Marching: From Learning to Mastery, The 5 Box Concept

Learning, Knowing, Understanding, Communicating, and Mastering. The five boxes your marching ensemble goes through on their way to becoming the most successful version of themselves. Listen this episode as Mike Lunney explains how our ensembles move from box to box, hopefully landing in the box of Mastery, that experience of communicating and sharing the vision with the audience (and the adjudicators) in a way that leaves no doubt about your ensemble's successful season!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Mike, have you ever heard that saying uh don't box me in, don't fence me in, don't put me in a box? You know, most people are saying that in kind of a negative aspect, but leave it to Mike Lenny to create an episode designed to put us all in a box.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Put you in a box. Now, I didn't create this system, but as an adjudicator, you must put the bands in boxes, you know, in order to maintain sanity. You know, all right.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

So explain to people what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

All right, first thing is a disclaimer, Stephen Cox, a good friend of mine. If you're listening to this episode, please just turn it off right now because you're gonna hate it. You know, because uh he he definitely doesn't and we were talking about this earlier. Um, Steven doesn't mind uh the boxes per se, but this whole episode is gonna be how do we compete better in marching band to get better scores? And he doesn't mind the idea of being in different boxes, he just he doesn't like the idea of the this band beating this band and whatever. And I respect that. I respect that. So, Steven, turn off your uh or love us through it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Your call.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, yeah, just pick me up next week, Steven. Love you, man. Okay. Um, but there's this box one through five marching band concept. Um, but you know, you learn, understand, learn, know, understand, communicate, and become. Those are the five boxes. It's a pedagogical framework designed to move performers from the surface level memorization to a total artistic performance. And some bands never get out of certain boxes, and I don't want people to get this wrong. The boxes don't correlate to the ratings directly. There's bands that'll be first division bands at a region contest for whatever state it might be, that might only get up to box two. Okay. Because if you can play your music and you can make no mistakes and play your show, it doesn't have to be artistic, it just has to be clean. And uh so I don't want people to think that, well, if we're box five, which is the highest box, that's a first division. If we're box one, that means we're gonna make a five, kind of a reverse golf scoring kind of thing. Sure. You know what I mean? So please don't make that correlation with this. Um, this can be relatable to ratings one through five, but it's not a direct comparison. Okay. Um, extremely useful in prepping for area and state, marching contest in Texas, as well as obviously for bands of America, BOA, U.S. bands, um, very influenced by DCI over the years. Uh in ancient times, we used what was called the tick system, and that's when the judges would follow Mike Lenny around the field with his little two-valve soprano bugle. And when I made a mistake, they held up their clipboard and smiled at me and went and put a mark, and you got a tenth of a point taken off your score for every tick on the sheet. And then we switched to a very much rewarding for what we were doing instead of subtracting for what we screwed up, and then it now it's kind of a mixture of both of them. Okay. Um, but that was ancient history. Um, region is all about being this. Is I'm gonna talk Texas right now, but region is all about being just clean. I really believe that. Um, and I hate to say it doesn't have to be artistic, it just has to be clean, but it doesn't have to be like ultra big giant productions, it just has to be clean. Uh and it has to be musical, but to be musical, it has to be clean. Okay, I think Eddie Green, a great, uh obviously one of the Yodas of all band directors, said uh there's nothing more unmusical than the right note in the wrong place. There's a lot of truth to that. So we can crescendo all we want to with a beautiful tone. If it's the wrong note or the right note in the wrong place, said uh then it's still not going to sound musical no matter what we do. Um but the difficulty of our show, for the most part, does not impact our rating at region. Okay. Yeah, so keep that in mind as a band director. So I think sometimes our band director crews, they they they think, well, if I just do a hard enough show, I can I can do better with my program. Um, that's not necessarily the truth. If you want to do well at area and state, that is definitely the truth. Your show better have some meat to it. There must be some meat on that bone, you know, to make it work. But if you if your goal is I'm just trying to rebuild this band, I showed up, there was 20 kids, and we're just we just want to do well. Um, let's forget about electronics and props and color guard silks and all that stuff and drill designers. Let's just let's put them on the blue dots and the field dots, and let's just make them at a four-step interval and let's play really clean, really clean with a fairly simple show, as simple as you need to make it, okay? And uh so what I've got here for you uh for the listeners, kind of a breakdown on how each stage functions in a high-level ensemble environment. So if we're trying to create a band that can move from one box to another from the beginning of summer band to the point of where there's the last show, these are the things we're looking for, Mr. D.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Can I ask something as we go through this, just to get this out of my head so I don't you know the filter that I listen to things through uh affects how I receive what you say. So my question is uh you say that about region levels about being clean. Is it is there uh I think you've pushed back on me on this thought before, but I want to let you do it again if I'm incorrect. Are are we looking to peak? If we're thinking in the terms of competition, we need to peak when we hit the state level, right? As opposed to peaking three weeks early and then that that didn't sound the right way, but if if we consider that if we're if our goal is advancing to state marching contest, if we're talking about box fives for marching right now, then if I'm not all the way to box five at region, I'm probably still on a trajectory towards getting to it. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, is that is that I will say that.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

In other words, I I'm not I've never understood the whole peaking system because I've never had a band that peaked. There's there's never a moment when I thought, you know, we peaked early. No, we peaked early. We're always trying to get better. So uh I I kind of understand that, but I really don't. I don't know, maybe I'm just stupid. But uh I don't I've heard that well, we don't want to peak by this moment because we still have two weeks to Larry. I said, what's this peaking thing you're talking about? Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

I guess, but let me say it this way, then if I'm not as artistic at the region level as I want to be by the state level, I'm just making sure I got that show on the field, it's clean, it's in tune, we're moving to the right places at the right time. Then we could put in some of the artistic elements. But uh see, I as I say it outlet, I hear you saying you teach dynamics from the beginning, or you're yeah, I was gonna push back on you on that screen.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yeah, so you still teach everything, it's just a matter of what level you get it to, and it's it's what level the performer absorbs it and expresses it.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Well, that lets me listen to the conversation better for through that lens.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Okay, awesome, awesome. And uh the first one is you know, uh box one stuff, the learn, learning the acquisition phase. This is very summer bandish, okay. Um, the task memorizing the notes on the page, the dots on the coordinate sheet, and the technical choreography. It's just the brass tacks of this is our show. Let's learn how to play this music with our instruments.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Present the material, present the drill.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Yeah, and it's get acclimated. And it's it's not a matter of like uh you're not gonna you're not gonna waste time on how can we expand this crescendo here to a certain level and do this and this and do this, and that's where the big choreography is gonna hit and all that. No, we're we're making sure we push down second valve. Got it. That's an e-natural on your euphonium. You better push down second valve.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

If it's first valve, right.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah, so that's what we're trying to figure out. The goal is to establish a foundation. At this stage, the performer is still reading the show rather than performing it, they're just reading the material and they're just trying to represent the material that's on the page. Music concept, I call it uh like when we sight read things, there's the first trashing and there's the second trashing. Okay, so and the first trashing uh usually happens when I I was lucky enough to have my in-house uh composer named Luke McMillan, because he's my assistant band director for a number of years, and he would write the show, and after the spring concert, we would do the first trashing. We would take the show and pass it out, and we would go through the first trashing, which is just like just read through it and and do it a number of times because your kids, it's amazing if you have a good foundation for them, um, that they'll fix a lot of mistakes on their own. You don't have to stop and go, that's second valve. They kind of look at you when they play like, oh crap. I they they know they screwed up. So don't waste time on things that you know will fix itself. Waste your waste your time. Isn't that great? Waste your time on things that they might not have noticed. Okay. But what you're trying to do is just get the muscles working to where they understand that this is our opener, this is what we're doing here, this is where where the front ensemble plays, this is how the transition works from here to here. We're just trying to get the uh the GPS coordinates figured out, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

We're not even that's a great way to put it. I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Yes, the GPS we're going from uh Abilene to Dallas to a music store and Frisco for the new the Tarpley Empire, and so I just plug in the that and I I just go. I'm not being expressive, I just follow the directions barking at me through the the speakers in my car. And guess what happens? Three hours later, talking a lot at Frisco, okay, and I'm at Tarpley Music. Um, so there's nothing expressive or artistic about that, it's just it's the GPS locations, okay? We're trying to figure that out. And some bands, that's a challenge. And it can be a challenge if your show's too hard. So be careful out there. Going back to the idea of uh never, yeah, it's easy to say never because it's not my band, but never make your show so hard that they can't get through that first level relatively quickly. I mean, like in a couple weeks where they can actually, you know, if my band can't play through the whole show by the end of the first week of summer band, we're gonna have a long, we're gonna have a long semester. It's uh because there's so much more to do than that. If your band's still fighting notes by week four, then you pick too hard a show. My first show for my very first marching band was four lines I took out of the beginner band book that were just old songs, and I wrote a harmony, a bass line, and a drum part, because I had a snare player and a bass drummer and a set of tritoms, if you can go back this far. And and I called the show Children's Songs. Okay, it's like go tell Aunt Roadie, you know, it's the most boring show in the world. Um, but it was super clean. I made a first division, but there was nothing artistic about it whatsoever. That's okay, because that show fit that band. Even my one of my old high school band directors, one of my judges, and he goes, Mike, that was the boringest show I've ever seen, but here's your one.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Great job. Yeah, great job.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

I said, Yeah, well, it's a work in progress, my friend. Well, next year we'll try to do something, you know, a little more uh you know, advanced. Um, right, but you know, pick your show if you have to do it simpler and simpler, and it's okay to water down the parts. It's okay, you know. No one, no judge is gonna say, I really wish that Woodwin feature would have had about a ton more notes in it at regional level. They're gonna they're gonna say that was played really well, or that was really not played well. That's what they're gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

One of the things you said to me uh early on in this deal that just blew my mind was don't be scared to rewrite the parts.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Yeah, yeah. Um just just tell them what you need them to do. Don't be afraid of giving a kid an easier part while another kid plays the harder part.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, I'll tell you just a rabbit hole thing here. But my senior year, I was in a trumpet trio that went to state solo and ensemble contest, and it was Bugler's holiday.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

I was the only one who could double tongue. So we cheated. We made a one. I played all three parts. It was supposed to be third, second, first, all of us, but and the other ones went pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Mike Lenny's going, digging, digging, digging, digging, digging, digging, digging, digging, digging, dig, digging, digging, digging, digging, dig it. Judge never noticed. You know, don't be afraid to rewrite parts. And if uh I was not an incredible trumpet, but I could double-tongue like a monster. So let's let's use that, you know. So let's do Bueller and Greg Miller, let's do Bueller's holiday. Why not? Mike Lenny can double tongue, he can't do much else, but he can double-tongue. So the other guys can carry the melodic section, and you're just gonna double-tongue like crazy right here. So don't be afraid to do that with your marching band. If you have two clarinets that can play really, really well in the Woodwind feature, simplify it for the other four clarinets or five clarinets or six clarinets or whatever. Have them play a much simpler part or have them not play that little tiny part until they play it off for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. You know, just to say, you know, that that's not where it needs to be at this point. So I'm gonna take you out of this four measures. But I tell you what, if you'll come in and work on it after school or you'll practice it up and play it off for me, you're right back in. I'm not saying you're out forever, but you you can't play this yet. You don't have the technique to play it, but we're not done yet. You know, so always give them a method to get back into the process. Okay. So that's that's box one. That's box one. Okay. So when we're judging like an area contest, if a band is only in box one, where all they have is the notes, nothing but the notes, so help us guide. If we have the drill, nothing but the drill, so help us God, you know, then if they're at that level, then they're not going to be in finals at area. But they it'll be a good band. Yeah. I mean, they made a one at region, they advanced to area, it's it's a good band. But we've got to somehow separate those 25, sometimes 45 bands, one through 45. And so the only way we can do it is to put them in these boxes. So if you have a thousand points to give that band, box one might be 188. That might be the point value we might give them as we break it down. Okay. So then we go to the next one, the retention phase. Once the information is learned, it must be solidified so it can be recalled without hesitation. Repetition until muscle memory takes over. Okay. And uh, we've all been in those situations, musicians, where all of a sudden you're playing something and you look at your fingers and you're going, I really don't know this part that well, but my fingers are doing the right thing and the notes are coming out of my horn. What is happening? That's muscle memory. Okay. And there's really nothing, no such thing as truly muscle memory. We just call it that. It's it's our brain that does it. You know, our muscles just react to what our brain tells them to do. But that's a great term to use, you know. Sure. It it feels right. But you do it enough times till your memory takes over. Okay. It's the ability to execute a drill move or a musical passage correctly 10 times out of 10. Or as my old horn instructor who used to tell me, said, you must play it correctly the number of times in a row that you are years old. So if you were 21 marching in the in the horn line, you must play that lick 21 times in a row without making a mistake. If you make a mistake, you have to start over at one again. Now it's kind of kind of difficult now that I'm 63. I mean, I think I don't use that rule anymore. It's it's too complicated to I can't even keep track of that's 59 times. I don't know. I don't that's I just I think my lip would be bleeding by that point. But it works for kids. It works for kids. Beginners, it really works because you can tell them that you know they're 11 years old. So do it 11 times in a row without a mistake, and you'll have it learned. Okay. Um, so remember that the muscles don't memorize anything, it's actually a mental approach. So you do it enough times until your brain can do that because your brain, and I'm sure there's scientific research, but it's just my experience as a band director. I really think the brain cannot actively think of two things at exactly the same time. It can't do it consciously, you can't think of drill and music at exactly the same time. Now we're smart people, so uh at least most people are. Most people are smarter than Mike Lenny. Um, but they can switch back and forth like a little toggle switch going drill, music, drill, drill, music, music, music, drill, drill, music, music. They can switch back and forth, but you can't think about one has to be memorized, right? One has to be almost subconscious. And I haven't unleashed this on you, but there's a great series of uh Making a Musician. There's a five-part podcast that I haven't unleashed on you yet. This is gonna be a blast. Allison Wilkerson uh does this. It's a great book. Um, it's amazing, but it talks about that, about the different parts of our brain and how they operate. Um that's gonna be a fun podcast, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

You know, I can relate to this though. I remember as a person who never took piano lessons growing up, trying to teach myself to you know, go through piano proficiency in school. If you ask me to play the right hand, I could do that pretty well. Oh, yeah. If you ask me to play the left hand, look at there. I can play that pretty well. Now put them together. Nope. Nope. You're a trumpet player.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

We're not smart enough to be piano players.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

But talking about the thinking of two things at once. I can one line of the staff at a time.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, that's that's why they're managed trumpets, man. Because uh we're kind of we're kind of handicapped in that manner. You know, we can't think of things complexity at all. Okay. But we just we play the loud note, the loud high note, me play loud note, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Proudly.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Proudly, proudly. We play the big notes, okay. Um, but you know, it's in a mental approach, the goal is confidence at this point with your band. Um, the performer no longer fears messing up because the material is ingrained in their brain. You must have a this is an important statement, you must have a culture where mistakes are not feared.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

That's cool. That's a good thing. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Oh my gosh. It's a the the killer of any band is when they're scared to death to make a mistake.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Right. Well, you and I've had this conversation too through all the contests that we've been to. There is a difference. I don't know that even if there's not a proficiency difference between the two groups, you can tell the confident band from the nervous band.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, you can tell it sometimes just by their posture.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

As they enter the field.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

As they enter the field when they're standing there and they're being announced by Derek. You know what I mean? Because I've judged contests where Derek's the announcer, you know, and did habs for them. But it's funny, you can kind of watch the band and go, this band's not going to be good.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Right. You know, you are. This band's gonna really have to step it up. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

It's like they're not confident. There's certain bands that enter the field on the basis of their body language says we're gonna show off. And other bands are like, we're not sure why we're here exactly. Man, I hope this happens. Yeah, I hope I hope we I hope lightning strikes in a good way, and all these notes work, you know, and it's it's human psychology, isn't it? Because when you get to area marching, and I've told this to directors so many times, but Arya and State Marching is all from the shoulders up. It's all brain. Oh, wow, that's great saying it's all brain power because they they know the show, and I see so many directors just pounding the drill and music into their kids in between prelims and finals. What a frickin' waste of time.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

They're not gonna know it any better than they know it right now.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

That is as good as it's gonna get, you know, as far as the logistics of it. What's holding them back is psychologically.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

It's their brain that's holding them back, it's not their muscle memory, it's not their power of execution, it's their brain going, the director doesn't think we're good enough to do this. So he's pounding out this little brass feature forever. Now we're gonna be exhausted by the time we get to finals and we're gonna come in last.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Or it's even little things like I've never warmed up in a parking lot with 8,000 people around me before, or oh my gosh, in Texas, the Alamo Dome is so huge, and it's gonna sound different in here. And what am I doing?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Yeah, and uh another rabbit hole to chase down or whatever. Um, but uh yeah, and we'll go into more boxes. But we used to uh our practice field was the stadium field for a long time. And we finally got you mentioned parking lots with all the people around you. We would play, uh, we would record from the previous year the parking lot. Now go with us with this. This is really bizarre. But then we would blast it through the stadium speakers while we warmed up at 6 45 in the morning. Oh wow, so that way they were complete. I got that from LSU because in their LSU does that and they call it Death Valley, but they in Alabama where they would play uh crowd noise through their stadium speakers at uh practice.

unknown 21:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

So we would do that as we warmed up. So they would hear like six bands around them warming up at triple forte, you know, while we're sitting there going, okay, percussion, eight on a hand, okay, brass, let's do our Remington. You know, so we'd warm up with that going on in order to jar their minds so that the day of area marching, it was not a problem. Right. They got they were used to warming up that way. It was like, oh, this is how we do it, you know. So Just something to think about. That has nothing to do with this podcast whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

You know, it's funny as a performer, I can remember on more than one occasion going, Oh, that's why we did that. It was the aha moments.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

And then we go to box two.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, we're through the box two. So now our band can play their notes. They can it's ingrained where it's more of a habit kind of thing. And now it's and all this actually happens at once, but it doesn't come to fruition until you get to a certain level of understanding. And I hope that makes sense to everybody. It's not like we teach box one and then we teach box two and then we teach box three. That's not how we do it. But it all of a sudden it happens if you keep teaching everything to the kids. Number three is understanding the contextual phase. This is where the performer begins to see why behind the what. Why does this drill move happen right here? Oh, there's a really cool drill move because the guard does like this amazing equipment equipment move, and we're accentuating what they're doing, or we have this huge crescendo as this thing rotates in the brass and woodwinds in percussion. That's why that really cool drill move happens. Or maybe the music happens because of the real cool drill move. They start to think about the concept of the show.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Um see there, I was just ahead of you. There's the aha moments, it's contextual.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, if you'd read your notes, you wouldn't get ahead of me. Or maybe I was leading you. How about that? That's what it was. That's what it was. It's sure. Okay. It shifts from individual execution to ensemble awareness. So with the end of before this in box one and two, we're just worried about ourselves. It's every man and woman for themselves. It really is. It's like trumpet 13 could care less if trombone four passes out on the field because that has nothing to do with their trumpet 13 drill. You know, so they could care less. It's like, oh, some kid passed out back there. I don't care. I'm trying to learn, I'm trying to learn my music and drill. Um, but in box three, that's when we become aware of the fact that, oh, the low brass feature. That's why the low brass players are in front of us because they've got a low brass feature. Now you're starting to actually, for what you can, you care about the other members of the band. You know, you you care about what they're doing, whether they're color guard, uh percussion, front ensemble, whatever. Okay. This is where most programs are stuck the month before contest happens, UIL contest, not the pre-UILs. But if it's like, yeah, that's where most bands get stuck, and then they never progress past the contextual phase. And so it's our job as directors, and I'll give you some hints as we go along, ways to push you out of box three into box four and five. And part of it is within your control as a director, part of it's not within your control.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Part of the scary part, but part of it's the level of the kid. Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

You know, the level of the kids that are in front of you. And I was real fortunate that I had a really good feeder program and great middle school situation and great band directors that worked around me. I just made sure to get buses and meals and they they made sure the band was ready. And so then I could I could get up there and prophesize and you know go to box five and whatever, and you know, but it was not me. It was the system that was in place. Okay. So sometimes it takes years to get to this level. So if you're a young director, don't feel like you failed just because you didn't get to the holy grail known as box five, the mastery phase. Okay. Um, it might not happen. It might not happen for five years, it might not happen for six years, it might not happen for 10 years. Um, it but it will happen.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Will happen. Okay. And then number four, the box four is communicate, the performance phase. This is now we've gone from individuals in box one to ensemble and so forth to box two and three, to now we're audience centered. Think about that. It's all of a sudden their eyes brighten up and they go, Oh, we're doing this for the audience.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Right. We're taking them on a journey, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah, we're taking them on a journey. And that audience also includes our judging panel. We want to tell the judges, and we want to tell the audience what we're doing by what we're doing. At this level, the focus shifts from performer to audience. It is no longer about doing the work, it's about projecting the work. This is an even bigger shift in box than the previous shifts from two to three. And yes, bands get stuck in this box as well. Think area finals band versus top three bands in area. That's the difference. Okay, because box four stuck bands will be area finalist. This is very generalized comments here. Sorry. Um, but you know, box three bands will make the box two bands will make their first divisions and they'll box one bands. Let me back up. Box one and two bands will make their first divisions and they'll be 25th, 26th in area. Nothing wrong with that. It's great bands, they're on a journey. Okay. Um, the ones that make their way up into box three or four are the ones that are like area finalist. You know what I mean? And so all of a sudden we get to box five, and now we're talking about medalists going to state, box four and five. So I know it sounds kind of convoluted because there's no direct line that says now you are a box five. Now you are a box four. This is a very generalistic approach to what's happening. So, but but as a judge, you can see it. You can see it, and you can know that if you have a band that's a box four band, okay, they're an area, they might be in area finals, but you're thinking, this probably isn't one of the top three bands in this contest by the time prelims are over. You're going, no, that's a that band's in box four. That's why they they received about 600 to 800 points in scoring. Right. From you as a judge, because your box five bands will be the 800 to 1,000. Okay. And in BOA competition, it is in those boxes. They score within those boxes. And but we kind of manipulated in UIL to adopt some of their, and it's it's listed in UIL, but they don't call it boxes. They just they call it, you know, I forget what the term for it is, but we just give our scores according to where that band has gone to. Okay. Here's the task. We're using body language, we're using facial expression, we're using musical phrasing to tell the story. Okay. In fact, with facial expression, I know I've had a lot of people, uh, those old, old heads, you know, those old guys and gals that go, why don't we use hats? Why are there not hats on their heads? We're supposed to have hats on, and we're supposed to have hats and trousers. You know what I mean? It's like there's a reason those bands don't have hats on their heads anymore for a lot of those bands. There's nothing wrong with having hats. Hebron High School wears hats and uh they're pretty dang incredible, right? Okay, but you can express with facial expression a whole lot better when you can see their face.

unknown 29:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

So if you've got a band that's very expressive, I say rip those hats off their heads and let them express. If your band is very boring and bland, stick a shaco on that head and put a plume on it and pull that brim down where there's two fingers from their nose to the bottom of that brim. Because we don't want to see their little faces. We just want their face covered up with hat, brim, and with their instrument. And then we just want them to play. Go to your strength. Go to your strength. They might not be ready to be expressive that way. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Um, if you don't have a pretty smile, don't smile.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah, if you're in a beauty contest and have no teeth, don't smile. Use the other assets God gave you to win this beauty contest.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Sorry, it just hit me. It's Mike Lennyism. This is stuck in my head.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I use that a lot. Okay, here's there's the truth to that. Okay, this requires a this is hard too. This requires a very high level of physical and emotional energy. It is hard because this high level of energy to produce results has to happen every day, even in rehearsal. And I tell you, a lot of bands do it well. One band that pops out, two bands actually pop out that do this really well is Fredericksburg and Pecus here in Texas. And I'll I'll say this about Fredericksburg. They do it really well. They do not run drill, they do not run sections of music, they perform drill and they perform sections of music on a Monday night at 7:30 in September. Everything that band does is a performance. And there's no mystique on why they're a finalist in 4A State Marching, because they perform at box four level by the middle of September.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Okay, but let's let's stop there because how do they get through box one through three so fast? Is it just a continuation of what they've been doing? It's is it their culture? Is it their system? Is it how do they get to box four so fast?

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yes, to all of that. Okay. It it has to do with the level of their middle school program, is exceptional. Um, their directors who teach the beginners, which includes the high school directors, are very exceptional in what they do. Um, and so there's a musical foundation for it. And then as they progress into the high school band, there's a cultural uh venting to it where it's uh the kids all know they're part of something really special down there. Um they know it's it's a great band program, and it's and I tell you this, it's not always been a great band program. They've had their lulls. Okay, and so you can't just say, well, it's a band town, so all their kids, their bands are always great. That's not true. They've had some pretty bad bands over the years, they've had some incredible bands, but it hasn't been like, you know, a cakewalk, you know. So to answer your question, yeah, and then the cultural thing has to be there, and then they have to somehow motivate those kids to be expressive every single time. And if they and we've talked about this in other episodes, but you know, if they if they run part of their drill and they're performing and it's kind of flat in energy, then you make them do it again and you tell them. You said, um, we're not here to watch you run through drill, you need to perform this right here. And you think that you ask questions like uh um, what do you need to do as an individual to perform at a higher level? And you make them answer. And they say, We need to do this, we need more musical dynamic contrast, we need better uh choreography, we need to be more uh physically with stronger core body strength in order to do our choreography to make it look the same across the entire band because we're all individuals, but we have to look like a machine when we're because a machine that does things together looks artistic and performance level.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

I think the battle becomes complacency and entitlement. These things don't just magically happen. We got here by doing these fundamentals and doing this and doing this. So let's go back and do those things.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yeah, and again, the to beat a dead horse, your show has to be within the grasp of your band well enough that you can go back and do fundamentals.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Every rehearsal I've been at at Pecus and Fredericksburg, and I could name 10 other bands, so those just came to mind. So I'm not trying to say those are the only bands, but they spend a three-hour rehearsal, the first hour is fundamentals. The brass players will be working for 40 minutes on lip slurs. Okay. Obviously, their shows within their grasp, otherwise, they'd be fighting notes for three and fighting drill. So you've got to, as a director, make sure the music fits your band. Even if you have to water it down and change the parts, that's okay. If you have to take out five minutes a year or whatever, um, there was one year with my band we didn't even do the closer. We were doing a journey show on an off-state year. I call it an off-state year because it used to be state was every other year. Right, right. But they just didn't work hard enough. I didn't teach well enough. Something didn't happen because we weren't ready. So we just left off the entire closer. We chopped off the final two and a half minutes off our show, did a reprise of the the last part of the uh part one, and our show was five minutes and 15 seconds, and we made a first division. Didn't phase me in the least. I said, Hey, we let's we're not gonna go out there and embarrass ourselves. We don't have time to learn this. We don't even know the title to part three. So it's okay to change what you're doing. Okay, change. And then, oh my gosh, it's engagement. That's the goal, reaching the judges and the back of the stands to ensure the show's message is received. And we all know that when it happens.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

It's so why'd you put it that way? Why'd you say the back of the stands?

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Well, because they have to perform to the entire audience, okay? And uh, and I'll give you an example, and we've had this conversation, Derek, and I'm I'm not gonna point out any bands, but you know, they'll do a show on uh uh I don't know, we'll we'll say uh a scary show of like nightmares. So they'll have some girl that runs around the band the whole show in some kind of robe. I didn't know where you're going, but yeah, I got it, screaming, and and they're not performing for anybody, it's absolutely stupid because you're sitting there watching that going, This is ridiculous. They're performing for themselves, and we don't even understand what the hell is this show even about? You know, why is this girl running around screaming and scaring baritone players and they're acting like they're afraid? And you know, it's like this is the biggest bunch of BS I've seen in my life. It's like some idiot put this together. Um, so you know, not to say, if you did that show, I'm sorry about that. Um but you could do the same show and you could make it very artistic, right? But they didn't. Okay. So that's what I mean by perform to the back of the stands. You got everybody there, yeah. Not just the judges, but uh grandma Susie in the corner of the stadium needs to be able to go, I understand this show. And at this level is where um somewhere in the show, someone gets goosebumps. You know what I mean? Popcorn moments, popcorn moments. Yeah, they go, Ooh, that was good. It was like I got to tell them my friend Luke McMillan, we were playing that jazz band gig yesterday, and he was playing bass right next to me, and there was this hit, I forget what the tune was, and the trumpet players played it, and you know, he's not a very emotive person, if you know Luke McMillan. He he's he's a very passionate person, but not very emotive. Does that make sense? Is that fair? You know, and he's playing his bass, and he looks at the trumps and goes, Oh man, that was good. You know, because it was just uh it was just a punch, man. All the trumps just hit right on the right moment. That was a popcorn moment in a marching band. That was where the judges, that's where your audience you get goosebumps. You know, you're like, oh, that was good. Nice, nice. Okay. So we get past that point, and then you start talking about bands who are in state finals and state medalists in finals, the mastery phase. This is the holy grail. Okay, and it can be achieved because we all see bands that do it. In fact, if you watch the 5A6A contest, all 12 finalists are box five bands, and there's probably some quite a few box five bands that didn't make finals.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah, that's just how dadgum good those bands are. This is the pinnacle of this box five philosophy. There is no longer a distinction between performer and performance. You can feel this level as a spectator. Instead of why is that girl dressed as Red Riding, Red Riding Hood running around the field all show? You've gone past that point to going, I feel what they're telling me. Yeah, it's not a conceptual frontal cortex moment, it's a medulla oblingata brainstem moment. Think about that for a second, where you go, holy crap, that was good. Oh my god, I felt that. My soul felt that. You know, it's it's things like that that I say as a judge. My the you went past my intellectual ability, and my soul felt what you just did on this field. Thank you for coming and playing for me today. I like to say it that way. To pretend, I like to pretend like the band's playing just for me.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

That's one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Yeah, it's like, thank you for playing for me today, you know, kind of thing. The task, total immersion. The performer, every kid on the field isn't playing a character or marching a show, they're the embodiment of the music and the movement. They are the show. That is cool, isn't it? That gives me goosebumps just thinking about it because it makes my brain go back to all those bands I've seen that that are box five bands. The goal is transcendent performance. This is where the magic happens. When an ensemble achieves a level of intensity and unity that feels effortless and inevitable. Think about that for a second. They make it look so easy.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

And you just you just watch them and go, that's the toughest thing I've seen. I mean, that show is so dadgung difficult. They're doing Rocky Point holiday and they're just screaming out parts and followed by this lush, beautiful Cuban melody, and you're going, Oh my god, that band is good. And they make it look so easy. It's like watching Doc Severinson play trumpet. He just he just makes it like anybody can do this, just put the horn to your face. Okay. But uh, but you know that that's kind of the five boxes. Now, here comes the questions. How do you get your very young or inexperienced performers to catch up? How do you get the vast majority of your students to move to the next box? Sectionals, peer leadership, building a band culture, just hard ass work. I mean, just it's a slog, man. You know, it's a slog. The the you know, we shall continue this slog until the until we move to the next box. And it's it's a matter, and it's it's in everyone's best interest. It's not a punishment phase. It's like we just gotta keep doing this. We do, you know. Um, what is a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step, but it helps if that step's in the right direction.

unknown 41:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

So every step has to be in the right direction. When do you know what box a student is struggling in? You know, it makes it easier for them to understand what to do and how you can teach them. It's okay to tell your kids about these boxes, what I'm trying to say. It's okay to say we are in box one right now and have it put it on the front of the band hall, have box one criteria, box two, three, four, and five criteria, and say this is our goal. We don't know if we're gonna make it or not, but that that's our goal. You know, our goal also is to get the state marching, but we don't know if we're gonna make it. We don't even really know if we're gonna make a one, do we? We don't we don't have control over that, but we do have control over the criteria on these pieces of paper, these big giant poster boards. So let's let's work at this. And it is a slog, you know. It's okay to teach them that. Um, don't ask kids to project or emote the feeling to the audience when they don't even know the key signature.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Seems obvious, but I'll go with it. No, I get your point. That's what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

I've seen it. Yeah, kids, we need to perform. I've I've sat there with another director working with their band, and they're going, we need to really project all the way to the back of the stadium, and we need to make sure to connect with the audience. It's like it'd help if we played in the right key as well.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

We're in box one screaming, not screaming at them, but trying to tell them to be a box five band when they don't even know their notes yet. You know, back it on up, baby. Put that truck in reverse because we got to get back to box one and we've got to figure out the notes, and we got to figure out our drill, and then we can go to box two and box three. It happens in order for a reason. It happens like building with Legos, it happens in an order for a reason. And also think of it with your kids like a bell-shaped curve, like how we do testing, you know. Um the scoring system and what we do in marching band is that way, but as each kid progresses through the boxes, not every kid's gonna progress at the same time, correct?

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Yeah, makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Your all-state clarinet player might be at box five level by September 4th. Your 15th chair trombone, if you're lucky enough to have 15 trombones, might not ever make it past box one. And that's actually okay. That they're doing all they can, okay? It's all right. You you just got to make sure that the band progresses to the next box. You don't have to rely on every kid getting there. Um, some ways to make this happen. Use video of accomplished groups to convey your message. It doesn't have to take up rehearsal time anymore. We have these things called Google Drive. Okay. And kids love watching videos. Just load up videos that are free on YouTube and and show them a box one band. There's bands post all their performances. You can find a box one band pretty easily. You can find a box two band at a performance, a box three band, and label them and put Them there and then have the kids as a six weeks test say, uh, what are the differences between these bands? Make them think. Um, right. Use guests to come in and model what needs to happen. I'm not talking about clinicians necessarily like me that are just I'm more the plumber that fixes the leak in the sink. You know what I mean? That's my job as a clinician. Uh Celeste Souza is an amazing choreographer. You know, he would come in and work with my band. He's just stunningly good at what he does, and that's what he does for a living. Uh, bring in guys like that to it, because he took my band and it was like he just showed them how to do a few different body moves and they did it. I was like, oh my gosh, I was really thinking this wasn't gonna work. You know, I said, uh, you know, and if you can't afford to bring them in, it's okay to trade skills. You know, if you're if you're a good trumpet player, say, man, I can you come work body moving my band? I'll come do four trumpet sectionals for you. It's okay to trade skills, okay? Barter system is great. As directors, use this concept for daily teaching, but maybe more important, use it to plan out your season lesson plan for your group. When do you expect to be at box two? You don't have to tell the band that necessarily. It'd be if you're lucky enough to have a staff, maybe tell them. Maybe not. Okay. But you've got to know when do you plan on being at box three? And what do we need to do to get there? Be mindful of the same concept because it can be applied to concert band, can't it?

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Isn't that interesting? Because we've talked to marching band the whole time, but this is just basic. It's kind of like our debate between Mr. Cox and Mr. Hekamovich. You know, there's there's things that can be applied to a band program that competition might not be the issue.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

You know, marching is not the issue here. The issue is performance, performance, whether it's a jazz band or a concert band. Um I mean, because all music is meant to be a total performance. If I play a trumpet trio, that's meant to be a total performance. And uh, you know, I definitely wish the best of luck to all my compadres out there for this season. Um, hoping that you do reach your goals. Um before I'm gonna ask you this though.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

It's it's been chewing at the back of my head. Realistic, okay, realistic assessment. Before we can make this year's group box five, this is actually a question, not a statement. Do I have to assess what box we made it to last marching season and see if I can figure out where we stumbled or where we fell short? And listen, if we only make if if our group was only able to get to box three because that's where they are in their journey, I get that answer. But is this an annual thing? Is this like, okay, well, we only made it that far this but you know, preseason everybody's undefeated. Right. In in sports. That's everybody's so far, everybody's in first place. It's what happens during the season that defines where you end up, right? But it almost seems like it's as important for the educator to stop and go, what did I do that held us back last year from getting from one box to the next? Was it my teaching? Was it my uh poor time management? Was it my whatever it might have been, or is it just where the kids are right now? And I this sounds like defeat is I know in my head we're not a box five band yet. But it doesn't mean I don't try to accomplish that. Is that what you're walk with me there?

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Well, a couple things in there. One is um base what you're doing on self-reflection, on not necessarily all the time with results. And I say that because one of the biggest problems the band directors run into is trying to compare this year's band to last year's band. Uh there's bands I know they'll say, well, we played a grade two show last year. So this year I think we can play a grade three show because we were successful last year. And I go, that's the stupidest statement I've ever heard in my life. You know, this is not last year's band. If it was exactly last year's band, that's a that's an intelligence statement. So grain of salt here. Um, you know, it's it's okay to do self-reflection and say, what could I have done better and did to get better results out of the band? But don't do it as a well, we got to box three last year, so this year we need to get to box four. No, you might go from box four to box two. They might have put four more electives in your schedule and all of a sudden you lose all your seniors. So don't make that mistake. But I like your idea though. There has to be a certain amount of self-reflection of what things did I do last year that worked, and what can I change in my lesson plans to make it better?

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Right. But I guess what I'm saying is if historically you're honest enough to say to yourself, I never really get past box three, my group, what can I do to make that jump to box four? And I know you just went through that. I know we just discussed going from uh contextual to performance. I get it. But do we have to be honest enough with ourselves to say I need to focus more on the performance aspect of what we're doing? Maybe I just haven't paid attention to that before.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Maybe so. Or maybe that's as far as that program can go for the next four years is box three. You know, sometimes there's a little bit of uh uh this is as good as we're gonna be able to do this. We can do maybe we can do one more thing. Um, sometimes there's limits. There's limits. Sometimes the school forces limits on you.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Sometimes I'm not trying to build excuses in for anybody either. Sometimes that school district, that's as much as they're gonna support you. Yeah, box three is what you got.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, some some schools all they want is school song, fight song, and national anthem, and that's it. You know, other schools that it's it's if you don't make state finals, then then we gotta have a discussion. You know what I mean? So it's it's it's hard. So it's hard to answer your question, I guess is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

No, no, but you did answer my question by telling me it's hard to answer that question.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Yeah, sorry about that.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

No, no, but I yeah, and I appreciate that because I'm the same as you, man. As as a as an as a guy who has spent most of his life as a music ed rep for a music retail store, I want all those guys to do and gals to be fantastically successful. I'm invested in their box five. Yeah. Um, so well, I'll tell you this too, Derek.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

This is I found this really interesting. I have a really good friend that decided to take all of his critiques and write them down from the audio files from State Marching. Then he inserted those as prompts into AI on Chat GPT and asked for a full semester lesson plan for his band next year. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Was it pretty good?

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Oh, it was perfect. It was absolutely perfect to the point of, or even some things it said, realize that this next section is not talent-oriented, it's only work ethic oriented. Well, this is purely talent-oriented for this. Your band must do this, this, and this. In week three, this is what I would suggest you do. And it just pulled from the entire data source of the world and put together lessons. I'm not that he's gonna follow those directly, but I tell you what, with AI, with all the you know, musicians or the big stink of oh, the AI is gonna kill all of us. Um, I tell you what, it gave him some really good ideas. So I would highly suggest to do that if you have everyone has access to that now. It's sure, you know, just but you've got to give it the right prompts because garbage in is garbage out, you know, but you gotta give the right prompts. These are the things that the judges said at Region Marching that my band didn't do well and I ended up making a three. Uh, what can I do to improve on these fundamentals in order to to have a first division and marching band and Texas UIL competition? And it will give you a full semester lesson plan week by week.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

That's pretty cool. Use that to your advantage, you know, and then then take what you want out of it, you know. I wouldn't well.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

I'll join you here in saying I'm best of luck in this upcoming and really this season started now, if we're being honest.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

I mean, we're we're already in the fall season now.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Yeah. There's bands right now that are developing their show for the year next for the 2027 show on how they're gonna be box five and how we're gonna the color palette and the choreography and the drill. And so, I mean, we're in a weird world right now, you know, or it's not the old days. Let's play a Susa March and make sure the drummer doesn't drag, you know. It's a different world, it's a different world. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Well, I know that you're you and I both, if we can help any of our friends out there, let us know. We'll do anything we can. Uh, and we do wish you best success. So ask Mike's here to help.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

That was an ending.