Ep 47 | Private Equity MBA Applicants: What Are Your Chances at Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton?

Many individuals working in private equity have their sights set on Harvard Business School, the Stanford GSB, and Wharton for their MBA education. Business schools love PE applicants -- but does that mean you are guaranteed a spot in one of these elite MBA programs if you work in PE? Does coming from private equity give you an advantage in the application process, or put you at a disadvantage? In our latest episode of the mbaMission podcast, Harold Simansky and Jeremy Shinewald welcomed our friend Liza Weale, former mbaMission consultant and founder of Gatehouse Admissions, to discuss the unique challenges facing private equity applicants.

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Transcript

Welcome to the mbaMission podcast

Liza Weale 0:00

Here's the thing, business schools love private equity associates in the classrooms.

Jeremy Shinewald 0:04

Definitely more applicants skewing towards Harvard, Stanford, or Bust. A little under 400 students at Harvard, Stanford, Wharton coming from private equity. Right. There are obviously way more than 400 PE applicants.

Liza Weale 0:15

In some ways, you are competing for the same spots. Right. And you might be competing against folks in your firm.

Harold Simansky 0:21

You have to make HBS feel like it's the one and only. You really have to communicate that any way you can. Thousands of young professionals in private equity apply to business school every year, especially top programs like HBS, Stanford, and Wharton. With so much competition, the BARTIS scoring a spot is incredibly high. How could someone expect to pass it and gain acceptance? We're bringing in the expert to answer that question and more. Liza Wheel, the founder of Gatehouse Admissions and a former MBA mission consultant herself. She's an MIT Sloan grad with more than 23 years in admission consulting and has helped thousands of applicants get into top MBA programs, including, of course, many private equity applicants targeting Harvard, Stanford, and Warden. She has loads of experience and expertise to share. Liza, really great to see you today. I know we have a lot of things in common, not the least of which we are both MIT Sloan graduates.

Liza Weale 1:20

One thing, just a quick thing. I am wearing my brass rat. I just want you to appreciate that. Don't wear it too often. If you know, you know.

Harold Simansky 1:27

Went on to Bain and Company. I was a number of years ahead of you. And at that point, I left Bain and Company and sort of took this circuitous route to the world of private equity. And I know you deal with a lot, a lot, a lot of private equity clients.

Are PE applicants shoe-ins for Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton?

Harold Simansky 1:41

So when I'm a PE applicant and I really only want Harvard Stanford Award, how should I even think about this? Am I a shoe-in or am I like one of 10,000 PE applicants applying?

Liza Weale 1:54

Uh definitely more the latter. Um there's certainly a lot of applicants um from PE PE who will be applying. But here's the thing business schools love private equity associates in the classrooms. Right. If you think about it, they're super well trained on diagnosing businesses, partnering with leadership teams, getting things done. So the schools really look at private equity applicants as vehicles for teaching the rest of the class, bringing them along on all the topics that are being discussed in the classroom. Right, right. So I always remind anybody coming from private equity like the schools love you. You're starting at that advantage.

Harold Simansky 2:31

Right.

Liza Weale 2:31

But there's that disadvantage that there are literally thousands of other candidates that kind of at first blush, if you're not careful, that are gonna look just like you. And that's really the challenge.

Harold Simansky 2:42

That's right, because the reality of the situation is you as a PE professional are applying to business school as is the person who could look just like you, not even possibly even next to you, if not down the street at one of the what we've all agreed, there's a lot of private equity firms now, which means a lot of analysts apply.

Jeremy Shinewald 2:59

And I think one thing that's important to keep in mind is you're not necessarily competing with the person right beside you. They can take two people from your firm, they can't take three people, they can't take 12, they can't take 15, but it's it's it's not what we're talking about, the cultural reference point that I don't really understand. It's not the hunger games, even though I've never read the book or seen the movies. Yeah. You know, it it really is incumbent upon you simply to be your best, uh, you know, the tallest poppy, and to stand out a little bit. And I always talk about how standing out doesn't necessarily mean some sort of spectacular differentiation. It's very rare that you see someone who's in private equity who's done something else. It's so demanding. Right. You know, two years of banking, occasionally two years of consulting, two years of private equity, um, sometimes three years of private equity, like keeping up with your community activities, whatever. It's hard to be like starting a business on the on the side or you know, winning an Olympic gold medal. Right. The applicants who do well in this process are often those where I was talking about like small turns of the dial, like an accumulation of small wins. Go grades, you're probably not gonna differentiate. It doesn't help to have sky-high grades. Right. But you add that to a little better EMAT score, and the and the and the GMAT averages or GRE averages are higher for this group already. So you're talking about higher than higher. Uh and then you're talking about maybe like a recommendation that is contextualized and can prove you're a little bit better, you're a little bit more of the go-to. Yeah. And then you're talking about community service where maybe some people have been, what I would say, some people are napping, and some people after work, find that way to push themselves or have a personal endeavor that they're pushing themselves towards. And all of a sudden, all of these, all of these, this accumulation, these small turns of the dial help to open the door. Yeah. And that's the way I don't know. I think that's the way that I see private equity applicants succeed. Right. You know, tiny accumulations rather than like some huge blow-up win. Right. Do you want to learn more about your target business schools? Check out OnTrack by NBA Mission, where we have in-depth modules on all the top business schools covering everything from what makes them unique to how to tackle the application essays and short answers, and so much more. You can also practice for interview and video questions, all done on your schedule on demand. We appreciate your dedication to our podcast, and we want to offer you 30% off any on-track subscription. Use the code MBAM Pod to get 30% off any on-track subscription. Check it out at ontrack.mbamission.com.

How to differentiate yourself as a private equity applicant

Harold Simansky 5:27

Yeah, Liz, I was just gonna say, I know Gatehouse has really some great, great relationships with some of the top private equity firms. Yeah. So clearly you have been in that situation where you have two people from the same firm may at first blush look the same in a again, a lot of ways. So how do you even think about differentiating people?

Liza Weale 5:45

Yeah, I think a lot of it is actually like what we always say is like focus. This is the one few, like one time that it's time to focus inward and be all about you, be all about me. Don't worry about all the other noise that's going on around you. Because you can start to psych yourself out and be like, oh, I don't have this, but I have that. But I've had six deals and this person's only closed two, so I'm better, right?

Jeremy Shinewald 6:06

Right, right.

Liza Weale 6:07

Forget about all the noise.

Jeremy Shinewald 6:08

No one is counting deals. Yeah, no one's counting deals.

Liza Weale 6:11

Right, exactly. Or the size of the deal, like, you know, oh, this was uh, you know, two billion versus 100 million versus what you know it and so I think the first um the first tactic is always really digging in to what the source of your drive is, what inspires you. These kind of deeper questions that private like probably in private equity folks haven't thought about much.

Harold Simansky 6:33

Right, right. No, that makes sense.

Liza Weale 6:34

And just to really start there, start pulling on the thread. Um, and you know, eventually people really can start um thinking about those deeper motivations, and that's gonna come out in their application, make for a stronger application is always our strategy. And I will say we do, you're right, um, that we do work with a number of private equity firms, and we're working with all of their associates as they apply. And several of them will find success. Not all of them, not all of them at the same school, I should say. Several of them will find success at the same school. Right. And so, you know, Jeremy, to your point, yes, in some ways you are competing for the same spots, right? And you might be competing against folks in your firm, but it's not a it's only one of you getting in. And if you have that attitude, it's probably gonna you're going, you're going to choose the wrong path and focus on the wrong stuff, focus more on everybody else instead of focusing on you, which I think is essential.

Jeremy Shinewald 7:26

Maybe, maybe we can actually take a step back and go to the for one of the first things you said, which is um you sort of you know joke that uh what did you say about 10,000? You said 10,000 or shoe in. Maybe maybe we can take a step back and just go back to one of your initial comments about like shoe-in versus 10,000 applicants. Right, right, right. But let's contextualize how many spaces there are at top schools. Right. And and let's definitely return to the types of schools that these app that PE applicants select. Because over the last five or six years, we work with a lot of PE applicants, so does Gatehouse. Definitely more applicants skewing towards Harvard, Stanford, or bust. And we're not hearing that from the HR departments, like it's gotta be Harvard or Stanford, so let's come back to that, but let's contextualize.

How many spots are available for PE applicants at the top MBA programs?

Jeremy Shinewald 8:13

Like Harvard has a little under a thousand spots in its class. Right. About 17% of the class is gonna be from private equities. You know, maybe 150 spots in a class. Stanford has about 450 students in a class, and again, I think about 17%. Right. Uh someone else do the math for me as we go. Wharton has about 850, 875, 900 in a class. I think they're a little under, maybe around 15% in aggregate. We're just like a little under 400 students at Harvard, Stanford, Wharton coming from private equity. Right. There are obviously way more than 400 PE applicants. So I think then you have to say to yourself, like, also, okay, that that that may even seem like a lot to some people. 400 spots, but then you say, okay, the schools kind of want to be equitable in terms of men and women. So, you know, let's let's divide that by two. They're maybe around 200 of uh, you know, women and men. And then maybe they want about a third international. I don't know if they're gonna get a third from PE, but they're still gonna want some international, and they're gonna want other other ways that this overrepresented group reflects the class. And you start to look, and and maybe that is what gives people some of that ang some of that anxiety. So definitely not a shoe-in, right, definitely not 10,000. But as you sort of parse and figure out your place in that in that mosaic, maybe your segment actually isn't isn't that big among those among those 400 if you're looking at those schools.

Harold Simansky 9:35

I could see maybe 150 male or female, whatever it is, same number. Domestic applicants. Domestic applicants, 150. So we're looking really at maybe if in your demographic, 150 people uh is based on what sort of the numbers you just so again.

Jeremy Shinewald 9:50

And then even beyond that, you have to say to yourself like the schools want to have uh, you know, uh first generation college students. But you know, they want to have they can't explicitly have diversity of the class in the same way they used to, right? But they're still they're still trying to have diverse classes, so you start to really parse and and the numbers, like you said, you know, your demographic becomes becomes smaller. Yeah,

Do you HAVE to go to HBS, the GSB, or Wharton if you work in PE?

Jeremy Shinewald 10:11

you would assume that would put some pressure on on the applicants to to look, you know, I don't want to say like so pejorative, like further down, like you know, beyond Harvard and Stanford. Right. And we find that they're they're not necessarily like like Chicago booth is eight percent private equity. That's not because they're limiting the number of PE people, it's because they're not getting a trickle down from those schools. And and I think Liza and I were talking before this on you know off camera about how we're having we both have um you know MBA Mission and Gatehouse both have corporate clients that are private equity firms, right? And we're hearing from uh you know from those who manage these programs like it's not Harvard and Stanford or bus. Right, right.

Liza Weale 10:53

Yeah. I mean, I was actually just exchanging email, an email with um a talent manager at a firm, and and I was one of her associates had applied to Harvard and Stanford and was on the wait list at Harvard and was understandably, maybe not understandably, but was freaking out a little bit like I really want to get Harvard. And I went back and forth with the talent manager and said, you know, this is just a good reminder for people to be thinking beyond Harvard and Stanford, or at least to have a frank conversation with oneself to say, am I really gonna be okay if I don't go to business school if I don't get in? That's right. And, you know, I said hopefully the the candidate's thinking about Wharton. And she wrote back, she's like, you know, falling on deaf ears or something like that. Like I've been trying to say this for a long time. So I think the talent managers, they want to see their associates find success, and they know how each of these schools, how tremendous an MBA opportunity can be. So they're like, you know, go ahead and think about other schools. And they're also recruiting or trying to recruit more broadly than just at Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton.

Jeremy Shinewald 11:58

One of the funny things about that is I looked through the career reports and it was something like 17% in at HBS, 17% out into private equity. 17% true. In at Stanford, 17% out. And like, but then it was also like 8% in at Chicago, 8% out. So it's like basically what it was saying is PE people are finding jobs in PE and like the friction is is probably relatively low. It doesn't mean that to a man, every single one of those 8%. Some people say, I love healthcare PE, but now I want to go to healthcare firm. And so people do leave PE, but like, you know, it it to me it suggested that there's this cohort of people like Harvard, Stanford, that's it. Right. And like those who are going into other M7 schools are still finding jobs. And a lot of them are, it's already set before they go. Yeah, and like and like I know a bunch of and we deal with a couple of family offices where I know they're like, we're gonna hire you back, period. We we we want you back. Right. So you know, go to a great school, come back. And and uh and I know that I know that of other of other top firms too, where people have returning offers before their schools are set. Right. Right, right. And so it should kind of reflect that percentage in and percentage out as well. Yeah. But I mean, our job isn't to our job isn't to convince people to go. We're just trying to trying to open their minds up a little bit to other programs.

Liza Weale 13:16

I agree that it's not our job to convince applicants to go for one school or another, but I do, and I'm sure I know you all do this too, is you know, to really encourage that there's a good chance you're not going to business school because there are factors if you are only applying to Harvard and Stanfords. That's right. There is a big chance you're not going to business school. Right. You know, there are factors that are outside of the applicant's control. I do think that, you know, some firms, for whatever reason, the schools may or may not be interested in accepting applicants from those firms. It doesn't mean that that firm is not a great firm, but maybe the schools, you know, they have a lot of stakeholders in this process. They have a lot of alumni at all these different firms. They have a lot of people that they've got to be maybe not keeping happy, but they have to be cognizant of. And so, you know, there are things like perhaps your firm has a lot of representation at the school or has had representation for the past two years. Maybe the school's gonna dial back on your firm and then choose more applicants from another firm. And that doesn't mean you're not a stellar candidate. Right and put all that noise behind you and out of your mind anyway, because it's not gonna change the outcome, and you're still gonna have to do to have a shot, you're still gonna have to do the same amount of work and the same amount of reflection.

Large firm vs. boutique firm: Does it matter?

Harold Simansky 14:28

Right. And listen, one thing I think that we're all sort of lumping together is this notion here of private equity firms, you're coming from a private equity firm. When we talk about that, I think about it on two dimensions. First of all, there's certainly the the big guns, everybody knows the brand names. Yeah. Are they greatly advantaged in this process? Or to flip it around, there's a world of, you know, let's say across the country, there's what, a thousand private equity firms of all different shapes and sizes? Are those two candidates two separate candidates, big firm, small boutique firm, are they looked at differently? Are they looked at the same? Are they is there one bucket for private equity candidates, or is there just many different buckets in the sense of they want the big someone coming from the super big firms and someone coming from, you know, a four-man family office? How does how do how do the admissions committee think about, quote, private equity and the candidates and what they may look like?

Jeremy Shinewald 15:18

If you look at uh prestige private equity firms, it's not that because you're at that firm you get in or have a better shot. It's more that like you have consistently been a cut above to get there, right? So like so I think one of the things you have to keep in mind is that individuals who are at elite prestige private equity firms generally have a very strong track record record of success, success, not only professionally, but like the the overall track record academically, even extracurricularly, that allow them to stand out to get the job at the bank or the elite consulting firm, and then have continued to perform to the point where they can get the job at the elite private equity firm. And so it's like you've you've got these indicators at top at top firms that, like, hey, we're I'm a cut above, and that's what the that's what the schools are looking for. Like what the individuals who are cut above. Right. Doesn't mean you can't have that at a very small uh family office. We have a relationship again with a couple of small family offices. The applicants do exceptionally well. Right. That's also just a different form of of revealing that you're at an elite firm.

Harold Simansky 16:22

That's right.

Jeremy Shinewald 16:23

I I think I I think that also, you know, it's like anything. I mean, we Harvard doesn't accept only 900 Harvard applicants every year.

Speaker 3 16:31

Right.

Jeremy Shinewald 16:31

Uh, you know, they'll they'll accept several people from schools that no one's ever heard of. And so there are going to be firms that the admissions committee maybe hasn't heard of. But if you've had a very, very active role at a smaller firm that someone hasn't heard of before, right? If you have done something unusual, I had an applicant a couple years ago, like a moderately well-known firm, but he was seconded and was on the factory floor helping like uh you know, like helping with their production issues for a lengthy period of time. I think it was like it was close to a year if I recall. Yeah. He just had a great story to tell. It didn't matter what firm he was at.

Harold Simansky 17:06

Yeah.

Jeremy Shinewald 17:07

And so I love lucky. Like, like, like, like not everyone, you can't request that opportunity. You can't get that. Right. So it's like a combination of like prestige helps, right? But you still, you know, kind of am I dating myself here? Like, show me the money, you know, like you gotta you gotta go out there and say, look, I've I've still had like a real thoughtful experience at this firm.

Harold Simansky 17:27

Now, I I frequently talk to my clients about this notion of behind the desk work and in front of desk work. And what I really mean by that, behind the desk work is sort of what an analyst does, right? They spend a lot of time looking at spreadsheets, looking at legal documents, and then there's a few of them who are on the other side of the desk, on the factory floor, actually getting involved, maybe even really being, as you say, seconded in a company that's going through a takeover. That's sort of an amazing type of experience that, again, many private equity c um applicants simply don't have. And that I think is possibly, we never know for sure, another point of differentiation.

How to strengthen your professional profile

Liza Weale 18:03

Although one thing you said is yes, maybe part of this has to do with luck, but we going back to your first question, your very first question about what can private equity applicants do to strengthen their candidacy and to you know have a better shot, they can be proactive of trying to get those experiences. You know, I think you know, all too often we we work with folks who are coming in last minute, say in the summer before they're going to hit submit in the fall, and there's very little time that you can find these opportunities, although you still can. But you know, we what we encourage our clients to do, and just encourage anybody, really even outside of private equity, but even in private equity to find those opportunities to work more closely for with a portfolio company to find something internally at the firm and really step up and own it. That's right. So, yes, it helps, you know, uh sometimes um people, the firm might not do seconds. All right, but are there other ways that you can take a more active role? That's right. Do a little bit of a stand-in CFO role with a portfolio company or something like that.

Jeremy Shinewald 19:08

One of my favorite examples is uh a young woman I worked with a few years ago who's already graduated from Harvard, and you know, she just knew to put her hand up or to listen thoughtfully. And one of her, one of her MDs volunteered with the charitable foundation in that city, like a civic foundation, and they needed a new strategic plan. And she he just happened to mention it. And she was like, I'd like to do that. Yeah, you know, and and and so she just had this like other big, like impactful extra. It was just a matter of listening. It wasn't, I don't think it took her, it wasn't a second job for two years. You know, I think she spent it was it was some sort of sacrifice. She spent her limited free time working and doing this extremely well, but she had this whole other dimension and actually, if I recall, got a letter of recommendation from the executive director of this foundation. Right. And it was like this huge exclamation point, and it didn't come even from asking, it came just from listening, right? Yeah, and so I think enough, a lot of young people in their careers aren't probably it's hard to ask someone who's senior to you who's busy, like, hey, can we talk about how to manage my career here? Right. Um it's a tough conversation to have, and maybe maybe you have to have the right supervisor to allow it, and maybe it doesn't work for everyone. But for those who don't have that person where you can have the conversation, say, I'd like to, I'd like to push myself into areas. What do you need? What can I do to be the highest performing individual that I can possibly be here? What would you like to see from me? Right. You could at least listen and find those opportunities.

Recommendations

Harold Simansky 20:34

Right. And listen, let's carry that forward. When you apply to business school, you're gonna need recommendations. And you can imagine what a recommendation looks like from someone who you've actually really stepped up for and done things that were not expected of you. You can imagine what that recommendation would look like versus maybe somebody else who did a great job, who did a fantastic job, but never took that extra step. And and I think one thing that we have always found is maybe recommendations are somewhat underindexed, I think, for many applicants. This idea here of there's another piece of real estate out there, something else that can tell say just how wonderful you are. And I I feel like they're not you know, not j generally. I mean, in certain instances the case, but frequently I always feel like there's a little bit more room with regard to recommendation in terms of getting them to a different place than maybe most people expect.

Jeremy Shinewald 21:23

And one thing PE applicants have to think about with is that they're they're in an industry where it's very, very likely their recommenders have written recommendations before. This is not new to them. They know they generally speaking know what they're doing. They generally speaking are open to a little bit of input. It doesn't mean you have to ghostwrite it, that's not a good idea for you. But it's really prepping them and reminding them of the things that you that you've done under their watch. You know, we're all our all of our attention spans are short.

Speaker 3 21:51

Yeah.

Jeremy Shinewald 21:51

And we I may not want and may not remember the amazing thing that someone on our team did six months ago. Right. Nothing wrong with saying, hey, remember. You know, remember, it's been a year, but remember I did that, I did that strategic plan. Right. Like that's that's a showpiece for me. I just want to make sure that that you're on that. Yeah, absolutely. It's important, it's important. No, no, no, no question about it. Yeah. We've we're talking a lot

Overcoming weaknesses in your profile

Jeremy Shinewald 22:13

about like the like what I always call the tallest poppy, the individual who stands who stands out. But what about those who have blemishes? Like, is it over? Because it's so like I was saying, the turns the dial. What if you don't have one of the turns of the dial is a backwards turn? You have a you have a lower, wonderful grades, great performance, lower test score. Like what like what's like lower than average for let's say that you were using the old GMAT, the school's average is like 740. The average for PE might be 760. Yeah. What if you have uh 700 and you're a male applicant? Is it is it game over at that point?

Harold Simansky 22:43

Or I'm gonna take it one step further. Let's say you have all of those things and you're working at a no-name, and I hate to use those terms, a no-name private equity firm. Right. What do you do then? And the reality is I've worked with this, I've worked with this a number of times. And business schools also recognize that people mature, that in many ways, some people blossom late. And you may only be, quote, your best self at the age of 25 at that private equity firm. And but it manifests in a very real way. You're the person who then has really mature conversations with the CEO of some of your portfolio companies. Right. Or you're the person who actually, you know, identifies an industry the private equity firm has never looked at before, and suddenly they start talking deals in that industry. I've had that exact experience, sort of a very small private equity firm. This person identified a very small niche piece of a big market. He got really deep into that market, he started knowing all the players in there, and suddenly he's bringing real deals. And at the end of the day, can you imagine the initiative it takes to do that in a private equity firm? Business schools recognize that. Recommenders recognize it when they actually go right to recommendation. And suddenly this person did very well in the admissions process.

Jeremy Shinewald 23:52

Right. So interestingly, like yeah, like sort of no-name-y firm. I remember an individual that I worked with a few years ago, now graduated, uh, went to the GSB, and it was just that there was an interesting niche. Like he he he was he was at a very small firm that was it got like really into I think it was like the insurance or the warranty space or something. Like he sort of had this this very, very particular, particular niche, and just again, sort of hit it hard. Like it wasn't that he was bringing deals like that, but it was just like this experience was a little different. I I got I got really I I guess he got really operational in a way that I think a lot of people were like his his his contemporaries were advisory. They were in an office, yeah, you know, at arm's length putting together decks, and he was able to be like, Look, I, you know, I'm I I really am on top of this and I've learned and accumulated knowledge and have like expertise, and that helped to reveal that maturity.

Harold Simansky 24:53

Right, right.

Jeremy Shinewald 24:54

Um and ultimately he got he was on the wait list for four of five schools and got into the the GSB. That was the only school he got into.

Speaker 3 25:00

Yeah.

Standing out among your PE peers

Harold Simansky 25:01

Liza, if I understand correctly, you've had really good experience with actually working with two people who, quote, look very similar, are at the same firm, yet they both got in. How do you help people distinguish themselves in that particular case?

Liza Weale 25:14

Yeah, and and just to clarify, we work with multiple at a few firms, we work with their entire class. So much more than just two people. It's okay. You know, the entire class is applying, which actually on our end, it's it's interesting because we start to see, we we learn more about the firm, we learn, we know all the recommenders, we you know, we start to understand the the ethos of the different firms, which makes it a lot of fun on our end. But I would say, you know, again, it goes back to really diving into each person's ambitions, their goals, and then figuring out where did they really over-index? What's their sweet spot, where they're where what are the crucible moments that have really defined someone. And it it it's all about figuring out, you know, their voice, their story, making sure that they tell it. There's lots of appetite to accept several people from the same firm. We see it happen all the time. And some of the differentiation will come out in the letters of recommendation too. Sure. Where you know the strongest letters of recommendation are really where somebody jumps off the paper. You can really see, you can you're right in the office with that person, seeing that person.

Jeremy Shinewald 26:21

It's all really fact-based and like undeniable. The examples are so rich and thoughtful that it just this can't be made up. It's not chat GPT. It's not, this is the greatest associate we've ever had. You've got to accept them. It's like here are a bunch of facts that prove that this person is better than others.

Liza Weale 26:38

Which we should talk, we should talk about chat GPT at some point because that is definitely uh getting in there. But the to your point, yeah, and I think um that is what it very much will make it harder for a school to reject, you know, they'll they'll be able to see the difference between these different applicants and find a spot. If they're superstars, there's going to be a spot in the program for them, even if they're coming from the same firm.

Harold Simansky 27:00

Let me just pick up on one thing, which is this idea here is an applicant, whether they're from private equity or somewhere else, they have to tell this really authentic, rich story. And the reality is where does that come from? It comes from them doing a lot of introspection work, a lot of brainstorming. So if an applicant says to you, oh, what should I really be focusing on? Well, part of it is sort of what you should be focusing on as a person. Understand who you are. Really get yourself thinking about, okay, what does my future look like? What do I like? What don't I like? And at the end of the day, that is going to not only be beneficial for you as a person, it's also going to really help as you write that unique recommendation. And we've talked about it in the past is I don't want to hear about um sort of over-represented demographics. I don't want to hear about there's, you know, a thousand private equity applicants, because the reality is there's only one you. I know it's a cliche, but there's only one you.

Jeremy Shinewald 27:47

And yet I would just say this, like, but you have to you have to cultivate that you, right? And so if there's anyone listening to this today, you know, the the you know, the the what's the the best time to plant an all tree is a hundred years ago, right? Like it's a hyper-competitive pool. You it's it you can't start working two months before you apply. And again, we keep saying, we go to firms, I I I give presentations on long-term private equity, like on long-term planning for private equity associates, so people kind of understand what they need to do. I I do get people who call me a year later and they go, I love the presentation. I wish I had done all that stuff, right? Right. And so, yeah, and so and and and so you you you have to this is a competitive group. It it doesn't you have to live every day to get into business school, right? But you know, we're talking about lots of those incremental benefits. Right. Yes, take the GMAT or GRE early so you have you have time to do your best on it, but that's an easy one. Right. Get involved in your community, be listening or putting your hand up at work, get involved in your work community on an extracurricular basis if your firm has a charitable board or there's associate training you can run or whatever it might be. Absolutely. Um, you know, your own personal endeavors, like these are the things we talk about on in terms of long-term planning. Right. They're things that are more critical when you're in a hyper, hyper competitive. That's true.

Harold Simansky 29:05

That's right.

Jeremy Shinewald 29:06

The one other thing I think is is really important also, we have a lot of data from the private equity applicants we've worked with. Male applicants tend to do better to matriculate the end of their third year of in it might be two years of banking or consulting, two years of PE, maybe a third year of PE. Again, that's sort of like I'm a cut above. Not everyone made that. Right. I'm right. I always say it's almost like the uh the sophomore in basketball playing against himself as a junior. I've I've got a year more of coaching, I'm a year stronger, I mean I'm even a little taller. Right, right.

Harold Simansky 29:37

And also just a m more mature person in the classroom.

Jeremy Shinewald 29:39

Yeah, more mature. And so male applicants tend to do to tend to do better. Female applicants, I think, tend to, it can be okay if they've got one year and they're applying, yeah. But male applicants tend to do better. Maybe they've they've moved on, maybe they're at a at a small startup or they're in corp dev somewhere. Yeah. Um, but they tend to do better in their in their applying after their second year to get in after their third year. And I'm sure you found that as well.

Liza Weale 30:02

We have, we certainly have, and that's something I'm very open with when people are thinking about should I apply this year or should I hold off? And there is that truth that you probably, if you just are in your first year of private equity, you're probably going to be stronger. That doesn't mean you're not going to find success. There's always that gray area. Does not mean that you won't find success this year, but you are going to be stronger next year. When it's a little bit up to you on when to apply.

The importance of introspection

Liza Weale 30:25

I want to go back to something you were asking about, Harold, of just this thought process and the introspection that people do. And I think sometimes there's this tendency to think that you have to have the biggest, best stories. And you were talking a little bit about that, Jeremy. And I think sometimes people really struggle with, they feel like they have the boldest stories, right? They need to be the best private equity associate and they need this amazing, you know, job on a deal that that um went to committee. And we were working with this client who was at a um middle market private equity firm, and he was a super solid applicant. And the first cuts of his essays were it was back in the the former HBS essay where it was one journey. And it was making a mountain out of six different molehills, and it was so like over the top, and it was like, you know, taking this really small thing and being being very overwrought about it.

Speaker 3 31:24

Right.

Liza Weale 31:25

And you know, because I think where he was struggling was having confidence in his story. Yeah. And he had this sort of this beautiful journey that started with the way his grandfather had inspired him, um came over from Greece, and just how he really used integrity and and listening and being humble as a way to shape his career. Yeah. But that story isn't loud, right? That story isn't bold, but it actually, when it was told, when he really reflected into his inside, that was a story that gave me goosebumps when I read.

Jeremy Shinewald 31:55

Right. This might be it might be a good, a good opportunity for Laza and I to shill for our own free book, which is we wrote a book on successful Harvard Business School and Stanford Business School essays. And there are a couple of examples that I know of clients of mine who are in that book, including one about puzzling. Now, the names of that book are disguised. I can't remember his disguised name, but if you go to the book as a PDF and search for puzzling, this is an individual, this individual just had a passion for puzzles. He was he was at a at a at a PE firm. And you know, he he talked about this kind of motif around solving puzzles. It was true to him. It was very true. He had solved a variety of puzzles, and and he talked about this the complexity of a structure of a deal that he kind of like he figured out how to how to tweak and change so that his firm could actually win that mandate. His recommender talked about the end. It wasn't like mind-blowing, but he also he was critical, he was impactful in that moment. But he also talked about the role of puzzles throughout his life. And I mean, he got puzzles as gifts. People were leaving puzzles on his desk sometimes. It wasn't it if it's not that like if the next client is like, oh, well, I'll start talking about puzzles. It doesn't work that way. This per that's this person's lived experience, right? But it made for a very thoughtful essay for this individual. And it wasn't again, it wasn't that he had started you know the Twitter replacement uh and and had climbed Mount Everest. He just was thoughtful and really understand who understood who he was. And so when the admissions committee read his application and he got into Harvard, um, they just were like, Yeah, that's a real person. This is an interesting person. There's a person who's been like figuring things out throughout his life among this cohort. Yeah.

Harold Simansky 33:32

Seems like an interesting guy to have in the class. Right. One thing I do want to highlight here is again, this is a very human process. And we've had admission committee members say to us specifically, I want to like the person. Yes, right. I just want to like the person. It doesn't matter if it's a private equity consultant, investment bank, or whatever it is, with many applicants, sometimes it's just really hard to communicate likability. And I want every applicant to really think about that, in particular private equity applicants who, in fact, there's not a huge premium on likability.

Jeremy Shinewald 34:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's right. I mean, I think because I think you've got a lot of people who've just been very motivated, their heads been down, they're working extremely hard.

Speaker 3 34:07

Yeah.

Jeremy Shinewald 34:08

And and and and they're successful in a not just a cutthroat, but in an environment where they just they have to be serious and professional all times. It's like, you know, sometimes they're take a step back and they're like, okay, yeah, like I haven't I haven't a lot of time to think about who I am, what I'm doing. What I'm about. If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nba mission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you.

How to present your post-MBA goals

Jeremy Shinewald 34:58

This actually leads to something that I think we should talk about, which is goals. Because I think a lot of PE applicants find it hard to contextualize interesting goals because they're like, Well, I'm in private equity. I want to go back to private equity. Right. How do you how do you ensure that goals pop if someone's like in private equity and wants to go back?

Liza Weale 35:19

The first question I always ask them is to start thinking about the impact you want to have, the legacy you want to have. And then I say, okay, legacy is a big word. Let's not, you know, freak somebody out. But focus on the problems you want to solve, the kinds of companies you want to work on. Focus on the the impact of the results, not the what are you doing. Because I think there is this tendency to to think, oh, I I want to go back. And it's fine, it's fine. If they want to go back, it's great. There's a lot of hungering.

Jeremy Shinewald 35:49

Maybe we can stop there and say that I think there's there's some sort of like guilt complex in wanting to go back, like, oh, it sounds like the only goal I have is one to make money if I go back to private equity. There are people who find the work interesting. They find the work, they find the work challenging. Yeah. They, you know, are helping to help them to build companies, helping to solve operational problems. Like there are all sorts of ways. You just have to know, you just have to know what it is about you that you enjoy.

Liza Weale 36:12

And I also say I think there's also this misconception that I'll have a better shot if I say I'm going to business school to change my career.

Speaker 3 36:19

Right, right.

Liza Weale 36:19

So they they, you know, sometimes it's like, well, I think I should say this. Is that what you really want to do? Lo and behold, it's not. They do just want to go back and invest. And one thing I always say is that, you know, the the private equity firms, those are a lot of hungry mouths to feed on the other side of this process. Right. There will be a lot of recruiters, and there the schools are happy to keep those stakeholders happy. So they're not going to discount your application because you want to return to private equity. But you do have to think about what is like, again, where's that source of drive? Right. What is the um output of it and what what's that going to really, how is that solving a problem? Or what is it that inspires you about private equity? Write to that instead of a I want to become a partner at this firm and continue to do investing. Focus on the underlying what it is you're hoping to achieve.

Harold Simansky 37:11

Right. And this notion, too, of specificity is credibility. So when someone says to me, I want to go into private equity, from whether they're coming from private equity or somebody who does not have that background, I say to them, private equity is really big. It's really big and mean all sorts of different things to all sorts of different people. So you want to go back to private equity. Why? Is there an industry that really gets you excited? Is there a size company that you see there's an opportunity? Like, help me understand what you mean by private equity. Because at that point, maybe we are able to find that passion that really will be a great foundation for an essay.

Jeremy Shinewald 37:42

And also, you have to be careful in your best, why you want to go to business school. Because if you're just saying, like, oh, I want the network, and like you're kind of coming across and saying, My friends make me make me do this, or I kind of need this little you know stamp on my on my on my resume. And there's you've got to be able to say, like, look, like Stanford says why Stanford? Wharton says why Wharton.

Speaker 3 38:02

Yeah.

Jeremy Shinewald 38:03

Harvard doesn't actually ask you why Harvard, right? But you've got to be able to say, look, like I there is an academic need. There is there's stuff I need to learn to be successful uh in in my career going forward. And you have to be aware of that. And it can't just be like, oh, Wharton has two finance classes I want to take. Right. If you're saying you want to start in your own private equity firm at some point, you know, maybe you need to understand how, like, you need to go deep on organizational behavior to understand how to create a certain culture at your firm, or you know, maybe you need to take operational courses, you know, whatever it might be. Maybe you need to take finance classes. That's fine. Right. You need to have a perspective on that and some thought on that.

Harold Simansky 38:42

Right. And create a curriculum for yourself. At the end of the day, go look at what business schools teach you, what they teach private equity professionals, and then see if that's what you want. Because if it is, that's also something to communicate.

Liza Weale 38:52

Quick points. You know, schools recognize, I always say one thing I always say is like they recognize things might change when you go to school. Right. But you need to show that you have a plan to fall back on in case things don't change. You know, they're reload, they're they sometimes say, I want to go start a business, I don't know what, but I want to go, you know, you need some more specificity on um than that. And you need to give the schools confidence that you at least have some marching orders that you're ready to follow and chase when they're as opposed to you know just wandering wandering around. So it's always fascinating to see when clients, um, past former clients graduate to see what they end up doing. And some will invariably change directions completely. Maybe they played um something that they felt pretty confident about when they submitted their application, but once there, they you know, decided to start to take that leap and start that company. Um, but I also love when people are right and they're doing exactly what they said they were going to do. I was just exchanging emails with a client of ours from about two or three years ago, very interested in healthcare. He was in private equity in Boston and focused on healthcare. And he was originally from the Midwest, and his goal was to really help bring better healthcare to the Midwest. So we wanted to go back into private equity, but focusing on healthcare and bringing it to more rural areas in the middle of America. And I was just emailing him and he and he said he got a job focused on healthcare. And I just was like, you you you go. Like that's that's great when you do have that vision and you leverage business school to actually get there. It was just really inspiring to see that.

Applying to HBS and the Stanford GSB (and Wharton!)

Jeremy Shinewald 40:26

One thing we haven't talked about is um you know the schools, Harvard and Stanford in particular, are competitive with each other. And you kind of have to play your cards close to your chest if you're applying to both. Because if you if you indicate we see that. Yeah, we have to say that. If you indicate too strongly that you're gonna go to one, the other one probably will reject you. And like the schools are known to reach out to staffers and kind of like try to get a sense of where is this person leading, leading before before they accept that person. And I think there's a burden, a little bit of a burden on someone who is uh you know, based in New York, let's say, or based in San Francisco, there's a bit of a burden on the person to really say, like, I'm gonna make this move. Like I'm I'm not wed to Palo Alto. And you know, if you're if you're at a uh you know Silver Lake or something like that in in Palo Alto, then you you might have to do some subtle like persuasion and convincing that you're gonna that you're gonna like move it move across the country and you really, really want to be at Harvard. They it's not they're gonna reject you. There are gonna be some people who can make the move across the country, but it's just it's it can't you can't your entire thing can't say my identity Yeah, no, I think that's right. Based in the West Coast, right? I want to jump to Harvard for two years and then I'm gonna go back.

Harold Simansky 41:47

They're not gonna believe I I'm living that right now, to be honest with you. I'm living that right now, where I have a client of mine who is going to be interviewed at HBS. He really wants to go to Stanford, and I think he has a really good shot at Stanford. You never know, of course. So I've said to him repeatedly, you have to make HBS feel like it's the one and only. You really have to communicate that any way you can. And sometimes it's specificity around what you're actually gonna do there. Sometimes it's even just talking about here's how I see my future laying out, and has more of a Harvard feel than a Stanford feel. And I think that is something real.

Jeremy Shinewald 42:18

And sometimes sometimes it's even something as simple as like, you know, um, you know, I want to go to Wharton. You know, I I visited my cousin on campus so many times. I've walked around the campus, I visited myself, yeah. I, you know, whatever it might be, just to say, like, look, this isn't something so foreign to me, you know, like I'm I'm that's right. I'm in San Francisco. It's plausible that I've moved to Philadelphia. I think I think I think Wharton is actually very, very sensitive about that. And well, I I've often said to some PE applicants, the only way you don't get into one of three schools is if, you know, luck of the draw, you just, you know, you don't get into Harvard or Stanford and Wharton thinks that you're only going to go to the others.

Harold Simansky 42:54

Again, I have that experience. It's it's I've certainly had ding reviews where I've talked to people, looked at this exact situation. I mean, exactly. They thought they were good enough to get into Harvard and Stanford, they sort of dismiss Wharton, they sort of did it as an afterthought. Wharton could not reject them faster. Yeah. That was really the point.

Jeremy Shinewald 43:11

I haven't visited, I don't know the resources very well. And when Wharton says to me, Who have you talked to in our community? Yeah, I don't have any answers for them.

Harold Simansky 43:18

And the great irony is Wharton asks, why Wharton? It just goes out there and it asks, why Warden? And then not to really take that question seriously.

Jeremy Shinewald 43:26

And then you say, What are you going to contribute to Wharton? They're basically they're two essays where all about them. And if you can't prove it to them, yeah, yeah.

Liza Weale 43:33

Harold, I have something to add, just uh what you were saying about your client who you were saying, you know, go in and show HBS that it's about them. Um, I was working with a client a few years ago who was waitlisted at both Stanford and Harvard. And she was convinced that Harvard was going to be the one if either of them accepted her, right? It was going to be Harvard. She was from the East Coast, she had some heavy hitters. Do we have a chance we should talk about that? She had some Heavy hitters put in a note of support on her behalf. And in her mind, she almost took the foot off the gas when it came to GSB. And she, you know, you know the wait list process. There's a lot of updates. You need to show them that you're serious about them. But in her mind, she she was flabbergasted because she actually she got accepted off the wait list, which is no small coup from GSB. And she almost assumed because she was accepted at GSB, she'd get off the wait list from HBS the next day. She was actually dinged from HBS. And she, it was kind of this moment of wow, never not only never, you know, count your chickens before they're hatched, but also really like, you know, you we don't really know what the schools are looking for when it gets to that level. They want to they want a little bit of everything in those classrooms.

Jeremy Shinewald 44:46

Yeah, and like from what we know of the schools that they don't really know what they're looking for. It's sometimes it's like, we we we love all the we've got 25 candidates. We can just we can only accept eight at this point, right? Right. We just we it's just someone's not gonna make it. And uh it happens. I mean, I thought I had a I had a uh a West Coast um uh private equity applicant from a large firm you know reapply. He got in. He was the last person on your wait list, and he got applied.

Harold Simansky 45:11

It's my understanding that somewhere between 15 and 20 percent of all Harvard Business School students applied at least twice, if not more. That might include the two plus twos, I think. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But it also includes Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, most successful company in the world. Can we all agree to that? Or one of them? Yeah, yeah. Rejected 10 times from Harvard Business School. So the reality is, listen, this is tough to get back to some of the key things we said is you have to tell a great story. It requires a lot of introspection. It really requires you to really be attuned to what you want to do. And the reality is this that entire process, introspection, defining your goals, thinking about how one school may serve your needs versus another, is hard to do. And that's why we get to MBA mission and some of the things that we do. And again, not too much of a commercial, but the reality is if you're in such an incredible applicant pool, such a competitive applicant pool, and if your entire life you've always pushed for that one extra piece, um, again, without really sounding like turning this into a commercial, the reality is you may need some help telling that great story, that story that's really gonna be required.

Jeremy Shinewald 46:17

For sure. And and we can give the commercial uh to to Liza as well and say that we think that you know the we've seen, we we know the outcomes. And so, you know, Gatehouse has had a tremendous record of success with private equity applicants. That's right. And is trusted by several top private equity firms. And um, you know, we we just it's it's a hyper competitive process where every increment of difference makes uh you know could will make the overall difference. And uh people would be wise to at least take advantage of the free half hour with either of our firms.

Liza Weale 46:48

I mean, I have to say, gentlemen, it's great talking shop with you. We could do this, you know we could do this for 16 more hours. We have so many stories to share of our past clients and and what we've seen, the pitfalls and and how they've actually, you know, carried the day and got the acceptances that they want. So thank you so much for letting me come in and and join today's talk. It was uh it was great. And definitely reach out to us because obviously everyone at this table cares a lot about uh those applicants to Business School.

Harold Simansky 47:16

Thanks for watching. Absolutely. Thank you very much for Eliza being here today.

Jeremy Shinewald 47:19

If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nba mission.comslash consult. We look forward to working with you.