The mbaMission Podcast

Ep 54 | How to Nail Your Post-MBA Career Goals

• mbaMission • Season 2 • Episode 54

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Most business schools will ask you to discuss your career goals in your MBA application. Why do MBA programs ask about your goals when they know that your plans may change while you're in business school? And how do they evaluate your goals? In our latest episode of the mbaMission podcast, Harold Simansky, Susan McInerny, and Jeremy Shinewald discuss what makes a "good" post-MBA goal, and why it is critical to identify goals that are right for YOU, rather than presenting goals that you think the admissions committees want to hear.

00:00 Developing your post-MBA goals
00:42 What are good post-MBA goals?
04:53 Matching your goals with a school's recruitment resources
06:39 Backup goals
07:21 Proving your interest and credibility 
09:08 Post-MBA job recruitment 
12:39 Use your goals to amplify your story
13:35 Identify the "why" behind your goals
18:13 Connecting your short-term and long-term goals

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in a very selective admissions process they need to put a stake in the ground around what you bring into the classroom If you want to again achieve these aspirational goals you have to have a roadmap for how you're going to do it The school actually doesn't need to necessarily be able to get you there as long as you have a really really wellthoughtout plan that you've described Lots of people say private equity or they want to do BC Why think about you're giving someone a photograph of yourself 10 years down the road Is the photograph that you just created blurry you want to bring it into as tight focus as you

can Susan so I know you have this all the time You work with people in PE and VC in particular What are good post MBA goals what do you like to see and what do you like to hear you know the the words I always use are aspirational and achievable Yeah The school needs to know that that it's achievable in that the arc from past to present to future can make sense for you Um and they need to know that you need them Right a lot of people come into a consult and say "Look I really want to expand my network I'd love to meet funders and c co-unders founders for my future long-term goal." Um and that is absolutely a benefit of going to business school Right no caveat there at all Right And everyone knows that including the admissions committee They know you're coming up for that but they need to know why you need a seat in a classroom they've spent spent millions of dollars putting together Right Right And so you have to get clear No one's going to hold you to these goals Right You can change them six times after you get in but you have to draw an arc that ends in that future both short-term and long-term goal And I always say part of it is that in a very selective admissions process they need to put a stake in the ground what you bring into the classroom They no more want the entire class to be made up of people who have PE experience in the past than they want the it to be made up of people who only want to go into PE in the future Right where every school is similar to me is that they are trying to put together as diverse a set of opinions and perspectives as they can and backgrounds to make that discussion rich So that's why they're important to me Yeah know that and and Jeremy obviously you see a lot of people talking about their postNBA goals and I think you certainly have some um experience as far as things that are more realistic and things that are less realistic How do you help your clients think about that one of the things that I that I often say to clients who say to me are my goals plausible I say are they plausible to you do you think do you believe like I've been I'm not an expert in every single you know in the lineage of every single career right do you believe that you could go from marketing to at Nabiscoco to you know AI development at at Google that sounds like pretty farfetched to me I mean that one I probably would give would give push back on right away But my point is that like it's got to sound plausible to you and and if you're not sure then talk to someone in that position and say "Hey you know I'm looked at by LinkedIn and I found someone I was in marketing at at Nabiscoco and I'm going I want to go into equity research covering consumer goods Is that possible?" Like is that would someone say "I've got knowledge of consumer goods from Nabiscoco and that is applicable." Talk to someone at Equity Research and and find out And if it is you're probably on the right track I think where people go wrong is every couple years there is the soup dour And you know that's right It was sustainability certainly Yeah And in in in it was in 2000 in the early 2000s when I started this business it was uh consumer internet goods And then by the by the mid 2000s and late 2000s you had people who had no connection to finance because the financial world was going bananas before it fell off a cliff you know they were they were saying "Oh I want to start doing you know impact investing and I want to start I want to change the financial world because they didn't have a direct connection to finance." Bottom line is these these things change Right now everyone AI AI everyone's everyone's in AI Are you really in AI is this really something that can be done right and we were talking this earlier but um the old uh the old admissions director at at Harvard Business School kind of said to me rofily one day um you know she had a very biting wit and she said to me "Sometimes I read these applications and it sounds like someone is saying I want to be in a band." It's like "Yeah I want to be a rock star one day." And so it's it it just it sounds it sounds naive because it's like I'd like to do that It'd be great if it happened I'd like to be an entrepreneur I'd like to start the next Google Who wouldn't that would be great right is that fundamentally who do you have any evidence on this on your resume is there is there ability is there an ability for you with this resume and an NBA yeah It's always like why should I believe you when also and I think the other lens to put on that for people to think about is what are the recruiting resources toward that end that a school offers Absolutely Have they ever placed anybody in that job exactly Can they actually help you get there absolutely And let's say they have placed some people in that jobs You understand what a business school class looks like Are you going to be more likely to land that job than a variety of other people who might have more aligned backgrounds for that position so I think that sometimes that helps people bring it down to reality a little bit right if you want to be one of our success stories sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application That is not a sales call but rather your first session with one of us for free We can give you a profile evaluation answer specific questions about the process review your resume talk about your school choices and so much more Sign up at mbammission.com/cconult We look forward to working with you As well as the employment report I tell frequently folks listen take a look at the employment report go on LinkedIn you have you by all means you have permission to stalk people on LinkedIn and at that point you start seeing okay what's realistic is this person got a job at Fizer he was in this role at that point he did this so if you tell me you want to go into biotech well how do people who graduate that business school actually get to biotech absolutely and I think your point about going to the career report is a good one especially now where you know right now the the job market on campus is tougher and so you know going the career report but also reading the news and knowing say for example that consulting really is pulled back on hiring right now so that's not to say that you can't say that you want to enter consulting but you might want to equivocate a little bit that doesn't mean show uncertainty and it has to be related you can't say I want to go into consulting or I want to go into consumer package goods that's that's not going to work you know but I want to go into into consulting at a at a major firm as an alternative uh I would I would attempt to go into corporate strategy at a at a you know assuming you got the background of course but like there's something somewhat related you know in in those fields that will allow you to get there um you know you can't just sort of say like yeah I want to go to Mackenzie right that doesn't work anymore right no really work always but it works even less now right no it's got to be some connection between skills and experience and I also always tell people that good goals in my mind What gives credibility to goals is something in the way you write it that says this person has proven to me their interest and their depth in this subject They've looked at the space they want to go to They've identified you know opportunities challenges gaps that they're fired up to attack and they've conveyed that through the application in a way that makes it very real and it makes it very credible I can't tell you the number of applications where people I talk to say I want to go into private equity or I want to go into a hedge fund And I remind them private equity is very big Hedge funds are very big Are we talking yeah Are we talking a braw fund are we talking macro fund a long short fund and if you don't know what I'm saying if you don't know what these words mean then immediately we sort of have a problem So instead turn it instead Great point Instead turn it around and say actually I want to go into a macro hedge fund because I study international relations Issues around global issues that manifest themselves in business are really interesting to me Wow that sounds much more impressive It's much more credible than just saying "I want to go to a hedge fund where I want to go in a hedge fund dot dot dot I want to make a lot of money." Yeah Right Exactly And and even take that further you know I want to go into into firms like A B and C And I've spoken to someone there right like you know and having there I was excited to hear that they're hiring uh international relations majors with you know with MBAs these days whatever theoretically Right Right Right But um No No That's right There's got to be some like the more knowledge you can show that you can get the job like they're not just it's not what you say before you said aspirational and achievable Achievable Right It's not just aspirational Right It's achievable and and achievable It's your job to lead a horse to lead a to lead a horse to water in that one Yeah And I think it's you know get to the end of the process people are in and they call and say hey what should I be thinking about one of the first things I tell people because I saw people do this poorly is a lot of people get in and they're like "I'm done It's going to be delivered to me They're going to hand me the job that I always tell people you're not going to want to hear this but you have to invest in the recruiting process as much as you hopefully just did in the application process It is not going to be delivered on a platter to you You get there on I do you know people I've had some version of this like okay I'm done with consulting I don't want to be in consulting I'm done with banking I don't want to be in banking anymore I'm going to go to campus I'm doing this to career change They get there and everything kicks off Everything kicks off and they haven't done any homework and suddenly they get a job offer because they've been in consulting before in with a consulting firm and they're like I don't know why I did this I don't know why I'm back in consulting I just got nervous that I wouldn't get another job So it's like you have to be disciplined do all the homework beforehand and have somewhat like live leads going on like you have to if you want to go from whatever I don't it doesn't matter you want to go from consultant to to private equity that that's that is achievable in certain cases you should be having you should have your network alive before you get there right you should have several private equity firms who know who you are and you should be working on that independently of the school you should you should have your maybe there are one or two firms that are coming to campus but maybe there are a whole world 25 that are not I know Exactly right And that's what I tell people about private equity all the time Private equity is actually there's a huge number of private equity firms and many of them are regional And when I say huge it's like Memphis Tennessee has like five private equity firms And if you you can make a great story with your goals being private equity but you have to get down to that level of detail You have to be really granular I'm from Memphis I know these folks You know I I've had conversations with them If you want to again achieve these aspirational goals you have to have a roadmap for how you can the great leaping off point for a broader point which is the school actually and and wait a sec hold hold your hold your fire The the the school actually doesn't need to necessarily be able to get you there as long as you have a really really well thoughtout plan that you've described So if you were to say I'm coming to I'm a I'm the son of a manufacturer and I want to join a small manufacturing company They they are not recruiting at you know at at business schools right but I'm excited I want to join an under $20 million manufacturer and I am I'm coming to the school because your school has excellent operational resources and whatever your actual the actual reason is I am I am prepared to do this hunt on my own and I recognize that that this is uh that that this is going to take diligence and that I that I'm but I'm coming to this school with a reason because it's got you know manufacturing firms that you know in the in the region whatever it might be you're at least sending a message like I know what I'm in for and I and I know I I I I I'm I'm already doing the leg work and that's fine Like they don't you don't you don't have to fall I've gone I've ind I've overindexed on manufacturing and my point is you don't have to only be looking at you know at consulting banking tech marketing those those are 65% of the jobs that people are going to get in every class But if you have your own thoughtful niche that's fine just express that you understand that it's a niche and you can you're going to you're going to drive your own process to get there right and use your goals to really amplify pieces of your story right at the end of the day if you want to go to private equity manufacturing uh you can use that to sort of indicate the why If you can then talk about your father being in manufacturing If you can then talk about your desire to help sort of the piece of the country A guy who was at a major private equity firm His his family was was in a was in a um in a manufacturing business They did like installation of like huge infrastructure projects like like telephone poles and and sewage and stuff like that And and he was at a private equity firm and he got seconment to a to the factory floor of one of one of their portfolio companies He had an awesome story to tell about why he wanted to go into manufacturing and he did he did want to go and and it it was really sincere and thoughtful that job there aren't a lot of manufacturing companies coming to campus but in this case it was just about creating that thoughtful connection Mhm I think the purpose piece of it is important too Like lots of people say private equity or they want to do VC why the to your point Harold the why is important What's the impact you want to leave what's the gap you see that needs to be filled right it's not just that you want to be investor and probably line your own pockets nicely What is the what is the goal for you at a higher level because I always say you know you know and the goals play heavily in the interview process We're kind of in interview season right now So that's been a big topic of conversation but um you need to make them relatable You need to level yourself so you're not too much in the minutia So you provide enough context for somebody I always say you are successful in your goals and certainly as in how you convey them in an interview If you co-opt someone into your story if I leave an interview with you feeling like I am now his cheerleader I want to do whatever I can from a distance tangentially to help make that happen because it makes sense to me I understand it and I'm cheering for him to succeed That's right Not to mention the fact that if you have a story that's really wellought out that actually shows some grit that you know what you're up for Well just broadly you're a really compelling person You know you know you're a person doesn't sit back You're a person who's going to sort of you know grab the the what's it called grab the brass ring I from that perspective I want you in my class I I like that And like it it values are wonderful We want you to have great values but you don't need to be saving the world in what you're doing at all times You can be like what have you had exposure to so we keep sort of reverting back to private equity but like if you're if you're at a private equity firm and you've had exposure to video games that's one of the portfolio companies that you that you've worked with It's like okay can you talk about about a and you've really enjoyed that that that's that's the deal you enjoyed the most you talk about moving to a a consumer electronics or a consumer focused you know technology firm if you've had exposure to healthcare it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to totally reinvent the healthare system through private equity And I think a lot of people try and make that leap It can just be like look I'm I found this to be gratifying I've seen the impact of my work I I've seen the way this company is more efficient and has increased its research by and this is what's interesting to me Yeah Exactly It doesn't have to be the loftiest goal Yeah Right And yeah and know the skills I need to develop and the best place for me to develop them is business school Yeah So from that perspective and it's got to be you've got to say to yourself like could this withstand basic scrutiny not like not crazy scrutiny No one no one's going to be saying to you like defend it Harold Defend it But in the interview are you can you say like look yeah I want to go I want to I want to go into into a private a smaller private equity firm focused on consumer electronics Okay Well if you had that experience you can defend it Okay Well like like which ones oh why oh that's interesting Oh Oh you know that that firm is doing this interesting thing This great right right Right Yeah Yeah No listen I think that's right And also it does have to be an outgrowth of what you've done I I want to be an entrepreneur Well sometimes I look at resumes and there's absolutely nothing entrepreneurial Nothing whatsoever And it's like you want to be an entrepreneur it's it's the old sort of why Like that doesn't make sense to me Like do you know what it takes to be an entrepreneur like do you know the the the stress the heartache whatever it is Is there any like is there any evidence here if you are you know just going to like I don't know a bunch of TED talks or something like that is that's not that's not background in entrepreneurship Yeah No I think that's right Think about you're giving someone a photograph of yourself 10 years down the road Is the photograph that you just created blurry or you want to bring it into as tight focus as you can I need somebody to walk away and be like "Okay I can see it I can see where he's heading I don't know exactly how it's going to unfold or exactly what the impact is going to be but I see it and I get it No that's right And I think you really as a you have the opportunity to really connect the dots for somebody where the final dot is those goals and and you could even have a sort of a background that need not lead to that particular goal unless you really take your time to explain it And what I mean by that and just as as an example I had a client who was really into online gaming and and it was something that he did sort of part-time but he was very successful at it He was very successful at it So he wanted to tell that story At the same point then he wasn't sure where he could take these skills So he did the research and that's when he began to recognize wow these are the same skills that I see in like equity analysis Right So at this point then he's able to really do two things with his resume or his application is one let me share with you something I find really interesting far more interesting than that job to be honest with you It's sort of something I spent a lot of time on It's online at the same point Let me also tell you that the skills that I'm talking about here are applicable Yeah Yeah It's it's they actually I can and the way they're applicable is in my um future career It's always important to think about goals not just goals in a very general sense but short-term goals medium-term goals even long-term goals right and I think I think you know not to overstate it but I think what we're talk we've already talked a lot about connection right and so in the same way that we said that you can't be in consumer goods and then say I want to go work at a hedge fund you can't say after business school I want to you know go into banking and then I want to work for Nike like it just it doesn't it doesn't make sense or maybe I suppose if you were say you know I want to be a CFO and a consumer f maybe there's some path but for most people that path is not working Okay So there's got to be some causal connection and doesn't mean it has to be linear It doesn't have to be I'm in consulting I want to be a partner in a consulting firm But the job has to be possible There has to be some transferable skills That's right Connecting point That's right And that and with consulting it's broad It could be I want could be I want to join my my family manufacturing firm You know it it could be that I want to go into corporate strategy It could be there are lots of paths right it just has to be possible and has to work and make sense for you That's right And also these paths are not impossible to figure out And what I mean by that is is look aspirationally at maybe the job you want to get Let's say you want to be the CEO of Apple That's great by all means So go take a look at not Steve Jobs Go take a look at what Tim Cook did Work his look at his career backwards Is that what you're laying out for yourself and the reality is if you have a long-term goal don't know what the short-term goal is You know go go look at what people how they've gotten to where they are And and and to Susan's additional point like you shouldn't be embarrassed to be really really ambitious Like I've had people say "I want to I want to be I ultimately want to be president of my country or I want to be the CEO of my firm or or whatever it might be." It's it's it's you should you shouldn't be you might say "I want to seuite." You might say "I want to enter the world of politics I even aspire." Maybe there's a little bit of humility in the way that you're that you're that you're presenting it But there there you can be ambitious in the in the long run You can you can dream big but you it just shouldn't be naive You can't say "Yeah I'm Jeremy I'm going to business school and I want to be the president of the Yankees." It's like "Have I played baseball before i have I have I been a manager of the baseball system Have I been in marketing in the business?" No I've got no baseball background I can't I cannot I'm willing to admit to you guys no I cannot be president of the Yankees too I don't know why Not yet Not yet Yeah There is no magic wand out there That's really the bottom line is you have to sort of lay it out for business schools as far as how I'm going to get to this point What are my goals are and again we're talking about telegraphing We need we need and to to your point about the picture you know we're really really being very very clear that this all can come into focus Yeah No I No I think that's right Well I'm left here thinking that the phrase achievable and aspirational is just fantastic as we think about long-term and short-term career goals So thank you very much Susan for coming up with that phrase Thank you very much Jeremy Thank you for having me on your podcast Yeah absolutely And if you're lucky you'll make it on to another one Do you want to learn more about your target business schools check out OnTrack by MBA Mission where we have in-depth modules on all the top business schools covering everything from what makes them unique to how to tackle the application essays and short answers and so much more You can also practice for interview and video questions all done on your schedule on demand We appreciate your dedication to our podcast and we want to offer you 30% off any ontrack subscription Use the code MBAM pod to get 30% off any ONTRA subscription