Recycling starts with design with Pia Baker

In this episode of Delivered, you can learn why recycling starts with package design and how this can benefit your brand, your consumers, and the planet.

We sat down with Pia Baker, Director of Marketing at Association of Plastic Recyclers (APR), an international non-profit focused on improving recycling. With 20+ years of brand experience, she previously led sustainability marketing at Nestlé Waters North America and held marketing leadership roles at Timex, Unilever, and Charles Schwab.

Key learnings:

• Understand how plastics recycling works and why it’s important
• Learn the common misconceptions about recycling 
• Discover why recycling starts with package design
• Stay ahead of upcoming regulations
• Find out ways to reduce your organization’s environmental impact

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Transcript

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Hello, Pia, welcome to Delivered.

Thank you. So excited to be here. 

It's great to have you. I tried my very best to encapsulate everything that you've done, but it felt like it was such a small amount of time to really talk about such a big topic, but also a big career in supporting this topic and supporting brands. So I think maybe we just start with, we'll just start with you, shall we? Let's talk about you, your career, how that's evolved over the last few years in this particular topic, and what I think is a super important industry and a very critical part of businesses these days that should be very conscious of. So yeah, let's start with you and we'll go from there.

Sure. Happy to. Yeah, I mean, really my background is in marketing and communication, so we can start there. I mean, out of college I actually thought I wanted to save the world and do community organizing, but that did not happen. So I took kind of a traditional job and within there quickly figured out what I loved was marketing. I went and got my MBA and ended up at Unilever. And I think what I loved about marketing, what really drew me to it was really understanding consumer insights and trying to really figure out what people were thinking, what they needed, even if they couldn't articulate it themselves. So I loved knowing, trying to figure out what people wanted and how brands could deliver on it. I took a few other roles after that. I worked at Timex for a while, had a fun time working in the sports and outdoor industry with the Timex Iron brand, iron Man brand, working with athletes.

And then in 2015 I moved to Nestle and it was at Nestle where my career really took a new turn, which is where I've been ever since. And that's because my very first role was really focused on sustainability and telling a sustainability story through a brand lens. And I suddenly realized how much more meaningful personally that was to me. But what also was really was inspiring was instead of just thinking about what a consumer really wanted, what a brand could deliver, it was bringing in a third need, which is what does the world need? And I certainly kind of honed over the years of leading sustainability marketing at Nestle. If you can find that sweet spot in the middle, it really is Powerful. Brands have huge platforms, a huge opportunity to have an impact. Consumers more and more are looking for that. And so for me, that was really the sweet spot of marketing.
And when I was at Nestle, I also got very involved in our packaging roadmap and trying to figure out how to make our packaging more sustainable. Worked a lot in recycling, and that has led me to APR. So APR is a nonprofit based in North America with a very simple mission to recycle more plastic, to reduce waste. It is an amazing organization, small but filled with engineers and scientists who are committed to improving recycling. And so what I can bring to the organization and what I try to do every day is really ensure that the programs, these amazing resources, informational resources, programs, tools that APR has developed to get the word out so as many organizations as possible can utilize them, understand them, benefit them really to impact the world, which is to help recycle more

Plastics. I love that and I love the facts and the honesty about having a job that could actually help save the world, or at least in some way impact it. I think everyone, I mean, I could speak for myself, I'm sure everyone resonates with this. Everyone would love a job that has that kind of nuance to it and that meaning. And I think when you put it that way, I also love the part you just mentioned about brands, how I guess sometimes brands can be demonized for various things, but actually they are also a platform for good if they're utilizing the right policies and the right way to think and deliver things. So I love that philosophy as well. And I suppose just to kind of get into it, I mean the biggest question in my mind really is how big is an environmental problem, plastic waste? Because I know it's something we can't escape. It's something that is what it is, it's baked into our society right now. So how big of a problem is that for us and what can we do about that?

Yeah, plastic waste is a huge problem. Waste for sure. I mean, I would even go higher and say waste is a huge problem. I think we are a society of consumption. We have gotten really used to eating on the go, ordering things online whenever we want it. And you just think about all that extra packaging that we didn't used to have that we have, it benefits our life, it makes us more efficient, it makes things go faster. It's easier. So all of that is progress, but the consumption has just really ramped up. And at the same time, most of, I mean I can speak, I'm based out of the us but I think a lot of us in the US and probably in Europe too, we don't see our waste. It's not something that we're used to thinking about. We kind of put it away and move on.

And that invisibility makes it kind of an issue. So waste is a huge problem. It's creating, it's contributing quite a bit to climate change and greenhouse gas emissions. It's contributing to environmental problems, et cetera. Plastic waste is interesting because plastic serves an important role in society. I mean, again, we get very used to it. It's lightweight, it's inexpensive, it makes things affordable. It is really critical for protecting things and ensuring quality. One of the challenges with plastic is the end of life. So again, if we're not used to thinking about where things go, we're using a lot and plastic sits around for a long time and does not decompose, we need to figure out what to do with plastic at the end of its life. So yes, I would say plastic waste is a challenge. Recycling is a really important tool to address plastic waste.

And I know we're going to talk a lot about it, but I also want to say upfront, it's not the only tool and it should never be considered the only tool for plastic pollution as a society of consumption. I think all of us need to think about, and companies really need to think about reduction. So anybody working in an organization that's manufacturing items needs to really think about what do you need? And companies for the most part are for-profit businesses. And you do need to think about what do I need to protect a product? What do I need to attract people to see it on the shelf? But you also need to think about what do I really need from a packaging footprint, from an end of life, from a recyclability. So reduction is a key thing and we all have opportunities to do that in our life as well. And then reuse as well. So we've all gotten used to things like reusable mugs and reusable bottles, so we need to think about reuse. But once you reduce and you reuse, recycling is a really critical step to address waste.

And it's interesting. Now we're thinking about it, not to get too philosophical in this whole show, but plastic's like the byproduct of what our society is trying to do more and more, whether we want to do it or not. Everyone's trying to be more, I say more efficient, get things done faster, make sure things get delivered quicker, no pun intended. But obviously it's about how do we take responsibility for that? Because you're right, you don't see us uk, you don't see your waste, you don't see where it goes. You used to assume it goes somewhere nice and ethical. And I suppose why is this quite sticks with my mind a lot. I mean, a lot of the viewers of this show are part of a corporation, hopefully have decision-making powers in some cases. And I know for example, at Infinite we're really passionate about sustainability. We have a bunch of climate neutral policies. We have a lot of things we'd like to do to kind of encourage our staff to help the environment, but it has to come from a policy or a business or brand side first. So I think you're totally right. It has to be driven from commerce to have mass effect and to tackle such a widespread challenge. I think that's a big, big deal

And we can talk all about this, but I think when you think about any big societal issue, it's usually never solved with one thing. So I think citizens, consumers, like all of us need to be conscious of it and think about our own impact. Companies play a huge role like we say, because for the most part they have an even bigger impact than us and government plays a role as well. So I think regulations are going to play a big role in trying to tackle this waste situation that we have and the plastic waste crisis that we have, but it really does take everybody working together.

Yeah, true. I suppose just to touch on that point about we don't see where our recycling goes and where plastic goes and our rubbish, but I think we all assume, at least I do, I assume something, but I don't really know what's true and not true. Is there a myth maybe that you could maybe guess debunk from a plastic recycling standpoint that we could at least share with the audience, give them some certainty in all of this?

Yeah, absolutely. There's several myths, but I would say just to be simple, if I could dispel one myth on this podcast today, I think a lot of people have seen this headline, some variation of it, only 9% of plastics get recycled. And that's a horrifying headline to read, but it can be very misleading. I think when you read that, what most people think is, oh my god, so only 9% of what I'm putting in my bin is actually going to get recycled. And that's not at all what that statistic means. So real quickly what that means is they're looking at all plastic that's produced and think about everything. We're just talking about all the plastic that's in our life, your car bumper, your car dashboard, the medical equipment, when you go to the doctor's office, your coffee maker, your kids' toys. We have a lot of plastic in our life that is not stuff that we put in the bin.
So that statistic is looking at all that plastic that's produced and comparing it to what is recycled from commercial and residential recycling streams. So I want to clarify that because a lot of these headlines have picked up steam and have caused concern, doubt, skepticism, and sadly, that leads to less people participating in the recycling process. So for me, it's really important, and I get this question a lot when I'm at parties or hanging out with friends, to just let people know that the majority of the recyclable plastic that you put in your bin at home, and I should clarify, let me speak about the US right now, but I'm pretty sure this goes for Europe as well. The majority of the recyclable plastic that you put in the bin at home gets recycled. IT will get through the sorting process, be turned into new pellets and then reused in a product.

So that is the good news. Now there are some things, just little side notes, and again, what's interesting is recycling is local. So individual communities decide what is accepted. So it's important that what's accepted in your communities. But for an example in the us, very good rule of thumb is that plastic bottles, whether it's a soda bottle or a water bottle, highly recyclable. Put all of those in the bin, put the cap on, put 'em in the bin. Number two, plastic, which is stuff like milk jugs, laundry detergent, shampoo bottles, all of that, highly recyclable, put 'em in your bin, yogurt containers, highly recyclable, put 'em in the bin. So when you think about these rigid plastics, which is the majority of the plastic packaging that we have in our life, if you put them in the bin, they're going to get recycled. One component that people should know about, again, depends on where you live, but for the majority of the US flexible plastics, these are things like plastic grocery bags, Ziploc bags, the shrink wrap that goes around your toilet paper should not go in the bin.

There are separate programs for that. You can take it to drop off, but it gets all tangled up in the equipment. So it needs to be treated separately. But I guess what my fear is, is that with all these headlines, people stop recycling. They think it just doesn't make a difference and why bother? But that's not true at all. The last plan I'll make to drive it home is that the last numbers we have reported are from 2022. So in the US we recycled 5 billion pounds of plastic. In North America, it's a big number. What does that mean? Well, it's the equivalent of about 340 18 wheeler trucks filled with plastic, not going into the landfill every day because of recycling. So when people are at home and they're like, does recycling really work? Should I recycle? Just imagine 340 trucks lined up. That is the savings that we get because you're putting your recyclables in your bin at home, so please continue to do

So. Yeah, I love that. And I think it is such an easy thing to do as well. And I think if the collective intelligence of the world just didn't bother, then I think we'll be in a much worse state. And I think it's such a simple thing to action as a human right to do this, and especially at the company level, you'd like to think it would trickle down through the company to the employees staff, et cetera. And it's actually quite reassuring to hear things do get recycled as well. As a layman in this, I hear these things, I don't really know. I hope so. I hope for the best. But I suppose also, we're talking a lot about recycling here and all that. I mean from the people listening, what is it a definition of recyclability or recycling? How do companies design for that? I think a lot of designs, I guess from what we do at Infinum, we're always thinking about visual design, product design, maybe even workflow design, service design. But there is a design philosophy. I guess a company could be deploying in terms of better recyclability at that scale as well. There has to be some sort of design
For them to do that. So let's talk about what that definition really is and how that reflects on companies.

Totally, and it's a great question to ask because another thing that people don't really understand, hopefully if you're in a packaging engineering role or a sustainability role, you understand this and you're asking these questions too. But for something to be considered recyclable, it is a complicated process. At APR, we list four criteria. So you need to think about access, convenient access. Can people actually recycle it? Do they have curbside access? Do they have a drop off facility that's not too far from their home? If they don't, you can't really call it recyclable. So access is important. You need to make sure that the item you're recycling is accepted by a recycling facility. So that's really important. So it's in a category of items that actually will be accepted by the facility and not rejected. The third thing is, which is another little myth thing that I can bust here, is that there needs to be an end market for the recycled plastic once it gets turned into new plastic.

And I think this is another thing, I think we almost, because it's an invisible thing, this waste, we kind of think of it as a public service almost, but recycling is the business. There needs to be a buyer and there needs to be a seller, and it needs to be economically viable to work. So there needs to be an opportunity, a market sitting and waiting ready to buy that resin in order for something to be considered recyclable. And then designing for recyclability is the fourth thing. I would argue it's probably where it all starts. This is really important for companies to think about. Like I said, there's so many different things you do need to consider. If you're manufacturing a product, you need to make sure that people like the way it looks and it pops and that it works well. But you should be thinking about the packaging as well, and are you designing it so that it will make it through the recycling stream?

So it's complicated. If anybody has the chance to call their local recycler to actually do a tour, I highly recommend it. We have some videos about how recycling works that you can watch on our website too. But I mean to go into a materials recovery facility, which we call A MRF is fascinating. That's where you get all of this material. It usually comes in all in one big truck. You'll see cardboard glass and aluminum cans and plastic bottles and all sorts of things mixed together, and they all get dumped on a conveyor belt. And then from there, it's just this process pretty automated. There are some human intervention, but for the most part, fascinating, all this specialized equipment whose job it is, is to separate all that material into individual streams so that it can get reprocessed and sold off to a buyer. So because of that, there's all these pitfalls. So think about, for example, there's huge high powered magnets that are trying to look for metal. So if you have a plastic bottle with a metal cap that might get sucked up by a magnet and now you've lost the plastic, it'll get discarded. 

There are all sorts of things later in the process, less of sorting more and processing glues that stick labels to bottles or containers. If those glues aren't designed correctly, they might not be separated at all from the container. And then the processes that are set up won't work. So something that's supposed to float to the top to get skimmed off might sink to the bottom. So it's complicated. There's a lot of steps, but there are tools to help you with this. So again, for APR, we have the APR design guide, and it is a digital tool that people can go in and use to try to figure out any individual component of a packaging or the whole packaging overall. Will it make it through the recycling system?

Yeah, I think that's really important as well because most of these things come down to a very common denominator, which is education. And I think if we can provide the tooling and the guide, so we provide handbooks at Infinum, we talk a lot about what each component is that we sell to a client, whether it's from design, from engineering, from whatever. And you're right, in terms of the APR design guide, I guess this is equally the same thing just in a different context. It's actually helping educate companies what they should be looking for and how they should be treating these various ways of working, I guess, around this topic. And I suppose my career around this is then, okay, so there's a guide there. That's great. It's online, APR has got it. Ready to go. Who should be using it? And are there any success stories maybe attributed to this that you could maybe share just to add verb to the whole guide conversation?

Yeah, so it is a free digital tool. Honestly, it should be used by anybody who is making or using plastic packaging, which is quite a big audience. Obviously as a lay person it would be a little bit more difficult to understand. The guide itself is intended a little bit more for a packaging engineer, somebody a little bit more technical, but it's available on the website. And we actually recently refreshed it. We are this year our 30th anniversary of the design guide. It started about 30 years ago as I think it was like a few pieces of paper stapled together focused on PET plastic, a single type of plastic. Of course, every different type of plastic has different rules and guidelines for designing for recyclability. So it's really grown over the years through our members contributing technical knowledges through testing. And now it's this very robust digital tool that we relaunched, like I said, at the end of last year, working with Infinum, which has been huge honestly, over the years it's evolved.

It's kind of been like different things tacked on and on. And when we worked with fin, we basically said, how can we make this streamlined and easy to use? I heard over and over from people, the design guide is the ultimate source of truth. It is the definitive guide. There's nothing like it out there and it is so hard to use. It is very frustrating to use. So we really had the task of the content is amazing, but how can we make this easier to use? How can we help people find it quicker? And so what we used to have online is you would have to scan through all of this information looking for stuff. We had different versions depending if you liked it in tables or paragraphs, and sometimes those versions weren't always synced. It was complicated. So what we have now is a very simple tool.

You just use a dropdown to pick your material on the side. You've got all these very simple filters and a card will pop up giving you exactly the information you need. There's contextually relevant links in there, oh, for this type of material, do you need a test? Click here, we'll help you find the test. Are you looking for recognized items? Click here. We'll help you find recognized items. Do you want to share it from a transparency perspective? We added a change log so people can go in and see anytime the most recent time guidance has been updated. So a lot of huge changes, which has been great. We've gotten very positive feedback from our members. I will say one very large retailer used to send people to their own version because they found ours very difficult to use. And now we've heard from them that they're very happy with our new design guide and they're sending people back.
So it's much easier to use as far as the impact of using the design guide, it's had a huge impact I think because think about over the past 30 years actually changing any given item can have a multiplier effect. So if we can help people identify a problem with a piece of packaging and suppliers identify a solution that could be millions and millions of items over the years that are now recyclable because they're following this stream. And when I first joined and was trying to understand this, I think one item that stood out to me the most is black plastics. So because of one of the pieces of equipments on this conveyor line are these optical cameras that are looking for plastics and black plastics are not recognizable by this camera. And so often you had a black plastic bottle going down the line, it wouldn't get picked up and might not end up in the right stream, might end up discarded APR through the design guide was one of the first organizations to highlight this as an issue and develop a test so that brands could actually test their product to see if it was going to get picked up and sorted correctly or not.

Once we did that, it spurred innovation within the category and all these suppliers started trying to tackle the problem. What could you do for a black plastic bottle so that it was identified correctly. And many companies came up with new colorant that actually was identifiable by this optical sorter, an NIR identifiable black colorant. So from there companies were able to adopt it, they were able to keep their black bottle, but know that it was going to be sorted correctly. So you mentioned Unilever, my former employer. So the iconic Axe bottle, which is always black. If anyone has a teenage son like I do in their house, you probably know that body wash by the scent in the black bottle that has this special color. And so that Unilever can continue to have their brand color but know that those products are going to be picked up through the recycling system.

That's so interesting. Yeah, it's quite nostalgic. We have acts, what's known as Lynx I think in the uk, which just, and even though I'm a man now who basically just hit 40 and my parents still sometimes get me, I think as a joke, I'm not sure, but I'm still 14 or something. But it is that black bottle, isn't it? You

Got a strong sell which lasts all day.

That's it. Yeah. Maybe I'll gets 'em away at the end of the show. Anyway, the point is what I love about this, the design guide for sure is a solution to education to guide people into something to help them do a positive action from the education. But I think this is what I think I love by doing this show. I speak to all manner of industries, but most of it comes down to yes education, but just user experience as well, which can seem like quite an industry buzzword or design buzzword. But it is like that connection between people and product is so integral. And also combine that with the wrapper of education that then gives some real purposeful impact from these kind of products. Like you're saying about the design guide online, it's free and open. Sourcing that to people to have access to that I think is such a great commendable way to look at things and especially in this topic when it is literally trying to help save the world in some way. It's a beautiful thing. So I mean.

Suppose

I think the user experience is so critical too. I agree. And as a marketer, it's probably what I enjoyed the most out of the project getting inside the head and how are people going to use this? What problems are they going to face? What makes it easier? And the user experience for any new website or any digital tool is so critical.

Yeah, so true. And the artistry of making something easy for another human is the thing, isn't it? If it is easy, then they can action it. And like you're saying about recycling, it's a collective thing that we all should be doing anyway. So it's like if you makes that process easy and then notice how to do that easy. Great. I think that's great. I mean think beautifully. My question was going to be about the UX side of things, but you've already beautifully said how it's given that nice accessible way of using this design guide for everyone really. So I love that. And I was going to talk a bit about certification as well actually around this. I mean just from some of the research we was doing prior to the call, obviously as APR beyond the education standpoint, it's like it has a program that helps the companies that you work with to kind of get this third party certification. For the note I have here is a post-consumer recycled content, PCR,

An apple

Rolls off the tongue, but what is that about and what does that mean to be certified and what benefit would that bring brands to have that as an accolade to add to their brand's achievements?

Yeah. So let me start with the beautiful name of post-consumer recycle content certification, PCR certification. So what is PCR first of all, and then why do you need it certified? So PCR basically is most of what we focus on at APR post-consumer recycled content is essentially all the stuff that has served its useful life and then it needs to get recycled. So it's all that stuff that you're recycling in your own home. It's stuff that you're recycling on the go. It's also stuff that companies are recycling after they've used. So think about that pallet of ax body wash going to a target, it's wrapped in all that shrink wrap when you cut that off and put it to the side. Now post-consumer served its purpose. Now there is other type of recycled content, post-industrial recycled content. That's stuff like when you're on a manufacturing line saying you're making this big sheet of plastic, turning it into packaging and you're trimming the end so that it's a certain shape, all that little stuff that falls to the, you can grind that back up, melt it down, put it back into your next batch of packaging.

And the reason post-consumer is so important at APR, and I think it's important to the world is that post-industrial is pretty easy to use. It's clean, it really hasn't got dirty, it hasn't really left the factory. There's a market waiting for it. It's already kind of got its own infrastructure being used very simply. Post-consumer is what is going into the landfill today. It's what's going into the environment today and it's what we need a solution for. So all that's to say the reason we are very focused on PCR and frankly most governments are focused on PCR and us as consumers should be making sure anything we're buying with recycled content is PCR is because that's what's actually solving the problem. And it needs help recycling, like I said, it's working. It can work so much better. We need to collect more PC, we need more companies to put PCR into their packaging instead of new plastic. So because of all of that, APR has a PCR certification program. The intent is to create transparency so buyers and sellers can trust each other. They know what they're actually buying comes from post-consumer sources. It follows chain of custody along the way. It works off of ISO standards and guidelines so that everything is compliant, clear, clean. Who should use PCR certification? I would say any company that is buying PCR ask if you can get PCR certified, PCR Pellet or Flake or packaging

And anybody producing PCR, think about getting it certified for that transparency. And again, the whole point is to build a robust and stable market and to comply with a lot of regulations that are coming up because there is a growing number of laws being written into the books that companies need to actually use PCR and packaging in place of virgin.

Yeah, it's interesting too, I imagine even the generational demands that I guess consumers will start to expect now is a more of a standard are probably growing in this side of things. So if I was to start my Chris Co who does soft drinks or a competitive ax, my own body wash, of course, I would want to make sure that it appeals to a younger generation to have that profitability over time to know that they are vested in it. They understand my companies like ethically packaging things and I'm using recyclable packaging design essentially as part of that equation. Because I think like you were saying, we have B Corp certified organizations here in the uk, which is something fairly similar where they're following a lot of those rigorous processes to make sure the company's following the right kind of philosophy, I guess you could say both to attract the right kind of staff but also the right kind of customer as well. And also I think, so in some respects, I suppose my question really is around young consumers that are you assume driving this demand more as they become more part of the marketplace. Do you see that as a key part of why this is really important? Not just because it's ethically and sustainably better as well, but why companies should prioritize this sort of way of thinking? Because it gives not just them, obviously the nice kudos of having this as a brand, but also you assume over the long term better profitability and better customer retention.

And there's a lot to unpack in that question, but it's a really important one because I think if we all relied on companies doing this because it's kind of just the right thing to do, it's not going to work. Because like I said, if you're a for-profit company, your goal is to drive revenue and to demonstrate that to your board and your shareholders and all of that. So you can't do things just because it feels good. So it's got to make business sense. And certainly in my roles when I was at Nestle and Unilever, we did talk a lot about showing the business case for this and younger consumers play an important role in this. Let's see. I mean I've seen statistics like two thirds of consumers in the US I believe it is. I don't think it's global. I think it's in the US do expect companies to be responsible when it comes to recyclable packaging or the end of life of packaging.

They want to make sure that companies are thinking through this and building sustainable packaging. But we all know there's intention action gaps. So sometimes people say they want something recyclable or they want a sustainable product, but then when it comes time to buy it, they might not be following through on that. So the other thing that has been great that's been developed in the past, I don't know, six, seven years in the US is NYU Stern has a sustainable market share index where they're tracking across all sorts of different CPG categories. So these are things like beverages and diapers and shampoos, the kind of stuff that you're buying day to day weekly at your grocery store. So they've been tracking that for years now, and what they're able to compare is what is the growth rate of products that have been labeled and marketed as sustainable in some way, not just because of recycling though, this is to general sustainable.
So there's lots of different components in there versus conventional products that don't have any of that. And they have seen consistently higher growth from the products that are labeled as sustainable. So I think the latest report I saw was something like 50% higher growth rates for those categories. So what that tells me is that the scan data is demonstrating that sustainability is a business proposition as well. And if you go deeper in that, you do see younger consumers are a big part of that, not just younger consumers, but younger consumers, higher education levels, higher affluence and urban consumers are really what are driving that growth rate in sustainable products. So the business need of it, making sure you understand your consumers is really important. And I mean as a marketer and in the roles that I've held, I think just a general word of advice for any company listening is if you are taking actions that are delivering on sustainability, you also need to figure out how to communicate to your consumer. And certainly that does not mean you should have greenwashing because that is a terrible thing and should be avoided at all costs. On the flip side, you shouldn't be afraid to tell your story because if people don't know what you're doing, they can't vote with their dollars and buy you on the shelf because of that. So it is finding the right balance of how do you tell the story in a way that works for your brand that's meaningful to your consumer and that supports the actions that you're taking. 

All of that's really important, but what I would say is that two other things are really important for why companies should be thinking about specifically getting back to recyclable packaging and recycling is companies today are their own source of recycled plastic. So they will be their own biggest supplier of recycled content, which again is going to be legislated more and more. So if you are a company sitting around thinking, I have to start using 10% recycled content in my packaging or 20% or 5% or whatever it is in the coming years, where am I going to get that? Well, if you're not designing your package to be recycled, then you're not contributing to that supply of recycled plastic coming back. So very important for companies to think about that. And then lastly is just getting ready for regulations, it will be mandated.

Yeah, I was going to say, because you were saying the power that comes from making, I guess seismic change, yes, should be driven by corporations and brands. They have the reach. And I love that you're saying there about you don't have the greenwash to make yourself known for doing these sorts of things just for doing the right thing. I think that's quite a good, but you have to say something right to say to people like, we are doing the right thing here, but it's not the be all and end all the company. And in terms of then, so you've got the corporation side, the brand side, you would hope one day they all have that baked into their policies that they have to do something. But yeah, what is, I guess from a US standpoint, what is the regulations coming up from the government? I know this probably is a bit of a loaded question is all the changes of late, but in terms of what is the policy?

Interestingly in the US the majority of the recycling policy is at a state level. So certainly there is change at a state level, but actually maybe slightly less impact at the federal level with all the bigger changes that are going on here federally. But yeah, I'd say in the US the biggest change going on, we've seen a big push in EPR, which stands for extended producer responsibility. So this is the primary legislative action that's going on in the us. We have five states that have passed it, I should say the US is behind Europe. So if you're listening from Europe, you guys are further ahead of this. I don't know all the details, country by country, but in the US we have five states that have passed EPR. And essentially what that means is as a producer you are responsible for the packaging once it's done financially.
And so it's assessing a fee to companies and those fees will go into a big pool that will support recycling infrastructure access really help make the recycling system bigger, more effective, more efficient. So we need that right now. We still have access issues and infrastructure issues, education issues. It'll tackle some consumer behavior hopefully so people understand what they can and cannot recycle and motivate them to get it in the bin. So EPR is the most common thing. And the smart EPR policies also include incentives to use recycled content in your packaging, not just design it so that it's recyclable, but actually use recycled content in new packaging. And I'm saying those are the smart policies because again, like I said, recycling is a business. There needs to be buyers and sellers, and it depends on not only having a supply of plastic but demand for it as well.
So that's EPR. But then there's also minimum content mandate laws that are going into effect. So let's say beverage bottles might need to have 25% recycled content by a certain date. So a lot of these laws have been passed, many of them are in the process of figuring out how to implement and when to roll out and timetables, but they have started. And like I said, it is critical for companies to know about what's going on, to track it and to start preparing for it, preparing for your packaging, being made of recycled materials, being recyclable and packing the data for reporting purposes.

Yeah, I suppose a good policy from the state or above is always a good way to enforce at least some change at a mandatory level, which can be a great thing I suppose. And I guess also around plastic as a pollution source. I mean I suppose there's plenty of other types of issues connected to this, but I suppose from a company individual standpoint, I mean company we talked about quite a lot because I guess if the policies are coming into play and there's incentive to maybe even have a recyclable or better sustainable business that makes business sense, great. But from a I guess individual standpoint, what could individuals do to support this and try and again connect to all these different companies doing good things, but then at the individual level, for the listeners that aren't necessarily a CEO or a business or a change maker, what could they do?

Well, like I said, so model, if your listeners are not familiar with it, which I think is really important, it's called the zero waste hierarchy, and it kind of shows a funnel of like, we've got all this waste up here and here's all the steps going down in order that we should be thinking we should. I find that model to be really useful because it helps you prioritize certain things, but at the highest level you're usually talking about reduction. And so this applies to companies and applies to individuals quickly from a company perspective, do you need the amount of plastic in your product? I've seen some beautiful personal care products, even food packaging that have enormous shiny caps on them and things that really are attractive shelf but use a lot of plastic. So reduction is one thing from a consumer perspective, think about all these boxes you're getting.

If you buy a product and there's just so much packaging on it, you can think about giving feedback to that company, maybe post about it, send an email, call them and say, I don't want all this packaging. So definitely giving feedback. And then reduction in general, do you need to buy these things? Can you rent them? Rental is like a whole new industry that I think is really growing and is fascinating. I've even heard about these really cool community organizations that have lending projects. So all these things that we need maybe once a year or for a single event, do you need to buy it? Can you borrow it? Can you rent it? So these are just kind of personal steps you can think about
Reusing. I definitely use my reusable mug, my reusable bottle, my reusable bag. So think about all the things in your life where maybe a reusable model is better because that's just fewer single use items that you're using once and then hopefully recycling if it was designed correctly. And for me personally, clothing and it was a little off topic from plastic, but buying used clothes, that's a reuse, that's a huge thing. And we were talking about user experience. So one of my favorite places that I buy all my clothes now is a company called Thread Up. I think you have it in Europe too, but it is an e-commerce site that sells used clothes. But for me to go walk through a giant Goodwill or a thrift shop, like I will not do because I'm not someone who likes to shop, but I love the user experience. I can quickly look for brands. I like using the little filter tools, I can find the exact size, I can figure out the condition I want, click here, and then all the items are available for me to browse.

So they've created a user experience to allow me to buy used clothing that's in great quality, and so I'm not buying as much new stuff. So that's another thing that you can do to reduce consumption, reduce waste, I love that. Then one other tip that I would say, just having been in this industry for a while, when I was at Nestle, I used to host these little gatherings with my colleagues and we talked a lot about composting. So food waste is enormous all over the world, but in the US I think the number is something like 40% of all the food we produce goes to waste. So when we talk about having a waste problem that's enormous, and at the same time we have millions of people who can't even afford to buy enough food. So shouldn't there be a system in place to figure that out? I'm fascinated by food waste and tackling that. So that is something personally you can get involved in because I was guilty of this. I would shop once a week and I would kind of forget about something in the back of my fridge and it would go to waste. And

I third way think about all the hundreds of millions of households that are doing that.

So that's something you can do productively. Learn to use your freezer shop better, save those vegetable trimmings in a freezer bag, use it in stock. So just think about how you can reduce your food waste and if you are going to have to throw something away, compost it because it'll decompose in a backyard compost or if you have a drop off or a pickup for your city, if you throw food into the trash, it will not decompose in a landfill. It just doesn't have the oxygen so it won't do it. And then that is contributing to greenhouse gas emissions and climate change. So the waste is something all of us can do something about as well.

That's an insane stat. I'm just trying to get my head around that. But also I'm just like, oh man, there's so much that you can do. And it's so simple. Even the simplicity of just taking your cup to get coffee rather than keep buying and reusing. It's such a, I think when you like say back to education thing, isn't it just if you just think about it and you are conscious of it, it's actually quite easy. Just start implementing even some changes at the consumer individual level that I'm already like, man, I need to start getting on this immediately. Some habits.

Changing your habits is hard. It certainly is hard, but if you can try to get yourself in the habit, encourage your friends to get in the habit, you'd be amazed at how that builds up a change and the extra bonus makes you feel good doing something good and you are having an impact.

Love that. I mean, usually we would ask for information tidbits and takeaways, but I feel like you've just given us a vast amount to even think about, which I love. So thank you for that. We actually have quite a lot of different questions to go through. I've been trying to sift through some of that are relevant actually to what you've been saying. So we're going to flip the questions from the audience if we may, and I'll read some out and we'll see what we can do. But this first one really stuck out to me because quite connected to what you've been saying. So are there any brands that are leading the way on sustainable packaging and design and what could other brands learn from them?

I mean, there's so many brands and there's even companies behind the brands that are working on the smaller things behind the scenes that are having an impact. But I would say brands and companies that are trying to tackle categories that are maybe not as usual. So a hundred percent recycled bottles, a hundred percent recycled plastic bottles. That's great. And there are a lot of brands. When I worked at Nestle, we did a hundred percent recycled bottles of water. It's great. I think Hellman's mayonnaise does it. We have shampoo bottles, so all of that is great.
But I think film, trying to figure out how to use recycled film and making sure film is recycled at the end is a really interesting one. So I think I actually just saw an article maybe about Sainsbury or I think it was a European grocery store that went away from the plastic tray with shrink wrap and started just using a film covering around the meat. So they were trying to get rid of that tray and they got a lot of blow back from consumers who were like, I don't want my meat shrink wrapped in this. But they kind of stood their ground and they're like, these are the reasons from a sustainable packaging perspective, we're moving this way.

And they experienced no sales loss because of it. So I think it's some of those things like that that are really interesting. Obviously there are, I mean there's all sorts of brands. I have tried out Grove products at home and they sell you a reusable bottle with a concentrated kind of pouch. It's not even a pouch, it's in a box, a little concentrated box that you put in, fill with water it yourself at home to get your cleaners and then you reuse the glass bottle. So that's fascinating. I'm super fascinated by reusable models and I think there's so much opportunity to scale that there's some delivery systems in the US like deliver zero that's trying to come up with ways where restaurants, when they do takeout can use a reusable container and then there's a supply chain to collect it and wash it and get it back. I mean, I don't know about you, but I have so many containers stacked up from my sushi takeout weekly that I don't want. And sometimes I remember to bring my container, sometimes I don't. But that kind of packaging innovation to me is fascinating. So a mix of reusable and reduction and recyclable, all of that, there's a lot of good stuff happening.

Well, I am actually going to go later to for something, so I'll be looking out for all of this. Look for the meat stuff. I was laughing to think who complains about how the meat's been packaged and wrapped. I dunno, people must do it, but I'm going to look later, so I'll be looking out for this. So I'm also going to, I have a question actually that we want to know from our side actually, and so is slightly cringey, but I'm going to ask it in this manner. But since our podcast is called Delivered, we want to actually ask you what's the best thing that you've kind of delivered from your side, whether it both, it could be a career thing or it could be a personal life thing you can choose, but it feels like a very apt question at this stage. Just to throw it out to your side.

Oh my gosh, the best thing. That's a lot of pressure there.

Lot to end on the high.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm so grateful when I got to Nestle that I was assigned to work on this project, my very first job because I do think I am someone who's always had sustainability deep within me. I hadn't quite thought about it. I'm somebody who spends a lot of time outdoors, probably was a little crunchier in my youth. And so finding that intersection with my career was so fulfilling. And I think because it's always top of mind for me and I kind of live it and breathe it and personally really care about it. I think just having found the path in that intersection of marketing and communications and brand strategy combined with sustainability has probably been my biggest impact overall. So just being able to show up and bring my passion to every project that I work on. I believe it and it definitely brings me joy. Yeah,

I love that. What a nice way to kind of wrap up this whole episode. That's such a nice way to put it. So look, thank you for all the insights on this. There's so much to unpack and digest and all the good things around this. There's so much. Where can people, obviously we talked a bit about APR. Where can they find you online and the good work that you and the team are doing?

Yeah, so plasticsrecycling.org is our website for APR. A lot of free resources and great resources on there to understand recycling and also tools to design packaging for recycling and get certification for recycled content. And I'm on LinkedIn, if anybody wants to connect, please reach out.

Love that pa, thank you so much for the knowledge and keep up the good work. It's very much important work. So thank you for coming in and joining you.

Sustainable packaging. When you go shopping tonight,

You can count on it. That's the first thing I'll be doing. I'll be doing that. Hey, thanks so much again and thanks for being on Delivered.

Yeah, thank you. Great to be here.