The TakeAway
We are committed to guiding believers in developing a closer relationship with Jesus by exploring the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse. Our podcast is intended to provide a deeper comprehension of God's word and serve as a tool for sharing with others.
Creating the content we offer for free requires a significant amount of time and resources. We rely on supporters like you to help us reach as many people as possible. Please consider partnering with us today to assist us in reaching this lost world.
The TakeAway
Who Is Jesus—and How Can I Know I’m His?
What does it really mean that Jesus is the Word who was with God and is God? How can we reconcile our theological understanding with persistent feelings of spiritual darkness? And perhaps most importantly, how can we know if our faith is genuine?
These questions aren't just intellectual exercises—they touch the very heart of what it means to follow Christ. In this special Q&A episode, Pastor Harry Behrens is joined by Pastor Donnie Garrison and youth leader Brock Bridges to tackle the real, honest questions that believers struggle with daily.
Together, they explore the mystery of Christ's divinity, acknowledging that the concept of the Trinity inherently challenges human understanding. As they discuss, this very complexity testifies to God's transcendence—if we could fully comprehend God, wouldn't that suggest a human-made deity rather than the Creator of all things?
For those feeling stuck despite believing in Jesus as the light and life, the conversation offers a powerful perspective: this struggle doesn't mean you're far from God—it often means He's inviting you deeper. The light of Jesus isn't an instant switch but more like a steady dawn that gradually illuminates your life as you continue bringing your real struggles to Him.
The discussion culminates in practical wisdom about assurance of salvation. Beyond emotional experiences, true transformation reveals itself when sin becomes uncomfortable, when you find yourself fighting against darkness rather than comfortable living in it. As Jesus said, genuine faith involves denying yourself and taking up your cross daily—not just acknowledging Christ's existence but submitting to His lordship.
If you've been wrestling with questions about your faith, this conversation offers both theological depth and practical guidance to help you grow in your relationship with Christ. Your doubts don't disqualify you—they might be the very doorway to deeper faith.
Please visit www.chosenbydesign.net for more information on Pastor Harry’s new book, "Chosen By Design - God’s Purpose for Your Life."
The Gospel of John opens with a profound truth In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Over the past three episodes of the Takeaway, we've seen that Jesus is the Eternal Word through whom all things were made, that he is the life and light of men and that he gives the right to become children of God. These truths are the foundation of our faith, but they also raise real, honest questions in the hearts of believers today. That's why, in this special episode, pastor Harry Behrens is joined by two guests to wrestle with the questions sent in by listeners, questions about who Jesus is, what it means to be born of God and how we can know if our faith is real. This is a chance to lean in, to listen and to grow as we explore together what it means to truly know Christ. Here's Pastor Harry Behrens with today's discussion.
Speaker 2:Hello, welcome again to the Takeaway. I'm your host, pastor Harry Behrens, and today we're trying something new, something I believe will help us grow together as we study God's Word. You know, over the last three episodes we've laid the foundation of John's Gospel. We've seen that Jesus is the eternal Word, that he is life and light and that he gives the right to become children of God. These are powerful truths, but they naturally raise questions, questions about who Jesus really is, what it means to be born again and how we can know if our faith is genuine.
Speaker 2:So in this episode, we're stepping away from our usual verse-by-verse teaching to have an open discussion around some of those questions. My hope is that this format will not only bring clarity, but also equip you to live out the calling God has placed on your life to glorify Him in everything. So to help me with this conversation, I'm joined by my good friend, pastor Donnie Garrison, and also Brock Bridges, who is here to help bring a fresh perspective and the voice of many young adults walking out their faith. Together, we're going to tackle some of the questions you've sent in, and I think you'll find them both relatable and challenging. So let's begin.
Speaker 3:So, donnie, Brock, how are you guys doing today Doing? Great Thanks for having us. I'm really excited to get into these questions, kind of get into the mind of what might be going on in a young adult's mind and kind of answer some of those questions for us.
Speaker 2:Awesome. What about you, Donnie? How are you?
Speaker 4:doing. I'm doing very well. I really appreciate you having us on today. I think this is a very, very important topic to speak on it is.
Speaker 2:I'm really excited about getting into this, brock. What kind of things have you seen? I mean before we get into all this like this is why I had you on here with the young adults what kind of challenges have you seen around new believers and the challenges of them coming to faith and trusting in God and stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to like identity issues. I think a lot of them absorb their identity because they're a young adult and the world puts so much pressure on them in how much money they're making, what job they have currently, what they're doing in life, and I think that that just causes us to put a schedule on ourselves, when Jesus has something completely better and greater for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now, donnie, you work with young adults, right, I do. Yeah, maranatha, do you come across? What kind of stuff do you come across?
Speaker 4:Well, most of the time what I come across is I have teenagers come to me and they ask me how do I know that I'm saved right if I continue to still have these desires that are ungodly? And I try to explain to them you know what the Bible says about that that it's not normal for them, it's a normal experience for us to still struggle with that. But they struggle with that because they feel as though they should be, I guess, doing a certain thing and living a certain way, and that that part of us shouldn't be there anymore. You know the part that desires to do what's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we can agree too. There is a the dynamic. There's a very big difference between how children, young adults and mature adults understand the topic of salvation. Right, like we're all in different places and like I know for me just recently had an interaction with a young man who was probably 10 years old, who understood. He had clearly been told that Jesus died on the cross and he died for our sins. And he asked me the question he goes, but why did he need to die on the cross? Which was so profound, you know? And I thought, wow, that's a really tricky question. It's like if I was talking to an adult, I would explain it clearly. We could sit there and bounce the questions and break it down, but with a child you're just like. I feel like you have one sentence to really relay what you're trying to say. I mean, would you agree with that? Even with young adults? Do you feel like you have a very short window of how to bring that across?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was going to say, attention span nowadays is not great and there's a statistic out there. I think it's like you only remember 40% of what you're told. But I think that a lot of young adults, just if you don't get to the point quick, they kind of lose traction. They're not willing to sit there for, you know, hours on end. I mean some of them, you know you have the the 1% out there who are willing, but, um, a lot of them want short, quick, sweet answers that get to the point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, donnie, you find the same thing. Kids you work with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I find that what really works best with them is, uh, an illustration, something that they can, you know, wrap their mind around from everyday life and you tie it back into the answer so that they can visualize it.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, analogies are super huge. Um, analogies really help the mind of a young adult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you guys think if this show goes beyond 15 minutes, we're going to lose this audience?
Speaker 3:Probably not If they're here, they're already willing to commit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, would you agree that, whether kids, young adults or adults, that really what we're looking for is people seeking God, absolutely, people with the heart to like I want to know. They're giving you that attention, making that eye contact. But, yeah, I mean, we clearly deal with people who want to know but, like you said, they have that attention span but they want to know, but they don't I don't know how to really say it they don't have that seeking heart, they're not willing to do the work. Does that make sense? You run into that a lot, brock.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sometimes, Sometimes there's just kind of that vague curiosity of like, oh, let me just come in here and see what this is about and see if it's something I like. And a lot of times it's those people who either dive really deep into it and they get that heart of seeking or they just completely say like, ah, this isn't for me. And I think that that vague curiosity can actually be turned off by a lot of questions. People who don't want to get inquisitive, people who don't want to figure stuff out, tends to be the people who stray away.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, like I said, I know my ministry. I deal mostly with adults. I mean even my listeners with my podcast, I mean the bulk of my listeners are anywhere in the age group of like 40 to 60. And, again, that's why it's awesome to have you guys on here to try to tap into that younger generation, because we're talking about real things here, things that really matter, but we want to get that across in a way that they can understand it and apply it to their lives, which I think is probably the biggest thing, is bringing application. It's one thing to believe it, it's another thing to apply it. Right, yeah, right. And I think kids, more than anything, people who are still in school, they got those influences probably the hardest place to apply those things I would agree.
Speaker 2:Um, so you know, I think. With that said, I think we could start to get into this. So we're going to do something a little different. Today we have some questions from our audience based on the first three shows that I've released so far this year that really lay the foundation of our faith who Jesus is, who he claims to be, and all these things and I'm going to read these questions.
Speaker 2:So this is a great way for our audience to interact with us. It's something our church does. We have a small home church group and we dialogue a lot, just like I know you guys do with Underground Church. There's that back and forth dialogue. It's huge, and one thing that had always bothered me with the podcast was like, where's that dialogue? I could sit here and assume what the audience wants to hear, but it's a different thing when we know what the audience wants to hear. So we have those questions today and I think it's just going to be great to break them down. So I want to start off with the first question. It's right here. So I get that Jesus is the Word and that he was with God in the beginning, but I guess I'm struggling to wrap my head around what that really means. Like, is he God or is he just kind of like God? I'm confused. So, donnie, what do you think about that?
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, I can understand where they're coming from, because there's a lot of different religions that call him a God right, but not God. But when you look into the scriptures you see that, like you just said in John, that he is the Word right, he was in the beginning with God. He is God and all things were created by him, showing his divine role as creator right. And I think the key is when you look down in the chapter, you see that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. So God became a man in Jesus Christ and lived in flesh, and I think that's the key is to understand and comprehend that.
Speaker 4:But what we struggle with and I know as well, I still do, even as a Christian man now is we get these thoughts in our brain right that are not biblical, because there's lots of things that we don't know about the Bible and we have to understand that lots of the thoughts that we think and that we hear from other people aren't based on truth. So we have to take what we know to be truth from the Word of God and search it out and apply that to our life, as opposed to listening to other ideas of what other people say so. I don't know what you think, brock, but what do you?
Speaker 3:think I would completely agree with that. I would just say like in short, my answer would be that Jesus is just a physical manifestation of God and his character. Jesus, the way he lived his life, really showed God's character and God's heart for his people and for people who were not part of the Jewish people. You know, paul says that there is no slave, no Gentile, nor Jew, no free Us as people. We are all under God. We're all seeking something out. We're all we all. Cs Lewis says we have that God-shaped hole in our heart that we try and fill with these other things when really Jesus wants himself to be in that place.
Speaker 2:Jesus wants himself to be in that place. Yeah, I think this is a great question. I think about my own walk here, for instance, and maybe you guys can relate. You can say to this but when I first became a believer, even before I became a believer, when I first heard about Jesus, the concept and even scripture can seem confusing to somebody new, right Before you really start digging into the theology, and I think even somebody who's been doing this for 20-plus years now I'm still like this is a hard concept.
Speaker 2:The Father, son, holy Spirit, three different individuals, one God. It goes against the human flesh. The way we think it's like it doesn't make sense. You know it's like one plus one. Plus one equals one. It doesn't. You know it doesn't one. It doesn't compute, it doesn't add up. So we struggle with it and what we have is God telling us who he is and then us struggling with that identity. But he's God. And first I would have to say, if we didn't struggle with the identity of God, is he God Right? He should be bigger than us, he should be outside of our understanding. It should be complex Because I think, if you could wrap your mind around it, then it almost points to the fact that it's a man-made God. Yeah, right, because if I could figure out God? Right, wait, jesus is the son of God, but he is God, so he's his own son.
Speaker 2:You see how weird that kind of gets and I think that is the question of like how do we decipher that? What do you run into at Underground with this? Does this come up often?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there's been a few conversations, especially a couple years back. We were going through the book of John and we were saying you know, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. Some people did have an issue and a struggle with understanding the concept of the Trinity and what we ended up just kind of getting to the bottom of was just like again, god is so complex that we might not understand it and that we really just have to point towards His glory, like His godhood, who he is, the complexity of His nature. But I think that the language of scriptures can sometimes get confusing for new believers and people trying to seek that out, seeing you know the Son of God or the Son of man and trying to just understand from a human perspective what that means when it's not in human perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely confusing. I think that's the first part. Right Is first, realize that we're talking about God, who is defining himself to his creation. And you know, it's like trying to explain to a Rolex it's creator. It can't be understood. You know it's like I don't know, I'm a watch and I'm just you, you, you kind of, whatever you want to articulate it, as the idea is that the thing that's created can really never understand the thing that created it.
Speaker 2:But with that, when we look at Jesus, for instance and I think it's really important that we try to define this before we move on to the next question, because I really want our listeners to understand Jesus as the Son, but also as God and I think Hebrews 1.3 really gives us one of the clearest ideas of this. It says he is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint and I think this is the key right here is the exact imprint of his nature. This is not talking about him in the flesh. This isn't his flesh, his tent that Paul called it, that he was wearing because that was his humbling. We were told that he humbled himself and became flesh, but the full nature of God, his character, his attributes, existed in him.
Speaker 2:We can't say that about ourselves. We can't say that I have all of God's perfect attributes in me. The sin has divided me from that. My attributes are broken from God. I don't live for God, I live for self in a broken way. Jesus lived perfectly for God's will. So you have the radiance of God and then the triune God, the Father, son, holy Spirit. You have that perfect communion. Would you agree with that? They were in communion and that's why God didn't need anything before he created everything. He was in perfect communion with himself and I love it was J Vernon McGee who said the father planned it, the son paid different ways, like the husband and wife relationship that Paul talked about in Ephesians, that the wife submits to the husband Not that she's less than, but she has a role and the husband has a role and those roles work together for one common thing. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I think it's John 14 or John 16. I'm not sure which chapter. I think it's John 14 or John 16, not sure which chapter. But when Jesus was talking to his disciples because their hearts are troubled, because he tells them he's going away, and he tells them I will not leave you orphans, I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you. And he's talking about the Holy Spirit. So literally he says I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you, but in another personality the Holy Spirit. So you see, when you read that, you got to be able to just say you know what, like my brother Brock was saying over here, it's not something I can comprehend understand with this human brain. It's a matter of God said it, I believe it, I trust it. It's faith.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, yeah, that does come down to faith at the end of the day, like you just have to take it for what it is and not try to understand it. I mean, you can try, but you're going to be trying for a really long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think at the end of the day we have to take the Word of God for what it says. And Jesus says he was truth, right, that he is God, he was from God. And it seems again contradiction like a contradiction, but you have to accept it that at the end of the day, like Hebrews 1, 3 says, he is the radiance of the glory of God, like in Christ, he becomes like, god becomes relatable in Jesus. That's what it means he humbled himself in Jesus. That's what it means he humbled himself.
Speaker 2:In the Old Testament we have all these expressions of God's character, this all-powerful, supernatural being that was unrelatable. You couldn't touch him, you couldn't come near to him. Look at even Moses. God, I want to see your glory, god's like. I can't show you my glory, you'll die. I can't come close to you. But now we're told that in the face of Jesus he has come close to us and it's not that, like today, Jesus walks into our house in a physical body because his spirit lives in us. But when we look back to the cross, when we look back to his life, we see the radiance, a relatable person that we can look to, and we see the radiance of God's character in that person and then we can touch it. That's why, john, I love John's analogies. Well, they're not even analogies. I mean, he said he's like I touched, I seen, I was with, I experienced. You know, he was there with Jesus from the beginning of his ministry to the end. I think that's the beauty of it is like we have this historic record of a person who is the radiance of God, not somebody who pretended to be God, and I think that's uh.
Speaker 2:Before we move on to the next question that would be the last thing is like some people have heard this, some people haven't, but either Jesus was a liar, he was a crazy man, or he was who he said he was. Like there's no envy, there's no where else you can go with it, right, we know he was a real person, his story in a debate. So really it comes down to he couldn't have just been a good person, because then he would have been a liar, because he claimed to be God, which is the whole reason they wanted to kill him. Is that not why he was killed, right? That's that's clear. So then we're left with was he telling the truth? Was he a liar, meaning he knew what he was lying about or was he crazy, meaning he really believed what he was saying and it was a lie?
Speaker 2:But that's what the resurrection proves, isn't it the resurrection? And people say, yeah, but you can't prove the resurrection. Why could it? If you look at the thousands or millions of martyrs over the last 2,000 years, why did the ones that followed him, who knew him and walked with him, die for him? Look at Paul the Apostle. I think Donnie would you agree. Paul the Apostle is probably one of the best examples in Scripture we have of somebody's drastic conversion. This guy was killing and arresting Christians. He had the authority and the right and then was converted on the road to Damascus and then, all of a sudden, he switched sides. I was just explaining that today I think it was to you, brock right, it was like you're in a battle, you're on the winning side, you're on the front lines, we're winning the battle, we're destroying the enemy, and then, on the front lines, you just pause, hand your gun over and switch sides and join the losing side. Apparently that doesn't make sense, none.
Speaker 4:Not from a human perspective.
Speaker 2:But that's what.
Speaker 4:Paul did.
Speaker 3:Right. That's the power of God. It took a God-seeing experience for him to have to change his ways Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And Paul's life. I mean, Paul worked what 70% of the New Testament we have, and most of which was written while he was in prison for Christ. Yes, he often called himself a Paul, a prisoner of Christ, a slave to Christ, you know, and not complaining about it, he realized that that was ordained by God for purpose and that his life radiated God's glory in that sense because he was showing that Christ is who he says he is. He is God in the flesh. Otherwise and Paul makes also the same statement if Jesus didn't raise from the dead, we are, of all people, the most pitied, Miserable, and that's what else.
Speaker 2:What other evidence do you need that Christians are willing to die? And essentially, I love this. It makes us just like Christ, because either he is who he says he is and who we're dying for is true, or we're either lying about who he says he is, which is kind of crazy, or we're crazy and we believe the lie Right. Do you see how it lines up with the exact same thing and people have to rectify that in their own minds. There's no in-between. He can't be a good person. He is either God in the flesh he was a crazy person or he was a liar, and people don't die for lies.
Speaker 2:They don't get crucified upside down for lies?
Speaker 3:no way doesn't they're not gonna.
Speaker 4:You know, sit around and come up with a plan, you know. You know what? Let's, uh, let's go tell everybody that jesus rose from the grave right, and then, when they find out, they'll kill it if it's not real.
Speaker 2:They're not gonna do guys, guys guys, this is the best prank ever. We're gonna tell a lie and the outcome is nobody's gonna laugh.
Speaker 4:If it's not real, they're not going to do that, Guys, guys guys, this is the best prank ever.
Speaker 2:We're going to tell a lie and the outcome is nobody's going to laugh at it, they're going to kill us. And then everybody signs up yeah, let's do that. That sounds like a great plan. It's crazy. So, anyway, let's move on to the next question. So let's get into some experiential stuff here. So the next question is you talked about Jesus being the life and the light, and I want that, but honestly, I feel more stuck than free most days, like I'm still in the dark. What am I missing? So, brock, why don't you go with this one?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think a big thing that we kind of get caught up on with our either, like even new believers. You know experienced believers, you know people on the meat and potatoes. What happens a lot of time is we focus so hard on the sin, we focus so hard on the dark areas of our life that we don't leave any room for Jesus to shine. I think that a lot of times we will put ourselves down, hold up this standard that we believe we have to make, but again, that's almost anti-gospel. We don't need to hold any standard because the grace that Jesus has given us covers it all. Will our spirit lead us into the correct path and the morally righteous path? Yes, but there is no more standard. There is no more law that we're underneath, there is no more being dead in our sin. We are made righteous by the grace of God and that grace alone.
Speaker 2:Donnie, what about you? What would you say to somebody that feels like I believe, but I feel stuck and struggling with this?
Speaker 4:I think a lot of that comes down to making sure that you're receiving his, you know his life daily, like spending time with him every single day and not just walking out there on your own every day. Because the more you walk out on your own and you don't spend time with the Lord, then it gets hard, right, and you find yourself stuck in sin and it's easier for you to turn to sin. And I think that feeling stuck doesn't mean you're far from God, but it often means that he's inviting you deeper. Right, the light of Jesus isn't just a sudden switch. Right, you know, we grow in our walk with God. Right, lots of times it's a steady dawn, it comes like a sunrise. Right, and freedom grows as you keep bringing your real self, your real struggles and your doubts and failures to him. The more you surrender, the more his spirit makes space for peace and life inside of you. Right, so don't measure his work by how you feel in a moment. Right, because we can do that, because our feelings change just like this, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think that's the issue with our culture in particular. I can't speak for all cultures, but ours for sure is we live in an experiential culture. We want to experience the power, we want to experience good, we want to. We think that there should be this manifestation of something, um, like, okay, I can believe the facts, but then they we relate to. Well, how do I know I'm saved if I don't experience something profound? Yeah, right, yeah. And then when that doesn't happen, we start to doubt our own belief. So especially I think with young adults, again, like where's their struggle at in this? Like where do they struggle from facts to experience? Like where's the boundary in that?
Speaker 3:Oh man, to experience.
Speaker 3:Like, where's the boundary in that, oh man? I think that the biggest determining factor of that is just time spent in the word. You know, I think that a lot of times what we have as young adults is just this idea that when we go into a space that is meant to seek out Jesus, that we seek out our own version of Jesus, depending on whatever our life circumstances. So we'll go into it wanting and expecting a truth, and then when reality doesn't meet that expectation, it's kind of disheartening. So I think that the time spent in the Word is a huge one in order to find out the truth of who God is and what he is going to do in your life, not what you want from him in your life. You know, it says that the father gives his children good things, you know, and the things that you want in life you know, ask and pray about it, and Jesus says that he will give them to you. But I think that that's just what it comes down to when you think about the fact versus the imagination.
Speaker 2:It's recently, a few weeks ago, I had a talk with my son. We were in church and I was talking about the joy of the Lord. And I had a talk with my son afterwards. He's, you know, in his early 20s and I said you know, you look like you're struggling. He's like I am. He's like Dad, I don't understand that joy you're talking about. Like, he believes, he understands the facts and the theology behind it, but he didn't understand how to connect the theology to the experience. He was like I, like I think they want that experience, right, it's desperately.
Speaker 2:And isn't that what we all want? I mean, let's be real, we all want joy. That's what this world is seeking. That's why we live in a materialistic world. People are seeking joy. They're seeking to please themselves.
Speaker 2:And Jesus says that in me is the fullness of joy, joy that will never leave you. It will satisfy you. You drink of this cup and you'll never thirst again. You'll get what your soul desires in its completeness. You'll find what you were created for. I explained it to my son.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean abandoning everything you do in this life, like to become a monk, you know, and be like oh, that's the only way. That's not what it's saying it's invite Jesus into every area of your life. If you're buying a house, if you're buying a car, if you're getting married, all your relationships, your financial problems, your job, whatever it is, invite Jesus into it. And the thing is, we have to open up because we're looking for this magic God. I think this is what most people are looking for Superhero syndrome. Right, we're looking for the God who flies through the air and does all these miracles and everything. But, honestly, the God that we live for is the God that wants to sit and eat with us. He wants to dine with us. He goes if I knock and you answer, I'll come in and dine with you. That's a subtle small thing, and he just wants to be in the room with us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would want to say and kind of add this in too it's you know, God doesn't sit there and say in the word, like, oh, I'm going to take all your burdens away, I'm going to take all your anxiety. Well, he does actually invite you to give that up to him, but he doesn't say that I'm just going to take away everything that you're going to go through in life. He's not. He's not saying I'm going to give you the perfect life You're going to live happily ever after. He says I'm going to sit with you in all of this suffering. Cast it upon me, give it to me. I'm going to sit here and be with you in this, and you have to put your faith and trust in me in order to get through it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think one of the biggest things people need to comprehend and it comes from time is like there was a guy I was listening to. He was talking to his pastor and he said do you know that there are so many galaxies of stars and billions and billions of stars? And it was said that if you add up all the words that human beings speak, it still doesn't equal the amount of stars that are out there that we have never seen, right, and the seas, like the fish down at the bottom of the sea, that we'll never see, that we can't explore. He said in the book of Job I think it's chapter 39, god tells Job that he causes it to rain and the sun to shine and the grass to grow on a land that no man will ever see.
Speaker 4:And he asked this pastor. He said why would God do that? What's the purpose of that? Because he had this mindset that everything is about us, that we're at the center of the story, so that why would God do something that we can't explore, that we can't see? And the point was God didn't make it for you, he made it for himself. Right, we're not the center of the story. So when we get to this point in our walk with God that we understand the story isn't about me, it's about him right and his glory, whatever brings him the most glory, then I can say Lord, whatever happens in my life, lord, I submit to that because I know you're doing it to get the most glory out of me and out of it.
Speaker 2:And I think there's something I want to catch with that, because that right there stings people. They don't want to hear that they were created for somebody else's joy and pleasure, somebody else's glory, and it's like well, what about me? Because inside of us then something screams like you deserve to be happy. Well, that's because we live in a culture that screams you deserve to be happy. So everything's thrown at us and the reality is like that is a God-given desire.
Speaker 2:I've really pressed in on this lately with people is there's John Piper talks about this and I think it's beautiful. It's like we could be selfish for joy if it's placed in the right spot. And Jesus says you know what you could be selfish for in the right spot. And Jesus says you know what you could be selfish for my joy? Like you can have the fullness of my joy. That's why I love John's chapter 14, 15 and 16 as this sermon where Jesus talks about you ask and you will receive. And everybody seems to know that Like ask anything in Jesus name and you'll be given. I was like you know it's only half the sentence, it's a couple of verses. But I was like in chapter 14, I was like what's the other half of the sentence so that my father is glorified in the son. There's a complete context. There is that ask to glorify God and it will be given to you. And then in the next chapter he reiterates it again. He goes ask anything in my name that you may bear much fruit.
Speaker 2:Well, why Is that contradictory to the first statement? The first statement? No, because he completes it in the next chapter when he says ask anything in my name that the Father may be glorified in the fruit that you bear and you will have the fullness of my joy. So he brings all three together. He connects them all. Our joy is found in glorifying the Father. It's not found in seeking the joy and then I'll be happy and then I can experience God. No, he's like experience God, live for his glory. Glory, and he'll give you his joy. It doesn't come from this world and that is what allows us to live through the trials and tribulations with joy.
Speaker 2:And that's the hard part. This is what people don't want to hear. It's like wait a minute, I'm signing up to be a Christian here. I believe it to be true, but I have to live through trials and tribulations. I was like yeah, as a matter of fact, jesus promised you you would. It wasn't like you might have trials and tribulations in this world. He's like by the way, if you follow me I mean he uses the statement pick up your cross and follow me. Like that is, that's harsh. Like what would you say to a young person who says what does that look like?
Speaker 4:I mean, like, when you were just speaking, I was thinking of a scripture that goes along with what you were saying in Philippians, where it says that not only was it given to you, on behalf of Christ, to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake. Right, and that's speaking of believing as a privilege. God gave you that belief, right, but he also gives you the privilege to suffer for him. It's a privilege. God gave you that belief, right, but he also gives you the privilege to suffer for him. It's a privilege that's an oxymoron to his inner mind. Right, it's a privilege for God to allow me to suffer so that he can be glorified as I continue to lift him up and serve him and bring him glory in my suffering. Yeah, and that makes him look even greater. Right, and again, why?
Speaker 2:would. I want to do that Right? Wait a minute. I want to suffer to make him look better. Why?
Speaker 4:Because that brings you joy right, that gives you that joy, and that's the.
Speaker 2:that's the part that's confusing for people. Yeah Right, and that's where faith kicks in. Not a joy you can have without faith. You have to believe his word and you have to act upon it. The joy is the last part, but here's the best part, I know for us here in this room, I think we can all say yes to this. I know I can for sure. Once you've experienced that joy that way, you can't stop seeking it.
Speaker 4:It's the greatest drug there is.
Speaker 2:It really is You're like on this crazy high and then people look at you like you're a crazy person. You're like, what are you?
Speaker 3:talking about. I can give anecdotal evidence of that too. So you know, last summer I was thinking out to do a lot of missions work and I was doing so. I had sought out to do a missions trip to Alaska, I had sought out to do a missions trip to Belize, and then on top of that I was doing four weeks at a summer camp that I volunteer at. And so you know, when the verse says, you know to ask in his name and it will be given, to glorify the father or to bear much fruit, you know there was a financial need for that missions trip, and so you know I'd prayed about it a ton and I was missing for both, collectively about, I think, $900. And money just started to come in from random sources, uh, and random people donating on my behalf, um, thank God I was able to go on both the missions trips fully funded. Um, and so you know, in Alaska I was a camp counselor.
Speaker 3:In Belize we were just doing kind of like a project mission of building bunk beds and handing out food to a community and, um, creating ties with the local church. But throughout all of that and throughout the other four weeks of the camp, everybody had looked at me as I was making travels between home and the next mission trip and home and the camp, like how are you doing all this and not getting burnt out? How are you doing all this and not getting tired? And the entire time even though it was a struggle because Belize was hot in the middle of July Belize is 90 something with 90 percent humidity it was hot at the camp that I volunteer at.
Speaker 3:We take in a lot of troubled kids from different areas, different cities, you know, mainly just inner city places Philly, newark, patterson, irvington, a whole lot Philly, newark, patterson, irvington, a whole lot, um. And those kids curse at you and they disrespect you all day and they just um, continually, just give you a problem. But the more that you shine and reflect Jesus into their life, the more that you make that impact and the more joy that God gives you in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We, we would go through persecution and go through suffering, um, not because we're Christians, but just because that's the behavior. But through that I received a lot of joy and I came back spiritually super, super fulfilled. Physically I was tired, but I had the joy of the Lord in my heart the whole summer and on the way back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the great example of that and I think most, if not all, of our listeners will understand this part. We've all done things we've enjoyed and we can't get enough of it. You know, whether you love video games, table tennis, soccer, golf, doesn't matter what it is, but when you love it, really love it and enjoy it. And that's the point the joy, through the pain, like I've been injured golfing from golfing too much, because I enjoy it. My joy took me to the place of suffering and even pushing through the suffering because I enjoyed it so much. And that's our life with Christ. When we receive that joy and it's a joy that surpasses all understanding we can't begin to comprehend one. How am I getting this? Just because I'm living a life. That's our suffering, our suffering best reflects a life lived for Christ, because the joy this is how the father, I think, is getting the glory Our joy is radiating out of our suffering and the world looks upon that and says that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense, like that's. No, I could not do that. I, who could do that? I would curse this, I would curse that and I would curse this. I would curse that and I would fight to get out of that.
Speaker 2:And then we, as believers who are genuinely satisfied in Christ, like Paul, we go into our chains joyfully, we pick up our cross joyfully, we go into the lion's den joyfully, or we go into the pit of fire joyfully, you know, and it doesn't make sense. And then, when God shows up and this is where the miraculous happens, you want to talk about the experience, which is what we're talking about. The experience doesn't come to satisfy our belief. It becomes because of our belief. We've already believed and we move in faith and, like I always love Shadrach, meshach and Abednego. They're like you know, our God is able to save us from the fire, but if he doesn't, who cares? Like we'll go anyway.
Speaker 2:They had a joy and, like Paul, to die is to gain but to live is for Christ. He was like kill me. He's like you're doing me a salad, put me out of this world. I know where I'm going, but you don't have the authority to do that. Even Jesus says you don't have the authority to take my life. He goes, I take my own life, I lay it down and I take it up again. And Jesus tells us to put our trust in that, to trust in him. We don't even have the authority to put our own life down. That's the point. So we can joyfully go to those places and just say, if it's my time, I know the good that's coming from it, and if it's not, I know that my Lord is able to save me from it. So that's the experience.
Speaker 2:So with that, I want to go on to then the next question, which is about assurance. So we see, you guys said being born of God isn't something we do, but something he does. So how do I know if that's actually happened to me? Like, is there something I should feel or look for? Brock, what do you think?
Speaker 3:no-transcript. When I was just living life, um, you know, apart from Christ, I would go and do things that were, you know, not morally upright, not morally, um, at a righteous standard, and I just think, oh, I'm just having fun, I'm just doing my thing, I'm doing what I want to do, um, and I'm living my life. And now, as I reflect back on those things, I think, like man, that was really messed up. You know, I did those things to those people and that was kind of mean. So I think that when the spirit comes to dwell within you, you understand and realize how dead in your sin you were, how glorified God is by you living that righteously and by allowing him to sanctify you, and then also just understanding the grace that is given to you for those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Yes, the evidence. It's one of these things. Like I know, I've been a believer a while Donnie has. How long have you been a believer for Brock?
Speaker 3:I had been raised in church but I had gotten out of it for a few years and I never really took my faith seriously until about end of 22. So we're coming up on three years.
Speaker 2:So if you really took that short period of time. So I know for Donnie and I we've had time to build that assurance and it is right. It's a continual building of assurance. It's not a one-time thing where you're like, oh, I have assurance and then, and then I'm good and I don't need that anymore, but because of the flesh because, and then I'm good and I don't need that anymore, but because of the flesh, because of the sin that continues to dwell in us. I think we do need continual assurance and that's one thing our listeners are looking for. And 2 Corinthians 5.17 says if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. And I want to talk about that a little bit because there should be evidence. There should be some evidence of the difference of who we are, not of our own doing. So, donnie, I think of Nicodemus John, chapter 3, where Jesus talks about being born again. Can you take that story and relate it a little bit and what Jesus is talking about in the born-again process?
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, when he tells Nicodemus that we have to understand who Nicodemus is, right, nicodemus is the ruler of the Sadducees, right? So he was the top dog, right? So he's the guy that had all the degrees, all the certificates, he had the robes, right, he had everything on the wall in his office. Everybody went to him because he knew the law, right. And Jesus was telling him right, you must be born again.
Speaker 4:And so Nicodemus, he doesn't understand what he's talking about. But what is he really saying? He's telling Nicodemus your first birth, what did you do to take part in that right? And Nicodemus, he doesn't understand. Like that's what he's really saying to him. But the question is what did you really do in your first birth? What did you do? Did you think about you know, when you were born? Did you ask to be born in Millville? Did you ask to be born with brown eyes? Yeah, nothing. You did nothing to be born the first time. And what he's telling them is the second time, to be born again, to be born of God. There's nothing you can do.
Speaker 2:He's relating the two, he's bringing them together, not separating them.
Speaker 4:So you could take all of your degrees and all the stuff that you've learned and go have a bonfire with it, because you're not making it to heaven based on what you do. It's what I do and that's what he's telling him there. You must be born again, and it's something I do, and he's actually prior to chapter 3, we see Nicodemus and John and John.
Speaker 2:Chapter 1, verses 12 to 13,. It says we were born not of blood nor of the will of man, but of God. Yes, that was the point. There's no inheritance. You didn't inherit this because of the bloodline that you come from. You aren't a prince that is lined up to be the next king. There's no inheritance. Your parents are Christians, so therefore you're Christians.
Speaker 2:It doesn't work that way. Not of blood nor of the will. Meaning you didn't decide this, right? You didn't like one day wake up and be like I'm willing myself to be a child of God. Today, right, I decide, I figured this out. He's saying no, he goes, but of God, but of God. Yes, but of God. And Paul reiterates that in Ephesians 2, and he says that so that we can't boast. There's nothing to boast about, because it's for the glory of God, and if you did anything in it, then you got something to boast about. So if this is true and this is what our listeners want to—and this is where the conflict really becomes, because people start to feel the unfairness here and this is why people love free will. They like this free will because, you know, I can't accept the fact that somebody else isn't saved, like that's not fair. So, donnie, let's talk about that real quick, because I think that's really important for our listeners to understand. Is it fair that God would separate?
Speaker 4:people like that. Well, the Bible never says anything about fair. When talking about God, it calls him just right. So we have to ask the question is God just in what he does? Right? And of course he's just in everything that he does. But the key to understanding the whole situation is understanding that human beings aren't set on a neutral position. Right, all of us are sinners by nature, and what are we deserving of? Right, we deserve to go to hell.
Speaker 2:We deserve God's wrath.
Speaker 4:We deserve his wrath and his justice. So if God decided to send everybody to hell, is he fair? Absolutely he's fair, because that's what we deserve. So if God decides to show mercy to some right, is he unfair to the rest that he didn't show mercy to? No? Mercy is not something you deserve. It's something that is chosen by God to be given to you. So if God chooses to save five and not save the other five, they're only getting justice. They're not getting something that's unfair. They're still getting what they deserve, right. That's right. And the people that get mercy, they're getting something they don't deserve, right. So, like John MacArthur used to say, he said you don't want fair, you want mercy.
Speaker 2:That's the truth. Right, that is the truth.
Speaker 4:Romans 9,. What does it say? It says that I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and whom I will, I will harden. It's simply God's choice to do what he wants with his own creation and we have to be okay with that.
Speaker 2:In our mind. It's hard for us to be okay with that and that's why people make the image of God out of the image of man. It's man making the image of God, not allowing God to say who he is Like. We don't want that kind of God, Like in our and that's our sinful nature, broken from the character of God, Like we don't want to accept who he says he is.
Speaker 2:I mean, how many times have we had discussions, Donnie, with people, either together with somebody or even with each other? And we've talked so many times about pointing clear scripture out where God says I am, I am, I am. Like you go into Isaiah, chapters 45, 46, 47. I said I love those chapters because God goes on a tyrant, I am, I am, I am, I am. And he's laying it out and we can point out clear, distinct things. And then to people like, oh, no, no, no, no, and then they go out of their way to explain those scriptures away because it confronts this idea that oh, no, no, no, God the big one is loving, right, how often does this come up in young adults? God is loving, and then they define what that means, not allowing God to define it. So how often do you see that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, all the time, I think that a lot of uh, and even just maybe even a younger age group too, they hear that you know God is love and that, um, you know his love comes before anything else and God loves you, and and that type of stuff. But I think that that just um, again, we're taking a God concept and we're using our human perspective to define it instead of just taking it for what it really is, as truth and um, a lot of these young adults will have this idea of like, oh well, if God loves me, he wouldn't do this. Or if God loves me, he wouldn't do that. Like, you don't know what God's love is over your life.
Speaker 2:Well, he killed his own son Right. Let's put that out there first.
Speaker 1:He nailed his son to a cross.
Speaker 2:you know Like. So what do you think you're getting Exactly? And he called that love. Yeah, and that love was mercy.
Speaker 3:That love was mercy on our soul and I think, to put an analogy to it, I think it was you that told me this, Harry, I think I know it was you that told me this, but there's a firing line and you're up against the wall and you're about to be shot upon. There's 10 of you and you know, as they're taking aim, getting ready to execute the 10, the general gets a call and he speaks some words over the phone. You and four other people get pulled out of line and then they execute the rest and you're sitting there like what, what happened, why? And the general is just like hey, somebody really loves you and wants you to be with them. So you got pulled out by mercy's sake. You know, a lot of people, unfortunately, have a hard time wrapping their head around that again, because it's just such a unexplainable concept. And again it just comes down to don't don't dive into that complexity, trying to figure out, because that's just who God is. It's his character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that well one it comes down. Donnie and I have talked a lot about this, the motive of God. Like so many people, I love asking this question. I've brought it up in my teachings and stuff. But why did God do all that he did? Why did he create the world? Why did he create us? And again people will talk about love, like he wanted beings talking about us to love him. But if you go to Acts, I forget which chapter it is 17, he says God wasn't needing anything. He didn't create us because he needed something. He was lacking something. So what was it God was doing? He was glorifying himself. We just had this discussion in church.
Speaker 2:Throughout scripture it is abundantly clear and I would challenge anybody just take that word glory and just start reading your Bible, but be hypersensitive to the word glory. It is everywhere. Right, it's all over scripture. God did everything for his glory. Jesus made it abundantly clear. Just read the life of Jesus. Read his words.
Speaker 2:What does he say? He only did what glorified the Father. He lived for the Father's glory, he prayed for the Father's glory. His motive was glory. That was it, not love. Never did he say I'm doing this for the love of the Father. He had the Father's love, but he was doing this for glory.
Speaker 2:Love is a character. It's part of God is love, but that's not his motive. You know, out of his character he loves, but he so is glory. And I've always talked about the difference between will and desire. And this explains John chapter 3, 16, right, did God not? Did Jesus when he died on the cross? Was it not sufficient to save the whole world? It was Like that sacrifice was sufficient to save the whole world, but the whole world's not saved. So what's going on? Was it not sufficient or was it sufficient? That's what you have to ask the question. And people are like well, you have to choose to believe. But then you have to ask the question well, if unbelief can condemn me, then it wasn't sufficient, because then that means he couldn't save me from my unbelief.
Speaker 4:Right, that means he missed sin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you understand that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a logical question.
Speaker 2:Right, it is, and so it had to be satisfactory. So then, if it was satisfactory and not all are saved, where does that leave you? It leaves you with the literal interpretation of Scripture that he saved the elect yes, that was the point those whom he chose before the foundations of the world, ephesians 1, verse 4. Love that verse. He chose you before the foundations of the world. And this is where people will start to argue oh well, he looked down the tunnels of time and saw what we would do. And then that shows God, like playing a video game on those, like his sovereignty is interweaving our choices. But it puts us at the head of the game, right, it puts our choices first, and then God having to manipulate through our choices to accomplish his will. But where do you see that context, especially when Jesus or the Father are explaining themselves personally? It's nowhere in Scripture. Nowhere context, especially when Jesus or the Father are explaining themselves personally. Never, it's nowhere in.
Speaker 4:Scripture. Nowhere you will never see in Scripture where God looks down through the time and sees who will believe and elects them based on their choice. You will never see that. No, and the key to understanding the God sovereignty, why God saves, how God is fair and just whatever you want to call it and saving whom he wants it all boils down to understanding who we are and what we deserve. So if I say, oh wow, god will save those five people but then will not save these five, that's not fair. Where does that come from? That comes from my thoughts that I deserve something right. That's what makes it unfair. Because they deserve the opportunity right. But the key you got to go all the way back to the beginning Again. We all deserve hell.
Speaker 2:Ephesians chapter two, all that clear.
Speaker 4:None of us deserve the opportunity. It's simply the choice of God to show mercy on whom he will. I don't deserve anything. I have to live in that reality every day. I don't deserve to get up, I don't deserve to be able to wash myself, feed myself, have kids. I don't deserve any of it and I live in that reality.
Speaker 2:I want to point something out. I was hesitant to say it, but I feel like I have to because it's going to be one of these things that's going to have to be said multiple times. You saw, I just put a recent devotion out on why did Jesus need to die on the cross. It was from that young man who asked me that question and it was so profound it bothered me and I came to a simple answer. I want to say this first, before I really explain it. It's like if I could talk to that child again, I would say Jesus needed to die on the cross because he wanted to show us how beautiful God is. That's a simple, childlike answer. Now, from there you have to unpack it. Now I would let that child ask me well, how is that beautiful? And then I can expand on that. But it's a great answer because what God was doing, what Jesus was doing on that cross, he wasn't just dying for our sins, it was a result of him, but he was glorifying the Father. We saw that in the scriptures. He says he's doing this to glorify the Father fully.
Speaker 2:And what do you have at the cross? You have all of the attributes of God, the full character of God on display simultaneously. His justness, his mercy, his grace, his wrath is being poured out, but his grace and his mercy is being poured out simultaneously. He's dealing with sin. And then the beauty of this is and I want Christians to hear this, because I've met so many people that are happy just to be saved Like I'm saved, and this is that non-seeking mindset I'm saved and that's good enough. I'm saved and this is that non-seeking mindset I'm saved and that's good enough. Jesus didn't save you from sin to be good enough. He took you from the wrath of God, the full weight of it. It's as far separated as you can be. And he didn't just save you from that. He placed you on high, placed us with him in the heavenlies, like we are enthroned with him. We are co-heirs with Christ. That's what it means to be placed in Christ. So he didn't just like put us in heaven, he made us like to reign with him.
Speaker 2:That should be not understandable. In fact, I can't Like. I can accept it, I believe it, but I sure as heck don't deserve that. You want to talk about what I don't deserve, right? Right, it was like. No, it's like I deserve that wrath way more than I deserve to be seated on high with Christ Like you.
Speaker 2:Who can picture that Right? It's like taking the worst criminal in the world out of prison. You murdered a million people. Take this dude out, clean him up and make him Like who would do—what Doesn't make sense?
Speaker 2:No, but that's what God did and that is where his glory really shines through. It's shown through in Christ, because Christ shone that forward and this is where it shows through in us. His glory reflects off of that. We were that sinner and he took us. And his glory shines off of us in that grace and that mercy and it pours out because we are undeserving. So when the world looks at us, it's not like about fairness, like you talked about. This is about glory. God's motive is his glory. He's putting it on display and he says we were created for his glory. Not he was lacking right. We were created to radiate. We were reflecting.
Speaker 2:I said this just recently. I have to share this light. So where does color come from? When you think of things in this world and you look at your shirt and your table and you look at all these beautiful colors, you can say what color is that table, what color is your shirt and people will say colors and be like you know, but are they? If I turn the lights off, what color are they? Are they still that color? In the dark? They're only that color because the light is reflecting off of them.
Speaker 2:But it's not all the light Like just go look this up. It is a reflection of a part of the light spectrum. All the color that we see in this world is in the light spectrum, not in the object. That object absorbs the light and only reflects certain colors and that's what we see. So we're seeing the reflection of the light, not the color of the object. That color is inherently dark. It has no color in and of itself. It reflects the glory. That's what we do. So when somebody sees something of God in us, they're seeing a spectrum of it. We are glorifying him and what we were meant to do is look like Christ. Christ perfectly reflected the full light spectrum of God's glory. We reflect a fraction of it, but we are being sanctified from one glory to another and when we are seated in heaven with him, we will reflect the full glory of God. It doesn't radiate from us, it radiates off of us. How beautiful is that? And that points to what Paul said, that all creation proclaims the glory of God.
Speaker 2:I feel like, no matter where you look, you see that. So to sum up this question the assurance of my salvation is this One if you aren't worried about it, you're probably not saved. You don't even care, you don't even care, you don't even care. So stop worrying about what you can't worry about. And if you are worried about it and you want to be saved, you probably are because you desire it. So now the question is, and I think 1 John not the Gospel of John, but the first epistle of John really talks about the assurance of salvation. He talks about love. It's the epistle of love and everything. That's what we're looking for.
Speaker 2:Have you been changed? Talk about Nicodemus. You talk about being born again. What is different about you? What sound are you making different? Are you praising God? Are you studying the word? Are you loving people? Different? Did you give up the drugs? Did you give up the weed? Did you give up the alcohol? Did you give up the pornography? Like, are you fighting these things? It's not that you're perfect, but you don't like it on you anymore. You want the filth off and then the rest of your life you're going to learn that you can't get it off. It's there on you, but you're changed. You have a desire. You're no longer living in it and for it, yeah.
Speaker 4:I think the way I always put it when I'm talking to a lot of young folks is when they want to know, like, what's the evidence of my salvation, that I'm really saved? I said the biggest evidence I know for myself was sin wasn't comfortable anymore. It wasn't something I could just do and it was comfortable. It became uncomfortable for me. I would still do it, but I didn't like it. It wasn't comfortable.
Speaker 4:Your desires change, right, like you said, you become a new creation and you desire to honor God and when you displease God and you sin, it grieves you because you're grieving the spirit of God within you. So it's a total transformation. God gave us a new heart. Right, we're new creatures. Before we were sinners by nature, lived 100% that way. We were enslaved to it. He made us new. Now we desire the things of God and we grow right and it's just a constant battle and that's how you know you're saved. Because you're constantly battling it. You give in, you hate it, you repent. You say God, I'm not doing that anymore. Five days later you did it again. Whatever, that's basically what it is.
Speaker 4:But there's a fight.
Speaker 3:There's a war now, and Colossians 3 says set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. And then verse three goes on to say for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 3:So we sit here and again kind of points back to what I was saying earlier. We sit here and we focus so much on the wrong and we focus so much on our own strength and I'm actually I just spoke on this at Underground recently but we cannot lean on our own strength because we will always disappoint ourselves. And then we put that disappointment not within ourselves, we actually put that disappointment in God and we say, oh God, I disappointed you, I disappointed you, you're not disappointing him, you're disappointing yourself. Um and so trying to do it in our own strength, we're always going to fail, we're always going to not meet that standard.
Speaker 2:But if we allow ourselves to just shift our focus, shift our mindset onto what God has for us and how God is changing our life. If we allow ourselves to just shift our focus, shift our mindset onto what God has for us and how God is changing our life, if we set our mind on the things above, we will be hidden in Christ. Yeah, this is a phrase I just came up with yesterday. It's a phrase that's out there. I didn't invent this, it's just my words to it. We are not perfected in what we do. We are perfected in what he does. In what we do, we are perfected in what he does, and that's the beauty of it is what God is doing. Why do we continue to sin? Our assurance comes from this not in what we do, but in what he's doing, and that's where our joy comes from. We see him do good despite our sin. So why does he leave us in the state of sinful, in our sinful nature, here in this world? Well, it's the sanctification. But he's glorifying himself. He's showing how he is not just once and for all overcome sin, but he is continually overcoming sin. So he did overcome sin once and for all, but we are the evidence of that. It's already overcome, so you've already been forgiven, and the evidence is it plays out in your life, you sin, and this is why Paul says don't sin so that grace may abound. Right, he said that's ridiculous, basically, I think, because you're going to sin anyway. It's going to happen without you trying. So just let that be enough. Don't force it, you don't need to, and God will get the glory for it. That's why Paul says three times in Ephesians, chapter one, to the praise of his glorious grace. Like our role is praising him, our worship, our exaltation to him for the grace he pours out, which brings him the glory. And I think it's such a beautiful picture and it really we're going to wrap it up with this fourth question, which is it really comes off. The last one, it's the clarifying belief.
Speaker 2:This listener says sometimes I wonder, do I actually believe in Jesus or do I just agree with stuff about him? Like how do I know if I've really surrendered or if I'm just saying the right things? Again, we've kind of covered that in the heart issue, but again, again, we've kind of covered that in the heart issue, but again, I think it deserves a little extra clarity because people struggle with this. There's a lot of fakers out there. It is possible to believe. Tell me if I'm wrong. What do you think, donnie, on this? Is it possible to believe, basically have head knowledge to know that God is real, he is who he is? I know, historically speaking, the evidence supports it. Jesus is who he is. I know, historically speaking, the evidence supports it. Jesus is who he is. I believe he raised from the dead. Does that save me? Is that enough? Is head knowledge enough for salvation?
Speaker 4:No, because salvation is not based on you and what you do. It's based on what.
Speaker 1:God does.
Speaker 4:That's right. So my own effort is never going to work. And if I think that, listen to what the scripture says in Romans, chapter 10, that if you believe in your heart right, that God has raised him from the dead, confess with your mouth right, thou shalt be saved, because with the heart man believes unto righteousness. Write this. But when you look back in Jeremiah, chapter 17, what does the scripture say about man's heart? It says it's desperately wicked, right, deceitful above all things. Who can know it Right? So you're telling me that when the gospel is preached and I believe it am I believing it in that heart that you just said is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right. So I'm trusting in that heart to say did I really believe?
Speaker 2:No, that's not how it works and I think that's why people get confused about their own salvation. I remember I struggled the first year. I didn't know if I was saved. I spent a whole year of asking Christ to come into my heart a whole year because I never had some miraculous experience and I struggled with it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because it's not what you do, right? Did I really believe? Well, my heart is deceitful. God, you just told me that in Jeremiah, but now you're telling me to believe in my heart. How am I supposed to believe in a heart, with my heart that you say is deceitful and desperately wicked? Well, the point is, god has to give me a new heart, right. He has to regenerate me, right. And when he does that, then I'm able to believe. Right, that's what it says in Ezekiel. He says I will take your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, right, and then you will believe, and then you will walk in my ways.
Speaker 3:He's doing the work he will cause you to, that's right, yeah, and I think that the actual root cause of that question to come up with a lot of people is the am I good enough? That whole question stems from the belief of am I good enough to be saved, rather than am I actually saved? That's the root behind the question and, again, that's putting it on us, that's putting our salvation upon ourselves. So what I would just say, to a young adult especially, is allow God to work in your life in the way that he wants to work and what that is. He will lead you. Continue praying, continue to be in his word, continue to figure out the truth of who God is in your life and follow it Like just full heartedly seek after it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Um, to close it up so there's two scriptures I would share is the talk about the head knowledge is James 2, 19. You're probably familiar with this, donnie Brock, you probably are too. It says even the demons believe. And they shudder right. They have the head knowledge, they know who he is, but they're not submitted to him.
Speaker 2:So what we're looking for to anybody out there, if you want the absolute assurance that you're a believer, that you are saved beyond the shadow of a doubt, it's not the head knowledge that does it. It has to be converted, and Jesus says this in Luke 9, 23,. If anyone would come after me, this is how you're going to know, he says, if you're coming after me, if you want to know that you're coming after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Don't just suffer for Christ one time and be like whew, I got it out of the way, I'm good. He says daily, every single day, you wake up out of bed, pick up the cross and carry it all day long. You're going to suffer for Christ. That doesn't make sense. An unregenerated person will not do that. They won't. They'll have the head knowledge, and we see these Christians all the time.
Speaker 2:You're going to go to church, speaking to everybody. Now you're going to go to church this Sunday. You're going to start looking around and be like how many there are? Just pew warmers. They're just there checking off. I'm here today, but they don't go the rest of the week ever doing anything for Jesus. They won't say his name, they won't pray at a meal, they won't pray at night, they won't read their Bible, none of this stuff. I've had people leave their Bible at church and I thought about calling them. I was like, let me see if I don't call them, how long did it go? And I've had people literally show up next Sunday with a new Bible in their hand. I'm like, oh, oh, I left it at church. Huh, that's where your Bible's at.
Speaker 3:I think really sorry quick to interject this, but I think that a big question a lot of people would have is, especially as an adult or a new believer.
Speaker 3:I think that a big question a lot of people would have is like, especially as an adult or a new believer, I think it would be. What does that mean? To pick up my cross daily, um, and to, kind of, you know, give some some emphasis to that. What was the cross meant to do? Um, it was to meant to do everything that we had discussed earlier, but it was to crucify the flesh. So, as we walk through our daily um, you know, picking up of our cross, the entirety of that message is to deny your flesh, crucify the flesh, get rid of it, don't indulge in it. And again there's grace. There's going to be moments where you sin. There's going to be moments where that happens, but thank God for the mercy that he has on us. But that is what picking up your cross means is to deny the flesh and crucify it with Christ.
Speaker 2:I will say this and I'm not saying that Jesus is imperfect, I'm definitely not saying this but I want to show the example of God's grace at work in Jesus. Jesus dropped the cross. He didn't have the strength to carry it all the way and he got help. The Roman soldiers made a gentleman help him pick up the cross and carry it so that he could get it there. Grace, we have that same grace on us. We can't carry it.
Speaker 2:The reality is it's a burden that's too much for anybody to bear and we get the help of the Holy Spirit to carry that. This is why we're called to go to church and to fellowship with one another. People are like I don't need church, I got God, I fellowship with God. And when I hunt or when I golf or whatever I do on Sunday other than church, people want to justify that. But the reality is, jesus said, where two or three are gathered in my name, I'm in the midst of them and we get help. And we should get help from one another and our church's fellowship family should be helping one another.
Speaker 2:So, and again that's denying self, right, I'm going to live for Brock. And again that's denying self, right, I'm going to live for Brock. I'm going to live for Donnie. I'm going to live to help them in their suffering. That's not natural to me. The natural person would be like I'll wait for them to ask and then maybe we'll see. I might make an excuse not to help, or I can't, or this or that, but a believer will go out of their way to deny themselves and be like Brother Donnie, I know you're going through it right now. What can I do to help you? And then you might say nothing, but I don't care, I'm helping you anyway. I'm going to do something to ease your burden, to ease your pain, and that's what we do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I was just going to say too, because like it's not even just like a character embodiment of like the spirit within us, like the spirit's going to call us to do those things, we're also commanded to do those things.
Speaker 1:In.
Speaker 3:Philippians. It says to put the interest of others above yourself. You know so God is calling us and commanding us to, especially in the fellowship of Christ. Like put other people above yourself always, like that's how you emulate Christ.
Speaker 2:And that's the heart right. At the end of the day, it's not what you say or what you do, because our sinful nature is going to come out of us, but it's the intent behind it, and only you know that, like many people are going around faking it pretty good. I think there's a lot of those people out there and if you get close to them you start to recognize that they're usually the people who don't let you close to them. They only want to put on a show to an extent, but you can't get really close to them because the real them isn't what you and I see. That's the social media people, a lot of that out there. They only want you to see the best parts of them. But the real, genuine believers will show you the real them. They're not perfect, they're messed up. You know they say the wrong thing, they do the wrong thing, but the intent like they genuinely sacrifice themselves for people. You know what I mean. It's like that is how you want to know you're a believer. It's that genuine sacrifice. Jesus said there's no greater love than somebody die for his brother right, like for another person. And that's the point, this sacrifice. Pick up your cross and follow after me. So I think that's the assurance.
Speaker 2:I think this was a great discussion. I think we've covered a lot. We've been here for a minute. I hope our listeners really got a lot out of this, and to our listeners I would say again please, this is why we need your questions. We want to discuss this with you, we want to bring guest speakers in and we want to dive into these questions and we want to help you understand the truth of God's word so that you can truly be set free, because Jesus said if the Son has set you free, you will be free indeed, and that freedom is to live in righteousness for the glory of God, so that you can have the fullness of his joy. There's no better freedom than that. So, with that said, I'm going to go ahead and close us in prayer and we'll get out of here. So, father God, thank you so much for this time together with my brothers. It was such a joy to have this conversation.
Speaker 2:For our listeners, for the people out there who are struggling with these things, struggling to know if they're saved or not, I pray that you would make it fully known to them that you would reveal yourself to them, that you would transform their hearts to live for you and to die for you. That it's both. You know to die is to gain everything, but to live is for Christ. So, whether we live or die, we have you either way, god, and I love that promise. I pray that our listeners would hear that, know that, believe it and submit to it that they would put themselves in situations where they're literally sacrificing their selves for somebody else, so that they can know and have that assurance that you are in them and working in them and, above all, god, that you get the glory and they get the joy. We love you and we thank you, jesus, in your precious name. Amen.
Speaker 2:As always, I want to thank you for joining us today, and I hope this episode has helped you take a step closer in your relationship with Jesus and that you now have a deeper understanding of just how much God loves you and wants you to know him. Every fourth episode we pause to answer your questions, just like we did today, so keep them coming. Use the text us link in the episode description to share what's on your heart. Your input helps us to shape future episodes that speak directly to your needs and help you grow in your faith. It's our desire that this ministry be a tool to reach the lost and equip the saints for a life that brings glory to God. God bless, and we'll see you next time on the Takeaway.