Marriage Health with James & Teri Craft
With backgrounds in therapy and coaching, James and Teri Craft help your marriage through issues with communication, intimacy, conflict, or if you're just fighting to fall back in love with your partner. Aside from their certifications, the reason why James and Teri are so passionate about helping your marriage through challenges is because they've walked through the hardest things in their marriage and they wouldn't have made it if it weren't for help.
If you are fighting for your marriage, don’t face this fight alone.
Marriage Health with James & Teri Craft
Surviving Betrayal: How to Heal and Rebuild Trust in Relationships
What if the betrayal of trust isn't the end, but rather an opportunity for transformation? Join us as we explore the heart-wrenching yet empowering journey of Lori from Texas, who discovered her husband's repeated infidelities. Through her courageous story, we confront the complex emotions and decisions that arise when trust is shattered. Together, we navigate the tumultuous waters of whether to stay or leave a relationship, considering personal safety, emotional well-being, and the daunting task of rebuilding trust. Lori's experience serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of addressing underlying issues and making informed decisions with the support of a reliable network.
Setting boundaries isn't just about protection—it's a vital part of healing. We discuss how creating a "sandbox" for safe communication can help individuals in relationships strained by betrayal and trauma. Highlighting a transformative 10-part program, we offer guidance for couples in crisis, stressing the necessity of trusting one's instincts and prioritizing self-care. The journey of healing from betrayal is complex and requires patience, as well as a commitment to rebuilding trust in oneself. Through personal stories, we underscore the significance of long-term dedication and accountability in overcoming infidelity.
The path to healing isn't always straightforward, particularly for men who struggle to form deep, trusting relationships. We tackle the challenges of overcoming reluctance in seeking therapy and the influence of generational trauma on current relationships. By focusing on individual healing and self-discovery, we encourage listeners to redirect their energy towards personal growth, rather than attempting to fix a partner's brokenness. Our mission is to provide support and guidance at life's intersections, helping listeners find strength in community as they navigate their own journeys. Join us as we emphasize the power of support systems and the crucial role of reflection and informed decision-making in reaching life's destinations.
If you feel like you might need coaching our counseling, please visit https://www.livelifeunplugged.org/contact
I received a few emails. It was from an anonymous email, but one of the women reached out and said that his online presence was that he was a widow, discovering that last week that he told multiple women that he was a widow and a single dad. Just it's devastating. I mean, like how could you come up with that? And for the woman to say, like she found my social media and she was like, it was like seeing a ghost.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:Wow, trauma of any kind. I ask you, should I stay or should I leave? How do you know when is the right time, whether you should or you shouldn't?
Speaker 4:If somebody's reaching out and saying is it enough? I'm getting to that point. That tells me what I'm hearing in that question. When is it enough? I'm hearing in that question that someone has had a lot hit them, that they're experiencing things that are impacting their body, they are starting to fray and they're starting to fall apart, where it's like, yeah, this might, this might really be hurting me. I mean really hurting me. So if someone wants me to answer, will you go?
Speaker 4:When you do X, y and Z, I can't say that right, because everyone's so different and their situation is so different. Sometimes it's easy for a friend to say, just go right, and it's like, okay, well, it's really good to take some time with that so that when you do have to make a decision whether to stay or to go that you feel as if you genuinely and authentically have made that decision from the best and most informed place that you can. But I will say immediately go if there is not safety. First of all, we're going to go through this criteria Do we have safety? If there's any physical, even emotional or sexual abuse taking place, walk away.
Speaker 4:But if that safety is somewhat established, if you're like hey, I do feel safe. It's just we're really working through some hard things. It's like, okay, well, what support do you have? I mean, just as a person who's walked through a lot of traumas in my own marriage, there were times when I asked a lot of those same questions like how much can I endure?
Speaker 4:And what I experienced, what worked in helping me be able to walk in this relationship building that trust and repair was when my husband was 100% dedicated to the process. So, even though there was times that it got messy or it was difficult, I could trust that we were moving forward, even inch by inch, maybe even millimeter by millimeter some days, but I felt like I could trust the fact that he was very committed. So if somebody is saying like I acknowledge I hold impact, I've told the truth, we're walking in the truth, we're trying to establish what it looks like to repair and I'm doing what it takes, even though this is really hard, then that's going to feel a lot more like okay, even though it is hard, I can stay in this. Hi, I'm.
Speaker 1:Lori from Texas.
Speaker 3:Hi Lori, it is great to meet you and we're excited that you're here with us. On Marriage Health, yes, would you help us kind of understand and just kind of bring us along with the challenge that you have in front of you? Yeah, because you made a comment on that. There's been infidelity.
Speaker 4:There's been an affair in the relationship well, lori, we'd love to kind of walk with you alongside you, uh, and what you're dealing with is that?
Speaker 1:okay, okay, yeah, so um, this is the second time. The first time it was an emotional affair, it was a quick, it didn't last long. I discovered it pretty quickly. I don't think that he could hide it as well as he did this time, but the first time we just kind of we, our daughter was young, so we just snapped it right back into place, swept it under the rug, we were back in the house and rolling with it and I don't think we both properly healed, yeah, okay. And now we're on the second time around and this one is a little bit deeper and a little bit different. Okay, and the discovery of it has been a little bit more. I think I know more details than I did last time.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:So that's a little bit harder.
Speaker 3:Has this been a recent occurrence or has it been, like a year ago, two years ago? Has it just been recent?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just found out over the summer. Okay, it kind of started back in May. He just wanted to be done with the marriage and he didn't want to work on it and he, you know, blamed me and everything and so we separated. He went to the basement and I lived upstairs and, um, it was summer, so it was just me and the kiddo and, um, I fought all summer. I mean, I begged for counseling, I begged for therapy, I begged for church, fought all summer. I mean, I begged for counseling, I begged for therapy, I begged for church. You know, I was doing everything I thought that I could to convince him that not to give up. Um, and then, um, I started reaching out to friends, letting friends know what was going on. And um, and then, probably about mid summer, um, I received a few emails that was alluding to a possible affair. It was from an anonymous email.
Speaker 4:So if somebody is saying I acknowledge I hold impact, I've told the truth, we're walking in the truth and I'm doing what it takes, even though this is really hard, then that's going to feel a lot more like okay, even though it is hard, I can stay in this. That's going to feel a lot more like okay, even though it is hard, I can stay in this. But if I'm in a relationship and somebody isn't doing any of those things and I start to have physical and emotional impact in my own body because of that, I have a lot of my support system saying, hey, we're recognizing that there is abusive things going on and we're starting to be concerned for you and I'm in a support with my own individual journey and I'm having that support say, I'm kind of concerned because the impact is starting to really hurt you. Then we have to make hard choices and it may be time for me to make a choice to get some space or, to you know, walk away probably about mid-summer.
Speaker 1:Um, I received a few emails that was alluding to a possible affair. It was from an anonymous email, okay, um, I still don't know who sent them, but, um, it was screenshots after screenshots of things that both of them were sharing with one another. And evidence of his social media presence and the things he was putting out there. As far as not being married, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3:It hurts. It hurts, and I can only imagine the tears, the anger, the disbelief. There's so many emotions that can be wrapped up in that, and I'm so sorry that you are worth more and you're worthy of love, and now you still face the problem, though Okay, even in that truth, you still have a challenge in front of you that we want to work through. You'll hear us talk about boundaries a lot Boundaries for your protection but to create boundaries it's like building a sandbox.
Speaker 3:It is an environment that you are safe in and that's where you're going to play. You're going to play in the sandbox. It is an environment that you are safe in and that's where you're going to play. You're going to play in the sandbox, and if someone wants to jump in that sandbox with you, it's going to be by the rules that you determine for yourself. That's not being controlling what it is, it's being wise. You're establishing what is best for you. What do those boundaries with your husband look like? Because you can't fix him, but if you were to entertain the concept of going forward in a relationship with him I'm just talking about entertain that idea, to be curious what would those boundaries have to look like? Because there is abuse that's taken place in the relationship and you are the recipient of it.
Speaker 5:When you experience betrayal, trauma, an affair, cheating of any kind, even discovery of a pornography addiction, A lot of people will tell you leave immediately, just go, and in some cases they might not be wrong. Others will expect you to go to two or three couples counseling sessions and then push it down and never bring it up again. And if there is abuse in your relationship, this is definitely not right. But are those your only two options Leave or push it down? Marriage House believes that's okay to hope for option number three Believe God can do a miracle, A miracle that two people can go into a process, a long process, and come out the other side completely unrecognizable.
Speaker 5:It doesn't always happen and it requires two people giving it all they've got, even if one or both of them are reluctant at first. But option three does happen. We've seen God do so many miracles. So many of you have reached out to us for help and you might not feel ready or know if coaching is right for you. So we decided to create a 10-part program just for you. What Now? A couple's guide to surviving crisis in marriage.
Speaker 4:Listen, we don't sign up for this. Nobody signs up for this, and so there's not a lot of information and not a lot of support for couples that are processing through betrayal, trauma or these kinds of crisis.
Speaker 3:See, you woke up yesterday or this morning thinking everything was okay and then all of a sudden you're faced with this bombshell that has gone off in your life. Who do I talk to about this?
Speaker 4:So trauma in and of itself is, we experience emotional or physical shock. Betrayal trauma occurs, though, when someone we depend on for survival, a close, vulnerable, trusted person in your life Obviously, a marriage relationship is going to be the ultimate vulnerability when that relationship suffers a significant violation of trust. Infidelity could be that there's a sexual addiction. It could be that even a misuse of our finances and there's been lying around that could be that there's a sexual addiction. It could be that even a misuse of our finances and there's been lying around that it could be viewing pornography, looking at things online, talking to people online. This could be even that our intimate partner tells us that I have an STD and then you find out that you've been impacted by that.
Speaker 3:They cheated, they had an affair. You found out they had an addiction. I don't know what the crisis is that you're facing, but it's your reality.
Speaker 4:We want to hold that very carefully, because we understand how delicate and how difficult that is. I know from firsthand and my professional experience. You may have so many questions what am I supposed to do? What next? What now? I do this every day. I do this every single day, and you're not the only one. So it's okay. It's okay to take the steps that you need to take to care for yourself.
Speaker 3:It's a horrible place to find yourself. I know because I was there at one time.
Speaker 4:What next is? Let's start listening. What does it feel like for you to listen? Listen to your gut, listen to your heart. What is it you're experiencing? What is it you need? What are some requests, and we're going to fashion that into a really strong repair plan.
Speaker 3:I swear I would never do something like this. It probably started way back when, in your developmental years, of this wound and this pain that brought you to this place. So if it's taken 30 to 40 or 50 years for you to get to this place, you're not going to get out of this overnight. Give up that control, give in to the process. There is something really beautiful that can come out of that surrender.
Speaker 4:You might not know what you want. Day to day it might change. It might feel as if you don't even know what's going on in your body anymore that part of you we call it the enteric system or your gut. Basically, we want to start recovering what has really been likely damaged in the process of the traumatic experience that you have been experiencing. We want to start repairing that inside of you first, so that you can begin to trust yourself in making the decisions that need to be made through this process ahead.
Speaker 5:What Now? A couple's guide to surviving crisis in marriage, available starting November 1st. Go to marriagehealthorg. Slash what now?
Speaker 2:For somebody who's experiencing betrayal, trauma or infidelity. Or maybe they're discovering their partner has a pornography addiction. Their partner's been doing things on social media or at work just crossing the lines, and maybe there's been sincere apologies and then continued hurts, continued traumas. When is enough enough? You get a lot of people writing in and asking that question saying here's what I've been going through. Should I leave now? Good, question.
Speaker 3:Your spouse or your partner has been on inappropriate relationships on social media, maybe an affair, addiction to pornography and some sexual activity. There is a point when something has to happen for change to take place. The pain on the outside has to increase more than the pain on the inside for change to take place. But what does that look like? Well, you might have to say, okay, if you don't change the way you're doing things, if you don't change that behavior, then I'm going to have to remove myself out of the situation. Now I'll tell you right now that the men I work with and I work with a lot of men when their wives say to them I'm removing myself out of the situation, that means I might have to go move in with my parents, or you might have to go move in with my parents, or you might have to go move in with your parents, something, get outside the house so that I feel safe in this, because they can't trust and they don't feel safe in that relationship. Well, that is gonna create some kind of urgency to make some change.
Speaker 3:The pain on the outside, their environment, their relationships, maybe their job gets impacted by their behavior, the destructive behavior. Okay, you have to then stand your ground and say well, what is it that I need to do for myself to protect myself in this? You are not being asked to keep putting yourself in a dangerous situation. If you're being lied to, cheated on, betrayed, you know, manipulated, gas lit lit and all these things. You're not being asked to stay in that. Okay now, I'm not saying that you go and you file for divorce, but sometimes those boundaries are. I'm going to remove myself out of the situation so that when my spouse can have a chance or make a choice to get some change and to change their behavior, change how they're living, because the way they're living is directly impacting you.
Speaker 1:Last night when I was journaling, I have some feelings of feeling guilty about just knowing what I'm worth at this point after discovering the affair and just working through that. But there's also a part that's like well, wait, you can't let go just yet. You know you have to fight a little bit harder.
Speaker 1:This is your family, this is your child, and this is your husband and you know, so there's a little bit of like I think I can fight a little bit harder, but then there's also like wait, I deserve so much more you know, Um, and I think, as more details come out about what was going on, um, it just feels like discovering it all over again, and that's really hard.
Speaker 3:So, if you find yourself in this situation, this might sound hard because the person who has to put a boundary up. You don't want to be alone. You don't want to find yourself alone by yourself because of someone else's behavior, but being alone and surrounding yourself with good, strong people that can support you in this, rather than being in this abusive relationship man, is that abusive? If someone's lying to me, well, yeah, that's abusive. Did you sign up for that? Did you sign up when you were married one day and said hey, you know what? I'm signing up for you to be a liar in our relationship. No, you signed up to say we're gonna be truthful with one another at all costs, and when that stopped, that became abusive to you. And so it's important for us to be able to say this that we want to advocate for those who are on the receiving end of this. That you have a voice Doesn't mean you're running away, you're not going to the courthouse, you're not going to go file papers, but you got to stand up for yourself so that we can create an environment of pressure. You got to create some pressure to say if you don't want change, that's on you. But I'm going to create some pressure so that you go and pursue that change in your life, so that we can change together.
Speaker 3:So when I talk about having the pain on the outside increase more than the pain on the inside, some people think well, is that fair in a marriage relationship? Yes, I needed that, I know I. I was able to to control my environments and and keep everything a secret and and in compartments in my life, and compartmentalization was the name of the game for me and so I had to have it blow up. And then my wife looked at me and she says hey, if you don't change your behavior. When she found out everything. And she looked at me directly and said hey, I'm going to give you grace If you can give me truth, but if you can't give me truth, I can't give you grace in this. And so we had to meet each other in this grace and truth dance. So I was always giving truth so that grace could be given. Well, many people what they do is they fight against this because one they're not in control.
Speaker 3:I'll speak for men that I've been working with, and even my own life. At one time, when I had to go through my own process, truth was something that I was able to be in control of. When you didn't know my story, you didn't know what was going on behind the scenes, I would give you the truth that you wanted to hear. The truth came out of what I did and then, all of a sudden, my wife had a choice. She says you know what? I'll give you grace, but I want to see change, and if I don't see a change, then you're going to get out.
Speaker 3:I have three daughters. And she says you know what? You're not going to be a safe person in this home if there's not truth, because truth is a value of ours. So the bottom line is is that there has to be somebody who says this enough is enough. I'm not going to keep putting myself in harm's way. I am not going to keep putting myself in a place where you're lying to me all the time, because a relationship cannot be built on lies. It has to be built on truth at all costs. If you want any intimacy within a relationship, it has to be built on truth. That is the foundation. Without it, you can't have a relationship.
Speaker 4:Assessing your situation from the ground level up. Are you, do you feel safe? Is there any part of the situation that you're not feeling safe?
Speaker 1:Oh no, absolutely not. I completely. I have such a good village that you know has reached out and, you know, helped support us and I'm pretty financially independent and, you know, can still take care of myself. And he has left the home of like right. I discovered it Like I got the emails, the. The bomb went off, right.
Speaker 1:Like you know, the truth came out, um, and then I knew from the last time not to make any emotional decisions, um, and so I just needed the dust to settle Um and those. That was a very hard three weeks to let that dust settle and not lash out, not be angry, not say things. So I just kind of avoided him. I only made contact if it related to our child. And then we finally got to a point where I actually and this kind of goes with the question it was a Saturday night and I couldn't get a hold of him, and so I got really worried and someone had taken my daughter, was a sleepover and, um, I went to where he was staying and I just found a really broken version of him. You know, um, I think, what had happened. The dust settled for him okay he was sitting with what?
Speaker 1:happened yeah um, and that was a real raw version of him that I don't. I don't think I've ever got in our 14 years together. Yeah, um, and so we were able to, you know, come to a middle ground. I guess I don't know where we could talk about things and what was going on yeah um, and it gave me a little bit of hope that maybe, like we can patch this you know, yeah, yeah but, um, there's still a little bit.
Speaker 1:you know, like you, you have your friends and your family, and while I have a great village, they like to tell me my worth and then you know it's like, okay, well, I don't know if there is something here to fix. So we, we were able to get along for a few weeks. And then, um, one one I've discovered now there was more than one, okay, but one of the women reached out and said that his online presence was that he was a widow.
Speaker 3:Wow, wow.
Speaker 1:And for me, I just I kept saying this whole time that there just wasn't, I couldn't let go, Like I just it still wasn't enough, like even the second affair, even knowing what he did, it just wasn't enough for me to let go. But discovering that last week, that you know, he told multiple women that he was a widow and a single dad, just I don't know, just yeah, yeah, yeah, that's can I ask you a question there, lori?
Speaker 3:what, what does that if you had to stop and pause? What does that make you feel like? Or how do you, how do you feel when you hear that?
Speaker 1:it's devastating. I I mean how, like you could have said so many other things. You could have just said you were divorced or separated. You didn't have to put that on Like and what. How could you, how could you come up with that? You know. I just um. You know, I just um it. I didn't feel broken. But like I feel broken, you know now like like I was dead. But you know I just I can't like, who are you? Yeah?
Speaker 4:Yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker 1:And for the woman to say like she found my social media and it was like she was like, it was like seeing a ghost, wow, wow, really made up an elaborate um story about your funeral and wow, okay, all this stuff I mean all right.
Speaker 4:So there's some. There's some systemic. You know, lying here, this is okay. Have you experienced lying like that on a a regular pattern with him? Have is? Is lying been an issue? Okay? So this isn't the first time that you've experienced, yeah, lying and deceit.
Speaker 3:No, unfortunately okay, so where? Where is he in the process now? Is he want nothing to do with it? Does he just backed off? Or is he kind of like I I'm curious about going forward and to get help? What does that look like?
Speaker 1:We've kind of both agreed that we're not in a hurry to make any decision about the future. He's somewhere safe, I'm somewhere safe and I think this time I'm just I'm good. And I think this time I'm just I'm good. You stay over there and deal.
Speaker 1:Because, I think last time I really the first affair I really put a lot of blame on myself and took all accountability for what happened and try to be the perfect wife and the better wife, and you know I really tried to, you know, make him feel like he was the leader of the household and things like that. And then, um, I don't know that I invested a whole lot into my healing of what had happened to me yeah um where now I'm like, no, we like I can't put you back together.
Speaker 4:You can't put me back together.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And so I think for him he doesn't come out right and say what he wants. I've noticed lately he'll say well, what does that mean? How does that relate to our future? How does that you know? So it's like almost like I don't know if he's just leaving the ball in my court or what.
Speaker 4:So when I start to get isolated because of the pain and the trauma and the overwhelming situation that I'm in and I'm also experiencing things like gaslighting or deception, stonewalling, maybe abusive emotional manipulation, all of those things when I start to really experience some of those things and I don't have a support system and I'm starting to take that impact 100% on my own, I'm going to start having things like lack of sleep. I might have some physical ailments, stomach issues, weight loss, the inability sometimes to concentrate. I might experience depression, anxiety. I personally, for years struggled with all kinds of digestive issues. You know, was always wondering what was wrong with me. What's wrong with me, you know, what's wrong with my gut basically, with my gut basically, and what my body was telling me, what my enteric system was telling me, which is my gut system was telling me, is that like way too much stress, way too much overload, way too much impact, but I suffered because of it.
Speaker 4:Some people even experience things like skin issues, and I mean there's just a lot that we experience. And so when you start to have a breakdown, not only emotionally, relationally, but also physically, that's when we have to say wait a second, something else has to happen, there has to be something added to this equation. I can't carry this all on my own, so I need to get some support. I might need to get some space. We need to assess where we're going with this. Listen, it can't be just a conversation with you know some people where you tell your side of the story and they're like, yeah, you should go and then you just leave. No, it's not like that. We pray through these decisions, we work through these decisions. But if you've got a support system, a coach or counselor, you know, maybe there's some biblical counsel in there, maybe you've got a great family support, whatever.
Speaker 4:When you've got like a, a group of people that are starting to see this impact and they're like, hey, maybe there needs to be something different, that needs to happen here, then like, listen, but I think there's probably a listener who's like well, I can't afford coaching or counseling right now. I'm maybe a single parent trying to make ends meet. I'm working full time, maybe even like two full time situations. Maybe I'm I don't have that support system and they're crying out right now, going what do I do? What do I do? So I don't. I also don't want to be callous and I don't want someone to think that I can't see that, but I just want I want to be able to address that, because I know that not everybody can put all those things in place immediately. I just want you to know that I hear you.
Speaker 5:While we were shooting this episode of Marriage Health, this was the exact moment we decided we have to do something for anyone going through betrayal trauma. But they don't know if coaching is affordable or if coaching is right for them, or if their partner would even be willing to step into coaching with them. When hit with betrayal trauma, there's a billion questions you'll feel that all sum up to one big question what now? So we created the 10-part program what Now? The Guide for Couples to Survive Crisis in Marriage.
Speaker 5:You might not be able to take the problems away, but we wanted to be able to at least answer some of your questions, because we know firsthand how scary it can be, how many questions are mounting up on you right now. But now the couple's guide to surviving crisis in marriage is available starting November 1st. Because we want everyone to be able to get this, we're discounting the price for everyone from $150 to $89. And if, in the future, you feel like coaching is what you need from James or Terry or any one of the coaches at Marriage Health, the price of your course will be discounted from your first session. We just want you to get the help you need. Go to marriagehealthorg, slash what now or find the link in the description.
Speaker 1:Looking back on the first time you know it was I wanted some questions answered and he wouldn't answer them. Yeah, and that was just his non-negotiable. He was not going to answer to those. But I think, being young and having a young daughter, you know you are going to do anything you can to put that back.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's also a generation cycle here. You know we both come from families that this was a. You know this was a cycle. Adultery was a cycle, um. So there's also that break the break, the curse cycle, you know, um, but I think for him he I'll ask questions and he'll answer the truth, but he's not forthcoming with it.
Speaker 4:Okay, so he hasn't made he hasn't made a commitment to a process, he hasn't given you indication. It sounds like that there is a, an indication that he wants to to cause. You made a really great comment and I and I I want to point that out is that you said, like this is now getting to the point where I know that I need to do some work here. I there's healing, there's, there's stuff inside of me that needs attention. So that's, that's really good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So if, if that's the case for you, you know we really need to see kind of the same kind of if. If you're going to want to put two broken pieces together and make a hole at some point with building that truth and the safety and trust, then you got to have you. There has to be a commitment, right, there has to be a. Then you got to have you. There has to be a commitment, right, there has to be a. I'm all in commitment because what you're describing is is not only current traumas, but it sounds like there's there's been an ongoing cycle of them did you say that you there is betrayal or an affair in your family of origin as well, your mom and dad relationship?
Speaker 3:Is that what you said there was growing up?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, and on his tattoo as well. Okay, so this is a lot.
Speaker 3:So there's past trauma that has. Have you ever dealt with any of that?
Speaker 1:no, I mean I asked like my mom, you know it was so funny. She it's not really funny, but she, we were sitting at the table and she's like you can take him back, you can fix this? And I'm like, Whoa wait.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So she's asking you to fix fix the relationship and be responsible for his choices when in reality you can't fix him, nor can you make his choices.
Speaker 3:That's a lot on you and you're not responsible for his decisions, and you need to hear that he has made his own choices, you know. So you, you have not had a chance to work and deal with those past pains with a counselor, coach or whatever, and you haven't had a chance really to work through the current pain. Correct, ok. So this is, this is a big deal. This is a big deal for you. So you're, you're at an intersection. You're at an intersection in your own life right now. You know that we're going to advocate for Lori. You're worth the work that you can so you can walk in freedom. Okay, I'm not even talking about your husband. I'm not, not, we're not going to. We're not going to go there. Okay, we want to look at you first, because what happens if we try to look at the marriage context? It's, it's so broken and fragmented right now. There's no pieces to put back together. Okay, no, okay, yes, that is such a good point. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Especially if he's not making the indication. Yeah, you know what A really good case scenario would be. Hey, like I realized I made these choices, I'm taking responsibility and I will do whatever it takes right to do. That Meaning like I will get into, you know, the personal counseling or coaching or whatever it is that I need to do to understand the why I did this. But if he's sort of sitting back and kind of letting you ask the questions, I mean it sounds like he's retaining some control here and at the end of the day, you're not going to be able to fix someone else's brokenness. They're going to have to get to their lowest point. I guess in this case, you know his to get to the point where they're going. Wow, you know, so you know. The question then would be Wow, you know, so you know. The question then would be if you can't control all that right now, can you conceptualize not taking responsibility for his choices and what would it look like for you to take that energy and put it?
Speaker 1:into your process how would that feel for you? I think, like when I try to wrap my head around that you know, because I know, like this is this could be my time, right, you know, like that a lot of people don't get in life, but I feel guilty because I hear you. This is a person that I care about, um, and this isn't just someone that I met in my 20s, like. I've known him since I was a little girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah um so we know where each other comes from. Um, he has been my only relationship and so, um, there's a little bit of guilt there, because I know he's hurting and I know he's broken. Yeah. You know, and it's just, it's hard to just leave that, you know, because I don't want him to feel like I don't care or that I'm so angry that I can't be there, but like I can't work through that for you anymore, you know like um, yeah, cause it's enough right like well you're spending.
Speaker 4:It sounds like you're spending a lot of your energy towards him to try to carry. You know him and I don't think that James nor I are saying to you that it's one way or the other, right? Now because, because you know that's not ours to to say, or, you know, to assess, but I think, I think that what you're saying is is that there's a part of this that you can control and there's a part of this that you can't control.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 4:And and it. I would love to be curious for you and see if you can give yourself permission to be able to say what would it look like for me to take some steps and get some healing, even write down and be clear about some of the things that you might need for him If he was to take some steps forward. You're not forcing him to do that, You're not saying you have to do this, but you're saying hey, but if you want to be, with me if you want to be in this relationship, then yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm I'm going to need a few things, and you know one of them is is is that we get some help and support for this ASAP yeah, and then you get some help and support for why it is that you are doing what you're doing and because we're not going to just pretend like this is okay and move on right, you can't.
Speaker 3:You can't go through a, and I can just hear that, even the sensitivity in your voice. This is not going to be okay to go through this again. Okay and so no, no.
Speaker 2:Whenever couples come to you, do you ever receive reluctant men coming into your coaching program that you're actually able to help, or is being reluctant a death wish?
Speaker 3:No, no, you know, I have my wife and I have couples come. Tara and I have couples come to us with all kinds of stories and I work with the men, my wife works with the women, and the bottom line is men a lot of times come in pretty reluctant, especially if they're dealing with betrayal or they're dealing with addictions or they're dealing with the lying and the cheating and all that. They're very reluctant. I don't think I've ever met a man that has come to meet with me that wasn't reluctant Like, yeah, let's go do this, sounds like so much fun. I just don't think anybody would say that. And so everybody is reluctant because it's a territory and a path that they have spent their whole life protecting and not wanting to go down. And all of a sudden they're forced to say it's that or I lose everything, and so they're very, very reluctant. Fear just infuses into their bones and they become paralyzed in that process, men coming to you where they were the person who committed betrayal in a relationship.
Speaker 2:You're pretty good at challenging them.
Speaker 3:It's my passion, man. I don't want to see someone bail, fall and lose everything. It's just. I know that feeling Reluctancy is a part of the process.
Speaker 3:What happens, though, is when a guy comes and meets with me, I start to build trust with them. A lot of times, men, yeah, we have a great time hanging out with buddies, but to meet and hang out with somebody who knows all of me, the inner workings of my life, the secrets, the things that I haven't told anybody else, but I told them, those are very rare, and so many guys don't have that. I would say probably over 95% of men do not have that kind of relationship with another guy, especially with somebody like a coach or therapist, somebody who can help them move forward. So reluctancy is always going to be part of the process, but what has to happen is that they start to build trust with somebody like myself or another coach or therapist. That trust is important so that they can start to open themselves up to a new process that they've never experienced before. They can do it, but it's going to take time, effort and major commitment to do so.
Speaker 1:You know when you all said like the sandbox, like if they want to come in there, like what is it that you need?
Speaker 2:from them to be able to join you? Yes, and I think that I don't have the answer to that.
Speaker 3:And I think that's where I of that is. I need that answer. You know I typically and this is something just to be aware if someone goes through a betrayal or a cheating or an affair, you know if someone is wholeheartedly into it. You know that's a good year long process of weekly work that is strong accountability, professionals involved, that is going to be intentional about healing All right intentional about healing.
Speaker 3:For you guys, yes, for you guys. And so it's not and this is where I say this, because we know we've been through it and we help others through it is that it's going to take everything he has inside of him to fight for this. You want to see that, everything he has inside of him to fight for this. You want to see that. I love it when I work with people that say this I have changed. I mean, I have a completely different heart now. It's not a struggle with me, I'm a different person and I say uh-huh, then you'll prove it over time. One of the key terms I use is consistency. Over time, let's see it. Keep your, keep you going through the process, keep working on this and be consistent. Keep showing up, keep doing the work, keep being there for your, for your wife, keep doing the work on a daily bit, keep growing. You know this is important because trust is a critical point here. To rebuild that trust In trust, we see it this way there's four things you got to have to have trust with your spouse.
Speaker 3:One is being authentic authentic with yourself and authentic with your wife. Second is being reliable, showing up, doing what you say you're going to do All right. Third is to be growing your competency. It's like I'm going to grow because obviously I got to this place by not having a competency in this, and so I'm going to grow and be a person of growth. And the fourth thing is I'm going to grow and be a person of growth. And the fourth thing is I'm going to be a person who cares care for my wife, my kids and those around me, care for myself, and so those four things to build trust with your spouse, you've got to have all four of them.
Speaker 3:So when someone says to me I'm better, I'm good, I'm good, yeah, okay, whatever, let's keep on going Because you can say you're good because you're not acting out anymore, you're not looking at porn, you're not acting out, you know what, you have some consistency, but you might be white knuckling this just so that you can prove that you're doing better. And it's really not a change of heart and mind. You got to remember it's a brain issue. Your brain is broken and you got to bring healing to your brain and so if someone says I'm good after a few weeks or a few months, your brain doesn't operate that way. It doesn't heal that fast. It has to be something that you are going through a process on a long-term journey so that you can actually experience a full restoration. So we got to be really careful when someone says that, okay, and I ought to say I'll put a flag of caution up If your spouse is saying I'm good, now three months, I'm doing really good, I got three months.
Speaker 3:Well, good for you. How about a year? How about five years? How about 10 years? I know that's scary, but you know what we want to see at least 90 days, three months of just no activity in a sexual addiction. We got to break the cycle. That's just 90 days to break a cycle. Then you got to go in and do the healing work in that person's life. Well, that takes a long time. We say at least a year through a process, but it could go on for three to five years that you're actually continuing to work on this. So that's not just becoming a pattern change, it becomes a heart change or a mind change.
Speaker 4:That is one of the reasons why we started this organization is because we wanted to be able to not only help people with the story that that we walked through and you know the, the skills that we have learned, but also we commit to walking alongside of people, ourselves and our coaches. And so what happens is is that when you hit the bumps in the road and when you hit the questions, that you're not alone and you have someone to talk to about that. So that's the great thing about having the commitment to having support is because then when you hit intersections I mean we've all gone down um, you know the road and let's say there's, you know, five intersections between our house and our destination. Each of those intersections are all moments of possibility and I've always talked to people about paying attention to the intersections of your life.
Speaker 4:When I'm going from destination point A to point B and I have five intersections and there's possibilities in each and every one of those and I have people to process that with and walk with. Like, okay, do I turn right, Do I turn left? Do I keep going? Do I slow down? What hazard could be potentially in this intersection? Do I need to floor it? Because I need to try to make this light before it changes. If I have people to process that with, then it's not like I have to make a decision about my destination. Yet I'm making a decision at each intersection, right, and each of those intersections are informing me about what it looks like to make it to the next intersection, and then, when I'm at the next intersection, I me about what it looks like to make it to the next intersection, and then, when I'm at the next intersection, I'm processing what it looks like to make the decision for the next intersection, and that works. That works.
Speaker 2:Marriage Health with James and Terry.
Speaker 5:Craft. If you feel like you need someone to come alongside you coach or counselor reach out to us. Link is in the description.
