Cannabis Neuroscience and Harm Reduction

In our fourth episode of Campus Conversations, we explore student perspectives, scientific research, and harm reduction strategies around cannabis. We feature mini-interviews with students at WWU, and our special guest is Dr. Josh Kaplan, Associate Professor of Behavioral Neuroscience at WWU, who shares insights into the effects of cannabis on the brain.

Transcript

WWU Campus Conversations Episode 3 Transcript

0:01
I’m Shaggy sitting by a fountain 
Having conversations 
About well-being and how to be alive 
I’m sitting with my fish friend 
Feeling all my feelings 
Asking what it would be like if we could thrive 
We can thrive 
It’s Campus Conversations
It's Campus Conversations
It's Campus Conversations
It's Campus Conversations

0:39

Hello everyone and welcome back to Campus Conversations. I'm Riley and I'm Chloe, and we will be your hosts today. We are a student-founded and led production through the Counseling and Wellness Center at Western Washington.

0:51 

Our goal is to spark conversations about mental and sexual well-being, consent and healthy relationships, and substance harm reduction because it's OK to talk about it.

0:59

So in today's episode, we're going to talk, talk about cannabis and cannabis harm reduction. Here in Washington state, cannabis is legal for people 21 years of age and older. Please consult your local laws if you are tuning in from outside of Washington state. Also, cannabis is federally not recognized as a legal substance. The views, information, and opinions expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of Western Washington University. 

01:24 

While not everyone uses drugs, the truth is most of us are impacted by it in some way or another, and it can be hard to find spaces to have conversations that are rooted in science and not centered in fear. 

01:35 

Yeah, definitely. And we'd also like to acknowledge that there's a long history of racialized criminalization of cannabis that is ongoing today. This episode focuses on the science, knowledge, and skills behind harm reduction, but we encourage everyone to do their own research into the history of cannabis.

01:50 

Alright, so up first in today's episode, we have compiled some student interviews that we conducted on campus a few weeks ago about student experiences with weed. Yeah. So our first question was why or why don't you use cannabis? And here are some student responses.

02:07 

I only use it recreationally. I have a set boundary for myself that I don't do it, like, without others. Like, I do it as a fun thing with my friends. I have very rampant ADHD and I'm unmedicated for it. So sometimes it does help me kind of focus up and be able to do stuff. So I don't, like, use it for homework, but, like, cleaning. Sometimes, sometimes. If I'm with friends. Yeah, generally, just to have fun.

02:33

I don't use cannabis personally because I'm kind of wary of developing tolerances for things and messing up my brain chemistry. I took psychopharmacology last quarter, so now I know all the details about what it does. But I don't, like, really have anything against it. I just personally prefer to not have substances doing stuff to my brain.

02:56

I do use cannabis. I use it recreationally. It will help me go to sleep sometimes, but most often, especially with the people that I'm around, we use it to wind down. I wouldn't use it if it started giving me panic attacks. I've been advised from my psychiatrist to be careful because I'm on SSRIs. So if somebody wanted to start using cannabis and was, also had a different medication, it would be good to watch out for interactions. But otherwise, I don't think it's particularly bad for people.

03:27 

So I don't use cannabis because it makes me really anxious and I'm already an anxious person and I just don't really see the point in getting high.

03:42 

Personally, I started using cannabis as a tool to help me with appetite and to help with food consumption and making sure that I'm getting enough nutrition and, like, food in my body daily. So that was, like, the main purpose for me.

04:02 

I personally don't use. I've used it before, but I just know I don't react that well to it or I do, but the drawbacks are too much, especially like class. You know, like, if I, you know, have a little bit at night, I probably won't be 100% for tomorrow. So, you know, I just, I just tend not to unless I'm, like, with a good group of friends. And even if I do, it's only a tad bit.

04:33 

I use cannabis because it is a very interesting window into the mind, basically. I, like, I think the experience is very interesting and I have found from anecdotal experience that I have significantly different experiences than most of the people in my life that also use cannabis, and so I think that's very fascinating. Yeah, I find it to be a very interesting, even an intellectual experience. Actually, I like studying while on cannabis because it allows me to think of things in interesting ways.

05:04 

I don't use cannabis. I used to when I was younger and then I started developing really bad pain. I had, like, some nerve pain that was happening. So it was making it a lot worse. And then I also realized it was really bad for my motivation. I was not able to, like, get stuff done as much. So once I stopped, I was doing a lot better in, like, math, things like that.

05:23 

I use cannabis because it's fun and it makes me feel good.

05:31 

I use cannabis, I'd say once or twice a month. It helps me ground myself in moments when I didn't think I needed to be grounded in.

05:47 

I do not use cannabis because it costs, it costs money, and if I can have a great time without it and be there to drive people home or anything like that, then I'm good.

06:00

Our second question was how are you intentional about how you engage with substances?

06:07

How am I intentional? I refuse it if it's offered to me and make sure that any friends who do are being at least sort of safe.

06:18

I am not quite as intentional as probably I need to be, but I will try to set kind of an intention for why I'm doing it and, like, maybe have a goal in mind or just, like, try to, like, keep, keep a, like, strategic kind of mindset in terms of, like, how I'm actually, like, partaking in it.

06:37 

I try to, I do just try to limit the quantity that I consume and, like, the number of days that I do consume it.

06:45 

I would say that when I do use cannabis products, I make sure that I'm, I'm not using it when I'm just like out in public. If I'm using it then it's, it's, like, I'm in a safe place. I'm normally at a small, like, kickback with friends and people I know.

07:06 

Recently I've been kind of into the kind of ritualistic aspect of it all. So like, for example, when I smoke weed, I don't use a dab pen and I don't use resins. I exclusively smoke flower, and when I do that, I make an herb mix and then I make sure that I have a nice piece of glassware so that I have to go through the entire process to do it. So it's not just like a quick puff and then hide it away. I also try to use substances more when I'm with people than when I'm alone.

07:40

I make sure that I'm not doing it to fill time. I, like, got, when I first started smoking weed, I had, like, a very big habit of, like, being bored. And so I was like, “Oh, might as well smoke.” And then I was like, “Maybe that's not a good idea.” And so I'm, like, now, just make a really conscious effort to make sure that there's, like, an, like, positive aspect of the reason why I'm taking this or, like, not a negative deflection also of the reason why I'm taking it.

08:10 

I'm intentional by just being aware, like, if it's off to me, I don't have to say yes and I can only do if I feel like it. I make sure that nothing I do is, like, daily or habitual. You know, I like to drink with my friends every once in a while and stuff like that. But I don't, like, if you're doing something every day. I feel like it kind of starts to, even if you're not like a, necessarily addicted, it's kind of a bit of a habit, and that can't be too much of a, a fun thing is not really that fun anymore. So I try to make sure to be mindful of, like, how I'm using things and things like that.

08:45 

And then for our last question was what is one thing you wish you knew about cannabis sooner?

08:52 

I wish I knew about, like, some of the health benefits that went with it. I do have a background in health. At first, I grew up in a place that was, like, strongly against any substances, but then I do know it can be used for medical purposes. Certain medical conditions more than others, but, you know, I, I do think there is some good in it. I just think it should be used the right way, you know, like, you know, you should, you should do it safely, you know.

09:25 

Oh, definitely all of the side effects that come from it. I don't feel like a lot of people know this, that different strains can have a much higher THC potency than other strains do. I, I know that just because I don't, I'm like a nerd about that. But yeah, a lot of people don't know that or know that there are 90% THC products. So they take an edible thinking, oh, this is just 25 milligrams, I'm going to be fine, and then they're not. And I wish more people were educated about the things that they use.

10:04 

I wish people would advertise, like, more stuff around, like, not using cannabis and driving. I feel like that's a really big issue because people are, like, “It's not drinking and driving.” And I’m like, “It's still not good.” Or just, like, I don't know. I feel like talking about, like, using it more in moderation, but more of just, like, you don't have to be high to go to class every day, like, using it to help you, but also not using it to, like, be functional and knowing when you need to, like, get help outside of cannabis.

10:34 

Maybe just, like, it definitely is, like, addictive. I feel like that's, like, a common misconception. 

10:39 

I think I would probably wish that I knew, like, the different ways that, like, different kinds of it can affect you and, like, how, how you should be really careful about, like, the delivery methods. Like, I don't know, carts are so simple and so easy that they, like, can, like, rot your brain when you like use them too much. And it's just being maybe a little bit more educated on, yeah, like the process of how it's, like, created.

11:06 

I suppose I'd say, a lot of people who use it frequently, they say it's like non-addictive, it's, like, not a real drug or something, but, like, yeah, like, you can definitely get addicted to weed. I think there's, like, an overly enabling culture around weed, like, there's, there's no such thing as a bad drug, but, like, it depends.

11:37 

Honestly, I kind of wish I knew that, you know, smoking or doing anything like that doesn't make you a bad person. And I know that sounds kind of funny, but, but in my, like, in, like, when I grew up it was very, like, villainized in a way, like, it kind of turned you into, like, a lazy person and a bad person. And you know, and everyone has different circumstances. And I feel, like, right, like, now my mind is way more open to people that actually use it. And I feel like that's super important because someone, just because someone uses a substance or does smoke marijuana or whatever, it doesn't make them a bad person. They just happen to be in a different circumstance. 

12:15 

I don't know, the importance of tolerance breaks. I think that if you are using cannabis often, it can quickly become something that your body becomes dependent on. As with any other substance that alters your chemical terrain in your brain. The, the cracks and crevices in there. So I feel like it's important to try to take a break at least every month just to unplug and know what you're like without substances, because knowing yourself is more important than taking substances.

12:51 

Yeah, overall I really enjoyed the interview process. It was super fun to hear about everyone's perspectives and hear from both sides. People who, who use it, who don't, and people are pretty passionate, too, which I thought was cool. 

13:05 

Yeah, there's a lot of different experiences there for sure. So now that we've gathered some student perspectives, we also wanted to gather an expert perspective. So we also interviewed Dr. Josh Kaplan, an associate professor in the Behavioral Neuroscience program at Western, who researches cannabis. Over to you, Charlie, for that interview.

13:23 

Hey, my name is Charlie. Welcome to Campus Conversations. Thank you for coming on to our podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? 

13:29

Sure. Well, first off, thank you for having me. My name is Josh Kaplan. I'm an associate professor of Behavioral Neuroscience here at Western Washington.

13:37 

Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about your role here and what you do?

13:41 

Yeah, so my research lab focuses on studying the therapeutic benefits of cannabis, as well as trying to understand the developmental impacts that it can have on the brain.

13:55 

OK, OK. So we're going to just jump right in. What do you think the biggest misconception about cannabis is?

14:06 

I think there are quite a few misconceptions out there. Probably the biggest is that the current cannabis that people are consuming is safe and not addictive. I think that narrative stems from research that was conducted many decades ago that was really based on people's use of cannabis products that really no longer exist anymore. If you think about the changing potency, that is, how much of the primary intoxicating chemical THC is found in a given plant or product, it was much, much lower back in the 70s, 80s and 90s when those studies were conducted. At that point, the average THC amount in a given flower that people would smoke was about 3 to 5%. Now it's over 18, so when we look back at those studies, sure, those were valid studies and valid conclusions from those data, but we are in a completely different space right now in dealing with a different product, really, altogether, and there's plenty of evidence that people can form a dependence. They can form severe use disorders on cannabis that kind of fit that addiction criteria. And so this idea that it's safe, that you can't get addicted, is just wrong.

15:32 

So the, the cannabis that we're using now has a much higher potency than the cannabis that was around in like the 90s or the 70s.

15:40 

Correct, and plus a lot of people are making it even more potent by creating dabs or other concentrates that make the amount of THC they're consuming vastly higher. And we know that people, even if they know they're using a stronger product, aren't good at titrating their dose, meaning they, they don't use less or they don't, you know, take smaller hits or eat smaller edibles. They kind of eat the same amount, smoke the same amount. They have the same amount, it's just that they're now consuming even more THC than they would have had the product been, you know, the same one you would have had in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

16:18 

That is so interesting how it has changed over time. That's really interesting.

16:22 

I think some of that has been driven by consumer demand as well as the recreational market. People use cannabis mainly to get stoned or to get high even in the medicinal space, which is where I'm particularly interested and we can talk about that in, in a little bit. But that is really what's driving the market. And one of the problems with using cannabis repeatedly is people can develop a tolerance to it, and so they need to take more and more and more. And that's driving the market to produce products that have more THC in it.

16:54 

That makes a lot of sense. So can you explain, kind of just give us an overview on like what terpenes are, CBD and THC, and, like, the difference between those things?

17:05 

Sure. And that's something I think a lot about in my research, because we actually don't even study THC in my laboratory. From the medicinal end of the cannabis spectrum that we're interested in, we're really interested in pediatric conditions. So in conditions that children experience, and so we are looking for the safest treatment possible for these children who otherwise don't get therapeutic benefits from the medications they're currently taking. So we actually don't even think much about THC in my laboratory, which again, is that the chemical produced by the plant that makes people stoned. So we're, we're in the non intoxicating arm of this of this spectrum. So we focus a lot of our work on cannabidiol, which is abbreviated to CBD. And you find this all over the place. You can find it at airports, gas stations, or even your rec shop. And what makes CBD different than THC is it doesn't make people stoned, but it is thought to convey many of the therapeutic benefits that have historically been ascribed to the plant. So this is one of many what we call phytocannabinoids, cannabinoids produced by the plant and, and that's something we're greatly interested in. 

In addition to the phytocannabinoids, the cannabis plant produces an array of what we call terpenes. This is really just a colloquial term for a big class of compounds known as volatile organic compounds, which is just a mouthful, so we'll go with terpenes. And there's a wide range of terpenes. It, it, it's really the terpenes that give cannabis a unique odor and flavor. If you're, you know, walking down the hallway and you smell weed, it, it's not the THC you smell, it's actually the terpenes. And there's been a recent appreciation that the terpenes themselves may convey some of the therapeutic benefits of of the cannabis plant, or even impact the way that CBD or THC is acting in the brainand body. So what we are trying to do in the laboratory is harness this combination of the terpenes with CBD to make better medicine by not just using CBD on its own or the terpenes, but putting them together in meaningful ways that can have an even stronger effect to combat symptoms.

19:15 

Wow, that's really amazing. So you're saying that the terpenes are separate from the compound that, like, THC, that makes you high?

19:22 

Correct. They're totally independent and cannabis is not the only plant that makes it. Any real plant or even food product that has a specific kind of smell to it, a particular odor, it's really being derived from the terpenes themselves. For instance, cannabis produces certain terpenes that are found in many other plants, and these are ones that we're looking at in the lab. For instance, linalyl is produced in high amounts in the cannabis plant but it also is what gives lavender that distinct odor. So we're studying linalyl. There's other ones as well, like beta-caryophyllene, which gives black pepper its kind of spiciness. We're also studying that because it's produced by the cannabis plant. And if we kind of put these different terpenes and unique combinations, maybe they'll have therapeutic effects on their own. And we've actually looked at cannabis-derived terpene blends in our, in our disease models, in the lab, and we see that they can have really powerful effects themselves.

20:18 

Oh, OK, just so I understand this, like, terpenes are kind of like the oils in the plant, they give it, its, like, smell and, like, stuff?

20:27 

It, it's, it's the unique compounds that do have an odor. The, the whole volatile organic compounds, is that the volatile-ness is the fact that they dissociate away and we smell them. So that is what's stimulating your olfactory system. When people smoke weed or when they're around a lavender plant or smelling pepper or, you know, any of these, these plants, lemongrass, you know, any of these aromatic things that we like to smell, they're enjoyable because of the terpenes themselves. And you can say great, yeah, of course you smell something nice and maybe that is what enhances your mood. But we're really interested to see if it's beyond just stimulating your, your cells and your nose, but even acting directly on the brain itself to have therapeutic effects. And we know this to be the case with a particular terpene that's been well studied, known as beta-caryophyllene. It's, it's again one that gives black pepper spiciness. 

This actually acts on a similar protein in the brain that has anti-inflammatory effects that is also targeted by THC itself. So we think that by combining beta-caryophyllene, for instance, along with some of these other cannabinoids they can get even better effects than the individual pieces on their own.

For those of you who, you know, have read anything in the literature of the cannabis space, you may have heard of the term the entourage effect, which is this idea that the combination of terpenes plus cannabinoids have better effects when used together than individually, and that's something that we're actively testing.

22:10 

Oh, that is really interesting. Wow. Oh my gosh, I feel like I’m learning so much. OK, so the next question that we're going to dive into is through our conversations with other students, we have picked up that a lot of students choose to abstain from cannabis because they experience, like, anxiety or paranoia when they smoke. But other students use cannabis to help manage anxiety. What's the science behind this?

22:37

Yeah, so I think it's best to address this question by thinking about this in the context of THC, which again is, is really what a lot of people are using, even if they're saying they're trying to use it medicinally, they're still seeking out the, the THC.

One of the things that that really impacts THC's effects is the primary target that it's acting on the brain, which is known as a, the cannabinoid receptor, specifically cannabinoid type 1 receptor, sometimes abbreviated as CB1. But we'll just call it the cannabinoid receptor.

Turns out we have our own cannabinoid system in our body that we naturally, we naturally produce these endogenous cannabinoids, but THC acts upon these receptors and that's what makes people feel stoned so they, they, it got the name cannabinoid receptors because THC was discovered before this system in the body. It actually was discovered 30 years before we even knew how it acted. So we discovered a cannabinoid THC. 30 years later they discovered the receptor. So that's why it got the name the cannabinoid receptor. Anyway, that's an aside.

So THC acts upon these receptors and what that does is it usually reduces the chemical signaling in the brain. Now, depending on where those CB1 receptors are, what type of brain cells they're on, where they're found differs from individual to individual, to, to a degree. I mean, we, we, everyone has them all over the brain, but to a degree there might be some variation. And so, and, and, and how strongly THC can act them can differ from person to person based on genetics or other factors.

So if THC is activating these receptors, that can greatly impact brain function. Now, sometimes, depending on where those receptors are found, THC in small amounts can actually reduce anxiety by shifting the, the signaling in the brain in ways that are kind of anxiolytic. We would say they, they reduce anxiety, they can reduce stress. But, when people take too much, the balance actually switches in the opposite direction. Now you actually get enhancement of signaling in the brain regions that are, you know, promoting feelings of, of fear and threat and stress, which is not the goal, right? And so depending on the individual, depending on how much people use that balance can either be targeted correctly or harmfully.

25:19 

OK, so what I'm hearing is that, on one hand, it is really dependent on the person and like the, the, their brain on how they're going to react and also on the other hand how much they consume is a big factor in how anxious someone is going to feel.

25:32

Totally. And the one thing that we can control as an individual without doing a full thorough genetic analysis is don't use too much, right? Because if you're using too much the, the, the, the chances that you're going to overshoot that optimal dose window is much higher, 

25:47

Especially with the higher potency of our modern products. 

25:50

And that's the problem. That's why more and more people say that they're having adverse effects from using because they're overshooting and, and we're tipping the brain's balance in the wrong direction.

26:05  

That makes a lot of sense. That's so interesting. Wow, the way that our brain works is, like, really cool. Like, that it has literal receptors to, to take in these chemicals like, wow.

26:14 

Totally. And you know, we, it's not like we evolved to have receptors for cannabis. It just happened to be that cannabinoids act on these receptors. Otherwise, you know nobody would be smoking weed because there'd be no reason. It wouldn't be doing anything. So it, it really it just happens to be that THC and some of the other cannabinoids produced by the plant act upon this system, and that system being found all over the brain has really powerful effects.

26:44 

OK. So do you think there are, like, any other factors that, like, play into how high someone gets from the weed they use?

26:51 

Certainly the expectation we know that set and setting are really, I mean they've known this since, since the 60s and the early study that, that kind of the context that people are using, it can impact the way they, you know, they experience it. The route of administration, believe it or not, has a huge impact over the subjective experience. For instance, two common forms of consumption of cannabis are through smoking or vaping, which is the inhalation method.

So you're getting it. You bring it into your lungs, it gets brought into your circulatory system, makes its way up into the brain, and can activate those CB1 receptors to make you feel stoned and have the other types of effects it has.

The alternative route that is most common is the oral consumption method eating edibles, right, or, or drinking. Now, now there are a lot of infused beverages. What's different about that mechanism is instead of going straight into the circulatory system and making its way to the brain, it first passes through the liver.

So it gets into the GI system, passes through the liver. And the liver, not just for cannabis, but for all things, it has a really important role in metabolism. It breaks down toxins, medicines, chemicals that we expose ourselves to. And so some of that THC that's consumed in a brownie or a cookie gets broken down into one of its metabolites on its way into the bloodstream. And one of those metabolites is something known as 11 hydroxy THC. It looks actually very similarly chemically to THC itself, and I recognize this is a terrible chemical name, but 11 hydroxy THC is important because it's actually a stronger activator of the CB1 receptors than THC itself. So when people have edibles, they may have less THC in their bloodstream right after eating the edible. But they have more of the 11 hydroxy THC, which again is kind of like a, it's like a souped-up version of THC. So this is why a lot of people might feel very more stoned than they otherwise would be. They might feel even more tired or sedated, which is an outcome of too much THC consumption when they eat edibles versus smoking. So just the route of administration matters. There are other factors, too, such as hormone levels, which may differ between male and female. Different periods of the menstrual cycle. All of these things can influence how high somebody gets because of the interaction between, like estrogen, for instance. And this endocannabinoid system. So there's, there's with cannabis, there's not a very clear consumption dose response relationship because it differs as a function of administration method. Biological sex, estrogen level, all of these things can influence how high you're going to get.

29:49 

Wow, that is so cool. So what I'm hearing is, like, first of all, your hormones, your physical body, plays a big role into how you're, you're gonna respond, your head space going into it is going to determine it, and your environment, how comfortable you feel and the space you're in, the people you're around. That's, like, a lot of different things play into how high you're going to feel and how that experience is going to be for you.

30:11 

Totally. And I appreciate you summarizing that better than I was able.

30:15 

You are the expert. You have all the information. So I'm just taking it in. OK. So the next question I wanted to ask is, what's the behavioral neuroscience behind taking a T break? How does that work in your brain, when you take a T break.

30:31 

Sure. So the T break just to define that for folks is just taking a break from using cannabis and the justification for doing so is to return to the brain, and specifically its endocannabinoid system, kind of back to a baseline that somebody was at prior to using cannabis on a regular basis. The reason for doing this is because as we use cannabis regularly, the THC acting upon those CB1 receptors to make people feel stoned actually leads to a change in the number of those receptors that are available.

This underlies a phenomenon known as tolerance, which is the need to take an increasing amount of the drug in order to get the wanted effect. And yeah, you might say, well, who cares? I'm just going to take more cannabis. Well, remember that this cannabinoid system in the brain is not just there to detect cannabis. It has really important functions beyond cannabis, right. Beyond making us stoned. It does everything from pain regulation to emotion, mood states, cognitive performance, learning, and memory. So we want that system to be working well. So when we use THC on a regular basis, it's activating those CB1 receptors. The brain cells have this machinery, this, this like detection system that that's basically like, hey, these receptors are too activated. We’ve got to do something about this, this is not normal. So not to get too chemical about this, but essentially what ends up happening is the, the, the machinery in the neurons or in the, in our brain cells tag the receptors with a phosphate group. And what that, that does to, it signals to the brain cell that, oh, we got to get rid of these. That phosphate groups there, let's, let's internalize them, let's pull them away. So there, now there's less or fewer of those CB1 receptors for THC to act upon or the bodies endogenous cannabinoids to act upon.

So now we're starting to see the effect of using regular cannabis on decreasing the number of these very important cannabinoid receptors. The benefit of the T break, though, is that fortunately for us, the body recovers and it goes kind of back to normal after a period of time, and they've actually done studies where you can actually look at somebody's brain using a neuroimaging scan, where you can see where and how many of these CB1 receptors there are and you can actually trace over time with repeated use the fact that people will lose the number of those CB1 receptors with, with regular use of cannabis. However, during a period of abstinence of about four weeks, it returns back to normal or normal-ish. So, to me, that's a good justification for taking a, a T break, that if the use you're experiencing is no longer helping you achieve what you want to be achieving, whether it's feeling stoned, euphoric, or even treating anxiety, who knows? Whatever you're using it for, those benefits are going to be reduced if you're using regularly, especially with these highly potent products. 

So taking a T break, although it's hard, it is challenging because the brain is responding to the loss of THC. Like hey, I need more of this stuff, and there's cravings and all of these other internal challenges. That's even, even externally with the physiological changes that somebody may experience. But just recognizing that over time the brain will recover to some degree. For some people, it’s entire recovery, depending on use patterns and how frequent and, and how much THC someone's using. But there is recovery, and that period is, you know, several weeks to a month is what people can expect.

34:27 

Wow, that is really amazing. I appreciate you explaining how the T break kind of works in the brain because I feel like it's all, it's been talked about, and I've heard about it, but actually the effects it has on the brain, like, is information I haven't had before. So that's really cool.

34:43

Great.

34:46 

What are some other like harm reduction strategies you recommend in addition to, like, T breaks when you're using cannabis?

34:55 

I think the, the most kind of obvious based on our discussion even so far today has been if you're gonna use, like, start low and go slow. There's, there's no, first of all, there's very little need. I, I cannot think of an example where somebody needs to use a lot of cannabis. I mean really, like, if people, people in the 70s and 80s and 90s loved using cannabis because of the effect that it had. They were achieving that with much lower doses of THC, and so there's no reason to, to have to use way more than what they were using back in those days. 

So starting with lower amounts, if you are faced with a product that is of a higher potency, very critically, think about how much you actually need to consume. Titrate that dose, unlike what a lot of people are doing but think about maybe I don't need to take or eat the entire brownie or smoke this entire joint. You know, just a little bit. You know, when we used to talk about this with the glue, like a little dab will, do you, you know. Like, just you don't need to do too much. Take T breaks. I think that's a good harm reduction strategy is, you know, always reset. And it's not just for cannabis. I mean, it's for like anything we do, it's always good to take a break from that activity because our body is constantly adapting to whatever we're doing to the point that anything we do too frequently and too often will lose its effect. If we think about this from a dopamine standpoint, dopamine is an important brain chemical involved in reward and motivation and goal-directed behaviors. Kind of need that dopamine reset every now and then. T breaks are a great example of that in the context of cannabis, but this is for really any activity we do on a regular basis. Having that reset is important. So I think starting low, going slow as well as, you know, using products that you know what's in them, too. I mean, you know even cannabis is now being found laced with things that folks don't want to use. You know, it's, it's not just fentanyl, it's, it's other things, too, including acid. And somebody may not want to be on an acid trip all day. So just know what you're getting. I think that, that those are all good suggestions if people still choose to use.

37:15 

So, like, be intentional about what you're consuming, be aware of what the potency is, and just, like, take it slow. You can always smoke more.  

37:23 

And think about why you want to use it, too, right? Are you using it for just recreational purposes? I just really wanna get stoned and have a good time with my friends and listen to music? That would lead to a very different product choice than if you're, like, I'm needing this to help me sleep at night or to take the edge off. Like, the anxiety relieving reasons why some people may choose to use cannabis is going to lead to a different choice or should lead to a different choice than if I'm just using this to get stoned. 

Unfortunately, there aren't very good recommendations out there, especially if you go to like, you know, your average budtender. I know there's some training in that, but I don't know how well it's being conveyed to the customer because, like, I know people, my, my wife is a physician in town. We, we have conversations about what people are using to get these, these more medicinal effects. And I would never advise in those choices. So somewhere along the line the, they're getting misinformation. And so thinking deliberately about what to use for a given purpose I think it's also important because all things are not, you know, created equal. If you want to go, you know, move a bunch of rock to, you know, fill your garden, you're not going to use the same vehicle as you would use if you're just, you know, going to go drive into town and pick up groceries, right? You might use it. You might choose to do something different because they're designed for different things.

38:46 

Yeah, I appreciate that point of just, like, reflecting on why you want to use it, because there's so many different reasons why people use cannabis. It's like social. It's like personal, like anxiety management or physical symptoms. And you're right, like the products that are available have, like, very different effects. And so when you are grounded in why you're doing that, then you can do they do it more intentionally. Yeah, that's amazing.

And so I know you do a lot of research on CBD and, like, the effects of that, what direction do you think cannabis research and the cannabis industry is, like, heading in?

39:23 

It's a great question. I actually think they're, they're kind of almost heading in opposite directions here. I think you have the cannabis industry that is still based on, you know, giving products or creating products that are of high potency, making it easier to use than ever. You know everything from vape pens to infused beverages. So that, that just seems to keep escalating. I mean, even since I arrived here at Western, like, these products are changing and, you know, you can get higher than ever. And I, I don't, I don't see that stopping necessarily. I think it would be in the industry's best interest to slow down so that people have better experiences. You want to keep using the product.

40:06

So, like, there's commercial interests and the research being done.

40:09 

Yeah, the research on the other hand, and this is something that my group is doing, but others are very interested in is how do we improve, how do we improve the user experience, whether it's, again, because they want a, a good euphoric experience to everything, from helping to relieve symptoms of epilepsy, anxiety, depression. We're studying early life trauma in the lab. I mean, all of these really impactful things, like, how can we harness the potential of this plant, which produces hundreds of chemicals, many of which act upon systems in our brain and body that are not current targets of the currently available medications. So, to me, that represents a great opportunity.

We know this to be the case, you know, with a variety of conditions, that about 20 to 30% of the people who suffer from depression, anxiety, epilepsy, other conditions do not respond to the medications that are currently available through prescription or over the counter, so how do we help those people? How do we help the people who are using prescriptions but are having adverse effects? Again, the cannabinoids represent this novel approach and that's what's motivated my research and my lab, as well as many others in the field. And I think we are learning about these entourage effects, to come back to the term that we used earlier in the podcast. We are learning about how the, you can mix and match different elements, again, produced by the plant in ways that make it more reliable as a medicine, more effective as a medicine, or safer as a medicine.

41:50 

Wow. So there's two different sides of it. One side is with commercial industry wanting to make more products, better products. So that is going to get people high. And then the other side of it is researchers who are really trying to find ways to utilize these products and these drugs so that it actually helps people and does the effects that it want, they want it to happen. Wow, that is amazing. Is there anything like else that you feel like is really important to touch on or speak on about cannabis or your research or any of your knowledge?

42:23

I just feel like we are still, even though this plant has been around for thousands of years and there's records of, of using this plant for many, many millennia across the world, we're still very much at our infancy in understanding it. And what makes it even more difficult are, are these shifting goal posts based on what's commercially available out there and how that's changing. So I think it's an exciting time, but we also have to recognize that when people talk about the, the safety of this, the reliability of the, the, the drug, we just have to remember that it, it may change over, over periods of time and we just have to be aware of that. I'm really optimistic about the directions that it's going.

My research lab was fortunate to receive a grant from the National Institutes of Health to study the therapeutic benefits of cannabis, specifically CBD, but that also it's kind of a big deal. I mean, not because I got the grant, but because the, the federal government acknowledged that there is a medicinal potential of this plant, which by their definition as a schedule 1 drug, has no medicinal benefit. So I do feel like the tides are turning towards, even though many states have legalized cannabis for medicinal purposes, the government recognition, I think, is a really important step. 

43:52 

That's a huge turning point. Definitely. The more information that we get, the different directions that we get to go for how we look into it and learn.

44:00 

Totally. And I, I, I am optimistic that it will help a lot of people who have been struggling to find the right medicines for them at this time.

44:10 

Yeah. And it's really cool that, like, we're getting more funding to look into that and research more about cannabis and THC and CBD. And I feel like one of the best things that we can do is just to continue having conversations about it. Because you're right, it's, it's always going to be changing, the information we know, with the more research that we have and the more that we talk about it and converse, the better and more informed we're going to be when we utilize it or we don't.

44:35

Absolutely. That's a great point. Yeah. More conversations. I mean, I wish we had more conversations across the board for a variety of different issues we face in society, but this, this is one of them too.

44:45

Absolutely. We're doing our bit, yeah.

44:47

Excellent.

44:48

Well, I think that wraps up our questions. Thank you again so, so, much for coming on and sharing your expertise. I feel like I've learned a lot and I'm really excited for other people to hear about this because I think it's really important.

45:00

Well, thank you for having me on today.

45:03

So it was really great to hear from Dr. Kaplan on some of his research and how cannabis use and production has changed over time and also the research going into how it can be optimized, promote safety, and help people, especially those with particular conditions like epilepsy.

45:16

Yeah. And Dr. Kaplan also talked about the importance of taking T breaks to reset the cannabis receptors in the brain and the Counseling and Wellness Center has some resources for this. We have T break guides online and in wellness worksheets. And the T break guides can give you tips on how to have a successful T break because it can be hard, for sure.

45:36

Yeah, and something that came up a lot in our conversations and preparing for this episode and something we kind of wanted to talk a little bit further. What was the topic of mixing weed and alcohol? So this is something that we found really relevant as college students as getting cross is a pretty common way to use cannabis and something people have a lot of different opinions on and experiences with.

45:57

Yeah, definitely. And before we dive into the discussion, for those who don't know, being cross just means using weed and alcohol together and then feeling the effects from both of these substances simultaneously. And it can bring up some concerns around safety, such as greening out or feeling sick. And so it's important to keep in mind of the timing and the amount of each substance consumed, and then the order of usage that can all affect the experience of using both of, both of these together.

And research from the Addiction Center suggests that drinking before consuming cannabis can in fact increase the absorption of THC in your bloodstream. And this can in turn intensify the effects.

46:42 

Hmm. Yeah, and this can sometimes increase some of the feelings of euphoria for some people, which is why a lot partake in both substances together. However, it can also increase feelings of nausea, disorientation, and other uncomfortable experiences. These feelings can be even more intensified by consuming weed through edibles, specifically.

47:00

Yeah, it's good to know the concentration. Yeah. And yeah, good to know. There's good and bad. There can be good and bad sides. Yeah, either. But also when we were doing this research, we noticed that we were finding most of the information we were finding was about drinking alcohol before using cannabis, and there wasn't really a lot of research about like using cannabis before drinking, which we weren't really sure why. Maybe people don't do that as much or it's just not as studied or harder to study but that doesn't mean it's less important, so yeah, definitely. But some things that we did find suggested that using cannabis before drinking can slow down the absorption of alcohol in your bloodstream, which can delay the effects and maybe lead people to drink more, which could lead to increased risk factors like maybe blacking out or getting alcohol poisoning. So just being mindful of that. 

47:59

Yeah, it's super important to know because there really is no conclusive evidence on how the order of consuming weed and alcohol affects the experience of getting crossed. And many people have, like, very different experiences, but one common misconception about using both substances is that consuming weed after getting drunk can sober you up, which research shows is really not true. Sobering up from alcohol just takes time as your body metabolizes the alcohol and the same precautions should be taken when you feel intoxicated, like not driving, regardless of whether you consume weed or any other substances, or any other substance, for that matter, with alcohol.

48:34 

So with everything we've talked about today in our little conversation, there can obviously be some negative effects to mixing these substances and avoiding doing or mixing them entirely would obviously be the most direct way to avoid negative effects. But we also just wanted to offer a few harm reduction strategies for those who do choose to use or mix both of these substances of weed and alcohol. And first off, it's important to know how both weed and alcohol affect you personally on their own before mixing them together and this can really help to just know each individually. And then starting low and going slow is a great way to practice this and it can also help to minimize the side effects and intensity of the intoxication. And just being aware of how much you're consuming like reading the alcohol content and THC label, labels, which can sometimes be confusing, so also maybe talking to the person you're getting it from to, like, make sure you know how strong it is and that you just understand what the information provided on these labels means.

49:48

Being well informed is essential, definitely, and also the environment that you are in when you are consuming both substances is also important. Checking in with yourself and with someone you can trust can also make sure you're feeling alright and to know when you might need a break, need some water, some fresh air, or anything else that feels supportive and safe.

50:06 

Yeah, environment is definitely a big, a big one.

50:09

Absolutely.

50:11

So we're nearing the end of our episode today, but before we wrap up, we wanted to share about a great resource on campus, which is the health supplies packages. And through this service any Western Washington University student can order health supplies for free through the mail. Some substance harm reduction supplies that are available include single use breathalyzers, naloxone, fentanyl test strips, and other supplies like condoms, dental dams, and period products are also available through this. NOTE: Health supplies packages are fulfilled during the academic year as supplies are available, and we do not fulfill orders over the summer.

50:41

Yeah, we’ve got plenty of resources for you all, and the link for the order form is on the Counseling and Wellness Center’s website, which you can also find by googling “free health supplies at WWU.” The link will also be in our episode description. And yeah, for any RAs out there, you can also place bulk orders for your residents. We will do our best to fill them as our supplies allow.

00:51:02

Well, we've made it to the end of our episode today. Yay. Thank you so much to everyone for listening. And thank you so much to Dr. Kaplan for your time and expertise. We really liked interviewing you and all the things you had to say. And we also wanted to thank Gwen, who is our substance abuse and prevention specialist here at Western for giving us a lot of great info and insight for this episode. And also thank you to all of our student interviewees for bringing your insight and perspectives to this important conversation.

00:51:34 

Yay. Yeah. Thank you all. And yeah, we also want to give a big thank you to our other members of our team, Marisa, Charlie, and Fiona for helping us put together this episode and as well as a big shout out to our amazing mentor, Maggie, who helps make this project possible.

So to stay connected, you can follow our Instagram @bewellwwu for more resources, event, information, and to interact with this podcast. Additionally, if you have any questions you want answered related to emotional, mental, sexual, or relational health in our next episode, feel free to fill out our anonymous Doodle poll, which is linked in our Instagram. We hope to see you out and about when we conduct your interviews next time on campus and to hear all your great insights. In the meantime, be sure to check out our other episodes. And with that, thank you for listening!

52:19

In the trees and in the forest.
And all that’s come before us.
We feel to find the wisdom in our bones, releasing judgement and old stories, remembering our glory.
We rest in love and walk each other home.
We're not alone. 
It’s Campus Conversations
It's Campus Conversations
It's Campus Conversations
It's Campus Conversations

Resources:

WWU Counseling and Wellness Center

WWU Substance Abuse Prevention Program

Free Health Supplies for WWU Students

Dr. Josh Kaplan’s Research Lab at WWU

@bewellwwu on Instagram