Finding Answers Through Sex, God, and the Brain (w/Dr. Andrew Newberg)

Turns out the answers were here all along, and spoiler alert, you might not like what the real answer is. Luckily, Brendan hashes it all out with the fantastic Dr. Andrew Newberg, neuroscientist and author of How God Changes Your Brain and Sex, God, and the Brain.

The two magnificently toe the line of science and spirituality and discuss:

• If you can transcend your brain wiring using spirituality.
• Practical tips for rewiring your mind.
• Why sex mirrors our relationship with God.
• The surprising conclusion to Dr. Newberg's search for answers.
• And Brendan takes a swing at updating some Bible verses.

RESOURCES
Dr. Andrew Newberg
Sex, God, and the Brain
Dr. Andrew Newberg on the Mel Robbins Podcast
The Hottest Brain of All-Time

Transcript

Welcome to a brand new episode of spiritual asshole. I'm so excited to be joined by Andrew Newberg. He's a neuroscientist and author of how God changes your brain. And as well as. sex, God and the brain. Andrew, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on the program.

I'm so pumped you're here. So do you think the reason why we can't see our brains is because if we did, we would be comparing ourselves to see who has the hottest brain. Well, you know, every once in a while we do get a married couple who comes in and then it's kind of a challenge between, you know, [00:06:00] who's got the better brain.

And we usually tell the woman that she's got the better brain, but That's smart. At least for the, for the guy. Yes. I love that. Yeah. I totally think we would all just be like, no, my brain's not as good as yours. Cause yours has 13 folds and mine only has 12. So like, well, you know, as, as you will probably hear through this discussion, the brain is always a far more complicated than we ever imagined it to be.

And you know, that you, you get into so many different questions about You know, what makes a good brain? You mentioned the fold. So, you know, is it the number of folds? Is it the number of neurons? Is it the number of connections of the neurons? Is it the strength of the connections of the neurons? Is it the amount of dopamine between the neurons versus the amount of serotonin?

so, you know, you could get into a million different variables that all could potentially have some impact. , and, you know, interestingly, as we were just talking right before we started, you know What makes a good brain could be very different depending on if you are a comedian [00:07:00] versus a scientist versus a psychologist versus a politician.

so, you know, what a very careful brain may be great if you are. Trying to protect certain things, but may not be great if you are, you know, trying to go out and explore, you know, space or something like that. Maybe you need a very daring brain. Yeah. Yeah. So do you actually, I know this is going to be, do you think that some people then are just naturally born with brains that are wired to do different?

You know, professions, like, for example, politicians, are they born with brains that are riddled in corruption? That may be yeah, you know, I'm yes. I mean, I, I think that, you know, again, there are many different. Things that our brains can do. I mean, which in and of itself is kind of remarkable.

I I'm always sort of a bit stunned by so the mentor who kind of brought me up in this whole discussion of studying the brain and specifically with regard to religion and spirituality was, it was not only a [00:08:00] psychiatrist by training, but also had a PhD in anthropology. So we often talked about evolution and, and it is kind of remarkable that you know, there's such a, a, a quantum jump between, you know, even, you know, the smartest primates, dolphins and things like that, and what humanity has been able to kind of, you know, we, we, it's not that we're just smart at math, but we're able to write, you know, Shakespearean poetry, and we're able to come up with quantum mechanics, and we're able to design skyscrapers and rockets to the moon, and we're able to create things.

Right. Governments and I mean, like, it's it spans all these different kinds of ways of thinking about the world. And so if you kind of looked at any one of them, I think, as with pretty much all traits of humanity, maybe all traits of all animals, there's kind of a bell curve, if you will. There's kind of where most of us are kind of in the middle, but there's always those people who We're out on that far end that wind up being, you know, the Mozart's of the world, the [00:09:00] Einstein's of the world.

you know, the great, you know, the great influencers of the world. and of course, you know, there's also people on the other side, unfortunately, we're not able to do a whole lot. but, you know, depending on where everyone is and where those different, domains are. that's what I think does kind of predispose people to being able to do certain things.

And, you know, again, I mean, how many people are able to write? I mean, there's millions of people out there writing music today. so what is it that made, you know, Paul McCartney and the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or, you know, you know, one of one of these groups, At the level that they were, I mean, they're still creating music just like everyone else does, but there's something about how they're tapping into the human condition, the, the, you know, what, what it kind of, how, how all of us kind of respond and feel.

you know, there are certain people who just have the ability to access. These universal qualities that all of us, you know, that then resonates with. [00:10:00] Millions of us instead of just with a couple hundred of us. And so, yeah, I think, you know, ultimately we do have different predispositions. but again, it also has to do with what we're, what we're raised as, you know, mostly I'm a doctor.

I mean, I didn't have a whole lot of doctors in my family, but obviously, if one grows up where you're encouraged to be a doctor, because you kind of want to be a doctor, then, you know, There's a good likelihood you'll be a doctor if you, maybe if I was born into a different family that was more into business or something like that, maybe, maybe I wouldn't have been a doctor and I would have gone into business or something.

So, so again, it's not, it's not just what is in our biology, but it is also all the different influences that that affect us. It's just weird to think that somebody could be born with a brain that's like, you should be a mime. why not? That obviously would be a very quiet brain. A silent brain. A silent brain?

Yeah, so let me ask you a big one that just came to me. So I've been really into Dr. Joe Dispenza's work, and the big question that he [00:11:00] says we can do, and I would love to know your thought, because you're at the intersection of spirituality and science, can we use spirituality to transcend the limitations of our own brain?

Well, on that, you know, I guess not to throw the question back at you a little bit, but what limits are we talking about? so, you know, part of what, spiritual experiences do help people with, you know, and, and this is a little bit more of the domain that I, tend to look at, you know, are kind of more health related things.

So they can maybe help somebody transcend trauma, they can transcend depression, they can help them to, you know, cope with different issues and problems in their lives. Maybe, you know, what we have learned from our surveys of spiritual experiences and from the brain scans we've done of spiritual experiences, , they, they really do change a person's perspective on life.

They change the way they think about things. So in that sense, we are transcending our limits, our limitations, where sometimes people go with this is, you know, the, the, the literal physical limitations, like, [00:12:00] are we able to. Effect objects at a distance. Am I able to somehow communicate with you or with somebody else who isn't in the room with me?

Who is isn't able to within earshot? And, and, you know, can I pray for somebody who's in the hospital and they get out of the hospital sooner? So that is a big question. You know, that that's the question that remains to be answered. I know that there are some people who feel uncomfortable. Like that is that is the case and is possible.

You know, part of what I talk about in my world of neuro theology is that we have to be very careful about the conclusions that we draw. So we can look at these things. We can try to understand them. I think it's great to do research to try to explore this. , and and hopefully, , You know, if the research is done well and we come to some conclusions that, really are paradigm shifting conclusions about the nature of our mind and our consciousness and what we are able to do, maybe, you know, I'm certainly not opposed to the idea that we can go well beyond the limitations of our, the physical limitations of our brain, [00:13:00] but I, I, I'm not sure if it just yet.

And we, we certainly have a bit of a ways to go, but I think studying, these spiritual experiences and the practices that are involved is certainly a great, great part of that. neuro theology has all these pieces of looking at near death experiences and drug induced experiences and mystical experience, you know, so all of them can help us to understand a little bit more how to answer the question that you posed.

Yeah. I think for me, the limitations is like, do I, am I only capable of being a mime? No, I mean, no, I meant like of what's actually possible. So like what, You know, we all kind of have our, I would call our reality or what we see as like a box. Like this is our reality. Like we, only this is capable for me.

Only this is, or this is capable for you. Like it, what I think is really fascinating is the people who are like, yeah, of course I can make a hundred million dollars. What separates them from the person who's like, I can't make 50, 000. So I guess it's like, how do you see that [00:14:00] with that's your brain? That's programming.

Is that spiritual limitations? Like, how do you see all that? Well, I think there is certainly a lot to be said for, you know, how we view ourselves, how we develop different beliefs about our world and what we feel we are able to do or not do. you know, I, I think your point is very well taken.

I mean, you know, and it lies at the heart of a number of spiritual traditions that, you know, if, if all you ever think you're going to be is, is, you know, a kind of a quote unquote regular person who's just going to kind of get through life, then yeah, that's, that's probably all you're going to do. If you think that you're going to be, you know, Elon Musk and, and, and rewrite.

You know, electric vehicles or send us into space or, or solve, you know, or, or cure cancer or whatever, you know, if you set your sights at a, at a, at a high goal you know, that is the way to, you know, as I forget who said it, but, you know, the, the only way to, , to test the realms of the possible is, is to think [00:15:00] of the impossible, you know, and, and so, , if you do begin to kind of focus on what is beyond, you know, Our normal ways of thinking and our normal ways of understanding the world.

Then, you know, I mean, that is a way in which we can try to do that. And I mean, it is interesting. And this is part of why I was always fascinated by these kind of mystical experiences, because people talk about those experiences as something which is. Able to go beyond our normal way of thinking about the world, be able to go beyond, , are just purely sort of subjective and objective perceptions of the world.

I'm able to try to get, you know, me as a person beyond who I am to look at reality in a different way, to experience reality in a different way. And so, I, I think that there really are some opportunities there to be able to explore how far we can truly push ourselves and what we can learn from that.

And so, you know, I mean, to some degree, the ultimate [00:16:00] goal is, is some type of spiritual enlightenment for everyone. But as they also say, you know, after enlightenment, the laundry and, and, you know, like, you kind of have to, you still have to live, you know, so there are certain basic things that we, we can't escape, but, you know, whether or not.

Yeah. these paths lead us to some personal enlightenment, to some global enlightenment and, and maybe to the next stage of human evolution, whatever that may be. You know, all of that is on the table, I think. Great. And so how have you seen, you talk a lot about rewiring your brain, how have you seen people make significant changes in the rewiring?

What have they done? What do you do? What should we do? Yeah. Well, there's a difference between what people have done and what people should do. And so as far as the, what should one do you know, part of my answer to that as someone who kind of sits in this world of integrative medicine is that you know, and I hope this isn't a cop out answer, but you know, each person kind of has to find their own path.

There is no absolute, you know, [00:17:00] one way of doing this. There isn't a one size fits all. But that being said, I mean, I think the people who are going down those paths and trying to seek out enlightenment, trying to seek out these experiences, part of it is, is to find some approach, some practice, some ritual, some, path that you do want to follow and, and really, and really push yourself down that, down that path when we have studied, for example, , we did a study of people going through a very intense, very immersive spiritual retreat program.

And so we sent them to this week long retreat. , meditate, you know, deep meditation every day, self reflection, , much of the whole week was in silence and, , and we scan their brain before and after the retreat and we see that there are some significant differences in the way their brain is operating.

Not while they're doing these practices, but just kind of at rest. And you know, for example, one of the interesting findings was, was that the brain was more responsive [00:18:00] to the effects of different neurotransmitters, the chemicals that kind of help our brain to communicate. For the neurons in our brain to communicate with each other.

So it was more sensitive to the effects of things like serotonin and dopamine. And that does imply that over time you are able to kind of change the way your brain operates. And again, we have other studies that have shown that too. And the analogy that I use at maybe addresses your question even more specifically is that many of these practices like meditation and prayer and so forth it's a little bit like lifting weights for the brain, you know, if you lift weights.

Your your your muscles get bigger and stronger. And if you look at the brain, if you do these kinds of practices over and over and over again, the brain does literally become bigger. There's been studies that have shown that long term meditators have bigger frontal lobes. For example, thicker frontal lobes than those people who are not.

And our studies show that they're more functionally active. They're able to kind of do more stuff which can be measured through, you know, cognitive measures. [00:19:00] They, people can concentrate better can remember better and so forth, have less anxiety and stress. So these, these really can kind of exercise the brain and over time just like a muscle, the brain can continue to develop.

But again, you know, there are certainly There's a kind of range with when which many of us can function. I mean, you know, we could all my example. Always. I'm an avid athlete, you know, like tennis, for example, and we all play tennis five hours a day. We'd all really be good to be really good tennis players, but they're still going to be the, you know, the, the, the, the, the Federer's and the joint conventions of the world.

There's just something different about them that's going to kind of help them rise to the very top. Yeah. Even though we, you know, raise all of us to a different kind of level. Yeah, and I guess I think you're a great person to talk to because I'm trying to reframe this I'm trying to not see it as like the brain is the problem because when I hear you say this and I've heard a lot of people say this that like meditating and stuff will actually calm the [00:20:00] brain down and allow it to be more receptive.

Then that makes me think that on your resting state in a normal day to day, your brain is actually blocking the very things that can actually help you and transcend you. How do you feel about that? What do you think? Well, you know, the brain is the problem and the brain is the solution. And so know, part of what I've talked about a lot over time and, you know, this, this starts to get into the weeds of, of things like our beliefs you know, where, what are our beliefs, where do they come from?

What do they help us with? And. What, what I've often argued is, is that our beliefs are, you know, if you take sort of an evolutionary perspective, our beliefs are about adaptability and helping us survive, not really so much about accuracy. So, you know, if, if we were walking in the, in the jungle and we hear a snap and we run and now we're safe, well, the brain did the right thing.

And now. Maybe we ran because we thought it was a lion. And if that turned out to have been a lion, then we did the right thing. If it turned out that that snap was, you know a rabbit or a chicken that could have been dinner you [00:21:00] know, then, then we did the wrong thing. And so so our brain does have the ability to sort of look at the world in different ways that over millions of years of evolution has helped us to survive.

We have a fight or flight response. Why? Because. You know, things happen. Starting 500 million years ago, when you know all animals realize that they have to eat another animal and it's either eat, you know, eat or be eaten. You've got to get out of there or you've got to, you know, go after it. And so.

So, you know, in some sense, we have that built into our system. But now when the, you know, we then apply the fight or flight response to the stock markets going up or, you know, the political winds change or whatever. Now suddenly, you know, all these fears and anxieties or, you know, whatever's going on within us does affect a lot of how our brain operates and, you know, even the biases that we hold.

Again, you know, I mean, biases are there for good reasons. I mean, we, we want to. Sort of anticipate that certain kinds of people that [00:22:00] certain kinds of places that certain kinds of foods are are good for us or bad for us so that we can survive. The question is, how do we get beyond that to kind of look at the world in a different kind of way?

And does that ultimately help us to look at the world in a way that, you know, literally does kind of, you know, transcend our kind of everyday way of looking at the world? And is that ultimately good? I mean, you know if all of us became enlightened and we all sat on a mountaintop and we, we didn't have children and, you know, I mean, we'd all be very enlightened spiritual beings, but in a hundred years, our species would be gone.

So that isn't a great, you know, is that the right way or the wrong way of being? I don't know. Right. I think for me sometimes it's like the pain of feeling like I want the iPhone 16 and sometimes I feel like I have the iPhone negative a hundred. Does that make sense? Well, yeah, I mean, and a lot of spiritual traditions do help us to kind of look at the world in different ways.

I mean, we look at the world in a very specific [00:23:00] way. We have our anxieties, our fears, our, our very. You know, theologians throughout time have been talking about, you know, the body versus the, the, the soul or the spirit. And of course, I mean, we have to eat and we have to, you know, if we're going to continue our species, this is what I talk about in sex, God in the brain.

I mean, we have to procreate, we have to have sex. You know, I mean, it's fun, but if we don't have sex, our species doesn't continue. So, so that's part of why it's fun because evolution is realized. We've got to do it. Yeah. You know, so so that's all part of the processing that our brain has to kind of go through so that it helps us to survive.

But then, It does. It can trap us at times and it can make it difficult for us to explore new ideas to expand beyond the current beliefs that we hold. It can create a kind of us versus them mentality, which can make us very rigid and hateful and so forth. So, you know, many of the spiritual traditions.

You know, help us to see things that way, but also can help us say, well, you know, [00:24:00] we're all human beings and we all should have some compassion for each other and we should be open to each other and we should help each other. So, you know, in virtually all aspects of of. are a lot, you know, of humanity there's sort of the good and the bad.

And and again, I mean, the good and the bad is there for reasons. I mean, we, unfortunately for us to survive for every animal to survive, we need to kill other animals, I mean, or, or kill plants or something. We have to kill something in order to survive. And that's not a great thing. And, you know, but, but we don't have a choice, you know, so.

And in fact, I think that part of how our brain evolved was to kind of balance the violence that we kind of need to have in order to get resources in order to get food and so forth with enough compassion and ability to to create a cohesive group so that we also can survive, you know, so there's there's these always these balances and we're striving to find the best balance that we can.

Yeah. So you mentioned this, your books [00:25:00] do talk a lot about sex. Is that because you're finally showing that neuroscientists are also super horny? Well, I, unfortunately, or fortunately we all are. I mean, it's it is the way we are built and You know, it is the most important thing for any species to be able to do, because if you don't procreate, you don't go anywhere.

And so you know, and, and, you know, I mean, it is interesting you know, in sex, God, in the brain, and one of the things that I always sort of point out to people, even the deeply religious people, you know, you read your Bible. When God creates human beings, what's the first thing God tells us to do? God doesn't say prayed or God doesn't say create a religion.

God says, be fruitful and multiply. And so, you know, God from right from the beginning says, be fruitful. Be sexual and and so yeah, you know, we all are and you know, your point is also well taken in the sense that one of the things I try to remind people is that, you know, I love it when people hold science up to this great ideal yeah, science has a certain objectivity, but science is [00:26:00] done by scientists and they are every bit as petty and every bit as Every bit is horny.

I mean, think about all these, you know, very well known scientists. Stephen Hawking, his wife, they all cheat on people you know, so yeah, we're who we are and for our faults and, and our our virtues and and that's part of what I think, you know, spirituality is about is also kind of saying, yeah, you know, I, I am a finite, flawed, mortal being.

And yet I also can have the opportunity to, to touch something that is, is far beyond what I am. And so that ability to sort of connect with something greater than the self is part of what sort of takes us beyond all of this very basic stuff that is, is difficult for us to do and difficult for us to deal with.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was going to say, because you mentioned on a podcast that sex actually can mirror our relationship with God. Is that what you're saying right now? Kind of? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I [00:27:00] mean, sexuality, like spirituality you know, can be a wonderful thing. I mean, if you're in love with someone, Sexuality is this way of creating intimacy and creating a connection creating pleasure between two people.

And as Woody Allen said, it's a great thing between two people and between five. It's fantastic. But and I try not to put Woody Allen too often. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Cause he was a little horny as well, but anyway, I, I love Woody Allen, but anyway But, you know, the, the point is, is that that, that we have to you know, when, when it does come to things like sexuality and spirituality, it can be a wonderful expression.

It can be great, but they can also turn very bad. And unfortunately, very evil. I mean, again, sexuality can be wonderful between 2 people and create intimacy. But if taken, you know, beyond that, it can be harassment. It could be rape. I mean, it can be, you know, it could be truly horrific religion. I mean, you know, I have worked in hospitals and have worked with pastoral care teams who are deeply religious individuals.

Usually [00:28:00] from a specific, you know, they're all they all have their own specific tradition that they come from and yet they go into the hospital and it doesn't matter what you are, you know, if you're an atheist or, you know, different religion or whatever they are open and lovely and strive to help every human being that walks through those doors.

So, you know, you have these. Incredibly religious people who are like the most open and wonderful people for every religious tradition. And then you have other people who are deeply religious people who are willing to, you know, strap a bomb around their chest and kill people who don't believe the way they do.

So, so religion, you know, more people is as so many people have reflected on, you know, more people have been killed in the name of religion than virtually anything else. And so again, it can be something that can be for a great good, and unfortunately, it can also be for great bad. So one of the questions you ask people is what does God feel like?

What if their answer is Taco Bell? Well, you know you know, I know you're, you're, you're asking a kind of funny question, but, you know, it [00:29:00] is interesting to about what exactly is religion and what exactly is spirituality. I wrote a book about 15 years ago called the principles of neuro theology. And the 1st chapter is about definitions.

And, you know, how do we define these things? Is it okay to define your religion as Taco Bell spirituality? It is connected to that. You know, the silly example I always use is, is from my best friend. I'm from the Philadelphia area and he claims his religion is the Philadelphia. Eagles. You know, and they meet on Sundays and they sing songs and they do a lot of praying.

You know, so and some fighting. Yeah, it's great. And some fighting and you know, right now it's a, it's a decent religion, but you know, I mean, it, it really does raise some interesting questions though, is to what exactly is a religion and what exactly is spirituality? And I, I get a lot of people who come up to me and say well, my spirituality is creativity or being in nature or, you know listening to Mozart concertos.

And you know, is, is that. Okay, to say that. [00:30:00] And I mean, obviously, I don't mean that in terms of, is it, you know, good or bad, but, but is it accurate to say that, you know, and how, how do we differentiate somebody who claims that, you know, their religious beliefs are, you know, one thing or another, when we, when we look at cults and the, you know, the, what was the cult that thought there was like, you know, a spaceship in the comment or something like that.

I mean, you know, obviously that's pretty out there as far as a belief system goes, but how similar or different is it from, you know, Being, you know, Catholic or Jewish or whatever, you know, how do, how do we differentiate those different ideas? And you know, is it just the ones that were adaptive and successful?

Are there certain specific elements that carry with it a greater sense of, you know, Of weight, a greater, you know, sense of reality, a greater sense of accuracy. And, and of course, if I were to gather a group of people to help me come up with good definitions for spirituality and religion I would get very different I'm Answers if I brought a [00:31:00] group of 20 theologians, a group of 20 psychiatrists, a group of 20 sociologists, a group of 20 comedians, everybody would have a very different kind of answer in terms of what it is.

And so it is. It is challenging for us to think about, you know, what these ideas mean and how people define them. And just to bring up another kind of interesting example is we, we wrote a book called Varieties of Spiritual Experience. And so we get all of these different descriptions of experiences.

And, you know, some people say when they had their experience that they felt love and somebody else felt a force and somebody else felt God and somebody else saw light. So again, you know, the question is, Are they all the same exact experience that are then interpreted differently? Or are they experience, you know, are they you know, fundamentally different experiences and you know, yeah.

You know, I mean, I don't know how many people think Taco Bell has got. I know, I'm sure there's a bunch of people who think chocolate is . Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, taco Bell's been a bit of my God, recently, unfortunately. [00:32:00] But I guess my question, this is going to sound simple, but it's not, does it, do you think it matters?

Does, do, do these conclusions make a difference? You know, a lot of people, I, I've, you hear a lot. I talked to, I come across, they'll be like, I'm not religious. I'm, I'm sorry. I believe the science. It's like, do we have to be on these teams? Like, what do you think? Does it matter? Well, you know, In my own personal sort of exploration of all of these things I, I tend to feel that, that all of these perspectives have something to say about reality.

And so, yeah, I tend to think that they all, you know. We're basically, you know, these very finite limited beings that which are looking out on an infinite universe and and we have access to like point zero zero zero and throw in like a thousand zeros one percent of everything that's going on in this universe.

And then somehow we figure we think we know what's going on, you know, and remarkable in and of itself. Right. But but so I think [00:33:00] that, and that's part of what I hope neurotheology helps us because it says, look, you know, if you go down just a spiritual path, you learn a lot of things about the world or about who we are as human beings, but there's certain things you miss.

And if you go down a scientific path, you'll learn a lot of things about the world and who we are as human beings. But there are certain things that you miss. And so I think the more you can bring in other perspectives, the more we can kind of round out all the different ways in which we look at things.

I think that's going to get us closer to what is sort of the true nature of reality, whatever, whatever that may be. And so I, I, I personally, you You know, I'm always kind of reluctant to say that one should be in one camp or another. You know, maybe that is ultimately the way we decide about our world.

And I mean, it is helpful to develop ideas and models about the world because it does help us to survive. It helps us to, you know, explore and expand, you know, who we are as humanity. It may help us go to the stars. It may help us to find peace on earth or, you know, all the, all the great idealistic things.

[00:34:00] But exactly how we do that. I don't know. You know, I, but I think, you know, being open to the different perspectives until we are sure to close one I think is probably the most helpful. And and maybe the last way to answer your question is that you know, and I think this is an analogy from, I don't know, Hindu thought or whatever.

But you know, if you think about like flies buzzing around an elephant and then you were to, you know, somehow ask them, you know, What exactly is it that you were flying around, you know, for, for one of them, it's a tusk. And for one of them, it's a toenail. And for one of them, it's an ear. And for one of them, it's a, you know, a trunk and they're all right, but they're also all wrong.

I mean, they're, you know, none of them have seen the elephant in its entirety, so to speak. And so I think that's kind of how I feel about the universe. I mean, none of us can ever see it in its entirety. So if somebody says, we're going to do science, okay, great. You know, but, but there's, there's a lot of But that doesn't answer our, that doesn't tell us how to get rid of inflation or, or, you know, what should now happen in Syria or whatever.

I mean, you know, how do you, what, what mathematical equation tells you how to handle the [00:35:00] war in Ukraine? I mean, there is none and you don't get to experiment either. You know, the, like in, in, in medical research, it'd be great if I could take, you know, a hundred different wars in Ukraine and try all these different, Approaches and then find the one that worked and then apply it.

But you can't do that. You have you it's reality. You have one opportunity to do something and, and, and, you know, you hope it will work, but whether it does or not, you know, you don't know. And then whether it does or not, you now go on to whatever the next situation is. And it's just, it's like football, you know, I mean, like at some point you got to call a play and you got to run the play and if the guy catches it and scores a touchdown, you look like a genius.

And if the, if the interception and they go the other way and score a touchdown, you look like an idiot. You know, but you have to make a decision and you have to try something. Has it occurred to you, because this has occurred to me, that you're using logic and answers to come up with the fact that there are no answers?

Has that ever occurred to you? Oh, yeah. It's pretty crazy. So in my book How Enlightenment Changes Your Brain, I tell a little bit about my own personal [00:36:00] story and and, you know, the way, and this is really why I got into all of this in the first place, which was trying to understand reality and as I kind of went through this whole process that included science included, you know, philosophy and religion and so forth what I decided to kind of my approach was going to be that if I wasn't sure about something, it didn't mean it was wrong or right.

It just meant I wasn't sure. And I would put that into the what I would call kind of this realm of doubt. And as I kind of went through this very deep contemplative process, this was kind of about the time I was in college and heading into medical school. You know, I, I eventually had just this massive pile of doubt that my, the experience that I ultimately had was something that I refer to as infinite doubt.

Where, you know, I basically came to the kind of experience of not being able to know anything. And you know, on one hand, when I've told some of my friends and colleagues that they say, well, that must have been the worst experience. You know, here you are trying to find this answer and you kind of come to this answer that you're never going to [00:37:00] know anything.

And I said, but you know, it was kind of interesting that it was probably one of the most calming, most you know, profoundly sort of blissful experiences that I've ever had. There was a sense of oneness and interconnectedness of, of, of things within this doubt. And so, you know, it, it carried with it you know, very interesting experience of unknowing and it kind of took the angst away from needing to know.

And so it did have a very profound effect on me and I continued to sort of explore what to do with that experience and, and where it can, you know, where I can go you know, from that or where we can go from that. But but yeah, I mean, it is, it's sort of using, you know, The different thought processes that we have to realize that almost nothing is, is, is something that we can really, you know, hang our hat on, so to speak.

So it is a real conundrum. It is a philosophical challenge, a scientific challenge a mystical challenge. I, I, you know, a little bit of all of those things. So what keeps your curiosity going then? Like why continue [00:38:00] down this, this path if you're like, we don't have answers. Cause you still kind of are trying to find the answers, right?

Right. Well, it's on one hand, it has taken some of the like I said, the angst away from actually finding the answer. But I, I think. I guess in my own ways of thinking or rationalizing the process I do sort of feel like kind of the, you know, the nature of existence, the nature of our lives is to explore is to sort of try to understand our world.

And so even though on one hand, you never really have a true, you know, 100 percent understanding of it that we kind of keep exploring it and keep trying to learn about the world, keep trying to learn about who we are. And, and I feel like I have learned so much along the way. But, you know, and just because no one has ever, you know, fully figured it out, doesn't mean no one can figure it out.

So as I always like to tell everybody is that, you know, I am still working on it and her figure it out. I. I will be sure to be back on [00:39:00] your, your show and let everyone know what the answer is, but haven't gotten there just yet. But you did have a really great answer on Mel Robbins podcast when you talked about enlightenment kind of can really be found in the small moments.

And I love that. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, if this journey, if you will, I mean, to sort of, you know, use some trite analogies, you know, we're all sort of climbing a mountain. And, you know, 1 hand, we're all trying to get to the top of that mountain, but there are many paths to that mountain.

And each of us has to kind of find our own. And along the way. We can see a lot of great things and experience a lot of great things. And so you know, when it comes to things like enlightenment itself, there is the big E as we say, which is kind of the, you know, the, the earth shattering life changing, getting to the top of the mountain and, and looking out at everything.

But there are many of these small experiences that we all have had experience with along the way. And that can be, you know understanding some new way of, of, of looking at the [00:40:00] world. It could be a new way of solving a problem in our lives with with a job, with a relationship, like, you know, some aspect of, of the world is which we're looking at.

So, so we're all. Able to have some of these kinds of experiences where we, we, we have those aha moments and, and think about things in a different way. So it changes the way we think about a certain thing, but it's a, you know, you typically a certain thing, whereas the big E experiences are those that really just change every aspect of who we are and it just sort of revolutionizes the way we understand ourselves and the way we understand the world and how, how we interact with that world.

But, but those little experiences. Are part of that path are part of that process. Arguably, you know, help us along that way that as we have those smaller experiences, we are ultimately able to have these big experiences. And, and, I mean, part of what to me has always been an exciting result of our research, both in terms of the imaging studies, and then this big survey that we did where we got a couple thousand people talking about [00:41:00] their enlightenment experiences is that.

They appear to be able to happen to anyone and everyone. And so, you know, the good news is, is that, you know, even though, you know, any given person listening hasn't found it yet, it's yet, you know, and these experiences are sort of out there for the possibility of all of us to find, you know, if I were to brain scan every one of us, if I were to cut up our brains, they all do operate in pretty similar ways for the most part.

And so, you know, You know, we all have the potential to have these experiences. It's a matter of kind of, you know, finding the right combination to the lock, so to speak, to help you figure out what works best for a given person. And that again, that has a lot to do with their genetics, their predispositions, their traditions that they were brought up in, the experiences they've had, the people they know that kind of help them along their particular path.

Yeah, you mentioned the security guard doing traffic and how happy he was and I feel like [00:42:00] that's just such a good I talk about this a lot in the podcast, like we're all waiting for these quote, big moments to change our life while like our actual life is happening. And we miss, we're missing the opportunity to enjoy that job, you know?

Yeah, well, and that was something that I learned, you know, way back in college you know, I had a wonderful professor who we still correspond with. And you know, he, he, he actually taught Hindu and, and part of the point that he was always making is, is that, you know, you can kind of go through life.

With kind of blinders on and just kind of, you know, kind of going through and just make sure you have your cup of coffee in the morning and show up at work and do your job and go home. And, and, but, you know, you're not really like living. And so and it doesn't take anything. It's not like you have to do something radically different.

You just really have to pay attention. To the world around you to the world inside of you. And so instead, you know, he would, he would go through this whole thing about new instead of having a, a [00:43:00] cup of coffee in the morning and taking a shower. Imagine, you know, the hot water, you know, pouring over the coffee beans, creating this wonderful liquid that you savor and you, you know, you taste the sweetness and this bitterness and the shirt, you know, the.

And then you get into the shower and you feel the water cascading over, you know, and you feel the cleanliness like you can appreciate and love, you know, every aspect of who you are. And it was the story of the policeman who you know, near where our hospital was, who just, you know, he could see how passionate he was about it, how into it.

He was, he's blowing his whistle. He's dancing around. He's pointing and this and that. And And you know, I mean, that's sort of an enlightened individual there. They're, they're, they're just, you know, you don't have to be a monk, you know, sitting in a monastery to be enlightened. You can be anything, you know, you can be a cab driver.

You can, you know, work at a, you know, at a gas station. You can be a doctor. You could be anything. And be enlightened. You can be working at anything and not be enlightened. So, you know, it's not what you do, but it's really kind of how you [00:44:00] do it, which is so, so fundamental. And again, that's, that goes back to your first question about, you know, how do these spiritual experiences get us beyond ourself and take us from getting up in the morning, having a cup of coffee and having a shower to having a cup of coffee and taking a wonderful shower and really, you know, Having a great time at work and, and, and being passionate about what we do and passionate about our, our relationships and our friends and, you know, pickleball and whatever it is that you're gonna do.

That's right. That's where I'm headed after this, you know, so that's, and, and I love it. And, and it's great and, you know, and you can really enjoy it and have a great time and, and, and appreciate the things, you know, and, and the true, the same is true for the negative too. I mean, I've often sort of thought about that.

I mean, when you, when you feel anxious, when you feel upset, when you feel, you know, like. Enjoy that. And I use that in close. I mean, or at least appreciate it because it means you're alive. You know, it means you're able to experience the world and you can experience the good and the bad. And, and, you know, I mean, hopefully you don't have to experience too much [00:45:00] bad, but you know, those are, those are some of the things that we all have to have to deal with in various ways.

I love it. This has been great, by playing a game, a quick game. It's called, it's called Spiritual or Asshole, where I say some things, you tell me if it's spiritual or asshole, are you down? Alright, I'll give it a shot. Here we go! Spiritual or Asshole! Measuring people's value based off of their intelligence.

That would probably be in the asshole range. All right. Spirits are also atheists who believe in nothing, but do believe in the lucky number seven.

Oh my well, I guess maybe they are spiritual, even though they're kind of an asshole and telling everybody else that they're wrong. Spirits of Arousal, getting baptized. So you're getting back into religion, but you get baptized as an adult, but instead of a river or a lake, they get baptized in a lazy river in Las Vegas.

Well, I guess in that case, it goes back to the point that we were talking about earlier. It depends a little bit on how you define these different things, but [00:46:00] if. If that's what makes the person spiritual, then they can be spiritual. Love it. Spiritual or asshole? Praying to ask for something. Well, I guess it depends on what you're asking for.

You know, if you're asking for the Lamborghini maybe that's a little bit of the asshole. If you, if you're asking for world peace and happiness and, and and reducing suffering, then that's spiritual. Okay, great. Spiritual Asshole, saying to someone that you're about to hook up with, listen, we're doing this for God.

Well

you're, you're gonna learn that as many of my colleagues have learned about me, that it's very difficult for me to give us a hard and true answer one way or another. I'm noticing this. I'm noticing this. Yes. So If it's purely to get the hook up, then it's an asshole. But if it's really about making a connection with somebody, it could be spiritual.

All right. Last one. Spiritual wrestle. Citing God when the good things happen, but not the bad. Like, praise be to God, I won the Super Bowl, but my DUI I got right after. That was the Dallas police's fault. Well, I do wonder about that. You know, I don't know if [00:47:00] I would call them an asshole for doing that, but there's certainly a an incongruity there.

And so, I mean, I think a lot of people do look at spirituality and in different ways. And but yeah, I mean, it's something that I've certainly always thought about is to, you know, why do we, why do we look at, you know, At positive things in one way, negative things in another way. And, and of course, sometimes even when people do look at the negative and they say, well, that was God's will.

You know, what, what exactly does that mean? What does that mean? Yeah. Yeah. And, and so it, it's, it's, it's a, it's a conundrum. I don't know if I could give an answer for that, but but it, it certainly underlies the, the, the difficulty that all of us have at understanding the world around us. So I, I, I think it's.

I don't think it's either spiritual or asshole. It's just how people are struggling. You know, we're all struggling to understand the world. And, and sometimes we, we wind up coming up with some conclusions that, that aren't real consistent at [00:48:00] times. All right. Well, this was great. Last question I ask everybody, if you could tell people one thing to tell themselves all day long, what would it be?

One thing to tell themselves all day long. I'll, I'll, I would say that you know, every person is special and every person should look at the world in, in a special way, you know, and try to appreciate their own specialness of the world around them. I love it. All right. You want to tell me where they can find you and get all your awesome books.

You have a ton. Sure. So you know, people can certainly look up my work on my website, which is Andrew Newberg, N E W B E R G dot com. And they can also follow me on Instagram, which is dr. dr dot Andrew Newberg, all one word. And that's all on Instagram. I'm trying to help people get through the whole exploration of the world.

So so they can enjoy that as well. I love it. Well, this has been great, man. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been great. [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00]