Finding Common Ground in a Fractured America - How Compassion Bridges Our Divides

Sometimes the most powerful conversations happen when we least expect them. What started as a casual planning call between friends the day after the 2024 presidential election quickly evolved into something much more meaningful – a raw, unfiltered exploration of how we might heal our divided nation.

As the initial shock and disappointment of election night settled in, Chi and I found ourselves wrestling with profound questions: How do we move forward? What does this political moment reveal about our collective consciousness? Is there wisdom to be found in the discomfort?

We dive deep into Spiral Dynamics, a fascinating model that maps the evolution of human consciousness through various stages. This framework offers a compassionate lens for understanding why people who seem so different from us think the way they do. Rather than viewing Trump supporters (or anyone with opposing views) as enemies to be converted or obstacles to be overcome, what might happen if we approached them with genuine curiosity about their context, fears, and needs.

The conversation takes unexpected turns as we examine the paradoxical shadow side of progressive thinking – how the most "evolved" consciousness can sometimes be the most judgmental, creating cancel culture that leaves no room for redemption or growth. We share personal stories of navigating relationships with people whose politics differ dramatically from our own, and the surprising wisdom that emerges when we refuse to place others in simplistic "good" or "evil" boxes.

Drawing inspiration from individuals like Daryl Davis (a Black musician who befriended KKK members and helped hundreds leave the organization) and Marshall Rosenberg (creator of Nonviolent Communication), we contemplate what becomes possible when we focus on our shared humanity rather than our ideological differences.

Whether you're feeling hopeful, devastated, or somewhere in between after this election, this conversation offers a different path forward – one of compassion, curiosity, and the radical integration of perspectives that might just be our best hope for collective healing.

Have thoughts to share? I'd love to hear from you through my website or social channels. Together, let's explore what it means to give each other permission to be our full selves, even – perhaps especially – when we disagree.

Learn more about Chi and contact him directly through these links: https://linktr.ee/chi.infinite

Learn more about Daryl Davis here:

How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes

Why I, as a black man, attend KKK rallies. | Daryl Davis | TEDx Naperville

Chapters

• 0:00 Unplanned Podcast After the Election
• 5:28 Compassion Over Division
• 12:27 Spiral Dynamics and Consciousness Stages
• 22:40 The Shadow of Cancel Culture
• 36:10 Integration and Understanding Different Perspectives
• 55:37 Finding Nuance in a Polarized World

Transcript

Gregg Berman: 0:02

Today's podcast is a bit different from previous episodes. In fact, it was never intended to be a podcast. I got together with my friend Chi to discuss and plan what we wanted to share in a future podcast episode. Yet as it was the day after the 2024 presidential election, the conversation immediately went in a very different and unanticipated direction. After the call, we both felt it was a conversation worth sharing. The conversation immediately went in a very different and unanticipated direction After the call, we both felt it was a conversation worth sharing. At its essence, what both Chi and I discuss in a variety of ways are the concepts of compassion and curiosity for others' views and our shared belief that demonizing, attacking and or disowning others for believing something different simply entrenches the divide already there. It creates enemies instead of allies.

Gregg Berman: 0:54

While a different context, it brings to mind the story of Daryl Davis, a black musician who was invited as a guest to many Ku Klux Klan rallies. He originally connected to them through his music, though he never set out to do so. Through the genuine friendships he developed with many of these men and the conversation and connection that ensued, several hundred Klan members gave up their robes and some chapters became closed. It's a fascinating story and I'll post a link to that in the show notes. I absolutely understand the frustration, rancor and fear felt both after the election and now. I feel all of that myself at times, regardless of what side of the political divide you fall on. The way forward is more curiosity, understanding and connection, not more hatred and division. I believe, similar to Daryl Davis and those members of the Ku Klux Klan who are willing to see beyond their differences, together we can move in a direction that supports us all. Marshall Rosenberg, the author of Nonviolent Communication A Language of Life, speaks of this in his book, where he takes two groups in deep and often deadly conflict and puts them in separate rooms. He asks them to write down their needs and desires from the level of universal human needs. He then has them switch rooms and when people on both sides begin to recognize their shared humanity and what the other side had written, it allowed new possibilities for connection and collaboration to emerge.

Gregg Berman: 2:44

It's been a long time since the election, so why post now? Well, there are a few reasons for that. One is because there was so much intensity in the division happening immediately after the election. Rightly or wrongly, I thought the message might not be received and wanted to give a little time before releasing it. While most of the media is focused on widening the division, I'm seeing more talk about understanding each other as a means to working towards common goals and, as Marshall Rosenberg said, all conflict is a tragic expression of unmet needs. I hope we can start to explore each other's needs.

Gregg Berman: 3:24

This podcast is an attempt at that exploration. The other reason is simply my own humanness, as I briefly mentioned at the start of this episode. The night before Chi and I sat down, I learned my mother might be going into hospice. Though the start of our conversation is a bit awkward, I've left that in so you are aware of my mental state as we made this episode. If you're a reader of my blog, you know she did end up in and out of hospice and ultimately died in early December. At the same time I was moving from one side of the San Francisco Bay to the other, so it's taken me time to have the bandwidth to put this out. I hope you enjoy this episode and I'd love to hear your thoughts. Ready to unlock your full potential, join me.

Gregg Berman: 4:23

Greg Berman. Your guide to self-discovery, self-acceptance and joy. This podcast blends life coaching, mindfulness and the power of nature to help you manage anxiety, cultivate self-compassion and embrace your true self. Along the way, we'll embrace the imperfection, fallibility and messiness of what it means to be a human, with love, care and acceptance for all of who you are. This is your sanctuary for a more mindful, authentic and fulfilling life. Let's embark on this journey together, as we give you permission to be your full self.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 5:08

In the last episode, I shared with you Hello, it looks like it booted me out the first time, but I'm back the first time, but I'm back.

Gregg Berman: 5:32

I I was actually in something with with somebody else and and then we went an hour and 15 minutes over.

Gregg Berman: 5:36

Oh, wow, awesome. Yeah, I mean good, good and not good. It it's. You know, and I'll just share this with with you as well. As well, I want to connect with you and have our conversation and you know, there's both the struggle around the election results and there's the struggle of yesterday. I got word that it sounds like my mom is probably going to end up going into hospice, and so it's brought up lots of shit and she's on the other side of the country from me although I already had plans to go there and lots of shit between my brothers and I. I mean good conversations but hard conversations, or, you know, feelings that come up around both her potential death and the ways that we were not served by either of our parents growing up. Yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, I've been in a not good state today.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 6:49

Understandably so, and I have so much compassion and sharing love with you. I've been navigating this perspective, the spiritual perspective that the universe has our backs, and to shift the mindset that we habitually fall into of why is this happening to me, to how is this happening for me. So I've been thinking about that with these election results, so as the election was coming closer, I was very much trying to operate in the same state that I've been practicing a state of surrender and unattachment. So it's not easy when you really fear something or you really desire something, it's very easy to get attached to a certain outcome, and I found that I've been experiencing lots of magic and lots of synchronicity, except when I get too attached to something.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 7:49

When I really want something to go a certain way. It seems that I push that away. So as the election approached, I tried to think about it less and less and not be attached to it and just be like, okay, the universe is going to take care of it exactly how it's supposed to take care of it, exactly how it's supposed to take care of it. Now, I was hoping that that would lead to a Harris win, but, and I thought that by trying and caring too much and wanting it too much, then that's when I would push us into this reality. But I was really in a state of, I think, surrender and peace and not being attached to it. And yet I still attracted what I perceived to be the negative outcome. In fact, I attracted a worse outcome than I ever imagined, because I thought that if Trump won, he wouldn't also win the Senate and the House of Representatives. To have every branch of government, including the Supreme Court, is very, very, very scary, very scary. Basically, you could do whatever he wants and everybody will just push it through. No one's going to resist, there will be no resistance whatsoever, and that's terrifying. That's more terrifying than him winning the presidency. It's more terrifying than his last presidency, because he didn't have control of all these areas. So it's really scary.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 9:02

So how is this happening for me? Or, if the universe is really working in our favor, why is this occurring? And I have some answers that I feel pretty good about, if you care to hear that. So what I've realized in my time reflecting is that the universe is a reflection of our internal self, our internal state, right, because we are the universe. So what is going on externally is mirroring something that's going on internally and also with the collective consciousness of humanity, right? So what is key to bring about the next tier of human consciousness, according to a model that I feel is very accurate? Spiral dynamics. Are you familiar? I've heard the term, but I don't know what it is.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 10:00

It has stages labeled by color. Ken Wilber also has a model that the spiral dynamics was built off of which is very similar but his colors are a little bit different. But it's largely the same system and it's a grand model of psychological evolution that shows the stages of consciousness that every single human must pass through, and in the same order.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 10:22

And it's proven to be true about individuals as well as entire societies. You can watch countries as they go through stages in history where it's clear that they're at each stage and they move up through these stages. They oscillate back and forth between more individual focus and more collective focus and they each have a transformational dilemma such that whatever is above that stage of consciousness is kind of like a dog whistle right, like you cannot. Hey, greg, check out that unicorn right next to me, isn't it horn so iridescent and beautiful and its mane is so lush. And you won't be able to see it because you're not at that frequency of consciousness and you will think I'm insane. And that's why none of the logical explanations to Trump supporters will get them to understand why we need to take care of the planet or why we need to create systems to protect the disenfranchised and marginalized, and all that. It's at a frequency that they don't understand. So learning about this actually helped me have a lot more compassion for human beings, no matter how they show up, even if they're as far down as a stage red, which Trump clearly has a lot of stage red tendencies. Also, nobody's all at one stage. Every facet of our personality is at a different stage of development. So there are going to be ways that I'm way down at stage blue, and I'm aware of them Now that I know the model. There's a lot of ways that well, not very many. There's a few ways I'm still at stage orange, and then there's a lot of ways I'm at green and yellow, which is primarily what I identify with.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 12:13

So most liberals are at stage green, which is the highest stage of tier one consciousness. It's the stage that's also the highest of any country in the world. One consciousness. It's the stage that's also the highest of any country in the world. Scandinavian countries, which also test the highest in happiness, are at stage green and they are, you know, the most advanced countries in the world based on this model.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 12:36

However, none of the models in stage one are actually superior to the other. They all have pros, but an equal and opposite con. So, even though we pass through them in a certain order and you think it's a hierarchy of getting smarter and getting more conscious, it actually isn't, because every single stage within tier one is doomed to bring about the same cycles of suffering that have plagued humanity for all of existence, about the same cycles of suffering that have plagued humanity for all of existence war, economic inequality, jealousy, you know, you know all these things, the crimes that we do right, it's all going to happen again and again, again, until we reach tier two consciousness, which very, very, very, very few people have reached.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 13:21

There's some people that say 1% of people can see it. We are in one of the most progressive, one of the most conscious places and I've been surrounding myself with the most conscious people. I am 100% sure that it is less than 1% of people who can see it. And then to actually embody it, you need to move from logical understanding to emotional understanding of it, and that's what I'm in the process of doing. I'm not even there yet. I'm not actually embodied as a stage yellow is the first tier of tier two consciousness thinker yet, but at least I can see it. I've had the transformational dilemma unlocked, and the transformational dilemma that unlocks this tier of consciousness that's actually supposed to break us free from all of the systems that have it basically helps us create a new world where we break free from repeating the same patterns.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 14:06

The transformational dilemma is paradox, which is, in my opinion this is not something I've heard elsewhere, but I believe is unlocked by the incorporation of the shadow.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 14:18

So when you can fully love the shadow just as much as what we see as our light, that's when you can actually integrate opposites that exist in the world around us and hold them to be simultaneously true. One that's a good example is abortion when we can simultaneously hold that we are killing a life, we're essentially killing a human, but that also women have the right to be sovereign about their bodies and have that decision, and that there are times when killing is actually kind and better for humanity. When you can hold that simultaneously that it is wrong, it is killing, but it's necessary and it's good and it's a woman's choice, and all that exists equally and simultaneously together. That's the beginning of understanding this. What is happening now and the problem with stage green, okay, which is the people who are woke and they have a lot of benefits. They have gone through more of these stages. They are on the precipice of getting into stage yellow, but the night is darkest before the dawn. So stage green is not only the most enlightened stage, but it's the most judgmental stage.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 15:29

And all the vitriol that has been put down towards all the other states of consciousness below, and also the fact that it's we almost dehumanize Trump supporters right? We, we really reject them, we really think we're superior to them, that they are underdeveloped, that there's something wrong with them.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 15:48

that is the downside that makes stage green, even though it's higher up on the stages, actually equally bad and equally contributing to repeating the cycles of suffering on the planet yeah I think that what we didn't do is we didn't learn compassion for these people, we didn't learn how to actually integrate them into creating a better society and when we are faced with enough darkness that eventually we have some sort of epiphany that they're not wrong. But it's their context. You know the context of fear, like if you put yourself in the perspective of the somebody who's been a coal miner and your grand fathers were coal miners and all your family's coal miners and your town, your loved ones, your best friends are coal miners and you've seen people give their lives. You know people you loved have died in the mines because this is something that's important, it's the livelihood of everyone. And then you have somebody that wants to take this away and you know they're not going to build some fancy electric car thing in your town or whatever.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 16:54

You can understand their fear and you can understand how that would also, once they put themselves in echo chambers on social media with people who are on that side, chambers on social media with people who are, you know, on that side, they start to hear and get brainwashed with a lot of other things and they don't have access to college education and things like that to help people to elevate their consciousness. It's not that that person's a villain, it's not that they're stupid, it's this, that that's their context, and spiral dynamics really helped me to understand that. So I think that we had to face this. We have to face this so we do not villainize the other, and as we are able to start to have compassion and even forgive or build connections with people that we hate what they believe and what they stand for, then it'll be easier to give ourselves grace for all the things that we hate about ourselves. It'll be easier to give ourselves grace for all the things that we hate about ourselves, right? So, yeah, there's a lot of things within your shadow, right?

Christopher Tang (Chi): 17:52

I heard a little bit about your struggle that it's still hard to feel like you're good enough or worthy because of and that same part of you that attacks that part of your being as a larger body externally being connected to the universe is the same response that we have for a Trump supporter, for example, and when we heal one, we magically have the mirror principle come into effect and it heals the other. I think that if Kamala won, then perhaps and I think this is part of why Obama's presidency wasn't as revolutionary as we wanted it to be, and I think this is part of why Obama's presidency wasn't as revolutionary as we wanted it to be I think maybe it gave us a false sense of oh, we're doing good, we don't need to revolutionize, we're on the right path. Well, this shows us, oh my God, more internal focus on elevating our own consciousness being the change that we want to see in the world, because we saw that we couldn't change other people. We tried to change other people's minds so that they would vote a certain way and shut down this.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 18:59

But I think the more that we villainize them, the more it actually built strength in them, because when somebody is being attacked, when you've got an animal cornered, the animal goes crazy, and I think that's what we did. We should have been loving, not have been attacking. We shouldn't have been insulting, we shouldn't have been trying to cancel so much. We need to be able to embrace the shadow, and I think that's why the universe has put us in this reality, because most people have not learned to integrate their shadow, and that's proof in the way that we judge others too. So it's the same the more we judge others, the more we judge ourselves. The more we judge ourselves, the more we judge others, and I think that's why we're in this reality, because we need to face that and learn something that we haven't learned otherwise.

Gregg Berman: 19:43

Yeah, I definitely appreciate and resonate with, well, appreciate you sharing that and resonate, you know, and it was my thought during the first time that he got elected of like, okay, I hope this is a wake-up call and you know, apparently we need to be hitting head with it again. But I also, you know, I was having a over the last few days having a conversation with somebody who, who I knew, was going to vote for Trump and was was, you know she when she first approached me and told me she wanted to share some things with me and she's like I'm worried you're going to hate me, greg, and I'm like I'm not going to hate you. I might not agree with you, but I'm not going to hate you. And you know, one of the things I was saying is I'm genuinely curious. What is in the mind of somebody like this person's, a female Asian physician, you know, intelligent, has plenty of motivation and not want Trump, and so, like, like I'm genuinely curious, what, what, what are the things you're seeing?

Gregg Berman: 20:52

And I, and similar to what you're saying, you know it, like I I've said for a long time, I don't, like some people want to paint Trump as Satan and I don't think that that serves any of us. It's just another way of creating division and saying all Trump is is about division. Well, you're still being about division by saying that he's only about division and by saying everything with him is wrong and it doesn't mean you have to agree with him, but it's. You know, how do we have conversations with each other? How do we explore each other? How do we find ways to come together even when we disagree, rather than be in this place of oh, you're totally wrong and you're totally evil, and you know, know, as you say, like people who are, who have a vested interest, for whatever reason, whether it's the coal mine thing or you know whatever else, you know you're just yeah, I mean the, my, the.

Gregg Berman: 22:01

The analogy that I use, which is similar to what you said, is like if you are, if you're backing a person or an animal up to a cliff edge, even if you are coming towards it with the thought of I want to help pull you away, what sees is you're coming towards it and it's, it's going to, you know, attack yeah, or it's going to back itself off of the cliff in fear of you and not even being aware that it's going to kill itself exactly yeah, yeah, and I think I'm actually very curious what that friend said about why why they were supporting trump I mean they're?

Gregg Berman: 22:39

they sent me a bunch of videos and so I haven't.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 22:43

They didn't give you an actual answer, though I would have liked the personal answer yeah, me, me too, you know and you know.

Gregg Berman: 22:52

But part of the reason that that she's not doing the personal answer is because she's terrified I'm going to hate her and even though I've said I'm not going to, yeah, but you know, you see so much hate out there, so I understand her thinking that. But I know that part of it she has shared and it's that it's that when and RFK Jr came out for Trump and it was in part around medical stuff and the you know the way the medical system bucks with us. Basically, you know she wants something different and she wants drug companies to not have so much power and and and she sees that. And then there was something around kids and and what we like missing, missing children from mexico, although it's not missing children, it's just children who didn't show up to a court case, but but so, yeah, I would, I would be curious to. I'm even now, I still, I still intend on talking to her more about it yeah you know, because it is.

Gregg Berman: 24:20

It is fascinating. And you know, to what you said about like percentage of people like I, I know that we, well, we're in a bubble in california, then we're in another bubble in the bay Area and then you and I, in the people that we connect with even within the Bay Area, are in yet another bubble. And so it's like you know I was saying this last night to Ariel and Alex of you know, it's not that I didn't know that Trump had lots of support, but when you're surrounded by a bunch of people who you know don't want them, and that's like you know, 90, 95 percent of the people that I see, and then you look on the map and see what it, what it was like, you know, to your point, it's like, oh, we, there's a lot, of, a lot of spiritual work that needs to be done here a lot of yeah.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 25:17

Yeah, and that's what I see within the United States is that we have almost equal percentages of people who are, I think, largely, maybe a little. I think there's less in blue and more in green, but there's a lot that are in the blue stage, which is the very rigid. You need to follow all the rules and there's no flexibility mindset. You need to follow all the rules and there's no flexibility mindset, and that's usually a highly religious stage as well. So you know, anybody that's really. Oh, did I lose you? You did Nope, can you hear me?

Gregg Berman: 25:49

Oh no, internet's problems. Yeah, I, I can hear you. Can you hear me?

Christopher Tang (Chi): 26:19

Okay, okay, so as long, yeah, whenever my dad's using the microwave which he may do he usually microwaves a couple things for a minute each, then it goes out. So that might. I don't know why that is, but it happens I heard.

Gregg Berman: 26:32

I heard everything you were saying. Your face was frozen, but your voice was continuing.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 26:38

Oh, okay, cool, that actually threw me off about what I was saying. Oh yes, so I actually have believed, ever since I learned about spiral dynamics, that the next world war will not be a war between countries, but between a war of stages of consciousness and that most of it will occur technologically and online, particularly now that people can deep fake things and you know you won't even know what's true or what's not.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 27:03

You can use my exact voice. You can use my body and make it look like I'm doing or saying terrible things. You can get people canceled. You can hack their, their accounts. You can do all these different things in this technological age. So that's what I imagine the next war is.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 27:19

And the way that we prevent this war. Because we have, like I said, a lot of people in stage blue who are very rigid religious, mostly on the Trump side. And then we have a lot of people who are stage orange, which is very individual. It's the capitalist mentality work and get the prestige and the fame and the money and the material goods and all that. That's also where a lot of America is. I'd say the majority of America is still in that phase. And then we move from orange into the green phase, which is about community and the planet and equality and all these other things. And, yeah, that's the phase that we're moving into. But you know, we still have a lot of people who are very much in the more individualistic, selfish orange stage, which Trump is really great at as a businessman, right.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 28:10

So we've got these three primary stages battling each other and dividing each other in our country right now and the only way to resolve everything is to get people to the next stage, stage yellow, where they can integrate paradox and they can see all the stages below, the pros and the cons of each, realize that somebody that's woke and green is not necessarily better than somebody who is super rigidly religious.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 28:38

In fact, somebody who is functioning in a, you know, positive version of themselves but way down at stage blue consciousness, will actually be experiencing a happier life in this sort of ignorance is bliss kind of state than some people in green who are, you know, really struggling to navigate all the heartbreak and pain and suffering in the world. So you know they're not navigate all the heartbreak and pain and suffering in the world. So you know they're not better at all. It's just. It's just a higher level of consciousness, but it doesn't mean that they will be happier. It doesn't mean they'll be better until we get to stage yellow and then we can actually see how to dissolve the current systems and create something that actually works better for everyone. And I I don't I don't know very many people, if any people, who are actually embodying stage yellow in the conscious community.

Gregg Berman: 29:27

Most of the people are highly in green, which unfortunately, is also highly judgmental yeah, yeah, I, based on on the things that you said and you know the knowledge that we're in, you know there's different parts of us in different places. I mean I would say that there has been a part of me, for whatever reason, that for a long time has been in yellow and able to see nuance. But there's also another part of me that's, you know, in green and probably in multiple other stages as well, and you know feeling all that, but something, something like it makes me think about did you ever read non-violent communication?

Christopher Tang (Chi): 30:14

no, but I've been hearing about it because my friend Janice has been going to a bunch of the workshops.

Gregg Berman: 30:20

I used to do some of the workshops. I would like to again. I haven't been connected to the community, but I read the book probably three times, and there are a number of things, beautiful things, in it. But one of the stories he talks about is I think this was with, I don't know, there was Middle East relations, but it was something like that where there were these two factions who were, were, you know, just at odds with each other, couldn't hear each other vilifying each other, and what he did was he took them each in separate rooms, put poster board on the walls and and said what are your dreams, what are your desires? Why do you want this outcome? What will it get you?

Gregg Berman: 31:07

And and so when, when people were were sharing from, from their heart and from their deepest yearnings, what they wanted, you know, which was safety for their kids, you know, health, a home, whatever you know. And and then he, he had them all switch rooms and read what the other people wrote, and, and you know, that was like the first time where they weren't, just, like you, immediately triggered just by seeing the other person, but could say, oh, wow, the things that we want are actually really similar. It allowed them to come together, and that's you know that. That's exactly why I think saying things like like Trump is Satan don't serve us, because if you're, because if you're just putting that block there, then there's never any possibility of coming together. Exactly.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 32:05

And that's what I've seen a lot of today on social media from my friends is a lot of them saying you know, if you voted for Trump, you're dead to me. See yourself out, you don't belong in my life, all these other things. I got some experience with this because the friend that I fell deeply in love with love more than I've ever loved any human ever was a Trump supporting Mexican girl. He was a Mexican girl who believed in building the wall, and her reason is that her family took the time and effort to do everything right. So from her perspective, she's like my father did everything right and he has. You know, he's successful. He did all these other things. Anybody else should be able to work hard and do the same thing. Now, if they are able to just come in here and have the same privileges that my father had, to give and sacrifice and do all this stuff, for that's not fair to us, you know.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 32:58

So there's, amongst other things, and we completely disagreed in certain areas, but on a soul level, I felt very much connected with this person as well, and that was a tricky thing for me to navigate, because I certainly didn't expect to fall in love with somebody like that, but I feel like I learned a lot about that and it actually elevated my own consciousness to have this different sort of perspective reflected back to me Now, when one of my other really close friends who I'd done a lot for, I'd book them on my show and work their merch table for free and did all these other things to support them in their music career and you know, we were really good friends for years when they found out that I was in love with a Trump supporter, they not only stopped being my friend and told me that I was an accessory to bigotry and you know, all these other things and that's any space that I'm in is unsafe because I bring unsafe people around and all this other stuff.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 33:55

And you know, I've been around this person a lot and she's the most giving generous person, especially to strangers, that I've ever been around Like she doesn't even have that much money and she's always buying things for homeless people, giving them like $10 here or there, helping all these strangers do all these things, which is also really confusing with some of her political beliefs. I don't understand, but in my personal experience being around them, they have the greatest heart that I'd ever seen anybody ever have. And it was a bit of a paradox in her as well. But I knew that you know you're safe around this person. She might buy you some food or, you know, be really nice and kind to you. But yeah, my friend thought that you know that I was dangerous because I have, you know, this person in my life that I associate with conservatives. And then not only did they, you know, not want to be my friend anymore, they started going around to other people in the hip hop community, other mutual friends of ours, and having private conversations about me and how dangerous I was and how I shouldn't be a part of the community anymore and all this other stuff, because I associate with bigotry. And, yeah, one other person also turned against me because of that, which was another close friend of mine, but some of the other ones did not. So you know, I've already I've already experienced how extreme this can be and I already understand from spiral dynamics that that's the downside. The funny thing is, most of my consciousness is at stage green, and yet the stage that I think is the most dangerous is stage green, because cancel culture is a very slippery slope, censorship is a very slippery slope, and this is.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 35:37

I was listening to Joe Rogan's interview with Elon Musk that came out right after his Trump interview, and that was the part that I think really would change most people's minds was two things when Elon Musk said that if Kamala wins this election, we're never going to have a truly open, free election again, and I agreed with his reasoning. Actually, I believe that that is actually part of the natural shift. It would indicate that more of us have moved into stage green and you're never going to have so many people regress back to the stages that even would vote conservative. I do believe we would have fair elections, but now they'd be an elevated. It basically, just like the Whig Party is obsolete, republicans would become obsolete. But he doesn't see that. The new party that's more liberal, basically the people like AOC and Bernie Sanders, like the Democratic Socialists, they probably become one party and then the more conservative Democratic Party becomes the other party and those are two new parties. Like that's probably what would have happened. So he's not wrong about that and if you were in stage blue or orange, you'd be terrified of that because you're never going to win another election, basically, and I agreed.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 36:47

But then also, the other thing that he said was very dangerous was why he got X was because, yeah, there's a lot of censorship of ideas, and I've actually been very upset because Instagram, on their music, has started censoring a lot of rap songs. I like putting rap songs onto my stories and I believe that hip hop I partially love because I think it's one of the last bastions of true freedom of speech. So the fact that these social medias are censoring certain types of information, certain ideas and, yes, a lot of them are really harmful. But it's also a slippery slope, because who's determining what kind of information can be shared and what can't? And there's a lot of times when somebody shared something that they don't see how it violates any of the user agreements and yet they get banned for a while, like that's happened to some very progressive friends of mine, and I'm like, oh, that's really weird. So I think that their points about censorship and about cancel culture are very, very dangerous, because right now, a lot of the people who are on the liberal side will take somebody saying the N-word 20 years ago one time in an interview and say we need to take away their livelihood, we need to make sure they never work again, that all this other stuff happens.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 38:03

The greatest story in humanity is the redemption story. You know, that's why Star Wars is so great. Yeah, there's a redemption story for Vader, right? You have all these people who are able to change from being a villain to being a hero, and that's one of the greatest things about humanity. It's character development.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 38:22

If we continue to do cancel culture the way that woke perspectives are doing, cancel culture, we deprive people of that, and that means that once somebody has done something wrong and we've all done something wrong again, it's the rejection of the shadow. Cancel culture is the rejection of the shadow, the hate right now towards the Trump side is the rejection of the shadow. All of this is really really pushing the shadow away instead of facing it and integrating it, and I think that's where we're at. We're at this phase where we really really need to integrate the shadow, and getting mad at people for their mistakes and making it so they're unforgivable only makes the things that we hold in our heads more unforgivable. We need to forgive them, we need to realize they can change and in doing so, we'll forgive ourselves and realize we can change and that's what I think we are yeah, I, I agree, and I think it's.

Gregg Berman: 39:15

It's not simply we. We need to forgive them and understand that they can change, but we need to understand them. What brought them to this place? What were their motivations? Is there any validity in that and what do we need to do?

Gregg Berman: 39:31

And it's like you know what you said about the, the people who are canceling you for, you know, for caring about somebody who supports trump. It's, it's, you know, and how dangerous that is. It's like, well, if you go to the other side and there are people who would look at you know, the cultures that you are and I are involved in that that have psychedelics and sex positivity and and would think those, those people are, are evil and it's just bad and wrong. And you know, and and yet not realizing, you know, the people that are in the communities that we're in even though, yes, many of them are in the green, will vilify others, but they're also some of the most loving, caring, nurturing, desiring for progress people, and it's, yes, some of that is because of the sex positivity and the you know, I mean even even, you know, cuddling is vilified because people don't understand what that that is, and and so you know, knowing where, when we don't, when, when all that we are doing is looking at something and that either goes in the good box or the bad box, rather than what's the nuance here, and what you know it's something that I, I share all the time is it's the nuance here, and what you know it's something that I, I share all the time is it's is, it's never the action, it's what's behind it.

Gregg Berman: 41:06

You know, and this, this is a kind of a dumb example, but like take eating ice cream, if you're. If you're eating ice cream because I enjoy the flavor and it feels good and I I feel nourished, and yes, I know that it might not be the most healthy thing for me, but I'm really getting pleasure out of this right now versus I'm eating ice cream because there's a hole that I want to fill or because I'm angry at somebody or I hate my body anyway, so I'm just going to do this. Neither is right or wrong, but one is more empowering than the other, and so it's. You know, I think again, this is separate, but it reminds me of years ago. You know, I was in a Cites, the Convention on Trade and International Species Conference, and you know, people are Like there are people that are Totally against hunting and think hunters are bad because, know, this goes to.

Gregg Berman: 42:19

You know a different version what you were saying about abortion, taking life, but it's like, well, if they're also protecting the land. And you know not, not, you know doing something where, okay, this animal had a good life versus an animal that's brought up in a cage and doing things in sustainable ways and wanting the good of nature and the world, like, like, that's a that's. Is that worse than okay, I'm? I'm gonna go buy my, my meat wrapped in cellophane in a grocery store and it had a miserable life. And you know promoting factory farming, like you know exploring what is the, what is the nuance, and not just painting things in a, in a evil versus good dynamic.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 43:10

Yeah, that's exactly it because, objectively, when we think about the universe there, there is no evil or good. It's all the lens that we look at it through. And the thing is that we don't know the lens of any other person Like we don't know your friend's lens for why they voted for Trump and what most people will do because they haven't practiced you know different perspectives enough or they haven't had enough conversations with people who are different from them to be able to really perceive all the possibilities. It's very easy to project a reason upon them and a lot of the times our brains are naturally I've heard maybe 70% of thoughts each day are negative, and that was a survival mechanism back in the days when we lived in a very dangerous world. Things would kill you all the time, so you needed to be more worried than then. You would survive. You wouldn't eat something that you don't know what it is or whatever it is, but we still have the wiring to be more fearful and more worried and have majority negative thoughts. So anytime we project that unconsciously to anyone, we're going to skew towards negative thoughts, even to ourselves. We will skew towards negative thoughts until we rewire our brains to have a more balanced ratio and then it becomes also that 85 or so percent of our thoughts each day are the same thoughts we had the previous day. So now you've got these largely negative thoughts about other people, about the world, about whatever. It's mostly fear-based lens and you're repeating them on a day-to-day basis. You're really creating very thick, dendrite axon connections so that it becomes instinctual instant thinking and it becomes so ingrained that it's hard to see anything else.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 45:04

Which is why I think that you know, with spiral dynamics, it's very, very easy for people to elevate to the stage that they are raised in. So if you're born in a certain country let's say you're in Gaza right now okay, you're experiencing a lot of stage red thinking, so you're going to be able to get up through beige to purple, to red and then from there, each, each transformational dilemma requires going through the fire and really facing something that's very difficult and having new perspectives and then having to move from logical understanding of it to emotional understanding, then emotional embodiment. Then you're at that next stage and then you, you know, have to do the same thing again. You have to be able to actually get to a point where you face enough adversity and struggle and suffering that the transformational dilemma becomes apparent to you and then you need to logically understand it and that, like most people maybe go through one one stage in consciousness in their life above what they're raised into. And then, but if somebody were raised in you know copenhagen right now, they would be able to get right through red, probably by the time they are in elementary school and they'll be like oh, now we have to follow the rules, like that's when I got to stage blue was in elementary school. Follow the rules. All the situations you must follow the rules. That's how things are, that's how we get along.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 46:34

And then eventually in high school you become a teenager and you start independently thinking and wanting things for yourself. And you want to get a car, you want to work, you want these championships and awards and things like that. So you get into orange really easily. And then you go to a good university that teaches you more about a global perspective and humanity and you start joining clubs that are protesting causes. All of a sudden, you're at stage green. By the time you're 20, you're already at stage green. A sudden, you're at stage green. By the time you're 20, you're already at stage green. Well, somebody like yeah, in the middle east. You know, really, raised in a strict islamic situation, they're going to go up to blue. Really well, but how the heck are they going to get from blue to orange?

Christopher Tang (Chi): 47:08

right and then from orange to green right. It's very, very difficult.

Gregg Berman: 47:12

So yeah, yeah, which which goes it goes to what's happening right now around Trump. And you know, even like the people, that that canceled you. It's that. You know that thing. You know the, the, the negativity bias that comes from fear and, yeah, evolutionarily that served us, but but it, you know it's, it's not serving us now. It's not serving us now. It's not. It's not that there's some, not some, value in it, but it but then it becomes all right.

Gregg Berman: 47:43

I'm, I'm noticing, I'm having this thought. I'm noticing I feel a lot of rage toward this person, you know, and being able to be curious about that, like why, why is that? What's going on for me? Well, what's creating that? And it's always because we want to protect something, we want to save something, we want whether it's whether it's ourself and our values, or or our kids, or our job, or whatever it is there's some, something feels in danger for you, and so, rather than focusing on that and what we do about it, we focus on no bad wrong got to get rid of. And you know, we haven't, we haven't been taught how to get outside the boxes of our thinking.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 48:30

Yes, that's what my education program is going to be designed to do, and I need to launch it because we direly need it, and that's a big component of it is to learn the context and perspective, how to zoom into the micro, zoom out to the macro, go back and forth like spinning in all the different perspectives possible as we do so.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 48:52

I think that that is key to being able to find happiness, or even to create happiness for yourself, because once you can see all the different perspectives, neither of them, or none of them, is more real than the others. So you just attach yourself to the one that serves you the most and it's just as valid and just as real as any other perspective. So, the more that you get really good at seeing every perspective and then you attach yourself to the ones that create the best version of you, know you your your best self-image, your best way of perceiving the world. I think that's how you create your own reality. Maybe you don't actually change what's physically in existence, but if you can change your lens of it, then your experience of it will be entirely different yeah I think that's why, at a t compression the other day, grace said that I look like I was four inches taller than she remembered me being.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 49:44

I don't think I actually grew, but I do feel like I was carrying myself differently and that different energy created a lens of perception that I was, you know, standing taller and larger than life or whatever it is, and then I would be perceived as being taller physically by her as well, I think.

Gregg Berman: 50:02

Yeah, yeah, when you're, when you're energetics are more radiant. And yeah, it gives. It gives it changes your physical perception, even if not the physical reality.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 50:14

Yeah, and somebody else. I forgot who it was, because at that point I was no longer sober, but there was somebody else that said the same thing to me about two hours later, about two hours after Grace talked to me. She was like you got taller and I'm like you're the second person that said that and I'm pretty sure 41 year olds don't grow yeah yeah, yeah, and and and at the same point, they do.

Gregg Berman: 50:42

Just, you know, you, you, you shifted your energetics. We won't have a long time today, but so that goes into. You know, like, like, talking about your program and what you want to do, like I had this, since I, I talked with you, I was I don't know if you saw schwell's post of what's happening in her journey in china, but I, I, it was just the other day, she posted it and after reading it, I had this idea of, and you can tell me your thoughts on this, but it was, you know, my both. My podcast is called Permission to Be your Full Self and the coaching program that I have is also called that, and and so when I, when I first said to you about being on the podcast, I didn't have a specific idea, but the idea that has formed is wanting to do a series of interviews with different people where we explore and it can be a back and forth, but explore what what are the things that support you and being your full self?

Gregg Berman: 51:57

What are the things that get in the way of you being your full self? What is the things that support you in being your full self? What are the things that get in the way of you being your full self. What is the vision that you want to create for yourself, such as your program, and you know how do you want to get that out there and what, what has stopped you and like like really being being open and vulnerable with like, where do we want to go and what gets in our way and how. You know, how do we I mean partly how do we change that? It's not it's not specifically to come up with answers, but to explore the question. I like that.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 52:26

I'd love to do that. Also, I noticed that there's something that's recording this. I feel like this was really good, like I feel like I don't know that I could explain everything that I explained with Spiral Dynamics the Trump situation any better than I have. So I would love, whatever recording you have, if you could share that with me, I might be able to chop it up and put it on social media in some form.

Gregg Berman: 52:48

Yeah, absolutely, you might automatically get it and if not, I will send it to you, okay, but yeah, it's funny, I was I was thinking that earlier like, oh, I still want to do a podcast with you, but this, this conversation has been really good and, and you know, we could even use bits and pieces the whole thing, whatever. Like there's a lot, of, a lot of good information in what we've been discussing and nuance, and you know that very high level conversation.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 53:22

I'm wearing like a very low level shirt, but the conversation but, you have a high level background. Yeah, I do that's. That's what I'd like to see a balance of nature and technology, and yeah, yeah, definitely a curiosity.

Gregg Berman: 53:37

Oh well, also in in that, what? Whether, whether you automatically get it or whether I send it to you, which will be literally seconds after we get off. There's the video recording. There is also a written transcript and there is also bullet point notes Amazing.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 53:57

I might need to get Fathom.

Gregg Berman: 54:03

It's been great. I use it for all my client sessions now I use it when I am being coached.

Gregg Berman: 54:08

I use it sometimes just in conversations or when any anybody's ever teaching me something like hey, yeah, you know, and I apologize for not asking you, but I assumed you you knew their normal at the beginning and I've just found it's been so valuable in retaining these and again not oh, and the way that the transcript works is you can go through the transcript, click on a part of the transcript and it'll go to that part of the video. Nice, oh, that's hella useful.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 54:43

Yeah.

Gregg Berman: 54:44

Yeah, it's really great. So one question I do want to ask you before we go is is there a place you would recommend that I could get more information on Spiral Dynamics?

Christopher Tang (Chi): 54:57

Yes, so I learned about it from my friend Sabo, who is amazing. He's changed my life so much, and he sent me this video from actualizeorg. I can send it to you as well. I have seen some people attacking the person that made videos for actualizeorg, and I don't know what to believe here or there. So I'm not saying that I completely agree with this person, but I love the way that he explains it, and every other place where I've seen it explained is missing key details.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 55:31

There is one thing that I think he gets wrong. That he says in the video, though, is that people can only move upwards, and I think that largely the trend is, but with certain types of trauma or the change in a certain situation, I believe that it does go up and down. So he said that once you unlock a certain tier of consciousness, you don't regress. As somebody that believes in neuroplasticity and growth mindset, growth mindset works both ways Use it or lose it. You can go down, so you could have a very enlightened person, but that if we, let's say, we have a nuclear apocalypse and then we're regressed to a time where it's like the Wild West out there and you need to kill to survive, and some, you know, somebody could go right from being very enlightened back down to stage red and not caring about other people and you, you know, just having to do what they do to survive.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 56:20

So I think that's the one mistake that he makes in the video is by saying that yeah, it doesn't go backwards. Aside from that, his explanation is really, really, really great. It's an hour and a half video and then, if you're interested in any particular stages, he has like another hour and a half video on each stage, which is really incredible. So I I was very, very moved by his stage yellow video in particular, because that's where, you know, that's what I think it's all about and that's what my education program would be essentially about is getting people to stage yellow consciousness before technology makes the world so small that we we tear each other apart yeah, we're not able to transcend the differences yeah, I, I appreciate that and and, yeah, I, I, I, I would agree with your assessment that it's possible to go both ways.

Gregg Berman: 57:15

And and then on on something that you said earlier about people attacking him. Again, that goes to the whole conversation that we've been having on nuance and putting things in one box or another. It reminds me of where I met Infinity was at Interchange Counseling a decade ago, and when that I don't know if you know anything about it, but when that imploded because of a big sex scandal, you know, which was horrible. But then there were a lot of people who were then painting everything that ever came out of that organization as wrong and bad. And I credit not only what I learned there but also the people that I met. I call that thing my gateway drug into so many groups and so much learning and healing that I've done for myself.

Gregg Berman: 58:07

And it's yes, what happened was was awful, and we all do things that are are. You know, there's none of us who are perfect and some have created more harm than others. But even somebody who's created tons of harm doesn't mean that they're all evil and that's it and that nothing that comes out of them has value. And again to our whole conversation. It's like it doesn't. When we have that viewpoint of the silos, it doesn't serve us yeah.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 58:44

Yeah, I've heard things about Martin Luther King Jr and his problems with his wife, right, and domestic violence and Gandhi being racist as fuck. You know, there's all these things, and if we take all the great ideas and throw them out the window the baby with the bathwater, right then we basically can't use anything. If you know, we, you can't use this invention because this, this person that invented it, had a problem. Well, you're not going to use any invention, right? Same thing with music or movies, right?

Christopher Tang (Chi): 59:14

Kevin Spacey has done some terrible things. Does that mean that every one of his movies should now be banned? It should never be allowed to be on any streaming site or anything like that? Well, what about all the thousand other people that put effort into that movie, that creation, or whatever could be learned from the moral of the story or whatever it is? You need to separate the art from the artist, essentially, and the information or the knowledge from the source, because everybody is flawed, and that's where I am very afraid of and that's the place where I agreed the most with Elon Musk and Joe Rogan during that podcast was about censorship and cancel culture, and I fully agreed with them that that's where the left is going too far and it's actually dangerous.

Gregg Berman: 59:58

Even though I still voted for kamala I, I see I see parts of the other argument that make a lot of sense to me and it's really an integration of both that you actually find you know the best answers I'll just say I, I, you know, I really appreciate that about you, your your to to see that nuance and to to see like, oh yeah, even though I may not fully agree with it. Like, yeah, here here is a a part that I agree with, because it's it's only through our willingness to do that that we can, we can learn, we can grow, we can explore and we can, we can start to have understanding for other perspectives, rather than just wronging and pushing away other perspectives. Correct, yeah.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 1:00:50

And even if I can't understand it for myself, I can understand their, their context and how their context could make that make sense for them and I could. I could feel that it's reprehensible. At the same time it makes sense for them and then I can give them grace because it does make sense in their context. And if I were in the exact same context with the same upbringing, the same kind of like brainwashing from the people around me, would I really be any different? Would I actually know what I know? I don't think I would Right.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 1:01:23

So how could I hate you for that? How could I say that you should be thrown in jail for this thing when it's a product of your environment? It's more of a well, how do we change your environment? And it's interesting because I think that liberals often understand that in certain cases, certain cases where it's clear that system you know there's systemic reasons for that so they can have more compassion for somebody who has, let's say, an African-American who's grown up with all these different systems against them and then had to shoplift to be able to feed their family or something like that. I think that a lot of liberal perspectives would give a lot of grace to that person, but then certain other contexts, which also lead to harmful behavior, aren't given the same grace.

Gregg Berman: 1:02:16

so yeah interesting yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely a lot more to say. I have to go do a couple things, but I'll call in 10 minutes as well, great. So I've really enjoyed this conversation good to connect with you, and and then I have to figure out what's happening between my mom and I. I'm also going to explore potentially moving and so when I get you know next week, perhaps I'll reach out again. And I mean, feel free to reach out before then. But in terms of figuring out what our next steps are in terms of the podcast, it'll take about a week to figure this out.

Christopher Tang (Chi): 1:02:57

Sure, yeah, all in divine, divine timing, and if it takes longer, that's cool. Give yourself the grace and I'll be here whenever we're ready for that, yeah that sounds good all right much love you too take care thank you for joining me on my journey.

Gregg Berman: 1:03:19

I'm honored that you have chosen to be here and let me share with you. I hope what I share is nourishing and valuable for you. I hope it offers you some insight into your own patterns, whether they are similar or even if they are wildly different from my own. If anything resonates with you, I'd love to hear what you are taking away or even what questions it brings up for you. Let's give each other permission to be our full selves, both the amazing and the messy that resides in us all, and please share this far and wide. I'd be grateful if you'd put a like and a comment wherever you get your podcasts. You can find out more about me and my work on my website, inconnectionwithnaturecom. If I can be of more direct support, reach out and let's have a conversation. See you in the next episode or join me on my blog.