Ep 30 | MBA Waitlist Strategies

In this conversation, Harold Simansky and Michael Guttman discuss the intricacies of being waitlisted by business schools, particularly focusing on strategies for applicants to improve their profiles, demonstrate interest, and effectively communicate with admissions committees. They emphasize the importance of proactive engagement and the potential for success even after being placed on a waitlist.

Takeaways

• Being waitlisted is still an impressive accomplishment.
• Accept your spot on the waitlist and follow instructions.
• Improving your quantitative profile can boost your chances.
• Show continued interest in the school through engagement.
• Updates should be meaningful and spaced out every four to six weeks.
• Patience is key; don't overwhelm the admissions committee with communication.
• Consider taking supplemental courses to enhance your profile.
• Understand the timing of the waitlist process and your options.
• Reapplying after being waitlisted can still be a positive move.
• Stay focused on your goals and keep working on your profile.

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Transcript

Harold Simansky (00:10)
Hi, this is Harold Simansky with the mbaMission podcast. I'm here today with my colleague, Michael Guttman. Hi, Michael.

Michael (00:16)
Hello, Harold, how you doing? Things are going well.

Harold Simansky (00:18)
Good. How's everything with you? Good, good, good. Today, Michael and I are going to be talking about wait lists and wait list strategy. And it actually comes on a appropriate day for us because today is Wharton and Harvard Business School are releasing their results. And there is going to be a not insignificant portion of people who are wait listed. So Michael, if I get that news that I'm wait listed, first of all, how should I be thinking about it? Are there strategies?

Really, what do I do?

Michael (00:48)
Well, I know it's a little frustrating. You you worked very hard on your applications for many months. You studied for your tests. You thought you did everything right and you probably did. But as you know, it's a very competitive process. But while you can be a little initially frustrated, there's hope. You you should feel actually pretty good. I mean, these are, you you just mentioned two of the most competitive schools in the world and to be waitlisted,

That's still an impressive accomplishment because these schools therefore like you. They like you enough that they want to wait list you. want to, you know, they're still trying to figure out the class composition. So they want to put you in a little bit of a, you know, a holding pattern. But you, you truly still have a chance. So, you know, if you are willing to not only wait, but you know, do some work that is required, you know, you still can get that, that kind of very happy ending at the end.

And that's what it's worth.

Harold Simansky (01:44)
That makes sense. Yeah. I always tell folks it's not admissions committee, it's rejection committee. So they have no problem rejecting people. do that every day. However business school they're rejecting nine out of 10 people. So let's start off with why would somebody have been waitlisted rather than just accepted right

Michael (02:05)
Well, again, there's a chance that they could be from an overrepresented profile. And not that there's like quotas, but there's still only so many people who can get in from, let's say, like a certain company or of course, like a certain demographic. So again, they also want to see how the class is going to shake out because remember, they're admitting people, but that doesn't mean that those people are even accepting.

Harold Simansky (02:30)
right.

Michael (02:30)
So there's a good chance that just for that alone that you can kind of go in. But of course, you know, we can talk more about it, but there's a lot of ways that you can improve your profile because, you know, clearly there are potentially some slight weaknesses that you may need to focus on.

Harold Simansky (02:49)
That's right. So with that in mind, I get waitlisted. What's the next step for me? How do I think about the process going forward? How do we think about improving my profile? Is there anything that I can do other than just sitting back and waiting? Yeah.

Michael (03:02)
A lot. First of all, you want to accept your spot on the waitlist. So don't forget to do that. And pay attention to the instructions you're going to get. You're going to get assigned a waitlist manager, you're going to get emails, you can attend a waitlist information session to gain some value and some information there. But what you're going to want to do though is think about some things you can do to kind of boost your profile over the next however many months.

What makes the most sense is often improving that quantitative profile. So, you know, I don't know if you want to talk specifically about that.

Harold Simansky (03:42)
Yeah. Yeah. So let's start off with that. And if I understand correctly, you get waitlisted disappointment, but the reality is, is there are opportunities to get in off the wait list. One of these opportunities, obviously addressing your weaknesses. So if I come to you with an, my quantitative profile is what I would say less than average, maybe I haven't majored in something in college that is inherently quantitative. Maybe I haven't had much analytical experience professionally.

On top of that then, maybe my GMAT GRE score on the quant sign is a little bit low. How should I think about my own profile? And then also, what are some of the practical steps I can take in order to fix it?

Michael (04:23)
Well, the easy option is to just take it again, take the test again. know, hopefully you've already taken it a couple of times, but you you can take it another time. You can also switch tests, you know, from the GMAT to the GRE or vice versa. And what you can also do is switch to the executive assessment. And there's a lot of schools out there.

Harold Simansky (04:26)
Yeah.

Michael (04:46)
Columbia, Stern, Darden, Duke Fuqua, UCLA Anderson, McCombs, Tepper. think those are some of the top schools who accept the EA and you don't have to do quite as well because schools don't really care about their EA averages. So switching to the EA, which is kind of similar to the GMAT, like that could also help you because then schools don't have to take your score into account. So that's definitely one way to simply boost your profile.

and then another one if you have the time. Sure.

Harold Simansky (05:17)
Michael, very quickly here. So the EA, the executive assessment is sort of a mini GMAT that was traditionally for executive MBA programs. yeah, so a little bit, I'll call it straightforward. Some people call it easier. I'm not ready to say that, but in any case, as you indicated, it's simply not something that business schools focus on because it doesn't affect class average, which doesn't affect their ranking.

Michael (05:26)
Exactly.

Harold Simansky (05:40)
So if you were a school, and again, it's a fairly limited number of schools, if they accept the EA, this would be a third test that would be a potential option.

Michael (05:49)
Yeah, and it's kind of funny because you're basically saying, don't count my GMAT score, count my executive assessment score. And if they really like you,

they'll say, okay, we can do that and we're not going to bring down our school's average.

Harold Simansky (06:02)
Okay, so one strategy is certainly retaking your test. GMAT, GRE, as you say, switching tests. Maybe you've never cracked the code on the GMAT. Give the GRE a try and see if that goes better for you. Again, executive assessment. Okay, so retaking the test. That's potentially step one.

Michael (06:20)
And if you have a lot of time, you can take a supplemental course. And I know that could be a whole other podcast, but a course like a quantitative course, especially one where maybe you do as well in during college. The gold standard is HBS course. So you could take a supplemental course that also boosts that quantitative profile and signals to these schools that you do have the strong quantitative ability needed to succeed.

Harold Simansky (06:49)
know that makes sense. just let's touch on that just a little bit. What should someone be looking at if they're thinking about taking an online class or another class? What are some of the, you mentioned HBS Core. Want to say a little bit about that as well as what some other options might be.

Michael (07:05)
So HBS Core is like two to three months, depending on like which one you take. And again, that's kind of the most impressive one you can take. It's also the most intensive, which is why it's kind of the most impressive. And that, again, is pretty quantitative. There's kind of three different modules. And especially for someone who maybe didn't take a lot of business classes or quant classes in college.

That's something that can kind of illustrate to schools that you would do well in the classroom. that's, HBS Core is a good one. And then again, you got like your stats, calculus, economics, accounting. And I would kind of look into your transcript and say, well, maybe you didn't do so well in stats your sophomore year. So let's try to improve that and show, hey, I was 19 years old and I didn't do so well in stats then, but I can actually do better in it now that I'm a.

Harold Simansky (07:43)
Yeah, bye.

Right.

Michael (08:02)
more mature professional.

Harold Simansky (08:02)
that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's all hope for that, we'll say. But just, and then there's also something called MBA Math is a popular online course.

Michael (08:06)
Haha.

Yeah, that doesn't to me move the needle as much for admissions. know, a lot of people like it because it is less intensive and just easier, but business schools realize that. So I think it's better than nothing for sure. But I would look to some of the other options that we just talked about.

Harold Simansky (08:17)
How interesting.

that makes sense. Listen, I've been seeing more and more. I think it's called math for management, which is an online course from Haas, which I think also fits the bill to some degree. Yeah. Okay. So you've maybe retaken your GMAT or GRE or switched to the executive assessment and you've taken possibly an online course. Okay. What else is to be done?

Michael (08:40)
Yeah.

I agree.

Well, one kind of overarching theme is to show interest.

I mean, again, there's probably a lot of qualified people on the wait list. And of course you don't want to be annoying and you don't want to, you know, like send, let's say too many updates, which we can get to later. And you don't want to, you know, like visit the school every week, but visiting the school is certainly something that will show interest.

And if you can't visit, certainly attending these virtual information sessions. And also just talking to students or talking to alum, people in your network, because by doing these activities and gaining more insight and showing that you wanna keep researching the school and you wanna understand why the school is a good fit for you, you can put that in your wait list update. And that's a big...

just like a big positive to do. So I would say you really want to show that you're continually interested in the school and you're still doing things to learn about the school and to figure out why the school is a fit for you.

Harold Simansky (09:55)
Yeah, yeah. Listen, I think we've both had the experience where we'll get somebody who didn't work with us, who says, made it on the wait list and I ended up getting rejected. Then we trying to understand the story a little bit more. And turns out they went on the wait list and there was never any other contact with the school. They basically just waited it out. And that really is not a good strategy when all of a done.

Michael (10:18)
Yeah, because the school isn't going to think that you're interested. And all things equal, they're going to, you know, maybe admit the other person who did show a lot of interest.

Harold Simansky (10:21)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right, right, right. Particularly, I feel like we've been seeing a little bit more of waitlisting almost as a strategic decision by a school. And what I mean by that is they'll waitlist somebody because they're not sure that they're going to come if they actually are accepted.

Michael (10:41)
That's a good point. Yeah, some schools especially have a pretty high percentage of people they wait list because they don't want, you know, that yield to go down. They want to make sure if you're going to give someone an offer that they will accept. And I think how you operate on the wait list is one way to show that you will accept or you won't. So yeah, that's a good point.

Harold Simansky (11:02)
that makes sense. So when you start visiting schools or reaching out to people as you continue to investigate the school, is there some particular angle or approach you should take? I'm going to use the term thoughtful, but how should one think about all these different opportunities to interact with the school?

Michael (11:23)
So on one hand, it would be nice if you haven't already to kind of take an official class visit. On the other hand, if you've already done that and if you want to find a way to maybe kind of sneak into the admissions office, instead of, let's say, giving them a call or writing them an email and saying, like, hi, I'm on the wait list. I'm really interested. I'd love to come into your office and talk to you. That's a little too aggressive and puts a little too much pressure.

If instead, you can say, hey, I'm going to be down in this part of the, if you live in New York, but you want to go to Darden, you can say, I'm going to be in the Virginia area for work. I'd love to just stop by while I'm in the area. That puts a little less pressure. And they still may not say yes, but there's more of a chance. So if you can get in front of them, that would be great.

What I would say is though, can also have kind of somebody else do that.

Harold Simansky (12:24)
Right. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Say more about that. How do you actually do that?

Michael (12:28)
So again, you could have somebody, maybe a current student, even like pop by the office and say, I know this person from high school or from my old job and I've heard he or she's on the wait list and I think this person would be a really good fit for the school for X, Y.

It could be something as informal as that. This student or maybe an alum can also write what we call an informal recommendation letter. And I wouldn't do this more than like one per school, but that's somebody again, just vouching for somebody in writing. Again, a student or an alum, I mean, ideally like a big time alum would kind of even be even better.

Harold Simansky (13:07)
And just to, right, Yeah. I think also there are some schools that invite it. think University of Chicago, and it's not just for wait lists, again, they have, I think it's called Face of the Class or something, where just a very simple form that a current student or recent alumni can fill out that basically says, I know Michael, he's terrific. He'd be a great member of the Booth.

Michael (13:31)
Exactly. Yeah. And like you said, not only just for wait lists, but you know, that can certainly be a little effective. You know, again, I wouldn't annoy them. I wouldn't probably do more than one per school, but you know, again, it does show interest. And, you know, again, if you can find someone who has a little bit of a connection to the school's admissions office, you know, all the better.

Harold Simansky (13:52)
Yeah. What do you say about those schools who purposely say, don't want to hear from anybody, or we don't want to hear from you? What's the approach there?

Michael (14:02)
I would just be more judicious with your communication. I would still not totally just sit there and not do anything. Because if it's two months go by and they don't hear one peep, again, just be really smart about it. When you do write your update, make sure it's really strong and really significant and less frequent.

Harold Simansky (14:26)
Yes.

Michael (14:27)
But again, we do want to say, listen to what the school is telling you. But on the other hand, if they actually say, don't do anything, I probably would do a little.

Harold Simansky (14:36)
Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, it's always sort of this funny balancing act here. And I know our colleague Katie, who obviously went to Harvard Business School herself and has had a little works with a client who ended up in Harvard Business School. She is very aggressive. She says, even though Harvard Business School says, don't, we don't want to hear from anybody else. She's like, yeah, she has people reach out to them. And it struck me as a marginal benefit, but.

Michael (14:53)
Mm-hmm.

Harold Simansky (15:04)
But in the end, it's certainly, as you said, you sort of have to tread lightly in those situations.

So Michael, frequently schools say, here's our waitlist strategy, here's our waitlist policy, and they allow for updates occasionally. How does one think about the updates? What do you say in an update? How often do you update?

Michael (15:24)
So we like to say every four to six weeks. So let's say you get waitlisted today in four to six weeks, I would send a significant meaningful update with new information. And again, if the school doesn't really want to hear from you, then maybe make it more like every six weeks. And so in terms of this new information, you could mention, hey, I retook the GMAT and I earned a higher score. You can also.

Mention maybe some of that school engagement that we talked about like, you know, I Last week I visited campus and I spoke to these students and I learned even more like how these specific courses or resources can really help me achieve my goals What you could also include in the update and we haven't talked about this yet is anything you you've accomplished recent recently professionally So maybe you took on more leadership at work. Maybe you you led a project like a five team project

Maybe you did something outside of your kind of daily scope. Maybe you started training and knew hire. So again, and that's good to do just because it's good to always do well in your job, but that also can show that you are still kind of professionally growing and you're still thinking about ways to improve your whole profile. So again, the more leadership and impact that you can illustrate, the better. So I would include something like that in an update.

Harold Simansky (16:29)
Yeah.

Michael (16:51)
And then of course, extracurricularly as well. If you are part of a volunteer organization, maybe you started a new initiative. Or you started maybe mentoring other under-privileged children. So anything else you can say that you've done, again, that shows the type of person you are.

Harold Simansky (17:09)
No, that certainly makes sense. So Michael, it sounds like you've retaken your test. You've reached out to folks. You've shown interest either going on towards yourself, having people reach out on your behalf, doing a really good wait list update that maybe includes some professional successes or something else you have going on personally. What else should someone think about?

Michael (17:33)
Well, one thing I would say is don't drive yourself crazy by reading those message boards. These wait lists have no transparency and schools do that on purpose. There's not like a ranking and they wouldn't even know what number you are because again, it depends on who they're admitting, it depends on who they're accepting.

Harold Simansky (17:38)
Yeah.

Okay.

Michael (17:56)
I wouldn't drive herself crazy and read a message board and say, look, somebody just got in off the HBS wait list. Does that mean I have no chance? So while we have spoken about a lot of things you can do, there is still some patience involved. I would not all of a sudden start sending updates every two weeks. I would not stop by unannounced or something like that.

there is a lot of patients involved. And what I would say is, think about how long you can actually wait for. Because as you know, there's a chance that, and we've seen this over the years, that somebody will get in a week before classes begin, right, in August. Do you really want to wait that long? What if you're already into your second choice?

Harold Simansky (18:42)
Right, right, right.

Michael (18:48)
Wouldn't it maybe be worth saying, you know what, I'm gonna give my first choice school, I'm on the wait list for till July 1st. And if I hear, then awesome. And if I don't, then I'm gonna ruin myself because I wanna know where I'm living in and I wanna start networking and I wanna maybe go on vacation and not have to worry about it.

Harold Simansky (18:57)
Yeah, yeah, I know that.

Right. Right.

Why? Right, right, right, of course. And very quickly here, business schools are aware of people's timing. They do make an effort, particularly for international students, sooner rather than later. And the flip side, and they do keep people updated as far as how the timing is developing. They may say, hey, we're not gonna let you go, let you know until the end of May, which is not unusual, but they do keep people updated. And honestly, cuts both ways in the sense that I had a client whose partner was already at Wharton.

year ahead, she was already living in Philadelphia, and they were very comfortable letting her know she was accepted like a week before class started. And she were two weeks before class started, and just enough for her to get noticed. I mean, she ended up going, but still it seemed almost a little sadistic on their part to make someone go through something.

Michael (19:45)
Huh.

But I think that was smart that she probably mentioned that in a waitlist update. So she wanted to let them know, I'm in this for the long haul. So that was probably a smart move on her part.

Harold Simansky (20:03)
That's true.

Yeah, definitely. Michael, just very quickly, what does the timing generally look like? If you're waitlisted round one, if you're waitlisted round two, how does the process actually play out?

Michael (20:23)
So if you're waitlisted in round one, then you're gonna be evaluated with the round two candidates. And then if you're a waitlist in round two, you're gonna be evaluated with the round three candidates. But of course you can kind of keep being waitlisted and like we talked about, it can go in the summer, but that's basically the timing. So, know, right now, if someone just got on the waitlist, that was for round one, then, you know, in about a couple months from now.

you know, they're going to be kind of reevaluated. But ideally, you'll want to send an update just before that time, just to give the admissions committee a heads up that, you know, this person's still interested.

Harold Simansky (21:01)
Yeah, yeah, I that makes sense then. And we always, I always get this question, I got this question today that the problem with being on the wait list is timing is thrown off. It just is. If you've applied everywhere for round one to know, then you're not going to know. I had a client today who was accepted somewhere and just based on timing, he will have to decide, does he want to stay on the wait list and pay a deposit somewhere else with the potential of losing a deposit or does he want to pull himself off the wait list?

And I think, listen, it's going to be a tough dilemma. as I tell folks, this is sort of something that this is a type of dilemma you can't really get yourself out of very easily.

Michael (21:40)
Yeah, that's true. know, everybody's different. Like that client you said before, you know, she was okay waiting, you know, till the last day. But, you know, I've had clients who were already in at other schools and they just, wanted to know, you know, where they were going. And it really wasn't worth like that stress as well as like all the logistics that goes behind waiting and not really knowing.

Harold Simansky (21:54)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah. mean, listen, there's some apocryphal stories I'll say that I used to hear about a woman who had packed up her entire truck was moving and she was heading all the way down to North Carolina and she's in the truck and she's got everything ready. And then she got a call literally as she's pulling up to Duke that she got into Tuck and it was just turn the truck around and go back up. And I think she had, yeah, she did. And I think she had some very personal reasons why she wanted to Tuck instead of Duke, but still it's like, wow.

Michael (22:20)
my goodness.

And she did.

Harold Simansky (22:33)
I guess it can reach that point.

Michael (22:36)
You can't, it's less likely. So I want everyone to realize that, you you're more likely to get in way earlier than we've been talking about. But I think it's again, important with this waitlist strategy to figure out, you know, how long can you conceivably wait? you know, in the past, like for my clients in the past who've been on the waitlist, you know, the ones that have gotten in, they've gotten in, you know, in the next kind of round.

Harold Simansky (22:39)
Yes, yeah.

Yep. Right.

Michael (23:03)
And I do think a lot of it has to do with sending in these meaningful updates that illustrate that they really have worked hard over the last two months of boosting their, not just quantitative profile, but in general, their profile.

Harold Simansky (23:18)
Yeah, I think that's right.

I just want to talk a little bit more about what you mean by the makeup of the class or class fit or.

how one should consider their own potential as far as that goes.

Michael (23:31)
Yeah, I mean, that's tough to say because we don't know exactly how the class, how they want to structure the class. But I do think if you are from an underrepresented group and let's say somebody in that group decides not to go to that school, then you have kind of a better chance of getting in. But again, I also don't want to say, or if you're in an overrepresented group, doesn't mean you have no chance of getting it off the wait list.

Harold Simansky (23:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael (24:00)
You know, again, schools just kind of want to wait and see for all the different factors, you the exact class that they're looking for.

Harold Simansky (24:09)
No, no, that makes sense then. And I have to say in agreement with you, I generally have folks find out it's very rare it goes past May. Sometimes there's certainly been a few occasions, it is a fairly, some schools I really pushed to get that end of May information out there as far as the wait list goes. Then there's always one or two, but certainly that feels about.

Michael (24:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Harold Simansky (24:36)
Yeah, definitely. So Michael, is there any point when you pull yourself off the waitlist? Or let me turn that around. When does one actually pull themselves off the waitlist?

Michael (24:45)
Well, when I mean, it's really like when they want to. Sometimes a school will contact someone and say, just kind of gauge their interest. Because to me that the school is saying, hey, we're kind of interested in you right now. But we don't want to send you an offer if you're going to say no. you know, are you still on the wait list on purpose? Are you still very interested? Did you accept sending anywhere else? that's something that, you know,

Harold Simansky (24:55)
Yeah.

Yep.

Michael (25:14)
For example, like my clients have experienced it I've said, that's a good call, you know? So please tell them, yes, I am very interested. Maybe even if I'm in another school, maybe I've even paid a deposit down another school, but this is still my first choice and I'm still hoping. So yeah, I'm still very interested. So until you pull yourself off of it by letting them know, hey, I'd like to no longer be on the wait list, you're technically gonna be on it.

Harold Simansky (25:18)
Yeah, right.

Right. How do you think being on the wait list affects your chances of being a reapple?

Michael (25:48)
I think that, I think it's a good thing because it shows them that especially if you didn't put yourself off that you really are interested in that school. Again, as a reapplicant, which is a whole other podcast, you need to show that you've really kind of improved your profile, but it's certainly not a negative. There's really no negative from kind of staying on the wait list, but that's a good question.

Harold Simansky (26:04)
Yeah, I see.

No, Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. And great. Michael, just as we're wrapping up here, any other final thoughts on being on a wait list or how one should consider it?

Michael (26:23)
I just want to reiterate that if you're on it, you're still in there. You're still truly in the running. These schools are not trying to waste their time and resources. So after that initial frustration, say, OK, I'm willing to put in some effort. And I know that with some hard work, and we've already gotten this far, right? With some hard work, I really think there's still a chance that I can get in. And that's really true. So I wish everybody luck.

Harold Simansky (26:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, I know, absolutely, absolutely. Michael, thank you very much for joining me today. Whether you want to talk to me or Michael, please go to our website at MBAmission.com. Sign up for a free 30 minute consultation, whether it's talking about wait lists, your overall profile, strategies, the business school landscape that particular year, by all means let us know. We'd love to chat with you. Thank you, Michael.

Michael (27:11)
Okay, thank you.