Competition: Motivation or Disincentive?

Good friends Brian Hecimovich and Stephen Cox join Mike Lunney for a friendly debate on the pros and cons of competition in music education. Both of our friends are passionate, successful music educators. But they view competition differently. Enjoy this debate/discussion and consider the extrinsic vs. intrinsic, the motivation of competition goals, and the fact that we all agree, the students should be the primary concern. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So it's great to see our friends back with us, Mike. I don't know. This is y'all's first adventure back since uh our color scheme has changed from the red and blue to the teal and gold. Um so we uh appreciate Tarpley being part of the Ask Mike. But man, Mike, I'm glad to see our friends back with us. We got Brian Hikamovich, Dan in Fredericksburg, our good friend Stephen Cox hanging out. Are you in San Antonio today? Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Um I'm hanging out in West Texas. Mike's hanging out in the Key City. So what are we doing today, Mike? What why do we have this gathering of friends?

SPEAKER_01 0:38

I tell you what, the first thing is yes, our colors have changed. I'm waiting for the new fight song.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

We'll we'll just have to get on it, composer. All right.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

But um, yeah, I'll get Luke McMillan to get working on that. Um, but no, today's gonna be a fun one. Um, got two of the my good friends that we can talk about how we've known each other in terms of decades instead of just a couple of years. And so that's always awesome. But it's gonna be a fun little spirited debate on uh the pros and cons of competition in music and band. So it's gonna be a lot of fun. So uh this is my good friend Brian Hekomovich down at Fredericksburg. Uh, I met him a long time ago when he applied for a choir job at Wiley. That was a couple decades back.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

It was a while back, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

It was a while back, and then uh and then we've got Mr. Stephen Cox, who I remember being uh a kid just kind of wandering around with a clarinet all the way through uh doing his Howard Payne stuff. So starting with Brian, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing, and then we'll kick it over to Steven.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Oh yeah, I grew up uh up in West Texas in the Panhandle, uh just outside Lubbock in a town called Slayton, Texas, and uh was part of uh the course of the band program there. And uh then I made my way down to Central Texas and the hill country and uh taught at a couple different schools down here and uh finding myself here in Fredericksburg, Texas, uh down in uh the German town uh with Main Street and all the wineries you could want and all the uh establishments you could want and be Airbnbs and and doing the band thing. So it's uh been a great time and peaches, yes. You know, I thought peaches were gonna be bigger here, but wine seems to have been taken over. Stress increases it's uh huh. That's right. Yeah, that's right. But you know, uh I've been here five years and uh I've had a a really good go of it and just loving every minute of it. So excited to be on the podcast today. It's an honor to be here and thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Awesome. And and Stephen, I know you're too humbled even mention this because I don't know the exact year, but he's a educator Grammy Award winner. So we have like a potential egot in our in our midst today. But Stephen, tell us a little bit about yourself, who you're working for, what you're working for, your mission in life, et cetera. Go for it.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Yeah, well, I grew up in early Texas, which if you don't know where that is, it's like right next to Brownwood. And if you don't know where that is, it's like south of Abilene, like an hour and a half. And if you don't know where that is, it's like to the left of Dallas Fort Worth for about two hours, you know. So, right. So uh anyway, grew up in rural Texas, uh, taught for a long time in Eastland, Texas with a great crew. Um, and uh I'm excited to be here because these are all of you know my favorite people in this podcast right now. These are all the friends I have. So I'm very excited about that. Um I uh I also taught here in San Antonio, did some popular music education, started a program at the Foxtick campus here in downtown San Antonio. And now I work for the Willis Wonderland Foundation. We do a program called Musical Wonders, where I traveled across the country doing creative music making with teachers, things like improvisation, composition, arranging, all the creativity stuff, the stuff that you need to make music for the times you're not with 60 of your favorite friends and a professional conductor. And so that's uh that's what my gig is now. And I'm happy to be here today.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Awesome. Cool. And I tell you what, with our situation, we have I've got two really good friends in front of me. We're gonna do this in a real loosely structured debate format. Uh, we're not using timers and Jerry uh Springer. Oh no, he's got it. I knew he's he's self-moderated. Self-moderated. Um, but uh to start this thing off, what we're gonna do for our listeners, we're gonna give each person about oh, about up to five minutes or so in that general area, kind of an opening statement and uh for pro and con with the competition. I will say that both these guys are my heroes because uh their passion for what they do is unsurpassed, and their passion kind of goes at times in the same direction, and at other times kind of opposing directions, you know, as far as uh what they do in their in their livelihood. So this is gonna be a whole lot of fun. So we're gonna start with Steven. How about your hey, Mike?

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yes, sir. Before we do that, just to make sure that we're clear for anybody that just happens to wander in into not knowing what Texas music education is sometimes predicated on, we have a structure of UIL, and in that structure there are competitions. There are contests for marching in the fall, for concert and sight reading in the spring, and just sort of the whole thing. It's you know, even I would say the BOA or the the national uh the the national groups that do it's all about who's gonna be. I didn't shouldn't say that right. The competition is how good can you be, right? That that's kind of what the rating system has become in people's minds. I'm not sure I agree a hundred percent that that's what it was ever intended to be, but that's kind of what it's become.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

I think it was always intended to be that. I agree with you, but it was always intended to be a competition. Start of the company.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah, but they couch it carefully with you know, superior, excellent. These are all sound good, right? But if you don't get the one, you didn't get the one. Yeah, still one. So basically that's for those that might be listening outside of the state of Texas, that's what we're referencing when we're talking about competition, is you take your high school group of of kids to a it's almost like a festival setting, not necessarily a festival, but a a an adjudication. People sit down and evaluate your group and tell you how they feel you did. So that's that's kind of the the benchmark of of where this conversation is coming from.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Okay, very good, very good. All right, Steven.

SPEAKER_04 6:26

All right, as mentioned, I I uh I brought my own timer because I want to make sure that I don't over talk because I do. And I made myself notes. I've got a 13-point list here for this five minutes. So I'm gonna do really good with this opening. I'm prepared. So uh my argument today is that while competition has benefits that we've all kind of accepted, uh, I believe it also has very serious cost. And I also believe that it's possible and maybe even preferable to achieve those benefits through other more um, what would I say, more authentic means than competition. So uh I'm sure that we're gonna have a great talk about what the benefits of competition are. So I'm gonna go ahead and start with what I perceive as being the cost. And as mentioned before, competitions may be direct ranking where we have, you know, 10 students or 10 schools or 10 ensembles, and we rank them from first to 10. But it could also be in the rating system where it becomes a de facto competition where everybody is very clearly sorted, uh, very clearly sorted across the five ratings in general, or I guess really only three ratings now, but that's a different discussion entirely. So the main disbenfits, the I guess you would call them cost that I would say is uh, you know, the first one is that, and this is kind of the core of it, competitions are extrinsic motivators, meaning it's not about making music per se, it's about this other thing, the receiving of the trophy, the receiving of um the respect of your peers or whatever we tend to project onto that. Like making the music is one thing, handing someone a trophy because they made the music based on a rubric is an entirely extrinsic thing. All extrinsic motivation comes with some pretty clear cost. Um, and this is mostly based on a huge body of research called self-determination theory. We did a whole episode on that here at Ask Mike when I was here before. That was a good thing. Um, but basically, the big risk is that um these things like contests tend to be perceived as very controlling. So whoever is running the contest or whoever's directing them towards it, it really puts parameters down on what people are expected to do. And as human beings, we actually just really don't like that very much psychologically. Secondly, you have this very real risk that you will actually replace intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation instead, or prevent the intrinsic motivation from ever occurring. So intrinsic motivation would be I just like playing music. I just like being in the band. I just like going to these football games and doing this stuff. I just like improving and getting better, that competitions can come to replace that or stunt the development of that happening. So that would be someone who maybe plays instruments all the way through high school and they get to college and they're like, oh, there's no competitions. I don't want to do it anymore, because it was never really about the music. It was about the competitions. That would be an example of that outcome. And I've only got 12 more things on this list. So I'm gonna go real fast for my remaining one and a half minutes. Um, additionally, they tend to undermine the positive relatedness of the students. So we see each other as peers or obstacles uh instead of being just peers that we want to help, being obstacles to one another's success. Whenever we're sitting up there watching another band perform, we might be going, ooh, I hope they mess up instead of, oh, cool, I love what's happening now. It's so cool. These people that, you know, are at one community away from mine, they're not our peers. They're a competition instead. And that's probably bad for collaboration across programs. And any competition in programs would have the same effect with the students. If you're in a chair ranking with someone else, it is irrational to help them. It literally works against that goal. And that's that's not your goal, in which case, why are we doing it if it's not the goal, right? So um, let's see, there's a tendency for these things to further inequities. Think about marching band. My God, you can line up the budgets and then break people into the 20% that they're probably going to land in by and large. It's not 100%, but I know whenever I was doing marching band, getting a significant improvement in the budget, it improved my score. And that was real and true. And I don't think many people in the marching band game would disagree, uh, disagree. Um, it contributes to job creep. Jobs are, you know, a lot busier than they were. Now, when there's five, six, seven competitions, winter line, winter guard, whereas Mike, I don't know when you started teaching, but I'm sure when you were in school, uh, the band calendar did not look like it does right now. Uh, it doesn't reflect lifelong musicianship. You leave school, there's no more music competitions, it's over. So, like again, if that's the reason you're doing it, that's gonna end pretty quick. Uh, let's see, it can distract from deeper goals. There's other things we could be doing. So there's an opportunity cost. Uh, we can wind up teaching to the test very easily of these contests instead of teaching what we think matters. Uh, let's see. Uh, what about increasing stress? There is nothing more stressful in my life than what area marching contest was. Like I think I've had family members die and it was less stressful than area marching contest was. So, you know, uh, that's the end of my timer. I'll save the five points for later, but that's why I've got my timer.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Well, thank you so much, Stephen. Very good points. Mr.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Brian, you're a good thing. Yes, thank you so much. And and you everyone should know that Stephen and I are are are just very respectful of each other, of course, but we're also friends. And uh I I just start off by saying there's not very much I disagree with what Stephen is saying and and really the the topic of debate, but I think I frame it just a little bit different. And uh, and I would just start off by approaching my thing uh or my side or my viewpoint as saying, uh, I don't know if we're really talking about competition or we're talking about toxicity uh in the human element. Uh, but that is reality. And um, just like a lot of things, I'm gonna try to base things in reality uh as a as opposed to theory and uh perfect worldness. Um, but that's that's also needs to be played both ways. And out of respect to that conversation and that debate, I want to just acknowledge that. Um, competition in school music programs is has always been debated, uh especially uh with music. And when it's implemented thoughtfully, I really do sincerely believe it is a force for good and is a net positive for uh students, programs, communities. Uh, and of course, it's not without its flaws. At its core, competition provides students with shared goals. They're usually a much more clear, something tangible to strive forward. Um, that gives uh a sense of purpose when it comes to why we're doing what we're doing. That's a little more physical, a little more tangible for the students to be able to see. It's a little more clear as opposed to always just doing it because we should do things. Um, I think that speaks to students just a little more and speaks to people a little bit more. Um, we rehearse with more intention. Uh, we listen more critically, we take greater ownership of the individual role. Uh, I've seen firsthand how competition helps with student buy-in. Um, they're not just participating, they're invested. They care about the outcome because they care about each other. And um, I know uh Steven talked about um not wanting to help the person next to him because that's their competition. Um I think that's a culture thing. And I and I would tell you, thankfully, in my program, we wouldn't have it any other way where you are helping the person next to you. And I'll give you an example of that. Um at Area Marching this past year, uh, one of the things that our students love to do is go around to talk to the other bands in the parking lot. And and that's they're out there creating memories. I know what we often talk about like your memories when you look back are not going to be your score. They're gonna be the memories of meeting those kids and having getting rained on in the middle of a performance and and giggling and laughing and having a blast with other people. Um, and one of the cool things about it is I saw our kids go on on TikTok because you know, TikTok can get very local sometimes. So, not that I'm I'm certainly not following or or friends with any students on TikTok, but they come up and you'll see, you know, a band kid from another town will post something. And and I'll see our very own kids, the ones who I can identify, they'll they'll be like, oh, you know, y'all, y'all were awesome. We really loved your show. Great job. And I'll ask that kid, I was like, hey, I saw that comment you made on TikTok. I'm really proud of you for saying that. But I gotta ask, like, I don't think you even saw their show. And they're like, oh, we didn't, but we just wanted a Tom, good job. You know, and uh, and and I I think that that comes from the culture that we should be creating in our in our band halls. Not and and competition um can be a fun and a spirited thing. It also plays a significant role beyond the classroom. And I think this is where we get into the reality of competition and what it does for our programs. Uh, visibility and credibility. Now, we know that our programs are credible with or without competition, but it creates credibility um with other people who are involved in in music and uh or are involved in in school and school districts. So uh it helps bring that a little bit closer to home and provides that level of support for schools and communities. And whether it's ratings or finals or uh even a measurable growth, it translates into support from not only your town, but your school, your administrators. Um, and it often leads to better funding and stronger staffing and more opportunities for students. Um, yes, we didn't have the calendar that we probably had 30 years ago, but we also don't have the staff that we had 30 years ago. I know Fredericksburg didn't, and I know a lot of the other schools that don't have the staff and the resources that um they had 30 years ago, they have they have much more in abundance, um, regardless of trends and and um and politicalness and and things like that uh to that nature. So, just as importantly, I think competition helps develop student confidence and resilience. Uh performing under pressure and receiving feedback is something that um we have to do in our life. And I think it it appeals to that. Uh, but at the same time, students are also in a big group. And so they're able to enjoy it for music and the competitiveness, and it does not speak to everybody, but that competitiveness can can be a secondary or even further down on the priority list for students and still have a wonderful experience in band programs. I think the self-confidence that it gives students uh because we're able to support our music programs and uh and and grow through our musical talent and performance uh is really what it comes down to. And anything we can do to promote that um it can and should be a good thing. Uh, but these experiences, when they're guided appropriately, can be incredibly valuable. And I want to be clear competition is not all positive. It has a toxicness uh to it, and it is definitely present in music programs today and probably has been for you know decades and generations. Uh, and it can be overemphasized, it can be misused. Uh, but those are issues of implementation, not necessarily the concept itself. And I think that speaks more to the people who created those environments, whether it's directors or school districts uh or even the students themselves. Uh it's the responsibility on us as educators is to focus on that growth and the artistry and the student experience. And when competition can be used for a tool and not as the end goal, I don't think it takes away from music education. It actually strengthens it, it elevates it, and ultimately creates a more engaged and competent, capable student and music program for our schools. And so that's that.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Great opening statements, guys. That's the first part of this debate. Or we've agreed for the second part of the debate. Each uh person will submit a point and uh talk to that point, and the uh other person will give a rebuttal to that point. And uh, if you could, gentlemen, keep it about two minutes so we can cover lots of material. If we go, we're not keeping a timer up here, you know. So just kind of keep it in that area. So uh Steven, you're first up, my friend. So what what's one point you'd like to make?

SPEAKER_04 18:22

Yeah, I did good. I took notes and and thank you. I thought that was a great opening statement. Um I guess what I would like to say is many of the things you talked about, I think were the positive aspects of any team activity and especially music making. And I took notes. You know, you said things like uh performance and feedback. That's not a competition, that's just performing and getting feedback, right? And as I looked through all of these things, I could not come up with a single one of these things that requires ranking or rating of people in order to get the benefit. So I guess my my counterpoint would be in what times is the rating or the ranking required? Because otherwise, it's just getting together and making music, which I wholeheartedly endorse, getting feedback from respected people, celebrating everybody doing a good job. I endorse every single bit of that. But I have a big problem with ranking and rating, and that's the only thing that, you know, I you like that's the competition aspect. Everything else is just like the awesomeness of music. So uh I think I did that in under two minutes. That would be my question. What are the things that we're talking about today require the ranking and rating in order for it to be beneficial? And why?

SPEAKER_03 19:30

I don't think any of it is required. Um, and so again, uh we're gonna find a lot of middle ground and similarity in in our belief system, of course, because we're music educators first before we're competitors. And uh I've actually had to explain that to students before. Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do this? It's like, because I'm a teacher first before I'm a competitor. And uh, and so uh I'm not disagreeing with that statement. However, I think um the part of competition that implements into that is used as a tool into what we're doing. And I think it adds a lot of credibility um to the feedback. And so um I think we can also look at uh when you bring in a clinician, if you hear a clinician say, uh, you know, hey, we need to make sure that we're playing with a really good open sound right here, and and clarinets, y'all are y'all need to bring out your moving line and saxophones, you're always too loud, and you know, all the common pitfalls. Uh how many times have we heard a clinician say it? And the band director goes, I've been telling them that. And uh, and so uh again, is that needed for competition? No, but it does get a little bit of uh credibility to some of the statements that we're trying to teach them, some of the concepts we're trying to teach them. Uh and then I would also uh add in that used as a tool, again, not as the main focus, uh the the motivation aspect. I mean, human beings are mostly, uh I would say most human beings are uh they're they're in they enjoy competition. It's fun for them. Um, it can be used as a tool for motivation, it can be used as a tool for improvement. Uh, and I have seen so many students that have used competition as a motivator to get better and then fall in love with music. And and that's kind of where I'm talking about um a more real-world example because I think I've just seen it happen so many times. Again, not necessary. Um, we can certainly have band and choir and orchestra without competition. And it can certainly be done at a high level. I just think competition is uh allows that those programs to develop faster and uh become better and become more supported in their communities.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Very cool. Thank you, gentlemen. And Brian, is there a uh separate point you'd like to make that we could see uh Steven's rebuttal?

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Uh sure. I I think um I would like to hear what Stephen, what you think about the support system when it comes to um the everyday school district. Now, obviously. I'm very rooted in Texas. Um, I've only taught in Texas. And and you, my friend, have been able to be much more traveled in around the school music programs. And um, I I look at school music programs from afar. So I'm gonna be a little naive in in what the facts that I know. But from what I understand, Texas is is at least one of the few places in the country that has uh a very supported music education system. And um I think with the competition uh that we put emphasis that we do tend to put on it in Texas, although it can be negative in a lot of ways, um, I think it's allowed so many programs to flourish from out in the middle of nowhere to in inside the big cities and and everywhere in between, whether it's size or social economic background. Uh and I don't know that that's happening and across the nation.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

All right, Steven. Yeah. So, first of all, there are great programs in lots of places. So um, you know, our wealthiest suburban bands that play at Midwest are phenomenal to behold. And they are some of the best supported bands financially in the country. And it may be that those specific programs used competition to get their resources. That may be the case. But there's actually really fantastic band programs in other states too, and other really good band directors and other really good music educators. And so I have some deep questions about exactly how we define those things and then the attribution. Like, is it because we go to competitions that we have good resources? Is it because we're really exposed? Like the we, you know, the other thing that's really unique about Texas is we play at all the football games and we have a big football culture. And I don't know how much the supportive band programs is a direct tag along to just how exposed they are into football. You know, every single town, you're gonna see that band every week. And so if it's not good, it reflects on the school differently than if uh, you know, you only need an eight-piece basketball band or something, right? So I think there's lots of contributing factors, not the least of which we have a culture of uh, you know, really great teachers too. And I don't think because they compete is why they're good. I I don't, I mean, like I think there's lots of reasons for that. We have great colleges, you know. Um, what I would say is that winning trophies is going to work for some percentage of schools. And almost winning trophies is going to work for some percentage of schools, but it's on the back of a lot of programs that are seen as useless and are never going to be supported because if they don't lose, then the winning doesn't mean anything. And so, you know, I've been fortunate enough to work with schools where, you know, they don't have consistent feeders, they don't have realistic budgets, you know, uh, like 5A inner city schools that have a smaller budget than I had in rural Texas, you know, like that's a very real thing. And these competition structures are not doing anything good for them, but those structures require them in order to have other people labeled as winners, right? And so to whatever extent people use these things to advocate for resources, that may be one way to get resources. But I would argue there's a lot of other ways to get resources. I think the band programs need to sound good. I think that really matters, you know? Um, whether or not they sound better than somebody else with different resources and a different group of kids, I don't think that matters as much. But what really matters is showing up at the nursing home, showing up at civic events, making sure that your community is deeply integrated in what's happening with the band program. And that's a really powerful and sustainable way that every single school can advocate for resources. So that would be my argument. There's good programs everywhere. I wouldn't deny that our competitive structure in Texas has been used by many programs to advocate for more resources. I just think that's it's kind of an interesting system, isn't it? And maybe, maybe there are other ways that we could do that that don't require programs to lose in order for our program to advocate for resources.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Yeah, and I would I would say that I think uh, I mean, you're absolutely right. There's there's many ways to advocate for your program and many ways to uh um grow a program, whether musically numbers-wise, budget-wise, anything. Um, and that's one of the reasons why I think UIL is such a great system. Um, it not without its flaws, of course, but you have the option um of number one, just doing UIL, period. Um, obviously you're gonna have the the stressors of uh admin who are gonna require it, but I think that's actually uh used as a scapegoat from a lot of different people. Um at least I've worked in you know about five different school districts. And um I think if I came to any of my administrators and explained why I didn't want to do UIL that year and gave them a thought-out student-centered um process of why, um, it'd be pretty easy to not do it. Um I I probably am the minority because I I hear that sound bite uh from the other side, not from Steven, but from other people so often. But uh I would also say that the UIL system set up with the rating system as opposed to you know, outside of marching band, uh, a placement system um allows for um you to see as a student and as a director your progress. Um, my first year as a teacher, I made a three in sight reading and I made a two on stage. And my next year, I made a three on stage and a three in sight reading, and I did not improve that year. And so I was able to get you know feedback on what I was doing as a teacher. I was able to get feedback from my students on how they're playing, and I was able to use that as a as a big time tool to um just become a better teacher. And uh, and throughout the system of UIL, um, I appreciate that you know you can do a lot of different things and it's set up for a way for you to use it as a tool and not necessarily use it as just the competitive force of it. Um, marching band is obviously unique uh in that aspect, and and that's probably the one that gets abused the most. And I will say abuse uh when it comes to competition and what we're talking about, that toxic competitive culture. Uh, but I just I put a lot of faith in behind our UIL system and the way we're able to use that. Um, the other thing I I do want to acknowledge is um that writing system in itself, uh a lot of times it's the the ones and the everybody else's. Um and that's I think a culture that our band directors have created, that us as educators have created. Um, I don't see that as a culture that UIL has necessarily created. Um, I don't know their intent behind everything. Um, but I know you can go to state uh solo and ensemble and you get a medal for getting a two. And and and still it's seen as bad, you know. And so it but never mind you're at state and in and appreciating that. Uh, but I feel like maybe us as uh educators have soiled that um that's the integrity of the system in that way.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

All right. Steven, you want to make a point and have uh Brian.

SPEAKER_04 29:04

Yeah, yeah. I have I have a lot of thoughts about the UIL system. And again, as a as a participant for many years, as a student and a director. And, you know, there's a lot of things I like. Like, you know, the feedback. I really like getting feedback. I like getting my band out. And I especially like, although we don't encourage this in our state like they do in other states, um, seeing other groups perform. And it's a big part of it. Like a lot of states, they require that when you go to adjudication, you watch other groups perform. You know, um, I again, I don't think the thing that makes it good is that at the end of it, they stick a number on it. And I think maybe the numbers are the most problematic part of that system. Uh, you know, I know we're saying I don't know when I it when it got better, when it got worse, you know, getting that feedback, that kind of thing. But, you know, your band can get better and your ratings can get worse. That's a normal experience that lots of people have had. Um, and then I also, whenever I notice all the directors talking about this, the trophy goes in the band hall, but the directors are talking about their scores. You know, this is what I scored, this is what, you know, and in that regard, I think directors get a lot of feedback from these things, you know. But at least a quarter of the kids in your high school band graduated, and so they don't know how they're going to do better next year. And this is the end of it for them, right? So there's there's a lot of things about that that I really question. You know, putting the number on at the end, I think is the least helpful part. The feedback has been great. I also have been in competitions as a student, as a director, and as a judge, where almost never do I disagree with the feedback. Like sometimes it could have been stated better, but generally the feedback is right, okay. But then there have been lots of times I've disagreed with scores where I would have given a different score to that group. I would say I've never been to a contest where I watched multiple groups and there weren't some that I would have scored differently. And you know that's true because the judge's scores are not consistent. Okay. So again, if we taught, think about the UIL system and all the things we think are wonderful. What of the good parts come primarily from that score? And what of the bad parts? And I would say 90% of the bad parts come from the ratings and the rankings, and you know, 10% of the good parts. And then meanwhile, 90% of the good stuff comes from other things that are part of that structure. So not against a structure, not against clinicians, not against seeing other groups, not against getting feedback, not against uh one of those clinicians, you know, grab you on the shoulder afterwards and being like, dude, you got to start listening for tuning because they're crashing into burning. And I think my desire to make my music more authentic, to help my students learn and grow is enough to motivate me to take that feedback. I don't need the threat of the score, which I think tends to, regardless of how we want to sugarcoat it, amount to public praise or public embarrassment for our students and for ourselves. And again, I know you don't have to think about it that way, but I think you kind of do. You know, we said it's a five-rating system, it's a one and everything else. I don't think most people that care at all about the ratings are ever going to be happy with anything less than a one. And I think that's again, how the that just is the nature of it. It's like the design of its system itself makes these things. And when you don't see that, it's because uh we've managed to overcome that disincentive. Like we've managed to be so, and then by the point you get to there, you've got to ask yourself, well, what were those ratings actually for? That'd be my my counterpoint there. Oh, by the way, one other thing. Uh, speaking of a national standpoint, we are one of like one or two states that publicly archive and publish everybody's UIL rankings. And I basically have two things I would change about the UIL system that I think are realistic. So this is my big pitch. This is what I would do. Number one, I would allow people to go for comment only. Okay, leave the ratings for everyone that wants them, but allow people to participate in the system and get that 90% of the good stuff, you know, without having to do the ratings. I think that'd be very powerful. The second thing is I would stop publishing and archiving the scores. It is not uncommon in Texas to apply for a position. And we do two things in Texas, not every school, but a lot of schools, where if you don't have UIL history, you could be the best band director that ever lived, but you taught in a different state. A lot of schools, that's the same as having zero band experience. Uh, additionally, um, a lot of places before you ever are called in for an interview, they're going to look up your UIL history, and you may not get that interview if it's not what they want to see. Which, why in that case, would any band director in Texas who cares about their career ever go somewhere where it's challenging to get those if they care about that system? So that would be my again, my counter-argument to those things. I hope that's not coming across rough. Again, I don't think anyone meant the way that it works exactly. But I think you it whether or not you see it in your individual program, I think we see it across the state to at least some reasonable extent.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

Yeah, that was definitely I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

It's that was definitely one question I was going to get your thoughts from. So I'm I'm glad you brought that up, Stephen. But kind of going to Brian, um, one thought that goes through my head is competition, whether I agree with it or disagree with it, it's part of the process of me uh getting more money, better jobs. Um, my job right now is a clinician, and I think very few directors hire me to come into their school on the idea of they just want better music education for their children. I hate to say that. It's toxic in that way, but it's like, what can my clone do to increase my scores? You know, and then they get other clinicians as well. So Steven knows really good thoughts on that. I I've I I'm real curious about the idea. That's interesting that other states don't publish things because I just kind of grew up with that, you know. So that's a very interesting point. Ryan, what are your thoughts on that as far as careers, UIL producement, competition jobs?

SPEAKER_03 34:38

I think uh man, publishing the scores, uh uh that that would definitely like you you said that, and I was like, well, man, my my ego, I want I want to see what everyone else is doing. And and that is a comparative thing. So uh yeah, kudos to that. And I I would love to see UIL offer a comments only um option. Um, I don't think many would take it, um, but there are definitely some who would and would benefit greatly from it. Um, would you say it's reasonable that most people's uh excuse me, most band directors' ears and um way to critique themselves and the and their band change from like your first year to your tenth year. Is that a reasonable thing to say?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

I would say so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Okay. So one of the things that happened for me that were education again used as a tool. This I I could have figured this out many other ways, but uh sorry, not education, competition. Competition was used as a tool for me. Was um, I went to a marching contest very early on in my career, and I thought we were really good. And I had clinicians come in and tell me we were really good. And I went to that contest and I got a three. And, you know, to some bait, some people, three would be devastating. Two is like, ugh, but three is, you know, to some. And then of course, like you like you said, the other two ratings, whether they're used or not. Um, but I obviously was stunned by that, but I really took getting that and trying to understand why we received that to better myself as a teacher and take those comments for what they were. Whereas I don't know if I would have took those comments as seriously if I wasn't given a rating. And maybe that's a flaw in in my way of thinking, and I I can certainly accept that. Um, but throughout my career, I've been able to get to the point where I now can look back on that and I say, how did I ever think that that was good? And I mean good because it doesn't sound good. You said bands need to sound good, it just didn't sound good. And uh and and and I thought in the moment that we sounded phenomenal. And uh and I can look back now because I've been able to hone in my skills from the the feedback and the ratings and to understand where I've definitely gotten feedback before that um how many of us have seen uh a sheet that was nothing but praise and get a two, or fill up a sheet full of criticisms and get a one. And so they're not we they definitely are there's a human and artistic element to judging as just like there is music. But I think that I took those um comments much more seriously and was able to really investigate why I'm not getting the results that I want. And that really became helped me become a better teacher, as well as help my students become better students. Again, not the only way to do it, certainly not. Um, music existed long before competition, long before UIL uh ever was a thing. Uh and so that that's I know shocking, right? Uh and and you know, I John Phillips Sousa wasn't going around trying to get a one, you know, he just wanted his band to sound really, really good. And and he made that happen. And so um, again, that the inherent argument is not for me to disagree, but to to see that competition is just uh I really view it as something that helps on so many different levels. And um, if we are not looking at education uh and competition objectively when it comes to the toxic uh and and negative views on that and addressing that, then I think that we're failing as educators, not necessarily the competitive system.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And Stephen, can you give us uh kind of your ideas? Because we've talked a lot on the phone. We we have our uh we have our own podcast just between Stephen and I. We call each other and uh vent and talk about things. But he has a uh a really interesting approach to how to do music in school. So I'm gonna give you a chance right now to kind of pitch kind of your your ideas with modern music, etc., with a modern band approach. So go for it, my friend.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Yeah, well, let me let me keep this a little narrower than our conversations. Okay. Uh, but the the main things that I would say is that I feel like and and again, I want I want to be really specific about what competition is. Everything we've talked about today, the only aspects that were competition were doing the thing and then ending with a numeric ranking or rating. None of the rest of it was competition, right? Getting the feedback, everything else, none of that was competition. We use competition, I think, as a shortcut. And this is not just competition, it's all extrinsic motivation. You know, it's a shortcut to get from what we perceive to be the basic state of all the students, that they would literally do nothing, to getting them to do this thing that we want them to do. Um, and I think that's where the problem is, is that and and there's a mix of this, and this doesn't have to not exist within places where you're doing competitions, but I think competitions do get in the way. And um, that is what I want is for the student to want the thing, and that's where they do it, not because um I've managed to use my power to make them do it, right? Um so again, there is a huge difference between someone who picks up a clarinet like me as a kid and loves the way it sounds and listens to all their favorite clarinet players and really wants to be able to reproduce that, and someone who's trying to win a contest or get a grade. Those motivations are profoundly different. It's the reason that I still pick up my clarinet every single week in practice, and I still listen to a lot of those people. Um, it is harder to make people do that. You have to like do a lot of work to make that inviting where you want to come into it, saying, Hey, if you guys work really hard, we get to do this really cool trip and everyone's gonna celebrate. That's really easy compared to, you know, the actual act of you know helping people fall in love with making music. That being said, we're so lucky that it's music and not so many other things. You know, it is completely normal to walk up to someone who is uh an all-state musician in Texas. So maybe say the best trombone player in the state of Texas, 5A6A. And if you were to be like, oh my God, this is amazing. How long have you been playing? They'd say seven years. I go, wow, that's amazing. Who's your favorite trombone player? And nine out of 10 times, they're gonna look at you like you're crazy. Like they literally cannot name a single trombone player. And then you go, hey, would what's your favorite song? Could you just play me a cool song on the trombone? They're like, no, I don't know any songs. I can play my part from the marching show. I can play the audition music, but I can't just play songs that I like. The what we get to through these competition systems is so far removed from the ways that people actually engage with music outside of schools that I think we lose a lot. Uh I think we lose a lot. And so it's a challenge if you step outside of extrinsic motivation. It requires a lot of changes to the way that you operate. Um, I will say, you know, some things we said earlier. I don't, I think a lot of humans don't enjoy competition. There's a lot of culturals that are not nearly as competitive as we are in the United States. Like we really we look at competition as being this really wonderful thing. But I mean, pretty much every major religion speaks out against being competitive, you know, like like literally, I would not argue that humans at base enjoy competition universally. I don't think that's a universal value. Um, I think, especially too, even when we're talking about things like building character, I don't know about you. I've had so much disappointment in my life and failure that was not set up in some type of competition, just like living life and trying to do things. I don't feel like anyone needed to create extra unnecessary failure for me in order to develop those skills. I was encountering plenty natural. Maybe somebody else is way more successful than me. So my argument is that we should be playing these instruments because we love making music. We should make music because it's fun to make music sound better, because it's more expressive. But that is a completely different art than extrinsic motivation, which, you know, is grades, competitions, all these things I find to be really challenging compared to deeper things. If you say, okay, instead of doing competitions, we're gonna do nothing, probably competitions are better than that. But if you say instead of doing competitions, we're gonna continue to perform for feedback, but maybe now we're gonna go play at the nursing home and we're gonna take and we're gonna do some composition and improvisation as a part of our class. And you want this next year, the kids are gonna help design the marching show because we can take risk. Because if we, you know, so long as it's authentic to the kids and the crowd loves it. Oh, can you imagine a world where the marching band was about entertaining the crowd at football games and we learned a new show every couple of weeks? That would roll back time, like 40 or 50 years. So that's what I'm saying is you know, you don't have to switch to teaching modern band or something else to think about this all differently. I think you you were exactly right. We've been making this argument as a profession for at least 100 years. It seems like a lot of these structures developed between the 1920s and the 1940s, like all in there. And, you know, from what I understand, the rating system was a direct result to all the problems. Problems with ranking systems. But then I think still we have those inherent same type of challenges. So it takes a lot of thought. But I would say if basically the ranking UIL system is 100 years old, and I think about my grandpa, he'd be 115, he had polio as a kid. If we could solve polios, polio, we could probably improve the way that we adjudicate and help directors and advocate for resources and all of these things. I can't believe that the system we came up with 100 years ago is the best way to do it still. I don't know if that was a good answer, Mike, but that's those are the answer. That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

So can I can I jump in on that? Yes, you go for it, Brian. So let me ask you to put this back on a different avenue. Um I think we we can be in it for the love of the game. You know, we can we can do it. And kids have a blast. Like uh uh like I said earlier, we talked to the kids about all the memories they're gonna remember. They're not gonna really remember. They might remember winning a big competition, but they're gonna remember that bus ride and that conversation that they had with that kid, they're gonna remember how they felt after a performance on a Friday night. Um, they're gonna remember that really, really good concert that they played. Uh, at least I do, and uh, and I think a lot of people uh echo that in in the circles that I'm around. Um, but what about you know, the the system we have is what we have. And um if we look at, for lack of a better term, Bubba, Bubba administrator, and um, and they're very data driven. And music in itself is not so much data, at least not that we can portray, I think, very coherently uh to someone who's a numbers person. Uh, and we're trying to get support for our programs. And if we were just to get rid of it, what about all the support that would miss out on? And then furthermore, never mind support, what about all the kids that would no longer participate because of either that lack of support or because we weren't able to fully um uh fund or have enough teachers or support having a large program and where it's really just going to be limited uh into what we have uh equipment-wise and and um and support-wise, or even if we can get a bus to go to a game or anything like that. Um what's your solution to that? And I I I promise I'm not challenging an adversario way. I really do want to know what would your solution be to the 2026 way of doing things that we would need such a paradigm shift uh to get away from competition.

SPEAKER_04 46:30

Well, I want to start again by saying there's a lot of programs right now that are not getting resources due to their contest results. Like there are a lot of people that are damaged right now, that literally, you know, um their programs are not supported. And it wasn't because they weren't doing well. A lot of it's because of the current political climate. I think we're all in trouble for resources, if I'm gonna be completely honest, over the next 10 or 15 years. I'm very, very concerned about it. I was just in Miami and they were talking about how um they'd done such a movement to privatize schools and they'd gotten rid of a lot of the middle schools and replaced them with academies, and the academies didn't have um, you know, any uh athletics or fine arts, right? Um, and I'm seeing the same thing happen here in San Antonio. They're shutting down schools, they're replacing them with, you know, these uh uh non-district charters that are taking over public facilities and doing this. So I'm really concerned about all of that. Um, and it has it has not saved us that we're all going to contest. Like we are seeing that exact thing happening right now. You know, how do you argue with an administrator who doesn't believe that teaching music is valuable and doesn't want to give you enough resources? Like that's the question we're all asking because for some of them saying, well, if we get more, we might win is also not a great way to advocate for those things, you know? Um, could we do feedback in a way where it's directed mainly to the administrators and to the teachers? Maybe. I thought, you know, one of the problems with our adjudication system is it's not very well contexted. Like, yeah, you compete based on division, but you don't compete based on resources or the socioeconomic status. Like it's almost impossible for me to give a rating if I don't actually know where they started and what they're dealing with and what those things are. Like a first division for a band that meets five days a week versus a first division for a band that makes meets two days a week, I think are a different standard, but that's not on our rubrics. We don't know what that is. So, you know, this has been challenging. I don't think there's a better answer to making people understand how much it matters than to go and matter really hard within your community. Like I think when it comes to the deeper, longer term, how do we keep this thing going for the next 50 years? I don't think contest is going to save us. I think if anything, the trend we've seen, especially with marching band over the last 40 years, is going to hasten the end of large ensemble programs. Like I'm actually really concerned about that. So we have to admit that we are at an extreme when lots of schools go to, you know, two or three dozen contests a year when you consider winterline and winter guard and pre-UIL and all region, and you know, that's that's huge. That's, you know, so I I guess my question is if an administrator only values winning a contest, it's going to be hard to convince them that anything that really matters matters because they don't get it, you know. But I've had a lot of administrators, I'm like with you, where if I can show them how this is student-centered, and again, you don't replace going to contest with doing nothing, you know, like uh, but it requires real advocacy, not just here's how we win or here's how we make the school look good. Like it's just, it's, it's, it's harder. I'll I'll agree that it's harder. I don't think it's impossible though. I think there's really good programs, you know, across the world that don't do competitions or incredibly minimize it where it's one day of the year and still have reasonable support for their their programs. So anyway, don't know that it's good. That's why I keep setting timers for myself.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

No, it's great. It's great. I love it. And uh do you think that uh let's use marching band uh for example, because I can go look up so-and-so's marching band from 2014 a lot easier than I can their their spring concert. Um so I'm just looking at, you know, I was looking at our own programs in our own area, like, oh, you know, how how how are these guys back in the day, you know? And and we always hear, and and uh so if I'm offending anybody, you know, I get that comment back in my day. There was only one all-state band, but I'm like, have you heard the all-state bands these year, you know, this year? Like they're incredible all the way down to the smallest one. And uh, and all the cool things we're doing. Um, obviously, programs that I've been a part of have have grown and been successful, and that's not beating my own chest. It's just that's my first hand knowledge. But I see a lot of programs that are bigger, that are better, well, you know, better quality. Uh their shows are are they they're sounding much better, they're playing more difficult music. They, you know, they've grown. Um, and I think that, you know, I can't tell you for sure whether uh competition was a part of that, but I certainly think it has an influence. It was definitely used as a tool. And you and seeing these programs grow, that just means more kids are experiencing it. And all these things that we're doing now with the the extra stuff, yes, we can definitely go too far. Uh we don't do indoor drumline because I think my my staff would riot and probably our kids too, but some people use that as a really awesome tool to you know just expand their program and and involve more kids. And um, I I really think competition has been a big part of that. And I again, I don't know these programs personally. I can't tell you for sure. Um, but I I I think just even 10 years ago, I know at the foray level that we're at, the the game has changed. Uh, the quality, the musicianship, the the size of the programs has all seems to be better, again, my opinion, but that's that's what I tend to see.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

I I would think that's gonna depend very much on the school, you know. Um, and and also I would say the other thing that I think about a lot is, you know, if participating in band requires, you know, eight hours of work outside of school and you know, 25 or 30 weekends, you know, that's not how people make music outside of school. Like nobody puts that much time into a music hobby, maybe into a music career, maybe into mute majoring in music. But like, think about how, you know, when marching band was we rehearse during the day, you know, we've got an outside of school jazz band and we play the football games and that's it. That was accessible to a lot more students, though. You you see what I'm saying? So I I mean, I it's gonna depend on where you're at. There's places where program support is very strong. You know, again, I'm seeing a very different thing here in inner city San Antonio. You know, if you compare the programs to 40 or 50 years ago, a lot of them are a lot smaller. So that's it's it's gonna depend on where you are. And the competition system, I think, for a lot of these programs is not helping them. Sure. You know, and there's really good directors doing really great work, but when all your kids are beginners in ninth grade and then out in the suburban district, they've got a very clear feeder system with consistent pedagogy from kindergarten through 12. Like it's just a completely different thing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 53:08

So so would you say that the competition system is not helping them, or the competition system inherently caused it?

SPEAKER_04 53:18

Oh, that's a great question. I would say that it's holding them back, you know, because once again, it's a big career risk to take on one of these schools.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

I mean I agree.

SPEAKER_04 53:27

But uh, sorry Oh, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

What was the same cost? I know. Sorry, the the delay. No, you're gonna uh let me jump in real quick. Uh um, I know several San Antonio uh band directors, and they're incredible in inner city San Antonio. Uh so I think that they do have good teachers. Is that does that make it a more desirable location? Definitely. Like I I totally get that and agree with that point. Um, but I think that there's uh inherent problems in inner city schools and our education system more than a competition. Competition is not helping them. I could agree with that. I mean, I that's it's obviously not. And um, but the I don't know that competition was the cause of that. And I don't think that's what you're saying either, but that's that's was my question.

SPEAKER_04 54:15

Yeah, well, I and again, I want to get all the way down to what competition is. It's only the rating and the ranking. Have you done musical events where you see lots of groups perform? I can think of at least one that I know you did. Uh, but have you gone where where people perform and they don't compete?

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Yes. Oh, yeah. I'm going next week.

SPEAKER_04 54:32

Do the kids walk away excited about what they're seeing and do they have a positive experience generally?

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Um, I think so. Um, I will say, uh in preparing for that, um, my kids are not as focused. Um and I I don't know it will take full ownership if that's a reflection on me as a teacher. Um, but I feel like they're not there, there's just a little bit of shine that's lost on that. And uh uh, but you know, they're also really want to do well and they want to perform. And so I know that as we get closer to it, you know, we're gonna we're gonna continue to polish it and they're gonna continue to work. But there's just a little there's a little bit of edge taken off of it, I think, um, in in the in the kids' minds and in just the way they're working. Uh, but we're still gonna have a great experience because I know we're gonna play well and I know that they're gonna feel proud of what they're doing. So yeah, I mean, uh again, it's a tool.

SPEAKER_04 55:22

How how much of that do you think is the subtle influence over time that, oh, this isn't a competition, it doesn't count? Like, because we we like there's an implicit suggestion of that that comes with there being competitions, right? Like the structure of a competition says this day, this performance is more important than all the others. Whether you say that aloud or just indicate it, you know, through preparation or whatever else, or through the fact there's an award attached, it does elevate that above the other things that you're doing by the design. Do you think that, you know, by extension means that the reasons for making music, like, oh, well, we're just doing this because making music is awesome, that that doesn't ring as being as valuable if we do that? Because that that that's the that's the effect in the in the research, is that when you introduce extrinsic motivation, you actually minimize the intrinsic motivations for doing it.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

I feel like you one can lead to the other. Um, I think we can use the intrinsic motivation because it does speak to a lot of different students, uh, at least in my opinion. And then we can use that to I, you know, I go to us and I I hate being fair, I hate playing graduation. I'm not a ceremonial person. Uh, I do not enjoy graduation most of the time. I'm sad to see these kids leaving, and I I don't want to have to do a job when I want to celebrate, you know, these students. Uh, but that being said, one of the things we talk to our kids about is not only about playing the very best that you can play, whether we're playing 20 minutes of pomp and circumstance, or we're playing some special music, or we're playing school song, um, we should always perform our best because that's that's what we teach here. That's, you know, you should always try your best at everything you do. You can go into lots of different discussions on reputation and whatnot. But then also, this is one of the biggest audiences you're ever going to play for. And this is the people that love you, that support you. We're celebrating people who have been a part of this program, uh, been a part of our school, been a part of our community, you know, and so we put a lot of emphasis on why performing well is important. And that rarely has to do with anything with competition. Um, and I recently met with my new drum majors for next year. And the first thing we talked about was well, our goals for next year, what what do we see us? How do we grow? How do we become, as the way I put it, undeniable, not just better, but undeniable. Like everybody can see us perform and they see the joy and they see the music that we're making. And one of the drum majors go, Well, I really want a medal at state. And I said, That's great. I'm glad that you want a meddle at state. I want that for you. But let's think about what if we don't meddle at state? How is next year going to be awesome? And, you know, so I think we can, if we would put a tamper on the toxicity of it and use it more as a tool, which uh I know is what I always strive to do. And I'm sure you'd you you would agree with that to at least some extent, that competition can be useful to a lot of different people. Um, I think we just have different philosophies on what we're saying. Um, but tell me if I'm I'm incorrect in that.

SPEAKER_04 58:21

Oh, I well, that's why I wanted to open my argument with that competitions have benefits. You know, that like there's there's a reason that we do them. Um, I just think there's more authentic ways to get all those benefits. So again, you know, a kid who wants to win state marching contest is going to operate very differently than someone who, you know, really likes playing their instrument and thinks that the marching band environment, you know, being at the games is so fun and their mom was in it, so they want to do it too. And that's their primary motivation. That's such a better motivation than state marching contest. Because let's let's be honest, you know, one one band per classification is going to win state marching contests. We created a system where you get second place at state marching contests. Let's say your band never even got a first division, and the next year you get second place at state marching contest. The newspaper at home is going to say band falls short at state marching contest. Like, you know, um I'm actually I don't agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

I I don't think that would happen. I mean, that's a drastic example, of course, but I I I don't think that most people would say band falls short, or most newspapers or uh or most kids would not feel an immense amount of pride for that kind of accomplishment. And uh again, that is an extreme example. There you could make it a lot closer, make it much more difficult to defend. Uh, and I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

But uh, you know, I'll throw out kind of that example or circumstance. Um, I saw a band that was a perennial uh gold medalist, and then one year they came in third place and the kids were crying in the parking lot. So if you see it in the opposite direction, then yeah, sometimes there is a little bit of toxicity in there, even though it was a really great program, because the kids put so much into it, you know. So I don't know if it's toxic or it's just they're on that emotional is that necessarily is that necessarily a bad thing though, to be Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Is it is it's so upset about it? You know, you're almost saying like it's I I don't know this that that's what's so cool listening to you guys discuss this because it it is a cool debate.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:24

Well, it it's one of those things where um you know again, that all that's artificial. Like uh you know what everybody says about contests? They go, the results don't matter, right? Like that's how they try to push against the toxicity. And I would say that it you can't both say that and do it. Like you can't do it and not care about the results. Like again, it is there by design, you know. And I mean, do you remember the phenomenon with every other year state marching contest where there'd always be a drop in the senior class because kids couldn't go and that means they didn't like being in the band very much because it wasn't worth doing if there wasn't a contest to go to. That to me is a crisis of meaning, you know? And I think there is an extent of that in every program, and it can be way worse. Like you, you can overemphasize, you can underemphasize, but I think as long as you participate in those structures, there is this implicit message in the design of how it works that what matters is us being better than other people. And that's a big distraction from having this authentic meaning to the music making. And I've seen kids do both. You know, Mike talked about the other stuff. I the last gig I did, and this isn't a perfect parallel because it's not, it wasn't a marching band gig, but it was a music gig. We had no competitions, no required performances, no grades. And I had to stay late every single day while every square inch of the band hall was full of people who wanted to play music together. Like, you just I'm saying you don't need this stuff, and the costs are real, you know. Um, not that good stuff doesn't happen. I, when my kids were at state marching contest, they loved it. But as we were driving away, I saw this big banner a parent made it made that said, go win state. And I knew from the second that I saw that banner that there was going to be some big disappointment because we didn't have the money to win state marching contest. We uh we didn't have the type of show that would win state marching contest. And yeah, those kids worked hard and they put on a great show, but that was never going to be the case. You know, even the worst football team, you can kind of hope that, you know, that one other team you're competing, everybody breaks their legs, you know. But with marching band, either you've got a show that's gonna do that and you've got the budget or you don't. So again, that's an extreme that we have in state marching contest, but I think you see similar things across it. So anyway, that's yeah, again, I don't know if that's helpful or uh no, I think it's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

And I think that's where we have some common ground. Uh I'm definitely more gross over placement, you know. And I think if we if we allow that that kind of mindset to sneak in, you know, parents and community members are gonna want you to win, of course. But they're they're not but they're not gonna be devastated if you lose, you know, not parents and community members. Now, maybe that that perennial gold medalist, sure, but that's just a disappointment. And you still learn something from that. I I think you know, the there's over it pretty quick, by the way. Right, exactly, because kids are resilient, probably faster than the adults did. Yeah, you know, and uh, and so uh the goal is not to win at all costs, it's it's to pursue excellence with a purpose. And uh, and so I I think there's there's just such a way that you can have your cake and eat it too. And it's something I strive for every day in our band hall. And I really hope that a lot of directors are doing, and I believe they are because I see it in their programs. And um, and I think I can take the the small group that's overdoing it and set them aside, and it's a much smaller group than the ones who are not. And just some obviously, again, my opinion, but man, there's there's some really, really great programs out there that uh are doing a lot of awesome things, and winning, say, marching contests is not one of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

Can I can I jump in just real quick? I've loved listening to this. I have one question, and I hope it's not I hope it's not a powder kick, but I've talked to Mike before about one of his groups that they didn't accomplish necessarily what they set out to do, they got upset in the moment, and then they were like, okay, where's the pizza?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

And the memory was uh hanging out with their friends and doing stuff after the competition as much as it was uh you know going to the competition. Uh having said that, if we can agree, and I've heard Steven say this before, I've adopted it as something I like to say, if the student is the product, if the end goal for all of us as educators, if the student is the product, how much do you think competition is more about the director or about the educator? How much is the competition become so we can talk to our peers as opposed to if the kids get over it that fast? I'm not advocating it for or against because I grew up in competition and I I'm one of those people that feels like you know, real life involves some competition, whether we call it that or not. Um but do you understand my question? And I'm not trying to step on any toes. Have we created a system that the competition is more to uh to and and I think I was so glad to hear you all talk about maybe that rubric, maybe some of this is set up so a person like me who comes out of college with a lot of education but no real ear for balance and blend and that stuff, we have things that we can point to to say this is how our group could get better. But I don't think that a lot of the kids go to see other kids and go, Yeah, we gotta one. Or, you know, they don't value themselves in that. Maybe that's not clear enough, but I think that educators sometimes do.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:55

And I I'd like to give our students and our fellow band directors a lot more credit. Uh Because I don't think that it's a problem statewide and it's ingrained in every single bandhole throughout the state. I think it's a it's in the much of the minority where we're going overly competitive. Um, again, using it as a tool. Um, and is it fun to win? Of course it's fun to win. Uh, but cow, I've had some great seasons where we didn't win a thing. And just the kids had fun together. And uh, and I'm I tell the kids all the time, I'm not in the business of creating more band directors and really not even in the business of creating more musicians. I want to create good people and good citizens. And um, and and I see that a lot in our kids. Uh, one of the things that I uh this has nothing to do with Steven's point because I know he'll agree with me. Um, you know, I tell the kids, you know, you always have these people, kids these days just don't know how to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, kids these days are incredible. You have no idea the knowledge, the wisdom, the the pure talent that they just ooze out of their pores. And our future is going to be bright because they're doing such incredible things. But because you keep watching the news, you think education is failing. Uh, and you know, it's it they're doing such awesome things, and and our band directors are doing such awesome things. So I just I just want to give them some credit on that. Um, we can we can poke fun at the people who take it too far, and and and that is detriment to them and their kids, but that you're gonna have that in any profession, I think, in any system. Um, so anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:32

Yeah, I I uh I I like we agree on so many things. And I've been in your band hall before, and all your kids are so happy, you know. Like uh I and and again, there's so many things about what we do, even in marching band. And when I was a kid, I I did marching band. I wasn't a marching band kid. That wasn't my thing, right? Um, and as a director, I'm like, well, if we're doing it, we're gonna do it really well, you know? Uh like definitely that type of personality. But um, you know, there's a lot of things that appeal to a lot of kids about making music, about getting together, about going to football games, about playing cool songs, about doing neat marching shows. There's a lot of things that appeal to a lot of people about those things. And what I would say is what happened to me was the more I got into an understanding about, you know, just meaning and motivation and why we do things, the more I found extrinsic motivators, not just competitions, but anything to being something that I didn't really want to do anymore. And I would say that if you are a band director in Texas, it is way harder to be respected and to do what you're supposed to do if you believe that, than if you're all in on contest. So we have a system that doesn't really leave a lot of room for people to practice the point of view that I'm sharing. And I think that is a systematic problem, which is again why I would advocate for our systems to allow people to get feedback, to get the support that they need without needing to have their groups rated and ranked. You know, um, they're outside of music education. If you talk about music being a competition, nobody understands what you're talking about. You know, yeah, there's like some concerto contests and things for classical musicians, but they're coming out of school music. You know, like that's just not what music is for outside of school, period. Like if your central motivation for doing music is competitions and you leave school, you're very likely not to make music anymore. And you can have both. You can like competitions and also really enjoy playing your instrument. I think a lot of us uh who are in the profession have done that. There's also a lot of kids that love music but hate that environment and they're not in our data. They dropped out, you know, the first time they had to do a playing test or a chair test or when they had a bad result at all region and they never touched an instrument again. And if that was because they were put in a situation through competition, that doesn't reflect real life at all. So my I guess my big conclusion is I know a lot of people do competitions and really value it and see benefits. Like I said, there are some, but I would argue that there's a lot of ways to make music without competitions. There's ways to do band, marching band, all these things without competition. And you can get pretty much all of those benefits in other types of ways. Um, and I would love to see that be a more systematically available possibility for programs that feel that same way.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Yeah. Hey, I was gonna ask for closing statements, but I think y'all just did it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:23

Well, and that was awesome. If I'll throw in one more thing, um, and and not to not to draw back into a debate. Uh no, no, you're good. You're good. I kind of had a pre-planned like closing momentum. Uh so anyway, wrap it wrapping up the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:37

If you practiced, and you know, I have to declare the finger because this is I definitely didn't practice. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

It's not a competition, though. You know, um, no, uh, so you know, for what, for what it's worth, um, I think it's a great conversation to have. And why why should we have it? Because ultimately it's about our students and about what we're offering not only our students, but what we're offering society. We're putting hundreds, if not thousands, of kids into the world um with a with a love or disdain for music uh or and everywhere in between. So I you know, I just feel like life is competitive and uh there's just so much that it can teach you. And is it speak to everybody? No, it definitely doesn't. But when used intentionally and responsibly, uh, I feel like it's a very effective tool. And that's what it needs to be as a tool. It doesn't need to be the ultimate uh objective. Um, none is none of this to say is competition is perfect, of course. We've we've gone through that, but at its best, competition, of course, is not about trophies, but it's about striving for that excellence and seeing where that next step is, um, working on a common goal and discovering what you're capable of. And it just gives you that check mark, it gives you that data point, and uh, and people look up ratings because that's easy to do. And um, but I know I know tons of people to who don't get those ratings that somebody that's so-called successful, but they're very successful and they're also really respected. Is it harder for them to be seen in that light? Absolutely. Isn't it and is it harder for them to get the the better job? Absolutely. Um, but I know a bunch of people who love and respect them and who know that they're just doing such good work. Um, and so I I just want to give us a little bit more credit on that as a society that that that is definitely happening um in the walls of many, many band halls and in orchestra halls and choir halls throughout um not only our state, but throughout the country, I'm sure. Um, so whether the question, sorry, the question isn't really whether competition belongs in music education. It's whether you're willing to use it uh in the way that benefits your own students, because that's what we're all about. Uh when we do that, I feel like the impact is is a huge net gain and positive for our students. Um, it doesn't take away from music education, it can help it to thrive. Of course, it has to be used responsibly.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

Steven, closing statement, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:00

Yeah, I don't think that the world, society, and everything is inherently competitive. I would argue that in most situations, if I'm having a conversation at dinner and other people are trying to conversation better than me, that's unpleasant. If I'm working with someone and their goal is to one up me and do everything better than me, that's pretty unpleasant. You know, um, there are certain capitalistic goals between companies that might lead to competition, but I would not argue that that has made society as a whole a whole lot better, that the competitive element is what happens. You know, I think a lot of times we would have met a lot of goals we have as people, as society better had we been more willing to work together. So uh I again see this as being a big, a big thing, you know. Um, I don't think kids have to learn about competition through school music. I think, you know, they can they can learn about competition through life. But again, very seldomly as an adult musician, in fact, never outside of school has it been a competition a single time that I can think of. If I get on the bandstand with someone and we're jamming and it turns into a competition, it's bad music. Where, you know, my job oftentimes is to support and to uplift. And I think there's so much value in music that we we don't need the other stuff. Like we just don't need it. Um, and so for me personally, that's the uh that's the way that I advocate. I think it's valuable. I think it's huge. You know, I think that if I have a goal and I care about it and I want excellence, that that's a good reason to work for it. And the fact that I might get a bad rating is a bad reason to work for excellence. And that's what I want for my kids. I want those lasting long term when the competition is over. The goal was to be good, just to be good. And I don't feel like, as a classroom teacher, that the perceived success of my students or my program should ever have been dependent on the perceived success or failure of any other school anywhere else. Um, and I agree that there are people that are doing amazing work and are never gonna get the ratings and rankings they deserve. And I think that's an indictment of how the system doesn't work for everybody. Um and also, you know, gosh, isn't life hard? You know, isn't it hard to go through all these things and have to figure out values and how to compensate? And I'm gonna be completely honest, in my marching band gig, I never got completely away from competition. Had I stuck it out at the same place, I might have. I had to move outside a marching band before I could convince myself to feel safe enough to completely let it go. And again, I think that I think that says something. If the idea, it's easier to, you know, see music education in Texas coming to an end than for us not to center it around competition. You know, it's been said before, and I think a lot of people feel that way. It's hard to imagine doing this just for education and nourishment and and growth and not needing those other carrots. But um, man, it's a fun topic to talk about. And a lot of people do it because again, we're we're kind of unique in Texas. We are at an extreme where even if you do competition just a little bit in Texas, you're doing it more than a lot of other places. Um, so it's good to good to talk about it here with my friends. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:06

And I tell you what, guys, it's uh, you know, it's so nice to hear such a professional conversation about something that could be a powder keg issue. And I found from uh seeing people from other parts of the nation that in a lot of times in Texas, we teach uh performance, which inherently becomes competition, uh, instead of teaching music. Think about that for a second. That's a different perspective on it. But you know, as in every debate, there's gonna be a winner. And I'm gonna declare the winner. The winner is me.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:38

I'm gonna say Mike.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

I I'm the winner because I got to hear some of absolutely incredible conversation from you guys. And the real winner is gonna be our listeners and even Derek. Okay, so I'm gonna turn this over to Derek.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:52

Derek, uh, this is probably the least I've ever talked in one of our episodes. And it's been fantastic. Just blessing with you, my I love you, Derek. Have you learned nothing from this conversation about competition? It's not about so, gentlemen, I just want to thank you both. Uh I thank you both for uh for for the pulpit that you stand in and that you stand for. And again, that we can do this because you're both great people. And Mike's okay. So I I appreciate y'all coming on. I I I just hope that we can uh uh have this conversation uh uh maybe again at some point, and uh just help everybody understand that uh it's okay to have an opinion, but it's also so great to hear another one and to be able to converse about it. I think that's lost in society. That's my bandstand I preach on civility is a lost art. So uh thank you for being civil. And I hope that hey, listen, Mike, I'm gonna throw this out there too. If anybody else has something they want to add to this conversation, please let us know. I'd love to hear feedback from this and we can share that. And uh and we all appreciate uh learning. I think that we would all agree with that. We're all open to being educated. So thanks, guys. I don't know any other way to say it. I hope you have a wonderful week. I hope that you're getting ready for uh whatever your uh post-school months look like. Uh I don't know that you get those anymore, Steven. You're probably Stephen really. 12 months all the time. But um y'all be great, be safe, and please be successful. And I I just hope you get the greatest reward out of what you do. So thanks again. Right back at you. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

You bet. Thank you guys. Love you guys.