You Can Be Happy Living Under a Bridge (w/Matt Tenney)

Did you know you can be happy living anywhere? They don’t tell you this on Priceline.com. Brendan talks with bestselling author, speaker, and mindset expert Matt Tenney, who after serving time in solitary for attempting a multi-million dollar heist, discovered the real prison was in his mind. 

The two go all in and explore:

🧘‍♂️ How Matt turned an extended stint in prison into the best meditation retreat ever, 
 🧠 The TWO QUESTIONS that can change how you see everything,
🍽️ Why brushing your teeth mindfully can be better than any psychedelic, 
💭 The MAGIC PHRASE that lets your mind know you're in charge                             🪖 And whether or not invading a foreign country counts as a healthy anxiety release. 

RESOURCES

• Matt Tenney’s Website
• Matt’s Books
• The Inspire Greatness Podcast
• Matt Tenney's Inner Monologue 

Transcript

All right everybody. Welcome to a brand new, incredible episode of Spiritual Asshole. I'm so excited to be joined by Matt Tenney. He's a mindfulness speaker, bestselling author, and host of the Inspire Greatness podcast. Matt, how are you? I'm excellent. How are you, bran? I'm fantastic. So you said you went from a prisoner to a monk.

Do you think it's better to be a prisoner because at least the food is good? You know, the, the food was actually pretty good sometimes. Um, although I, I've lived in a monastery and I, I think, uh, the food was actually better there. However, I. The cool part about the prison is I, I, I consider it like a monastery on steroids because, you know, have you been to a monastery, Brendan?

I've not, I've been to a monastery in Austria, but you can imagine what it would be like. I can, I can. I I've also have been to a jail, so I know what that's like. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, you know, you, you go to a monastery and like everyone's really nice to you. It's [00:01:00] very quiet and peaceful. And of course that's great.

Like if you're a lay person, you want to go visit and just relax, it's nice. But you know, if you really want to grow, the best way to grow is to experience pain, right? Mm-hmm. And learn how to respond to pain and grow from that pain. And in a prison nobody's nice to you. And it's loud and it's, you know, messy.

In fact, some people in, you know, they really want to hurt you. Yeah. Um, so you know, you have opportunities all the time. To really face emotions like fear and anger that, I mean, everyone gets to face to some degree, but maybe not quite at that level of intensity. Yeah. We're gonna get into that because I have so many thoughts.

This is, your story is fascinating. So yeah, you went to a military prison for unlawfully wiring, $3 million of the government money to yourself. Can I give you my Venmo? Can we make this happen, bro? Well, it's close. Yeah. I didn't actually wire anything. It was, [00:02:00] uh. I arranged an unauthorized delivery of funds from the Federal Reserve Bank to uh, uh, the Marine Corps base.

That's awesome. And once I arranged the delivery, I realized like, man, there's no way I can go through with this. I, I didn't want to be a criminal. I didn't even have a pay a plan for picking the money up, but I had taken enough steps by arranging the delivery to be guilty of an attempted fraud. It sounded like the first half of Mission Impossible.

Like you almost did it. Yeah. Like, uh, mission gone po Mission impossible, gone wrong, like the mission was in fact impossible. Mission not possible. That's pretty great, man. Yeah. So, no, I think it's, it's pretty fascinating and I think your story, so. I listened to a lot of stuff that you did. So you basically then went to this military prison for five and a half years, but about six months in, you kind of were like, well, I am here.

What do I do? Right. That was the pivotal moment. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the first, the first couple months [00:03:00] were pretty rough, uh, because I was, I was an officer in the Marine Corps. I was actually on leave awaiting my discharge when, when this happened. So I wasn't going to work as a Marine every day. I. But I was still technically in the Marine Corps, so that's why I was initially arrested by the FBI, but then moved to a Marine Corps, Bri at Camp Pendleton in, in Southern California.

And because I was an officer, they kept me segregated from the enlisted people who were in the Brigg, which was basically everyone. I was the only one who was an officer for the first, I think, six months I was there. So I spent 22 hours per day alone in a six by nine cell. Mm. And the two hours per day that I was outside of it.

I was isolated, so like I wasn't allowed to talk to people. I had to eat by myself. I went out to the rec yard to walk in circles, basically by myself. Um, and so, you know, it was, uh, it was pretty intense. You know, I, I, I, I'm slightly introverted. I'm like kind, kind of like right in the middle, but that level of seclusion was not something I was prepared [00:04:00] for.

In fact, you know, I was madly in love with a, with a woman at the time, and, you know, so being torn from her not being able to see her, it was, it, it was pretty intense. And there was. There was a while where I just had suicidal thoughts flashing through my mind almost continuously. And for a good month or two, I went to bed every night just praying.

I wouldn't wake up in the morning, you know? 'cause it was just that level. It was, I, I, I had battled anxiety and depression my whole life and struggled with those things. But this was like nothing I had ever dealt with. But yeah, about, um, about a year into my confinement, actually, I. Maybe it was a little before that I started thinking about like, man, there must be something good that can come of this.

Mm. And there were actually two questions that I ask that I often share with people. 'cause I think they're really helpful. I still use them to this day. Whenever I'm experiencing something that provokes a lot of, uh, resistance or a lot of anxiety or something that we would normally call a mistake, I, I immediately [00:05:00] start asking, okay, what am I learning from this?

Or what could I learn from this? And. What, how could what I learn help me to serve other people? Because really, I mean, when it comes down to it, that's what life is about, right? Is like, what, what are we doing to make a positive impact on the lives of others? Whether it's you bringing a smile to people's face with your comedy, um, or something grand, you know, like, uh, starting some non-profit that, you know, saves the world, so to speak.

But how are big or small? Like that's what it really comes down to. So I started asking those questions and, and that led me to think, well, I do have this opportunity to train my mind all the time. I mean, there's nothing else going on here, right? I mean, I can, I'm by myself. I've got this cell and I've got a couple books.

That's it. So, very fortunately for me, I started learning about mindfulness. I had asked my mother to send me some books, and she sent me a couple books and there was one idea. That just [00:06:00] really captured my attention. There was a monk named Han is a Oh yeah. Vietnamese monk who died a few years ago, and he, he just offered this very simple, I, I think it's a challenge to how we normally think, because we normally think, particularly in the West, that our happiness is dependent on what we do or what we get.

Some condition being met in the future. Right? Absolutely. Well, this simple idea that he offered was. You know, actually your problems aren't, uh, uh, the result of a lack of having something or some condition being met. It's almost entirely result of comparative thinking. And if you're not comparing what's happening now to your better memories of the past, or your better hopes for a future, hmm.

Right now is probably okay. In fact, you could make the argument that right now is actually perfect just the way that it is. Mm. And so I started reflecting on this and, you know, and I just, I, I, I spent a lot of time thinking about this and eventually it kind of came to me, well, wait a [00:07:00] second. So if I am brushing my teeth in a prison cell and my mind is either empty of thought or I'm at least not identified with comparative thoughts, so I'm not comparing that moment of brushing my teeth to anytime I've brushed my teeth in the past.

Or anytime that I might brush my teeth in the future. How is brushing my teeth in a prison cell any different than brushing my teeth in my house or in a five star hotel in the tropics? You tell me, Brendan, what, what's the difference? Well, and the prison example, a bunch of guys are trying to be your boyfriend.

Yeah, but here's the cool, here's the key point. No, no, I completely agree with you. I can't wait to chime in. But wait a second. The, the, you, you, you bring up a very good point. But when does that happen? That doesn't happen until that thought arises and you identify with it. Hmm. So let's say the thought arises.

Let's say you're brushing your teeth in a prison cell and it's perfect. Right? You're just like, man, the Brussels, the [00:08:00] Bris, the brushes of the, the brush of the, uh, the toothbrush is tickling my gums. You know, I, I feel, uh, at peace because I feel my feet on the floor. There's nothing wrong with that moment of brushing the teeth.

Yes. Then a thought comes up. The thought says, yeah, but the dude next door wants to be your boyfriend now. So then you have a choice, right in that moment. If you have some self-awareness, you have the choice to, to either dive into that thought and start ident. You can identify with it, start arguing with it, start feeding it, start trying to block it out, whatever.

Or with mindful self-awareness, you can simply observe that that thought is there. Allow it to be there, and then allow your awareness to reopen to what else is happening. And guess what? That thought arises and passes away. And so there's this divergence of two possibilities in that moment. One is. You can return to realizing that that moment is in fact perfect, because in that [00:09:00] moment he's not trying to be your boyfriend, that you're, you're in separate cells, right?

Like there's no threat in that moment. Yes. Or you can start feeding and fueling that thought and you could turn what is otherwise again, you could make the argument a perfect moment into hell because you start worrying about what could happen in the future. With Bubba next door, right? Like it is Bubba.

Okay. This is so great. I, I love everything you said. I've been talking so much about the predictable, uh, familiar past, predictable future here. Um, but here's what I wanna say. Like, do you see yourself as somebody who, if you could be happy here, and I hope everybody could see this, then you could be happy anywhere.

Right. Like that's, to me the greatest gift that I got. I mean, I truly view my time in confinement as a gift because I think a lot of people intellectually, you know, they, they read some great books. They practice some mindfulness or some other form of meditation, and they intellectually [00:10:00] believe that it's possible to be happy with nothing in a place that many people would call pretty close to hell on earth and, but they don't have the wisdom of that experience.

I had that experience, you know, for five and a half years. Now, granted the first year was not very pleasant. I had struggled with my thoughts and emotions tremendously to the point of having suicidal thoughts. But once I started learning how to train the mind, I did in fact realize I. That you can be just as happy in a prison.

In fact, I was happier in a prison than I'd ever been in my life. Why? Because the real prison is never the situation that we're in. The real prison is always the thoughts we have about the situation that we're in. Mm-hmm. So. All my life. I mean, things were pretty good, you know, like before I was confined, I was, I was a stud, you know, I was like, this really fit Marine.

I had a beautiful, uh, girlfriend from Brazil who I was thinking of marrying. She used to be a model in [00:11:00] Brazil, and she, this is why Bubba wanted to date you. Yeah, yeah. You know, she had this great like outgoing, fun personality. Super nice, super smart. I mean, she was just like, uh, you know, perfect. In my mind, you know, I had all these things that seemed great.

Was I happy? Heck no. Mm-hmm. I was depressed. I was anxious all the time. I was worried that, you know, things were gonna go wrong with her, that we weren't gonna be together. You know, I always found ways to find what was wrong in my life instead of appreciating what I already had. And so then when I was in prison, I had nothing.

So there wasn't anything. Yeah. To wor worry about losing or gaining. It was, it was just like this simple recognition that if you're not identified with thought, the present moment is perfect just the way that it is. Mm. There's nothing wrong with it. And so like the, then the logic extended. Okay, if I, if I could be happy while I'm brushing my teeth.

[00:12:00] Because I'm not, I identified with comparative thoughts, uh, between past and future. Well then couldn't I do that while I was making my bed? Couldn't I do that while I was getting dressed? Couldn't I do that while I was walking back and forth in my cell? And you can see where I'm going with this, right?

Yes. And all of a sudden this light appeared at the end of the proverbial tunnel where I realized, yes, I think I could do that. And so I set myself on a path to train to do that. And I think where you heard the six months was. After about six months of training. That's right. Mindfulness. I was thriving and I was happier in a prison than I'd ever been in my life.

I was pr, I was making the effort to be mindfully self-aware during just about every waking moment of the day. And I was literally in heaven, you know, in a prison, which is something that like, again, it, it's something I view as the greatest gift because it almost like removes all fear in life because I feel like there's literally nothing to lose.

Like, if someone were to take, now I'm married with two beautiful children. I, you know, I run a couple [00:13:00] companies e everything seems great again on paper. And, but if, if that were all to go away, obviously I don't want it to go away. I mean, I, I love my children, I love my wife. Um, but if it were all taken from me and I was homeless under a bridge on the street, like I have the wisdom to know that would not affect my happiness in the least.

Oh my God. Of course, there'd be some initial. There'd be some initial sadness over the loss of being able to interact with my children or my wife. Yeah. But which is normal. But the point is like, I don't think anyone, I don't care. You could be the Dalai Lama. In fact, I know people who interact with the Dalai Lama regularly and they said that dude gets frustrated all the time.

Yeah. But the difference between him and a normal person is that the frustration is like a trace. It lasts for like a second. He might say something that seems like he's frustrated, and then literally a second later, it's like nothing ever happened, so there's no, there's nothing for it to stick to. So we're all gonna experience these emotions.

And I, I know that I would experience those emotions, but [00:14:00] they would be maybe a, maybe not a second, like the Dalai Lama, but maybe an hour. And then that would be it. And I'd be just fine. Can I call your Brazilian girlfriend? Sure. I, I have no idea how to reach her. I, I have lost, uh, touch with her long since, so I don't know where she is or what she's doing.

Um, okay, so one of the things I've said a lot on this podcast is the only question you have to ask yourself is can you leave your own prison? And obviously your example is a real prison. It's a real thing that happened, but I. I know this sounds dark, but I want to say like we're all living in a prison, but I think so many people don't even know that 'cause they don't even know what freedom tastes like.

And you, I couldn't agree with you more and you, and you actually experienced freedom. So how, what would you say to people who are like, uh, I don't think I'm in a prison. Like my, like I'm just, but they're, but they're going like. Rat race [00:15:00] style. Like let's say somebody who's working in New York City where I used to work, something like that, you know?

Yeah. Well, I would ask them to consider, and, and there's actually a really cool study, which I know you've, you've, you've, um, studied a lot, uh, on mindfulness, and so you might have heard of this study and I'll, which I'll share in a second. But, you know, I, I would just ask them, you know, to say like, look, if, if you were to be in a room by yourself for eight hours, like how happy would you be?

No phone. No phone, no music, just just an empty room, a glass of water for eight hours. Your average person would go nuts in, in probably an hour. Absolutely. And, and so my question is like, in fact I, I have a friend who's very, um, very wise, maybe, maybe the, the wisest person that I'm actually friends with.

His name is Michael Carroll, and he was, uh, he wrote a book called The Mindful Leader, and he was. He was asked to come into this insurance company and do some consulting, or I'm sorry, some executive coaching with the [00:16:00] CEO. The CEO really liked, he doesn't normally lead with mindfulness. It just kind of came up and the CEO really liked it.

And so he, he, uh, the CEO asked Michael to come in and train his whole executive team on mindfulness. However, he didn't tell them that. He asked Michael to come in and all of a sudden he's like, Michael, you know, I was, I told the executive team. I thought that, um. They, they, they should have some training with you, but I didn't tell 'em like, what you do or anything, so can you just take it away?

And they're, he's like, whoa, okay. This is, uh, this is challenging. You know, he is like, well, you know, I, I'm, I'm guessing you're talking about mindfulness. And he said, yeah, I'd like you to teach them mindfulness. And immediately there was just like, wait a second, mindfulness, what does that have to do with business?

What does that have to do with anything? And, uh, you know, Michael just said, yeah, you know, you're right. He just sat there, didn't say a word, just sat in silence. Like, I think he, he, he was like kind of walking at [00:17:00] his clock. I think it was literally 45 seconds before people say, wait, wait, what's going on?

What's happening? Like, what, what, what just happened? Did this meeting just fall apart? And Michael said, no, we're just sitting here, man. Wow. And he is like, and everyone, and, and then he said, but I'd like you to ask you a question, you know. We're sitting here for 45 seconds and I noticed everyone in the room is anxious and you know, you, you think the meeting's falling apart.

There's some serious anxiety here. So your baseline level of how your mind functions is anxious. Now, that's, that's how you're showing up to work every day. If that's interesting to you, I'm happy to help. If not, I got things to do. Wow. And they were just like, all right. Yeah, we do. Dude, that is so awesome.

And, and this is kind of the, the point that I think that, you know, to answer your question is like, I think we, we can so easily distract ourselves with [00:18:00] everything that we never understand. That our base, at our base level, we are anxious and unfulfilled. And we are able to hide it. We, we don't really have to face that 'cause we can distract ourselves so easily.

But I think if anyone were put in a situ, most people, if they're put in a situation where they couldn't distract themselves, they would come to grips really quickly with the reality that at baseline, anxious, scared of their own thoughts. Unfulfilled. And there was a study done at UVA A with some neuroscientists.

I believe it was, it might have been psychologists. I, I don't remember at this point. It was years ago. I read this study, but it's kind of well known now. So you might have heard of this, but they, they did basically what I was talking about where they, um, they were in initially studying something else. I don't remember what it was, but they, and they kind of stumbled into this idea of like, I wonder what would happen if we just put people in a room with nothing.

And we told them that all they have to do is just sit there for 15 [00:19:00] minutes. Like that's it. Just 15 minutes. Right? And here's the, here's the interesting part of this. So they, they told the people like, Hey, you know, some people find it really hard to be alone with their thoughts for 15 minutes If you can't handle it, we had this little machine that'll give you an electric shock.

And they, they gave people a, they felt it before. It wasn't super painful, but it's an electric shock. Like this isn't something you would normally choose to do to yourself. Right. Brendan, I think it was like 55, 50 8% of the men could not go 58. Or 15 minutes without shocking themselves With electricity, it was like 38, 40% of the women.

There was one guy who shocked himself like 185 times in 15 minutes. They sent him to like some, some inpatient treatment after that. But this is there clearly something not going well with him. Right. But this is like, to your point, I think this is, we don't want to be dark, [00:20:00] but. If you don't understand that there is a problem, there's no way to fix it.

And what happens is if we're never aware that at baseline we're anxious and unfulfilled, yeah, that is bleeding into all of our professional activities. It's bleeding into all of our relationships and dramatically reducing our effectiveness at both. And if it, if that's going un without our awareness, we have no chance of even.

Of fixing it, of, of improving in those areas. So I think that's kind of the first step, which is, I think what you're getting at is we, we, we do need to recognize that like, hey, without all of, especially in the West, without all the television drinks and good food and phones and TV and all, you know, all the movies, without all that stuff, if we were to just be alone for a few hours with our thoughts, most people would be.

Pretty scared and not know what to do. And, and that shouldn't be, like, it should be the opposite. Where if you're alone [00:21:00] with your thoughts, from my experience, like if I'm on a retreat, I'm alone with my, you know, in silence for a few hours. I'm literally in heaven. Like, I mean, I, I don't know of a more, uh, wonderful mode of existence than that.

And now that's what's informing my daily activities. That's so great. Sorry, you're just constantly telling your kids to stop talking to you. You're like, guys, these are the best teachers, man. They're the best teachers, I bet. Because they, they never stop talking for actually my kids. Now they're, they're both really into reading.

So they do have some silence, uh, you know, when they're, when they're into their books, when. But yeah, it's, it's great like when you're trying to just, uh, enjoy preparing food and that you're just peppered with nonsense questions, you know, for, for 30 minutes straight. It's a wonderful training and patience and compassion.

Yeah. To get back to the freedom thing, or, I really think it's because so many people haven't even tasted it though. Like, they don't even know what that's like. They remember they were, they [00:22:00] had that piece as a kid and then just got wired to get on the rat race. And until you have to, it's so profound to feel it at least for five seconds because then you're like, okay, well if I got there once, I can get there again.

Which leads me to my next question, which is, you said it took you six months. I think sometimes the thing with mindfulness for me is like I'll drop out sometimes because it be, it feels hard. And my friend just said this thing about the moment, which was so good. She's like, it's so hard for me to live in the moment.

'cause if I feel by the time like I can even catch it, it's already gone. Mm-hmm. So how long did it take you, I know you said six months, but like what was your process to get there and then did you reach a tipping point? Absolutely. Yeah. So the process was, and I think this is, there's a couple things that I think prevent people from having the success.

I'm gonna use that in quotes. Yeah, no, you can say that. That, that they would like to have with their mindfulness practice. Or any similar form of [00:23:00] awareness practice. Um, everyone's basically doing the same thing, just different terminology. Even the non-dual people, I mean, it, it's all the same thing. Um, and I think in some ways the non-dual people have somewhat of an advantage 'cause they're really trying to get people away from identifying with the techniques or the effort to practice as the ends in and of themselves, which is very problematic.

So like, I think the, the one big issue that kind of holds people back from realizing what they could realize from the practice is that we try to do either too much or, or too little and we don't have a systematic way of gradually building habits that make it so that the practice becomes effortless.

Yeah. Which I'm gonna come back to because this is a very important point, and we'll probably go deeper on this later. I would imagine you, you'll have more questions on this, but the. You know, people think that mindfulness practice requires effort, and it does not actually, um, with a, with a caveat, there's a [00:24:00] little bit of effort to do one simple thing, which is to wake up and turn awareness toward what we think of as being ourself or ego or, you know, the thoughts in the mind.

The moment that that effort has been made, there should be no additional effort. Wow. It should be truly just allowing things to be. I. As they are. And so the, the real effort is to remember to look at thoughts and to look at where we think this self that we create with our thoughts is coming from. And that doesn't happen unless you create good habits that allow that to start that habit, to start permeating more and more moments of your day until it pervades your entire day.

So what I did and is I just kind of. Stumbled into this was, you know, I realized, okay, I have all these activities that I'm doing in a, in a day. I'm probably not gonna succeed if I try to just do all of them at [00:25:00] once. What if I just picked, for me it was two or three, I actually rec recommend for most people, just do one a week.

But I, I had nothing but time on my hands, so I did about two or three a week, but it was like, okay, this week I'm really gonna work at. Remembering to practice mindfulness, which is, that's the effort. It's remembering to try, um, during, while I brush my teeth, while I wash my hands and while I get dressed or make my bed, I don't remember what the, what the first one was.

And so I did that for a week. And then after a week, that's pretty much a habit. 'cause I, yeah, I mean there's all this argument about habits. I, I tend to agree with James. Clear it. I don't think it, there's no like. In a five years, it's a habit, or five days. It's a habit. It's a number of how many times you've repeated the activity to where it becomes unconscious, right?

And so I was doing that every time I brushed my teeth, every time I made in my bed because it had nothing better to do. So it became pretty much a habit or close to it after a week. But then. [00:26:00] Week two, I continued with those three things and I would add one or two things more. Mm. Week three, I would continue with those five or six things and con and add another two.

So, you know, after three months I was doing it during a lot of just simple activities that were, and this is what I always recommend to people. It's like, look, you have probably an hour and a half of your day that are just these simple, mundane things like brushing your teeth, washing the dishes. Dishes, yeah.

Washing your hands, preparing coffee, preparing food. It's probably an hour and a half. And if you were to just pick one of those things a week after 12 weeks, you would have 12 anchors in your day that you're practicing mindfulness. And I notice some people that might sound kind of trite, you know, like, ah, well how far can you go?

You know, just practicing while brushing your teeth and doing the dishes. I would actually argue this is ul. This is probably the ultimate paradigm shift that you can make in your life. Yes. Why? Because. There's three big things that happen. So one is the way we normally do these [00:27:00] activities, like, you know, I don't mean to pick on you Brendan, but when you're brushing your teeth, like what are you normally doing?

You're probably thinking about all types of things other than brushing your teeth, and that is actually doing three things. So one is it's probably creating a little bit of anxiety in the body and mind, which is gonna make you a little more anxious in the future, a little less effective in the future.

Two, you're reinforcing the bad habit of identifying with thought three. You're not really living that moment of your life. And I would estimate that 90 to 95% of our lives consist of simple, mundane moments like that. Nothing super painful, nothing super exciting, just walking into my car, just, you know, preparing coffee, whatever.

So we are skipping over 90% plus of our lives in our rush to a future that may never come. Yeah. And is it really that fulfilling when it gets there? If we're really honest, right. So that with this simple. I know it sounds so simple, maybe to the point of being trite, but this simple shift, all of that is [00:28:00] reversed.

Like if you gradually turn these mundane moments into practice opportunities, now all three of those things are reversed 180 degrees. Mm. In those moments, anxiety's actually going down a little bit. You're learning, you're, you're breaking the bad habit of identifying with thought. You're developing self-awareness, which is arguably the most important skill you can develop, and perhaps most important.

You're actually living that moment of your life, you're present with what you're doing, and that habit then translates into being more present with the people in your life, in your, in your life. And, and that deepens your relationships and makes life incredibly more fulfilling. So what can happen? Yeah, that sounds pretty good, bro.

Um, so what exactly are you doing in those moments? Let's take the dishes. So you're just like focusing on the fact that you're washing the dishes. Yeah, I think, I think here's the important distinction is that, you know, depending on who you read or what you've heard, people will make that the primary [00:29:00] effort is to try to focus.

Right? There's some doing happening there. Ah, okay. And what I try to help people realize is that really the core effort is you just have to recognize. Um, whether there's thinking or not. So the, the, the core move is to let go of the bad habit of identifying with thought. And that can be, there are many skillful means for doing that.

One is just using mental noting. So before you, you use, you ask about washing the dishes right Before you wash dishes. Just pause for a moment. Use your inner voice to mentally note just washing the dishes. Now, even if you're listening to this right now, you could try this right now. You could, you could just say.

Just sitting here listening to a podcast, and then the moment that voice goes silent, you'll find that you are listening to your inner voice. Yeah. Instead of being the inner voice and that my friend, you have just dropped identification with thought you've, that you've dropped identification with ego from that split second.[00:30:00] 

So now, once that, once that is done, once you've dropped the bad habit of being identified with thought. Yeah, there's nothing else to do. I mean, you, you can't not be in the moment. Like, in fact, I, I, here, here's a, a silly example. Like, let's say, you know, you're, you're sitting there, Brendan, and, and for you listeners who are sitting here, I want you to, um, just do what we just did.

So just use your inner voice to say, just sitting here, I want you to try to not notice that your body's breathing as it sits there. Do your best to not notice that it's happening. You can't do it right? I mean, it's like is if, if you're truly just sitting there not doing anything like your, your awareness is going to notice.

Whatever is prominent in awareness and sounds are prominent. The fact that your body's breathing is somewhat prominent and it's the same while washing the dishes. Now there is another skillful means, [00:31:00] which is having the attitude of just being curious. So don't, you're not trying to focus on like, what does the soap feel like or what, what do my hands feel like?

You're not making an effort to direct attention necessarily. Once you've, once you've noted, okay, I'm just washing the dishes now, just have this attitude, attitude of curiosity. Like you're a 3-year-old who's never washed dishes before, and it's kind of like what we just did where I asked you to not pay attention to your breathing when you're just curious.

There's no effort. And so because there's no mental effort, you don't reinvigorate or reignite this habit of identifying with thought, or at least you're not as likely to. So you might experience three to five seconds of just pure being without trying. It's effortless. You're just being, you're just washing the dishes and then a thought's gonna come up, and that's where you have another choice.

Do you know, do you identify with it? Or you just say, oh. You can use your inner voice to say, oh, there's some [00:32:00] thinking here. That's okay. I'm gonna allow that thought to be there just as it is. Now I'm gonna remind myself just washing the dishes. Mm. Just be curious. So you just kind of keep coming back to it.

This is where the effort is, is it's remembering every time that we get caught in thoughts or that we notice thoughts, is to learn to just see them as objects and allow them to be there exactly as they are. Oh, objects. So now you're, now you're practicing. This is what an enlightened person is doing all the time.

They're doing nothing at all. Like they're, they don't have to in, they don't have to drop identification with thought anymore because they never identify in the first place. So you can kind of, this is like you're faking it until you make it. Like when a, when a thought comes up and you recognize it, you let it be there.

You'll notice that there's this. Awareness without identification with thought. So you're, you're kind of, there's no ego in that moment. If you really see the thought clearly and it drops, [00:33:00] um, you'll notice that it kind of, this, this awakeness persists on its own. It might only be two or three seconds. It might be five or 10.

For a person with a lot of wisdom, it, it could be an hour, right? But for most people, it might just be a few seconds. And this is where the effort comes in. The effort is to say like, look, no matter how many times. I'm awake for three to five seconds and then I get distracted again. I'm identified with thought again.

My only effort should be to notice that there's thought. Allow it to be there as it is, and then just simply be curious. Try not to direct attention, try not to focus on something. Just simply be. Wow. 'cause it's the, it's the mental effort of directing attention that's actually stirring up the pot. You're, it's like that mental activity is reinforcing identification with mental activity, which just keeps you stuck in thought.

Yeah. When you said, just sitting here, I immediately felt my legs get super heavy and I was like, it's like you start becoming almost like a [00:34:00] super, you can start developing like a superhero power of awareness where you're like, whoa, I am actually here. Yeah. That's the trick that, that's the trick is you can't be anywhere else.

Like physically, you can't be anywhere, but in the moment and, and it's only through identification with thought or reinforcing identification with thought by trying to do a bunch of mental activity that you perpetually move awareness away from. The present moment. You, you know, you get trapped in thoughts of, of past or future, but your physical body is only ever existing now.

Yeah, that's, yeah. That's so cool. So if you, it's not like you have to gain something, you don't have to add something, you don't have to be a better Brendan. All you have to do is drop a bad habit. And the bad habit is identifying with thought. Because if you don't identify with thoughts, guess what they do?

They arise and they pass away. They might come back in a minute, depending if it's a real sticky thought, tied to emotion, but. It says, so it's a little bit of an oversimplification, but if you're not identified, [00:35:00] they arise and they pass away. And if that's how thoughts should exist, they arise and they pass away.

Not distracting you from this moment. So what's your inner monologue like now? Is it just a dolphin writing cloud? Like what's going on up there right now and or like a dolphin riding a class in a typical day? Like what are you thinking about? Are you always just like, it's a sweet floor, my feet are on this floor?

Yeah. I would say more and more the, the direction is, there is no, there is less and less conscious thought at all, which I noticed. Some people can sound kind of scary and it was to me because I used to think my thoughts were really. Good and important and everything. But you know, I, I think if we're really, if we're, if we really reflect, we realize, and I've reflected on this a lot actually, and I've noticed the difference between days when I'm really in like flow state and there, there just isn't an inner voice.

It's just pure activity, uh, that's [00:36:00] happening. I'm not doing it, it's just things are happening. Right. And I've noticed just how much more productive I am. Wow. And how much more, like, how quickly I solve problems. So I, I think we, we tend to think that that voice in our head is what's doing all this stuff.

From my experience, that voice in our head serves no purpose other than to learn and maybe, and maybe encode memory, like to help us learn and encode from encode memories around things that we're learning about. Other than that, it's pretty much just getting in the way all the time. So. You know, if you think about like, here's a, here's an example of how much more effective your subconscious mind is than your conscious mind.

Like, whenever you've, you're trying to remember somebody's name that you can't remember, right? Yeah. Or you're trying to remember something you've, you've forgotten you, whenever you're trying to think about it, you never get the answer do you? Like, you're in there like, what is their name? Blah, blah, blah.

You're talking to yourself. It never comes. When does the answer always come? Like the [00:37:00] moment you stop trying to get the answer right? Yeah. And if you look at like all of the best, you know, scientific discoveries, and in fact it could be all of them. I don't know. I have, I haven't researched it thoroughly enough, but I know Einstein, for instance, he would work on a problem for a while and then he would go play his violin.

And it was while he was playing with his violin that he discovered, you know, the special theory of relativity, the general theory of relativity, like all of his best ideas came to him, not when he was actively working on a problem, but while he was playing. Mm-hmm. And I, I think it's because I always like to equate, you know, things to like, I guess tools that we use all the time, but you know, we've all experienced the computer where it is just spinning, right?

Because the ram's all filled up well, you could think of the conscious mind as like being like ram. You know, and if the Ram's all filled up, then the subconscious mind, which you could think of as being like the CPU or the hard drive, which has all this power, just tremendous amount of power, it can't communicate with the software that you're using.

'cause the Ram's blocking it all up, right? [00:38:00] But when you, when that ram is empty, all of a sudden your computer functions amazingly because you can access the deep power of that hard drive in the CPU. I think our subconscious mind is a lot like that. Our subconscious mind. Has literally recorded everything you've ever experienced in your life somewhere.

I mean, it's processing, I'm told roughly 11 million bits of information per second, of which we're conscious of about 50 to 70 bits of those information. So that just gives you some indication of how weak and pathetic the conscious mind is. But we, and Einstein said it best, it's like he, he said something along the lines of, you know, we live.

And like we live in a world that, that, um, you know, puts the ma or puts the, the conscious mind, the rational mind on this huge pedestal when in reality it should be a servant. We shouldn't be servants to it, you know? And the intuition he said is infinitely more important and powerful than the rational [00:39:00] mind.

So like, where do you come down on like desires or positive affirmations? Is your vision board just a pillow? Yeah, no, I mean, like I said, I, I run a couple of small businesses, uh, small companies and, you know, we, you, you have to have goals, you know, to, to make sure everyone's, we're all aligned. We're all working on the same things, and I think everyone should have goals.

I, I think the issue is, which. I, I haven't really found anyone that takes issue with this. No one really argues with this. It's like once you have a goal, you can't just keep focusing on it all the time because then you'll never get anything done. Like you, you need to have a goal, remind yourself of it some with some frequency, right?

Yeah. But in between those reminders, you need to do stuff that like moves you in the direction of the goal, you know? So like, let's just think driving for instance, you know, if, if I want to get from point A to point B. You know, I, I could look at a map, which no one does anymore, but let's just say I'm looking at a map on my phone and I could look at the route and I could say, okay, I, I think I know how to do [00:40:00] that.

I'm gonna drive, I'm gonna be way more effective if I stop looking at the map. Stop looking at the goal on the map. Yeah. And just drive the car than if I'm trying to look at the map the whole time. I'm probably gonna get an accident if I do that. So I, I think goals are very much the same way. And I think the problem is goal like.

Goals can turn into a desire that we're attached to, and that's where the issue lies. There's nothing wrong with having a desire. There's nothing wrong with having goals. The problem is, if if we attach to them, if we're identified with them, you are going to suffer. We are going to suffer. It's guaranteed whether it goes our way or not.

Here's why. Let, let's just use like having food for instance. You know, let, let's say, what's your favorite food, Brendan? Um, I really like a nice hamburger. Okay, so let's say, you know, we're having this nice chat and then I know the idea of having a hamburger comes up, you know, and just coming back to comparative thinking.

Now all of a sudden this conversation isn't as cool as it used to be. 'cause you're like, man, [00:41:00] I could be talking with this dude. Or I could be having a nice juicy hamburger, you know, with some bacon on it. Like, I think I'd rather do that now all of a sudden, what was an enjoyable moment for you? I hope talking with me.

Is now not so much so right, because that now I'm an obstacle to you getting something that you really want, which is your burger. Mm. So the problem is whether you get it or not, you're screwed because when you get the burger, how long are you happy with it for? Right? 30 minutes maybe. And then you're like, okay, that didn't do much for me.

And you know, if you really wanna take it to extreme, let's say I gave you a burger. How much would you like that he'd be like, man, this is great. And I said, okay, Brendan, here's another fork. Eat those. Now, how happy are you with burgers? Now you're like, man, I think I'm done. And I sort of Great, here have another 10 burgers.

Now you're throwing up. So what was like something that you had a ton of desire for is now making you sick? Like you probably wouldn't want to eat a burger for a month after that. So the, the idea is the fulfillment, the, the, we don't get [00:42:00] satisfaction from gratifying. A desire. We get gratification. And it's gratification is very short-lived.

And the problem with it is that. If we try to realize happiness only through gratifying desires, then we set ourselves up the, the brain is extremely habitual. Yes. So if the habit is I get my burger, then I'm happy, then I'm not, because I don't have a burger. Now, dopamine kicks in and says, go find something else external to you to give you happiness.

And so your, your brain chemistry is propelling you, compelling you to always be searching for something in the future to make you happy. And that habit will never end until you learn to be happy with what you have in this moment. Mm. So that's, even if you get it, like I said, you're screwed. And then if you don't get it, obviously, you know, that could, for many people, that can be disruptive, right?

So the trick is all you need to do to be free from this whole drama. Is what we just talked about a [00:43:00] moment ago is just recognize that there is a desire there. Allow it to be there and then while you're allowing it to be there, you could, you could use some discernment. Is this something worth acting on or not?

If it is, great, maybe jot down some notes. How are you gonna execute a plan to, to achieve that goal? Right? If it's not skillful, then you just re allow your awareness to remain open. You're curious and you let that desire be there. As long as it's gonna be, eventually it fades and you're good. And you'll notice that like if you get down into the details of this, the suffering starts the moment that you identify with the desire instead of just recognizing that it's there.

'cause the moment you identify, you'll notice there's some tension in the body, some tension in the mind. That doesn't get released until you gratify that desire or until you learn to see the the desire objectively. And I would argue that the better path is to learn to train, to see desires, both [00:44:00] as thoughts and as how they manifest in the body, as objects, because then you have the choice.

People who are identified with the desires, they don't have a choice. They have to follow the craving until it's gratified. If you train the mind to see desires objectively, now you have a choice. If a goal is skillful or a desire is skillful, you have a plan for achieving it. If not, you let it come and go, and you don't suffer either way because if you, if you don't achieve it.

It has no impact on your happiness 'cause you're already happy right now. Yeah. You keep saying desires as objects. Are you actually seeing thing like thoughts as an actual object? Like what? Like a thing, is it like a picnic basket? What are these objects? What, what are these objects? Yeah, it's, uh, you, you can actually see mental images as objects, right?

So, you know, you, you, you can see mental images almost as though you're watching images on a screen if you really pay attention to your mind. I think the real stickler though, most of us do that pretty easily. I. The real sticky one for most [00:45:00] people is that inner voice. Like we think that that inner voice in there talking all the time, that's me.

A hundred percent. And it's clearly not. I mean, yeah, like you could just use a simple thought experiment, you know? Like I'm sure you've, you've said, and if you're a listener, I'm sure we've all said this. I know I've, I've said it hundreds of times probably in my life, but, you know, you, you say something in your mind like, I'm so pissed off at you.

I can't believe you did that. And so now the question is, well, which one's you? Is it, is it the, is it the one, is it the voice that's pissed off at the you that did something? Or is it the one that did something that's receiving the, you know, the anger in spite from this other voice? Uh, so it creates this obvious, logical dilemma that I.

They can't both be you, right? One one of them's you. The answer is neither of them are you. Right? And this becomes clear, like if you practice mindfulness, and I think this is the true gift of taking time to sit still, is you start to recognize that you exist just fine, even when there's no inner [00:46:00] voice, complete silence and no mental images, even when there's just pure being you exist.

And not only do you exist, but most people describe it as the most peaceful. Existence they've ever realized. Yeah. And so like, just imagine, you know, you're, you're sitting still and a thought comes up about having your burger and then you observe that thought you, or maybe it's an inner voice, right? Your, your inner voice says, man, I love burgers.

I can't wait for Matt to shut up so that I can go have a burger. You hear that voice and then it goes silent. So now here's like, maybe a deeper look into this. I would just pose the question to you. Were you not there? Before that thought arose existing in some way, were you not there? While the inner voice was saying, I can't wait for Matt to shut up so I can go have a burger, and were you not there?

Once that thought ceased and your voice, there was no inner voice and your mind was silent again, were you there experiencing? Yeah. Yeah. So the thought, your inner [00:47:00] voice is clearly not you, but we don't operate from that most of the time. The idea is when I'm saying seeing or hearing thoughts objectively, it's not so much that you're, you know, like you take a thought.

That's a, doesn't really exist as far as we can tell outside of our own brains. Um, you know, turning it into something tangible. It's more of, instead of feeling as though that is me in there talking, you hear the inner voice as literally as though it's your cell phone, you know, replaying you a voicemail.

You hear it with that level of objectivity. That's cool. That's a good image. I really, yeah, I really, I really like that. I feel like this podcast has been sponsored by five guys at this point. Everyone's like, I think I should go get a burger. Aren't, wait a second, you're in Cali, man. You need to go to Inn Out.

Oh yeah. It's an Inn Out. I'm like, wait a minute. Everyone's like, okay, I think we need to. All right, man. Well, this has been so awesome. So I like to close by playing a game. It's called Spiritual or Asshole, where I say some things you tell me if it's spiritual [00:48:00] or asshole. Are you down? Sure. Okay. Spiritual or asshole trust fall at a workplace retreat where you get to drop the person and say, Hey, this is Facebook.

You should never trust us.

That sounds like a pretty jerk thing to do. For the sake of, uh, my kids potentially listening to this, I'm, I'm gonna use jerk and replace you. You could say, you could say, jerk. That's cool, man. Okay. All right. Spiritual or jerk being super in the moment and present at places you don't want to be. Like the ballet.

And then being like, maybe I should be less mindful and take my mind somewhere else. I don't think there's anything jerk about that. That doesn't hurt anybody else. So we can call that spiritual, although I'm not sure that that's skillful spiritual or jerk joining the military. Not because you care about serving, but you just really wanna learn how to fold clothes properly.

That my friend is both spiritual and jerk. Yeah. Okay. Spiritual or jerk saying anxiety is a superpower and then [00:49:00] crowning your mother a superhero. That's spiritual and jerk. Okay. Spiritual or a jerk. Anxiety release. Activities like going for a run, screaming in a pillow and invading a hostile foreign power.

Well invading a hostile foreign power. Hmm. That kind of, that kind of muddies the whole thing. So I think you have to go spiritual, spiritual jerk in those. Okay. Great. All right, man. Last question I ask everybody. If you could tell people one thing to tell themselves all day long, what would it be?

One thing to tell themselves all day long, um, to use the inner voice to just simply tell yourself. Just let things be exactly as they are. Mm. That's great, man. I love this. Well, this has been very great, very pleasant. I've really enjoyed this. Can you tell people where they can find you? Well, [00:50:00] at the moment I'm in my office here in Nashville, Tennessee.

If you wanna, if you're in Nashville, you can just come say hi, come over. But I'm, I'm pretty Googleable. It's Matt Tenney. Uh, there, there's a website, Matt Tenney. It's M-A-T-T-T-E-N-N-E y.com. And I've written a, a few books, so, um, pretty easy to find on the, on the web, whether it's LinkedIn or my website or through the books.

All right. Well this has been awesome, man. Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. This has been really fun. Thanks, Brendan.