Beyond The Threshold: Black Voices in Media
Beyond the Threshold is a bi-weekly podcast hosted by award winning sound editor & producer, Sidney Evans.
This show is dedicated to interviewing black professionals in the media space in variety of roles, highlighting the lessons and experiences it takes to achieve success in the field.
The goal is to build a platform that connects and supports those established in media, while also inspiring those looking to break into the industry.
Beyond The Threshold: Black Voices in Media
Ep.8 : Pioneering Passion in Podcasting w/ John Asante
Text Beyond the Threshold w/ your thoughts or questions!
In this episode of Beyond the Threshold, host Sidney Evans is joined by John Asante, a Ghanaian American, award-winning independent audio producer, showrunner, and consultant based in Los Angeles.
John has produced and developed over 30 podcasts for various outlets, including HBO, Netflix, Hartbeat, Audible and Imagine Entertainment and worked for companies such as Street Studios, Neon Hum Media, and Stitcher.
Also, John independently hosted and produced Play It Back, a podcast telling stories of how music lovers discovered the songs that have changed their lives.
In this episode they discuss:
- His time at WRAS and Sirius XM that shaped his skills and passion for audio.
- How he adapted his public radio skills to the podcasting landscape.
- Navigating the freelance landscape as a minority in the audio industry.
- Setting rates and the importance of networking.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a review!
Love the Show? Please consider a donation to help us keep the podcast going.
How to support & connect with Sidney
Check out more of Beyond the Threshold
Book a free discovery call
Podcast Audit/Consultation
Instagram & Threads
Linkedin
How to support & connect with John
A showrunner on the basis is the person making sure on the daily and weekly level that everybody knows what they're doing and setting the course of action for a podcast from start to finish, from like the idea and the development, all the way to the launch.
Sidney Evans:Tune in as we give flowers to Black men and women making waves in the audio industry. I'm your host, sidney Evans, and this is Beyond the Threshold. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Beyond Threshold. I'm your host, sidney Evans, an award-winning audio editor, mixer and producer. For those of you who don't know, on this show I interview Black men and women working in the audio industry to highlight the lessons and experiences it takes to achieve success in the field. We got another great episode in store for today, as well as another amazing guest.
Sidney Evans:And preparing for this interview and doing research for this guest, obviously LinkedIn kind of creates the outline for their career and kind of get a feel for the person. So as I was doing that, I found myself looking at the recommendations. It was nothing but positive things, kind words and that's the vibe I kind of got from him and just communicating with him to get on and record this episode. So to give you a little bit on his background he's a Ghanaian-American and award-winning independent audio producer, showrunner and consultant based in Los Angeles. He has over 15 years in the audio world which have been devoted to crafting stories that shine a light on Black and Brown people, as well as folks from marginalized communities. He has produced and developed over 30 podcasts for various outlets, including HBO, netflix, heartbeat, audible and Imagine Entertainment. He also independently hosted and produced Play it Back, a podcast telling stories of how music lovers discovered the songs that have changed their lives, and, before forming his own production company, he was a showrunner on various podcasts for Pineapple Street Studios, neon Home Media and Stitcher.
Sidney Evans:So, without further ado, I'd like to introduce today's guest, john Asante. Welcome to the show. Thanks, man, thanks for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Outside of the skills and ability, I generally like to have people on who are talented but also good people, and that tends to reflect in the work and the relationships that you build professionally and through your personal life as well. So, first and foremost, just kind of want to get a little bit of background on you in general as a person and then we can get into like your inspiration and influences that made you want to get into the audio world. What kind of was the motivation for you to take in this career path?
John Asante:Yeah, sure. So, as you said, I'm Ghanian American, whole famous from Ghana. I'm first generation. It was interesting from the beginning because nobody in my family is in really a creative space until, like this current generation, only a couple of my cousins and stuff. So going the audio route as something in entertainment was not something that I was exposed to.
John Asante:I grew up between New Jersey and Georgia, but Atlanta's home, and I think what really got me into pursuing a career in audio or some form of entertainment was watching a ton of sports that are growing up. Like you, I was into sports, played baseball, basketball, soccer, so on and so forth, a bunch of other stuff and Stuart Scott rest in peace was one of my huge inspirations from his catchphrases like boo yeah, and all of his energy and the way he reported these stories was so amazing that when I was 15, 16 in high school, I was like I want to do that. So I started off writing for my high school's newspaper, went to college at Georgia State University, knew right away I wanted to do journalism and went in thinking I was going to be a TV reporter and work my way up to, hopefully, cnn or ESPN one day, and along the way I wrote for my school's newspaper, did some reporting for our TV station, but our TV station shut down so a lot of us who were doing reporting went over to the radio station WRAS shout out to 88.5, album 88, because it was like really well respected. The frequency of the station went all over Atlanta and I came in just like reporting the news at the top of the hour a couple of days a week. Then I saw the DJs and I was like I can do that. They don't really have like the best speaking voices. I had always been like really big on like the performance of audio and radio and after I saw him do it a bit I was like I I knew that this is something I could do.
John Asante:I had a passion for music a bit of playing, but mostly going to shows, collecting CDs, just getting my hands on anything I could, and I just loved the range of music they were playing. It was all like indie, underground stuff. We didn't play anything mainstream, although it was one of the first stations to really put outcasts on the map before they went huge. So I became a DJ um doing kind of like regular rotation during the week and then I became um a co-host of a blues show with my friend uh shout out to Kyle Stapleton who, um, encouraged me to do it with him, even though I didn't know a ton about the blues at the time. And that rolled into also me doing more um on air work with the news station or the news side of the station, and I ended up becoming the news director by my senior year and hosting what would have been a podcast at the time this was like 2008. So podcasting wasn't nearly as big of a thing, more so a hobby, and I did this public affairs show. I was kind of like interviewing whoever famous came through the station or different professors and stuff, and it was just really fun. I loved doing it and it was great. I interviewed comedians, actors, writers. It was just really, really great to have that access.
John Asante:And I had an internship in DC at Sirius XM summer before my senior year and that's what really motivated me to be like, oh, I want to do this. I was a producer production intern on the public radio channel of Sirius this is before they merged with XM was like the same summer and I basically got to work on a show called the Bob Edwards Show, which was kind of like fresh air, but done by a different guy who used to host Morning Edition but then had left to go to Sirius when Sirius was first getting out really big deals. And I got to meet all those people who were former NPR producers and at the time I barely listened to NPR, I barely knew about it. I did not grow up in a house of public radio. It was either radio or CNN or some other news, local news and I started to learn about how to create stories without the visuals, with audio, and it was amazing. I was like this is challenging but this is really fun. I got to pitch a few different people to interview and a few different topics to cover and I got to produce three full interviews on my own, like 30, 40 minute long interviews during that internship and I was like this is more than I've done in any of my classes that were more so video production based. And that was the light bulb that went off. I was like I came back as a news director hosting that show, being like, okay, this is what we're going to do. I'm like my motivation was to go back to DC after I graduated during the worst economy at least back then um, and become a um, a public radio producer, and so, yeah, I think I kind of shelved the like the TV dream of sorts, because I realized how much um, how much intimacy there was in audio and how much I could do. And, yeah, that was my motivation.
John Asante:Summer, after I graduated from college, I did not have a job lined up, at least a full-time job. I had like a temp job at my school, working in like the what do we call it? The commencement office, like planning the graduation ceremonies. But I was like I'm going back to DC, somehow, somehow got a last minute internship at NPR, working on Weekend, all Things Considered, and from there I got to learn the tricks of the trade for public radio. I got to work on some intern projects, got to just chat up anybody I could, the likes of Ari Shapiro and Michelle Martin folks that are still there today and I was like this is it? I think I want to do it and that's what led me in, because my, my action, my career started in public radio and I got my first job at the end of 2009. And that's kind of what charted the course. But I will pause it here.
Sidney Evans:Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's actually a good place for me to jump in Cause. I just wanted to say, like um and me pursuing media, like I went to um, to Fayetteville State University, and was in a mass communications department and a lot of like outside of these, like obviously Georgia State is bigger and Fayetteville State's a smaller HBCU in North Carolina, but a lot of the times, like our education and what we're exposed to there, it's like very broad and you kind of have an idea of what you want to do but you may not necessarily get to do it within the context of going to school. Like for me, sports was a was a big thing for me. Like I originally majored in mass comm because I wanted to be like a broadcaster sports broadcaster and I I did all these other things in um during my time there and learned and to to kind of tie it all in.
Sidney Evans:You know, a lot of times we start off wanting to do things and then you get exposed to something and it kind of takes you down a whole path. Like I don't think there's too many young, uh, you know, uh, black kids growing up saying, well, I want to do public radio. Like I don't think that's a thing. You could end up doing it, obviously, and take a liking to it, but I don't think you go into it with that being the goal. But as far as your experience in public radio, how long did you work in public radio?
John Asante:Total of seven years, five at NPR from 2009 to 2014. And then I left for a bit, then came back at WNYC and lived in New York for about from 2016 to 2017.
Sidney Evans:Cool. So how did you? I guess a question would be like what were some things that you learned? That kind of you, looking back on it, now realized like okay, these are really foundational skills and it's something that kind of I was able to carry with me throughout the course of your entire career. And obviously we'll get into the things that you did afterwards. But I'm just curious about what were those foundational things that, looking back on, you saw they're very important.
John Asante:Yeah for sure. Number one editing is key, whether it's your script writing, you're editing audio, and I'll probably use this interchangeably. At NPR they would say cutting tape in a way you're thinking about, also about as a listener how long should this last, how long is it going to be interesting? How long can I keep a listener's attention? What do I get out of this? What are they getting out of this? So that was huge for me.
John Asante:Also, in terms of cutting tape, kind of finding the balance between what should stay and what shouldn't stay, I think it's evolved a bit. Where it used to be cut out all the errs and ums and cut out all the breaths and stuff like that, or a lot of them, no-transcript. I learned how to work on deadlines because the first couple jobs I had were news-based and you it was like you come in either knowing what you're going to work on for the day which might air later and this is when I worked on talk of the nation and you would work on that or you get the assignment that morning like we'd be in the pitch meeting and you're like, okay, cool. And, mind you, when I was working on the show, the war in Afghanistan was still going. So a lot of what we were covering was that, and so it'd be like, okay, cool, we need to book this someone who works in policy to figure out what's Obama's next move in Afghanistan, and I wasn't too well versed on it, so I had to like, within a few hours, I had to like figure out who to book, like read through articles, be like, okay, this person has a good take, we need to book this person.
John Asante:Either I find them by like email, phone, they're like press person. What have you Get them into a studio, write a quick script for our host, write questions, make sure all that went through right. And it was a live show, so I also had to screen calls. So it was all about deadlines and when I tell people that that I had to do that in like four hours, they're like that's crazy, because with podcasting we have so much time. But I think having that sense of timeliness and just hitting deadlines was super, super important. I'd say those are like the biggest things I took away from public radio, for sure. Yeah.
Sidney Evans:I think that's kind of good to have to start off with something that is there I both they're both audio mediums but starting from something that is a little more stressful and strenuous. And then when you kind of make a transition to something else that is a little more tame or is not as fast paced, obviously it's actually better than you know the, the, then vice versa, having to maybe start off in podcasting and then, oh, I want to do public radio and you're like, oh, this is much more fast paced, the speed at which things can move can be overwhelming. So, uh, that, and obviously I think another big thing you said is you know, learn how to write questions, scripts or whatever like the writing aspect of it, because that is the foundation, and I I harp on this almost in every interview, but I do that for a reason because it's very important. If you're an editor, or, obviously, if you produce, you're expected to be able to write more. But if you want to continue to build your career and be more valuable, the better you write, the more valuable you'll be.
Sidney Evans:That's something that I definitely learned. So, to actually make the transition. So you said you worked in public radio for seven years, correct? Yeah, what prompted the transition into podcasting? Was it something that you were, that you did consciously, or was it just the nature of how things were evolving?
John Asante:I think it was a bit of both, but more so the latter, because when I was in public radio I can think the first time NPR was starting to get into podcasts the only real podcast they had was Planet Money and I was listening to it all the time, but I didn't think of it as a podcast as we usually do, where I'm only listening to it on the Apple Podcasts app I guess back then it was iTunes. Spotify wasn't doing podcasts back then, so I saw that there was a different way to tell stories. For plenty of money they would air the stuff both on radio and as a podcast, and that's something that NPR used to do a lot and I think still does to some extent. But it was more so the evolution of the medium. I actually left public radio, coincidentally months before Serial came out, and so I switched to doing this marketing job, kind of felt like I wanted to do audio stuff on the side. Audio projects want to evolve my career. I thought I wanted to go get an MBA in marketing. I didn't and I think that was a very financially sound decision.
John Asante:But I saw how it was booming because of Serial and how much money was going into it, but more so the craft and how it was evolving and how all my public radio skills directly translated, especially from a show that came from folks from this American Life, and also as I saw the podcast or other radio shows really start to focus on the podcast side, I go, oh, I can I cut tape, I write, I can book guests, I have all this, I can do it. And for me it didn't feel as limiting Like that's why I also created Play it Back was that I knew I was never going to pitch it as like an NPR show, like it's like super hard to get an NPR show made or even just like a public radio show made on a station unless you have the ends or you have a good pitch or you know what have you. But I was like I can do this myself, like I have the agency to do it myself, like we all know it's a low barrier to entry. But then as I saw it evolve into more of like a structured, profitable, like medium that was evolving and that this Wild West scene was open, I was like, oh, I can capitalize on this, like I know what I'm doing, I can bring like really viable skills to helping out a team and so, actually, when I went back into public radio in 2016 at wyc, my first gig there was on a podcast.
John Asante:Before I went back to doing a radio show I worked on there Goes the Neighborhood, which was this seven-part series. I think it was seven parts. Anyways, the first season that I worked on was about the gentrification of Brooklyn at the time being, but just over the course of decades, and having lived in Brooklyn in Crown Heights, I was seeing it happen firsthand and it was wild. It was a temp job that led into finally, thankfully, a full-time job. But the fact that we didn't we weren't adherent to, like the radio deadlines and we were able to work on something at length and it was a narrative podcast which I had been wanting to work on.
John Asante:After years of doing live, live radio, lively tape, even worked on a game show at NPR. This was like a breath of fresh air and I just realized, as a producer, how many different things I could do and it wasn't just about writing and cutting tape. I actually ended up kind of becoming this was kind of like the beginning of me doing sort of a bit of show running. I realized there were like several different departments not talking to each other, like the newsroom wasn't talking to the podcast unit and the marketing and social media folks weren't talking to the editors and producers and the hosts. I was like let's bring it all together and it was beautiful. We came up with and I think the podcast did really well and it led to two more seasons in two different cities and I was like this is what I want to do. I want to really be in the podcasting side of things instead of just radio.
Sidney Evans:Okay, I'm glad you you segue perfectly into one of my questions.
Sidney Evans:I like to define things for people, because those who obviously we're in the audio world and this obviously is a platform for those already in audio too but for those who are very early on or anything in between, from you know early on to to season, like defining the terms, because obviously you go from you know film, tv and podcasting, there, uh, there are different terms within each medium, but then there are also similar terms, but they can be different things contextual to the medium. So, um, before we get more into your show running experience, can you actually define it for us and then, uh, go into the experiences you have had with being a showrunner?
John Asante:Sure, yeah. So a showrunner on the basis is the person making sure on the daily and weekly level that everybody knows what they're doing and setting the course of action for a podcast from start to finish, from like the idea and the development, all the way to the launch, and for anybody looking for a job as a showrunner if there are any out there I'm not sure right now. It's a really tough time in the industry, as I'm sure you guys know. Sometimes that job is listed as managing producer, senior managing producer. It's one step below an executive producer, basically. Also, even sometimes senior producers end up doing showrunner-type jobs and these terms get interchanged depending on where you're working and all that stuff.
John Asante:Yeah, I see supervising producer a lot too. Supervising producer also, in my opinion, falls under showrunner. But yeah, you're the one setting the course of action, making sure everybody knows what they're doing. I think one of the biggest things is keeping people on track, on schedule, to get everything done. Um, are you hitting the deadlines? Do we have the guest book in time? Are we getting our mixes done in time? Um, does everything sound good?
John Asante:Usually the sir runner is one of the last people in some of the jobs I've had to listen to and do like a final qc of the audio before it goes out. So you're kind of the last line of defense, whereas, like, the executive producers usually comes in and out like they're in the beginning with like the ideation and development and the pre-production, and they might pop out because they're doing a lot more of the higher level stuff. You know, making sure that, like, sponsorships and ads are getting set, maybe working with a partner if you're doing like production with another company to make sure everything's set, figuring out how the show just gets out and makes money in some ways Actually that is part of it, I should say Securing other deals for other shows in a network or a production company. So, yeah, you as a showrunner, you're usually concentrating on that one or two shows that go on and also putting out fires. That's a part of it too. It's not a sexy job, but someone's got to do it.
John Asante:That's what I always say about show running and the reason why I've been using show running instead of these other producer jobs. A lot of these other jobs senior producer, supervising producer, managing producer get interchange. And when I talked to someone, actually when I was networking out here in LA several years ago, like before the pandemic, and I told someone what I did at some like podcasting event and I think they worked in TV or film and they said, oh, that sounds a lot like show running and TV. And I go, oh, I don't even know what a show runner is. But then they explained it and it is pretty similar. I mean, they do definitely other stuff, but it is a very translatable term to help folks in other entertainment industries understand what you do.
Sidney Evans:Okay. So yeah, you actually mentioned I'm glad you well, first of all, thank you for explaining that. And then you also mentioned I guess this is a good opportunity to point out but you were networking with someone in LA and I forgot to put this in my notes but like the build a relationships part of it, just kind of this evolution that you go through with when you're developing a skill, then you get good at it, then you start finding work and things like that especially. You know, speaking from my experience, I got the reason I love audio so much is a big part of it is the technical side of things, is the technical side of things. And then it evolved into more the creative and that was kind of like a I get to fulfill, you know, the left and right brain aspect of it.
Sidney Evans:But then, you know, then you kind of got to start venturing into like understanding the business and then also like building relationships and stuff which is like kind of the hard part of it. You know, obviously learning the skill is hard, but that's the kind of stuff is just like man, why can't I just do the thing and then just stuff, just, you know, fall on my plate or in my lap and it doesn't necessarily work that way. So I guess two questions First is what is your approach to networking or building relationships? And then second is like, how has that led to opportunities in your career?
John Asante:My approach is to kind of make sure that there's a give and take, that it's not a one-sided sort of networking thing. I'm not coming in and asking for, hey, do you have a contact at this company? Or hey, can you help me book this person? I want to be able to help that person out too, like if they're looking for a job or trying to connect with someone at a company, that I can help them out too. Because I noticed within the first year or so living in LA, when someone would be like, hey, let's go to lunch. I took it as, even though I lived in New York and DC beforehand, atlanta, which all have their own entertainment hubs In my mind I was like, oh, they want to go to lunch and be friends, this is great. And then I get to the end of the lunch and they're like, hey, yo, so what can you do for me? I mean without saying that, and I would sometimes stupidly go yeah, sure, I'll connect you with that person. Or yeah, I'll teach you how I do my job. And then a buddy of mine's like you can't do that, you got to get them to charge you for that. And I was like I can do that. They're like, yeah, that's consulting and so, yeah, I think that's it.
John Asante:Another way is, if it's not necessarily a give and take symbiotic relationship or a bartering thing, then my next approach and I've done this more as an independent producer who now runs their own production company is that that I need to make sure people pay me for my skills, like I went to school for this. I've done this for nearly about 15 years. I've like gone through it, I've grinded. I'm not going to give away my information for free. So it's like, you know, it's no about knowing how much you're worth, like state your rate.
John Asante:And that really got rid of a lot of people for me. Like there'd be. I'd be like, hey, my rate is this and they, and then nothing, I wouldn't hear from them. Or I'd say that my rate is this and they go cool, can we negotiate? And I said, okay, you know, we'll figure something out. Or they'd be like, great, you know. And I think my other approach is like come with a sense of humility and respect and niceness, but not being too nice, because I have tried not to burn any bridges in my career. Sure, there's a couple of folks that I'm. Maybe I haven't put off, but maybe I feel put off by them because they didn't feel like they respected me or really believed in my career path or what I was trying to do.
John Asante:I'm not going to name these forces, but I know how it goes but yeah, I was like, I was like I'm sure you can relate, but, um, as a black man in this industry and being like in the minority, really it's like you have to kind of keep up this thing of like what makes you like a viable candidate or a person to like, then tap years later, like, like. Here's a prime example when I worked at NPR, when I did my second job, I moved from DC to New York. This was back in 20, gosh, it was like the end of 2012, beginning of 2013. I worked on a show called Ask Me Another, and one of the partners for the show because it was a co-production between NPR and WNYC he and I were pretty friendly. We'd always chat at the live shows that we did live to, tape shows that we taped in Brooklyn.
John Asante:And years later, when I was actually trying to move out to LA and trying to apply to a job at Stitcher, I looked on LinkedIn and I was like, oh man, he's at Stitcher. This is great. Let me just send him a note, let's see what happens. And I didn't even send him a note to say, hey, could you put in a good recommendation for me? I just said hi, been a minute. Hope you're doing well. I'm applying for the senior producer job. Do you think I'd be a good fit? I could have gone further to say, hey, can we chat? And at the time I didn't really have that mindset. But no-transcript.
Sidney Evans:You kind of got to strike a balance. You want to be assertive, you want to be proactive, but you don't want to be annoying or pushy or disrespectful or completely self-serving. You kind of got to strike a balance but, like you mentioned, especially with the state of the industry and hopefully it won't last forever. But just applying to job postings and just praying and wishing that doesn't work. You got to have some type of connection, whether it's we have to have some type of connection or find other ways to make you stand out from the crowd. Whether it's we have to have some type of connection or find other ways to you know make you stand out from the crowd, whether it's like creating content or, you know, hosting a podcast or things like that. So, where you're, you're top of mind. You're like, ok, this person really stands out for the crowd.
Sidney Evans:And I also I know you briefly mentioned you know charging what you're worth and you know not giving away everything. And you know you know making sure that there's a value exchange. Have you, in terms of the audio industry, like something that I see, um, that maybe it's undervalued a little bit, so people aren't as well more willing to pay as equitable as you think they should. I guess this is a striking balance thing too, too, because if you're just starting, you want to get opportunities so you may be able to do things for free, to build your resume or for cheap, and, you know, not be in such scarcity that you're willing to walk away when you know people can't like meet the standards or the prices or the value that you see for yourself.
John Asante:Yeah, that's a. This is a tough one. I'm going to try to give it in a way that is broad, more broad, partly because and maybe for those starting out partly because I had I was working in this industry like at least 10 years before I started charging people for like consulting type things and then went on my own, so I already kind of knew literally what I was worth. I talked to folks. I basically took like how much I was making in my last job, divided it down to like how much it was per hour, read some stuff and then tweaked it by adding about 20 to 30% to that Because, as someone who's independently employed, I'm not getting 401k benefits or medical benefits or other stuff through an employer, so I need to make up for that and then going from there, and so I set that rate and then, depending on who I'm working with, what I would do is, if it's a company, like a corporation or a big place, I'm like you can pay more and people even told me that it was a matter of talking to folks I'm like I'm going to upcharge it a bit. If it's someone, maybe on my similar level, I'm going to hit that regular rate. But if it's like a friend and family, or someone younger in their career, maybe someone who seems like a mentee or is a mentee, that kind of depends. I'll give something a bit lower, I think.
John Asante:For in terms of building up to that point of when do you charge, I think it also depends on how much you've done.
John Asante:Like if you've done maybe an internship or like even I would even say maybe like even have like entry levellevel job or two, I think you could start off by kind of doing what I did of like taking that rate you were, you were charged, and go from there and kind of toggle with it.
John Asante:Um, but also give the example that, like would you go to a lawyer and just say, hey, yo can you help me for free? Like would you go to an accountant, would you go to think about all the other industries that are out there? Just because the barrier to entry is low in podcasting and anybody could do it, doesn't mean because you have those skills, you should give those away for free. And it's like you almost have to turn the question to that person. I think there's maybe some give and take where maybe you do a little bit for less to start. But I think once you get those credentials up and you've got those like reps under your belt and you've done stuff independently and maybe maybe done some freelance stuff here and there for folks like, stay your worth, like for sure, do it. I wish I did it sooner.
Sidney Evans:Yeah, I'm glad you said that because Because when I started working at Frequency, our CEO was very transparent about including us in not just the department that we're in, but like, okay, this is a potential client, we're going to pitch them.
Sidney Evans:This is the deck. And I started to see numbers and stuff and I was like, wow, these are the type of numbers that are being thrown around. And then also when I joined, like these communities like air media and pod people, I started to see, like you know, because pod people used to have a weekly thing where they would get clients and then they would reach out to the people based on their profile to try to fill those roles. And probably within a week or two of signing up, they reached out to me because I think it was like an engineer got to you, got to be okay with the no, but I can sleep knowing that, okay, this is what I charge, this is the rate, because I know the numbers that's out there and you know, as people say, you know, put some respect to my name, but just respect me and what I do and the time for me to develop this skill and, you know, really pursue it and do it at a high level.
John Asante:Exactly, and I'm really glad you brought up those resources because part of it is that if you don't know what to charge, where do you go? And those air association of independence and radio um, they have a really great rate guide that they keep updating. I think they're actually working on a new update where they tell you what the levels are for producers, editors, engineers, uh, composers, how much you should be charging, and I would say they more so adhere to public radio type rates, so it's a little bit lower, but it's a really good starting point. I've used that once I went independent.
Sidney Evans:I just recently I actually last week I'm doing my first tape sync and I was like I've never done, I don't know what to charge. And and they were like, uh, what's the? Uh, I'll just play with it, pay whatever, like the rate, the industry rate is. And I was able to look it up and see what it was and and they were like, okay, well, that's, that's, that sounds good to us. So, um, those starting off, if you want, just want to get in the ball part where you're really trying to make the transition from doing stuff for cheap to, you know, stuff that's more sustainable, definitely take advantage of those, like I said, airmedia, podpeople and just Google. There's a lot of little, I guess, communities or sites or resources out there to where you can be informed about that type of stuff.
John Asante:Yeah, and this goes back to connections. Like I talked to my connections and said, hey, yo, what should I charge? What am I worth? And even if you don't have those connections, I feel like a lot of folks in the audio industry, especially those who've worked for companies, are usually pretty friendly about cold emails or call, not calls, I should say cold LinkedIn's emails. I've fielded plenty of them. I mean, honestly, it's a matter of just putting it out there and see who comes back. Sometimes people don't get back, for whatever reason, but those are the folks who can. You can also ask like this should be, like hey, I'm just trying to get to the point where people pay me, what do you think I should charge? Like, what are the rates here? Um, just to get an extra sense of what's going on, Okay, to transition a little bit.
Sidney Evans:So you worked in public radio, started working for podcast production companies and then you made the venture to do that independently. But I want you to speak on that, like maybe I guess some were some of the challenges and takeaways from that. And then also I saw your LinkedIn profile too, and you mentioned it a couple of times about mentoring, up and comers and things like that. And then also I saw your LinkedIn profile too, and you mentioned it a couple of times about mentoring, up and comers and things like that. What do you get out of mentoring and do you suggest others do it as well?
John Asante:Going independent was a huge undertaking. It was honestly something that I was incredibly afraid of for my entire career. I had heard so many horror stories of folks doing freelance pieces or production pieces for companies and having to chase down payroll and they're like am I going to make rent and what's out there? And it's changed quite a bit. I would say pre-sealed or post-serial, and just as the podcast industry has evolved, it's really changed a lot where the freelance market, the contract market, is different. But I think the biggest undertakings for me were like one how do I keep a sense of like constant work coming through? Because there were like one or two projects I worked on were very much freelance, where they were like hey, we're going to have you work on this like a couple hours a week here and there. You just invoice us when you're ready or you've hit a point or finished this episode, and so it was really sporadic. Some weeks it'd be five hours, some weeks it'd be 15. But most of the stuff, the vast majority of the stuff I do, is on contract. So these are like two, three, six, nine-month gigs, sometimes even a year, and I'm trying to keep at least a couple going at a time. So I think, because I had been paid biweekly my entire career, even as far back as my first job at Burger King when I was 15, I was used to getting a paycheck every other week, no matter how much or how little. It was, resetting my mindset to then be like, okay, you got to save some money and know that you may not get paid for like a month or two because of the way things go and the way that companies pay, and that's okay. You're going to have some months where you're making a bank and some months where it looks like you're in the red. So that was one of the biggest undertakings. Number two was just trying to figure out how do I do this all financially. What do I need to set up? I talked to folks about whether or not I should set up an LLC. They said yes, for a few purposes, a few reasons, my rate. How do I figure that out?
John Asante:Just like I went through the same thing that we just talked about figuring out how to do my taxes as an independent producer, contractor, small business owner, finally having to hire an accountant for that, which is crazy and I'm like dang. And it makes you really realize how much comes out of taxes. Because when you're a full-time employee, I don't think most of us really think about it. We're like, all right, cool, we're just seeing what the net worth is, how much we're making net. But now when you're a contractor, it's like 30%. You know, make sure you can pay for your medical bills and like your yourself, how do you pay yourself? But also keep stuff for later, your overhead and thankfully in an industry like this, your overhead should be pretty low, Like we're not. You know, subscriptions, maybe some gear here and there, bit of travel.
John Asante:And then it was like I think another undertaking or experience I went through is like, how do I keep these gigs consistent? Like, how am I reaching out to companies? How vocal do I need to be about like shouting from the rooftops saying, hey, I'm looking for work. How do I work on my connections to then lead to gigs? Cause it's kind of like so a lot of these are long games. Like it's changed and I will say my situation is atypical in a way. I mean, yes, everybody's situation doing the independent thing, small business thing is different, but mine is atypical in that and I will be pretty frank, and I said this when I finally announced this like publicly to my friends.
John Asante:A year into doing it, I was so nervous that it was going to fail. Was that when I left my last job at Pineapple Street Studios in 2022,? I left with a lot of skills, knowing how to balance multiple projects as a showrunner, knowing a lot of people in the industry. But also, I'm married. I have a wife who has a full-time job. I have medical benefits through her, so I didn't have to worry about that. We were able to pay the rent on the house we were renting at the time pretty easily because we had double income coming in. I had a good amount of the gear I needed already set up, like the recording gear I have. I'd already bought my full-time job. I also was able to save a good chunk of money before I went independent and I was able to.
John Asante:Really, I went with like a four month plan, going like okay, I'm going to aim to leave at this point, but if at the earliest, but I will stay around in this job until I need to. And I came out the gate being like I'm not just going to jump and leave and just try to figure it out. I want to leave with like one or two gigs secured and at the time, in 2022, this is like April I ended up landing At the time in 2022, this is like April. I ended up landing like I got like offers for three contract gigs straight up and I was very lucky. I feel very fortunate. I took two of those, One of those just time-wise.
John Asante:I was like I can't do everything and I was at a very fortunate point where I had too much work coming in that I couldn't do and I didn't want. I was not at the point where I wanted the subcontract. I thought that was going to be kind of messy. I wasn't planning to make my own company like a production company at the level of, like Pineapple Street Studios or, you know, Gimlet or a network or whatever. Like that was not my ambition. If anything, I was so stressed in my last job that I was thinking like, okay, if there's a way for me to like spread out the work a bit and maybe not be managing folks at the same time, maybe that's better for my health. Um, and so those, those are the experiences I went through and those are the big undertakings. But, um, it's been a trip. I mean, no, two days are the same. Um, it's the.
John Asante:I think the benefit of being independent is that it's allowed me to really kind of test out different places to work. Um, not to say that when I was like frustrated at my last job and looking for another job, that I had my choice of where to go, I wouldn't say that yeah, sure, I did some interviews here and there, but I was like, is the grass really going to be greener on the other side if I go to another company? But now, as an independent producer or contractor, I've worked with at least 10 other companies and you start to get the inner workings of how these companies work. Sure, contractors and freelancers to some extent are treated differently than full-time employees, but at least you get to kind of know the nature of their inner workings, like how they run stuff you know. So, in the event, if I ever did get hired by a company or went to try and apply for a full-time job later or do more work, then I know what I'm getting into.
John Asante:And then going to the mentoring part, I actually have done quite a bit of mentoring when I was a full-time employee, partly because a lot of the companies I work for were like hey, we bring in interns. Interns are part of the lifeblood of our company, especially at NPR, when they had an internship program which, unfortunately, I think they discontinued because of some budget cuts, which I'm very disappointed in, because a good amount of the staff were interns at some point, including myself, even before me, but I would be mentoring interns constantly, Like every semester. There was like there were new interns coming in. Uh, you know, I was contributing, helping them out, Cause people would help me out too in the three internships that I did and um, and I was helping them just make connections, literally learn how to cut tape, uh, how to write better, everything, and uh, now and then getting into, like, doing this all online during the pandemic, or even people in different States. I was able to figure out how to translate those skills online. It was a little trickier, but I did it. And now, working independently, I still do some mentoring, especially with the folks that I've already established relationships with in my past jobs. Those are the ones who I'm not necessarily going to charge per se, getting back some money for different skills, but they do know that, like they know what I'm worth and if, if it came to that, they would, Um, but this way of giving back.
John Asante:Now, as an independent person, it I had to strike a balance between how much do I can I do physically and how much do I want to do. You know, in terms of my work, like I got to put on my, like what's the thing with when you fly? It's like you got to put on your oxygen mask before someone else's. You know, I still like to do it. It's just a matter of when is it possible? And not necessarily what am I getting out of it, but really, like, legit, when is it possible? And I think I've been able to do that in some ways here and there, especially for folks reaching out, who are also going independent, who may be earlier in their career. I've done that with a few folks and that's been great to just sit down with them and be like, hey, I'm going to just straight up tell you what it's like and how much it's evolved, how much it's changed and what you should do. And it feels really good because a lot of the folks I'm doing this for actually at this point, I committed myself to do this like five years ago.
John Asante:I'm like I'm only, I don't care who thinks this is like weird or whatever. I don't think for this podcast they will, Cause you're interviewing black men, women, black people in the industry. But, like years ago, I was like I'm only giving advice to black and brown folks, people from marginalized communities, LGBTQ community, Like because I saw so many folks who, like maybe I gave a little bit of advice to um who were white, make leaps and bounds, sometimes even past me, and I was like this is the same right. You know, like I gotta be helping these folks who are, like, not as well represented in this, who may be doing this at a hobby level, a passion level, who really want to get to doing this as at professional level as well, that may not have the ins, that may not have been able to get an NPR or a production company. That's where I'm at. It's been really empowering for me. I just want to see the industry grow and I want to see more people like us in there.
Sidney Evans:Yeah, I mean that was the main motivation for the podcast, because I mean, like, you know, um, we, we are, we are a minority and you know, as optimistic and as skillful as you may be, um, you know when maybe the opportunities aren't coming as as and as abundantly as you would like.
Sidney Evans:You know.
Sidney Evans:So it kind of always comes up to into your mind, it's like especially when you're actively like applying to things here, and it just kind of always comes up to into your mind, is like especially when you're actively like applying to things you're, and it just kind of keeps you in the head like man, if I, my skin color was different, like would it be a little easier.
Sidney Evans:Like it's just hard not to, you know, ask yourself that. But then you kind of gotta, uh, you know, push it forward and you know, continue with, you know, forging ahead, like you know so, and especially during during this time, like it's like okay, once you commit to it, you got to see it through, like, no matter what waves of emotion, um, that you may, you may experience, that you know, once you decide like, whatever happens, I'm just gonna keep going, you do that. So, as far as the mentor thing, before we jump into the last, like which is kind of more rapid fire and general questions. If someone's listening to this and was like, okay, I want to have one takeaway that I can apply to my career, what would you like them to walk away with?
John Asante:If you have the idea and the passion for it, just do it. Go for it. For anybody I talked to who's like I want to make a podcast, and they've been thinking on it, mulling over it, for months, maybe years. I've been there before. I'm like just take a shot, take a shot at it, do it, even if you're doing it as a passion project or a hobby. You never know what it could lead to. I've seen plenty of people do that and now they have full-time jobs as audio producers, engineers, sound designers, editors. Now they have full-time jobs as audio producers, engineers, sound designers, editors. And it was just because they had that self-starting attitude and just drive to do it on their own and I think employers like that. It's helped me out too. I think that's probably the most succinct advice I can give.
Sidney Evans:I mean, this is what I'm doing. I've had this idea for this for years, so I love that advice. All right, so last, like I said, last portion of the show, and these are just. We start off with getting a little bit more about you as a person. Now we're going to end with your taste and your interest. So, favorite album of all time.
John Asante:God man, you can put me on the spot like that.
Sidney Evans:I was like man, man, I could do this. I tried to lead you in and get you get your mind going favorite album of all time like man.
John Asante:If this were by genre, I could do it, man. Um, okay, actually I got one. This probably is a one all across the board. Uh, midnight marauders by tribe called quest okay, I haven't.
Sidney Evans:Obviously I know who tribe called quest is, but I haven't. A lot of times, like I go through these phases of where I'm introduced, not introduced, well, like I'm aware of the group, the artists, producer, whatever, and you know, I kind of I've heard the stuff that plays on the radio, like the real popular stuff, but then at some point I go down that road of, okay, I'm gonna go listen to everything they've done and really appreciate it, you know, be able to consume it for what it is. And I actually was. There was a movie me and my girlfriend just watched it. It was the Sonali, the Wesley Snipes. I forgot the name of the movie, but Q-Tip was in it because she was like a singer and they were working together. And I think that was a sign because I watched that and then you just mentioned that. So I think I need to go listen to, like all tribe stuff. Yes and yes, yes.
John Asante:And really, you know, give them their flowers for for what they have done.
Sidney Evans:Okay, um so next favorite producer, hip-hop army producer. Well, I guess it doesn't have to be just black favorite are?
John Asante:you talking about music producer or music producer? Yes, oh, I think I gotta say pharrell pharrell yeah, oh, always been a fan from, from, uh, the neptunes, but oh my god, I mean the neptunes. So many of those beats just like remind, like, just like mark my childhood and my and my teen years from the neptunes to nerd, to clips. Oh my god, love what they've done. God Love what he's done with Clipse and just so many artists afterward. I just think he's incredibly talented and creative.
Sidney Evans:Yeah, yeah. Can I go wrong with Pharrell?
John Asante:Yeah, okay, next Favorite film score or soundtrack Ooh, favorite film score or soundtrack I want to go toward. Oh my God, I'm trying to think if it's a Spike Lee movie and I'm completely forgetting which one it is. Oh my God, is it? Do the Right Thing. I think I got to say Do the Right Thing, yeah, yep, do the Right Thing, yep.
Sidney Evans:Okay, and last favorite TV theme song.
John Asante:Oh man, this is a good one, Cause I'm like I've been hitting this nostalgia point. Oh man, I feel like it's between the fresh Prince and, weirdly enough, family matters Family matters.
Sidney Evans:Those are the I'm like and one of the episodes that I just recently put out, cause most people so far have said fresh Prince, yeah, but I didn't want to say Fresh Prince, so I said Family Matters because that's like the most TV theme songy I could think of. But then later on I started thinking of older ones like Sanford and Son and Jeffersons and stuff like that.
John Asante:Yeah, when they tell the plot of the show in the theme song, which is not a thing anymore. Yeah, tell the plot of the, of the, the show in the theme song which is not a thing anymore, you know, or?
Sidney Evans:yeah, they don't. They just try to make it as short as possible.
John Asante:Now get get into it and if it is short, like any, any like netflix or max is like skip intro. Yeah, you can skip because they know that attention span is short, so they give you that option actually, you know, I thought of one that really is my favorite keenan and cal keen, oh, and Kel, oh, that's a good one.
Sidney Evans:That's a good one. That's a good one too. I forgot about those.
John Asante:I mean just like Coolio doing Kenan and Kel, and wasn't all that, was that TLC, it was TLC. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I got to say Kenan and Kel because Coolio is just so good on that. Oh my God that was that was.
Sidney Evans:That was a good, that's a good one, man, I forgot about that one completely. All right, yeah, brad, those are. Those are some great, great, great responses, Some new stuff, some stuff we haven't heard on the show so far. But yeah, I think we can wrap up here. Man, before we hop off, I do want you to would appreciate if you could share where we can find you, connect with you, look at more. I know we got into like, the skill itself, but we didn't mention as much as the actual shows, the things that you worked on. So where can they, like you know, find all that stuff, listen to it if they would like to? If there's anything upcoming that you would like to promote, you could take the time to do that as well. Sure.
John Asante:Yeah, so you can find all the work that I've done all 30 something podcasts and radio shows on my website, johnassanticom A-S-A-N-T-E. That's how you spell it, let's see. Oh, on social media I'm really just on Instagram, I'm at thejohnassanti T-H-E, john Assanti, and Twitter, sometimes at JKBSante, and not really on the TikTok, though I should probably get on it. I'm resisting, not because I don't like it, just because I know it's going to suck up my time. And then the most recent, my current, I guess, client project, to put it professionally, with a show I'm producing right now.
John Asante:It's a show called One Song. It's a music analysis podcast. So, if you like, shows like Song Exploder or Switched On Pop or Broken Record, it's kind of in that realm. So every episode we break down one song from the pop culture canon from the past 60 years, everything from hip hop to pop rock, r&b, funk, soul, jazz, disco. You can see I've rehearsed this but we break down the cultural significance of the song, why it's important, why you should listen to it again, and then we break it down stem by stem, like the x-ray of the song. You get to hear the isolated drums, the vocals, the keyboards, the anything, and it's it's just such a fun show. I've really enjoyed it. I've produced episodes on, like Miley Cyrus' Flowers, the Weeknd's Can't Feel my Face Gosh. It's been a bunch, it's amazing. So, yeah, check it out.
Sidney Evans:One song Okay, yeah, I'm very, very curious. I'm going to have to go check that out. How does that work with, like does that fall under fair use?
John Asante:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. That's how I was about to say Okay.
Sidney Evans:I was about to say, cause if y'all, if you want to just play it, you might have to get it to like public domain, which is from like 1915 or something.
John Asante:Yeah.
Sidney Evans:Okay, just just just curious Very good question.
John Asante:Yeah, fair use. Fair use is up for it. Yeah.
Sidney Evans:Okay, well, cool man. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I'm going to check that out and if everybody listening, visit his website and check out the other things stuff as well. But, like I said, appreciate you coming on, enjoyed having you on. Thanks and for those listening, I'll catch you on the next episode. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Please don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review. If you'd like to work with me or connect, please go to soundbysitcom and schedule a call there. You can also check out the full list of productions I've worked on. If you'd like to connect on social media, my handle is soundbysetcom on Twitter and Instagram and I'm Sidney Evans on LinkedIn. Don't forget to follow Beyond the Threshold on Instagram as well. I'll catch you on the next episode.