Episode 14 – Residents Aren’t as Engaged as You Think, with Luke Norris

In this episode, I sit down with my longtime friend and fellow civic innovator, Luke Norris—Vice President of Platform Strategy and Digital Transformation at Granicus, and one of the most forward-thinking voices in government technology.

Luke’s career has been dedicated to helping cities rethink how they use technology to serve people. We talk about the intersection of data, storytelling, and trust in government—and why investing in people matters just as much as investing in tools.

Luke also opens up about how being a “girl dad” has shaped his leadership style and his passion for championing women in tech and public service.

This episode is about modernizing government in human terms—rethinking civic engagement, rebuilding trust, and reminding us all why innovation in the public sector isn’t just possible, it’s essential.

Thank you for listening! If you liked this episode, please give us a 5-star rating.
Listen to every episode on:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify
• Amazon Music 

Stay in touch with us:

• Ohhicommunications.com
• Linkedin
• Instagram
• YouTube

About Dana
Dana Berchman is an award-winning expert in marketing and communications with a gift for leading teams, connecting people, and telling the human story.  An experienced innovator, public speaker and media professional, Dana is a proven expert at developing communication strategies, maximizing reach, creating digital roadmaps for cities and organizations, and delivering data-driven results with heart.  

Transcript

[00:00:00] Well, I'm really excited to have this conversation with one of my favorite people, friend, colleague Luke. Thank you so much for joining me today on this podcast. We've been talking about having this conversation for a very Long time. so I'm really glad we made this happen. I. 

Thank you for having me. Of course.

I was thinking about when our paths may have first crossed, and I think it was over, I know it was over a decade ago I had come into the government space for the first time, really from the private sector, and I know you were, working, trying to help modernize the way that, governments interact with their residents and customers.

And I was trying to remember, I think it might have been at a conference way back where we ran into each other at the, for the first time and realized we, we had so much in common as far as our insights in this space, Ann. There are unfortunately still [00:01:00] so few innovators, I think in the government space and the public sector specifically.

And so we're, we're kind of a small knit community. We band together and sometimes we wanna bang our heads against the wall but what's really cool is I think you're one of the people that has Stayed in this industry and stayed focused and seen the opportunity for continued innovation in the government space.

So, Thank you for coming and having this conversation and obviously for the work that you do. And tell me a little bit about that. what led you to where you are today at Granicus and your career path, and why you're so passionate about this work. How I know you are so passionate. 

Yeah. Wow. Such a, like a long story. So to, to try to make it, short. In my role at Granny Case, I lead a team that's responsible for helping our customers ultimately think about technology and people and process investments can help them deliver better services. Better engage their communities and ultimately drive operational efficiency. So the three hallmarks of, good government if you will. I [00:02:00] came to Granite by way of an acquisition, a firm called Open Cities that I had an opportunity to help grow and build here in the us. They were actually from Australia. And the way that I originally got connected with them is when I was back at Code for America, we started to go down the path of helping local governments build better websites and digital services. And actually went so far as getting about two and a half million dollars from Reed Hoffman to help us create a government purpose-built CMS, and really as the world works in mysterious ways, we were able to pull back on that investment after we found this firm, open cities inside of Australia that had really been doing this. Then prior to Open Cities I was at, code for America, but also to a company called Pay It where I helped various governments modernize the way that they manage payments. And all of that comes back to me from, an initial kind of passion for what I think a good mutual friend of ours, Jen Paulka talks about is, the true way to drive scalable change in, the US and in any organization or a world is [00:03:00] really through government.

And technology. And I first got super excited about that when I was at a large, publicly traded organization that helps, billions of, taxpayers, millions of taxpayers pay their taxes. And really said, Hey. How is it that we have all of this information, but we can't actually help make our residents and our, consumers' lives easier.

Specifically when it came to filling out the free application for student financial aid and, as a part of a team at that organization that ultimately helped. about how could you break down some of those process barriers and silos and, ultimately help families get well deserved access to federal funding that they probably didn't otherwise know about.

And that was, for me, the first place that I really remember saying. Wow. Government and technology can have this really scalable impact in people's lives. And ultimately because of SEC and, IRS regulations, that work didn't continue at scale. But that passion of bringing technology to some of our most pressing problems in the public [00:04:00] sector really stood out to me as an opportunity and for the better part of now.

15 years probably has guided a lot of the work that I choose to do and have the pleasure of helping governments think about doing in their own communities. 

I love that. I think about my first interaction at in Gilbert when I realized that they only accepted checks and cash for payment and no credit card. And I was like, wait, what? The average age was 32, I think of the resident at the time, and yet we literally had no way to. Get payment other than these archaic methods.

And you just see so much of that in that space. And I love what you said really about bridging, this connection 'cause I think it's really at the core of what we do you said, you know, delivering technology to engage the customer and I, I just am so baffled still in this space, having never imagined I'd be able to do what I did in the government space.

I mean, I, I did this for. [00:05:00] Anchors at at big national news stations, help them to figure out how to use Twitter and you know, digitize and modernize their services. And never really thought about how that applied to government until I got to do it. And now I just still see so much opportunity in this space to do it.

 you said it, if people don't know about the services you provide or what their government does for them, right? These are essential services oftentimes. Like why your toilet's flush, why your water turns on, why your lights turn on in your house, why does your garbage get picked up? And yet, government doesn't do a great job at all of telling that story and the importance of it. And now, today, more than ever, I think people have distrust in government. So there's not a better time to be communicating in the way that people want it. I think about something you said to me. Recently about how Granicus and you, and I'd love to hear more about the new tools, 'cause I know you're doing a lot in the AI space and really in this customer experience world. But you talked about [00:06:00] offering a text messaging, service to cities. Why weren't they able, why weren't they deploying it?

Why weren't they using it? They were already customers of yours and you are offering them, this new service, which we do know is how people wanna be communicated with. They want to be communicated through text message it's very expensive if you wanna pay for a text messaging service. So here you were offering up at a low cost tool to better improve communication to residents.

And yet cities are like I don't have the Right people to manage it. I don't know how to manage it. We don't know how to tell people about it. or yeah, they'll say, oh yeah, we'll do it, but then they don't know how to deploy it, 

right. 

which. 

They just end up using it for the sake of technology and not thinking about who are the residents and who are the customers that wanna hear from us in text. How do we create kind of authentic dialogue? Certainly now with Gen AI and through our digital agent, There's now more and more channels that residents may choose to use, [00:07:00] and those channels may be different by various types of audiences.

And that's where I think it's really helpful that, we're able to now. Think about how do you choose the right channel to communicate and engage and ultimately serve people in the way that they prefer. And I think that's one of the things that's both so exciting, but probably admittedly frustrating for even government practitioners, you and I think about, our public sector or private sector experience, right? Like at MTV you had one very specific kind of consumer in mind, right? Even at M-S-N-B-C, you probably span the, age range, but you had a pretty core consumer. One thing I think that's hard that so many folks overlooking government, you've got 380 million people across the entire spectrum of.

Diversity socioeconomic needs, crisis moments of not having a crisis. And all of that can be very difficult for organizations to ultimately make decisions about the technology. But in a lot of cases, they don't even know who the consumers are or the [00:08:00] residents are that they're serving. Behind those. And that's where I guess like part of what we're trying to figure out at Granicus is, how do we help our customers, grow their audiences by better understanding who those people are so that you can ultimately better serve them and measure and optimize those experiences over time.

Because, the way that you and I probably are gonna interact with government is gonna be very different than someone who's in a shelter seeking housing in a moment in crisis, or someone that's, getting ready to a. Apply for, their VA or their Medicare benefits. And that's where, we just have such an opportunity to really thoughtfully use technology to serve the individual people and drive much more human personalized experiences.

And that's what excites me. And it is about making sure that governments see. That technology alone won't solve that. They have to invest in the right people skills and right behaviors to be able to do that, but they also have to break down some of their process gaps that have sometimes held them back from using that technology in new ways.

So [00:09:00] it's a, three legged stool. But the opportunity is there for sure. 

Y Yeah. You said a couple of things that I could not agree more with. One of them being not understanding, who your audience is first. Number one rule of marketing, in my opinion, and yet that audience understanding and then the strategy behind it. I think that many cities still just. Get on social media to get on social media or like you said, adopt a tool without understanding why or what they wanna use it for. And that was one of the things that I did in Gilbert was really start with a digital roadmap, which was a plan, a strategy of how we were gonna do it, where we were gonna do. And I just looked to who was already doing it, and it was Michael Bloomberg at the time, as the mayor of New York, had a Chief digital Officer, which my job had been modeled after, and I took their roadmap. Customized it for what would make sense for Gilbert, but it was something that the whole organization would be behind, and that tech component of it was a huge part of [00:10:00] it.

And I think in so many cities that tech piece gets stuck in the basement of an IT team that maybe isn't connected to that strategy. So understanding, and you mentioned it, the skill sets, right? You can have the greatest plan in the world, but if you don't have people with the right skill sets to deploy it, it means nothing.

And cities, I think need to take a long, hard look at those job descriptions that they posted. The same job description, or they haven't posted it because the same person's been in it for 30 years 

Yeah.

and it hasn't been updated, and the person's still just, using their filing cabinet and writing those press releases and I hired the first data storyteller, I think in the city space about 10 or 12 years ago, and I still don't see cities moving. To do things like that, which I thought at the time, Yeah. that was pretty forward thinking and ahead then. But now to me, there's no reason why you don't have digital content creators, storytellers in this space, or people using data to drive engagement and tell stories. [00:11:00] And you said it, again, the greatest. Tech the greatest, plan without knowing and understanding who that audience is and the residents, and then having the Right. people to connect with them and be willing to be innovative and think outside of the box and take risks. And I know going into the city space, I know the people you meet with, 

To try to go in there and say, here's what we have to offer. You look at all these new, and sometimes it just. Falls on deaf ears. Sometimes they want to, but they know they don't have the right people to deploy it. And also the answer isn't one body. We're gonna get a. 

Yeah. 

A Chief innovation officer and now we're gonna be innovative.

And it's no, you know this so well because you go into so many cities and you see this, it has to drive all the way through the organization to the bottom. And I know I've had conversations with you of Hey, do you know this mayor? Hey, do you know this city manager?

How do I get to someone that can make movement? It shouldn't be [00:12:00] like that . Right? 

Yeah. No, it's so hard. But to your point, that's where leadership really matters, How do you continue to get mayors and city managers a, that understand they have different audiences to help vision cast or create a clear strategy. But also to believe and understand data, I was in a city council meeting sometime probably in the last year, where a council member was even arguing over whether, the end value of a thousand, residents in their organization was representative and statistically valid, So you have all of those things. Plus then you know, the rooted of the.

Data in the storytelling, facts now more than ever are under attack. And our organizations and certainly, in politics and that's where I think governments have a responsibility to truly talk to the facts, help explain to folks how. Decisions are made, why decisions are made, what data is informing those decisions.

And so to your idea of, data storytelling. I [00:13:00] agree. I saw it, many years ago certainly with the work that you started in Gilbert, and it's been one of those things where again, it hasn't really taken off. And I think in some ways it's this question of is there belief in the data?

And that's where I think, again, have to just keep centering on facts, but we have to make sure that new mayors and city managers and all of these folks ascribe to it. And so that's where it's great that Bloomberg and, so many other organizations are doing things to upskill some of that, capacity inside of those leadership roles. And then to your point, communications can't just exist in a silo either, It's everyone's job. Everyone's job has to be able to understand who it is, and you've gotta bring clarity and tone and audience and all of these things to, the forefront, to make sure that people are communicating in clear and consistent ways. A huge challenge. But these, ideas that you've gotta center on data and, be truthful in how you tell stories, is I think critical now more than ever, especially as local news. Is missing from so many of our communities. 

Yes. So you [00:14:00] mentioned Bloomberg, which I primarily still do a lot of work with what they do, and one of the things that I love is in the city space, especially your ex. Exactly right. On the data side, the people that, I try to tell them this all the time, the people that are working with you want to work with you and they get it Right. They have identified those cities that have said, we are making efforts in this area either to use data, to try to get a data framework set up in the organization to understand it, and they want to make that change. I personally have been in a scenario where. We had a mayor that wanted to do that and then we had a mayor that didn't.

And that also can be extremely frustrating when that direction shift happens. And you've seen this happen in a lot of cities. Either you lose that person at the top and then how do you continue that work or that vision that was laid out suddenly when that person is gone. And I think that's a real challenge that cities are gonna face is this how does change. Outlast a mayoral term. And we've seen this happen and it, it's scary because when the mayor goes, the residents are still there. They [00:15:00] stay the same and they require the same level of service, in my opinion and still will, regardless of who their elected officials are, which half the time they don't even know who they are locally. Um, and, and when you're inside the city, you think everybody know. You're like, oh, everybody knows what we do and they think we're important. No. they don't. They're busy living their lives. They don't have a clue. which is why they need to be deploying technology and text messaging services and using AI to get people.

And I, I was struck that the city of Denver said recently with their chatbot that they deployed that, that one of the top issues, actually, I think the number one top issue that came through was like, you know, how do I find things on your website looking for things to optimize your website? But the other two were people looking for food and shelter. And so you mentioned that you wouldn't necessarily think that people, who were unhoused would be using tools and technology to do it. But they are. Right. And, and again, they're not gonna show up in person. They're probably not gonna write you an email or find a [00:16:00] phone number to call, but they would be willing to use a chat bot and type something in quick and easy.

And so this goes back to the data and what you talked about is like, if we can't understand. Who they are and how to reach them to start then we're lost. And I think you're right, more than ever. I was always really struck, even in Gilbert, which tends to be a more wealthy, highly educated community, demographically young. But I would always get the excuse of like, well, they're not online. Like, and there's a huge part of our population that isn't. And when I actually looked at the numbers, it was like 97% of our community had wifi access 

Yeah, 

and they wanted to make, so there was this may misconception maybe or misunderstanding around.

No, no, no. Actually only 3% of our population isn't online. That was in 2012. I can't even imagine. What those numbers are now. And so we can't make that excuse anymore. And I think we talk a lot about, meeting people where [00:17:00] they are, making it easy for them to interact and give feedback too.

Because you said the statistically valid 'cause I used to hear that all the time. Well, we paid $250,000 through the National Citizen Survey, but we only asked people by mail or phone what they wanted. And, And there, there was your, you know, you didn't even ask them online, you know, 

totally. 

And you're pointing at exactly what we've seen is yes. The mail order kind of surveys. Of course, they help you reach all of your population typically, in some representative fashion. What we've actually built with Granicus is our government experience, insights kind of platform, which again, has the ability to capture feedback across that customer journey or that experience, because when you think about it sometimes I find what I'm looking for. And I can get it done then and there. Sometimes I can't. And then I end up in maybe a part of a digital journey or an experience where I can't complete something online or to be able to complete it online. I'm getting confused by the instructions, So these provide opportunities not only to [00:18:00] capture feedback. At the point of time that I'm having an experience, but also at the end of that is a great way to start to get some, quantifiable or qualitative feedback around other things, So maybe somebody came in and actually just requested a trash bin or, said my trash was picked up late, or, whatever it might be. Some of those create opportunities to start to glean some insights around who that person is or what they care about. Then you can start to proactively engage them in some of these other opportunities, but also harness their feedback around Hey, do you think the city should have wheelie bins for trash?

Or would you rather see more bike lanes? There's these opportunities where you can turn some of that. Surveying or trying to understand what people care about into actual new engagement opportunities, and you don't have that to your point, when you just send them a piece of mail, They send it back and you lose the opportunity to continue that conversation, which is where, you know, I'm so excited that so many folks are starting to lean into [00:19:00] like the international Association of Public Participation. Where you really have this maturity curve around whatever. 'cause again, it just can't be these static experiences. But again, that requires people to think about an approach and rebuild processes that of course have to have council buy-in, right? That somebody's gonna say, yes, I want more data than just what the 2000 people responded to in a survey.

Still huge opportunities. The good news is, I think more and more people are doing it. You're seeing more and more folks come into government and move quickly through new roles, especially as there's more and more retirements. So I feel like we're making progress. It's probably still not at the pace that we would've thought it would've been when we both got into the space, 12 or 15 years ago. 

Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm staying in this space because I still see so much opportunity there. You know, I always wanted to scale what I had built in Gilbert in a meaningful way, and I think that there is still a need and desire. I've had so many [00:20:00] people be like, oh, You know why? Why would you stay in this city space?

And I say, because. Again, now more than ever, I, I would argue that all of this, what, what I don't think we talk about that. I, I love this, that you understand and Granicus understands the customer journey because again, this is the way you would approach this experience in any private sector company, Right. And yet government for some reason seems to really miss the mark on this. And again, meeting people where they are. they have opinions. They definitely wanna want to be involved, but we don't make it easy for them. Government, when I say we, government doesn't make it easy for them. Don't expect them to come to a public meeting and it's seven o'clock on a Tuesday.

you and I were talking earlier about how our lives are consumed by our children and everything they do. Right? And and it doesn't mean that they don't care. People do care. They wanna know, like you said, local news is dwindling, maybe slash dead. When I started out, even in Gilbert, I [00:21:00] talked about us becoming our own kind of news source and knew at that point, you at that time, you wanted to get as close to the source as possible.

That was what was trusted and believed. And sadly, I think in, like you mentioned, today's world, it's like. Are people gonna believe if the government says, and you're gonna have to fight even harder and tell that story more has to be more clear. It has, you have to say it over and over again. You have to say it in every way possible.

You need to say it in your e-newsletter. You need to say it on social media. You need to say it again in, every way you can and be clear and concise about it. And I think when you talk about like having that strategic understanding, all of this translates to civic engagement. Something that you and I, I think are at the core most. Passionate about in our work and you talk about Code for America and you know, in my work with Choose or Lose at MTV was like always about getting people involved in all of this should translate when done right in local government to getting that bond passed, to getting elected officials, to getting good people to want to run [00:22:00] for office. Keeping them there and understanding why that's so important. Getting people to wanna work in these jobs that are being created. You can have the greatest job description, but if you can't get the right person into that role. It's not, It's not gonna matter, So all of this is intended to drive that, that participation and that civic engagement, right?

But the old ways don't work. We have to think about modernizing the ways of engaging. 

Yeah. And that requires, I love that you brought up the idea of the jobs, Like you have to fundamentally rethink the hiring process. One of the challenges that I've seen sometimes is in local government specifically in communications roles, so many of the people come from just a traditional media background, where, you know, it's been like we're one voice. We only talk officially through the news station and that's it. 

Yep. 

As compared to this idea of two-way dialogue and really creating conversations which is where I know you and I are so aligned is right. Like every communications opportunity is an engagement [00:23:00] opportunity and an opportunity to learn more about what people think, how they think, but to also get them engaged in boards or commissions or.

To help you go tell a story in the community. And I think that's where again mayors and city leaders have to rethink what is the new profile that we need, what are the new job descriptions? And so again if they don't spin out and create some of those new things, it's so easy for governments to stay stuck in their own ways which is not what residents expect or want, you know.

I love that. I absolutely love that. Yes. And another thing that I really. Have loved about getting to know you in something. I know. that you do, and it's become a theme of this podcast unintentionally. Maybe just 'cause I tend to surround myself with people that just really know how to prop up women. I think specifically something that you do is in your work and obviously as a girl dad which I love talking to you about, our raising our daughters and something that I [00:24:00] think is. So critically important is like you really understand and I think, see, and have. Created opportunities to lift women up in this space. I know in the tech space and just even in the government space, I gotta say too it was rare to find yourself in rooms. I can think of. The first it meeting I ever went to, I think in Gilbert, I was the only woman in the room. And this is something you're really focused on and have been, I think in your career and understanding how to lift women up in this space.

And I think it's just. More important now than ever to do that. And so kudos to you for that. But then also, tell me about that journey for yourself and then obviously now being a girl dad. Why that is such a core tenant I think of the leader that you are the father you are. 'Cause I think our listeners will take a lot outta that and appreciate. 

Yeah. No, I appreciate it. I tell so many people, I feel like I was born to be a girl dad, but I [00:25:00] also was raised to be a girl dad. And I think now more than ever, we. Women need champions that are, fighting for their rights and helping champion their success, but are also, empowering and encouraging them to use their own voice.

And that's what I love, as my role as a, an 11 year old's dad and 11 going on 22, sometimes it feels like, um. You know, I was, I was raised by all women was, born to a single mom. My dad left before I was born lived with my mom and my aunt until my aunt moved to Los Angeles. But even then was, raised by my grandma who was also all around. One of my cousins also was primarily lived with his mom who had gotten divorced. So, you know, I always said, not only did I get in trouble once, I got in trouble four times, and I heard from every single woman in my life what I did that wasn't right.

But what all of those opportunities, showed me is. That there are so many ways that women can succeed and all of them require support from each other and [00:26:00] other people that help champion their success. Whether it's, someone that's just working extra hard to get noticed or someone that, fights for, their seat at the table.

I've seen where that can work, but also in so many places where it hasn't worked, which has informed and, just influenced some of my thinking that I always want to be a champion for that. And for those causes and I carry that with me, in so many different ways from, helping start a school that could, fund equitable opportunities for all kids to succeed. To, being on a board for an organization that supports youth development and helping, 10, 11, 12-year-old girls before they become self-conscious that they're not leaders to actually realize that they do have a voice and to help them channel and use that voice. So love, working with that organization, Madam President Camp which is so cool.

But yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, it's like anything, right? Nurture versus nature. For me it's probably a combination of both. But I've been so fortunate just to have a front row seat to seeing how women can succeed, but have to fight. To [00:27:00] succeed and have wanted just to make sure that I do whatever I can to help, all of my peers, all of my amazing colleagues, be as successful as possible.

And if that means me leaning back, which for me as an extrovert sometimes is incredibly hard but it provides an opportunity to let other people lean in. And, I just have, maybe understood that it's a responsibility I have. And I wish more people understood that they had just to help champion other people's voices, especially women's. 

I love it. I love it. I, I too was lucky enough, people always ask me a similar question and I say, well, you know, my mom was an English teacher and had me reading and, and participating and marching Arizona, didn't have a Martin Luther King holiday. And I can remember being very young and participating in marches.

Way back then, my grandmother had a college degree, which was pretty much unheard of at the time, and, and so I think about her all of the time, and especially now, I think more than ever. I never imagined that in 2025, like I'm raising [00:28:00] two teenage daughters that I'd have to. Explain things about, like, remind them.

Especially today, I think we need to do it more than ever that, you know, it, it wasn't long ago when women didn't have the right to vote and couldn't get their own bank accounts. 

Yeah. 

And I think we're on this very slippery slope at this moment in time where some of those things. Could be realities that we never even imagined or, or thought about.

And I think our daughters, there's certain things where they would take for granted and, and unfortunately they're being reminded every day now. Oh yeah. Look how far we've come. My oldest daughter just told me that they had finished reading a book and they were gonna talk about the beauties and brutalities of the world, and she had to pick which one to do.

And she's like, I'm gonna pick the brutality. And I asked her what, she had to come up with three examples. And her examples were, uh, slavery and [00:29:00] deportations and treatment of women through time. And she was like going through and, and we were talking about some of these things were happening today.

Some of these things were things that had happened in the past and I was having this conversation with her and it was so crazy. 'cause. We come into this time of our lives where I think we are reminded as leaders, as people that we're hiring the kids that we're parenting, how important these conversations are, and to talk about where we came from and the things that our. Our mothers and our grandmothers faced. 

Yeah. 

Um,

and I had this really interesting conversation with her, and all of this is so important and, I love that you talk about being loving being a girl dad. 'cause my husband's the same way. He, I don't think he would have it any other way than raising two daughters.

But the, this is our future.

Yeah. 

to think that we would have to even question whether or not, what that future looks like for them. I think that's another [00:30:00] reason that this work in the public sector for me is so important. And we talked about trust in government and lack of it, and I never saw the work that I did. In Gilbert as political at all. I saw it as non-partisan. I mean, mayors and at least in here, in some places it's not the case, but our non-partisan positions and they're here to serve all residents. And I think that's something that at the core has to come back in conversation. Like we talked about essential services at the beginning.

Everyone deserves those and has a Right. to that. It doesn't matter what your political party is or if you're male or female. I mean, the crazy part is how politicized all of that has become. the first 10 years I was in Gilbert, I worked with two very, very conservative mayors. 

Never had an issue. 'cause it wasn't about that. It was about serving residents. And you've worked in this space long enough to know that especially in local government, that's the beauty of [00:31:00] it, is that you didn't have to choose a side. And now everything has been so politicized. 

No, and it's hard. And that's where I think the responsibility is back on the citizenry to stay informed, to be curious. I talk a lot with, a variety of folks that I see at a bunch of events. You know how even. just given the political environment on a macro level, while yes, more of these races are still nonpartisan, I have definitely seen a shift from mayors, let's say 10, 12, 15 years ago who were hired and, voted for because they were. Governors, right? They knew how to operate and govern and lead with policy and lead with organizations. And you saw some of the 

Yes. 

Some of those folks were on, right? Like you think about a Beth Blauer now being at, Bloomberg or GovX, right? Like she came from O'Malley and there were these people that hired these amazing teams and built this structure that very much from Bloomberg and O'Malley became national [00:32:00] precedent, 

Now you've seen even the shift where, you know, it's now more. Activist type mayors where somebody gets elected simply because of a very specific policy initiative. And that in some ways, what that's doing is it's changing the focus of what these, mayors are able to do. They just go hard charge at one area. They don't. Build consensus. And so that's where I think it's just important for the citizenry.

And me as a girl dad or you, and certainly Scott is a dad, just to help make sure that everyone understands that like facts matter, voices matter. This is what the hallmarks of leadership look like, and you need to elect and hire and, invest in leaders and you yourself can be a leader. 'cause I, I wonder if that's part of it is just if the. You know what? We're all observing and have experiences like that. The understanding of what leadership looks like has 

Hmm. Hmm, You, I think that is a [00:33:00] great observation and when you can't see it, you can't be. It back to my point about I feel like I got lucky that I had, and you got lucky 

And as you were talking about your experience, again, I was thinking I didn't realize, 'cause I never observed that anything was different about my life. I just felt like I was super lucky to have four moms, 

 But, it wasn't until the last election cycle I don't know that I understood that women couldn't have their own bank accounts or couldn't actually buy a house until the mid seventies. So it's like even just thinking about what my life would've been like. With a single mom and whoever, if she literally couldn't have had her own bank account or couldn't have bought her own house. And I think that there's probably so many people that are our age or whatever that, assume all of that stuff happened in the fifties and the sixties and really still don't understand, like to your point no, this is stuff that happened like in the seventies, like we're talking like 35, 40 years ago.

It still is so [00:34:00] fragile in some ways because of that. 

Absolutely. And I think you're right, and I love this idea of luck because I think you have to, if you're not lucky enough to have it in, you know, your home, you go find it in teachers I mean, we all know we can think of those people and, and I always say that I was lucky I had. Some amazing female bosses.

I have had amazing bosses, male and female, but early in my career you know, bosses who were young moms who modeled to me that you could have it all, that you know, you could have a driving career and be a mom and do it all Well, And I think when you. Haven't seen that before. It's so important to go and seek it out, but you're so right about modeling it in leadership and we need more of it.

We need it in the city space. We need it in our elected officials. I mean, my God, like just back to just [00:35:00] normalcy and decency and, and. Like you said, what are those like core tenets of the things that we look for in a leader? And I love that you say that because not everyone is going to be as lucky and you gotta go work for it.

I mean, I think about it in hiring and in casting TV shows that I did, you know. Telling that story, showing different perspectives, making sure that all voices are at the table that is what this is all about. I didn't know that this conversation would come to this kind of full circle, but really that's kind of what's missing in the government, in the city space now, is that do we have all the right people at the table?

Do we have all the perspectives that we need to serve our residents? Best do we have, like you said, the people with the skill sets, do you have, people that haven't been working there for 30 plus years? Do you, like you just said it, you said back in the sixties and, the seventies, and I'm thinking we got a lot of those people in government that have been there since then that are still [00:36:00] there. you know, that that need to be either upskilling or modernizing the way they're thinking and or we will go back, 

Sure.

fall back and it's that pendulum that swings.

And you think about the rate and pace of change in ai, right? It's happening faster than ever before. And we have a core tenant kind of inside of Granicus that you have to be able to learn and unlearn and relearn as fast as you ever had. And, I think you're pointing at something that's, so critical is. have to prioritize professional development. I know this was many years ago. But I don't think it's, fundamentally changed. The average government invested something like $50. employee in professional development. And as you and I know, like that's a 

Yeah. 

license, right?

It's 

Yeah. 

that's highly 

At best. Yeah. 

And so certainly with ai, I think that's gonna be the place now where, how do you upskill people? How do you, you know, even think about critical thinking and the ability to 

Interrogate facts and ask questions and, test and [00:37:00] build and retest and ask hard questions. So certainly yes, all of those things. But, governments have to invest in continually developing the people that serve the residents. And if they don't, that's where, again, it comes back to the idea of trust. That's where people will stop voting and stop investing in general obligation bonds or other things that help create healthy, livable.

Communities that ultimately we all pay the price of. And so it is it's so funny to your point, like it's so obvious, but it is these like little things that can change so much and if governments were able just to invest in those in new ways and bring new kind of, approaches to the table, I think you could see a lot of improvement. 

Oh, I love that. That is a great way to wrap this up. I think anyone listening, stop printing. Stop mailing, and instead use that money to invest in your people. Make sure you have the right people. Invest in your tools and your technology to. Talk to more people to amplify your message, to engage your residents that way you are [00:38:00] so right about, $50 or whatever.

And yet, like back to my point about the survey, they're willing to spend $250,000 every year to run this survey by mail, because we've always done it that way. Well just stop one time and think about doing something differently. Put that cost savings somewhere else. and it doesn't have to be a huge investment.

Sometimes it is really small. You can make big waves with small change, and I think that's where you'll see it happen. So I have just so loved this conversation with you. Thank you so much. I know. Awesome. Thank you.