Ep 23 | Advice for Highly Represented MBA Applicants

In this episode of the mbaMission podcast, Harold Simansky and Harshad Mali discuss the intricacies of the MBA admissions process, focusing on the importance of personal storytelling, overcoming demographic challenges, and the significance of fit in consultant relationships. They emphasize the need for applicants to present their unique perspectives and experiences, rather than conforming to formulaic writing styles. The discussion also covers the importance of school selection and the holistic nature of applications, including recommendations and personal narratives.

Takeaways

• People often box themselves into demographics.
• Personal storytelling is crucial for MBA applications.
• Adcoms are looking for unique perspectives, not stereotypes.
• Avoid formulaic writing; authenticity is key.
• Fit between consultant and client is essential for success.
• Diversify your school application portfolio.
• Your first job post-MBA is critical for your career.
• Don't crowdsource your application materials.
• Bring out your struggles and successes in essays.
• Test scores are just one part of the application.

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Transcript

Harold Simansky (00:10)
Hi everyone, I'm Harold Simansky of mbaMission here today with my colleague Harshad Mali. Hi Harshad!

Harshad Mali (00:15)
Hi Harold, how are you doing?

Harold Simansky (00:17)
Good, how are you? are you? Great, great, great. Now, Harshad and I were just chatting and Harshad, your last name is Mali, which I understand is a country. Though I just learned it 30 seconds ago when you told me. So from that perspective, Harshad, a good point of introduction.

Harshad Mali (00:19)
I'm doing well.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, Mali is a country in Africa and Timbuktu, which is a place a lot of people know about, is from the country of Mali. And although I am an Indian guy, as you can probably see, my name, my last name is very unique. And when I go to Africa, a lot of people assume that I am.

from Mali and that's something that is very amusing. But yes, good to see you, Harold How are you doing?

Harold Simansky (00:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Nice to see you too. Nice to see you too. But Harshad you touched on it, but let's just jump right on in here. You are obviously an Indian male. Your background is an engineer. You and I quite frequently have folks who come from quote, overrepresented demographics, meaning folks like male Indian engineers. Obviously they are very concerned about that fact. And if I'm in a male Indian engineer and I come to see you Harshad or

some other quote overrepresented demographic, what's the first thing you say to people? How should people start thinking about

Harshad Mali (01:33)
Yeah, I think the first thing I'll say is from my own experience is, you know, people put themselves in squares, right? And I think a lot of that has to do with the work that involved them, whether it's in the field that I work in, or in tech, or really any part of engineering. And I've done a lot of coding myself. So that work is very structured and there is very little interaction.

going on with the team per se. And so although engineers do have that persona in them, that doesn't come out as well. And so that's the first thing I tell my engineering clients is to really unload themselves from their work and really bring out who they are. Because who they are is a lot beyond what they can see at work.

And in our annual conference, I had suggested the game theory philosophy, right? There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, and then there are unknown unknowns. And yet there are unknown knowns as well. And so what I try to help my clients, or whoever is interested in talking to me, especially engineers, figure out what their known knowns are. And I help them get out their known unknowns.

That's the biggest thing I think engineers need to come out of this square and then present themselves holistically. And so that's the first thing that I say, you know, do not undermine or underestimate yourself because the things that they do are very crucial for business really. And if they can bring it out in the way that

audiences, the ad comps can understand, they're gonna do well. So that's the first thing I think I like to do with my clients. Anyone I meet on the street, know, sometimes people recognize me. So I, you know, have a chat with them and you know, that's what I say.

Harold Simansky (03:45)
Harshad, what's interesting and everyone listening should know at mbaMission it is not infrequent that we pass essays back and forth to each other. There's 25 of us here. There's always somebody who knows something that we don't know. And from that perspective, there's a lot of interaction. One thing that's always impressed me about your essays that you help folks with, and I think your rate of success speaks to this is I will read

Only when I look at their resume do I have any sense that they're actually Indian engineers, Asian consultants, whatever it is that I've always found with your essays, truly is person, people, personality. You make people into a demographic of one when all of a

Harshad Mali (04:28)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the personal angle is something that I really focus on because a lot of people don't know what people around the world are doing. So when it comes to international applicants, I make sure that they bring out their life, their story out in a way that adcoms here can understand as well. And oftentimes, you know, talk about perception and perspective. So.

Many people, when they write, they think about, okay, the audience is the adcom in the West, you know, and they are trying to trigger themselves in a way that will appeal to the adcoms. What has changed now is the adcoms are no longer in the perception mode. They are in the perspective mode. So that's a big difference now. You know, the perception that people used to have about others,

is no longer the case, it is about the perspective that trying to understand people's perspectives more. So, you know, that's something that I try to bring out and the thing is, look, I mean, life is full of struggles. mean, I've gone through many struggles on my own. And business really and capitalism is for the people. Now, whether it works to its best,

That's a discussion for another day. But I think you have to bring in your life in a way that can communicate your persona, your personality, how you carry yourself, and the link you have to business because of who you are as a person. Because look, I mean, if you look around, it's the capitalism that has worked. It's not the...

socialism or communism that has worked, right? So I try to help bring out personal stories in connection with people's work, their accomplishments, their goals, and clearly why MBA and how as people they're going to add to the classroom and are going to do great things in the campus and beyond. I clearly business schools want people who do great things down the road.

Harold Simansky (06:49)
Right. Yeah.

Harshad Mali (06:51)
And it is people like the ones that bring a holistic view of themselves in the applications that do well.

Harold Simansky (07:02)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Listen, I've always had this a little bit of a dilemma when I start working with a client. And I think you know exactly what I mean. Frequently, they will look at essays before they start talking to us. They may even look, download our GSB, HBS essay guide with winning essays. And they'll come to us and say, I want to write an essay like that. In fact, I didn't know about you. I sort of have mixed feelings about our guides.

Our HBS GSB guy because someone says what's the menu? What's the formula and I want to write a great piece of writing? But do such formulas exist? I think I know the answer to it Harshad but does such formulas exist or someone says to you I want to have a great piece of writing and Commercial here Harshad is a writer. He's a creative writer besides being an mbaMission consultant But I mean honestly, I'll throw that open to you. Hey Harshad. I want to work with you because I want a great piece of writing What do you say?

Harshad Mali (07:30)
Uh-huh.

Yeah, that's a really good question. Look, as an engineer, I've done a lot of coding myself. And when I read something, I can easily put those essays into various buckets, right? And there's a code for that. If I were to code an essay, I would really look at content, the flow, what the style is, and all of those things. And I can come up with several codes.

But the thing is, it's very formulaic. So when you read essays from published guides, you you tend to, you know, repeat the style structure and you try to, you know, tweak in some of those things and put yourself in that. And that's where you lose the organic touch. And that's where the creativity comes into play, you know, and it really in life,

Harold Simansky (08:23)
Yep, right.

Harshad Mali (08:51)
someone is really creative if that person comes up with something organic and then brings out things in a way that he or she wants and in a way that the audience can understand. So I think you're absolutely right. Reading guides and trying to copy the style, the content, and putting yourself in those shoes is typically what I see.

when people come up with essays that don't get anywhere. And so I think that's something that people should avoid. mean, the guides, the essays that they read are just a reference point. It's just for them to understand how to think about themselves rather than repeating what people have already said. But what's observation? I'd like to know more. mean,

you see when you read these essays that look very similar to what our guides say.

Harold Simansky (09:51)
Yeah, I mean, listen, one of the dilemmas, and there's a tension here in the sense of, yes, you want to write a great essay. And the perfect opportunity for that might be the Stanford essay. What matters most to you and why? I also have to remind clients, you're applying to business school, you're not applying to divinity school. So this notion here is you still need to communicate an idea that at least indicates why business school may be right for you.

maybe you're not explicit in terms of, hey, X, Y, Z, I must go to business school. But at least when someone reads that essay, they will think to themselves, OK, it makes sense why this person wants to go to business school. This person has the mind, has thinks about these things in such a way that business school will be really a great compliment and allow them to do many things. I think that that's how I start thinking about

Harshad Mali (10:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I think the reason why people do that is because they want to succeed. And, you know, many of them rely on what has happened in the past to predict what they think is going to happen in the future. And that's a big, I would say, people have because adcoms have read all these things. They can quickly figure out what people have said in the past.

Harold Simansky (10:53)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Harshad Mali (11:11)
and inventions and creations are not repeating things. Look, as you know, I'm a very keen geopolitical general knowledge junkie of sorts, but like recently I was working with a client who comes from the defense forces, right? And we were talking about the Chinese Navy and how the Navy is the biggest Navy in the world.

Harold Simansky (11:19)
Yeah. Yes.

Harshad Mali (11:35)
Chinese Navy is. But a lot of that has been copied from other countries' technology. And it's not like that Navy can keep up with the new inventions and all that. So I'm not saying that the Chinese Navy is bad or great. I don't want to get into that debate. But I think you have to continually up your game to

Harold Simansky (11:52)
young. Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

Harshad Mali (12:01)
Reveal who you are. And so coming back to essays that we see in our guides, those are great pieces of work, but they are just reference points for people to understand how to think about themselves. So that's the biggest thing.

Harold Simansky (12:20)
Yeah, listen, I'm also very, it's sort of funny. You and I are super nice guys. There aren't nicer guys out there than Harshad and Harold. That said, we both have a tendency of being very straightforward with our clients. And when I see an essay that reminds me of something else, it was clearly a derivative essay. I'll say very honestly to my client is, if you were trying to be somebody else, if you want to try to be something that's not you, you lose.

Harshad Mali (12:26)
Yeah.

Harold Simansky (12:49)
Honestly, you lose because there's always going to be somebody who has a higher GPA than you or has a higher GMAT score than you. So if you try to look like them, you're going to lose. There's a world of McKinsey, Bain and BCG consultants out there. There's a world of investment bankers out there. If you cannot explain exactly why you are who you are, show that you're unique, show how additive you'll be to this process, that you're not going to quote look like anybody else, then you have some more work to do. I'll put it to you that way.

Harshad Mali (13:20)
Yeah, I think your directness is much appreciated. I think as colleagues, I appreciate your directness, which comes with humor also. And that's the best part about you that I enjoy. And I think I do the same. try to do the same as well. Look, I mean, I'm a big tennis player. And the fact that Rafa is retiring in November was a big blow. I always supported Roger, but...

Rafa is one heck of a player and a guy. And, you know, I always tell people, Rafa had 16 years with Uncle Tony to become the player he had. You don't have 16 years to become a great MBA applicant. You have only a few months, few weeks. And this is where the directness helps you a lot. And I like that you're direct. You know, I think...

for people who understand the meaning behind it and can work on it, can actually excel and do the best that they can, rather than beating around the bush. So the one thing that I'll say is our directness is not to bring people down, is to get the best out of them in the least amount of time they have. And as I said, if I were coaching someone to become a-

take my own sweet time. You know, but that's not the case. And I see in your case, when you talk to clients, you definitely have that direct view, but you, you know, put it in a very light way. And actually, I've learned a lot from you in that, whether you know that or not, I do want you to be aware of that. I think it's a very crucial trait. I think, I don't think essays should be very funny or humorous.

Harold Simansky (15:05)
Right,

Harshad Mali (15:10)
there can be a touch of humor in them. But in real life, think humor goes a long way to bring down the stress, the expectations people have from each other. And I think both you and I do a good job of that. So yeah.

Harold Simansky (15:10)
All right. Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. No, listen, I'm not going to embarrass Harshad because I know you do get embarrassed in this way. I'm not going to tell people what a great tennis player you are going back many, many years. I will also, I will simply say Harshad, you've been a mentor to me. There's no question about it. You've been doing this longer than me. You've been doing it incredibly successfully. I think what you've also showed me, and again, Harshad and I, know, full disclosure, Harshad and I worked together a lot.

Harshad Mali (15:33)
Yeah.

Harold Simansky (15:53)
What you have done a number of times that has really been very illustrative for me is you've passed me clients. You've passed me clients and you've basically said to me that this client will work better with you than with me. And sometimes the reason for that, and I hopefully have passed you some clients, and sometimes the reason for that is because you and I are different from each other. So when that male Indian engineer sees you and says, that's the perfect person for me,

You know that need not be the case. In fact, sometimes what a client needs is somebody who looks quite different from that. Somebody actually who can poke them and prod them. So you and I obviously will speak to a lot of people who will then turn around and use a consultant maybe in their home country. Maybe somebody that a friend used. And the reality is that doesn't necessarily do what you want to do, which is really get the best story.

really get the best application. And from my perspective, and I will tell these people all the time, particularly we get a lot of people who are trying many different MBA admission consultants, I say, listen, it's about fit. You have to understand that the person who you're talking to is going to be your intimate colleague, friend for the next many hours, 50 hours. And you have to really fit with that person.

And I just love some of your thoughts. Wide open question here, Harshad, but around.

Harshad Mali (17:18)
No, I think you're absolutely right. think fit is very key in life. I mean, whether you're buying a home, a car, or even dating, I think it is something that is very important that a lot of people miss out on. You have to figure out who the person is when you're working with someone. I think a lot goes into whether you can connect from a communication standpoint.

Harold Simansky (17:27)
Yep. Yeah.

Harshad Mali (17:47)
clients who didn't connect with interviews. They cannot stop that. They cannot change that. But when working with consultants, I think they need to see a person that they're talking to resonates with them. I think that's something that's really important. So one thing I always tell my would-be clients is to look around, see.

who makes sense for them. And especially when I am doing my free consultations, you know, I don't push them to work with me. I think I like to have them figure out who would be a better fit for them if it's not me. look, mean, fit is everything. I am big into aerospace and astronomy, not astrology by the way. I am not a good fortune teller as well.

Harold Simansky (18:42)
No, no.

Harshad Mali (18:44)
But the thing is, the universe is designed, if it is actually designed by a simulator, in a very peculiar way. You know, the way the galaxies are, the way they come up and die, the way the planets attract each other and the stars attract planets, these are all, you know, made up with a certain way.

I I don't want to go too much into technical details in that, but I think it's easy for people to, you know, really sit down, figure out what makes sense to them or who makes sense to them. And then they should work with that person. And so if I feel like I really like a free counselor that I'm working with and wants to work with me,

But I feel like that person will get embedded out of you. Let's I'm gonna send that person to you because the fit is something that's really important and Look, I mean I might be biased but to me the universe means everything and so when I see what is happening You know In the universe, it's the same thing happening on the earth as well But through you know real life

And that's the connection I tried to draw. But I guess when you look at fit, for example, right? I mean, what do you look at when evaluating free consoles fit with yourself or someone else?

Harold Simansky (20:25)
Yeah. Listen, certainly the industries that are interested in it is certainly an important piece of it. There's no question about it. We have people, obviously I do, for example, a of real estate. Many of us do real estate, but that's something I know. So that's sort of what I would say is a quick, you know, a quick, let's think about that. At the same point, what I really look for is just somebody who I can speak to and somebody will actually be receptive.

I think that that's really it. I've worked with all types of people and like you said, we sometimes pass off clients back and forth or colleagues back and forth. By design, we're a big team for that reason. There is, by all means, we are encouraged to do that and we do it. And if anything, the reason that I would have somebody work with somebody else really has nothing to do with the industry they're looking at, nothing to do with the schools that they're looking at. Rather from a perspective of personality, they seem to be aligned.

work style they seem to be aligned. Their needs are very much aligned. And Harshad, you know this. I'm not necessarily the person who you would want to work with if you want to have a Gantt chart of how this process will fall out. And if you're gonna want a series of checklists, Harold is probably not for you. Harold is a guy.

likes some sort of informality, who really embraces this notion of the creative process is a little bit messy. So from that perspective, if someone comes to me who I feel like work style is more a Harshad work style, then I'm immediately, I will tell them that that's the direction you should go by all means.

Harshad Mali (22:02)
And you're absolutely right. think our backgrounds don't matter much. You know, I have worked with someone who worked in the White House. The White House. Worked with someone who was a Broadway theater artist. Okay. I worked with doctors. Okay. And I worked with several, you know, clients from the financial industry as well. Being who I am, clearly that comes with me, but

Harold Simansky (22:09)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Harshad Mali (22:27)
I I have clients in pretty much every big school. The biggest thing was it was not my background that influenced them to work with me, but it was about the fit. I mean, to say that I know a lot about Broadway is a joke. I don't. But the thing is I know the values, the characteristics, the traits that come out of that person and therefore I'm able to position that person well in...

applications. So I think that's something a lot of people should also realize. What you see is what not you will get. And that works in a good way many times, in our case especially.

Harold Simansky (23:13)
Yeah, yeah, listen. Listen, I think that's right, Harshad. And I think you'll remember a client of mine, not a client of mine, a consultant of mine who was looking at agribusiness in Africa. And for many different reasons, I thought you were the right fit, which you were. But at no point in this process did I say, how much does Harshad know about agribusiness in Africa? Honestly, it wasn't important. And I think the reason you two were successful is because so many other things were more important.

fit work style, just general personalities. And I think that that's what really will drive the relationship. And again, if you don't have a good relationship with your consultant, then that's when you probably don't get the result.

Harshad Mali (23:54)
Absolutely and look I mean we both are funny and sometimes some people maybe are too serious and maybe the humor doesn't work for them and that's case they can work with someone else on our team. But I think the fit is what is the deal clincher really. It's not the background, it's not even the reviews. The reviews are one data point but really the fit matters the most which is why I always encourage people look at my game and

Harold Simansky (23:59)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Exactly right.

Harshad Mali (24:24)
see if there's anyone else you think you'd be better to work with.

Harold Simansky (24:29)
No, absolutely. Absolutely. And Harshad, just very quickly, maybe a quick profile of folks who you feel like you work with very, very well. And I should say, slight parentheses here, Harshad works with probably the broadest group of applicants that we have. know, Harshad, there's very few folks who Harshad doesn't work incredibly well with. But that said, Harshad, give me a general quick snapshot of who works, who likes working with you and you like.

Harshad Mali (24:54)
That's a really good question. think people who like my direct style like working with me. But the bigger thing is I'm a general knowledge geek, right? I can talk about pretty much any topic. I might not be an expert in everything, my eye on what's going on around the world, and especially domestically as well, is very crucial for what people do.

book, big bookworm of sorts. But you know, as you know, as some people know, I'm also writing a book which will come to fruition at some point. To me, I mean, really, everyone is equal. I mean, I work with people from the financial industry, it's private equity, banking, whether it's asset management, you name it. And clearly, worked with a lot of engineers from, you

various industries, not only the industry that I worked in, which was automotive, but also many from the tech industry. I've done so much coding and I understand the dynamics of play at work and how that transforms your view about work, business and all those things and how to bring those things out. So that's one thing. But I also enjoy working with people who have nothing to do with my background, know, from an education and career standpoint.

Harold Simansky (25:49)
You're right.

Yeah.

Harshad Mali (26:17)
As I was saying earlier, I worked with so many different people from very unique professional backgrounds. I just remembered a teacher recently that I had worked with and the person is doing really well right now. But that teacher struggles in the classroom and why it is important for that person to improve education.

Harold Simansky (26:36)
Yeah.

Harshad Mali (26:44)
I so, you know, I work with all kinds of people. think people underestimate us, both you and me, and, you know, really, you know, many on my team on what they can offer. And, you know, I think they should look beyond what they see in a background because we've all worked with all kinds of clients and, you know, we've been really well trained. We're excellent writers, all of us.

Not only that, the ideas we come up with are just phenomenal. mean, and that's what really keeps me refreshed every morning. It's the ideas that we all discuss behind the scenes that come into play and bring in our clients work. So the thing is, yes, mean, we work with all kinds of clients, but so does everyone at mbaMission So I think that's what...

Harold Simansky (27:36)
Yeah, and I think that's right. And just another plug Harshad. And again, I don't want to make this too much of a commercial, but one of I have referred to you both one of the youngest people I ever spoke with and one of the oldest people I ever spoke with. And again, it's because though the ages were probably separated by solid 15 years, the reality is that it's the fit, it's the personality. There is no quick checkbox. So I want to this person didn't say to me, I want to work with the youngest person here. And that was completely.

And really everything is like that. You don't necessarily want to work with Harshad because even, you know, I would even go farther than that. You don't want to work with Harshad because he's an Indian engineer. You want to work with Harshad because he will get the best work out of you. Together you will create the most compelling application possible. So I think that's always something for people to keep in mind.

And you can start off by figuring this out by signing up for a free 30 minute consultation here at mbaMission Talk to either me, Harshad, one of our other 20 something colleagues, and let's just get to know you. And again, this is free. Let's just hear what you have to say. Let's introduce yourselves and help you understand what a successful MBA admission process sounds like.

Harshad Mali (28:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Look, I mean, we're all excellent writers. That's the foundation of what we are. And when it comes to me, I'm a big general knowledge geek. And as a kid, when I was in NCC, it's called National Cadet Corps, I won a gold medal actually because of my general knowledge and my writing. You know, at that point, I had written an essay about the Iraq war and its consequences on India. A lot of people were not aware.

even remotely aware of what the consequences would be because this was just before the internet arrived. So it was not like people could Google and figure things out. you know, if people need help to figure out their life from no matter where they are, and I think I can help them. But again, you also got to look at fit. They think I'm a fit.

Harold Simansky (29:50)
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Harshad, let's just take a minute and share what your background was or what your background is, because you had an interesting road to come to mbaMission and MBA Admissions Consult.

Harshad Mali (30:03)
Yeah, I mean, the background is very different from a typical MBA. I mean, personally, I come from a low middle class family. If you look at that in today's terms, I pursued my MS at IIT Chicago with a mechanical and aerospace engineering degree. And then I worked in automotive industry.

because that was something that had always fascinated me as a kid. In there, I worked on critical systems on diesel engines, but there was a lot of coding involved in there as well. So it was not just designing, but you gotta make sure that mechanical design has to work. So there was a lot of coding involved there. And then I did my MBA at Booth, and then I did some product management work in automotive.

I started my own consulting firm to advise manufacturers, small and medium scale manufacturers on their operations issues. And then again, it was a circle because I was always a good writer as a kid. And it made sense to go back to that, which is why I joined mbaMission.

and one of the few, I'd say, internationals who work in the space in the US. I mean, there are a lot of other firms in other countries where they're locals, but I am one of the few who is an international in a way who works in...

Harold Simansky (31:30)
Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, of course. But a you've been a US citizen now for what is it about a year, Harshad?

Harshad Mali (31:48)
fun, you put it that way.

I think it's been four years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Four years, yeah.

Harold Simansky (31:58)
Has it already been four years? Okay. Yeah, there we go. I feel like I remembered God. I guess COVID completely blanked out a period of years at this point. So.

Harshad Mali (32:08)
Yeah, I think the COVID pandemic was a big blip in the lives of many people. And it was during that time that...

Harold Simansky (32:16)
Absolutely. What I always think is interesting in telling Harshad, I'm sure you've had this experience, is we all do lot of ding reviews. Meaning people come to us and they say, listen, why did I not get in? And what I will frequently tell folks is because I've read your story before. And what I generally mean by that is

I'm reading your essay, I know nothing about you. This essay could have written by practically dozens of people. And where I feel like this issue is even more pronounced is for those people who use MBA admissions consultants in other countries. And I don't want to, this is going to sound very self-serving, but at the same point, I think it's right. And I loved your thoughts about it.

It has reached a point where I can even tell you who some of these MBA admissions consultants are because I've read so many of their essays and they all sound the same. Harshad I don't know if that's your experience as well.

Harshad Mali (33:24)
Yeah, I think I've seen that quite a bit and of late I have seen the chatGPT coming to play as well. I think one thing people need to be aware of is chatGPT is good on a certain level but if you really want to do better, I think you need to think organically. so schools these days have ways to figure that out.

even if they don't figure it out on a computer through the various chatGPT tracking tools. I think just reading things can help them figure it out, help adcoms figure out what is happening. But I think there's another element to it, even some genuine essays don't make it. And there are things that are beyond your control. And I always tell people, look,

you're running the race with blinders on. You have no idea who's running the race with you. You only know what the outcome is after you finish the race. And that's true, right? So any given season, there are so many applicants. You've got to put your best foot forward. And the essays are part of what you do, but there are so many other things. Your resume, I mean, very key. You cannot write a soap opera on that, but yet you cannot, you know.

forget the accomplishments. So that's one thing. The recommendations are a huge part of the application also. And a lot of people don't realize this, but recommendations can make or break you in your applications because it's a third lens for the ad coms. And I often tell people who come up with complaints that, I didn't get in or what went wrong. And many times the recommendations are just not up to the mark.

Which is also why the clients need to, or applicants need to really focus on who's recommending them, how being in good relationships with those recommenders, especially during the crunch time. Be respectful of them and don't write your own recommendations. A lot of people do that and that is easily tracked by school.

Harold Simansky (35:34)
Yes.

Harshad Mali (35:48)
If you're writing in your applications, it's the same as writing in recommendations, then it's a clear giveaway. So yeah, I don't think it's just the essays that we need to focus on when we get dinged or we don't achieve the desired outcomes. It's holistic overall.

Harold Simansky (36:02)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And listen, what I also tell folks, the vast, vast, vast majority of our clients are applying to the most competitive schools. That's something that is easily understood at the start of this process. You want to apply to Harvard Business School, let's say 10 % acceptance rate, even if we do our jobs perfectly and we do the absolute best possible application that we can, we will never get you up to 100%. We just won't.

We'll never be able to ever say, this is the winning application. We can't. There's just too much randomness to it. So instead, I turn it around. And anyone who says to me, I want to apply to Harvard Stanford Wharton, I say, that's fantastic. Let's do it. You want to go there? Let's apply there. I just want people to have their eyes wide open. And honestly, if someone says to me, Harold, I'm only going to go to those business schools. I'm only going to Harvard Stanford Wharton. I don't want to waste my time. Then.

Obviously you apply to Harvard Stanford Warden. If someone comes to me and says, Harold, I have to be in business school next September, Harvard Stanford Warden is only a start. If you have to be in business school next September, you better include those. Harvard Stanford Warden, MIT, Columbia, maybe even go to an Emory at Georgetown. It's two schools that I really love, UCLA. But again, and I've always told people, don't ask me your chances because I'd be a fool if I tried to answer. What else have I done?

Harshad Mali (37:22)
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. think, you know, first of all, people need to figure out why they need an MBA, you know, do they really need it, right? Some people are just doing that just for the brand, you know, and if that's the case, and if you only want to apply to Harvard, Stanford or Wharton, then go for it. But oftentimes people are looking for better careers, you know, they want to grow and...

feel of where they are in or they want to pivot. And when it comes to that, they need to diversify their school portfolio, just like you diversify your financial portfolio, right? You do not put all your eggs in the same basket because it's going to hurt you. The risk is high. So I often hear, you know, complaints about, I'm not into an M7 school. Should I do this not? I mean, you've got to look at it holistically, you know.

Harold Simansky (37:57)
Yeah, it's right.

Harshad Mali (38:16)
what is the school you got into going to give you from a career standpoint? And if it's going to do what an M7 school is going to do, then go and do it. And which is also why you should apply to a diverse range of schools when you apply. You know, just applying to, you know, these M7 schools, and we're all good at this, there's no doubt about that. coming back to your success rate, I mean, it's not like you're going to be successful. You know, there are things that are out of your hand, things you cannot control.

Harold Simansky (38:26)
Yeah, absolutely.

Harshad Mali (38:47)
And you've got to think about your career first and foremost, right? And if it's going to happen through in a school that maybe you initially did not want to but it's a good school regardless, go for it, right? And so that's something that I always tell people, diversify your application portfolio. Do not invest in just bonds or just stocks or ETFs and...

If you're not an expert, do not go into day trading. So the same applies to business school applications.

Harold Simansky (39:17)
That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And you can't really anticipate what the choice you will have. And I'll frequently tell folks there are certain schools that they simply have a lot of money. Would you go to that school for free? Someone will say to me, well, I only want to go to M7 school. Really? How about if UCLA gave you 100 % scholarship, which for UCLA is not unheard of? How about if Duke gave you a huge scholarship? Really? And candidly,

That changes the calculus. It just does. How could it not? So from that perspective.

Harshad Mali (39:51)
Yeah, I think you have a point. think many schools are right there. recently, I mean, just yesterday, I was talking to a client about thinking about applying to UCLA and USC because his goal is real estate. And these are really good schools when it comes to real estate. So he is going to apply to those schools. you know, so yeah, I mean, having a broad picture in your mind, think it's very important.

Harold Simansky (40:18)
No, that's right. I remember when I went out a couple of years ago, went out to Rice, the business school there. And again, Rice, you know, the rankings vary, you know, top 20-ish school. I have to tell you, Rice, I was blown away. I was blown away by the campus. I was blown away by the professors. I was blown away by the students. And then I was blown away by the fact that it has a lot of money and they give a lot of scholarships. So it is not unusual for me to say, look at the Rice, that would be appropriate for

Harshad Mali (40:48)
So that's an interesting thing about Rice because one client from Rice who got into McKinsey, know, alcohol, that person said, you know, he works with some other people who know you. And then I collected dots. They all worked with me, but they had gone to different schools. One had gone to HBS, one had gone to Fuqua.

One had gone to Tepper of all schools and one had gone to Rice. And somehow they're connected. And the career outcomes pretty much were the same. So, you you've got to think about that also. know, be realistic. Yes, the Harvard, Stanford, Wharton brand is going to be great. But don't undermine other schools. And I often bring the example of tennis. You know, the Big Four. Federer, Nadal, Andy Murray.

Harold Simansky (41:18)
Yes.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

Harshad Mali (41:44)
and Joe Coach, right? These were called the big four. But you know, Andy Murray only won three Grand Slams. And there's another player, I'm a big fan of this guy, Stan Lawinka, because he has a single-handed backhand like I have, know, which is why I'm biased. He won three Grand Slams, but he was never in the big four. Does it mean he was bad? Absolutely not. So, you you've got to think about life in some realistic ways.

Harold Simansky (41:58)
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, absolutely. And listen, Tepper is a great example. If you want a job in tech, if you want a job at Meta Amazon, Google, they all have offices in Pittsburgh. You should see, I tell people, pull the employment report for Tepper. Those are amazing companies to work with. Their hit rate is unbelievable as far as people landing those jobs. And I tell folks, how important is the brand if you go to an MBA and your first job is at Amazon?

or your first job is at Google. In my mind, that in and of itself, your ability to get a job at these great companies, great brands, that in many ways is the key piece of this because yes, you're at a business school for two years, but that first job is really going to set you up in somebody different.

Harshad Mali (42:56)
Yeah, absolutely. The first job is very crucial. And I always tell people to think about the opportunities they can get in the schools that they attend. Do some homework on what you need to do and what the Career Resource Center in that school can do for you. And many times, you know, people end up attending schools that they have not thought about. And recently I had a client who decided to attend Tuck instead of an M7 school because the advice I gave her, you know.

why that school would be better fit for you. So, but you would absolutely be right.

Harold Simansky (43:29)
Definitely. Listen, one thing we do during our 30 minute consultation is we talk to people about their candidacy, but we also talk about school selection and really there's all sorts of different things that you can bring up with us. It's 30 minutes, it's for you, by all means sign up. On that note, Harshad, just as we sort of get at the end of time here, any final thoughts for that person who again is quote from an overrepresented demographic, Indian male engineer like yourself or whoever, what's the first piece of advice you'd like to give?

Harshad Mali (43:56)
Yeah, I think the first thing is, I mean, yes, your test scores are important, but that's not the only story, right? There's a lot of talk about GMAT versus GRE also. I don't think they need to worry about that. know, take a test in which you will do really well based on what your skills are. And don't worry about the outcomes because a lot will go into your applications as well. The test component is just one piece.

And yes, the bar is higher for, you know, mainly Indian engineers. But if you think the GRE is the way to go, because that's your strong suit, go for it, right? So that's one thing I always tell people. The other thing is, again, as I was saying, bring out your persona. I think that's very key. You know, from various angles, you your struggles, your trials and tribulations, your successes.

things you do outside of work. These things bring out a lot of good aspects that adcomm and schools will like. In interviews, don't look muddled up. Be natural, be organic. That's something that a lot of people I see are doing even now. And some people will have a cheat sheet on their.

especially if they're an online interview, and it's pretty easy to catch them, you know, so don't do that, right? I mean, being organic, even if means you have to stop and think about the response, you know, it's fine. You know, the genuine personal connection is what the interviewer is also looking for, aside from clearly, you know, all your accomplishments, your ability to and all that.

So that's something that I always tell my, you know, represented applicant pool clients. But other than that, yeah, I mean, keep doing the good work, you know, see if you can take on things outside your immediate responsibilities, especially if let's say you're an engineer, doing back end work, see if you can find opportunities to do front end work. You know, I think that helps also.

Harold Simansky (46:15)
Yeah.

Harshad Mali (46:17)
And it may not show up under your title, but at least you can bring up your interest in the business side of things. And so that's something that I always push my clients sometimes to do. Other than that, mean, I think there's so much knowledge on the internet about what to do and what not to do. One thing I also say is,

Harold Simansky (46:38)
Right.

Harshad Mali (46:44)
Do not crowdsource your applications. I think that's a pretty bad thing to do because it's like you're eating a steak with ice cream on it. I mean, you know, that's what, you know, the application turns out. And I don't think you should, you know, go that way. But that's something that I also make sure with all applications, not just, you know, mailing in engineers, you know, make sure that whatever they see comes out organic.

Harold Simansky (46:46)
No. No.

Yeah, right.

Yes.

Harshad Mali (47:12)
Because the misconception that people have is, OK, in the business realm, there's a lot of team-based discussion and whatnot. So why don't I create something that is team-based and present it to the adcomms? And that's the biggest blunder, because if you already are providing a team-based response in your application, which consists of your resume, short answers, essays, whatnot, then the adcom reader already knows.

Harold Simansky (47:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Harshad Mali (47:40)
this person already knows everything. Why does he need an MBA? That's the one thing. The second thing is they're looking for organic content, original content, so that when that person is in the classroom, that person can educate other people around him or her. If you come up with a consolidated, crowdsourced application, that's going to be really backfired. And moving on is going to be even more critical because

Harold Simansky (47:43)
Right, that's absolutely.

Yes. Yep.

Harshad Mali (48:09)
to that of chatGPT and some of the tools, the responses are gonna be generic. So you really need to figure out what you need to do to customize yourself because your persona, your thoughts, your values, your skills, interests and experiences are unique to you. You bring something unique in the classroom. Think about that rather than coming up with a blended approach that ends up in, let's say,

Harold Simansky (48:19)
Right. Right.

Harshad Mali (48:36)
case study discussion, because of diverse opinions for others. But what was your opinion? Someone in the adcom will wonder, OK, you have so many different things to bring up in the application. Who are you, really? And so that's the mistake that I tried to avoid when working with my clients. So yeah, mean, that helps.

Harold Simansky (48:38)
That's right.

That's it.

No, absolutely, Listen, if you want to continue this conversation with either me or Harshard or one of my colleagues, by all means go to our website, sign up for a free 30 minute consultation. Again, it is a consultation, it's a conversation. And if you haven't been to our website before, please go online. We have a huge amount of information, interview guides, insider guides, our blog, some wonderful things there. And finally, we just unrolled, rolled out, I guess I should say, onTrack

which is really terrific. And I encourage people just to go look at everything, a lot of different services that we're providing. And of course, the gold star for us is our start to finish package, of which you have the opportunity to work with me, Harshad, one of our colleagues, at great depth and with generally, I would say we get very good results. So on that note.

Harshad, thank you very much for joining with me today and hopefully you will come back to the mbaMission Podcast again.

Harshad Mali (49:59)
Absolutely, it was great talking to you as usual. So we'll talk again soon. Take care.

Harold Simansky (50:03)
We need.