look the same. Fortunately, both of my grandmothers were strong women of faith. Um, and I'm just really blessed to have them as, uh, um, their, the legacy of faith that they left. But I also know that pretty much all of us have, at some point or another, walked away from- Mm-hmm what, what would be God's will for our life. And, and this particular aunt, um, hadn't been to a church for a long time. I mean, there were... And I was really struggling because she was dying. And I went to my pastor, and, and he reminded me. He said, "You know, there are sparrows, and there are robins, and there are eagles, and the Lord God loves them all." Mm-hmm. And he, and it was... That just brought me so much peace. It was like, she doesn't have to quote scripture. She doesn't have to sit in a pew every week, but she needs to trust. Mm-hmm. She needs to trust. And that's where our pride gets in the way because we wanna be in control. We

Carolyn Wiley 38:44

want to be in

Speaker 38:44

control. Right?

Carolyn Wiley 38:45

And we want to be- Yeah in control because of our fear, because of our insecurity. If I don't know what's gonna happen or I'm scared what could happen, then I feel like, well, if I'm in control and can control it, then that thing won't happen. But the truth is, and this is, you know, scary for someone who wants that control to even think about, is any level of control we have is just an illusion. God is the only one in control. And so it's only when we trust Him that we don't have to have that fear and insecurity about what's going to happen or what could happen.

Speaker 39:24

So true. And, and again, we've zeroed in on the, the sexual sin of it, but there's... We have greed, we have, uh, you know, just there's so many different aspects and, and people have a re- I mean, we are not of this world. Mm-hmm. We are in this world. Mm-hmm. And, and there are so many things that, you know, the, the false prophets that are going to take us away from what God's truth really says. And, um, you know, we... There's so many people that, you know, they're, they're in church every week, and they're checking the boxes off, but they're not living- Yes the word. And that's where my heart is. You know, y- y- in your group, you know, you, you're like, "What's, what's your mission? What's your purpose?" And that's it. I want people to really know the relationship. It's not, it's not just the, the knowing, it's the living.

Carolyn Wiley 40:24

Absolutely. And when you really rest in God, and you draw your identity from him, there's so much that changes, and you realize that Jesus is that ultimate prize. And even if he didn't bless you with anything else, like you never got a spouse, you never got someone who loved you or you were able to love, you never got a child, you never had any of these external blessings, he is enough.

Speaker 40:51

Right.

Carolyn Wiley 40:51

And so it's, it's not about a, we want you to come and get to know Jesus because then you'll be heterosexual, and you, you won't... Like, I don't care. Like, I, I don't care if you ever are married. I don't care. I want you to know Jesus 'cause there's nothing better

Speaker 41:11

Yes

Carolyn Wiley 41:11

And the sad thing is there are many, many people who are sitting in our church pews today who are not acting like Jesus is good even, much less the ultimate prize. They're preaching through their actions and their words this gospel of, "If you don't get married and have kids, you haven't arrived." And- Mm maybe that's just me living in the South that sees it that way, but- that is just, it's heartbreaking to me because that's not the ultimate be all.

Speaker 41:46

Yeah. See, and I've, I've not heard that perspective before, but it You, you hear the prosperity. Yes. You know, if you just follow him and do what he says, he will be giving you all the riches you ever wanted. And the riches are in, in the peace and the joy that we get, not the, a balance in our checkbook.

Carolyn Wiley 42:04

Exactly.

Speaker 42:05

Which is a whole nother

Carolyn Wiley 42:06

conversation-

Speaker 42:06

A whole

Carolyn Wiley 42:07

different conversation- for another day that we

Speaker 42:09

can't get into today, yes. Not today. Oh, this has been so lovely and, and I feel like we could go on for, for a very long time. Um, but first of all, if someone is like, "Oh, I, I really, really like what I'm hearing here, and I want to get to know Carolyn better," how, how could they reach you? How could they find you?

Carolyn Wiley 42:30

So two ways. If you are interested in the sharing your own story and working with someone who can help you write that book for your business, that would be at roseandpearl.net. That's my publishing company, and there are amazing list of free resources. So I would connect you there. For someone that's really resonating with my story and my faith journey, go over to our ministry arm, which is therubytent.com. And in fact, we even have a course for Christians, specifically Christian parents, whose child is walking in this particular sin.

Speaker 43:10

Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Wiley 43:10

Like, how do I love them well as they are doing this? Because we have a tendency to go to one extreme or the other of I'm not gonna talk to them at all, or I'm going to just accept them and say that it's wonderful and okay. Neither of those is accurate. There is a middle ground that's actually completely laid out in 1 Corinthians 13, and my mother and I join together in that course, and you hear both of our perspectives, and we walk you through that chapter- Oh and talk about how can you love this prodigal child God's way?

Speaker 43:46

Oh, I love that. That's, that's beautiful. Thanks for, thanks for sharing that with us. I, I'm, I'm gonna have to go check that out, and I will put links in the show notes for, for folks who wanna follow up with that. So thank you. So Carolyn, is there anything that you maybe thought was a message that you needed to share that we haven't touched on yet today? Is there any lasting, last words that you wanna leave us with as we close up this conversation? I

Carolyn Wiley 44:13

think the main thing is, as a Christian, really paying attention to how you're showing up online to the other image-bearers of God on this planet who may not yet be followers of Jesus. Because if your default reaction on social media, just as an example, is to yell, scream, and holler and tell them they're going to hell, that is not displaying the love of Christ that will draw them to repentance. If you really desire their best and want them to repent and follow Jesus, love them, and sometimes loving them looks like keeping our mouth shut.

Speaker 44:55

Hmm. Yes. Amen. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful place to end this conversation, so thank you so much for joining me today. It's just really been a blessing to, to have this conversation, and I'm just so grateful that, that you listened to that Holy Spirit as He started chipping away at the pride that you were holding in your heart. Yeah,

Carolyn Wiley 45:17

I'm so grateful that He was still talking to me.

Speaker 45:21

And I'm grateful that honestly, that you, you showed me where my pride might be chipping away a little bit too. I mean, it's always gonna be there. There's always going to be temptations, and we're just not perfect people. Exactly. I'll leave the links in the show notes, but, this has just really been a blessing for me, and I hope that it has been for you. If you know of someone who needs to hear this conversation, please, tag them, share it with them however you see fit. This will be both on YouTube and on any podcast platform for Courageous Retirement. So I just wanna thank you for stopping by today and joining us in this conversation.. I will see you back here in two weeks with another message. I'm not sure which one's coming up, but we'll we'll get there. Um, but just, just remember to always, always live your more and just know that your best season may just now be beginning.