When great products become the baseline, brand becomes the moat with Amanda Gandolpho

“Build it, and they will come” is one of the most expensive myths in business. As AI makes it easier than ever to build products, features that once felt differentiating can be replicated almost overnight.

The harder thing to build is what happens in people’s minds: the emotional connection, associations, and memories they develop around a brand. That’s why the strongest brands don’t just compete on what their product does. They work to become part of the mental shortlist people return to when they think about a category.

Amanda Gandolpho, Head of Content & Design at Rituals and a brand leader with 15+ years of experience, joined us on Delivered to unpack how to build that kind of brand.

In this episode, she shares her unique brand-building framework, explains why seeing meaningful results could take longer than you think, and makes the case for why brands need to resist the temptation to simply produce more in an AI-saturated world.

Key learnings:

• Learn what a brand really is and how to build one from scratch
• Understand which metrics actually matter when measuring brand and content performance
• Discover how to connect with Gen Z without falling into the “cringe trap”
• Find out what will make brands stand out in the AI-saturated world
• Explore where AI strengthens creative work, and the ethical line Amanda refuses to cross

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Delivered is brought to you by a leading digital product agency, Infinum. We've been consulting, workshopping, and delivering advanced digital solutions since 2005.

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The core message and what you're trying to do, or with the audience you're trying to talk to, this needs to be consistent. Yeah. Otherwise, you are screaming A and then Z, and then people will not, uh, form those memory connections over time.

I think every brand under the sun wants to have a Gen Z playbook. <laugh>

I think one of the key things about Gen Z, and everybody knows this, they are digital natives. They are not really buying necessarily this for everybody communication, unless it has a very strong point of view, something very distinctive, something that is unpredictable - Mm. Or, um, that advocates for a better world type of thing. So what is my why? Why am I doing this? Yeah. And how my why connects deeper with the audience that I'm trying to serve. I think this is the key question that a lot of brands that fall short or not noticed, um - Yeah. Yeah, they don't spend enough time thinking about it. Very few companies out there that can have really distinctive pa- patented, uh, things that, you know, cannot be copied. So, but the emotional connection and the memory structures that you create towards, in an audience, uh - Yeah. Towards your brand, that cannot be copied.
I think the brands that will cut through are not only the ones that are just putting a lot out there, but they are entertaining and they are re - they really know what they are for. Being able to turn something that is very like, oh, condiment and burgers into like, "Hey guys, let's make Taste Not Waste into our homes and really be a, an icon in that

Sense." Let's make taste, not waste. Like -

Yeah, it's catchy, right?

Yeah, yeah,

Yeah. Um, and I think this is one of the best things, uh, I was part of and have delivered.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Delivered, the show where we talk about everything related to building successful products and brands. My name is Georgios. I'm your host, and I'm the managing director of Your Majesty, now part of Infinum. Today, I have another super interesting guest, Amanda Gandolpho. Welcome.

Hello, everybody. Thank you.

Uh, Amanda is the head of content and design at Rituals. Before she was at Rituals, she spent a couple of years at Swapfiets and all the big, uh, Unilever, Mondelez and those kind of things. And she's here to talk about what it means to build a brand nowadays, and especially as it relates to Gen Z. Before we started recording, uh, we talked a little bit about something completely unrelated to my script. So going on script immediately. <laugh> Um, you just got back from Africa.

Correct.

Yes,

I did.

What, um, where did you go and what did you do?

Um, I spent the last two weeks in Kenya, actually. Very cool.

Um,

Doing a bit of safari, uh, and we had the amazing idea, my partner and I, to drive a four by four by ourselves through the streets of Kenya, exploring, uh, and to camp in the middle of a animal sanctuary, which was an interesting idea.

Pretty wild, literally. <laugh> And figuratively. Yeah.

Exactly. I, I thought I would be this type of people that, uh, are very adventurous and camp and, uh, I try to move out of my comfort zone whilst being there. And after one day camping, I went back to hotels. So I guess, uh, this gave me a really, uh, good idea of who, <laugh> you know, you have the ideal person and who you are, uh, when it comes to these things and,

Uh. Yeah. I mean, I, I've been to Nairobi and I must say I would not be comfortable going outside without a guide. Yeah. But so, so kudos to you. I mean, you're here to tell the story, so it worked out in the end. Was, was there any. Did you have any big highlights from, from Kenya in general?

Honestly, I think Kenyans are such lovable people and they are amazing. So we did have the best time. It's not that, uh, it was danger at all. Mm-hmm. I was impressed by their connection with nature, how, you know, they know so, they're so knowledgeable about nature and animals in general - Yeah. Which

Is

Something that we, in the big European cities, we sort of lose connection. Yeah.

Um,

Yeah, so I think that was a, a highlight.

Very cool. Now, you're back. Yeah. So let's get, uh, down to business. So -

Back to the office.

Yes, exactly. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Who's Amanda? Tell us about your career journey and how did you end up in the place you are now?

Nice. Um, well, first of all, I'm Brazilian. I'm, uh, not from the Netherlands originally. Grew up, uh, in Sao Paulo, huge city. Um, and I didn't have quite a linear career. So, uh, since I'm very young, I knew I wanted to work with advertising and brands, but of course, to get also a good job in a great agency, these things are not always, uh, that straightforward. Yeah. I was lucky enough to start at, um, DDB and Sachi and Sachi. In Sao Paulo? In Sao Paulo. Then I moved, and I was doing PR back then. Mm-hmm. So totally different versus what I do today, but still gave me a lot of tools to, um, judge creative work and to, you know, see what cuts through, what gets noticed.

Yeah.

I went to the big clients like Mondelez, Unilever, and in there I've done from trade marketing to innovation to building, starting to build brands and communications to digital. And I think slowly but surely, people started, like, pushing me more towards the creative and branding side. Like, oh, this girl's creative. Put her there. Yeah.

Leave

Her out of the, I don't know, supply chain meetings, but put her in the creative meetings. And, uh, and then I started moving more towards that direction until I, uh, was leading Hellman's communications globally -

Okay.

Uh, for all the 45 plus markets we've got. And then more recently, I was as brand and creative director at Swapfiets, leading the brand for the past four years.

Yeah.

And now at Rituals. So, uh, yeah, I fell in love for the Dutch brands, I guess.

Very cool. And quite a journey. But, uh, and you're from Sao Paulo. Is it true that they have pretty strict laws for advertising and stuff in Sao Paulo? For what can be like outdoor, uh, billboards and stuff?

Yeah. Yeah. Some, I think about more 15 years ago, they, they decided, yeah, the streets. I don't know if you've been to Sao Paulo. It's a crazy concrete jungle. Mm-hmm. A lot of visual noise. Uh, and they've decided to remove billboards to, to support -

That's what I heard. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So you do have digital ones or in the bus or

Things

Like that, but, uh, not as much as we have in other places, no.

Mm. So then working in creative and, uh, advertising industry, it's quite a challenge then to figure out how to get people's attention?

Well, you've got digital - Yeah. You've

Got

Brand experiences and installations. I think these things go

Well. Okay. And that's still, uh, totally doable? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Very

Cool. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, quite the journey you've been through. Would you say that that has shaped how you are as a creative now? What did that detour, if you will, give you that maybe the traditional ladder would not have given you?

It's interesting because I think when you. Of course, back then, I didn't know what I was doing, right? Mm-hmm. Like most of us, uh, don't. And I was just going through these different roles, trying to learn and do my best. Mm-hmm. And I think upon reflection, always in hindsight, life makes sense in hindsight. But it helped me to have a lot more empathy for the different roles and functions within any business that I'm working with.

Mm-hmm.

So what would the. How can I approach a problem through the lens of commercial, creative, branding and marketing, if you will, or even trade marketing, uh - Yeah. People that are trying to do it on the, on the frontline, uh, towards customers. So I think it's a bit of empathy and understanding and then that connecting the dots on how can we make, you know, a creative or, or any branding strategy that really serves the business and the people that are in it. I think this is the -

Mm.

Best thing that that gave me.

Okay, cool. Moving into what you've done recently. So Swapfiets is a big success story maybe for, we have a lot of international users, uh, users, viewers - Yeah. And listeners. Um, for those who don't know Swapfiets, can you talk a little bit about that? And you went from big, uh, corporate brands to a scale-up. Mm-hmm. Tell us a little bit also about that transition.

Nice. I think for those who don't know Swapfiets, it's, uh, the world's largest bike subscription

Company. Oh, wow. I did not know that.

And they came up with a category that didn't exist before.

Yeah.

So either you would buy a bike or maybe you would share a bike, one of those lines sent in their bikes that you

See

Across the city. Yeah. Um, but they tackled, like, this problem of convenience around biking. Yeah. Um, so essentially what you do is you get your own bike, it is yours, you can use it every day, park it at your own house - uh-huh. And you pay a monthly fee for it. Yeah. If anything happens to your bike, they fix it or Swapfiets it, uh - Yeah, so

It's like a subscription service,

Right? Exactly. It's the Netflix of bikes. Um - Very cool. And this came around 10 years ago. Mm-hmm. And this became huge in big cycling markets like the Netherlands, and more recently we've built the brand in Denmark, but we've expanded as well. Um, they are now at eight, uh - Yeah. European markets. And I think Swapfiets, it, it grows as the infrastructure of cycling and more people are getting onto cycling.

Yeah.

Um, and we removed the big pain point of, like, oh, pe - most people, they just wanna bike. They don't wanna deal with bike repairs - uh-huh. Or not having the bike or we just wanna use things when we wanna use them. Uh, and especially when it comes to, to, to Gen Z - Yeah. Um, who is an, an audience that wants to a bit outsource as much as possible, uh, the pains <laugh> - Yeah. Uh, for them. And I think it's, it's very generational thing, right? Because my parents, they would be like, "Why would you pay for something that you don't own? You gotta own it, you know? Yeah. It's, it's your bike and then you can sell it." And - uh-huh. Talk with a Gen Z person about reselling also these type of things or, or dealing with the pains of. Yeah. It, it, it's just not the, the best way.
Yeah. Um, so essentially, Swapfiets is just removing this pain of cycling. Um - Yeah. We say bringing worry-free biking to everybody.

That's super cool. And also, I think we have a lot of international people working for, for us and sometimes interns and those kind of things. And then one benefit for them is that they can start and stop it - Yeah. Also. So it's like, oh, when their internship is over, they just end their subscription, they return the bike, and off, off they go. They don't have to worry about, uh, s- selling or what happens afterwards. So it's a very cool company and from a brand and marketing standpoint, uh, success story. I think if you've ever been to Amsterdam, you'll see these bikes with this blue wheel on them. Yeah. That's a Swapfiets. And now that has become a thing. And, uh, I had briefs that we had for especially mobility companies. Mm-hmm. Uh, as we come in, "Hey, can you help us figure out how to create a distinct brand, blah, blah, blah." Mm-hmm.
And they always give Swapfiets as an example. Oh, maybe we could paint one of the wheels. <laugh> Uh, and we're like, "Oh, someone else has done that already. It's working really well." <laugh>

And we do have competitors in different markets that, uh, did paint their,

Uh - Oh,

Really? Uh-huh. We have, uh, one in Spain that painted yellow. I was like, "Not a great idea, guys, because yellow gets dirty very fast."

Oh, yes.

And then the whole bike looks not great.

Yeah.

We had some that painted the orange, so there you go. There are all kinds of,

Uh - Oh, very cool. You

Know.

Yeah. It's definitely a cool success story. But I wanted to ask, that was, that's a scale-up, right? So what was the big difference coming from a Mondelez to a Swapfiets?

Yeah. I think after being more than 10 years in corporates, and then the last one, Unilever, which is, I think, state of art when it comes to marketing and organization. And back then I though they were disorganized. Now I, I know -

It's like a machine.

Yeah. They, it works so well. Everybody knows what they should do. I guess coming into a scale up, it felt for me a bit like Wild Wild West at first. I was like, "Oh, do I have..." And, and I remember them really giving me a white canvas on like, "Okay, how do you develop the brand now? And what do you wanna do? What campaign do you wanna do? What are..." Whilst in Unilever, things are more set in stone and you're always improving and evolving things - Yeah. While

Swapfiets

Is like - Figure it.

Yeah, figure it out. Figure it

Out. Get it done. We say, "Make it happen." Yeah. Um, so I started trying to figure out how to make it happen. Yeah. Understanding the brand, understanding the, the roots. Uh, and I guess the main difference when you are into scale up environment is that a lot is up to you. Yeah. So you're having a thousand heads at the same time. You really need to work with different people to make it happen. Different people will also change their roles slightly over time to pursue their different interests-

Interests.

Yeah. And I find that beautiful. Whilst in corporate, it's a bit more, "Hey, this is your role. That's what you were hired to do."

We have that also in agency world when we've had. I mean, we're a small team here. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes we've had people coming over from the big agencies, like the network agencies. And it's been very, uh, for some of them, they loved it. No, I get to do all these things that I used to do, but some other people would come in, "So, so who's gonna make this keynote for me?" <laugh> And then it's like, "Oh yeah, yeah. I know exactly what needs to go in there, but who's going to make it?" Yeah,

You.

It's up to you. Exactly. Oh, well, um, some people like that. Where, where would you put yourself on that, uh, spectrum? Ooh. Do it yourself versus, uh, working with the delegation. I

Guess I was more spoiled within corporate with that for sure. Yeah. Less hands-on. And, but I love being hands-on. So I also found the beauty within that. Uh, of course, when you're working with a team, there's always division on who does what, but - Yeah. I just love getting, getting the decks done myself. I find it much easier. I also don't find the most glorifying work when you're just laying down all the foundation just as someone to execute for you.

Mm-hmm.

So I really try to find that balance with my teams on, "Hey, I also expect you to put some thinking on."

Yeah.

Or, um, if I have all the thinking done, maybe I just do it myself. So - Ah,

Gotcha. Yeah. So during those four years, what was the journey? And do you have any highlights or key achievements that you're most proud of during your tenure at Swapfiets?

Well, I think Swapfiets is, again, a beautiful young brand. Um, one of the things I've noticed when I arrived is, uh, the, the brand wheel or the sort of strategy or the, the key unique selling points of Swapfiets - uh-huh. They were not very concrete. Mm-hmm. And they were also not based on any user data. It was more like, "I think this, you think that. The manager, the management thinks that, or the founder thinks -

Yeah.

X, Y, Z." So I really try to bring more data into it. Not, nothing as robust as I would do in Unilever with a lot of consumer quant, qual data, et cetera. But even things like talking to people in the stores or listening to people online, that can already give you data points to, you know, get some consumer insight and some thinking into the strategy. So we've done a whole work on clarifying what were the unique selling points of Swapfiets and making sure that we were hammering them down consistently in every piece of communication.

Yeah.

And one of the things that happens a lot, especially in bigger companies, is that marketeers, um, get very tired of their own work. So - Yeah. Because we're leaving and breathing the brand every day of the

Week. Yeah. Marketing is, uh, as a, you know, that can make it look sexy and unique. I mean, it's, a lot of it's just repetition, right?

Yes. Yeah. And, and getting it right, right? Yeah. And, and of course you can iterate and have different, I don't know, words or colors or design and make it pop more or less. Mm-hmm. But the core message and what you're trying to do or with the audience you're trying to talk to, this needs to be consistent. Yeah. Otherwise, you are screaming A and then Z, and then people will not, uh, form those memory connections over time. Yeah. So I think this was something that I, I try to land in Swapfiets, uh, and I think it's, it's landed. Yeah. So even if I see now that I'm, I'm not there anymore, some other homes that they put out recently, I'm like, "Oh, great. The claims are there." It, it, it's - Yeah, of course. It's in a totally different execution. Yeah. But we're still saying the same thing.
And I think that's important, especially in a brand at an initial stage - Yeah. Where nobody knows you, you're trying to really cut through. Yeah. Um, and I think another thing that I've learned a lot in Swapfiets, uh, is messy action. So do not wait for perfection - uh-huh. Or validation of 100 people and you just move forward, put things out there, iterates. Um -

Oh, cool.

And this is something that we did a lot with social media.

Yeah.

So when I arrived, we really didn't have a social media strategy or even a content team. And I was like, "Guys, I need a content creator." Mm. "I need someone who can, you know, there's something happening, uh, out there. They shoot and produce and put a video on the same day of it." And, and yeah, I guess now it's probably normal to have that, but I still feel that a lot of brands, they have four layers of approval for a social organic post. Most of my social organic things in Swapfiets, I would not even see it. I would see after it was posted and sometimes I would, I would come to the team and be like, "Guys, I really don't understand." And they're like, "You're not the audience." It's fine.

That's cool because I was gonna ask as you were, as you were talking, it's like, how do you handle the governance there? So it's more like go wild and ask for forgiveness, not permission kind of a workflow.

100%. Okay. Very cool. I mean, of course, at the start, we had a lot of alignment on, okay, what are we trying to do? What are the pillars? What are the content pillars

That we're trying to do? Yeah. So there's a distinct, uh, framework that they can operate within.

Yeah. Do, do they ladder up to the - Yeah. Unique selling points that we're trying to do, et cetera. How far can we push it? So we had a lot of conversations, but ultimately it's just about putting people out there trying. Yeah. Uh, and more and more we started bringing interns because we didn't have a lot of budget, to be honest, to do the whole team. So we hired a really amazing unicorn and we put a, we called it army of interns around him. By the time I left, I think he had four people like around him. Wow. And every time we would hire a new intern, we had literally, in one day, 300 applications because people were like, "We love Swapfiets social media. We wanna do it. We wanna make it happen." That's so cool. Yeah. Uh, again, most of the times I would not even see it only after it was posted.
Yeah. And the team really thrived at that freedom. Yeah. And if there was any critical thing, yeah, maybe we would put one video down, re-edit, bring it back.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. The, the, the, I don't know, the thousand people that have seen it, well, it's fine. Yeah,

Yeah. Super cool. We talked a little bit about, uh, Gen Z already. That's a big, uh, demographic for a brand like Swapfiets Fix. And I think every brand under the sun wants to have a Gen Z playbook. <laugh> What do you think most brand gets wrong about Gen Z, and what do you think actually works?

It's interesting, right? Because if you look especially at bigger brands and who is on the leadership of these bigger brands, um, they are probably millennials, Boomers, Gen X, and even if they have children, their children are not in the, necessarily in the Gen Z cohort. So we almost have a, a lack of touch with the cohort that you're, you might trying to, to be selling to.

Yeah.

I think one of the key things about Gen Z, and everybody knows is they are digital natives. Yeah. So when I was a little girl, all we had was TV, telenovelas, billboards, and - Yeah. And print. And there are still brands nowadays that are thinking through those lens. Mm-hmm. So they are thinking about, oh, what, what goes to these type of media things? Then

They're signing for them or creating for themselves. So what they are used to or what they build. Or, or

Creating for, let's say, and then you ask, "Oh, who is your audience?" Oh, everybody, because everybody can, can sell it. And there is a big thing within media that I say, of course you want with media, you wanna reach as many people as possible. Mm-hmm. Every eyeball is desirable. But to create, you need to have a creative, we call it the creative bullseye.

Yeah.

Who are you trying to really talk to? Because if you don't have that, then it just will fall vanilla. It will be like a wallpaper communication. And I think especially Gen Z, because they were already born in this fragmented digital world -

Yeah.

They are very used to having content that fits for them served to them. So it's quite like, uh, they are not really buying necessarily this for everybody communication, unless it has a very strong point of view, something very distinctive, something that it's unpredictable - Mm. Or, um, that advocates for a better world type of thing. Yeah. Um, they don't like to feel that they are being sell to. Yeah. They are way too savvy for that. And, and it's even cringe actually for them when you try to put it in your face. They're like, "Oh, cute. These, uh, old school brands trying to sell me stuff." Yeah. Yeah. Of course, if it's cheap and it's a good product, I might buy it.

Yeah.

'Cause, uh, you know, but it's not necessarily a brand that they're gonna connect with.

No. And so do you have turned your point of view into a framework for, that you keep coming back to when building brands now? Or how do you think about it?

I think as well. So yes. And this framework that I use is really for brands, not necessarily businesses. I think brands, um, it's almost like if the, if the business would become a person, what type of person do I, am I connecting with? That, that is what I'm thinking of. Okay. Yeah. Um, and that's why a lot of businesses, especially small businesses might benefit from personal branding of the founder, of the CEO. Again - Yeah, you

See a lot of, uh, founder stories, founder branding.

That is nothing more than indeed giving an identity -

Yeah.

To the brand. Yeah.

So

Especially when you don't have a lot of budget to build an extra identity, you borrow it from somebody who already exists.

Yeah.

But a brand for me is, I always think in a threefold. I always start with the why - Yeah. Of the brand. Why the brand exists? Why is that different? Um, then, and if this brand would end tomorrow, who would miss it? Yeah. So it's really around purpose and why. And in, when I talk, when I say purpose, it can go from the most inspiring purpose to just more straightforward purpose. Mm-hmm. Right? Then I go towards relevance, which is, does your product or service can, in a relevant way, deliver on what you say your purpose is?

Yeah.

Otherwise, you're just shouting purpose. I'm here to do this. I'm here to do that. But you're not actually doing it or your

Service

Does not, does not align with that. And finally, for me, it's around credibility, which is not only having products and services, but over time showing and demonstrating to your audience that you are delivering on that purpose. Yeah. So because if you only have the product or service, but nobody is aware or you're not walking your talk, then, and this can go anywhere in credibility from sustainability initiatives to activations to, you know, things that you do or, or sponsorships, things that you do over time -

Yeah. To

Really bring that home, um, to people and be known for it.

If you would start building a brand from scratch, like, on Monday next week, um -

Nice.

How would you approach that? And is there any. Yeah. I guess there's no quick fixes in brand building, but if you have any advice for someone starting on Monday.

I like to say that, and I've verified this with my work over time, for you to know whether your brand strategy is working, it's not a yearly thing. Usually I see the result, the, the real result of my work after two to three years.

Wow.

And I can really like, "Oh, okay. So this is where it started shifting and, uh, if you do it, well, of course it's - Yeah. This

Is

More from a brand beauty perspective. Um, if I would start tomorrow, I would first decide, do I wanna create an extra entity? So this sort of new brand personality, et cetera, do I wanna do something very close to my personal story as the founder and the CEO and how those two would connect. So what is my why? Why am I doing this? Yeah. And how my why connects deeper with the audience that I'm trying to serve. Mm-hmm. I think this is the key question that a lot of brands that fall short or are not noticed. Um - Yeah. Yeah. They don't spend enough time thinking about it. Yeah. So they are very focused on having the best products out there that really performs, that really sells, that really delivers, but they're not thinking that much about the why or that emotional layer. Yeah.

Um,

Which will lead a lot of companies to success, of course. If you have an amazing product and an amazing price, sure. Yeah. But in the world of today where everything is connected, we're, uh, globalized, uh, yeah, it can be easily copied, right?

Yeah.

So how many startups and, uh, in tech are just sort of launching features and in this crazy rush, uh, and one is copying the other? Mm-hmm.

So

It's very few companies out there that can have really distinctive pa- patented, uh, things that, you know, cannot be copied. So, but the emotional connection and the memory structures that you create towards, in an audience, uh - Yeah. Towards your brand, that cannot be copied. Yeah. Or that is very hard to be copied. And that's why, uh, the most valuable brands out there really spend a lot of money and thinking into this. It's almost like a, a, um, m - we call it mental availability. So whenever you think about a category, are you gonna think about your brand? Are you, is your brand gonna be there in the pool of options that occupy a little -

Yeah.

Space in your mind? Uh, and that memory structure that once you. So if I tell you about, I don't know, red and, uh, yellow, wow, okay, I think about McDonald's or -

Yeah.

Or certain symbols, you're gonna think about certain brands. So, so these things, it's very hard to copy - Yeah. Because

That's

An intimate connection you've made with, uh -

But take also very long time to build. You mentioned that you look back, uh, three years later to see how your, you know, the results, um, which is a long time, especially if you're starting out. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Um, is there any leading indicators you look for along the way on those three years to kinda s - you know, accomplish to see that are we moving in the right directions?

I think it really varies, uh, depending on the size of the brand - uh-huh. And the size of the company you're talking about. Yeah. So for a small brand, uh, like Swapfiets or a smaller business, sales is the best indicator. Yeah. So, so you gotta know if, if it's selling more - Yeah. Or not. Uh, and I think whenever we would do campaigns in specific cities and markets, we could pinpoint exactly the day that the campaign started, how much your web traffic is coming, how much, uh, yeah, more you're being looked for - Yeah.

Or,

Or sales. So I think those signals are very easy to spot. Mm. Not necessarily for brand building, but whether your campaign is cutting through the noise. Yeah. It doesn't mean that the campaign will build amazing memory structures over time, then you have to do it over time.

Yeah. Uh,

Yeah. Sales is the biggest indicator, I think, for bigger businesses. You have all kinds of -

Again, I can imagine, like, audience growth then across your channels, maybe?

Like

Followers or - Followers. Yeah, yeah. Those kind of things or do you pay attention to tho - to those metrics?

I think yes and no, because the algorithms change all the time, especially in - Good point. Like the more, uh, views or we would look a lot in Swapfiets, uh, on the seconds that people are watching the content. So on average, I think we would have more than eight or 10 seconds of watched content, which is quite a lot compared to the -

Oh, so you look at, uh, how much of the clip they're watching?

How much they wanna - Ah, yeah. Watch that content. Yeah. It means that they're engaging. So I think also a lot of people are just passive scrolling and not necessarily liking, engaging, sharing it. Of course everybody wants to like and, and share and et cetera. Yeah. But even if they are watching the content long enough, I think that's a very good indicator of the quality of the content and how much is resonating with the audience. Yeah. We would not look at, I, I think the quantity of followers, not as much.

Mm.

Um, there, there, and there are campaigns that you can also really look for quantity of followers, but I feel like unless you are a content creator, that's more a bit of a vanity metric for, for brands.

Yeah. I think that's good advice. Switching gears a bit. So you come from Swapfiets, now you have your new role, uh, at Rituals. Mm-hmm. Um, head of content and design. Easy question first, what does that mean? <laugh> What does a head of content of design - What are you heading? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's an interesting one because when you are brand creative director at Swapfiets, you are really, you know, laying the foundations of the brand and, and, and getting the departments on, on a certain direction and really

Owning

It. As you move back to a more complex, bigger organization, there's not really, um. Yeah, I would like to say there's not really one person that it's fully owning it. Well, maybe, uh, the CEO definitely, but, uh, within Rituals, one interesting thing is that, um, we do all of the content, it's created by internal teams.

Oh, okay.

So we have a huge department of creatives -

Yeah. Uh,

Producers and people that are amazing with content - Yeah. Serving rituals across all markets, all touchpoints from in-store to print to out of home, et

Cetera. Led from the Netherlands also?

Yes. Yeah, the headquarters is in, uh, in Amsterdam. Um, and I am leading within the, the content studio of Rituals, the group of creatives, so the content and design.

Very

Cool. Yeah.

Uh, there can't be a podcast nowadays that's not talking about AI, so let's get into that a little bit. Yes. Uh, we're of course curious to know what you think are the upsides of using AI in the creative process and the branding process, and if you could share a bit how your, your teams are using it.

I love it because it changes every day. Obviously, um, and, and, and Rituals, I think it's no, not different, but a lot of people, um, might think that, "Hey, let's just create a writer in AI doing all the content or let's just create, um,
Yeah, designs in AI." I think AI supports us a lot on especially ideation for concepting. Mm-hmm. So, um, one of the things is whenever we're thinking about a new concept, new product, and we wanna show to different stakeholders, "Hey, how might we bring that to life?" Uh, I think just prompting AI to come up with already a bit of a vision or a mood board, that helps us a lot - uh-huh. Makes us very fast. And whenever there's disagreements between people like, "Hey, I though it would be like this or like that," we can always go back to a more tangible image to - Yeah. Kinda discuss. I think it's much easier and avoids misalignment later down the line. So you

Can take the, the concepting much further. So it looks closer to what you actually wanna put out. Exactly. And I can imagine then for non-creative stakeholders, it's easier for them to make decisions because they see, "Oh, that's how you, that's what you mean."

Exactly.

Uh,

Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Uh, and I think we, because I think Rituals is quite advanced in the usage of AI. Mm-hmm. We have some AI artists. We have people that work with - Oh, really? Yeah.

So like dedicated roles for those things? Yes. Very

Cool. We do. We do. Um, and we already are into a point that different campaigns fully, are being fully created by the AI artists. Of course, always a human behind the computer, but - Yeah. Using AI programs, especially when it comes to product collections and, and well, the assortment of rituals is huge. Yeah. So you can imagine that shooting every new product, it would also take a lot of time, a lot of effort. Yeah. So sometimes we would default to AI to, to create also beautiful things. Yeah. Where we draw the line is really on human subjects. So we do not, unless it's a hand - Yeah. For example, um, within the AI composition, but we would never do like human subjects or likeness, um, within AI. Yeah. So that is, that is where we ethically are not crossing that line. Um, so whenever there will be a model, then we would definitely use, we're gonna have a more normal sort of regular shoot.

Okay. I'm, uh, abandoning my career dreams as hand model.

Yeah, exactly. <laugh> Um - Yeah, I know. I really though I could be a hand model.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Um, do you have a point of view on which brands you think will win in this AI saturated content world? <laugh> And then do you, what would this then set them apart?

Oh, um, that's the thing. You have so much being created with AI. Yeah. And as we said, new audiences, very fragmented, you wanna see what you wanna see or you wanna see more content that connects with you. So it's very easy to fall into the trap of like more, more is

More. More is more. Yeah. Okay.

Um, I still firmly believe on getting back to the core of what makes a brand relevant - Yeah. What makes it purposeful. Um, and I think the brands that will cut through are not only the ones that are just putting a lot out there, but they are entertaining and they are re - they really know what they are for.

Yeah.

So I always ask in every company I arrive, it's like, what are we fighting for here? Mm-hmm. Or what are we fighting against? You know, do we have any purpose? Well, of course, sales, but sales is not a purpose. Uh, it's just a means for me to realize something bigger. So that's something that I also committed with that I only work for brands and companies that I feel are actually making a positive impact in the world.

Mm-hmm. Um,

Because I think there's nothing less stimulating for a creative where you just arrive into a new company and you're like, okay, so what am I supposed to do? Oh, sell. Just

Sell.

Yeah. Just put a pack shot with, you know, a price and a, and a background and - Yeah. Ugh, can you imagine a world where advertising is all this? Yeah. We would all become supermarkets, you know? Yeah. Like jumbo ads. <laugh> Like the meat is on sale and then you just - Yeah, yeah yeah. Replace that for a, for a pack shot. I think it, it's also up to the companies that you work for, understanding the leadership vision for

That

Company. Yeah.

How does that look like at Rituals?

I think Rituals is one of the few companies that is, that has been able to understand, um, or to communicate wellbeing

At

Scale. Mm-hmm. So we talk a lot about -

Wellbeing at scale. Nice.

Moments of pause. So in crazy rushed lives, connected lives, we're always trying to get from one thing to another. Rituals philosophy is that you should and you can take moments for yourself. And they don't need to be like, "Oh, I'm gonna go to Africa or I'm gonna do a spa." No, you can have those little moments of pause at home. Yeah. They could be via a nice Kindle, but they could also be via just, I don't know, breathing and, and observing life through a window, you know? Yeah. So I think it's a beautiful philosophy and something that the world desperately needs. And I love that, you know, this, this wellbeing yet at accessible prices. So I think that, that drew me to the company. And, and besides, it's a beautiful brand, beautiful product. So, uh -

Hearing you speak there, it made it more clear to me. It's a very. Great brands, they have a clear red thread. Mm-hmm. Like that goes from the big idea that the change they wanna see in the world to, and how it flows across all the products and the manifestations of how it comes to life. And I think just hearing you talk now, I was like, oh yeah, Rituals is very, it's super clear from the name all the way to everything, how it does things. That's, that's well done. And I mean, the results speak for themselves, right? They've been extremely successful.

Yeah. The, I mean, continuously growing. I think also from a branding perspective, when you go to Brandsy, uh - Yeah. Kantar, also last year, I think it grew 33%, um, from a, also a branding perspective - Yeah. And how much people have that emotional connection or understand that the brand exists. Yeah. So, uh, I think they have a very bright path ahead.

Yeah, very cool. But you're leading the creative team over there. Um, some advice, let's go into some advice for creative leaders. How do you build a great creative teams? What's a example of a green flag that most hiring managers might miss?

Interesting, right? Because, uh, it's not always up to you when you come as a leader to build the team yourself. Mm-hmm. Of course, you do it over time. Yeah. Very often you, you lead with the people that are already there - Yeah. Or have been hired by someone else. Um, what I personally look for when I'm hiring is, it's a mix of obviously talent, uh, but also how fast can you learn? Yeah. Or how fast are you willing to learn? Yeah. And my main question is, can you get stuff done?

Yeah.

In the sense of some people, they might always look for reasons why they cannot. Mm-hmm. And I don't expect perfection, but I expect people to be moving forward, have ownership of their work, defend their work. I really love to hire people that care about something, care about their craft -

Yeah.

Care. And the other part for me, besides this, is flexibility. Flexibility to work with different people, different mindsets. Sometimes you, when you have people that are very rigid in the way that they think and the way that they work, I find that quite hard to change.

Yeah.

And so I'm always looking flexibility, this talent, and eagerness to learn.

What I'm hearing is bias for action. This is viral clip of Obama when they ask him, "What's your career advice?" And he's like, "Get shit done." Yeah.

I think I've, I've seen this

Before. Yeah, yeah. Just go in there and get things done. It will be okay.

I mean, you know, uh, just apply yourself, you

Know?

Yeah. And if you don't know it, try to fix it. Try to ask who knows it. Yeah. I think that's still my best career advice.

And then the second point you said was about the growth mindset. Mm-hmm. Being open to new things. And I think especially now, uh, we always have this, one of our core values is, um, every day school day.

Nice.

And what we mean with that is that it's not only about being able to pick up and learn new things, it's also being comfortable with the discomfort of unlearning old things. Especially now when things change, like the tools we are using every three months, we just, "Oh, I just learned how to use ChatGPT." It's like, "Oh, no one talks about ChatGPT anymore. Now it's only about cloud. Dammit. And then you need to be willing and be okay with just letting go all the things you learn and start with something new." And I think bias for action and embracing change in that sense, I think then is the key.

And I think there is also a humbleness of also admitting when you don't know something.

Yes. Right?

Totally. Um, and I love to work with people that, you know, they're just the real deal. They're like when they, you know, there's trust, but there's also like, "Hey, I don't know. I need help." Yeah. And

I think

That's one of the best things you can do, whether you're a leader or a, a individual contributor.

Yeah. And, and I think, especially young people, they think that they need to have an answer to everything. Exactly. But it's like, it's okay to don't know and say, "But I will figure it out."

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And reassure that the person is like, "By this time, I will figure this out."

Yep. And I think as well that, that leadership mindset, because for me, you don't need to have a team to be a leader - uh-huh.

Within

Your own department, within your own function. You can also lead by, you know, showing your vulnerability, getting things yourself, inspiring others, being that, uh, coworker that everybody wants to be around. So.

Yeah. Totally. And fully agree. One question that we ask all our guests is, uh, the, the show is called Delivered. All right. So we ask everybody the same question. What's the thing that you have delivered in your career or personal life that you consider your best work so far? Or the one that you're most proud of?

Wow. It's a good question. And maybe I'll answer in two ways.

Go for it.

I think career-wise, one of the most impactful things I've delivered was the whole Hellmann's. Uh, for those who don't know Hellmann's, it's a mayonnaise brand.

Mm-hmm.

It's delicious. Have it with your fries and your

Hamburger.

Yeah. Um, but many years ago, I think this was about eight years ago, we wanted to move Hellmann's from condiments to a more purposeful -

Uh-huh.

Brand. So we did the whole framework that I've been talking about, about, about beauty purposeful brands for Hellmann's. And we realized that actually you can use Hellmann's as a condiment to add taste to things in your fridge that you would waste otherwise. Okay. So we entered into this whole world of food waste, how families waste food, how, how a lot of food gets wasted also in restaurants and the supply chain and so forth. And it's amazing when a big brand, big company, they really wanna go deeper into these problems because we crafted a whole behavior change program - Yeah. Uh, that helped families in three different continents to waste 40% less food in their homes.

Oh, wow.

Food waste has a direct impact to climate change as well. Yeah. And this had also a knockdown effect on the different countries having lots of different activations to repurpose food that would be wasted in the supermarkets to families in need, for example. So it was a whole beautiful stream of work that took us, I think, four years to even get going, cumulated into our first Super Bowl ad. So also being part of - Oh, very cool. Of, of that for Hellmann's and for Unilever was also a gift. Yeah. Um, but more than that, I think being able to turn something that it's very like, oh, condiment and burgers into like, "Hey guys, let's make Taste Not Waste into our homes and really be a, an icon in that sense." Let's make

Taste not waste. Like it.

Yeah. It's catchy, right? Yeah,

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and I think this is one of the best things, uh, I was part of and have delivered. I think on the other more personal side, I run retreats and leadership programs for women.

Very cool. Uh,

I have found within my own leadership journey that I didn't have as many role models as women - uh-huh. On the top, let's say. I think there is this stati- statistics that there is more like mark in the management team rather, uh, compared to other women. I, I don't know if it's mark, but, uh, compared to all the other women within management teams. Yeah. And I think we still have a long way to go when it comes to equality and women in leadership roles. Yeah. Not only in businesses, but also in government and so forth. Yeah. So in my personal life, I also try to inspire, um, and empower women -

That's awesome.

In that

Sense. And, and for people that wanna learn more about that, where can they go and find that?

The name of the program is Unmute.

Unmute.

So if you just put Unmute in Google Leadership, uh, you will, uh, find it if I did well in my SEO, but, uh. <laugh>

That's awesome. Super cool. And with that, I think we're done. There we go. Thank you so much. You've been very generous with your time and your smarts and, uh, I'm sure we'll have a lot of knowledge bombs for, for our audience. So thank you so much.

I'm here to serve. Yeah.

Thank

You for having me.

Yeah. Super nice. Um, before we turn off the cameras, if this conversation got you curious about how to think about your brand and what's working and what's not, and maybe figuring out the plan for how to take it to the next level, that's what we do at Your Majesty, where we help companies from startup all the way up to enterprise kind of distill their vision into the most important pieces and then bring them to life across brand experience, digital products, and marketing systems. So you can learn more about that at the yourmajesty.co or also visit infinum.com. If you wanna get the next delivered episode in your feed, you can subscribe to the show wherever you find your podcast or subscribe on YouTube and also catch up at infinum.com/delivered for all the transcripts and the show notes and we leave links to unmute and those things in there.
And with that, hope to see you in the next episode.