The mbaMission Podcast

Ep 57 | The Realities of Being an International MBA Applicant in 2025

• mbaMission • Episode 57

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With the constantly evolving sociopolitical news about immigration, Visa policies, and international enrollment restrictions at top American universities, international MBA applicants understandably have a lot of questions about applying to U.S. business schools in 2025.  In the latest episode of the mbaMission podcast we invited John Byrne, founder and editor-in-chief of Poets&Quants, to join us for a discussion about the new realities of being an international MBA applicant in 2025.

00:00 Applying to business school as an international applicant 
02:56 Current international MBA students
04:53 Is 2025 a good year for international applicants?
07:06 Responses from business schools
10:34 How politics are playing out in MBA classrooms
12:53 Should you consider non-US programs?
15:55 2025-2026 applicants: What to expect
19:19 How should international applicants approach the 2025-2026 season
21:29 Considerations for recent admits
25:29 Do you HAVE to go to Harvard, Stanford, or Wharton?
28:11 Final thoughts for international MBA applicants

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i'm an international applicant i'm seeing the world how would I approach it if you live abroad Yeah and you see the headlines and you watch the news you're seeing the worst of it fear and uncertainty about coming to the US you better believe that INSEAD and LBS Oxford and Cambridge and even Rottman and Ivy they are all licking their lips waiting for a surge of applicants schools have officials full-time devoted to international students and their challenges if they have immigration problems they try to come to the rescue i don't think despite the scary headlines things have changed for your experience it's not going to alter anything about your coming here and having an incredible educational

experience

over the past few years the experience of applying to and attending top MBA programs as an international student has changed in big ways from evolving visa policies and job market shifts to increased competition and changes in how schools evaluate global talent today's international applicants face a very different landscape than even just a few years ago today we're thrilled to be joined by a true thought leader in the MBA world John Bird the founder and editor-inchief of Poets and Quants to talk about a topic that's top of mind for applicants around the world the new realities of being an international MBA applicant john has spent decades reporting on graduate business education and few people understand the big picture trends and what they mean for applicants as well as John does together we'll explore what's changed what remains constant and how international applicants can adapt differentiate themselves and thrive in this new environment welcome back to the podcast John interestingly about Jeremy Shinwald he himself was once an international applicant for United States Business School that's right i came all the way from Canada and uh but hey I mean in fairness I I still had to get a visa like everyone else i still had to figure out financing like everyone else well you didn't have to worry about your visa being revoked or being deported did you that was a long time ago it's true i was asked to go to international orientation which I thought was really funny because it was like I mean some of it was was about like you know this is the grocery store like like it was not like I mean that was hey you know the choices in an American grocery store are bewildering to me okay there we go but it was great i actually I think I went to one or two and I met a lot of people which is funny um so that's great obviously times have changed right right we're in a very fraught time now honestly with international students for the first time I'm having different types of conversations with clients in terms of visa situation what does it really mean um what's the landscape look like just simply being a someone from outside of the country being in the US right now right well maybe we should talk about this from like the both an applicant perspective and an accepted student perspective and even a current student perspective yeah like my feeling is if you're a current student you're probably a touch more worried than you were 6 months ago um you know you're probably theoretic I don't you know you don't want to jaywalk i mean that's sort of a slight exaggeration but you want to be pretty close to the letter of the law um you don't want to give yourself any any cause for any static in your life well but example okay there's an NBA currently at the Carlson School at the University of Minnesota yeah uh he walks out of his apartment one morning and he's surrounded by plain clothes people uh from ICE y who uh essentially bundle him into an on onmark car and throw him into jail right he thinks he's being kidnapped so it and they tell him ultimately that his visa has been revoked it hasn't been at that point it was revoked 24 hours later right uh and he's sitting in jail waiting to be deported he's from Turkey why okay two years before he had a DUI that he plead guilty to right in the United States that's right okay and since then he has not driven a car incidentally okay on every indication he's a stellar student right uh he did his undergrad in the US as well incidentally uh but now he found himself being locked up and uh on the verge of being deported now what happened is he filed lawsuit against Trump and the administration and uh of course since then there's been this roll back because one of the problems that we see here is the uncertainty about everything that's absolutely under this administration nothing is certain but enough is happening to frighten and scare you that's right to the point that people won't even consider coming to the US at this point it's like why do I need even to be thinking about that particularly at business school where I'm busy I'm wondering the application process in and of itself is difficult throw in this curveball and for anybody who's listening to us say that that might give them a little bit of pause even just hearing us say that people are reconsidering studying the United States and I hate to be you know nakedly opportunistic about this but there also there is is an opportunity right because if you are saying to yourself I'm an international and I'm I'm not as concerned or I'm looking at this i'm gonna b my time and see what happens over a couple months and see that things maybe are a little less fraught than they were i I would I would still you know I would still caution every international to think carefully about it and to really evaluate current information um or try to anticipate information which is almost impossible right exciting news you can now access on track by MBA mission for free take our 2-minute onboarding questionnaire to personalize your learning path choose the free plan and you'll have unlimited access to our complete modules on MBA application timelines standardized testing your professional background community leadership school selection and more you'll also get access to select lessons from our brainstorming personal statement essay resume and recommendation modules it's a great introduction to the OnTrack platform and will help you jumpstart the MBA application process get started today at ontrack.mmbbam mission.com if you're considering studying you know at a top school it it arguably is going to be easier for you to get in next year but what is what is interesting is the real feeler i mean as you know um because you were a source for this story at Poets and Quants we wrote a piece on how people who have already been accepted to Harvard and Stanford are rethinking whether or not they should go because of all this noise in the environment right of course and Jeremy you're really alluding to this notion of Zigg where everyone else is zagging in terms of maybe your chances not only of getting into business school of getting that job right afterwards right true so it could actually filter through in quite a another because the other impact of this is employers are going to be less willing to employ an international graduate once they come out under this aura of terror put it that way and I think one thing we should say is that as as there has been some uncertainty and I'm I'm not sure I've seen a school come up with an official policy about this but I've definitely heard um admissions people say this to me already which is that they're willing to be extremely flexible with those who are concerned about the current climate and so they're they're willing to some have said they're they're willing to you know make the deadline for a deposit a looser deadline they're willing to um you know to they're saying we're going to refund your deposit we're going to allow you to defer which traditionally they have not allowed um and I think look I think that that affects you know it affects some countries more than others um you know like I know one school said unofficially like to every single student in their school you like in the second year you will finish this degree like if we have to zoom you in to your classes if like if things go really bananas and thankfully it didn't happen right um but you know they were talking about canceling all student visas at at Harvard so you're in first year you're looking at your second year going like am I even going to be allowed to come back next year right um right you know they said you will I you know you will finish your degree and also listen this is a problem in many different ways for business schools in particular they have always prided themselves on having a very large international contingent that is their intention that is their aim they want about what is it about onethird of the class in international so at the end of the day business schools also don't want that equation to change they want to be very receptive to international students okay let's put some facts on the table too to help this uh discussion uh I don't want to undermine the scary notion of coming here and being unwelcome or even deported or having your visa revoked but truth be told um there's fewer than 1% of all the international students in the United States have been affected and most of the ones that have been affected uh did things like occupied buildings during uh pro Palestinian protests right uh and essentially you know ran after people do practicing anti-semitic behaviors and things like that that's that's the bulk of it yeah so if if you come to the United States and you decide not to occupy a building or not to harass a fellow student it's unlikely that you anything wrong is going to happen to you and fewer than 1% of all the international students have had anything happen to them and most of them incidentally it's been reversed already because like everything with Trump you can't count on anything essentially okay that's that's that's one and there still and there still is a legal system like like you know I I disagree with the politics of one of the Colombia protesters for sure who was who made headlines with this but I I certainly believe in his freedom of speech and believe that he should not have been kicked out of this country and so there there's there's still the there's still the law you know there's still right let me also just sort of pause here as well those protests that you're seeing really are not happening on the business school campus so when also even at Colia Colombia obviously is really been the hot bed for some of these protests The business school campus has really seen practically none of it the business school campus itself is geographically different distant from the rest of university so just to be clear here this is not what's been happening although in Harvard there was an NBA student who was harassed on that campus by pro Palestinian protesters yeah and yeah I I guess I guess I guess there hasn't been the kind of like extreme volatility and the kind of the kind of you know occupying of buildings but it's politics have played out in the NBA classroom as well for sure and I' I've spoken to I live in Boston i you know you can throw a stone in Boston and and hit someone who uh you know went to Harvard but I you know I've got a a friend of mine who's a professor there who who talked about you know talked about some of the politics playing out in in her class and said that there was a chill in that environment so but there isn't the kind of it's not roing business school classes this is okay here's another fact okay if you live abroad and you see the headlines and you watch the news you're seeing the worst of it yes and your impression from those headlines and uh whether they're on a CNN screen or whether than your local newspaper are creating a lot of fear and uncertainty about coming to the US right but the truth is that on a college or university campus it is a welcoming atmosphere you will be welcomed you will be embraced for your diversity yeah that's right uh and and there's virtually no university in America where that's not true right so you know you're looking at these headlines and making observations about what will it be like to live in United States today it'll be fantastic okay right it really will be right right like daytoday you know the three of us are walking outside and we're not we're not confronted with with with politics unless we want to engage it ourselves you know engage it whether it's just looking at our phones or whatever it might be but yes like it there isn't a a constant tumultu in our day-to-day lives when you go to the and if anything there's total acceptance because you go to university because you're curious about the world right and you want to develop these social relationships and your intellect that makes you want to embrace your fellow classmate and learn from them yeah and that's why it's such a welcoming environment you can be from any part of the world right no matter you know what the government is and it doesn't really matter you will be welcome in the United States and particularly at business schools to come back to this notion here particularly at business schools which for decades now have been very deliberate in making sure that their classes had a significant international population all of that said all of that said that that that that the United States will be a welcoming environment you better believe that INSEAD and LBS and and Oxford and Cambridge and even you know Rottman and Ivy they are all you know they're all licking their lips waiting for a surge of applicants that's true too let me put another fact on the table what other choice do you have now the UK has placed some visa restrictions on graduate students right they you know they now prevent uh married students their spouses from coming and living uh with them in the UK there's a possibility of other visa restrictions visa restrictions have been talked about in Canada and in Australia Canada too okay uh so if you think about the quality of your education and the value of it long term and you think about the risk there there are risks as great if not greater in and probably more invisible because they don't have a clown trumpeting them from a White House incidentally uh in other countries that don't have the quality of the educational institutions that we have in the United States that's true except the way that we're feeling it with my clients is European schools international schools in general are starting to bubble up in a way that they didn't before sure so so as people think about the very top business schools suddenly we're also rightfully so INSEAD so we'll have somebody applying to Harvard Stanford INSEAD Harvard Stanford you know another international school the reality is is that international schools are beginning to get I would say more prominent when you're thinking about the very top schools legitimately so yeah I mean I think one one thing to also keep in mind if you can if you can you know if you can make peace with if you can believe yourself it to be true that that your visa will not be canceled if you're a law-abiding citizen and if you believe that that's that you can get comfortable living in this country which I think is a is a is a fair bet and I think you know as John and I have talked about international students are like there was this moment no longer having international students in the United States that where just worked to a frenzy It's a $ 48 billion business for these schools that that like that balances the books at many small colleges not just not just NBA programs right if colleges would shut down there are there are many colleges would shut down if international students at the undergrad level weren't there and and and these are you know really small colleges in certain places and others that are bigger and so um you know if you can make peace with that and you can sort of say I'm going to just you know existed by NBA bubble then your NBA is a long-term asset it's it's it's not a it's not a short-term asset and so you know your NBA will pay off beyond this administration and next administration you might like this administration you might not like the next one it might be vice versa who knows what's coming your education will endure but here's what we do know what's coming okay let's say you're applying now for admission yeah next year okay uh when you graduate Trump is going to be gone and and and if there are companies that today might be reluctant about hiring an international graduate they won't be so reluctant when he's out of the White House and out of view right right right not to mention and just to understand the calendar here fully is right now this is 2025 when we're recording this there will be elections in 2026 could it actually dramatically change some of the things we're talking about here i mean one other piece it's not just the visa piece it's also the defunding of the Department of Education which is which is creating top down pressure on many universities just to cut budgets and so we might see scholarship budgets that are cut this year we might see just you know the the proverbial uh uh you know leak that doesn't get fixed type of thing i've had some admissions officers already tell me they're under you know one one had to cancel a flight to this podcast like that is unbelievable that the that the that the cost containment has come down so micro to maybe a 300 $400 flight right um so that's true and and and in fact you know business calls are often perceived to be ca cash cows for universities right to the extent that they are you can see that a university under budget pressure will reach deeper into the pockets of the business school for money right listen that's true that said at Harvard Business School it probably translates into every student gets just a few less golf balls when it comes time for for where they're seeing the cuts and again I'm pushing back on this notion generally speaking the tennis courts won't be maintained generally speaking these business shortcuts in the cafeteria too are quite well resourced and if anybody goes to Harvard Business School I spend probably one day a week there talking with my classmates um you got nothing to worry about in fact commercial now for Spangler at the Harvard Business School i don't care if you're here if you're just passing through go to Spangler Hall at Harvard Business School for about $4 you eat like a king you will see if you go there at 12:15 on a weekday you'll see Harold sitting in the corner eating something exactly right exactly right and I have to say let me put in another commercial mit Sloan has some of the best sushi that I've ever had so again things to consider as you business with these top down cuts maybe that's sushi maybe they call it sushi brain goes down i think you have a topic for a new podcast food at business schools who ranks first

stanford ranks first i know this for a fact listen now it's not because I've eaten there it's because of research has been done with students that basically says Stanford has the best food right let let me again commercial here if you haven't been out to Stanford which is beautiful the coffee shop/ cafeteria is sitting right in the middle there and basically students are number two to one when it comes to venture capitalist i'm sitting there minding my own business and at that point I had my stock broker on you know on the phone saying "Here's what I just heard here's what I just heard." So Harold I've never eaten the sushi at MIT but I've eaten it at Stanford and it's damn good yeah yeah we'll we'll see again like you said another podcast another podcast okay well back to international applicants and students exactly so again Jeremy I'm an international applicant i'm seeing the world i mean just how would I approach it very simply well I mean look I I I think you the good news is that you know in the short term time is well in the in the near-term time time is on your side until the application until the second round application like you don't have to if you're if you're uneasy at the first round application okay maybe you wait till the second round second round you're making a major life choice like orthodoxy is apply early but if you're a good candidate especially if you're from an under reppresented country where they're not going to see that many uh you know that many Cameroonians in the in the in the in the pool or Burma you know people from Burma i'm picking random countries but like Burmese people uh you know the then you know maybe you're maybe you're you're waiting the second round maybe that's maybe that's not true of of the Indian applicant where you want to kind of make sure you're in here's the other thing many schools have officials full-time yeah devoted to international students and their challenges right right right and you should get to know that person that's right uh I know UVA Darden for example has a full-time person who takes care of international students if they have immigration problems they try to come to the rescue right any any kind of issues at all in transitioning to the US uh they're there to help including Ultimate Employment and and getting work permits and things like this so get to know that person know who it is contact them early on and feel them out no I think that's right and just to speak to this notion just to speak to this notion of how well business schools know the international community and particularly how well admissions committee members know the international community i have yet to have a client from some university overseas that the admissions committee did not know exactly that university could understand the transcript admissions committee members know their international clients international applicants very very well which again international applicants you always have to understand that you will really be understood they work really hard to understand who you are when it comes time to to Okay just give people like a sense of where applicants are like I think I think the story with with you know the Trump administration's war on Harvard it'll go on but like it it sort of I feel like it it really peaked about about maybe two or three weeks ago that's right and I feel like right when that happened we got understandably we got some panic phone calls from for from our admits who got into Harvard you know internationally and and and even domestically um you know people like what's going on here um and and I think since then like I I remember just kind of just putting on our Slack channel you know we no one should no one should feel a need to rush to judgment in this moment like let the story evolve a little bit and and maybe you'll maybe I'm not trying to persuade any people should do what's best for for them and their lives but I think I think we need to sort of see where this news cycle ends up and where some of this behavior ends up and so since then I think most of the people that we were in touch with have have calmed down i think I think most of the people there's no one that I know of who's definitively said at our firm I have been admitted to Harvard and I will not be going next year i think people change their minds there's one person I want to check in on now that I've said it um I was thinking about just staying in Europe and I wonder where that person is now but it's natural like when the stock market when the stock market falls people like maybe I should sell and it's like just don't panic and so it's sort of the same I got this NBA program maybe I shouldn't sell don't panic that's a really good point wait it out and because because the school will give you the time and I'm not saying I'm not saying go i'm just saying wait until you have better information okay here's an important question you put on the table if you're accepted to a T15 program in the United States right should you go i'd say without question right but what if you're not accepted to a T15 program what if you're you're accepted to a 30 program or 35 program should you come right what do you say i'm going to answer in a slightly different way John okay right now in in during these times people need optionality we don't really know the answer i don't think there's anybody who knows the answer in terms of what the world will look like for international students at a minimum 10 months from now based on where we ourselves or the time of year that we are doing this podcast so what I tell folks at this point is yes if you're thinking about American schools then apply even if you're on the fence apply because it's going to be a different world that said would I go to a top 30 school i definitely apply i definitely see what the world looks like because again we're talking about when you graduate we're talking three years from now that'd be an incredibly different one jeremy what do you think i just think it's so individual specific like I like I want to know what that individual wants to do and why they want to go to school and um you know generally speaking like I think NBA of all stripes tend to pay themselves off yeah but let's assume that you know you can't get into a T15 school uh you still want an MBA there are great schools and great programs at at many of these institutions that are ranked well below the the top 25 even yeah uh and and some of them I could arguably be better than schools in the top 25 incidentally right um if if your intent was to go to that school yesterday and you're thinking about not going today I'd say you would go yeah right i I think if you're if you're you know if you're in at uh at Texas MCOMes the school kind of hovers or just outside the top 15 if if you know if you're in at Georgetown and like it was your dream to go I don't think much has changed i think there's been a lot of noise and it's been unsettling and I empathize with those people for sure but I think if your long-term goal is like I need this MBA to get where I want to go in my career I I don't think I don't think that much well I would even argue you'd be more protected i'll tell you why because those programs are more intimate there are fewer people right and those and and the administrators and the faculty in those schools probably are more hellbent on holding on to you and protecting you than a school with a large number of MBAs uh where you can easily get lost right right i mean listen I'm going to take this in a slightly different direction international applicants consults will call me and they say the only one Harvard Stanford award i do a lot of Harvard Stanford a lot a lot a lot that said I've also had some great outcomes particular for international students at those schools that are top 30 I mean people's always take it for granted in terms of what positive outcomes look like and the reality is there's a lot of again international students you can go to a lot of schools and having just have great outcomes yeah I mean like like it sort of it sort of goes to like the I I've said this a million times like you know you are the you the applicant are the independ independent variable like you Like yes you you might believe that you're going to that head the heavens will unfass and if you go to a top you know a school that's ranked 10 points higher but if you're a fundamentally capable person you're going to be fine you know these programs it's not suggested you should accept anything less than your best or you're the program that's going to make you feel feel best but like is Washington University in St louis graduating some some does they have an impressive alumni group yes right right you know does Georgetown yes right you know to to all sorts of programs Babson absolutely like you know they all do and so I I don't think I don't think this is necessarily even for me a discussion of like international a general basic logic around this that yeah but the point is if you're accepted to a school outside the T20 T15 whatever uh and you were going to go before you should still go now that's that's my point because I don't I don't think despite the scary headlines things have changed for your experience It's not going to alter anything about your coming here and having an incredible educational experience that's right and listen I'll take it even a step back in the sense of apply at the end of the day we live in a world now that there's such chaos in a lot of ways there's so many unknowns right now so if you were thinking about applying to school don't you don't even have to say "I'm definitely going to the optionality." It gives you the optionality you don't have the optionality without applying yeah ex exactly i think that that that's it and and again there's a lot of great schools out there in terms of the US in terms of internationally a lot of different decision points here so go ahead apply think very broadly think about really how you want to spend the next two years four years 10 years yeah like I said your your MBA will well will outlast any administration you can imagine at this point right right right you know 20 years from now like who what's the world going to look like you know so my father got his MBA I believe in 1971 i don't think he had any sense of of uh of of where he of what the administration would be like 20 years later he just went out and tried to build a business right right right no no which which is great then any final thoughts as far as again if I'm an international applicant think about business school we covered a lot of this i'm I'm not sure i I think you just need to do a little more early on prep in terms of what it will take to come here without difficulty uh and make sure you're getting advice from the right people right uh I'm going to reiterate what I said before make sure you know who the contact person is at the schools you're applying to who who helps international students specifically and and have a direct uh line of communication with that person well before you come yeah maybe even before you apply i I think that's a really good idea because that person is going to have tremendous advice for you based on real experience over many people and and don't be afraid to during during the admissions chats they do online or you know engage ask the tough questions you know you don't be don't have to worry about about asking questions on this topic and I'm like I'm I'm saying two o two things that are polar opposites like think think short term in terms of gathering information and and trying to understand your situation think long term in terms of your education itself right right right here's the other thing people may not know that Harold has a law degree and his specialty is immigration law and so if you have any problems whatsoever you should immediately reach Harold exactly and he will he will do pro bono work for you put his number on the screen exactly right understand that they are talking about Harold it is not me Harold i'm sure that there is a immigration lawyer named Harold out there it's probably worthwhile to find it um what I would say is a final note do not be discouraged at the end of the day this is a very fraught time but at some point we sort of go back to normal go back to average and that's going to happen probably sooner rather than later if you ever consider business school by all means apply really understand what your choices are and again be optimistic in many ways it's a great time yeah well I mean if sorry to sort of extend just the tiniest bit but if you think about it if you're like I guess we sort of touched upon this but if you're if you're applying in September of this year or December of this year you're metriculating in the following you know late summer fall like this is you've got a lot of time and then graduating two years after that and the reality is you do have a lot of time okay okay on on that note great discussion thank you very much thank you John thank you to our international applicant Jeremy this is Harold ask you for the MBA mission podcast if you want to be one of our success stories sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application that is not a sales call but rather your first session with one of us for free we can give you a profile evaluation answer specific questions about the process review your resume talk about your school choices and so much more sign up at mbammission.com/cconult we look forward to working with you