How to Keep Going When You Want to Quit | Haritha Naurunna, Founder of Rivertune Games

Nobody told Haritha Naurunna he was allowed to build a game studio. He just started building.

He graduated with a computer science degree in Sri Lanka at a time when the games industry had made big promises and kept almost none of them. The jobs weren't there. The infrastructure wasn't there. Nobody was going to hand him the career he'd been told was possible. So he gave himself a job instead.

Four months ago, Rivertune Games was one person. Today it's six — four developers, two artists, a funded game in active development, and a studio that just showed work at Sri Lanka Comic Con and Disrupt Asia. Haritha is twenty-four years old and moving too fast to process any of it.

This conversation goes deeper than the startup story. Haritha talks about what actually keeps a creative person going when every reason to stop makes complete sense — and it's not passion or discipline. It's five people who don't have a job if you do. It's a father who kept taking calls for his employees from an ICU bed. It's the specific relief of staying in motion so fast you don't have time to overthink.

He burnt out. He almost left game development entirely. What brought him back was his own Goose Game — a dating simulator where you play as a goose, made at nineteen, made for nobody but himself — and the reminder that no one was stopping him from making exactly what he wanted to make.

In this episode:

• How to keep going as a creative entrepreneur when the industry doesn't have a place for you
• What it really means to give yourself a job when no one else will
• How Haritha grew Rivertune Games from one person to six in four months
• The burnout that almost ended his career — and what pulled him back
• What his father's death taught him about responsibility, legacy, and not stopping
• Why good and bad are subjective — and what the real standard for creative work actually is
• How to find your passion: the only answer that actually works
• Building a support system as a young founder who is hard on himself

This episode is for the creative person who is in the hardest part of their journey right now — the part where quitting makes complete sense. Haritha is twenty-four and he has already figured out something it takes most people decades to learn: nothing is stopping you. That's not a pep talk. It's just the truth.

🎙️ Host: Sheran Ranasinghe 🎨 Guest: Haritha Naurunna — Founder, Rivertune Games | @rivertune.games 📍 Recorded at: Hatchworks, Colombo, Sri Lanka 📩 Contact: thecreativeodysseypodcast@gmail.com 📸 Instagram: @thecreativeodysseypodcast | @sheranstories Produced by Odyssey House Media

Keywords: Haritha Naurunna, Rivertune Games, The Creative Odyssey Podcast, Sheran Ranasinghe, Odyssey House Media, how to keep going when you want to quit, indie game developer Sri Lanka, creative entrepreneur giving yourself a job, game studio founder, how to start a game studio with no money, burnout recovery, creative entrepreneurship, Sri Lanka startup, finding your passion, self belief, game development podcast, creativity podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Screw the job marker, I'll just make I just give myself a job instead. Even at times when I don't believe in myself, I I tell myself, no no, I have people who rely on me. I have like five other guys who work for me, and if I say I'm done, they're done. When my dad was in the hospital in the ICU, uh the nurses had to physically pry the phone from his phone from his hands because he was more concerned about his employees than his own health. And he kept his word, right? Until his quite literally dying breath. He had that he had people relied on him and he didn't have the option to stop. And for me, it's like you know what? I don't have the option to stop right now and I'm not gonna stop. I don't want to stop because no matter how many people say don't do it, screw you, I'm gonna do it. Because again, no one's stopping me from making a visual novel where you date humans but you're a goose instead. This is the first game we made by the game. A dating simulator where you play by you where you're a goose. And a very annoying and rude one at that. Artists can draw whatever they please and like one can stop them, they can draw it. And the fact that they can do it is what motivates them and it keeps that key thing going.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Hi, welcome to Creative Policy Podcast. My name is Sharan and today we are recording at Hatchworks in Sri Lanka. It's a startup hub where creativity and technology go hand in hand. I have a really cool guest here who kind of started over here and um has an amazing story and what he does. So Harita, welcome uh to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Absolutely. Um so, real quick, let's start with um who Harita is.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

So Harita is Harita. I he's okay. I'm gonna refer to myself in the third person very often because for some reason that tends to work for me. I don't know why. Let's go for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Let's go for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Uh I've been like I was born to a family of engineers. Okay. Engineer. Like dad Sable and my mum uh production. And since we were this since as long as as long as I can remember, uh, we've been surrounded with stuff being built.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

So my like so when we were small, instead of having like normal toys, I can vaguely remember like uh us playing with acrojacks from my dad's construction side and my mum being like, hey, put it down. But my bad is like, that's okay, it's cool, it's cool.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Tell me what acrojack afrojacks is.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

So if I if I I am I might be mislabeling, but it's one of those jacks you used to actually connect two steel GI pipes. So when you have scaffoldings, you have like one pipe, one pipe, and you connect them with an acrojacket. I had no idea that was a so they're hella expensive now, but back then they were really cheap. Back in the early 2000s, I think. But my earliest memories were playing with those, and I think growing up, I had a we had a very a very unique playground where most kids would play with a small in a small sandbox or their backyard, but no, we had massive piles of sand at my dad's construction site and massive piles of stones that were gonna be used in like what concrete, right? So I think for me, at least like growing up, uh knowing that like what um stuff could be built if you just thought about it and sat down and just got to work. Because uh with my dad, I well like I remember him what uh waking up in the morning, going downstairs to his office uh with his morning tea and just opening up AutoCAD and just designing.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

No way.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Right? And what a couple months later, like a couple months later, yeah, like I would wagely remember, ah, okay, I saw a piece of paper on his desk that had this particular design, and huh it's a lot bigger than I thought it was. So for me, like when like for me being surrounded in like the engine with engineering, it's been very obvious, like you think about something, you build it. It's it's it's quite literally that. So uh when I got old enough to start considering what parts I wanted to go down, I got into tech initially uh computer science, and uh I started university back in 2018, and back then we were being promised the moon, the stars, and the whole universe saying, like you can get into game dev by came time for graduation. I was like wear jobs. Right? So um at the time, just like right before the pandemic hit, I got my first internship working at Motion Miracles. Uh really fun studio. And I mean you know, it was a really great environment to be at because it was run by uh Startup founder. He was I think 21, 23 at the time, so fairly young. So that kind of put me in front of, well, one so many other developers who were like me, who were promised them Sun, the Moon, and the stars, saying you could get you can get into the games industry, but there were practically no jobs. So every day coming into the studio was like, okay, so we're gonna have to figure out how what we're gonna do, how we're gonna do things. And my biggest exposure to the games industry was when uh I was put uh put on a brand new team they were building called the publishing team. So we had to reach out to publish, like mobile game publishers, uh figure out how the industry works, what ideas um would work in the market, and we and I think uh throughout my one year at Motion Miracles, we ended up publishing like close to like 20, 25 games, I think, with the department. And we ended up working with some of the largest publishers in the world. Uh Supersonic was um there was a team we had to deal with. Uh they recent not recently, a couple years back, got bought by Unity, one of the largest game engine game tech companies in the world now. But uh early on I got the opportunity to work with some of the some of the coolest pe some of the coolest people in the country and uh tech-wise I think that put me on put like made me realize, ah okay, you know what? Uh screw the job market, I'll just make I'll just give myself a job instead. Wow. So I think with after graduating, I've more or less been working freelance, basically finding the make basically creating my own job. So one of those, fine, I'll do it myself more than So now where like so now uh over this pa this over the past four months actually, uh the studio has gone from like a he him to a they them. Where like that it was what like where I was the only developer taking projects, working on stuff um in March of this year. And then come April, uh like come April, one of my clients was like, hey, we've been working for the past year together, how about we get more people on board? And then obviously like and then obviously like that, you know, we're getting paid fairly decently as a freelancer. And then I was like, hmm, but the but then the but then my freelance paycheck wasn't enough to like what do you call it, facilitate a team.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

And this particular client was like, you know, don't worry about it, Habibi. Let me let me let me help you out here. And then we ended up changing the contract and whatnot, and uh his contract ended up becoming a situation where he'd where he'd fund a team of like three developers, four and yeah, so up until December. So that project is going fairly well. And then with that, it kind of inspired me to say, you know what, I can go broke. I'm 24, I can like I can I can afford to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

No way, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

I I told myself I can afford to go bankrupt, I can still like I I can still I I can still make that money back. It's like YOLO, why not? Let's just get more people on. So uh that so the one person who was there in March has now become a team of six now, so we have four developers, two artists, and we uh I mean thriving because yesterday actually, I got off a call with an investor, and we have secured one of like the first round of funding for one of our games. Obviously, it's not enough to cover the whole development, but it's enough for us to fund the game without having to worry about cash at all whatsoever for the next year or so.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Okay, that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

And then that can be turned around with the two that can be turned out to get more people on board, and I think congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

That's so good.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

I I'm I I I still have to pinch myself every once in a while to like be like, ah, so what five, six months ago, I could not have imagined this being possible at all.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

We're so excited to share with you all the episodes that we filmed in Sri Lanka. We know a lot of you have been waiting, but we wanted to make sure that we did this really meaningfully because it really was an exciting time. When John first came to me and said he was gonna take the podcast to Sri Lanka, I honestly thought he was crazy.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

And so did I. I was like, is there any possibility we can fit this in? I want to try to bring the podcast in and get to know people and interview creators.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

So we expected to have just a few conversations, maybe a little sparks of inspiration here and there, but what happened was so much deeper than that. We met so many people that not only you got to interview, but that also like came alongside us to help make these conversations happen.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

The crazy thing was this daring idea of going to a country, even though I'm from Sri Lanka. I hadn't been back for like seven years, and all I knew was some people from school that I went to and some social media that I've been following, but didn't really have a concrete plan to make it happen. And some days we had six, seven episodes back-to-back recorded because people were waiting and you were kind of facilitating that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah, so it felt really significant because not only was it that we were having like these raw and authentic conversations, but a lot of their stories resonated with Trons. And so it just was really fascinating to see them speaking the same language and to see like just this commonality of creativity and identity and purpose coming out as the themes of these conversations.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

You must be wondering when this trip happened. It happened in September, and uh the goal was to get these episodes out by December of last year. Well, a lot of things happened, and I didn't want to diminish the work we put in and again the amazing gifts that we had. So we decided to do something really cool, and we're gonna like post however many we can a week.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

So, LinkedIn, every single episode you'll find a free PDF. It's actually a magazine that we developed. You can kind of think of it like if you go to a concert and you get like the souvenir of what happened behind the scenes and just about the different artists and all those things. We wanted to share with you not only about Tron's journey, but then help you connect with some of the guests that we interview in Sri Lanka and then invite you on your own creative Odyssey.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Yes, there's so much more that goes into or that fuels this podcast, which is this this mission to inspire people to create so that they can get to know themselves and connect with their inhabitants. So to see that we could bring that story out of Sri Lankan creatives out of Daiwa's range of creatives was definitely a highlight.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Our hope is that whether you're living in the States, you're living in Sri Lanka, or somewhere else around the world, you'll connect with someone's story within Sri Lanka and it might inspire you to continue on your own creative thought, I see.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

The link to the PDF for the magazine is in the description, and please check it out. They're doing really cool things that I really think you should be checking out to see their journeys. So without further ado, let's get to the episode. Wow, so you haven't had a chance to process all of this.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Well, if it's been like one event after another after another. So, like we did yeah, we should show off our game at Comic-Con um a couple of weeks back, and we are showing up at Disrupt Asia like this week.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

And again, we are showing up again at uh Comic Expo in December. And on top of that, it's like uh on on top on top of like managing the projects, managing the team, hiring stuff, doing all the boring papers that comes and coming. Like, I have had not never had time to sit down and process what's happening, and I don't think I want to because the moment I do, know you want I'm going to overthink it. So it's like you know, it's okay. We don't need time to think. Just just go on autopilot because it worked so far. I do not want if if something happens, we figured out what to do at that point.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

I can hear the panic in your work.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Like honestly, I just haven't thought about it.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

And but I think in my position, like for me, I have been incredibly lucky to be to be around the people I've been with, because a lot of my developers they are from the university I studied at um IIT. So shout out to IIT if anyone is there. I mean IIT.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Very cool. But yeah. So um you talked about like connecting with the right people and and and talk me through that process.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

You mentioned your first job and so it is actually a very interesting situation because in Sri Lanka we have I mean it's like our government at least. We don't really have the culture that supports game dev, right? Saying this when I told my parents, hey mom that I want to get into game dev. They're like Atlantis are getting a computer science degree, so even if it doesn't work out, you can get into software. I was like, I'm not getting into software, I'm sorry. Wow. But really it's about reaching out to people because like I can't give a exact blueprint as to like how you meet people. It's it just happens, right? Um if you go fishing, you're gonna meet other fishermen. It's it's it's just that once you start walking down the path of a game development saying, hey, this is what I'm gonna do. And so long as you don't turn back, like you will meet people who share the same vision or the share, same goals you do. And I think um one large issue with the country here again, again, not to rag on the country, I love my country, not the government. But it's just that people are going to hate on you no matter what you do. You do software, people like, ah, they take US, they take white people's money, build stuff. Or if you get into music, ah he wants to be a starting artist, right? Stuff, that's fine. As long as you as long as you get to do what you want and you aren't risking your livelihood, go for it. Because at the end of the day, peep like people are gonna talk behind your back no matter what. Gonna happen. So I just want like you know, if if if people are gonna talk behind your back, let them like real look. They're the they'll be the ones left talking when you're ahead, like they're ahead of you, when you're ahead of them. So that's quite actually why they talk behind your back, because they're a function.

unknown 14:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

So it's so funny, I didn't think about it. That's so stupid. That's so stupid. I think it's also like not just Sri Lanka. I mean, even in living in America too, you get that too. And I think it's it's like you said, surrounding yourself with the right people, right? Not everybody can understand uh a visionary person, a creative person, because we are considered the misfits, right, of society or whatever, and that needs to change. And you have to think of it like we are actually the visionaries, we are the ones who want to solve problems and build things, and the other ones all the all they want to do is follow the same system.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

I mean, at some point people call Steve Jobs a hipster yuppie. And like if if being a hipster yuppie can let you create the company, that is like that that's one of the only worst worst only trillion dollar companies. Like, you know what? I'm glad it'll be the hits hipster yuppie. Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

So in that case have you ever thought about like change in the narrative of how people see creatives like yourself?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

That that's an interesting question because uh I just found that like if you ignore the people who don't care about your cafe, you end up finding the right people and then automatic and when you have the right people, like it'll start off with one person, but then the one person becomes two, then two becomes four. And like at some point, people who what like who like who don't believe in you end up becoming the minority. So really it's just like ignoring everyone else.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Take the time to get like allow people to take the time to get to know you.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

It's as long as you believe in yourself. I mean as as um cliche as it sounds, right? But if you want to take a shot on yourself, I mean no one else will.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Are you somebody who always believes in yourself?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

At times no, but then I also remember I put myself in a position where if I don't believe in myself, my staff, my team is not gonna have a job the next day. So it's like, you know what? It's like you even at times when I don't believe in myself, I I tell myself, no, no, I have people who rely on me. I have like five other guys who work for me, and if I say I'm done, they're done. That's five people who like five people who like sync with me, and I'm not gonna start to sync with me. Uh my dad, for example. Uh civil engineering big field. But even then, like he had close to like he had like 10 or so main contractors, but under them, they had like 20, 30 people, right? So when my dad eventually passed away in 2021, right? I'm sorry, uh, wait, thank you. But when he passed away, those contractors end up losing projects that could have that that could have helped them go on, like helped them feed their families, right? So for me, it's like you can hate your job as much as you want. You might doubt it and doubt yourself as much as you want, but when you have other people on the board with you, you don't have the option of saying no. You it and and that is one thing that I think a lot of people tend to ignore or like ignore when they say I'm gonna be a startup founder, they don't realize how much responsibility comes in. And it is terrifying. There are nightfight this like these stadium is like, huh, so I'm in a very, very deep hole. So I like either you they gotta keep mining till we get done till we can get gold, or you let people know so that they can get off early before they think with you, right? But you have like a certain responsibility to people, and I think um Barnut High Channel, I believe he like I saw a podcast that he did quite some time ago where he said that he wants to put himself in positions where he can't turn back. And the same goes for my dad, because like when you did a construction project and a client pays you 15 million out of the 30 as opposed to like about the out of the 40 to 50 that it cost him as a project, you've taken a 50 mil. You are in no position to say, oh, I can't do this anymore. It's either like you do, like either you do it, or you get sued in, or you get sued until you have no pants. Right. Right? So really it's just like getting on the horse and staying staying on the horse as long as possible to make sure either you can get the other people on with like with you off, where you can safely fall and get hurt or whatever it is you can do. But again, it's how to put it. I don't know how to convene my point here, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

So let's say you had no employees, let's say nobody's relying on you, and just I mean you were there before. What is the passion that drives you?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Honestly, it's the it's the fact that I can it's the fact that I can do whatever I please. Right when it comes to the way when it comes to like what working by yourself, it's like you have nobody telling you what to do and no stakes. You have absolutely nothing driving you, right? So the fact that there is absolutely nothing stopping you and there's absolutely nothing for forcing you to start is what like kind of makes me get super excited about this, because it's like no one's like no one's stopping me from making uh visual novel where you date humans but you're a goose instead. And so the first game we made, by the way. A dating simulator where you play by you where you're a goose. And a very annoying and rude one at that. But the but the fact is there's no one stopping you from doing things, right? So it's like you know what, if you want to be annoying as as annoying as it can be, do it. I mean nothing's stopping you, and that's the that's the duty behind it, right? The fact that you have are such infinite possibilities. It's it's it's as much it if as long as your hands can do something, let the hands then let the hands do that.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

So as a game developer, um the storyline is really important.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Um is this something you are good at? Like uh that naturally or is something you have to learn to be good at?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Um okay, so here's a th here's a tricky question. Here's a tricky thing about that, right? There is not a single thing in the world that defines something as good or bad. And is in terms of narrative. I can see the twilight movies to be pretty bad. I did not like Twilight. But it is one of but it's one of the largest fandoms out there. A lot of people don't like my little pony, but one of the largest fandoms out there, right? So no one can tell you what is good or bad. If you make something and there's another person who likes it, it's good to them. And if it's good to you, it's good. So again, dating simulated by price of goose. It it didn't gain too much traction. Uh I thought it was good. I had fun making it. I got the opportunity to work with some of my friends who were in Aussie and I got to connect with them, right? And for me, that's what made it good.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Collaboration.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Collaboration just it's just just the fact that I enjoyed making it. And in general, like when you have a creator who is what do you call it, just passionate about their work, you will find people who will just follow them just for that passion. Um, the Odyssey, for example. Uh Is considered the co one of the cornerstones of modern storytelling, right? We had a creator recently uh who made Epic the musical that retold the Odyssey as a in a musical format. Some like people are gonna call it like, oh, that's just stuff that killer kids are like. Let the care kids like it. It is it is why like um as each saga released, it like each saga kept chop they kept topping the apple charts, right? People liked it. And like people are gonna say, oh, there are certain things they don't like about it. They made on it. It's good, it's good to the people, it matters too, right? And when something matters a lot, it becomes it becomes good in like in the in the general sense. Romeo and Juliet, really weird story. Yeah, I mean like uh what the Julius is like 14, Roman's like 18, like you like you look at them be like, hmm, but like we are but we're trying to re-enact something that Minecraft YouTubers do. We don't want to do that, right? But it was so popular back in the day that that has become a cornerstone of modern literature, right? So good is subjective, bad is subjective. As long as you have someone who likes it, it's and it's good to them, it's like you know what? That's that's just that's just how it works.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

So, how do people figure out what they're passionate about, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Honestly, see, it's like like some people always like ah, I like drawing, but how do you know you like drawing? Because I drew. And how do you know if it if I don't like drawing? How do you know you don't like drawing? Because you drew. So for you to find out what you're passionate about, you have to do things. I mean, which is what annoys me, because people are afraid to explore things. If you're passionate about, I don't know, the different varieties of grapes.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Why are people afraid to do try things?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Other people's opinions. Which is where which is why I keep telling people ignore everybody else, just do it. Like what? It doesn't matter if you are the only person who is really passionate about a very particular variety of green grape. Be passionate about it.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

But that's a hard thing to do in a culture like this, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

I mean, it's a it's at that point I just ignore everyone. Like, I mean, people are gonna talk behind your back. They have a reason they're behind you.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

That's true. So just forget about all of them.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

I mean, because I so many people look at me and be like, oh, you make like when they say I make games, like, oh, you play games all day. Should tell yourself that I like at the end of the day, I have a studio with people, I get to work, I get to wake up with, hop on and hop on the morning meetings, check with guys, like how are you guys doing, and have fun while working. That like you look at most people who are in that, like who are doing a career, they hate their jobs. Yes, it's like why do you hate it? Just do what you want to do. Like, like like when you like we say it was like ours and money. Think about how much money do you really need? Because I mean I take basically no pay at this point, but it's fine. I get to I get I at least I don't hate myself when I hate myself when I work, and I'd rather be broke and and and and be able to do what I want than to well be I hate every living second of my work.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Yeah. So what's the what's the end goal for Rita?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

So that's actually the interesting question here, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Because I know you're only 24 years old, and it's a big question to ask, but like, what's the goal?

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Like for me, like I like apart from game dev, I have so many other passions because I love education and I love civil engineering in the environment. Which is why I started the second bachelor's recently. My ultimate goal there.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

While you're doing all of this, you started the second bachelor's.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Because I can. Because I can get an adultery, right? That's no one stopping me. If I can go to a university, hand them a check that says here, here is here is my semester's my fee for this semester. And they got paid. Right. I just don't show up and pass my exams. And that's the beauty of it. Like you, as a human, can do whatever you please.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Are you telling me that you have zero limiting beliefs?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

I mean, I believe in myself, right? As long as I believe in myself, that I don't know. You're done. You have no I mean it's like you've never had limiting beliefs? I mean, I there have been times, right? How did you overcome those to come to this point? Something, okay, again, this is like again, this is where like my dad comes in because he has been a big uh motivating factor for me. Because he was a kid in Kalutara and he came up in the world by becoming a civil engineer, and under him he had like not directly, but he had close to like a hundred people working under him at some point, bringing in a lot of cash and having people essentially feed their families and take care take care of themselves, right? If someone if like if if a if a random kid from Khaltra could do it, nothing stopping me. You know, nothing is stopping me. And if there's anything stopping me, it'll be myself and then I and then look around and be like, Shush, they're doing this. Because they like it or not. It's happening and really it's just telling yourself like it's not over until you die. I mean again, morbid fat, but uh when my dad was in the hospital in the ICU, uh the nurses had to physically pry the phone from his phone from his hands because he was more concerned about his employees than his own health. Because um he had to like before he passed, he had to be uh put in, he had to put it be put in the medical illness coma. But until that point, he was taking phone calls, talking to clients, telling people, don't worry about your jobs, even though I'm in the hospital, you're gonna be taken care of. And he kept his word, right? Until his quite literally dying breath, he had like he had people relied on him and he didn't have the option to stop. And for me, it's like, you know what? I don't have the option to stop right now, and I'm not gonna stop. I don't want to stop because no one's telling and no matter people, no matter how many people say don't do it, screw you, I'm gonna do it. Because I can.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Is burnout even a thought in your life?

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Burnout is a thought, and I think um after one particular job, I'm not gonna mention them shows like you know, cool situation. But I was burnt out for months where I considered leading the games industry and actually going to web depth and like full stack because that was another uh area I was like really interested in. But then it but then it was that particular goose game where that no no I love it, that's amazing. Oh no, I can do this, don't stop me. It's like artists can draw whatever they please and like one can stop them, they can draw it, and the fact that they can do it is what motivates them and they keep that keeping going, right? So again, it's just like I can do whatever I whatever I want as long as I put my mind to it. People will say, Oh, there are no opportunities in the country. Yes, there are, you just aren't looking hard enough. If there are no opportunities, make your opportunities. I didn't have a job, gave myself a title, got myself clients, got myself a team. If that's some again, which which circles back to like my thing my original philosophy, you can make whatever you please. Just you know, just do it.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Man, for a 24-year-old, you're not like a you you sound like you're at peace.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Low key, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Low key, no?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

I mean, I would be a little I I would be a little troubled if I died today because I know, hmm, I didn't get to finish the game watching. So I'd be a little bit pissed about that and probably come back come back down from heaven. Oh well!

SPEAKER_02 29:28

I mean like Yeah, wherever you go.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I'd want to come back and like you know, finish what you finished the goose dating game.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

It was wild. 19-year-old husbands. 20-year-old husbands like very was a very interesting person.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Yeah, how how much have you changed since then?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Uh I think my mentality has shifted a lot from like focusing on myself and focusing on others where I can be a massive perfectionist. Uh so fun fact with Comic Con, right? Uh, the build you were showcasing. We were working on that build, me and my like me and my two other developers, we were working on it until like uh 4am in the morning off on the day off. And it was just one of the situations where like um I am fairly hard on myself. And sometimes like people will be like, no, it's good, it's good. You are just not being like you're being too hard on yourself. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Do you think that's sustainable? That kind of thinking, being hard on yourself?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Um if I'm not hard on myself, then no, like no one else is gonna be. And if I'm not like if I'm hard on myself.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Is it a hard on yourself in a positive way or hard on yourself in a negative way?

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Both, actually. Because like sometimes I know, like, okay, I don't like how that feature was implemented. Let's go back and work and then let us like refine it further before take to the take it to the meeting with the client. So they'd be happy, I'd be happy. But then also it's like there's that's again like Comic Fon, for example, certain times where I shouldn't be keeping people up till 4 in the morning on the day off. Right? So it's both good and bad, and and w when it's good, like you know, everyone will applaud. But when it's bad, you need someone to smack you upside, they'd be like, no, that's good enough. So again, that's why like it's that's why you need your people. And again, it's it's it's about building a support system.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Alright, the man, you you've been a breath of fresh air for sure, and uh one of the most smartest 24 euros I've met at least.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Uh you have fresh, you should talk to my sister. I did actually so much smarter than I am.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

I in the sense that like uh how you have come into a mental space where you are you have a lot of freedom to create and that kind of thing. That it that in itself is remarkable. It took me until I was 30 years old to get to that point. So I'm just being blown away by the people I've been interviewing. Uh thank you so much for being on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Until next time, keep creating, keep dreaming, and keep going on your own creative artisty. Till next time, see you later.

unknown 32:09

Thank you.