Marriage Health with James & Teri Craft
With backgrounds in therapy and coaching, James and Teri Craft help your marriage through issues with communication, intimacy, conflict, or if you're just fighting to fall back in love with your partner. Aside from their certifications, the reason why James and Teri are so passionate about helping your marriage through challenges is because they've walked through the hardest things in their marriage and they wouldn't have made it if it weren't for help.
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Marriage Health with James & Teri Craft
Can Your Marriage Survive Narcissism? We asked Expert Darren F. Magee
Can relationships with narcissistic spouses be transformed, or are they destined for turmoil? Explore the nuanced dynamics of marriages plagued by narcissism and discover the potential for change through incentives and boundaries. We discuss how partners can foster self-awareness and transformation in their relationships by encouraging accountability and seeking guidance from experts like Darren F. Magee, whose expertise sheds light on managing narcissistic behaviors effectively.
Healing from betrayal and navigating a relationship with a narcissistic partner can be a daunting journey. Uncover the spectrum of narcissism and its impact on relationships, including the dangerous traits of the dark tetrad. We address the crucial steps toward safety and the role of therapy in managing the complex interplay of betrayal and manipulation. Learn how therapists can facilitate healing and help partners reclaim control over their emotional well-being.
Establishing boundaries after betrayal is a challenge that requires clear communication and a structured approach. Our episode provides a roadmap for betrayed partners to articulate their needs and establish a repair plan, empowering them to set healthy boundaries while respecting the autonomy of their partner. Discover our comprehensive 10-part program, designed to guide couples through crisis and offer continued support for those seeking deeper insights and coaching opportunities.
If you feel like you might need coaching our counseling, please visit https://www.livelifeunplugged.org/contact
If somebody is with a narcissist spouse, is there any power that a spouse has to bring about change in that relationship?
Speaker 2:Well, there are some things we cannot control. We cannot control other people. We cannot change other people. A motivation for changing anybody is incentive. So if someone is behaving in a particular way and they keep on getting away with it, that's really just enabling it. They can lie, blame, shift shift, feign terrible illnesses, they can talk about their traumatic past and all the rest of it, almost like it's a get out of jail free card, right yeah but when someone has maybe had enough, you know I'm done with this.
Speaker 2:Nothing ever works, nothing ever changes, no matter what I do. Someone might get to the point where they're thinking you know, damn, I'd maybe better do something here, because they're serious this time. So there may be incentive there. The difficulty is when it comes to narcissistic personality. There can be a sense of desperation, fear of rejection, so that can incentivize some kind of change. The difficulty is, once the immediate danger passes, they start to maybe revert back to tight.
Speaker 1:Marriage Health with James and Terry Craig. If somebody is married to a narcissist, is their marriage just a lost cause? No, Does that mean that they just have to endure being married to a narcissist? Have you and James worked with couples where narcissism is present in a relationship with one or both of the spouses, and you've actually seen a change?
Speaker 4:I have worked with clients who there are some narcissistic tendencies that have been identified and acknowledged. That's the key Identified and acknowledged, acknowledged. That's the key identified and acknowledged and there is a commitment to work through that and step into a process and there has been changed.
Speaker 5:There has to be awareness around it, and this is where a well-trained coach or professional therapist or counselor can help with that, if there's a willingness to do so. If there's no willingness, yes, it can be very destructive for your marriage, down to a place where you finally just want to give up because you're tired of being on the end, of always being the one wrong or being ridiculed or treated poorly and not cared for, and so it's important you want to have both sides aware of it.
Speaker 4:Here's the deal. So when somebody has a way of adapting to the world with a narcissistic injury and I like to call that a narcissistic injury, If it can be acknowledged like yes, you're right, what I'm doing is causing impact on other people's lives, Somebody who realizes they have a limp, that this limp is not just a limp, it's actually a weapon that can really hurt people. And I don't want to hurt people, I don't want to do that anymore, but I keep doing it and I really, truly that's not what I want to do. At that point you're dealing with somebody who has the capacity to change or the capacity to want to change. That's the difference. So if somebody can't get awareness around it and can't acknowledge it, it likely won't change.
Speaker 1:Tucked away in a quiet town in ireland. One of the most prolific experts in the world on narcissism, darren f mcgee, makes videos on every facet of this personality disorder. Wives and husbands who have narcissistic spouses turn to darren's videos to find answers. Licensed counselors, when they receive clients who are narcissists, stumble upon Darren's videos, because even professionals can need help when it comes to narcissism. What is your impression of Darren McGee?
Speaker 4:He doesn't sensationalize a topic, so he comes at it in a very balanced, researched, knowledgeable perspective.
Speaker 5:I love how. I like how chill he is. I can only imagine the people he works with and his personality is what he needs to have. But man is direct. It's with authority he speaks direct.
Speaker 2:When I started out first of all, I did not think I would be talking about narcissism. I started during the lockdown and I just wanted to talk about mental health related things, relationships and so on. Yeah, but the majority of the questions because I leave my channel open for people to ask for content want me to talk about just the majority is narcissism. What I wanted to do and I've stuck with that throughout. Now I know sometimes my sarcasm comes through, I'll admit oh, we love it. Yeah, um, I wanted to talk about it without the drama, without the intrigue yeah, yeah do you know what I mean without the sensationalism?
Speaker 2:yes, because I think there are so many channels out there that are judged. You know, yeah, the narcissist is possessed. They have laser beam eyes yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:it's no, it's not, it's a dysfunctional personality yes, yeah yeah do you think that if a spouse has narcissism or strong narcissistic tendencies, does that mean that their partner should lead a relationship? Is a relationship a lost cause?
Speaker 2:A word I never use in therapy is should. Like most things, narcissism exists on a spectrum. Sometimes you get someone who is just very self-absorbed. They're pretty much obsessed with themselves. They can be quite selfish and so on, and they might like empathy. They're not necessarily bad people, right? That would, I suppose, move right up the scale to where someone maybe has a full-blown personality disorder. The clue is in the word disorder and the disorder the way I characterized it is having a huge impact on just even just their day-to-day functioning. Yeah, as well as with their relationships with other people, as much as with themselves. And you think of narcissism.
Speaker 2:Narcissism is characterized by even even setting aside the diagnostic criteria. It's characterized by having a huge sense of entitlement. They believe they are deserving of special attention, special treatment and so on. They can be highly disagreeable. There's a huge resistance, sometimes a huge sensitivity to anything, not just criticism, but anything that could be considered as criticism. There's a constant need for validation again, special attention. So you have those characteristics with narcissism. When they're comorbid with the other things, that would be on what's known as the dark tetrad. You would have psychopathy and that's characterized by being callous. Yeah.
Speaker 2:There is a disregard for the well-being and the safety of other people. There's a can be like a lot of antisocial behavior and almost like a parasitic kind of lifestyle. Yeah, but then again, on the dark tetrad, there's also Machiavellianism, and this has been very, very manipulative, very sneaky, and again, because of the things like the lack of empathy, it's believing that the end justifies the means, whatever it is. They do whatever lie they tell they're entitled to do so, they have to do so whatever. And again there's no conscience. I have to do so, whatever. And again there's no conscience. And lastly, there's sadism, and sadism is, to characterize it I would just say cruelty. Now, it's inflicting cruelty on others, either to control them or just for their own pleasure.
Speaker 2:It's either inflicting it, or even just enjoying seeing other people in pain and misery. It, or even just enjoying seeing other people in pain and misery, yeah, yeah, wow. So when those three things are coexisting with the narcissism, you have quite a dangerous combination. Yeah Right.
Speaker 4:And obviously somebody is going to feel unsafe and that's going to, you know, obviously manifest in a lot of issues in their own life and their own body, to the point where they would reach out and say you know, should I or can I write at that point, and and and when the safety is is degraded to that level we don't use, should though.
Speaker 3:Maybe, not in that case, but yeah, no, I hear you though, cause yeah.
Speaker 4:Sometimes in the, the, in the safety realm, there is a you know there is a should moment. You know that they should move towards safety. Yeah, yeah other times.
Speaker 2:As I say, you just might have someone who's selfish. They're self-absorbed, they they like to be the center of attention. It's all about how special they are. They've got the best toys of the most interesting stories. They are the. They've got the best toys of the most interesting stories. They are the funniest person in the room. They're the most important person in the room and sometimes that they can be something of a pest, but it can be quite manageable, yeah.
Speaker 4:Right, right. They may have a capacity to change.
Speaker 5:Darren. So, talking about you know we have a say. A couple comes to you or comes to us and you have one that has betrayed their spouse in some form. Maybe it's some kind of sexual addiction, it's a betrayal in the marriage or even go outside sexual, maybe it's financial or there's other secrecies behind the scenes that come out as betrayal in their marriage and all of a sudden they're faced with the reality of the person who is the narcissist who actually did all the behavior, that betrayal. They. Yeah, I want to get help. I want to. I don't want to lose my marriage. I don't want to lose this, because I noticed a lot with narcissists. They don't want to have that sense of abandonment or being left alone either. You know so. They'll manipulate gaslight. They'll do everything they can to keep their environments intact and in control. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 5:So, speaking into that, I'd love to hear your thoughts on. You know, when a couple comes to that, how do you work with a narcissist who wants to be in control of the healing process? You know who wants to be in control of well, and a lot of times, if it doesn't make sense to them, they're not willing to move forward, to go down that path they're like well, it doesn't make sense. Why are we doing this? You know, and so how do you approach that? Because I think that's a lot. A lot of people do face that in their healing journey well, this is the thing about betrayal.
Speaker 2:You are never betrayed by your enemies. You're only ever betrayed by the people you trust yeah, those that you trust that's a good comment. So case of a partner um, I mean betrayal can happen for many different reasons.
Speaker 1:It doesn't just have to be narcissism the most common reason that brings couples to marriage. Health is one thing, betrayal trauma. When betrayal trauma occurs in the marriage an affair, deception, cheating of any kind, even discovery of a pornography addiction a lot of people around you might say leave your spouse immediately, just go. And in some cases that might not be wrong. Others might expect you to go to two or three couples counseling sessions and then push it down and never bring it up again. And if there's abuse in your relationship, that's definitely not correct. But are those your only two options Leave or push it down? Marriage House believes it's okay to hope for option number three a miracle. A miracle that two people can go into a process and come out the other side completely unrecognizable. So many of you have reached out to us for help and not all of you feel ready for coaching, so we decided to create a 10-part program just for you.
Speaker 5:They cheated, they had an affair. You found out they have an addiction. I don't know what the crisis is that you're facing, but it's your reality.
Speaker 4:We want to hold that very carefully, because we understand how delicate and how difficult that is. You may have so many questions what am I supposed to do? What next? What now?
Speaker 5:Stop, allow yourself to breathe a little bit right now. What we want you to do is be present right now. Be present with yourself, because you are important.
Speaker 4:I do this every day. I do this every single day, and you're not the only one. So it's okay. It's okay to take the steps that you need to take to care for yourself.
Speaker 1:What now? The couple's guide to surviving crisis in marriage. Because we want everyone to be able to get this, we're discounting the price for the next several weeks and if, in the future, you feel like coaching is what you need from James or Terry or any one of the coaches at Marriage Health, the price of your course will be discounted from your first session. We just want you to have the support you need. Go to marriagehealthorg, slash what now, or find the link in the description.
Speaker 2:You are never betrayed by your enemies. You're only ever betrayed by the people you trust or those that you trust.
Speaker 4:That's a good comment.
Speaker 2:So in the case of a partner, I mean betrayal can happen for many different reasons. It doesn't just have to be narcissism. There could be communication difficulties. You mentioned financials, so you might have someone who is struggling financially. They could I don't know some kind of addiction gambling addiction or something like that so there could be shame. I don't know some kind of addiction gambling addiction or something like that so there could be shame. So there can be different things going on there that's difficult enough to work with. But then there's other times, and even when it comes to infidelity it doesn't even have to be sexual, you know there can be. People would maybe go on dating apps. They just love the attention, they love the thought of someone you know chasing them, finding them attractive and so on. So they're enjoying that and they might not necessarily see anything wrong with that because in their heads they're not actually doing anything.
Speaker 5:Yeah, they always cross the line.
Speaker 2:You know I would look at that the same way as pornography. You know you're still lusting and fantasizing and there's something about your partner. You could be the partner could be feeling you know what's wrong with me? Am I not enough? Yeah, right. So there's a lot of different aspects to that, but whenever it comes to someone trying to control the therapy if you want to put it that way Well, you see, this is the thing about therapy I always say it's the client's process, it's not mine.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:When there's two people in the room, yeah, they're going to have to not just talk about things they're uncomfortable with, but they're going to have to talk about things they're uncomfortable with in front of the other person. Yeah, and that can make it even harder, so you might have someone maybe trying to set the agenda or steering away from something. So it's really about there's different ways of doing this. I could keep you here for a fortnight trying to think of the myriad of different ways, but there's different ways of trying to encourage a sense of safety. Yeah, that people can say something, and maybe say it in a way that's not necessarily overly accusing, because that just causes people to become defensive. Yeah, but saying what they're thinking, saying what they're feeling, saying what their experiences are, saying the impact these things are having on them, making sure they're heard, but also giving the other person a chance to respond yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:It's the if you will. It's. I'm pragmatic by nature. I do not have a guidebook on what makes a good relationship. Okay, if I could give people a list of 10 things to go and do and have a better life, I would make one session charge a fortune. That's right. That's not how it works. But I am pragmatic in the sense of what makes a relationship work, what makes it healthy. One of the things I I wouldn't say this is the biggest, maybe it is the biggest thing. One of the biggest problems I find in relationships, regardless of what's going on, it usually comes down to the communication. So it's encouraging some kind of communication where people do get to express themselves, and not just express themselves but to make sure the other person is actually listening, actively listening to what's going on and responding honestly, that can take a while, yeah, because, again, people can be very hurt.
Speaker 2:They can be very defensive, yeah, but it can't be worth it in the long run. I'm not even sure if I answered your question that's good, I like it, I like it.
Speaker 1:If somebody is in a very unhealthy cycle with a narcissist spouse and say it is somebody with a manageable range of narcissism, how would someone even initiate change or desire for change? Is there any power that a spouse has to bring about change in that relationship?
Speaker 2:well, there are some things we cannot control. We cannot control other people. We cannot change other people. The most we can do, I believe, is influence and encourage. We can motivate things like that. What I've noticed a motivation for changing anybody is incentive. So if someone is behaving in a particular way and they keep on getting away with it, that's really just enabling it. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, they can lie, blame, shift, they can feign terrible illnesses, they can talk about their traumatic past and all the rest of it, almost like it's a get out of jail free card right, yeah um, but when someone has maybe had enough, they're done, they're up to here and you know that's it.
Speaker 2:You know I'm done with this. Nothing ever works, nothing ever changes. No matter what I do, someone might get to the point where they're thinking you know, damn, I'd maybe better do something here, because they're serious this time. Yeah. So there may be incentive there. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's true. The difficulty is when it comes to narcissism, narcissistic personality. There can be a sense of desperation, james, as you said earlier on. There's the fear of rejection, things like that. Yeah, um, so that can incentivize some kind of change. The difficulty is whenever something is so deeply ingrained. Once the immediate danger if you want to call it the immediate danger passes, they start to maybe revert back to type. So it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of commitment. I'm not saying that narcissistic people cannot change. What I would say is it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of commitment, but it also would take support from people around them to encourage them, to keep motivating them yeah.
Speaker 4:And I, I, I like the way that you're using the word encourage, encouragement. You know, and and I've heard different people, you know, in the mental health field you know, sometimes they'll say, you know, we sort of tap on that, you know, as we walk through life, or we, you know, sort of expose that in a gentle way. Um, you know, because sometimes these things aren't necessarily, you know, conscious when they're happening, um, in in the the lower levels of of the acuity, but, um, you know, I think that it's really important. What you're kind of touching on as boundaries basically is you know, if I'm going to have a boundary as the partner, I have to be consistent with the boundary. I have to be consistent with, you know, my saying what's okay and what's not okay, and that might cause some pain in terms of like, hey, I can't just say and do what I want anymore, um, and that maybe that pain point might, might bring some change if they just, you know, so choose to walk that path. But it's it's only going to really work over time and with support.
Speaker 4:So it can't just be me and my partner per se. I can have really good boundaries, but at the end of the day, it's really great when there's a third party that's right, like yourself, you know, a counselor, a coach or whatever it is that somebody that's speaking into that that's saying, hey, did you notice that there? Hey, you know, like, let's, let's talk about how what you, how you said that impacted your partner there. Did you notice what you know is going on there? And you know how are you feeling about that and all of that? And you know, obviously some people will say I didn't even notice that that happened. Or maybe I did notice that I was hoping that I'd back them down. You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 4:It's that constant kind of working through that transformation process Is it. You know, but it takes time.
Speaker 5:Is it something that a narcissist doesn't see it? Or they just don't know it that it's happening?
Speaker 2:Well, that really depends on how self-aware they are. Well, like any of us really how self-aware are we about? Different things. A lot of what we do is unconscious or driven by unconscious drivers, if you will. It really depends on where they are. I mean, there are some people. If you were to say to them you know, hey, you're a narcissist, they'll look at you blankly. What's? That, what does?
Speaker 2:that even mean you tell someone else you're a narcissist and they'll say, yeah, and I'm a pretty damn good one, aren't I Do? You know what I mean? It really depends on, I guess, where they are. Some people might recognize that they get to the point where they recognize their problems may, or their behavior may be causing problems Again, so that can encourage some kind of change. But other people, they might recognize their behaviors are causing problems. So what they do is they adapt, they change how they behave, but only in order to do the same thing. So an expression I use, and I've said it many times on some of the videos I talk about there is a difference between the change in a person and the change in a tactic.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:We don't always see it at first, but again, if it's just a change in a tactic, you will see them reverting back to type because it Because it's very hard to maintain an act. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Wow, that's really how have you seen the change in tactic play out? I mean, maybe you don't have you know, we can even create, you know a scenario, but how have you seen that happen? I think that would be good for our listeners to find themselves in that.
Speaker 2:I'll. I'll, let me see. I'll think of an example. Um, okay, let's. Let's imagine something like covert narcissism, which is very it kind of below the radar. It's more like a sense of victimhood and helplessness and things like that. You know, if you, if you don't do what I say, if you don't give me what I want, look at the pain I'm going to be in, look at the misery I'll be in. You know you will have inflicted this and all that sort of thing. So it's really guilt-tripping you. Okay, after a while someone's done with that. They see through it. They're not going to fall for it anymore. So that might change to if other people knew how cruel you were to me by not doing this. So it's the same thing to get what they want, it's just a change in how they do it. Gotcha.
Speaker 2:Rather than maybe go directly and target maybe someone's conscience, they will change and they will maybe shift their fear of public opinion what others think of them. Gotcha, gotcha. So that's just a change in a tactic to do the same thing, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, when we're working with betrayal trauma you know we have been known to, you know create safety plans or repair plans and there's been times in the past that that has backfired on on me with a client because the person who on the other end is, you know, has some narcissistic tendencies or strategies and what they do is they just do the punch list and they adapt around the need that their partner's asking for, and then you know they they sort of stay away from those hot topics but, like you said, they had sort of moving on the side here.
Speaker 1:Can you just say what a repair plan is?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. Well, sometimes, when I am working with a betrayed partner who has experienced the impact of a person who has narcissistic tendencies or, you know, is actually MPD, whatever it might be on the spectrum, but that that behavior has caused innumerable impact in their life, and sometimes what we'll do is is, you know, as a as a way to start kind of working through the process, is, you know, let's talk about what it would look like if their partner wants to bring repair to that, and so we'll start that process of writing down what are some of my goals in this relationship. If I'm going to stay, why? Why is it I want to stay? What are some of my wants? Why, you know, why is it I want to stay? What are some of my wants, what are some of my needs? Because sometimes, you know, as a betrayed partner, we haven't even figured out in our own system of thinking what our wants and needs are, because we've always been manipulated. We don't, you know, for whatever reason or not, we've never even we don't even know what we're thinking.
Speaker 4:So it's our wants, our needs, and then we have some specific requests, and some of those requests might be along the lines of you know, I request that you know if I'm going to continue to be in the relationship with you, you can choose whatever you want to do, but if I'm going to be in the relationship, there needs to be some counseling. Um, that's going alongside of our of our you know repair process. Or you know if there's been infidelity, it's like of our you know repair process. Or you know if there's been infidelity, it's like I request that you know this particular person is completely out of our life and you know if that line crosses again, that means you know I'm, I'm, I'm leaving the relationship. Whatever those requests might look like, I request that you know we have, um, uh, weekly moments of check-in where I can understand where you're at in your process and you can understand where I'm at, where those are kind of sacred moments and whatever.
Speaker 4:So you know. Again, those are just I'm giving them, just throwing out some, some examples. Well, a repair plan is helpful to the partner because it helps them, first of all, enunciate what they need, want and request, but it also helps them to give that to their partner and say, listen, you don't have to do any of this and I'm not going to make you do this, because that's your choice, because, you know, I wish I could control you but I can't. So if you choose not to do any of these things, you're choosing not to be with me, because this is what I need when someone experiences betrayal trauma, there are a billion questions that all sum up to one big question.
Speaker 1:But now they don't know if coaching is right for them or if it's affordable, or if their partner would even be willing to step into coaching with them. So we created the 10-part program what Now? A Couple's Guide to Surviving Crisis in Marriage. This program will not take your problems away, but we wanted to be able to at least answer some of your questions, because we know firsthand how scary it can be and how many questions are mounting up on you right now. Because we want everyone to be able to get this, we're discounting the price for the next several weeks and if, in the future, you feel like coaching is what you need from james or terry or any one of the coaches at marriage health, the price of your course will be discounted from your first session. We just want you to have the support you need. Go to marriagehealthorg, slash what now or find the link in the description.
Speaker 4:Well, a repair plan is helpful to the partner because it helps them, first of all, enunciate what they need, want and request, but it also helps them to, you know, give that to their partner and say listen, you don't have to do any of this and I'm not going to make you do this, because that's your choice, because you know, I wish I could control you, but I can't. So if you choose not to do any of these things, you're choosing not to be with me, because this is what I need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, first of all, when the couple are there, you're making them the architects of their own relationship. What kind of relationship. Do you want what's going to? Work for you. Yeah, yeah so, if you will, you're also encouraging them to negotiate. Yeah, now, I think this is you know, this is going to fly in the face of every love song you've ever danced to, but, um, I think what makes a good relationship is the art of negotiation. Yeah, oh yeah, trade-offs. What do you give in order to get?
Speaker 2:yeah and if I could just add to that, uh, there's an exercise I would sometimes do with people. I would ask them to to write out a list of things, something if they were advertising for a partner. You know like it was a job description, you know what are the terms and conditions, what's the minimum requirements and things like that and the two of them.
Speaker 2:You know they'll be writing away and sometimes they're looking at each other and they're giggling. But they're writing away all these things and when they're finished writing and you see them, sometimes they're quite eager, they want to share them with each other. And I said well, you see, before you share these, I'd like you to read over what you've just written. Do you do those things. If you applied for the post, would you get it?
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's good, that's really good.
Speaker 2:It's, it's, it's an interesting way to you know to see, see what comes up.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 5:You're not going to start with that question, are you?
Speaker 2:You got to wait to the end to ask that question because they have you a different story if you applied for the role partner would you get it yeah that's a great question.
Speaker 5:Yes, absolutely yeah, yeah, darren. Um, I'm curious, uh. I mean, do you, do you work with a lot of narcissists? Uh, in your practice right now, is it something that you're seeing?
Speaker 2:um, most of the people that I would say. When it comes to narcissism, anyway, I see a wide range of people for a wide range of of issues. Most of the people that have come to me have been in narcissistic relationships, so I'm seeing them as they're coming out of that or seeing the impact. It's not to say I haven't seen people with high narcissistic tendencies and so on, but the majority would be people who, as I say, have been on the wrong end.
Speaker 5:On the other side.
Speaker 4:You said that you work a lot with people that are kind of being impacted by the narcissistic behavior pattern to whatever degree on the spectrum that is. You know, do you, do you ever get? Because I know, I know the answer to what I've experienced, so I'd love to hear your experience. You know the the client that comes to you and says I, I think I'm in a relationship with someone who has narcissistic tendencies, but they're saying I'm a narcissist and so now what do I do? I mean it happens all the time, that kind of you know projection. But but you know, you know, have you ever experienced that?
Speaker 2:Not just in therapy, I get it in real life. People say it all the time yeah, even just friends, family members. Yeah, they're being accused of you know various things. Yeah, there is. You used to use the term. Yeah, a lot of it is a projection. A lot of it is, I think, people deciding they can diagnose based on two or three YouTube videos.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can diagnose based on two or three YouTube videos. Yeah, there's a lot of different things going on. What I say to people is whether or not someone, whether it's, say, narcissism, whether it's psychopathy, whether it's borderline personality, whether it's obsessive-compulsive personality, regardless of what it is, look at the behavior. Yeah.
Speaker 2:How much is this behavior impacting you? Yeah, what is the effect of this behavior on you? In what ways have you changed? Because of the behavior? I think and I talked about this on a live stream with someone else before I answer that I'll put it this way Human beings, as a rule, we do not like things that don't make sense. We are, you know, we're the only creature on the planet that needs to know things we don't know. Especially when we're desperate, we need to know what to do. Whenever we don't know what to do when things are really dark, it causes us a lot of distress, and we do not like things that don't make sense. Yeah, that's one of the things that can cause things like flashbacks and so on and trauma. What people do is is, uh, you know they can be reliving things. They go over, things. They ruminate endlessly over in different interactions, things that have happened, things that were said. I think one of the reasons is we're trying to get a new piece of information to make something make sense.
Speaker 2:Once it makes sense to us, we're able to process it, it goes into our memory, won't go into the memory. It just keeps coming up here, we keep thinking about it until we're distracted again and then it keeps coming back. So I think there is and this is human nature the need for information for things to make sense. A lot of people can watch videos, read articles about different personality types, narcissism and things like that. It is good to educate yourself, to give yourself a bit of information, yes, but what I encourage people to do is to keep the focus on themselves, recognize the behavior, identify the behavior you and if you want to give it an image and it could well be narcissism gonna call it narcissism that's perfectly okay, but you keep the focus on yourself, because we can go down so many rabbit holes every time we get a new piece of information or something that validates our experience, we get like a dopamine hit.
Speaker 2:So then we want more, and we want more, and we want more. So it's trying to find that balance between educating yourself yeah yeah, but also keeping the focus on yourself yeah. So that you don't get stuck, so you don't go into rabbit holes, yeah, and so that you can try to navigate ways forward as we navigate forward, or as brother as we move forward, I think the moving on catches up.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, I think that's great, that's a you know good word of advice. And you know what I find with some of my clients that have endured some projection after working for a certain amount of months through the process they realize, oh, I realize I'm not a narcissist, that's what I was told by the narcissist. Um, but I do have, you know, some complex trauma shaping. Or I have some, you know some, uh, some post-traumatic stress responses because of some of the things I've gone through, and or reactive, um, you know, defense mechanisms because of these things. And oh, now I'm understanding more about my own process so I can show up differently, you know, in, in in the process with my partner and instead of them just kind of pointing, I can say, well, actually you know that is or isn't true and I can feel confident in that.
Speaker 2:And that's the thing about you know, when we, if we were to be labeled, we're, we're the bad guy, we're the villain, because we said no, because we moved out, because we wouldn't give them what they want. And again, there's that targeting of conscience, there's that targeting of public opinion, self-esteem, things like that. Yeah, go ahead and be the bad guy, yeah, yeah. That's good.
Speaker 2:Be the bad guy, you're always going to be somebody's villain. Yeah, that's good. Be the bad guy, you're always going to be somebody's villain. Yeah, the example I always use to every billionaire megalomaniac trying to take over the world James Bond is the bad guy. Yeah, you know, so go ahead be the bad guy.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good Just don't be the bad guy, they say you are. Don't be the villain they claim you are. Yeah, they say you are. Don't be the villain they claim you are. And I love this quote. I'm going to get it framed and put on the wall behind me. It's my favorite quote from a book. It's from the Count of Monte Cristo, if you're familiar with the story. Just prior to his escaping, his friend, the Abbey Farias, says to him whenever you get out and paraphrase it here see, when you get out, go, live your best life. Take the treasure, take the money, go and live your best life. He says do not commit the crime for which you now serve the sentence. Do not become the very thing you're accused of. You're going to be the bad guy. Be the bad guy, but just do not be the bad guy they say you are wow that's really good.
Speaker 2:That's really good narcissistic personality is a very shame based disorder and I like how craig malkin refers to it in his book. It's the fear of being ordinary, um, there's that need to be special, and so on, and the mortification can come whenever they realize that they're no more entitled than anyone else. There is someone else in the room who knows things they don't, can do things they can't, yeah, or maybe more accomplished in some areas. They've got something wrong, they're mistaken, but one way or another the shame comes, and so they are mortified, if you will, their soul is mortified. Can that initiate change again?
Speaker 2:It really depends on the person because, yeah, sometimes we can be embarrassed and we'll think, you know, know, we'll be thinking to ourselves oh, I'll get them. What do you say? I'm going to come up with a witty comeback, what do you say? But afterwards we're thinking, oh, do you know what? No, I was just a Muppet in there. You know, I deserve that. So you know, we can be like, sometimes narcissistic people, depending on where they are on the spectrum, it's like it's almost like they double down and they can become very vindictive.
Speaker 2:So what they do is they want some kind of vengeance, they want to shame and humiliate someone else. If they can't do it on their particular target, it's going to be someone else, it's going to be their friend, it's going to be their partner, whoever. So the mortification doesn't necessarily initiate change. What it can do is it can initiate change to the point where they realize maybe they have to do something. So again they might see a therapist or a coach or something, because, like I said earlier, once the crisis passes, if you will, so does their need for therapy, so does their need for coaching, so does their need for whatever, and they just revert back to type. It really depends on the individual, it really depends on the person and it depends on what's going on with them internally. How deeply ingrained is the narcissism?
Speaker 4:Wow. So if I'm a partner, I'm going to Wow. So if I'm a partner, I'm going to. I'm going to kind of want somebody to say, you know, I recognize that I have these tendencies. It's, it's obviously impacting you and you know, yes, there are times when I employ these strategies because I feel afraid or, you know, I'm feeling uncomfortable. I don't want the pain, um, and you know I'm as messy as it is. I'm willing to like continue to have counseling or coaching or whatever it might be, to kind of, you know, be that that part of my life that that's going to bring that change to the surface on an ongoing basis, even if it takes, you know, for the rest of my life. I mean, that's obviously the A answer that you know somebody would would have to give, but I mean that's in a nutshell. I mean that's kind of what we're looking for, though, right Is? We're looking for somebody who can say, like this is, this is a reality and I, I can't do this on my own anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah and and uh. You know, you imagine a couple and one of them is at the end of their tether and they just want to end it, they just want to leave. But the other person might start pleading. You know, don't be going. Don't be going. What do you say? It'll be different, I'll change, things are going to be wonderful. So they might make promises. It's what they call future faking. I'm sure you're familiar with the term. You know they'll promise this wonderful future. They're going to take them on holiday, they'll buy them a new car, they'll do all that sort of thing. If you were to ask that person okay, well, if I were to stay, what would be different? What would change? Yeah, now, that's a very difficult question, I think, for anyone to answer, because we're not going to have the answer straight away. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What we might say is we might say something you know I promise I won't do that again. Or you know I promise I'll be more like this, or I promise I'll, we might do that, but other than that we're not going to have an answer because we haven't really fully thought it through. Yeah, narcissistic person, you might get different answers Again. You might get the promise of the holiday. You know the things. I will give you things. You know. You might get a blank stare because they have no idea what that means. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would be different? And the reason I believe and this is just speculation on my part, but the reason I believe that is is because if you were to ask them what would be different, what would change if they were to answer that that means they would have to acknowledge something had been wrong and again that's going to bring up the shame and that's very quickly rejected yeah yeah that's good yeah that's really yeah.
Speaker 5:Darren. So for somebody who's coming to this video and they're watching this and they're thinking my spouse is probably a narcissist or has narcissistic tendencies, what's the origin of that? How does that become? Does someone born into this world and they're coming out as a narcissist? Or do things happen along the way to develop and it's like an adaptive strategy with someone's life that becomes this and uses this behavior to protect, preserve and so on? How does someone become a narcissist in the first place? And for a reason of asking that is because for somebody who's on the fence of saying, do I want to even try to fight, fight for this thing? There, there can be a point of saying my spouse is sick, it's a disorder, you know, and it's. There's a reason for that. It doesn't mean that's always the case and it's. Should they stay? If it's abusive, it's hurt, it's hurting them. Um, in a way, it's abusive. Uh, but how does that come about?
Speaker 2:Well, it's that age old question, isn't it? Is it nature or nurture? Yeah, I can tell you what I think. I think it's both. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Agreed. I think there can be. I mean, some of the literature suggests there can be genetic things going on, but it also suggests it can be environmental. So personally, I think it can be a bit of both and I think there's many different routes to it. This is like any kind of personality. I think I have a colleague who explained it to me this way. I'll share it with you. I thought she really nailed it. I loved how she put this. If you think of it like a tree, okay now if you were to look below the ground, you're gonna see a lot of different roots reaching up to that tree mm-hmm but once you get to the tree, you get to the top of it.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of branches going in many different directions yeah so a lot of our new personality types, where they come from and how they manifest. I thought the tree was a good analogy and yeah, kind of made sense to me, which is why it's never really a one size fits all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you could have someone. Let's imagine a child being grown up uh, growing up, and that child is amazing. That child is special. Now, all our kids are amazing and special, but amazing and special to the point where they don't have to do anything to try anything. Everything's given to them because they're so amazing. They don't learn a resilience to things like disappointment, failure. There's no discipline, things like that. You might get another child who is loved, and this is very common in narcissistic families. The child is loved conditionally. Children are generally loved unconditionally. Even though we have to set rules and boundaries and things like that, we do love them unconditionally. What I mean by that is a child might do something naughty, might break the family heirloom or something, and the parents are going what that's been in the family for generations.
Speaker 2:The child. They're going to be angry with the child. The child might get sent to their room. There's no TV for a week or something, you know whatever it is they do these days, but the child still knows they're loved. Yeah. In a narcissistic family, the love can be very conditional. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You are loved when you meet my needs. I live vicariously through you and perfect parents have perfect children. Yeah, you don't come home with you. Don't come with with nine out of ten. You have to come home with ten out of ten yeah you know, I'm not pleased that you're in the school play. I'm pleased that you have the lead role in the school play, you know. So there's the love is very conditional.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So on one hand, they're being taught that they're unique and special and wonderful and great, but on the other hand, they're being taught they're just worthless and useless. Yeah. For not reaching the standard. There are just two examples, but there's many different ways that narcissism can develop yeah that's good.
Speaker 4:Just two examples. But there's many different ways that narcissism can develop. Yeah, that's good. Well, I mean, it's it's basically a pursuit of of, you know, finding genuine love and attachment. That's healthy, but it's you know, it's, it's been distorted or, like you said, it's, it's there, there's a snowplow in front of them and they you know, they just think that the world revolves around them because they don't know any different. And you know, I think that's probably why we might be seeing more of it in the younger generations.
Speaker 4:It looks a lot like narcissistic tendencies or even entitlement, because you know some of the ways that that the parenting has. You know it's like a pendulum. It's like you know we were over here too far and we needed to move toward, you know, a more of attachment-based parenting. But then some people have gone too far with maybe sometimes the way that they have demonstrated that and their kids aren't getting any, like you said, coping strategies for healthy resiliency, or showing up when things are hard, or or dealing with pain and and and you know negative things that come at it.
Speaker 4:So then it's like wait a second. You know, I remember we worked with youth for a long time and we can, I can still remember we were, we were taking a bunch of youth on a trip and it was, you know, for some development, for some, you know, in their own growth, in their own life. And we all got out of the bus and everybody got their bags. Well, there was these two girls and their bags were sitting there and they were like well, who's getting my bag? And we went you, you get the bag. And they said, well, we don't ever get bags, you know, we don't ever get bags, you know we don't ever get bags. And so we kind of thought interesting, you know.
Speaker 5:And it's kind of that Get your stinking bag.
Speaker 3:Yeah, get your bag. We just said get your bag. If you don't get it, you're going to walk away.
Speaker 4:But it's kind of that way in relationships. You know, if somebody doesn't have the school, the skills or the tools to show up, you know with the ability to you know, relate or compromise or see empathically the other person, then they're like get my bags and you're like what?
Speaker 2:There's something wrong with you for not lifting my bag. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And I wonder if that's going to become more prevalent. As you know, some of those, those techniques are sure is. Yeah, everybody gets a ribbon. I guess you know kind of thing Everybody wins, nobody loses anymore. You know.
Speaker 2:on on athletic events, it's like well, you get a price for turning up, yeah, which you know is there is good.
Speaker 4:There is good in that right. There's a good thing in that.
Speaker 5:However there is good. There is good in that right. There's a good thing in that. However, that's a difference between her and I'm like.
Speaker 4:No, he's the athlete, but there is something really developed also and I've watched that in our children. It's like there's sometimes when you fall, you know and you don't get across the finish line. What happens? What do you do? Right, yeah, how do you cope with that?
Speaker 2:and it's like that was as much the training as getting the the medal yeah you know, yeah, yeah, I think there's something to be said for praising people for their efforts, you know, and encouraging people showing them, you know, how they can improve certain areas, and I think I think that's different from, you know, just getting the medal for turning up.
Speaker 5:Yeah, no, I don't think so, not in my course. Yeah, that's right, darren?
Speaker 1:do you think that anybody should be shamed for wanting to even just give it a shot, saving their marriage if they're married to somebody who has got narcissistic tendencies? Because, especially if you go on a space like youtube or instagram, it's like if you don't leave him because he's a narcissist, you're weak. The only way that you can help a narcissist is to leave them, and the comments like that typically are rampant but, should someone feel shame for wanting to at least try or put forth effort.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. I don't believe so, and comments like you've just described sound very rigid, very rigid thinking. And rigid thinking is actually a characteristic of narcissism. Yeah, so there's something curious there isn't there.
Speaker 2:I think people can feel regret that they may be tried more. They try too much or whatever. I think people can feel regret. I don't think they should be shamed. Some of the comments that were mentioned you know about. When people do say certain things, it does suggest rigid thinking. Yeah, and rigid thinking is a characteristic of narcissism. It's all or nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's yes or no, it's up or down, it's left or right, whatever. So I think it's curious that some of the people who may be trying to shame people yeah, it actually sounds quite narcissistic in and of itself. It sure does.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure, yeah it actually sounds quite narcissistic in and of itself. It sure does, yeah for sure. Well, and I think when you're in a process with a professional and there's accountability around it, you know more, you know, obviously, if you feel safe, you know as things are exposed, I think you can start to make those decisions more clearly. Yeah, but you know, I think at the end of the day, I know in our process, you know I wrote it out and we had obviously a wonderful result, but I know that isn't always the case. But I know that in my own genuine, authentic personhood, I knew I wanted to ride it out far enough that the decision I made felt genuine, authentic and I wouldn't have a regret.
Speaker 4:Um, and you know that was great and we had enough accountability that that would, that would have been safe. Um, and I know some people get to that point and then you know they do have to, uh to, to walk away from their relationship. But I think that that you know you're, you're right. I think sometimes on media, social media people can just be so you know they're just basically responding out of their own pain and hurt. But I think every case is so different. I think we should have compassion for everybody's process.
Speaker 2:Also, I think that as well and I've said this so many times to clients that come to me, as much as I've said this on my videos as well Everything we ever do is going to have a consequence, everything.
Speaker 2:Everything we don't do is going to have a consequence. Yes, now, by the way, consequences don't always have to be negative. They can be negative. But even they could be negative. Perhaps in the short term, you know, there could be a longer term gain. But one way or another, everything you do, as well as everything you don't do, are going to have consequences. The power you, have is to choose your consequences.
Speaker 4:It's absolutely okay for me to say, hey, listen, you don't have to do anything if you don't want to, but if you want to be in a relationship with me, I have been hurt.
Speaker 4:Those strategies of self-preservation are killing our relationship and so if you want to be in the relationship as you say you do, then there has to be accountability around that. There has to be somebody speaking into that. Maybe it's a couple's counseling or coaching that's changing that, or I have to choose not to be involved in that, and then you'll find out, when I'm not in the equation, that those strategies are continuing on in your life. You're going to continue to have issues with other people. You're going to continue to have relational tensions. You're going to continue to do this at work and you're going to realize that you have a problem and I'm not it. So we can choose that now in the relationship and try to do something different with accountability and help, or I can step out of that and then you can go ahead on in your life and you'll just realize this is going to repeat itself.
Speaker 1:Does it happen that if a spouse or a wife of a narcissist will say to their husband, who's a narcissist, you need to go see James and if you don't go see him, we're done?
Speaker 5:Oh, I have heard many wives talk about they threaten their husbands because I only work with the guys and I only work with women if Terry is present with us, you know, and or if I work with a couple, if I do it individually. But yes, I've heard many times where a wife will say you need to start working with James or you need to make your appointments that you have set up with James, because a lot of times the narcissist I've had working, I've worked with a narcissist that just don't show up to their appointments and they have every excuse in the world why they're not making them. And so then they get a good swift kick in the butt that says you know what, if you don't make those appointments or if you don't start working with him, we're done. Or go to a therapist or go to a coach, go somewhere, start working with somebody, or we're done. And I've heard that countless times, countless times. I kind of chuckle about it.
Speaker 5:Is that okay to do that in your marriage? Yes, yes, if there's a boundary established, if there's abuse in an unhealthy environment, where a relationship is abusive or is unhealthy and a spouse says you know what, you need to get help because you got a problem and I'm not it. And if you don't go deal with it, then you know what it's going to hinder what we have going forward. And if you don't go get help, then it's going to impact how I can go forward with you, because I'm not going to continue to walk alongside of you. Is that abandonment? Well, that can be abandonment, but it's on the behavior of someone who's being destructive. They have a choice. Do I continue to live my way in my life, the way I'm living it, or do I change and become a better and healthier version of myself so I can care and serve the person I'm married to? So a spouse says you know what, you need to get help. Is that wrong? For them to do that? No, no, it's somewhat the only boundary that they can actually establish, because bottom line is you have a choice.
Speaker 5:If you stay or not, it is your choice. And you're in a place, if it's abusive, it's destructive, and all of a sudden you're faced with the reality of hmm, what do I do with this? You have to make a choice. And if it's telling your spouse you need to get help, and if you don't get help, I'm not staying around here, I'm going to remove myself out of the equation because I can't keep getting beat up by you with your words, your actions and your behavior and making me feel like I'm worthless and I'm always at fault. Well, you're going to have to remove yourself out of here because you can't heal if you keep being bombarded with all this behavior. You've got to go over here and say I'm going to get healthy over here and then allow your spouse to get healthy over here if they choose to be or if they choose to do so.
Speaker 1:Marriage Health with James and Terry Craig. If you feel like you need someone to come alongside you, a coach or a counselor, reach out to us. The link is in the description.
