From Nigeria, Africa - Ahmed Tiamiyu Sr. Policy Advisor to Nigeria & The United Nations & Exec. Dir. CAPws--Community Action Against Plastic Waste in the Global South

Our guest today is from Nigeria, Africa - a dynamic scientist who is dedicating his life to helping communities in the Global South do something about the enormous amounts of waste, specifically plastic waste, that is being exported by higher income countries to lower income countries. The name of the non-profit organization is CAPws for Community Action Against Plastic Waste. His name is Hahmed Cee-amiyu, a Research Scientist advancing a toxic-free Plastic, Chemicals and Waste Policy| and Community-based Zero Waste Economy. 

He is passionate about driving impactful environmental policies and global cooperation on chemicals, waste, and pollution control. He currently serves as Executive Director at CAPws and as a Senior Policy Advisor on Multilateral Environmental Agreements (MEAs) to the Nigerian National Assembly House Committee on Environment.

His work has shaped key national policies, including the Nigeria National Environmental (Plastic Waste) Regulation 2023, and he actively contributes to international efforts through roles in the (Bahzel) Basel Convention’s Expert Group on Plastic Waste and the PREVENT Waste Alliance Steering Committee (launched by Germany’s BMZ). Part of the honorable actions the BMZ does is that it supports developing countries efforts to reduce greenhouse gases and adapt to the consequences of climate change

 Hamed is also an accredited observer to major UN environmental processes, including the Global Plastic Treaty INC, Basel, Rotterdam, and Stockholm Conventions, Minamata Convention, SAICM The Strategic Approach to International Chemicals Management , GFC the United Nations Global Framework on Chemicals , UNCCaD - the United Nations Convention to Combat Desertification, an international agreement focuse

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Transcript

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Welcome to the Resilient Earth podcast where we talk with speakers from the United States and around the world about the critical issues facing our planet and and the positive actions people are taking - from the tiniest of actions to the grandest of gestures so that we can continue to thrive and survive for generations to come.

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Our guest today is from Nigeria, Africa, a dynamic scientist who is dedicating his life to helping communities in the global south do something about the enormous amounts of waste, specifically plastic waste, that is being exported by higher income countries to lower income countries. The name of the nonprofit organization he is with is CAPWS for Community Action Against Plastic Waste. His name is Ahmed Tiamiyu, a research scientist advancing a toxic-free plastic chemicals and waste policy and community-based zero waste economy. He is passionate about driving impactful environmental policies and global cooperation on chemicals, waste, and pollution control. He currently serves as executive director at CAPWS and as a senior policy advisor on multilateral environmental agreements to the Nigerian National Assembly House Committee on Environment. His work has shaped key national policies including the Nigeria National Environmental Plastic Waste Regulation 2023 and he actively contributes to international efforts through roles in the Basel Convention's Expert Group on Plastic Waste and the Prevent Waste Alliance Steering Committee launched by Germany's BMZ. Part of the honorable actions the BMZ does is that it supports developing countries' efforts to reduce greenhouse gases and adapt to the consequences of climate change.

Hamed is also an accredited observer to major UN environmental processes, including the Global Plastic Treaty, Basel, Rotterdam, and Stockholm Conventions, the Strategic Approach to International Chemicals Management, the United Nations Global Framework on Chemicals, the United Nations Convention to Combat Desertification, and International Agreement.

Speaker 1 (04:11.064)
focused on addressing land degradation and drought, particularly like regions in Africa, and the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. He thrives at the intersection of science, policy, and advocacy, and builds bridges across stakeholders to shape an equitable, more sustainable future. Our conversation with him is enlightening, entertaining, entertaining and definitely sobering. But he has a wonderful message for youth in our world at the very end. Stay tuned. That's all next on Resilient Earth Radio. 

Hi. Good morning from here. 

Yes, good morning from here!

And do you go by Ahmed or Timmy?

Speaker 2 (05:04.8)
One is the middle name, the other one is my first name. So yeah.

So how do we address you then?

It's Ahmed. Yeah, Hahmed is fine. See-Ah-me-you (Tiamiyu).

Speaker 1 (05:21.006)
Welcome to Resilient Earth Radio and Podcast. And we are so appreciative to have you here joining us today to talk about a very serious issue around the world. And you're coming to us from Nigeria. Why don't you introduce yourself to our audience and tell them about yourself, your name, your background. We'll get underway with that. Then we'll get into the organization and what that represents.

Thank you very much. pleasure. I'm very glad to speak, looking at the work you've been doing. I consider myself very privileged to be able to share my thoughts. And of course, it's really heartwarming to meet the master. I'm not sure if I pronounce you guys name very well, but I look at your website and it's really, really impressive.

the work you've dedicated yourself to do, it's really uncommon to find one person, now a whole family, a couple is together. Amazing.

it's really yeah it's really really amazing. Thank you for your dedication. And it's a privilege to actually be able to share this space to thank you.

Thank you.

Speaker 1 (06:40.494)
In the Los Angeles area, there's a census going on now. This is their 41st year. And when we came to the West Coast and we became aware of that, we kind of modeled our project after that one. And so this is our 12th season counting and observing all the creatures in the ocean on this coast, on this particular stretch of...

California, which was terribly underrepresented. There was big gaps in where people were looking and observing and studying whales. And Scott had the idea when we came out here, because the gray whales especially are a coastal species. So we can see them right from the shore. We are land-based. We don't go out in a boat. You wouldn't want to go out on a boat on most days in the Pacific, very rough seas.

So that's how we got started. And it's been a lot of fun and a lot of interesting things that we're learning these past 12 years. And especially with your background too in biology teaching for over three decades tree there in Long Island, New York. And the two of you were on the East coast and Scott, mean, you've written the great whale book along with a couple of others and you were in Nova Scotia, the Caribbean.

And Ahmed, you're doing work with communities in the Caribbean as well.

But honestly, I doubt that.

Speaker 2 (08:09.262)
Obviously the work that Scott and Trill do is really impressive for me because I just reflect on that, you know, and I imagine.

the amount of dedication that goes into that. And given that, you know, it's only recent time that blue economy and ocean literacy became really a big deal. Even the UN only having the third meeting of the UN Ocean Conference just in recent time. And imagine someone and individuals who have dedicated their time, how much we could actually benefit from learning from all of that.

and having insight into some of the things they should have definitely come up with over the time. definitely a lot. And particularly from Africa, there's a lot of knowledge gap when you look at some of these issues. Like Nigeria only had the Ministry of Blue Economy in the last one year. The ministry, I'm not sure, is even up to one year.

speak more about that.

Speaker 2 (09:11.502)
to tell you, and this is a country that has a very long ocean across our Niger Delta. So imagine what more we need to do. that's attempting not to talk about. But I'll go straight to your question now. My name is Ahamed Tiamiu. I'm a research scientist by training. My background is in microbiology. My undergraduate, I did microbiology. And I actually did have a lot of interest in the relationship Microbiology has suited to environment. So I pick interest in chemicals and waste and how, because I also do a lot of chemistry. So I pick interest in finding solutions to challenges of chemicals and waste. And this is actually not, it's not just out of the blue. It's because in Nigeria, and so is in many developing countries, we have a lot of gap when it comes to chemical regulation and their management.

So this was a easy thing for me to try to see how can one able to support the government, the local community responding appropriately to these challenges with the interest in chemicals and waste then specifically in plastic and building a community addressing the solution. And that's how we came about a community action against plastic waste.

In 2020, but formally in 2021, but this project started in 2020 during the COVID. During the COVID, there was a heightened use of plastic and there was a lot of plastic pollution because of one, the medical protective, most of them designing plastic. Many people, because of also the restriction, to do a lot of takeaway.

So in buying food, in buying drinks, there was a lot of single use plastic. So these also accelerates pollution, for instance, are coming from plastic and building a community, particularly of young people who has the leadership and technical capacity to respond within their community was the idea that bids the community action against plastic waste called CAPWS for short. And what we wanted to do basically is to build activation hub.

Speaker 2 (11:31.21)
in frontline communities, mostly impacted communities, in coastal community, land-based pollution. Particularly, we started out from Nigeria and targeting other African countries that have similar problems. So we're basically working with young people, citizens science, using our existing skills to build community response to address the challenge.

videos.

Speaker 4 (11:49.006)
Jesus.

Speaker 2 (11:57.43)
And this is what we set out to do. And it was quite acceptable to many young people across our continent because in the immediate, within the first one year, 15 country, you know, we have on boarded about 59 communities in 15 country across Africa. And in the second year, we also have community interest from young people in Asia-Pacific, for instance. So we had community in Pakistan, in India.

Africa.

Speaker 2 (12:26.122)
And of course, later on, also had in Fiji, for instance, we also, know, small island states that also have a lot of challenges with plastic pollution. So we had interest, people, interested young people from Fiji and later on, we had also interest from Venezuela in Latin America. So now we have 71 small community hub. We call them activation hub. In 71 community, we now have this activation hub.

and in 21 countries. A majority of these countries in Africa, but like I said, we have few countries in Asia, Pacific, and in Latin America. One specifically in Latin America and Venezuela, and we have two countries also in Asia Pacific. This is basically what we've been able to do. And over time, we also continue to build capacity. We understand the challenges of plastic more and more, only not just from the waste management challenges.

and

Speaker 2 (13:24.984)
but also from upstream and midstream solutions that can actually cut the existing pollution. We start engaging in policy processes and thereafter we've got accreditation with UNEP and this accreditation with UNEP also give us a lot of access to resources, collaboration. also give us access to be able to observe as an accredited observer into many of UNEP major meetings.

this

Speaker 2 (13:54.062)
including Basel Rotoderm and Stockholm Convention, they are also related, and the Minimata Convention, also the Plastic Treaty, for instance. So all of these efforts to build capacity, now we're able to understand the response, for instance, not only from the community point of view, but how can government, particularly national government, could also respond appropriately. We've been doing all of these, including building capacity for

Minister of Environment in Nigeria. And that's why you can see that in the Placid Treaty negotiation, for instance, like you can see across the African group, Nigeria is one of the most ambitious country, even though we are a oil-based economy. And so some of the work we've been able to do is to dissect and help the government to unpack the relationship between now and with the future that we need to build.

Well, we're very impressed by your efforts, your organization's efforts. The scope is very impressive and we're very honored to have you here with us today. And just for our listeners, could you explain UNEP again, break it down a little bit so they understand what that is.

Okay, thank you very much. So UNEP is a United Nations Environment Program and it is the UN system organ responsible for global environmental policy of governance. They have a mechanism, it's called United Nations Environment Assembly, which is the highest decision-making body of environmental governance globally. But this is true how globally,

Governments collaborate and respond to environmental challenges and UNEP provides guidance.

Speaker 1 (15:44.11)
And just back up a moment too and describe how you got involved in doing this given your background.

Okay, like I said before, it was driven out of passion because of course, one of the things I understand early in life is that I had a rare opportunity because I have parents, both of them who only had basic education. And it was a privilege for me to have been able to have a university degree. So I understand very early in life that I need to use this opportunity so that other people could also be able to have.

ZD

Speaker 2 (16:21.902)
you know, such benefits, or it could become an opportunity, you know, for future generation. And I always wanted to try to do things, not only in the confine of the knowledge that I have, but I could also be able to open up opportunity for many more people. And that's why after doing different things, including before CAPWS, I had some other organization, but maybe with slightly different agenda.

But most importantly, CAPWS was set up to actually be able to provide an opportunity for any young people and mostly vulnerable groups, including women, because these are the people we work with mostly. Anywhere in the world can be able to use this community and network to actually be able to use this network and our space to be able to empower themselves and...

confront the challenge of environmental degradation in their community.

You just answered a question because I saw the program that you have on the website about restoration X 10,000 that is really for youth and women. And I was wondering why specifically that group. And now I understand better that part and Scott and tree. Did you have something you wanted to ask at this point?

I do want to comment that what you're doing and your reasons for getting involved in it are so humbling and honorable. So I thank you for that. you're making a difference and you are targeting the population that it's their future that's at stake here. And to make people feel that they also can make a difference isn't in fact a very powerful experience that you're providing.

Speaker 1 (18:11.404)
You said you have a good background in microbiology and chemistry. And I was wondering, is something really basic at Leanne and we were discussing before, I'm not sure that people understand where plastic even comes from. It is such a tremendous part of our everyday lives. It's plastic all around us, but would you be able to explain to us the process that even produces plastic?

Thank you very much. That's a very, very important question.

question. This is actually for basic for many people. And that's why it's difficult to understand even appropriate solution to plastic. But yeah, when we understand where they come from, I think we better can imagine what is the appropriate solutions to be able to differentiate appropriate solution. Yeah, thank you very much for that very important question. So from basic chemistry, a plastic byproduct of fossil fuel, which of course is at the core part of climate change.

you know, the challenges that the world, one of the biggest challenges of our time. As a by-product, plastic, petrochemical industry, mostly who are responsible for their extraction, also creates polymer out of these. These polymers are usually the ones that through chemical processes, chemistries, in which they mix with other type of chemical to give them different type of shape, color, durability.

ability.

Speaker 2 (19:40.234)
and also the properties that they have in which makes them to become some of the favorite for the world. But without understanding the dangers that they possess. Because they are basic chemistry, chemistry means that putting two or three things or more together to make, to give a particular property. So what happened is that plastic are able to distinguish at different conditions, whether in the very code

many people from

Speaker 2 (20:10.062)
whether it's high temperature, whether it is in movements or, know, all sort of, because science has shown that now there's a danger of plastic chemicals migrating into the food that they are packaged in. It also shows in the microplastic that we have in our hair, in the soil, in the food. And some of the last reports, I think ahead of INC5, there was some Norwegian scientists

that may have been a latest report shows that around 16,000 different type of chemicals are currently using plastic production. And about 4,000 of them are chemicals of high consigns. Many chemicals are linked to endostriotin, carcinogenic, know, many diseases that we now have today.

many of these chemicals have been linked to this and only about 1 % of these 4,000 chemicals have any kind of restriction or even been properly researched for their impact.

Like PFAS.

There's a forever chemical.

Speaker 2 (21:15.426)
Yeah, exactly. Like under, for instance, under the Rotorum convention, another convention, like some of them are restricted, but there's only very little, you know, like pork, for instance, very little amount of them are being regulated within any policy mechanism anywhere in the world. And there's not even enough research about the, and their impact, for instance, even in children's toys. Yeah, they're peevers. And these are chemicals that are cumulative.

They can stay for very long time in human body, causing lasting damages. By the time you noticed it, it's already too late. And the same thing applies to particularly in many developing country where I come from. In most frontline community, passive pollution is making many of our people to be poorer. How do I mean?

Plastic has been linked to health issues. These are community where people do not have insurance for instance. There is no kind of, insurance is not available for everyone. So people are exposed to diseases that they do not even have money to take care of. So they need to look for, sometimes they spend all of their entire life savings on their health issues. The same for their children. So people, the income that they could have at their disposal

you know, to move out of poverty or to continue to maintain, have a decent living, they spend it on their health because it becomes an emergency. And this is a cycle, eating cost of plastic pollution that has not been talked about and often been neglected.

think that's a really important point, especially for us here in the United States to understand that in other countries. We don't really think about it from that angle, but that is where their money is going, is towards their health because of these chemicals. And I just want to bring up an article that I found in Sustainability Magazine from November of last year, right about the time that they were having that final and fifth session of the Global Plastics Treaty there.

Speaker 1 (23:26.222)
South Korea, but the comment was 9 % of plastic around the world is actually recycled. Only 9%. And then there's like a garbage dump truck full of plastic that pollutes the oceans every single minute, which is huge to even consider. And that by 2050, as we've heard in a few places, there's going to be more pieces of plastic.

in the ocean than there are fish. So I just wanted to drop that article in there too. But this article is actually talking about a solution that has been also announced about that same time from Japan from a company called Riken. And I think it's the University of Japan that came out with a dissolvable plastic and it's a

newly developed plastic based on supramolecular chemistry using ionic monomers linked by reversible salt bonds and it dissolves pretty quickly in water and in about 10 days in soil and it becomes like fertilizer. So I didn't know if you'd heard about that or not.

Okay, this is actually can be a bit complicated to be honest, because of course, we've seen a lot of solutions, people talk about bio-piles, plastic, know, compostable. I think, I think it's most of the solutions has to be, you know, have to be carefully examined. Because yes, they may sound fantastic on paper, but one thing we cannot be able to do away with is to look at the

For me

Speaker 2 (25:09.76)
Eating chemicals, sometimes the intended chemicals are problem for plastic. Sometimes because they are chemistry. Some chemicals that happens are not even intended. For instance, during the processing plastic, all that type of chemicals also formed. They're also polluting. And that is why it's not really a problem because it's not working because of

lack of collection like sometimes we attribute it to yes this is one problem or one part but another problem is because even the entire recycling chain is polluted and workers within facilities in plastic recycling actually the first line of sexuality because a lot of time they are exposed to many chemicals in the line of this work and in many countries for instance there is no even

appropriate protective equipment for them because some of them, the chemicals are found in the hair. Some of them are polluting in water. So I'm always very careful about, you know, different type of solution until there's enough science-based evidence that says that otherwise. But if not, I think the best way we could look at solution for plastic going forward is a very simple analogy from the African perspective.

When you walk into a room that is overflowing with water, the first basic thing, common sense thing to do is to turn off the water. If you at least reduce the volume, the running water, because if you do not, you could not even have a very good sense of the overflowing water in the room and how to start mopping it up. And this is current situation we have with the current plastic pollution and production globally.

We need to turn off the tap.

Speaker 1 (27:07.374)
Yes. What a great analogy. Yeah. I have a question for you. was such a small amount being recycled, a plastic being recycled and such a tremendous amount being produced constantly and going through the system and such a small amount being recycled, wouldn't it be much more cost effective for the plastics industries to recycle better? Not have to start from scratch every time the

make another thousand bottles or whatever they're going to make.

Thank you very much, Kurt. I think the question you're talking about, maybe they should use more recycled content, Recycled plastic in their production.

Yes, they have to start off. Yeah.

What do mean? Yeah, so the challenge with that is really multiple and lot of challenges. For instance, recycled plastic has also been found to contain a lot of pollutants. Yeah, so many of them, because of the nature of plastic, plastic as a material, for instance, is different from many other material like melt, aluminum, for instance. So when plastic are recycled and those recycled ones

Speaker 2 (28:18.45)
use some of them does not become, it's difficult to become a food grade again. Because for instance, plastic does not have, they are not endlessly recycled. There's a certain time that if you recycle a plastic, it cannot be the same material again. So the same thing happens when plastic are recycled for reuse. Sometimes they contain pollutants that also corrupts the material. So it makes it not be able to be able to use for

for instance, food grade or some type of material, some type of a product, for instance. So it's really, really challenging. But I think globally with the industry, for instance, is of course, and many countries like it has been witnessing in the ongoing negotiation is that many have seen plastic as alternative for fossil fuel. Now globally, there's been increase for alternative

Team Energy.

energy in cleaner energy use. So now there's a decrease in amount of fossil fuel in many countries and globally. So for many countries who are producing, who are major producers of crude oil, they are seeing plastic as an alternative to continue to grow their production. And that is where you see the problem. And that's why even this is some of the major challenge you can see in global plastic creating negotiation, for instance.

why you see some country are not negotiating in good faith, particularly country who are major producer of good oil. And the same thing happened with India, yeah. And Saudi Arabia for instance, yeah, who probably is leading the pack. And the same thing with industries. Like Coca-Cola for instance, you see their sustainability goal, they continue to make changes that undermined everything they stood for.

Speaker 1 (29:52.948)
like russia

Speaker 4 (30:03.5)
You see many

Speaker 2 (30:14.89)
know, five years ago, in terms of reducing the amount of plastic that they use in their production line and considering a more used system within their production line. So is the same thing challenges that is happening?

So it's really turning the tap off and it's waste management. seems like those are two core things.

Absolutely. Yeah. For instance, there has to be major reduction in production targets for plastic production globally. If you were going to be talking about addressing the root cause of plastic and getting us to a 20 to 2040 or 2050 net zero in time of a plastic challenges. Another thing is to address the chemical because of course, if the chemical continue to pose risk and hazard to people.

it cannot sustain the use of plastic. So they have to be a substitute. There has to be innovation in substituting. And they are existing in green chemistry, for instance, in sustainable chemistry, innovations to ensure that chemicals that are used that can give the same quality of property as actually ones that are safe and does not harm human health and the environment.

And of course, it's also important to ensure that those who are most responsible for managing plastic waste and waste generally globally, the informal waste sector, which are the backbone of waste management globally, are prioritized and included in decision-making. There are millions of them globally.

Speaker 2 (32:03.278)
Let me give you a stand for instance, in the global north, it's very different from what you see in the global south. Many with speaker have to walk several kilometer every single day only to earn less than a dollar. And this is the condition. Many with speaker have to walk several kilometer every single day only to earn less than a dollar.

Say that again.

Speaker 1 (32:33.262)
Wow.

So this is the work, this is the kind of work that nobody wants to do. But this is the conditions that the informal way speakers are subjected to. And they have to do this every day to survive, to feed their family.

So describe what CAPWS is doing. I don't mean to step on your toe there. Please finish your thought. But I think you're leading towards that direction.

Yeah, so to quickly conclude that, so what happens is that, for instance, there's something called waste colonialism. I'm sure if you're aware about this, but it's one of the reasons why Basel Convention, it was, this convention came into place in 1989. And the convention is to manage the trans-boundary of a saddler's waste. And many plastic could also be classified as same. So what happens is,

For many European country and in the US for instance, many of the waste that are collected that are not seen on the streets or maybe not even in landfill, exported to Africa and Asia.

Speaker 1 (33:44.94)
Yes, that's the problem.

Country. Yeah, these are country that does not even have what it takes to manage your own waste. Now, this waste that they do not even have infrastructure to manage, because most of what is available are manually cycling. But now some of these wastes are exported. And the waste pickers are the ones that have to deal with them. And the informal recyclers because this sector is largely informal.

So they have to deal with this as opposed to all sort of hazardous chemicals and waste in the process. And on top of that, they have to walk several kilometers, like I said before, only to earn less than a dollar. And this is in the, because this is within the economy where there's a value chain or whatever they call it, that is very little investment. So that's why I'm saying that apart from cutting plastic production, reducing production globally, managing the chemical,

Another very important thing is also to include informal waste peaker by formalizing them and ensuring that they actually end living wages for the work that they do. And of course also tap into their expertise because they've developed this over the year working in this space to how can the ward better manage the plastic waste that we have to face. Yeah, to go to the questions that you had about

what CapWs is doing. Yeah, you're very right on point that they are together. So one of the way that we're responding to that is how can we make this job to be more decent for people? Because we have within our network informal speakers who are also member of our network as individual as an organizations. So one of the things we wanted to do differently is to ensure that the job is more decent and is also

Speaker 2 (35:41.654)
green in town in responding to this sustainable development goal in creating green jobs for young people and women, mostly who are unemployed and particularly in the global south, this can become an opportunity for them. And how do we want to do that is by designing structure. And that's why we have this activation hub. This activation hub is to ensure that no waste picker have to get out of their community in managing their waste. So they don't have to walk several kilometers in picking waste.

they only have to focus on the waste within their community, which will reduce the amount of trouble they have to go through.

Kind of like working from home here.

Makes sense.

Yeah, so it will reduce the amount of a problem they also exposed to by not letting the waste to get into the landfill before they are collected, but they collected right from home, which make the recycling value change also be cleaner and also shorter in time of between getting from the home or businesses to the recycling facility, mostly through a material recovery facility, which are based in the community.

Speaker 2 (36:53.024)
and they collected, they asserted and they are linked with off-takers through a cooperative, a community cooperative for the waste peaker. So this ensures that they also have more liquidity within their cooperative and making sure that they have access to back accounts, which can ensure that they are able to also get maybe grounds and other supports and they can have informal record of the activity.

All of this is to make the job to be more decent and to be within the decent job definition of UN and to ensure that it's actually truly they are earning a living wage.

That certainly is very important and much needed for sure. And this sounds like it goes right into the difference between like a linear economy as opposed to a circular plastic economy. Is that right? Yeah.

So.

The only challenge we have with definition of circular economy sometimes is it can be wrongly used because when you say circular economy, particularly when you talk about plastic, it has to be emphasized that it has to be toxic free.

Speaker 2 (38:11.404)
Yeah, the entire secularity is one that is free from toxic, even though we are a long way there. But that should be the aim. That should be targets in mind.

Yep, I agree. I saw that on your LinkedIn profile too, toxic free circular economy. Yeah. What is your day like when you go about running this organization? It seems quite extensive and vast what you're doing. Just describe for our listeners what it's like for you to go about your job every day.

That's it.

Yeah, absolutely. It's really a headache.

Yeah, some of the major challenges of course is from waking up in the morning. Of course, I usually have meetings like this because my job, the role include for instance, designing research, know, citizen science research that also help us to better do what we do every day. And, you know, to have important data that give us, you know, very good interpretation. Also including

Speaker 2 (39:24.766)
working on policies and advocacy because one of the very few things that we discover very early in organization work is that without policy framework, it's difficult to get the desired results. We can do all of these efforts, but when they are in silo and they are fragmented, it's difficult to actually get. So working on policy to help the government, for instance,

at different level, whether it is the parliamentary house. For instance, I have a voluntary role, which I work with the Nigerian parliamentary committee on environment to support them in that advisory role. I'm working with state governments, for instance, there's only Nigerian governments at the national level that have a policy on plastic and legal state government in many other 35 states government, including the FCT.

do not have any policy direction on how do you want to manage plastic. So we wanted to continue to support them to have a policy direction because this can ensure that every stakeholder is able to play their role effectively. For instance, the industries locally here and in many African countries, they get away with a lot. For instance, they don't take care of the plastic they put on markets. For instance, there is no plan to do that effectively.

So we want to ensure that not only them, but even the community able to know what kind of role do they need to play. The government able to also respond appropriately by ensuring that there's a proper policy framework to provide guidance. And of course, community intervention, that's the major last rule that most of my work is focused on in ensuring that

speaking with our community in Rwanda, speaking with our community in Kodiwua, speaking with our community in South Sudan.

Speaker 2 (41:17.219)
We die.

South in Tanzania, in Kenya, basically to see how can we better find collaboration to improve opportunity. Yeah, for our people in the frontline to show that we're better to cause of course, these are also very capital intensive. We're building material economy facility for instance, to support schools, support universities so that they are able to

trying to

Speaker 4 (41:34.552)
front.

Speaker 2 (41:49.784)
collects appropriately plastic that they're using and they don't end up to either pollute the land or the ocean working with coastal communities. So basically these are what most of my work focus on and most of the meeting except in rare cases like interview, most of them are focused on talking to different partners who are working with us on different things or who are probably. And of course I also spend a lot of time learning

and new opportunities.

Speaker 2 (42:20.032)
attending webinars that help to capacity, that can better do what we do, what are areas to improve. So my day is typically traveling, meetings, meeting with our partners, meeting with our team member, and of course, in work, whether it's

See

Speaker 4 (42:31.048)
If I'm not.

Speaker 4 (42:38.254)
sending it, it is a report or whether it is a creating. But it's just without, without.

new concepts.

Without no timeline, actually, I just my computer and I can't.

Well, thank goodness there are people like you in this world who have that drive and motivation, right? Tree and Scott. Absolutely. And I think you guys can relate to, to staying on top of latest research through watching webinars. You, you both do that, but look at the scope that he too is involved in. Incredible. Good thing you're young. I had a question too, on the

global treaties on plastics and this next upcoming, what they're calling 5.2 session in Geneva, Switzerland. And given the pushback from the petroleum producing countries like Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, and others, what do you feel might happen or what may be some of your concerns, maybe even frustrations about what's happening in creating policy?

Speaker 4 (43:54.094)
They said the elephant in the room, this is a very major problem with the treaty.

From Busan seems to have a point that there needs to be some drastic step to actually that of the world, because for instance, the rule of which can actually give leverages because of course we have more countries around the world who are willing to have an ambitious treaty as shown in Busan led by Mexico, about 100 country who are hard to for ambitious led by Rwanda.

Sheets.

Speaker 4 (44:10.446)
Get out

for this video.

Speaker 2 (44:30.926)
who are 87 of them, I think around about 100 plus country, around about 80 something country who are opposing to having anything less than a treaty that can truly address plastic pollution. But unfortunately, we have few countries who are blocking this. And this is the problem embedded in the rule of procedure, which is to and not be sorted from INC2. I remember in Paris during the INC2 in Paris,

the second meeting, the rule of procedure took the entire INC committee three days from Monday to almost the end of Wednesday. There was no negotiation. There was no progress and they could still not agree on it even till now. So now if one country, all of the party does not agree, one country can block off. This is the situation that we have at it.

.

Speaker 4 (45:24.257)
of progress.

Now they have not been able to agree whether it's the two third vote, whether if the agreement they could not agree on something that they should have a vote. And on top of that, there were so many exclusion of civil society organization in Busan in which we are locked out of the room. All of the observer, including science groups, public interest group, youth organizations, everybody were locked out. Only member states seems to be a lot of lack of transparency.

there is within the UN system and even in many countries, in almost every country in the world, there's a guarantee for public participation because the government's representative represents people from their constituencies. And what is the constituencies asking is what the government is bringing to this space. We work with a lot of young people, we work with women, we work with grassroots community. And one of the important...

opportunity for us participating in these processes, many of the communities that we work with do not even have knowledge of assistance of these type of processes. So we have to bring the knowledge to them and to be able to capture their yearning so that we're able to bring these voiceless to this important process. Because without these voices, we cannot be talking about

addressing issues that affect them every day. Like I said, this is making our people poorer. This is killing people every day, deteriorating their health. How is their voices not matter in a space like this, where their future is being decided? So this is what happened in Busan. But going forward, we hope that Geneva will be different, though I'm very less optimistic, honesty, and it is very saddening to

Speaker 4 (47:18.305)
see much

multilateral agreements becoming a deteriorating space because this is supposed to be a space that represents a lot of hope for the most vulnerable in our society. This was supposed to space where the leaders supposed to most powerful people supposed to come together and respond to the yearnings of the weakest links within our communities.

This was just about the point I was about to make, that it's unfortunate that our own country, with its disarraying chaos right now and its current administration, it's unfortunate that they're not going to give that leadership there. I don't think. This is my opinion, but I think it's reflected around a lot of people in this country who are frustrated about that.

It's really saddening. but multilateral represents a lot of opportunity because for instance, no country can address the issue of plastic pollution on their own. So it has to be a global agreement that helps to raise ambition and also help governments accountable to be able to respond appropriately. So it is very important, but unfortunately, this is where we are. But I know there will be a lot of treaty alternative pathway in Geneva.

I believe the Secretariat, the Chair, the Bureau will be doing a lot of intercessional work to ensure that Geneva actually counts. Because if this treaty fails, I'm very afraid. If this treaty fails, it means the problem that people face every day are going to linger around. I don't think anyone wants to imagine what would that mean. So it must not fail. And I note that

Speaker 2 (49:04.822)
human being, we have the ability to be able to respond in most difficult situations and to be able to come up with solutions. So we'll be going to Geneva and we'll be hoping that the outcome will be one that is actually respond to the challenges that most vulnerable in our community face.

Yes, you reflected a comment also on if this fails that Marcus Erickson had mentioned to us when we spoke with him and his group, the Five Gyres Institute. And he's another one that we've met recently through people who are addressing the design standpoint of where these materials come from and how to change that.

a professor from UC Davis here in California who introduced us to him. And then we found out about the Octo group and I've been following their email that scientists like yourself and others like Carl Nettleton that we've had on this show to talk about plastics in our world and what can be done about it. There's a recent thread I was reading the last couple of days on PVC pipes that are used in construction and how those are cut.

And that gets in the landfill and that runs off into our waterways. But the key thing that we're all trying to do here is elevate those voices from wherever they are that need to stand up and be heard about critical issues that are facing our planet. I mean, that's at least what we can do with a podcast. We are giving you this time and others to talk to us, talk to those who listen around the world.

about these issues and what can be done and what do people need to pay attention to. So we appreciate all of your comments and your input and want to thank you very much for coming on this show with us to talk about these things. I wanted to ask you something I've been wondering about for a while. We're hearing a lot about the microplastics getting into the soil, now getting into the plants, interfering with photosynthesis. We breathe in a certain amount every day.

Speaker 1 (51:17.27)
If we went into a warehouse where plastic containers are stored, say a Pepsi Cola warehouse or something, and you walk in there, are we breathing bits of plastic then through the bottle shed molecules that we'd end up breathing? That's not optimistic. You your head going up and down.

Yeah, that's why I said the problem with plastic is almost endless. It's really massive, to be honest, because the issues of plastic and microplastic and nanoplastic is another entire huge subject. There's a very common cartoon, some images I've seen that describe it very well, where a woman was buying a fish from a local shop and

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:45.006)
Really?

Speaker 2 (52:06.988)
She was giving the fish without in any wrap. And she asked the seller for a plastic bag. And she told her the plastic is inside the fish. So.

Yeah. Bad. It's bad but true. It's though.

It's true. This is the situation that we have at hand today in which microplastic has been found in our brain in hemorrhoea in almost part of our body. It has been found in the top most mountains in that.

Yeah!

Speaker 1 (52:41.282)
the deepest trench in the ocean, Marianas Trench, right?

Yeah. So, so imagine they're everywhere. This is a, does not belong in places where they have been found. So imagine the amount of damages that goes on. And this is a situation we have to face with microplastic today. And this is even given that there's even less research that's gone into all of us. In some of the most sophisticated country, like in the U.S. for instance, where you find some of the best universities.

This is unfortunately situation that we have at our hand. And that is why it is urgent, really, really urgent to respond to the issues of global plastic challenge.

Well said. Well said. Yep. It is urgent and we have to face this. It's like the genie's been let out of the bottle and we're so used to the convenience of plastic. But it's a big challenge that we face, but face it, we must.

So absolutely. And that's why every stakeholder must respond appropriately.

Speaker 1 (53:52.91)
Thank you. And what would your advice be for some of the youth in this world? Just to finish off on that, since that's a generation you deal a lot with.

Yeah, so it's their future and they should not allow any decisions be made without their input. So they have to stand up because of course, this is something they are going to deal with forever. So they have to stand up, particularly be in the front line to defend their community. That's why basically we're building out, you know, community response in which young people are taking the charge because young people are open to change and they are happy.

to actually make a change for their community when they're given the opportunity. So if they have the capacity and they have the trust and the leadership, they will do right. And that is why we're responding by working with them because for us, young people globally represent a voice for good, a voice for change, a voice for a tomorrow that we all want.

they actually do not even have any choice, you know. So for me, my advice or my word would be you have an enormous opportunity, knowledge that probably are not around 10, 15 years ago are now out there. So young people must develop themselves, build capacity and those capacity, we enable them to be able to lead and lead better because the word that we currently have today is

Too divided, too divided. You cannot believe the difference when you travel from one country to another or from one continent to another. The challenges that people face, how divided, how inequality, the amount of inequality that exists. If you continue, we continue to build a fragile future that is not safe, not secure for anyone. So.

Speaker 2 (55:59.82)
The young people globally, wherever they found themselves have the opportunity to be able to build capacity and lead differently and lead better for a world that is truly because it's actually possible for us to have a world that is more equal and where women, men have opportunity to be able to be the best they can. And of course, build a better society for the coming generation and generation and generation.

very wise words to end our show today. Hamid, thank you so much for joining us on Resilient Earth Radio and Podcast. And thank you, Scott and Tree Mercer, for joining me today to be here to bring out some very important questions. Thank all of you so much. Thank you. It's been a pleasure speaking with you and keep up the good fight.

Thank you very much for having me. It's really a pleasure.

and I'm very happy to learn about the work that Scott and she are doing. And of course, I continue to follow your work.

Oh, please do. Please do. That'd be great. Let's keep in touch. And best wishes for your evening and for the rest of your week. I hope it's less hectic. hectic, yeah. Ha ha, he laughs.

Speaker 4 (57:18.926)
Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye.

Bye bye. Take care.

Thanks for listening to the Resilient Earth Podcast, where we talk about critical issues and positive actions for our planet.

Resilient Earth is produced by Planet Centric Media, a 501c3 nonprofit, and Sea Storm Studios Inc., located on the rugged North Sonoma Coast of Northern California. I'm Leigh Anne Lindsey, producer and host, along with co-hosts co-producers Scott and Tree Mercer of Mendonoma Whale and Seal Study located on the South Mendocino and North Sonoma Coasts.

you

Speaker 1 (58:06.869)
and feel

Mendocino.

Speaker 3 (58:15.682)
The music for this podcast is by Eric Allaman, an international composer, pianist, and writer living in the Sea Ranch. Discover more of his music, animations, ballet, stage, and film work at ericolloman.com. You can find Resilient Earth on Spotify, Apple, and Amazon podcasts, iHeartRadio, YouTube, Soundcloud,

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