Lasting Impact
Welcome to "Lasting Impact," the podcast that dives deep into the stories and insights of extraordinary individuals who are leaving an indelible mark on the world. Here, we'll explore the transformative power of their actions and innovations in the realms of business, ministry, and community. Our guests are the change-makers, the visionaries, and the unsung heroes whose unwavering dedication and passion have not only made an impact but a lasting one. Prepare to be inspired, informed, and empowered as we explore the stories behind the lasting impact these remarkable individuals are creating.
Lasting Impact
What happens when your dream job disappears overnight?
Former NASA Chief of Staff Gabe Sherman opens up about the day his title vanished—and how it forced him to rethink everything. From high-level meetings at NASA to standing unemployed in his kitchen on Inauguration Day, Gabe shares a raw, honest journey about identity, purpose, and what really matters.
This episode is for anyone who's ever asked: Who am I if I’m not what I do?
So I'll never forget walking into NASA the first day. I opened up the door and she stops and looks at me. She says I don't need you to hold that door for me, I can open that door myself. Thank you very much. And she just.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Lasting Impact Podcast. I'm your host, mark Marquand. Join me as I sit down with remarkable individuals making a meaningful difference in business and ministry. We'll explore their stories, challenges and successes, all with the goal of encouraging you to go out and make a lasting impact. If you love what you hear, don't forget to rate, review and share. Welcome to Lasting Impact, gabe Sherman. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Glad to be here.
Speaker 2:Honored to have you, bro. For those listening that may not know, you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 1:Quick backstory right Married beautiful wife Amanda, two beautiful girls, adelie and Gabby. Adelie is in at a let's see. She just finished her freshman year at Oklahoma State.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And Gabby will be an incoming senior at Verdigris High School. So love that, love church. You know me. I work in the space industry yeah, is that enough, or do you want more?
Speaker 2:that's great man, that's great. Well, let's that. That's. This is.
Speaker 2:What's going to be tough today is there is so much more right there's so much more quick notes I made were nasa leader, space industry expert and powerful voice in men's ministry. Um, well, I kind of like just telling viewers how we met. I think that's just an easy step for me. Uh, we have mutual, we would have mutual pals and really how we got connected was through our mutual friend, johnny Hampton.
Speaker 2:Johnny and I started a men's breakfast over 10 years ago and years ago he started talking to me about you that one day he wanted you know, like we want Gabe Sherman to be a speaker at our breakfast at some point. And, gosh, I think it was a couple of years ago, a few years ago that we had you speak at our brotherhood breakfast for the first time. We've had you. We had you here recently, in the last November, but we've had you a couple of times now. Hey man, you just knocked our socks off with your, your first one.
Speaker 2:Uh, we made a shirt for it and everything. It's like a space design, sort of space design and and, um, we had identity on there and it was really cool. You told your a little bit of your backstory and the NASA story and so we know each other through ministry and gotten to know each other a little bit more, that just both loving men's ministry have a passion for brotherhood and and starting to have a vision of where that could go. Um, so yeah, man, I'm glad you're here and just want to kick off with how did you get to NASA?
Speaker 1:I asked myself that question. Yeah, no. So I grew up in Vertigris, oklahoma, right, and in Vertigris you aren't thinking someday NASA Like that's just not really what's on the radar there. But what's actually pretty crazy is I have another buddy from Vertigris who also has worked at NASA and is still active in the space industry. So maybe we're a space powerhouse out there, um, but no man, it was a really interesting path, right, a very unconventional path.
Speaker 1:Um went to college to play baseball, got out of college, went into sales and marketing, stumbled into this gentleman over at the Tulsa air and space museum named Jim Bridenstine, and when he and I got to know each other he said, man, I need a marketing director. And so he hired me to come to work there and through about the year together we were working there. He kind of felt this call on his life, like I need to run for Congress, and he asked me like, hey, is that something that you might be able to help with? I said I know nothing about it, but sure, um, I know you and I think you do great, um, so let's go do that. So we did and, uh, with the help of a lot of folks, um, we won a congressional race, a lot of people didn't think we'd ever win, um, and so I still remember the night that we won, getting phone calls from TV stations on on both coasts Cause it was such an upset and they're like man, how much money did you guys spend on TV? What was your strategy? How did you do this? And I'm like guys, we hardly had any money, we just worked our tails off and they just couldn't understand how it happened. Of course we're men of faith, so we understand. Look, if it's God's purpose and plan and timing, it's going to work. And that's clearly what happened.
Speaker 1:So we did the congressional thing for about five years and in that fifth year President Trump wins, comes into office. Jim had kind of carved out a niche in space and there was this opening for the NASA administrator. So Jim got nominated to become the NASA administrator. I went up to NASA as the deputy chief of staff through the presidential personnel office and then moved into the chief of staff role while I was there. So it was very unconventional. I'm not an engineer, not a scientist, you know, not one of those those guys that are that are sitting back there thinking up all the brilliant and difficult ways solving the world's most difficult problems, um, you know, from a space perspective, um, but it was, uh, it's been been quite a journey man.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. So I want to back up a little bit too, just to give your faith background. Um, because you were you go into NASA as a born again Christian, right A man of faith. Um, so, yeah, I guess I guess establish that for us. I don't know we have to go all the way back. I think I just wanted to say that, like your, when you were at their Brett, I just re-listened to the podcast, your first one. I listened to both of them and your dad was in. Um, your dad was in the audience on that first one and I love how you honored him, like he was there and you just said such great things about him. Um, cause you were talking about your heavenly father, given your identity and, and your, your dad played that role as well. Um, I want to roll back a little bit. And were your parents Christians and so it was pretty natural to you, or did you come to faith, to, to, to meeting Jesus, like in high school or something?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's man. Great, great questions. So I think and I think this is kind of a similar story to to probably some of the folks listening Like I had a mom and my dad knows this, we've had these conversations. I had a mom that was probably more into the faith side of things than my dad at the time growing up, and there was this period of time where I remember I'm going to church and mom getting me and Zach and Andrew, my two brothers, together, dragging us out of the house and we're like Mom, why are we going to church again? And I watched my dad's faith progress over time as my mom started to really kind of lean in. I watched my dad come alongside and then not only come alongside but actually step out in front and start to lead and make faith a priority in our household. And so as that started to happen, we all started to take notice of the building on the foundation my mom had kind of built for us. We kind of took that to the next level.
Speaker 1:And so it was at an early age, about 12 years old, whenever I came to know Christ. But it wasn't like an overnight thing where now suddenly I was going to be this incredible man of God. It was trials and tribulation and growth, and a lot of people that would have hung out with me in high school would have probably not known much different about me and any other. You know somebody else that does not go to church. I mean, I had you know. There's just some tough times, right.
Speaker 1:You grow up and you learn, yeah, and then my faith really took a, took kind of came to the forefront, um, as I moved through college. And when I moved through college and Amanda and I decided, you know, we really want to start doing life differently. We started to prioritize it together as a couple, before we were even married, and that fundamentally shaped our relationship and prepared us, I think, to enter into marriage. And so my faith, um has grown, you know, from this. Oh man, we got to kind of go to now. That's what I want to do, like, I want to focus on how do I, how do I help more men enter into purpose and relationship through the lens of Jesus Christ and then watch that ripple effect as it as it just takes over families and takes communities, love being a catalyst for that type of growth and and so, yeah, so that's what's been. It's kind of it's been a unique faith journey, but um yeah, a fun one too.
Speaker 2:Well, you've been developed. I can, I can. That's a great story of just you know you, you were being fathered, you know, by your heavenly father, and that stuff. You're as a child, you just get developed. Okay, so now let's go into going out to NASA as a Christian. Was it culture shock out there? Was it completely?
Speaker 1:different, right? So I'll never forget walking into NASA the first day, right, the very first day. Which, again, like what am I bringing to this agency? Right, I know me. And so I walk up to the front door and I see this lady who's out in front of me, maybe five or six steps coming from the other direction.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm from Oklahoma, so what am I going to do?
Speaker 1:I'm going to open the door, I'm going to let her go right in before me and then I'm going to follow in behind. And no kidding, this is a first day I open up the door and she stops and looks at me. She says I don't need you to hold that door for me. You very much. And she just took the door and walked in and at that moment I realized I am not in Oklahoma, this is not Verdigris, this is not Tulsa, this is not the Midwest. I'm in a different place.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, there was some culture shock just from being transplanted in DC pretty quick. But, yeah, as a Christian inside of that building. That's a science-driven organization and it's not to say that NASA doesn't do really great things. They have fundamentally developed technologies that have changed humanity and so I love that agency. But I was probably in the minority right coming into that organization and it was actually a tremendous opportunity, because I grew up in Oklahoma where if you're a Christian, you're in the majority most rooms that you're in, and so now here I am coming into an opportunity where now I'm in the minority in the building.
Speaker 1:I'm also a part of the Trump administration Trump 1.0. And, if you remember, that was a pretty contentious election for Trump to win the first time around, and there was a big heavy stigma around Trump appointees about who these people really were, and so we came in with kind of the deck stacked against us, and so, again, it was such a tremendous opportunity to win hearts and minds, to just live in a way that was different, maybe, than what the expectation was, and so faith played a pivotal role in just trying to come in and build relationships and love on people right. That was really the goal when it got there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could see you being well like. You're really good at that. You're good at loving on people. You're good at and not even, I don't think on purpose owning a room, but I think you're very intentional, when I've been around you, of showing care, and so I can definitely see you taking that lead, which would be a big deal over there, because I'm sure I mean, most of us are just selfish people and don't want to go out of our way to like that.
Speaker 2:Well, let's dive into and you tell this story. However you want to tell it. I love these points that you hit of this. Well, I don't want to tell your story. I mean it's kind of fresh because I just listened to your podcast but you're on mission out there and you're a driven person and you, you guys, you know I can just picture you out there. You're on mission, you're working hard, you're working the long hours. There's some thrill to all of this. This is I mean, there's some fun stuff here.
Speaker 2:Man, you're on top of the world. You're on top of the world. You're, you're in the biggest meetings in the world, like I know we can start dropping some names and you're like I've been right across the table from him, right, and you're, I picture you. You're, you're flying all over the place. You're an, you're an important guy in important meetings. And, um, you, how you tell your story, is you really build that up? Cause it's true, that's one half of it. And you also tell your story of not forgetting the ladies in your life, of Amanda and your daughters. You've moved them across the country.
Speaker 1:So if you're just a bachelor, they're in unfamiliar territory.
Speaker 2:It's like it's okay for you to be in this unfamiliar territory because there's you and there's jim and this is your beyond nine to five. But this is like your mission, man, like this is your call and um. You like rolling up your sleeves and you like putting the work in um it, but you have this over here which is obviously major part of your life, should be the most important part of your life that there's this kind of this behind the scenes suffering. You described a little bit of of your family, of being scared, being a little lost. This is new territory. The girls are itty bitty, they're getting ready to go to new schools and walk us through a little bit of that season of what, what you're feeling, and describe some of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, man. There was a heaviness to a lot of that right that you just described, and so you know, remember, we're just lifelong Oklahomans for the most part. I moved down here when I was five I mean, this is all my girls ever knew, of course when they were born and we get this opportunity, and so now we're moving to Northern Virginia where we know nobody opportunity. And so now it's we're moving to Northern Virginia where we know nobody, and it happened really quick and I had told Amanda kind of throughout this whole process, that this process was going to be slow until it was fast and then it was going to be really fast. That's exactly what happened. It took almost 14 months for Jim to get actually confirmed and then it took less than 60 days for our entire family to be in Northern Virginia. Wow. So it was super slow, it felt slow and then it was super fast. But, like you said, I felt like this was the next logical step in my career.
Speaker 1:I'm growing, I'm progressing, I've got this title at the greatest space agency humankind has ever known. We're doing things on a daily basis that just break your mind. When you're building telescopes that can actually look basically back towards cosmic dawn, like I didn't even know what that meant at the time, all right. But you're looking at the amazing scientific discoveries that we were a part of. We were setting the stage for a lunar return for the United States to put people back on the surface of the moon, which has happened six times. It's not debatable, it's happened. Okay, we'll go to the mat on that one, so don't doubt that. But yeah, I mean, we're building this program to send the next man and the first woman to the moon. We're engaged in international conversations where NASA is the critical tool of diplomacy for the United States that it needs to be. When you are, it's amazing how things terrestrially here on Earth can be breaking down between countries. But when we're working in space together, things can happen up there that you wouldn't expect to happen here, and it bridges the gap between what's happening on the ground and what's happening in space. And so NASA is used in these really unique ways in big situations, to bring people in across the world, maybe even some of our adversaries across the world.
Speaker 1:So this was my life, right, this is what I'm in the middle of. And I'm traveling across the country, going to these centers, talking to the workforce, looking at the programs, and, man, I'm just owning this right. And then my wife and my daughters are like, hey, you moved us up here. We have no community, we don't even know, we know nobody. We don't really have a church home. I can't call your folks to come over and watch the girls, like there's just, it was just nothing for them, right, it was all new. And so there was this period of time where I had to shift back to understanding what my first ministry was and still is. Right is our families, right.
Speaker 1:And so that was one of those moments where I remember exactly where I was Johnson Space Center when I got a call from my wife where she was having some health concerns and was breaking down.
Speaker 1:And here I am halfway across the country and she's got nobody to turn to and she's having a really difficult time. And it just kind of hit me like, oh man, I think I've been neglecting some things on the home front, and so we kind of grew through that and so it started to become more of a mission we did together which was super important for all of us. I started to take them to launches when I could and we started to bring the girls up to take your kids to work day. Like take your kids to work day at NASA I was like the coolest dad for a while when you take your 10 and 12 year old up to NASA and so we started to kind of move all of move that direction where we've got more family engagement. But you know, when you're a presidential appointee, when the administration changes, your job status changes right.
Speaker 1:Like people don't hold over for the most part in that capacity from one administration to the next, and so so Trump loses in November and we see the end date right. The end date for us is going to be January 20th 2021.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so we know that this is. Hold on for a second. Yeah, go ahead. I know where you're about to go and I love it and I know it's going to spring us in some really good stuff, but I want to pump the brakes because I you really so. Speak to the man right now who is on a great mission, because it's not like you were in sin man, you know, it's not like you were doing wrong things. Right, this is a gift from God. Yeah, I believe you know I mean to put you and Jim there. That is, that's a call man and you are answering the call, you are on assignment and you're doing great things. So I also don't want to paint this as like I want.
Speaker 2:I want the person male or female, but you know, you and I were in men's ministry. I don't want men to feel bad for being on mission, for doing, for, for, for bringing home the bacon and providing for their family and working hard what's the word to them? And I think you started telling her that you started shifting to including and thinking of them. So, before we move on to what I know you're about to go on to, I want, I want to pump the brakes and one make sure, like I want, to praise the man for taking that on that call and conquering something being on mission, doing the right things. You just can't forget about this over here, and it's easy to, it's easy to. But so, minister, to us right there, on the man listening for like such an important topic.
Speaker 1:So I think, um, I had lunch with a guy today. His name's Luke Owens, Great guy um owns, uh, the hub gym in broken arrow, Cool, and he and I had some of this conversation where he had he had been so driven um and in building and in growing that he was. He was with his kids, but he wasn't seeing his kids. You can get that way where you are so focused on the outward thing that you're missing those things that are right in front of you. I think, as men, we're put together to go and do, we're put together to drive, and God has blessed us each with very unique capabilities, talents and just an intuitive purpose that we feel like we've got to walk out, and sometimes we find a lot of that in our careers, and so we ended up pursuing it full tilt, Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and I think that that's I think that's great Like if, if I look at um what God has given me and I'm not pursuing things in a way that are in alignment with the gifts and talents he's blessed me with and pursuing it with um my full ability, then I'm selling him short based on what he's blessed me with Right.
Speaker 2:And it put me to do.
Speaker 1:I never want to do that, Um. Where we get in trouble is whenever that becomes the center. Focused pursuit like that becomes the thing, um, and whenever we go all in and we believe that we're serving our family best by pursuing this as hard as we can and yet we're missing out on relationship because we aren't making dedicated time and we aren't focused there and we aren't spending the right time at home and we aren't doing things with them to include them in the process or just show them that they're loved and cared for and seen. That's where we get off track.
Speaker 1:It's not that drive is bad. It's not that we shouldn't be very intentional and feel a weight to go and do and produce and drive things forward that God has put in front of us. It's whenever that becomes the sole pursuit that we completely, we lose the game. We lose the bigger game because we've lost sight of Christ first and our family second, and it just puts us in a really difficult spot. And so I think that to me was so, so apparent, and maybe in ways that I hadn't. I'm sure, if you ask my wife, there were other times in my career where that had been a challenge for me.
Speaker 1:Maybe I wasn't as aware of it but, at this moment, but I think that was because there was so much support around my family. In this moment. It was a different season and my family needed me in different ways, and I had to learn in that process how to be a different type of producer while also taking care of you know the mission field at home taking care of my wife, taking care of my girls, um, and so I would just encourage guys that are fighting that it's a healthy tension.
Speaker 2:Just tell you that way.
Speaker 1:It's a healthy tension. Um, if you feel driven um and you also feel a heavy responsibility to take care of your family, that means you're doing it right. Like that tension there is a good thing, and so I think it's just making sure that the balance of that doesn't swing too far, one way for too long.
Speaker 1:I had one mentor talk to me early in my career and I wasn't whining, but I was basically saying hey, man, I'm working like crazy right now and things are difficult at home because of it, and his advice to me was not that well, you know, work is what matters and so just neglect your family. His advice to me was Gabe, there are going to be seasons of this where you feel out of balance, um, and you're, you're over here chasing this thing that God has put in front of you, and that season, um, it will come to. It should be just that. It should be a season.
Speaker 1:And your family, your wife, who, she, loves you and wants you to succeed, um, she's going to be okay in seasons of busyness, but that season should not become years worth of pursuit where you've, you are out of balance on the home front, um. And so he tried to kind of dispel that, that myth that there's a work-life balance. It's not really a work-life balance we're in pursuit of. It's more of a what is your purpose and what are you really chasing? And whenever you identify that, then you can move back and start to find the right type of balance in your life. And it's not just work-life right, it's every aspect.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, so that was a really important lesson for me. I think that's a really good word, gabe, of the seasons Like it's. I mean, first of all, god always talks about seed time and harvest, and if you know anything about farming, my dad worked for a farmer and like we didn't see him in certain seasons, wintertime, he just worked in the shop and he wasn't working crops, but that I mean those summer times. Those summer times, um, they, they, you know there's headlights on combines for a reason. I mean they're working through the night and they're everybody's centers around them brings food out to them, and that doesn't last forever. But, like man, they have to hustle right there, right there, they have to put everything they got into those moments. So, um, um, and just to add to that, I've heard successful people talk about getting over a hump.
Speaker 2:And when you're not pushing, sometimes you don't get over a hump. Once over that hump, things get a little bit easier. Now you're starting to pedal a little bit easier and you're not grinding as hard, and I think God calls us sometimes to push like that and if we get, and if we don't, don't go all in for a small season, we could miss some stuff, and so thanks for letting us stop and backtrack that Cause I think it's good rhythm to your story, but I also don't want the men out there that are busting it hard to feel like, oh, so I shouldn't be doing this. So I love how you explained it. Now take us to. You knew there would be an end date End date was going to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. So I and man, I'm so glad you slowed us down there, cause that's the last thing you want anybody to hear right now. That's grinding, that's trying to do everything they can to make something happen to hear that that's bad. I think that that's a gift. So I watch some people work and I'm like man.
Speaker 2:That's a gift that they can push that hard right and you weren't pushing it that way. It's just something in me wanted to be like. You know this was a blessing that you were there.
Speaker 2:And I guess I and the enemy. He is a trickster, he's a distraction type of person. This is where someone who's following God can get really twisted. It's just one little tweak that you just bought into a trick, that you just bought into a small trap that ends up being big Like yo, I just landed this major thing. I'm going to give it all I got. Yeah, and that's of god. But when you're which dave jewett talks about all the time, when you're really abiding with god, though he's going, he's going to not let, let you let your number one responsibility fall to the wayside. That's, that's the enemy. Yeah, like he wants to destroy your closest relationships and disguise it with like but you're killing it over here, man, right, you're bringing it in, right, she should love you even more, even more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you see how hard I'm working, that's right. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't go well.
Speaker 2:If that's your opening line, maybe that's the most important part of this podcast is.
Speaker 1:you're opening line to your wife is don't you see how hard I'm working? It probably doesn't. That's. That's not a good one. I'm in an argument, um, but yeah, so there was this period of time where where we were shifting right from from what we were doing at NASA to trying to figure out what was next, and uh, and that was. I don't think I had realized at the time just how wrapped up in the whole NASA effort I'd become.
Speaker 1:And so you know when, when all of that comes to an end, you know no, no, kidding you kind of. Everything kind of gets shut off at noon on January 20th for you, and you've heard me say this. But when, when you're standing in your house and 10 minutes before you were having really important conversations and then now suddenly you're unemployed and nobody's calling you, that that's a humbling moment, right. And I was standing there in my kitchen with my oldest daughter, adelie, and I just had this moment of where I was kind of like I was broken, right, because we had just run so hard for over three years on this particular effort and I was just gone and we were trying to figure out what to do next. And as a man, you're like, I've devoted so much of who I am now to this particular effort and now it's taken away from me.
Speaker 1:Um, and so you're left with those questions Well, what do I do now? And who am I now if I'm not this person? And uh, and, and that that, I think, is a real thing for guys. Where we, we tie so much of who we are, so much of our identity, into what we do, um, that man, it becomes so unhealthy, and it can be. What we don't realize is how quickly that can be taken from you. And if what you, what you are finding identity in, can be taken away from you in a moment, um, and that is a that is a very scary and very instable, unstable position to live in. Um, and so I I I learned that the hard way where, okay, this job and title and all of those things are taken from you, and now you're left trying to figure it out. And so it kind of sent me down this path where I was trying to figure out what is my identity, where does that rest and how do I solve that problem? And so that was a heavy part of the post-NASA journey.
Speaker 2:And then you asked your daughter am I still cool?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I asked her. Yeah, that's one of those humbling moments where you look at your daughter, you're asking your daughter to give you some sort of approval, like, hey man, am I still a cool dad even though I don't work at NASA?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And she's like well, you never were cool, yeah, she's like, yeah, you're okay.
Speaker 2:You're okay, it's a dad, you know, Well, let's. I think that. I think that maybe, yeah, a lot of people deal with that identity or or hitting that right there, but I think a lot of high level that's what I think of of like something like you're, you're just maxing out, like you're all in which is again a good thing to be all in. We see it all the time like an NFL, like the quarterback and turned car dealer owner or whatever. But like they just don't know what to do, they're lost, do?
Speaker 1:yeah they're, they're lost and because they're like from a boy to now. It's really all I know. Yeah, that's all I know.
Speaker 2:I've devoted everything to this and it is completely over. Like it's completely over, there is no. I mean, just think of being in high school when you know it's over. Yep, it's hard, yeah, it's over, yep, it's hard, yeah, it's hard to like man, like not really going to put on, and I'm thinking like football or something, because that's you can always pick up, uh, pick up basketball or whatever.
Speaker 2:But just I remember being a freshman on the sidelines and a just a senior next to me, this really hitting him hard on his last game, and I'm just a kid on the sidelines, not even thinking three years ahead, and I just happened to be next to him and he's just kind of off by himself and he's just staring. He's like this is the last time I'll ever play and I mean, dude, that was forever ago. That was a lifetime ago for me and I think about it from time to time. That's how impactful it was to me to see this young man who was maybe 17, 18 years old and, dude, he looked like a 50 year old. How he was just describing it. You know, it's just like I'll never put on shoulder pads again. I'll never wear this helmet. Like you know, this is the last coming in place and it's done.
Speaker 2:And it's crazy, bro, that's just a boy it is just a boy but it's like how much love and devotion and just just from pee wee to trying to win a state championship. Right, it's your life, man, yeah, and it's about to come to an end and you have a full life ahead of you.
Speaker 2:I didn't even started. Yeah, but like that stuff hits people, hits boys, hits girls and obviously adults, and I think it's really hits those who are like all in on something, devoted, maybe hadn't sprinkled anything else into their lives, so now they're going to try to figure out the game of golf, now they're going to try to pick up something, and man, all along it's like I don't think we have to get to that point. I think God could lead us to a nice when something has to come to an end or when something's shifting. I don't think it's going to be to where, like that never mattered, cause that's not true. It's.
Speaker 2:Where are you placing it on the shelf? Like, where are you placing it? I think this, a lot of this identity stuff, comes from too. It's like like where? Where are you holding that value? In the, in the top shelf, being the best? And like down there at the floor, no one sees that stuff? Like where are you holding certain things at value? That you're holding it? Like I identify with that, yeah, you know, when you're a kid and I deal with my kids of, like it could be the latest phone or it could be the latest thing.
Speaker 1:And you're just like man.
Speaker 2:I'm not enough until I have that thing, and like it's not true. But there is this deep feeling sometimes of like well, that's the thing, yeah, Anyway, I don't want to, I want to, I want to release it to you, but I think it's sometimes it's like where it's holding that value. That's it, it's where are you holding that value? Is where will how you'll handle identity.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think one of the things is, I went through that struggle where my identity was completely tied to what I do or what I did at the time titles I had, responsibilities I had, I went backwards, right.
Speaker 2:As.
Speaker 1:I kind of looked through and tried to figure out. How did I end up here? I went backwards and, if you think about it, from the earliest age, like as young boys, we were asked, and young girls as well what are you?
Speaker 1:going to be when you grow up? And that's an innocent question what are you going to be when you grow up? But it assumes some things. It assumes you're going to grow into something and it's in this professional sense what are you going to be when you grow up? And whenever you say what are you going to be, that is very different than what profession are you going to have? Because whenever you're talking about what are you going to be, that is very different than what profession are you going to have.
Speaker 1:Because, whenever you're talking about what are you going to be. That's inner, that's like what am I going to be? That's deeper than just what job are you going to have? And so I think from an early age we're kind of conditioned that man. That's the question that we need to be answering is what am I going to be when I grow up? And so we start putting a lot, of, a lot of undue pressure and maybe um giving too much credit to things that are going to define us in unhealthy ways.
Speaker 1:So we start finding identity early and things that that kind of wreck us down the road. Um, what I love sports, played sports my whole life. Um, still think I'm an athlete, even though I'm sore when I try and do anything. But I think there are things that I attached. My identity to. Baseball was one of mine, right, and then you move out of high school and my identity was wrapped up in baseball and being the cool guy and all of that stuff. That all goes away whenever I go to college and baseball ends.
Speaker 1:Now I've got to figure out what I'm going to do there, and so it seemed like I was on this path for trying to substitute this what am I going to be? Thing, with all kinds of things I was doing, maybe things that I had done, maybe things I had desired, and so I started to pull all of these pieces together and it's like, man, my identity is being defined by external things that are temporary and will be irrelevant in the grand scope of eternity, and I'm allowing all of those things to define me and to provide me with identity. And some of those things are good things, um, but, man, I've unpacked this with a, with a number of other dudes, and, and some of those things are very unhealthy things. Um, guys have made mistakes, um, they've ended up in prison. They've done, they've done some things, some things that put them in the wrong spot, and so now, in their mind, their identity is attached to the mistake they made.
Speaker 1:That's who they are, and that is not who they are in the eyes of Christ right In the eyes of God, in the eyes of their creator.
Speaker 1:And so, whether it's a thing that you do, whether it's your job or something, whether it's something that you've done, mistakes that you've made or wins that you've had, I've told you before one of my greatest fears is to always be known as the former chief of staff at NASA, like I don't always want to be attached to this thing that I've done. But it also can come over into our desires, and some of those desires are, you know, I want to have more, I want to make more, I want to earn more, I want to be in this part, I want to be known as this person. So we desire to get all of these things. Some of those desires can get really unhealthy, and so we start chasing those things in ways that take over our identity and create so many problems for men. And so I like to back it up and just say wait, if everything is tied, if my identity is tied to anything that is not eternal, then it is temporary and it can be taken from me in a moment. Um, it will. Also, even if it's good or bad, it's an experience that most likely, in the scope of eternity, is not going to matter.
Speaker 1:And so why? Why am I looking for things of this world to define my identity? Why am I not looking to the God that created me and gave me purpose and knew me? Um, as he knit me together in my mother's womb and said, I know exactly who you are. You're my son. First. You're created for a purpose. I have plans for you, I have thoughts about who you're going to be, and I put you on this earth for a very specific purpose. Why am I not searching out for my? Why am I not finding my identity there?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Why am I chasing all of these things over here?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I think that for guys like if, if we truly believe what we say, we believe as Christian men, then our purpose and our identity starts in our relationship with our heavenly father, not anywhere else. And uh, and God models this in such cool ways throughout scripture. But I love what he does for Adam in Genesis 3. Like he, he creates Adam, he gives him purpose, he shows him what work looks like. He, he does all of these other things where he is equipping Adam, but he makes sure he is walking in relationship with Adam. He knows exactly, he wants Adam to know exactly who he is and what his standing and relationship to him is Like. He is God's created son in that moment, right On the earth, and he's the one giving him purpose. He's the one teaching him what to do. And that's where Adam is finding. Everything. Sin falls, comes into the world and completely shifts Adam's focus.
Speaker 1:But in that early, sweet time, a creation like Adam's complete identity was found in God himself and in that relationship and if we live that way and if a job gets taken from you, it doesn't wreck your identity. It might look at you, look at your career and say I have to adjust. But it's no longer a shot at me personally and I'm not looking for purpose and trying to find it in other places. I have purpose.
Speaker 2:It's in my father.
Speaker 1:I have identity. It's found in him. These are all tools and things that he's going to use to achieve his purposes in my life. And when we can shift that perspective, man, it frees us up.
Speaker 2:It just frees us up to see things for what they are.
Speaker 2:I love how you talked about, well, this relationship with the father. Well, you're this relationship with the Father. So if we flip it to being confirmed by your dad or affirmed by him, then so if we're like man I want to be, you know I'm identified with Christ and that's my identity. But when you start talking about Adam and and god, you know his god and his father and how they they walked together and they were. That relationship, your words just now, just like that relationship, like that should encourage us, as fathers 100, to how important the relationship is with our children, because I don't want to just tell my sons, hey, you're identified with Christ, you're identified with Christ, and don't look to this job or the thing or the car like the title man. I want to be the one to like, showing them how they're identified. I want to confirm them and affirm them as their earthly father and I want to be fathered by God so I can father you, that you can learn to be fathered by him too. And us, together we're identified with Christ, together were identified with Christ Like I want to. I want to be the one that they look like.
Speaker 2:I don't want them. I want them to grow up and, like man, my dad did such a good job of of helping me understand who I was and where my validation comes from, that I don't struggle as much with identity because it's going to happen, like it's just a natural. That's that's why we constantly got to talk about it. It's real, you know, because the trick is like we want to be high earners and that comes with winning, and that comes with certain things, and god wants you in those places like it's just the he's. I mean, he's called us to be warriors to battle these things. But I want, I want, we, we want to be dads that are helping our children so much that they're going to struggle with identity less, a lot less, because we've we're just we're validating them, because they're searching for validation from something else.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I think you know your kids, my kids, they there are so many things out there that um are making them feel like they're lacking or they're missing in certain areas. So much comparison that goes on and it's a real challenge for them. And I look at the responsibility you know when you talk about, when you and I, as Christian men, talk about our Heavenly Father like that's easy for us to say right, as Christian men talk about our heavenly father like that's easy for us to say right. But there are a lot of men who have a lot of real challenges with relating to a father right, because of brokenness, because men have we do, we've done terrible things to generations of kids by being poor examples of what a father should be, and you've spent time with a lot of folks like that. I've. I had a dad where he loved me, took care of me, provided for me, showed me what it was to be to be a man and be a Sherman, right.
Speaker 1:And so he helped me understand what what we did and what we stood for as men, and that was really important. But one of the best things he ever did for me was help me understand that, while all of that is great, um, and he wanted me to be the best man of this family that I could be, um, the greatest thing that I could do for him, to honor him as a father, was to be the greatest, um son of God that I could be you know outside of even my, outside of just the Sherman name.
Speaker 1:right, like, what honors my dad most right now is the way I serve my heavenly father, and so he helped me understand, like the, the way that those two things work together. We have a role to play in identity formation for our kids. That's why the trend of parents that you see nowadays that are allowing their kids to figure out their own gender and figure out who they want to be without trying to force anything on them at an early age is so disheartening, disgusting frustrating.
Speaker 1:Right, because we have a role to play that God gave us as parents, and that is to shape and form our children as they are grown. Could you imagine for a second if our Heavenly Father put us here on earth and then just said figure it out Like. How neglectful would that be? That's right and that's not what you see him do at any point in Scripture. Why would we do anything different? So whenever we get these opportunities to shape and speak into and mold the lives of our kids like, that is a sacred responsibility we've been given by our Heavenly Father to steward these kids well that he's blessed us with and to lead them back to him and to be an example of a father that they can relate to and want to draw close to, whenever we start talking about a Heavenly Father that loves them. If we neglect that responsibility, man, we have really missed it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're getting too distracted on stuff that you like I love that. I love how you say and you said this on at our men's breakfast um, your dad taught you what it was to be a Sherman or whatever it was. You said someone, just like that, it's like I love that, I love that. And there's times I'm driving a point home with my sons or with my family and I'm like we do I might say it in Spanish we're Marroquins and we do this, and I'm not saying it in a mean way, but just like hey, we take the lead. Whatever I'm describing, we serve way, but just like hey, we take the lead. Yeah, whatever I'm describing, like hey, we serve Guys, this is what our family does and I love that.
Speaker 2:You said that because I want that driving home, like they're going to grow up and be like man, my dad, we're Marquins, we're going to serve, or we're going to this, or we're going to bless others, or we're going to go help people. No-transcript, you know we're. It's not like just you two best friends in the back like are just figuring out who's chauffeuring you around today. It's like you know, we're texting the other parents throughout the day of like hey, can we take your kids, can we help you here? Like, yeah, we want to be a part of helping them get to church tonight, because that's who we are, bro, like we're, we're, we're here to help. We want to help serve. That's what we're going to do and so, like those moments of training your children, of like we do these things, you could go ask my daughters right now.
Speaker 1:Ask them what does it mean to be a Sherman Right? Because I, because I'm, I took this to like the nth degree, maybe.
Speaker 2:I love this dude?
Speaker 1:Yes, but it was like so, so we, they would tell you it means we're selfless, honest, encouraging, respectful, motivated, affectionate, and we never give up, sherman, like, that's what it means, um. And then, on top of that, like we have, we had our kind of our family verse, right matthew 5, 16 let your light so shine before men, um, that they may see your good works and glorify your father, who's in heaven. And so we had the, the family verse that we always coach back to, and we had that, that acrostic that we always coach back to, and when I say coach me and my wife, like so, so if some, if something happened, um, and we'd say, man, is this, is this, does this align with who we are as Shermans? Like, was this honest, um, are we being encouraging right now or no? Um, are you giving up? Cause we don't give up, like, we never give up.
Speaker 1:It's, it's not what we do, um. And so, like, whenever you, when you put some markers like that down, um, it just gives you something to point back to as parents and say this, this is who we are. But then you can inform that Like how, how did we define that? Well, it's based on on you know, you can see the fruits of the spirit, and that you can see a lot of things throughout scripture that are in those words, either commands that Jesus gave, or fruits of the spirit, or other things, and so so we have a reason that those words matter, um, and they're not just cause they're nice things, it's because we've been called to live this way as believers, and so we can reinforce both sides, you know dude, I love that.
Speaker 2:I'm going to, I am, I'm going to work on that. Um, well, I want I and we don't have to go forever on this Cause I know we're running out of time. We're running out of time. Um, the last men's breakfast we had, it was I mean, it was literally like right before the last election, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you were the perfect speaker speaking on politics. Well, you, well, you're a man in politics, and you're a man in politics, right, and you're a man in ministry. Mm-hmm, you know, and I love how you talked about you're a citizen of two kingdoms or you have dual citizenship.
Speaker 1:You have dual citizenship. You have dual citizenship Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:And it was just such a great um message for the time and well, it'll up forever, but where something like you could have really rallied, you wouldn't have. That's why we trusted you. Uh, um, still, but you know that get 500, get 500 christian men in a room at a church right before this heated election I mean the wrong voice. Could really, you know we could. It could have been somewhere hype, energized that I like. We needed a real, we needed a word.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We needed a word and you talked about dual citizenship. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. We needed a word and you talked about dual citizenship. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny, you know, we uh, being in the in the political game as long as I've been in it, I mean you, you hear these things Um, you know this is I've been called to run for office. Um, or um, man, this is the most important election of our lifetime. Or, if we don't get this fixed, our country's gone. Or if we so like politics is, it becomes one of those things where, um, it just takes people over.
Speaker 1:Like it just takes them over, whether you're running, as soon as you start to get super passionate about it, you find people that are way more passionate than you, right? And they, they have taken um and I and I love our country, right.
Speaker 1:I am so proud to be an American Like it is. It is one of the greatest blessings we will ever have in life is to be born in the United States of America and, at the same time, I watch people and have watched people take, take this whole effort, this political effort, and put it in a position that it doesn't belong in their life. Um, and what I mean by that is a lot of times it comes down to the figures, right, the figures that we're looking at. We will project so many things on people that we want to vote for or that we want to support, that they are unworthy of.
Speaker 1:And we will hold them in regards and put them in places where they are unworthy of, they haven't earned, they don't deserve spots in our life that we give them. They are unworthy of, they haven't earned, they don't deserve spots in our life that we give them. And so I see, you know, men and women alike, in these really heated election seasons, and it's suddenly like if this election goes the wrong way, everything is over, and if it's not this person, man, life is over, everything's done. It's as if God's influence and divine providence and plan for this entire world goes away if this one person gets elected. And I, just as you say it out loud, it becomes just like surely we don't believe that, but we do.
Speaker 1:A lot of times we fall into that trap, and so this idea of dual citizenship.
Speaker 1:man, we are 100% citizens of the United States and we have a responsibility to participate in the process and to shape things and to advance our values and to shape culture in a way that honors God. So we 100% need to be engaged in the process, but our ultimate citizenship lies in heaven, and so, as believers, we have citizenship in both places, both kingdoms, if you will. And then the question is which one is the priority? Well, if you watch things around political elections, it becomes this one over here, this earthly, temporary citizenship that we have, takes priority over the heavenly, eternal citizenship that we've been given through Jesus Christ, and that is where we get into trouble. And so when I look at and when I speak to people about how we both, how do we live as Christians and also participate in politics in a way that is important, because it is I think that's where you have to get level set is your ultimate citizenship and the one that controls the future of this world. That's eternal and that's heavenly.
Speaker 1:That is not what you do on November 6th at the ballot box, that does not determine what happens for the future of our country, like for eternity. God is not surprised at the election results on November 7th. He's not like, oh crap, now I've got to figure out a plan. That is just not the case. So we have a responsibility role to play. Of course, I believe there are certain people to govern that are better than others, but at the end of the day, my hope is in Jesus Christ. My hope is not in a political figure, and so we have to find balance in that dual citizenship and make sure that we're putting the weight in one over the other. And so it's a dichotomy man, it's. It's tough sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Um, but we can't lose sight of those things.
Speaker 2:No, it's so good man and um, I know we could do a separate podcast just on that alone, cause it was so good and powerful and um, anyway, so I'll. I'll wrap up with the last question here. The podcast is lasting impact. What does lasting impact mean to you?
Speaker 1:Um, I, I thought about that. Um, I'm I'm somebody that wants to see generational change. Like I want to do things that have a generational impact, right? So when I, when I hear lasting impact, what I immediately do is I substitute generational, like that's what it looks like to me. So what, what I want to do from a we'll just. We'll just go through the stages here in my family.
Speaker 1:I want to raise my family. I'm going to have a general generational impact with my family. I want to define what I want that generational impact to be and I want to parent and love and coach and support and be the man I need to be to ensure, the right time, I'm having the right type of generational impact with them. With my career, I want to make the right types of decisions where I'm doing things and pursuing things that I believe are going to equip and enable me to have an influence on this world that is going to live beyond me. That is going to be generational and, from a faith perspective, that's the ultimate generational impact, right? There is nothing more important that we can do than to be locked in in that relationship with Jesus Christ and bringing others into fellowship with him. That is lasting, eternal impact, and whenever we get an opportunity to bring somebody into relationship with Christ and watch that fundamentally change their family, their career, the way that they see themselves, you are creating generational impact that is going to live beyond you and that you won't even like recognize the full weight of until you're on the other side of this life.
Speaker 1:That is what we should be about. So I don't want to build a business that's lasting. I want to have an impact on the people that I'm around through my business that creates generational change or impact for them. Like that's what I want to be about. My business is going to fall, like the business is going to go away, but if it's a tool that equips me to go have that kind of impact, you know I'm all in. Like let's, let's go do that, um. So that's what I think of when you say those words that's what I think of, and that's incredible.
Speaker 2:I love it, I love it and I love you, and I'm so glad you came today. Um, this is Gabe Sherman, and he is making a lasting impact. If you liked today's conversation and want to hear more, hit that subscribe button. Don't forget to leave a review and share your thoughts. Your feedback keeps the impact going.