Understanding FAMA: An Inside Look at Fire Apparatus Manufacturers Association

In this episode of Rig Recon Live, Bruce Quick and Jason Witmier dive into the world of the Fire Apparatus Manufacturers Association (FAMA). Joined by FAMA President Gary Pacilio, they discuss the organization's mission, its crucial role in the emergency vehicle industry, and its influence on safety standards, government advocacy, and industry technology. The discussion also highlights the upcoming 2025 Apparatus Design Symposium aimed at educating end users. Tune in to learn how FAMA supports both manufacturers and firefighters, enhancing technology, safety, and efficiency in fire apparatus.

Chapter Markers:
00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:58 Introducing FAMA and Guest Gary Pacilio

01:24 Understanding FAMA's Mission and Structure

05:37 FAMA's Impact on End Users

09:23 Government Advocacy and Funding

15:09 Importance of FAMA Membership

17:58 Useful Tools on the FAMA Website

20:51 FAMA's Apparatus Design Symposium

26:46 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

RRL - FAMA - S2E1

[00:00:00] 

Bruce Quick: You're listening to another episode of Rig Recon Live. I'm Bruce Quick alongside Jason Witmier. And before we get started on today's podcast, if you haven't already, follow us at Rig Recon on Instagram and Facebook. You can get this podcast wherever you get your podcasts, including YouTube.

And most importantly, visit our website, rigrecon. com, where you can find all the latest apparatus content. Podcast content, and even product comparisons and much more. Today, our episode is about FAMA [00:01:00] or Fire Apparatus Manufacturers Association, FAMA for short. And we're lucky to be joined by the current president, Gary Pacilio.

Gary joined FAMA as a member in 2017 and has been on the board since 2021. So Gary, we appreciate your time today and thanks for joining us on Rig Recon Live.

Gary Pacilio: Happy to be here.

Bruce Quick: So let's get right into it. A lot of our audience may be end users and maybe haven't heard of FAMA before. So if you just want to give a general synopsis of sort of what FAMA is.

Gary Pacilio: Sure. FAMA actually has been around for 74 years and next year we'll be actually celebrating the 75th anniversary of FAMA and really the mission of FAMA is really just to advance the knowledge, safety, and opportunities of growth and probability for the emergency vehicle both operate original equipment manufacturers, as well as the component suppliers, these companies that are, that are members of FAMA, you know, work together hand in hand to A lot of the critical standards and safety protocols to ensure that our first responders remain safe and that we provide the best [00:02:00] technology and the best product in the field for our communities and our first responders.

And obviously it focuses a lot about training and education make sure that our members and our end users, you know, derive and deliver. The best standards and technical solutions to the apparatus and all the functionality that it has on these really cool and important pieces of equipment. Also, we do a lot of government advocacy, both federal and state level, and we also provide a very critical statistical information to our members around You know, the various kinds of orders and units shipped based on the kind of product that the that the end users in the markets are requesting and needing, especially with the long backlogs of this industry has seen over the last four to five years.

So it's really cool organizations been around a long time has been multiple generations of leaders that have come through and still remain a part of this critical organization for the industry.

Bruce Quick: Yeah, great. And if I didn't preface this before to our listeners, Gary Pacilio is the current [00:03:00] president of the on the board of FAMA and also our own Jason Witmier is the vice president. So we have quite a bit of experience of FAMA on this podcast. Let's go a little bit deeper though. Can you explain maybe the construction of the organization, how the board of directors work, and maybe some specific things that the organization does?

Gary Pacilio: Sure. Presently we have around 139 members and that that fluctuates anywhere between 135 and 150 depending on what year and what's going on. But it's been pretty stable or over many, many, many years. And the board is constructed with a executive committee, which is includes the first Past president.

So as I'm president this year and we roll into 2025, I'll be still a member of the executive board next year as past president. And then the president and Bruce Whitehouse will be taken over for me in 2025 as president. And then we have the vice president, which as you said, Jason will be vice president next year.

So the executive board structure is the first past president, the current president and the vice president. And then there's some other really critical board [00:04:00] members. We have two director at large positions and we have a secretary, And also a treasure. And also the really cool part of the structure of the board is we alternate between the OEM member and a component member.

So there's, it's trying to keep as much balance as we can on the board. So we have really even representation of all of its members that help do this, drive the mission and accomplish the goals of the organization, which is really, again, to serve the industry and to serve our end users the best possible way.

Jason Witmier: So just, just in case our end users don't understand some of what that meant, the OEM is your truck manufacturer. Because I realized we throw around that term all the time and it means a lot to us in the industry. But for an end user, sometimes they're like, well, what are you talking about? So we try to keep that balance between the guys that are building the truck and then the people that build the components for the truck.

Gary Pacilio: Perfect. Yep. Thanks, Jason.

Bruce Quick: Right, and then also to reiterate that each member company does have a primary representative that votes on subjects that the board presents about as well.

Gary Pacilio: Yeah. So [00:05:00] we, you know, we have our, our biannual meetings and any member company can bring as many members they would like to those meetings. And there's a lot of subcommittees and whether it be technical or marketing or otherwise and they can participate in any of those meetings, but each member company has one vote for those things that we that we vote on as an organization to move our organizations forward.

We, we, every member company, whether it's an OEM or a component supplier gets one vote. So it's balanced as well.

Bruce Quick: Right, and like we talked about, FAMA is made up of industry professionals who either manufacture fire apparatus or components and equipment for the fire apparatus. But let's talk a little bit about the end user. How does FAMA benefit end users, specifically across North America?

Gary Pacilio: Well, at the end of the day, we all have jobs because of the end user. We all are safe in our communities because you have the brave men and women who serve our communities statewide and around the country to make sure that our communities stay safe. So the end users are the [00:06:00] reasons we're here. That's, I think, first and paramount to say, but you know, the end users are also critical into how we evolve as an organization.

So, as I said, you think about technology in the automotive market over the 25, 35 years, technology has rapidly improved the both the safety and functionality and performance of any vehicle. And that's no different than for fire apparatus. So, we, and our meetings and certainly in our technical committees we make sure that we are listening to the to the voice of the end user.

And so they guide us and do everything that we do around safety and functionality of this apparatus. And that we make sure that we're building. the momentum and the standards, the programs and the content for all of the members and all the industry to make sure that we're serving future generations of end users across the country in North America.

Bruce Quick: Yeah. So to piggyback off of that, Jason and I recently did a podcast on NFPA 1900, right now, I know that's a big thing for the end users is the NFP, NFPA [00:07:00] uh, codes and FAMA does have some sort of influence with NFPA. Right. If I

Gary Pacilio: Yeah, we have a seat on the board on the committee of NFPA it's a very important seat. FAMA has several seats on several critical boards outside of our own association. And so we take that role very seriously. We rotate those positions. We make sure we have technical expertise in those standard bodies that, where we can help influence and certainly support where the whole industry wants to go to make sure that our first responders stay safe and have the best possible equipment as possible.

Jason Witmier: We, we, we talked a lot when we did the podcast on NFPA. We talked about the The the balance and the fact that we're looking at safety standards and sometimes the end user looks at some of the things we do with NFPA and says, man, you're just overloading us with codes. The cool part about what FAMA does.

So we're hearing from the end user. I mean, we're working with the OEMs, we're working with the suppliers. So we hear the feedback [00:08:00] from a customer. I don't like this. Why, why can't I have it this way? But then we also know from a manufacturing side, what goes into it. How does a truck go together? What does it take to build it?

Gary Pacilio: So we've got that nice balance that we can bring into NFPA to say, well, if you want to put this code in, that's really going to mess up your OEM, or that's really going to mess up your end user. Cause he's not gonna be able to deal with that. That's where we really have a great voice on that board. Yeah, I think another good example, you know, we talk a lot about the technology and the functionality and the aesthetics of the fire truck which are all really important, but another area where in the last, I'd 10 years is my time as a member of FAMA that's really come into play is we've kind of standardized as something as simple as the graphics and the decals that are required to be on a fire truck.

So when, if you went from department to department, or you've got new young firefighters, That it's intuitive and it's standard that they want to know where to step, how something is used. [00:09:00] So just a simple simple standardization around graphics and decals of a fire apparatus. FAME has been involved in that with the technical committee to make sure that we, that we lead the way in making sure these apparatus get more and more efficient, more and more safe, and more and more standard.

Jason Witmier: Another, another good example, Bruce of where FAMA benefits, the end user would be some of our influence on the government. So some of it comes down to funding. I think all of our end users are out there, are very familiar with the AFG program, the Assistance to Firefighters grant, and how that's funded. So FAMA, along with other groups like Congressional Fire Service Institute, the International Association of Fire Chiefs, every year, All of these groups get together and go to Capitol Hill and talk to all the politicians and, and it stressed to them how important this funding is, how it's used, where it's going to benefit them in each state and how critical it is to keeping our fire [00:10:00] service intact in this country.

I mean, we all realize that a major part of our fire service in the United States is volunteer, and that funding needs to come from somewhere to help keep them running. They're doing a lot of fundraising on their own, but we're out there as an advocate for that end user to push the government to keep funding them and helping them out.

Gary Pacilio: Yeah, nearly 70%, Jason, to your point, as our volunteer departments across the country. And, you know, there's two key critical components to the government advocacy, the Hill Day, which is really critical. We've got one coming up here in February. So we encourage all of our members to attend that and go and we try and line up member companies with their, with their delegations from their, their representative states.

But the other cool thing that, that, that the GAC does, the government advocacy committee does for FAMA, In conjunction with FEMSA is to make sure that each of the member companies have a home day. So, to continue to support not just the, the narrative and the policies and the funding that, that, that keep our end users, you know, [00:11:00] and especially the ones that are going after those grants funded, but we also make sure that we bring in our delegations, whether it be state or local or federal to show them how important the employment.

base and the communities benefit from having these component or equipment manufacturers in their states, in their delegations, in their, in their areas of of responsibility, because there's a lot of jobs just in the state of Georgia, where I live, there's over a thousand jobs that, that support.

Fire service industry. And if you look across the entire country, those numbers even get bigger based on what state they are in. So those home days, which we just did one here about three weeks ago, it was attended by our Congressman and other local dignitaries, and it was really, really, really important.

And then we got in the community, the company and our employees benefited, not just those end users that will benefit from funding the, to supporting the funding for apparatus in the future.

Jason Witmier: Bruce, before we jump on, one of the things I wanted to back up to, so we, we mentioned our mission statement. And [00:12:00] one of the things in our mission statement talks about profitability of the companies. So as you're an end user and you're sitting there, you're thinking, what do I care if, if the, the K and E's, the Pierce's, the E1's of the world, or the safe fleets for where I work or, or Fouts brothers where, where Gary works, why do I care if they're profitable? It's it's important. It's critical. We're all in a business. And an example I would give a firefighter would be look at American LaFrance back in the day. It's, it's a popular name that was in the fire industry and was building trucks. When American LaFrance went bankrupt and went away, there were several people that had trucks in production that were now sitting there going, well, what happens now?

I mean, I, I paid for half this truck and it's not finished. More importantly, all the trucks that were out there in the field. Now who's going to maintain these trucks and, and have replacement parts because let's face the facts, stuff happens. You know, we, we [00:13:00] put these trucks through a lot. We break them at times.

You need a company to be healthy. Now, one misnomer in the fire service that I'll get out there and you may or may not believe me if you're an end user, none of these apparatus manufacturers are making money hand over fist

Gary Pacilio: I would add to that. So if you think I've been blessed to be both on the component side and on the original equipment manufacturing side and certainly the, the OEM side is a challenge, you know, especially on the custom side of building these very complex I'll call them a little bit, almost like unicorns or they're very specific to the fire department's choice and the chief's preference and the department and the areas of what they live and the demographics and, and And there's a lot of investment that goes into these trucks and the cycle time between when they spec a truck and when they actually get delivered is three or four years.

So there's a lot of investments that the OEM makes to in both technology and product and people and plants to get these over the finish line. And this is probably in my almost 40 year career. This is [00:14:00] the the highest, the best example of a. Low volume, high mix manufacturing operation. I've ever been a part of it, my almost 40 year career.

So it's really a great point, Jason, that there's really critical investments that the OEMs have to make the partnerships with the component suppliers, as well as the dealers. It's a really a strong triangulated network that has to work together to make sure that our departments and our firefighters get what they need.

Jason Witmier: And, and I know for an end user right now, you're sitting there and you're going, well, hang on five years ago, I could buy a pumper for. 350, 500, 000 somewhere in there. Now it's a million dollars. So how can you guys tell me you're not making money? The prices have gone up because everything involved with that truck has gone up.

Gary Pacilio: Yeah, they were on the rise before the pandemic, obviously. And then since the pandemic inflation has continued to drive those prices up. And obviously you can't speak for all the different companies involved here, but Jason is, what he's saying is right. We see it everywhere in our, in our country and around, around North America, prices of [00:15:00] fuel and prices of labor, the prices of material, prices of transportation, and, and, and have all impacted the price of apparatus.

Bruce Quick: Yeah, 100%. And speaking of being a member of FAMA, right, let's talk about maybe the importance of why it is important that FAMA exists and talk about even prospective member companies, why it's crucial for them to sign up.

Gary Pacilio: There are, you know, we've talked about many of them already, but just to kind of summarize it, there are really four critical pillars of FAMA. We've talked about the NFPA, NFPA influence and the, and the, and the standards that we try and make sure that, that, that meet the critical need of the end user of the technical committee that supports both NFPA, as well as the standards bodies around these apparatus are critical part of bringing that the member.

Companies, whether there are no EM or component together to work together, which ultimately leads to the technical safety guides for these apparatus and for the industry to make sure that those things that we are, those products that we are delivering [00:16:00] meet the safety expectations and guidelines of the industry.

We talked about the the government political advocacy for funding. And then finally, the, and this has been going to be a little bit of a fundamental shift for FAMA. Is my 10, nearly 10 years on the board. You know, we've talked as a member and recently on the board, we've talked a lot about, are we an internally focused organization or an externally focused organization?

And there's a good, healthy, Discussion and debate about whether we should be more integrally focused to make sure that the famous members are together and that we're trying to win together to serve these industry of the end users, which are so vital to all of us. But there's also an argument to made around the external impact, which is why I think Jason probably is leading this industry conversation with end users because we as a board in the last few years have decided to To pivot from primarily an internally focused organization for our members to an externally focused organization.

And with that comes a responsibility to train, inform, collaborate, [00:17:00] and ultimately have symposium sessions around how do we get better, how does technology help firefighters stay safe and fight fires faster, and to protect our communities. And so in 2025 Uh, FAMA is going to be, you know, sticking our toe into that water, and we're going to have an apparatus symposium that's going to be strictly focused on the end user to collaborate and communicate and also, you know, drive us into a place together where we can We're FAMA will ultimately listen to the end user, provide technical sessions, no sales pitches, but technical sessions and technical debates about how do we go forward as an organization.

But by reaching out to the external audience outside of our members, that is a one plus one equals three equation because we're going to get the feedback of the end users to help us go for places we probably wouldn't have otherwise.

Bruce Quick: Right. Yeah. So really interested to hear about the apparatus design symposium and we'll get to that. But right before that, [00:18:00] Let's circle back and talk about, I've heard there's some powerful and useful tools on the FAMA website that people should be aware of. So if

Gary Pacilio: Yeah, obviously, in addition to the vision and the mission statements and the board of directors, as well as all the member companies, there's all the contact information. So if you are an end user and you are interested in looking at a different kind of product, whether it be a full fire truck or some subcomponent, All the number of companies who contribute to all these apparatus are listed there, and you can find any of the contact information on the website.

There's also the buyer's guides from FAMA, and they just basically provide a general overview of each of the subjects that are involved with the fire truck, whether it be flowing of water, whether it be a loose equipment, whether it be the apparatus, you know, drive shafts, and pump capability or the cab safety of, you know, there's a huge interest and focus on keeping our firefighters safe around cancer awareness and prevention.

So all those FAMA buyer guides are listed on there for years of the past and the ones that we're working on [00:19:00] today. And then there's obviously all the things that calculate and weigh in on, on the apparatus itself. So weight distribution, flow of water, you know, cab length, Vehicle length, life cycle, etc.

All that information is on the website and can, and, and along with all the contact information, so an end user has a plethora of, of, of resources from the one organization called FAMA that they can reach out to and ask questions and, and inform themselves as they go through their next specking of a, of a, of a fire apparatus, and so they're, they make really informed decision and partner with, with, with a body that is really there to help them win.

Jason Witmier: so we've, we've mentioned the website a couple of times or thrown out and said, there's a website just so everyone's clear. The website is FAMA. org or FAMA. org. And like, like Gary said, there's a lot of tools out there. I'll give you a great example of a buyer's guide. So buyer's guide. Gary mentioned this.

It's not a sales pitch. It's an education on a [00:20:00] part. So a great example would be a suspension. Let's say you're looking to buy a new fire apparatus and you're not necessarily worried right now about what brand suspension am I going to use, but there's, there's spring, there's air ride, there's hydraulic assisted.

What does all that mean? And why would I want one versus the other? A lot of times an end user is afraid to go talk to a brand. a manufacturer of the suspension because they're afraid they're going to get a sales pitch just on what that manufacturer makes. What the buyer's guide is designed to do is there's a buyer's guide out there on suspensions that just gives you the facts.

Here's what goes into a spring suspension. Here's what goes into an air ride suspension. Here's the pros and cons of the two and what you might want to consider. These are tools that exist on our website. to help you when you're specking a rig.

Bruce Quick: Right. So Gary mentioned earlier, FAMA is starting a new apparatus design symposium. I know Jason, you're pretty heavily involved in this too. So let's break this down. Let's [00:21:00] talk about the details, elaborate on what it's all about.

Gary Pacilio: Yeah, let me hit the high levels and I'll kick it over to Jason for some of the details. But this is really exciting. So we have our first annual Apparatus Design Symposium scheduled for Monday, October 20th through Thursday, October 23rd, next year, 2025. It's going to be in Orlando, Florida. And again, as Jason said, it's purely an education session for our end users.

You know, by the given by industry experts from the from the famous Association, as well as some other potential and users themselves and in the subject, it would be very cool. And I'm glad Jason walked through some of the details. But we're going to talk about how to spec a truck, how to purchase a truck.

What are some of the systems that are going to be important, electrical, mechanical, et cetera. And then how do we at the end of the day work together to make sure that the The the performance of these vehicles and the future components of these vehicles meet the standards and the needs of the end users.

And this is really a [00:22:00] first step for FAMA to reach out and really drive end user content to make sure that we're, we're working together with our, with our, with the industry to deliver the best product possible. Jason, I'm sure you want to go into more details about some of the sessions.

Jason Witmier: Absolutely. I mean, the key here is who should be attending this? Well, it's anyone that's going to be specifying an apparatus in the coming years. So it could be your fire chief. It could be your maintenance guy. If he gets involved in your specs, it could be your apparatus specification committee. And then the second question is, well, why, why do I want to go to this?

As manufacturers, the mistakes we see over the years, a great starting point for most companies when they're going to spec a new rig is. Okay, what did we buy 15 years ago? Let's start with that spec. That's great from the standpoint of hopefully what you bought works for you in your area, but you've seen huge technology changes since you bought that last rig.

And you can surf the web, you [00:23:00] can look for information, but what we're trying to do is we're trying to give you the facts of here's the latest and greatest things out here, here's how they work. And here's how you want to incorporate them. The second part of it is, we're going to talk to you about how to write a spec.

Because all too often we will see someone writes a spec for a rig, They get it built, then they come in to inspect it and go, well, hang on, this isn't what I really thought I was going to get. Well, there was a disconnect somewhere and that could have been anyone's fault. That could have come from the committee.

It could have come from the salesman. It could have come from the OEM. You got to remember the OEM is going to build what's in writing, not what was in your head, but what's physically in writing. So getting what's in your head down on paper and making sure that it's right, that's critical. And that's where we're going to help.

With this type of symposia, we're, we're going to talk about the latest and greatest in warning lights. Scene lighting has changed so much over the last few years. We're going to talk about different ways to control the [00:24:00] scene light. Some of the neat things that are out there now with things like dimming foam.

We did a podcast on foam. Foam is a dirty word in our industry. Foam is nothing you should be afraid of. There is perfectly fine class B foam out there that meets the code that doesn't cause cancer and class A foam has never had any of that to do with it. So we're not going to necessarily talk about the different foams, we're going to talk about the foam systems.

How do I integrate a foam system into my rig? What's the right way to spec it? What's the right number of discharges I have? Do I have a foam system that will fully support me in what I'm trying to do? One of the exciting topics is compartmentation. So a lot of times when you spec your rig, you're building this big box and it's just got big open holes in it.

How are you going to fill that up? How are you going to fill it up the right way? Make the best use of the space. So we have someone that's going to talk to you about what's out there on the market, different ways to mount your equipment, different ways to carry it and store it, how to be the most efficient [00:25:00] about it.

One of the final topics I'll touch on is to 2027. There's an emissions change coming. Now, a lot of people that are end users know that about 15 years ago, maybe 10 years ago, we made this switch to require diesel exhaust fluid. So that was a government change in emissions that hit us hard in our industry because we weren't necessarily expecting that right away.

There's another change coming in 2027. Everyone's asking questions. What's that going to do to my cab? What's that going to do to my engine performance? Those are the type of answers that we're going to deliver at this symposium for, for people who attend, we, we will be putting ads out starting in the new year.

The dates are set and there has been one little shift. And I wrote this up originally and had Monday to Thursday, we did shift it, it's going to be Tuesday to Friday, but it's those same dates. It's Tuesday, October 21st through Friday, October 24th. The event is [00:26:00] two days. So when we talk Tuesday to Friday, Tuesday and Friday are your travel days.

Wednesday and Thursday is the meet of the actual presentations and meeting with the vendors. And not only are you going to get the opportunity to sit in on classes and learn things, But you're going to have all these vendors around the room who are going to have displays that you can then go mingle with them, learn more about their equipment.

And if nothing else, make a great contact so that when you are specing something and you have a question, you know who to call.

Bruce Quick: Yeah, that's great. I really like the breakdown there. I think this symposium is going to provide a lot of value to the end users and Gary, like you talked about, it's going to make FAMA sort of external focused right where you're listening to the end user and providing feedback and and doing it from an educational standpoint.

Jason, as usual, as we get ready to wrap up the episode, we usually leave the floor open for any final comments or questions, suggestions. So

Jason Witmier: So the only thing I'll say in conclusion is FAMA [00:27:00] exists. Some people thought FAMA existed to benefit the OEMs and the vendors. It absolutely does exist to help coordinate the OEMs and the vendors. But it really exists to better this industry and to help the end user. From an end user standpoint, hopefully now you know a little more about what FAMA is.

If you don't, go to FAMA. org, learn more about it, reach out and ask questions. We're here to help you. The other thing I'll say is Gary, before we're done here, first of all, thank you for joining us and taking part today, but we want to make sure you had a minute to talk about your company too. Because FAMA, we've all volunteered for FAMA and we have to be part of an industry or part of a, an OEM or a vendor to be part of FAMA.

But it's also important to note that you have a full time job and it's in this industry and we wanted to give you a minute to talk about

Gary Pacilio: I appreciate that. Yeah. So I work for Fouts Brothers Inc. We're based in Millsville, Georgia. We have three primary divisions. We have Fouts fire we have the Smyrna truck, which I'm [00:28:00] displaying today, because we had a customer today on the other side, and we also have Fouts commercial vehicles. And so, we on the fire, Fouts fire side, which is most important to this audience you know, have been part of the fire apparatus manufacturing For over 20 years, and Scott Eaton's and the ownership have been, you know, it was Scott's grandfather who actually produced the first fire truck back 30, 40 years ago, and then slowly started building into a business and a product line that actually is quite extensive.

And so we have six basic fire lines here and about seven or eight different products that we offer. On a commercial chassis, with the exception of the one that we have on the FB 94 from Spartan. And so we we have been providing apparatus for, like I said, for over 20 years, almost 20 years.

And these products are are now nationwide. And we primarily serve the smaller departments. The ones that you would talk about earlier, Jason you know, some of the big, big departments, they, they prefer the custom fire trucks and, [00:29:00] and all of ours are on commercial chassis. But we're a proud member of FAMA, Scott, my, owner here is also the past president of FAMA, is a big big advocate for FAMA and for we do, whether it be technical or government or just providing the end user with the best possible apparatus with the shortest cycle times and the shortest lead times that we possibly can get to to make sure that the, that the, that the departments have what they need to serve their community.

So I appreciate the opportunity to talk about files.

Jason Witmier: it. Absolutely.

Bruce Quick: Yes. So this wraps up another episode of rig recon live. You heard it here. We talked about the FAMA today, and if you want more information, you can go to FAMA. org. You can get those buyer guides like we were talking about, or just learn in general about what FAMA has to offer. We also talked about the new apparatus design symposium that's coming in 2025.

So look forward to that. There'll be more and more information coming out as Jason hinted, they're going to be running ads and all, all sorts of that. So again, this wraps up another episode. If you haven't already follow us at rig recon on [00:30:00] Instagram and Facebook and visit our website, rig recon. com until then spec the best.