The mbaMission Podcast

Ep 66 | Pitfalls of Bad MBA Interviews (and Hallmarks of Great Ones)

• mbaMission • Season 1 • Episode 66

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In this week's episode of the mbaMission podcast we're discussing common MBA interview pitfalls. Where do MBA interviews tend to go wrong, and why? And -- just as importantly -- what are the hallmarks of great business school interviews? This week Harold Simansky and Jeremy Shinewald are joined by mbaMission Executive Director Devi Vallabhaneni. Devi is an alum of Harvard Business School and spent years interviewing HBS applicants as a member of the admissions board. As mbaMission's Interviewer in Residence, she conducts hundreds of interview simulations for HBS applicants every year. Devi discusses the importance of nailing your goals, how to prepare for MBA interviews, why an applicant's attitude is critical, and the risk of virtue signaling. Today's episode is a must-listen for anyone preparing for MBA interviews, whether those interviews are just around the corner or a few months away.

00:00 Welcome to the mbaMission podcast
02:09 Problems with your post-MBA goals
04:58 Virtue signaling 
10:21 When goals lack ambition 
16:51 The importance of a strong sense of self
25:14 Do not memorize answers! 
27:35 Open-mindedness about the MBA application journey
36:54 How to discuss your experiences
40:31 Negativity vs. healthy skepticism 

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Harold:

So tell me, what are some of the pitfalls? What are the things you really wish they didn't do?

Devi:

Goals is probably the biggest area where an otherwise qualified applicant doesn't get in.

Jeremy:

If you are uncertain about your goals, or if you feel like you're reaching or making something up, just ask yourself, if there was a hiring manager, would this person want to hire me?

Devi:

You can tell when somebody has just a genuine sense of self.

Harold:

Today's episode is a must-listen for anyone preparing for MBA interviews, whether they're just around the corner or still a few months away. We're talking all about interview pitfalls, what can go wrong and why, and just as importantly, what sets great MBA interviews apart. I can't think of a better person to guide us through this topic than Devi Vallabhanani, a seasoned mbaMission consultant, former Harvard interviewer, and someone who's helped countless applicants transform their interview performance and land spots in talk programs around the world. Whether you're a natural talker or the type who freezes under pressure, this conversation will give you the tools to stand out for the right reasons and avoid mistakes that trip up even the most qualified candidates. So you have interviewed, I forgot what the last count was, About 300. About 300 people.

Devi:

No, no, 300 individual interviews, not 300 people.

Harold:

Okay.

Jeremy:

It's still a lot. More than one interview per person. Right. Almost all for Harvard. I

Devi:

would say a good 80% for Harvard.

Jeremy:

Yeah. I would just say you could walk around Harvard and find someone to high-five. If you had been interviewed by Devi, you'll find another person to high-five pretty quickly at Harvard.

Devi:

It was actually pretty cool. At my last reunion, my 25th year reunion, which was three years ago, I was walking on Spangler and somebody comes up to me and she says, are you Devi? I said, yes. And she's like, you're the reason I'm here. That's awesome.

Harold:

That is really terrific. That is really terrific. So you've seen a lot. So tell me, what are some of the pitfalls? What do things do that you really wish they didn't do?

Devi:

A lot. But that doesn't make for a good podcast. Right. A lot of it has to do with goals and behaviors around goals. And what I mean by behaviors is it's the... assumption or the anxiety that come well before you even get to the interview it's in your application and the and the thing is if you put bad goals in your application you're stuck for the interview right right and you know and and again the application the interview just means there's something interesting in your application that they want to learn more about you right uh it could be about your goals it could be not goals is probably the biggest area where an otherwise qualified applicant doesn't get in okay because their goal like if you weren't you know on the margin, you're not going to get in anyway, no matter what your goals are. But this is, I'm talking about an otherwise qualified applicant who most likely would get in, but for something related to the goals.

Harold:

When I think about goals in terms of for business school applications, maybe life in general, we always think in terms of achievable and aspirational. Achievable meaning you could actually do it with an MBA. Aspirational meaning it's grand enough that you need an MBA to do it. Is that how you should approach it?

Devi:

I use the word plausible.

Harold:

Okay.

Devi:

Can this person really achieve it based on what they've done and not just because they're going to a great school? Do you know what I mean in terms of, and the other way I look about it is, are they bringing their future forward? Right. So, for example, if they've done nothing in healthcare and they've had this lifelong dream to go into healthcare, are they doing anything now? Right. Or even baby steps, right, in terms of versus just waiting for the MBA to make this huge, gigantic pivot. Right, and then

Harold:

lightning strikes.

Devi:

That's exactly what I'm saying. and I'm sorry like that's just too much burden to put on those two years right in terms of if I may I

Jeremy:

was talking about the bridge I'm like you know you're on one side of the river right now and you want to get to the other and like you know Harvard or whatever school is you know Wharton whatever is the bridge that's going to get you there but there are just some bridges that can't be built no matter how good the school is that's right I agree it's like I'm in I'm a speech writer I'm a speech writer I want to go to hedge funds can't build that bridge unbuildable bridge like virtually or at least so implausible that someone would bet heavily against you. That's exactly right. If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at MBAmission.com/ consult. We look forward to working with you.

Devi:

It's things like that. And then the flip side, in terms of two flavors of this implausibility, and it's not aspirational, is virtue signaling. And we'll talk about that. And it is so much more prevalent, I would say, in the last couple of years.

Harold:

Yeah, I know what you mean. Take a moment to explain what you mean by virtue

Devi:

signaling. Absolutely. And I see it more often with PE candidates. Sorry. We love PE candidates. They're an important part of the economy. Huge part of our client base. Absolutely. And the thing is, their experiences are phenomenal. So let's just get to that. To get into PE, you have to have a lot of strength in terms of experiences and just how you think and everything. So if you like PE and want to go back into PE, just own it. Don't all of a sudden say you want to go into... nonprofit.

Harold:

Absolutely.

Devi:

And if you've never really taken nonprofits seriously and never done that.

Jeremy:

Who here has had an applicant who was in PE and want to go back to PE? Like, Harold, you've got to put your hand up. No, that's true. I do want to. I've had dozens and dozens. There's nothing wrong with that. To show that you're interested in

Devi:

PE. That's exactly right. Or you want to go maybe to a smaller shop or to a firm that maybe specializes in a certain sector. Or you had one

Jeremy:

deal that was really fast. in June. You want to go deeper into

Devi:

someone who specializes in that area or whatever it might be. Or a different investment thesis in terms of longer hold period or whatever. Own it.

Jeremy:

You don't have to apologize for it indirectly.

Devi:

But these days, one of our colleagues and it was one of our colleagues client and then an interviewer for me. Apparently he was going to go back to PE the night before he changed his goals to a virtuous industry.

Jeremy:

I had the

Devi:

exact same thing. So I I was like preparing, preparing, preparing for this interview. And I'm like so excited to meet him. And then it was like a screeching halt when I got to his goals. I'm like, what?

Harold:

Yeah. Who are you?

Devi:

And you know what I mean? It's like all of a sudden, like this made no sense. And I'm like, what? Why would he say this? Yeah. And there's no zero experience in this future in his future industry, either in an extracurricular or at work or anything. And and then he said, well, I felt like I had to. I mean, in our one-on-one, but it's too late.

Jeremy:

Yeah. I feel like you see this in waves. As the economy builds in a certain area, there's like a bubble, people start jumping on the bandwagon. We definitely saw this during the financial, preceding the financial crisis, when things really built up to a bubble, where applicants were saying, like, oh, well, you know, I'm a teacher, but I want to go into finance now, because I I think that finance can revolutionize education. And you're just like, sometimes it's like, it sometimes sort of holds them to like, sometimes it doesn't. And like during the, during the lead up, like 2007, 2008, 2009, like, you know, I guess 2009 was when the bubble burst. But I mean, so 2006, 2008, when everyone was getting hired into finance, everyone who was applying was like, because, because it was exciting. It was an exciting time. Right. And like, and we saw that also with like waves of entrepreneurship, like right after. There's a flavor of the month. Yeah. Yeah. And so right now it's AI, right? Yeah. So right now it's like, I want to, you know,

Devi:

revolutionize my industry, insert said industry with AI when they've done nothing.

Jeremy:

I like mugs and I'm going to be the AI for mugs. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, it doesn't make any

Harold:

sense. Right. Absolutely. Let me, let me sort of put a caveat in here. We all raised our hands when it came time to working with PE clients, except for me. We did. Yeah. You should have raised your hand because you were one of the ton of PE clients because you have experience in PE yourself. About three quarters of my clients are of my clients are actually in PE. But sort of anticipating what you're going to say. Of the PE applicants I work with, when we start talking about goals, invariably that first goal is, oh, yeah, I know PE is sort of boring. I actually do want to go back there. I did. But instead, how about if I say ed tech? I hate that. How about if I say social impact?

Devi:

Usually there's no ed or tech in their background.

Harold:

Right, right. That's right.

Devi:

Or if it's tech, it's something else. And they're

Harold:

going to

Devi:

really force that connection to the end

Jeremy:

part. And you see this with applicants, I think, who change their goals per preschool. Don't do that. Okay, well, for Stanford, I'm going to say I want to be an entrepreneur. It's like, okay, is there anything in your background at all that says entrepreneur? Is there anything? It's

Devi:

so implausible.

Harold:

Well, that's where we started, too, where, Jeremy, you talked about how an MBA can be a bridge, and sometimes there are bridges that can't be built.

Devi:

MBA can help you with a lot of things, but it's not a miracle.

Jeremy:

I often say to people like, okay, just if you are uncertain about your goals or if you feel like you're reaching or making something up, just ask yourself, if there was a hiring manager, would this person want to hire me? Would it make sense for my experience to be applied to this field? And if you can't get there, and if you don't have the answer to that, find a hiring manager. Go on LinkedIn, find someone who works in this area, and ask them or find an executive in this area. That's

Harold:

exactly

Devi:

right. Okay,

Jeremy:

so virtue signaling

Devi:

and then the other kind of category or something I've noticed is when the goals aren't ambitious enough

Jeremy:

okay right

Devi:

and so so in

Jeremy:

this case the bridge isn't stretching across the water the bridge is just like it's like four feet long yeah you gotta walk across it right now or the bridge goes back to the

Devi:

same song yeah that's exactly right or there is no bridge it's a hop yeah it's like you don't need a bridge I've seen this a lot with I love my job and I want to go back to it yeah okay um And that's fine. But are they sponsoring you? Right. Do you know your path afterwards? Is there kind of precedent for this?

Jeremy:

What skill development

Devi:

do you need to get there? That's exactly right. How are you going to grow? And what

Harold:

do you need an

Devi:

MBA? That's exactly right. And the thing is, there are, I don't think any business school is going to say, like, are you sure you want an MBA? Like in terms of in the interview, right? Like in terms of, but of course it's going to go, especially if you are not showing any curiosity for anything else. That's right. Do you know what I mean? You're going to talk about your little job. in your little industry and that's it you have no curiosity for like you know what I am going to go back to my old job because right now we are on the forefront of really expanding this office and this function into something else and being way more strategic so by the time I graduate you know they're going to work on the kind of the five year plan and by the time I come back I can really take on you know and have this I can be a VP or I can okay then great

Jeremy:

but

Devi:

that's not what happens or it's just

Jeremy:

like omitted it's like I'm in consulting and I want to go back to consulting. And it's like, it's just like, no, you know, you still have to paint a picture of it. Like, like you don't realize, sometimes people don't realize that they're not, they're not talking about, you know, what, what types of experiences excite them or, you know, what kind of skill development they need. Like they're like assuming that, that the admissions officers can read this and go like, yeah, I get it. Consulting. Sure. No, no, that's right.

Harold:

Yeah. I was just going to say skill development is exactly what business schools are there to help you do. Correct. So you have to think quite deeply about, there's a lot of analysts and associates in consulting firms or investment banking, whatever it is, who go to business school, what happens next? How is their job different? What has happened at business school? And you have to be able to communicate that.

Devi:

And I see this a lot with consultants, unfortunately. And that's fine. Listen, it's expensive. If you're getting sponsored, more power to you. But have a plan for afterwards, right? In terms of maybe you come back, you put your time in, but in that time, you're going to really specialize in fintech and be a leader in fintech in your firm and and really bring that because your ultimate goal is to be a CEO of a FinTech company. So that's what I'm saying. It doesn't

Jeremy:

require that much development. No, it doesn't. That's what I'm saying. Just a little bit of introspection and thought about what fits for you. That's exactly right. That's right. I mean, you want to create some nuance in what you're presenting, but it doesn't, and no one's holding you to it. That's exactly right. In the end, it's like, look, I could go into FinTech. I could be happy in consulting. I could just work my way up the ranks. It's like, okay, either of those is fine as long as you believe in them like just don't tell me that it's like fintech or consulting or edtech because I really want to revolutionize education in you know in Tajikistan

Harold:

and the reality is also don't tell me you want to go to business school to learn strategy correct that doesn't work but I'll tell you you probably do need to go to business school to maybe get leadership experience

Devi:

or to get operational experience or even industry experience right in terms of like the tech side of everything and so I these and it's sad when people's interviews implode because of goals. Because that is the one part that's on you. Do you know what I mean? That just means you haven't done the homework before you get to your application. And sometimes people can overcome it in their interview, most likely not. And so it's sad because most likely you would have gotten in. And then, so what do you do? Reapply, oh, I refined my goals. That's not

Harold:

enough.

Devi:

So it's really trying to, I say this to prevent problems.

Harold:

Right, and what I would also say to you is many applicants, I think, don't give the admissions committee enough respect. And what I mean by that is this idea here, they're going to go up there and they're going to tell the admissions committee something that only they know because the reality of the admissions committee, Barbara, is not familiar with this thing called artificial intelligence. I've never heard of that. And the reality is you have to go in there assuming you're going to have a very smart conversation with somebody who's very smart, who can push you and really wants to understand what you want to do. I think

Jeremy:

that the, just not to beat the drum too hard on this, on the virtue signaling, but I think it just becomes a proxy for purpose with some people it may not be that they're totally trying to virtue signal it's like okay well you know I was a speech writer and how do I apply that okay I'll be a consultant to you know to governments abroad like okay this is showing some sort of like impact but like is it plausible no but it's like I'm just I need something that shows purpose so I'm putting it in there it's like you know you have to you have to actually think through the plausibility of it and you know maybe you're trying to do a back flip to get there but I don't think it's all it doesn't matter either way it's wrong but I think it's like it's not only about virtue signaling somebody's like I don't know I've got to have some

Devi:

purpose and the way I view it is it's not it looks like virtue signaling I think it comes from purpose but I also think it comes from this anxiety of trying to be different

Jeremy:

I don't want to look like every other PE wannabe

Devi:

I want to look like I have purpose absolutely

Jeremy:

and what's funny with that is that like I think it's about 72 70% of the class at HBS comes from PE and like 70% goes back. And so it's like a lot of people

Devi:

are coming in and going right back. And they know that. That's what I'm saying. Like there's nothing wrong with that, especially if you've done well and you've really worked hard and you're sponsored. And own it.

Harold:

You've done

Devi:

interesting things. It's an interesting job. That's exactly right. You can tell the people who love PE and who really think kind of in a much more strategic sense of investments and portcos and investment thesis and economy. Yeah, especially if you've had hands-on experience. Absolutely. Or they'd want to tweak something else, you know, in their kind of post-MBA role. And you're like, great, this person owns it. And so they don't worry about, oh, how am I going to be different? And, you know, this and that. That's just, it's like, how do you be different? Be honest. We

Jeremy:

talked about one major pitfall. I think we have dissected this one in full. You are the host. Do I have your permission to move on and talk about Hallmarks at this point? What's your name again? Okay, Jeremy,

Harold:

yes, by

Jeremy:

all means. Okay, can we talk about like... where we think people do exceedingly well.

Devi:

Yep. You can tell when somebody has just a genuine sense of self. Right. In terms of they're self-aware, both of what they don't know, maybe what they did wrong, and they're not trying to hide it. They've digested kind of the good and the bad about their profile, and it's just pleasant.

Jeremy:

Can I jump in for one sec? You know the story well, because I think when people hear a strong sense of self, I think they hear assertiveness. Oh, right, no. And that's not what we're saying. Self-awareness. Self-awareness. self-awareness. So I had an applicant who applied to Harvard Business School. I still had my office in New York at the time. I met with him in person. I did an in-person mock interview. And he was the driest, one of the driest people I've ever met. And he was an introvert. And when we finished, he said to me, he said to me something about his introversion. Is that acceptable? And then he said to me, you know, I'm not the type of guy who's going to light up a room. And I thought to myself, I laughed so hard because it It was so great. He knew himself so well, right? And like, it wasn't that he had to use that one liner in his interview. I don't know if he did or he didn't, but he got in. And so, because he knew who he was, he was like, look, I just, I'm effective in different ways than other people. And he was able to articulate that. That's exactly right. And so it's not like when we say, you know, knowing yourself, it doesn't mean being someone else. It means knowing yourself. And this

Harold:

is what we do very, very well at mbaMission. I want to make it a commercial specifically, but all of us spend a lot of time doing introspection with people. We do a lot of it because the only way you're going to know yourself is to think very deeply about who you are, what you've done. So that's certainly an important piece of the puzzle.

Devi:

And this year I had a client with a really bad stutter. And he thought he was behind the eight ball. I mean, in terms of just, but you can see how much he helped other people in the community, how much other leadership activities he's done to get over that. And also his track record spoke for itself of like he's so well revered in his company in his industry and all of this stuff and you know and during practice it's like you can tell him you can tell he was just getting warmed up and once he felt comfortable and it just took him a while that's natural do you know what I mean in terms of he owned what he who he is and he knew how to communicate he knew how to overcome it in such a high stakes environment and I admire him so much for saying you know what I need practice for this that's

Jeremy:

right You know, we had another applicant who had a very, very strong stutter years ago. And I remember meeting with him again in my office in New York. And, you know, it was just something that was, it was not, he was not going to overcome it in a 30-minute interview. He was going to stutter. And he was going to stutter really significantly. And we just said, you know, like, what are we going to do? We're going to pile on pressure on him saying he can't stutter? Right. You know, so we were like, you know, just go in and tell your story. And he had, again, a wonderful story. He had helped mentor other people with stutters. I believe he was like... on the board of an association nationally that sort of, like a lobbying board for, you know, something that had something to do with stuttering and he got into Wharton and he was there and he's happy. I'd love to look him up actually and see where he is these days. It just didn't matter. It's not about, it's not about like, you know, walking in and just, yeah, like, exactly, yeah, like walking in and giving the Jack Nicholson speech from a few minutes in or something like that, which I think I just completely dated all three of us inadvertently because all of our listeners have not seen that movie but you know you're not it's not you're not walking into high drama you're

Devi:

walking into no and I have to admire in terms of like people and whether and in that case that's a physical thing but other people are like I'm really scared that they're going to ask me about such and such like I did something in college I wasn't happy about and this is a couple years ago and he we practiced that story so much until he was emotionally clean telling that story Do you know what I mean? And he's like, I know this is an area. And if I get asked this question, I am going to just stumble. And so we dissected and dissected. And that's where like, you know, our role is like, I view my role as part therapist. Do you know what I mean? So like, you have to help them get to that point of like, this is who I am.

Harold:

That's why I can always tell when somebody has practiced their interview with somebody who doesn't do a lot of interviews. And what I mean by that is, I will have a client who say to me, listen, I practiced with this person, X person. somebody who even went to that school and the feedback I got is I shouldn't do um too much or I personally used to oh I say um all the time I say you know all the time and the reality is that's not the type of feedback you're looking for not at all that's artificial

Jeremy:

yeah it is they're not expecting that you are there to deliver a scene from a movie where everything crackles and that's just not the point and that's not true to being yourself that's not that's not self-awareness that's that comes across. And that's not how you're going to be in the classroom. Right.

Devi:

And not only is self-awareness important in the interview, I think that's what helps you show your genuine excitement for what's next. Your genuine excitement for this adventure called the MBA or HBS or the school or whatever it is. So until you get to that point, oh, I'm really excited for this stuff. I'm like, you're going to hit a ceiling. Do you know what I mean? Because you're not emotionally clean in terms of some of the things that you know. I often ask my clients, what question is going to trip you up? Right. Or do you think is going to, and we make sure to practice that.

Harold:

You know what this reminds me of is the data slide is part of the MIT interview. There's a couple of pre-interview essays, one of which is the data slide. And specifically, you're supposed to bring a visual with you that is a piece of data that, and people forget the second half, that is really important to you. That is something that actually has changed your thinking one way or another. Invariably, I have clients, and obviously I work with a lot of MIT people do a lot of ding reviews and people will you know present me with a great visualization it's like oh that's really interesting then i ask them why is it why is it important like

Devi:

uh

Harold:

they don't even know what we're talking about yeah at that point so you have to really be ready to show yourself but also you show yourself by sharing things that are important that are really something that defines who you are right that's exactly right

Devi:

right yeah no it's so it's so true and and you know and when you are self-aware you know i i like everyone's nervous like let's just face it like even the the the best prepared the most self-aware people are nervous right even the

Harold:

interviewers

Devi:

nervous even the interviews i'm even for my intensives i'm nervous like in terms of it's of course it's a big deal for them right um but there's healthy nerves yeah and when you are not self-aware that healthy nerves gets into the unhealthy territory right do you know what i mean and that's when you just like start saying things yes because of like things that you know you're not supposed to say that people just admit

Harold:

or you figure that yeah you have the airport in its sight you're gonna sort of circle that runaway for a little while, and eventually

Devi:

you'll get there. That's when they start answering questions that they weren't even asked. Right. 20

Jeremy:

minutes later.

Devi:

That's exactly right. They resort to really bad behavior. And I think

Jeremy:

this isn't the type of question that gets asked at HBS, but a lot of schools just start with an opening question, like, tell me about yourself. And you get someone who starts with birth, or even their grandparents, and takes them through every line of their resume, and then anticipates they're going to talk about YMBA, tells them their short and long term goals, tells them why they want to go to school. And it's like a 12 or 15 minute, like it happens wherever I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I often, I said to people like, listen, when I work with them, I'm like, I want to talk to you. It depends on the school. We'll start applying to you. And I'm like, I want to talk to you before this is, this is, this is the most common mistake I make. I just don't want to waste your time with a mock interview. And we actually direct them to our on-track platform and say, just rehearse these questions a few times and watch yourself through, watch yourself do, you know, tell me me about yourself or walk me through your resume or you know how did you get to where you are today or something walk through your goals you know your short and long term goals walk through your why this school and just watch them and then you know I'll give you some advice up front but like I can save you a wasteful mock interview by you just doing a little bit of practice on the front end and then we can get there because everyone bombs that the first couple times everyone

Harold:

don't bomb that in your interview let me key in on one word here which is a little bit of practice a phrase which is this notion here, whether we as mock interviews or actual interviews, there is nothing more off-putting than somebody who's memorized. There is nuance to some of these questions. It's sort of, it's miserable. It's a waste. You feel like you're talking to a robot. You feel like you can't penetrate the person's world

Devi:

and understand who they are. It's not a dialogue then.

Harold:

No, exactly right. And how will you perform in the classroom if you've had to memorize even something as simple as this? And I'm going to shout out also to our international applicants. This is particularly concerning with non-native English speakers for the simple reason that, God, again, you've had to memorize this? Is your English not that good that you can't even have a conversation around it? But some other hallmarks, Devi.

Jeremy:

Well, like, I'm sorry, one other thing in the memorizing world these days, I mean, I do mock interviews, and, you know, you do them through Zoom, and I'm like, can I interrupt? Are you reading something off the top of your screen? Right. With Zoom,

Devi:

it

Jeremy:

happens all the time. Yeah, and it's like, I'm like, that is not going to impress anyone. No.

Devi:

They're like, I have notes. Like, why do you need notes? It's your life. Exactly. Why do you need notes?

Harold:

And even to go one step further, I mean, it's so ridiculous. We even have word from admissions committee members that right now they're asking questions and they see the person putting in chat GPT and then reading the chat GPT. And that sounds so insane. It's like a layer of insanity on insanity. Yes, that has happened. In particular for some of the video questions where you're given, you know, 20

Jeremy:

seconds, 30 seconds, whatever it is. Yeah, that's

Harold:

right.

Jeremy:

Yeah. and that's not going to impress them so it's picking up you're not getting in

Devi:

well that's a pitfall

Jeremy:

yeah but like but what isn't a pitfall I love when you talk about that on the show like you always talk about being nervous but you know like on those video interviews they're high stakes they're a little unpredictable and you know if you have a minute to answer a question and you're only you know 55 seconds through and you haven't timed it well it's like that's not the end of the world like Bruce Bruce talked to us on our show Bruce from the industry director at Yale talked about like I'm I believe you talked about it on the show. Some of his favorite answers come from people saying like, oh, and I'm just about out of time. Thank you very much. Exactly. Gotta go. That's fine. That's just as much being who you are. Absolutely. As

Harold:

you answer in a really crisp way. Yeah. No, I think that's true. So other hallmarks.

Devi:

I think other hallmarks are when people are so open-minded to the process of MBA applications as opposed to, I want this one school and this one school only and my life's gonna end if I don't get in and all my friends are going and it's like there's so much drama about the outcome and they're not willing to put in the effort for the process to get to know them get to know the school they're just applying based on the reputation or the brand versus is this the right fit for me number one number two they don't view the whole application process as an internal journey and when they don't the interview is going to feel really really Jarring. We've all

Harold:

had clients like

Devi:

that. That's exactly right. And more and more, I literally, like in consults, I say, well, just tell me what to write and I'll write it. Or in interviews, just tell me what to say. I'm going to say it. And I'm like, I can't. I can't. It's your voice. It's your goals. It's like, it's not me.

Jeremy:

To that first point, you know, about really kind of knowing your purpose, knowing your school that you're applying to. Like, I would say that's a major, major pitfall. Now, HBS tends not to ask why HBS, but most schools do. And if your answer is superficial, if you cannot get it through. Like, again, that bridge, the bridge is the school. Then if you can't build that bridge, you feel like, well, you know, I really think Columbia's super. I really want to be in the value investing program. It's, you know, in the center of the world, global finance capital. It's like, so yeah, that's where they want it. It's like, that's not enough. Those are just highlights. That's a headline. It's like you looked at the website once, you know. If you can, you know, take it a little further, which professor would you be interested in the value investment program? Would you want do an in-session internship in the value investing program. What else do you need to become a better investor? Why is value investing even interesting to you? What other things do you need outside of investing to be a better investor? Whatever it is, it's not about length, it's about depth. In two minutes, you can discuss the school's resources well. And it's not the school's, I mean, yes, it's annoying to have an interview with someone if they don't know enough about you, but it's like, they with thousands of other people.

Devi:

If it's not you it's somebody else. What you're

Jeremy:

saying to them is I haven't cared enough to do the homework to be prepared for this and someone else has cared and you as an admissions officer probably should bet on them instead of me being a good fit for your community and being a good alumni because they care. I

Devi:

am so glad that HBS isn't that isn't a primary question for HBS. I am also very glad it's a primary question from all the others That's the

Jeremy:

reason why HBS doesn't ask it. I think they realize that like so many will be like, well, the case.

Devi:

No, no. That's what I'm saying. They don't need to. No, I know. That's what I'm saying. I

Jeremy:

think they recognize that it's going to be a ton of it's going to be canned and it's going to be the same stuff.

Devi:

The way it's bifurcated, I'm totally fine in terms of like the authenticity and everything. Because HBS cares more not about why HBS. They care what you're going to do with it. Right. They care more about the goals. You know what I mean? And that's why we started this podcast today. It's like that's where otherwise qualified applicants most likely would have gotten in. Right. for the goals. But it's also just as important to be, go that extra step. If you're gonna spend all this money to go to a school and you don't know why, that to me is just, it has to be more than the degree.

Harold:

What I tell clients, I know all of us tell clients, is it's fairly easy, a little cumbersome, but fairly easy, go off and speak to actual students. It's amazing what you find out, amazing then what you bring to an interview.

Devi:

Students, alumni, absolutely. If you've already spoken to somebody, Even people in terms of maybe there's an alum who's in another department in your employer who went there, right?

Harold:

That's it. Particularly summer associates floating around. In fact, that brings us to the conversation that you had with Bruce D'Amalenko from Yale where they do not look if people have actually visited the school. They simply don't look because that can be a burden to some people. But speaking to somebody is costless.

Devi:

It really is. You have friends of friends. You have Zoom. You have all the admissions chats

Jeremy:

Yeah, there's so many opportunities now to engage with school. You don't have to visit. It doesn't mean it's bad to visit. And I always say to someone, like, if you're in New York and you don't take the notice of Wharton, like, they are going to look at you like, this person does not want to be in Philadelphia for two years. And like, we just can't trust this person to accept our offer. But like, yeah, you don't, if you live in Seattle, you can get away with not visiting. If you can, you should. You're a consumer. It's a good idea, but you don't have to. But you have to get to detailed information that doesn't excuse you from talking to a few people and like talking to a few people is good for you as a consumer but you just might figure out like yeah you know everyone knows that Adam Grant teaches a class at Wharton you might find that one niche class that really

Harold:

fits you absolutely and you don't say listen I want to go to Wharton to be a finance school because at the end of the day it's those sorts of answers that are clearly either coming off the website or whatever it is that just doesn't not moving. Or stereotypes. Or stereotypes.

Jeremy:

Absolutely. My favorite class at Darden was a class that Professor brought in basically 17 speakers. All of them had acquired a business for under a million dollars. Right. With like, you know, with chewing gum and scotch tape. And it was like the most fascinating class. And I always thought to myself, I wonder why no one like talks about this in their applications. I was like, yeah, you know, it was sort of a niche class. And like, it's not for everyone. And I loved it and Lots of people took it. And it was for me. I really enjoyed it. I was an entrepreneur. And I was like, yeah, this is the kind of depth that people need when they're answering these questions. Picking the most popular professor, Stanford, I want to go to the touchy field class. I want to start a barrage. Exactly. Come on. It's not that you can't mention those things. Or take it further. Yeah. You can say, of course, I couldn't go through Stanford without... taking touchy-feely. It's such a famous and popular class, but what I'm really excited about is where you go after that with dot, dot, dot, whatever it is. Or

Devi:

there's a part of me that's like, I'm really scared to be vulnerable or I don't know what it means to be vulnerable and this class would actually help me show where I can. Then that's great. Own it. And also show that

Harold:

you understand what's happening.

Devi:

That's exactly right. As opposed to, I want to improve my leadership and my communication skills with

Harold:

touchy-feely. Exactly right. And also, touchy-feely is not for everyone. I have a close friend of mine went to Stanford he hated the class he thought it was terrible

Devi:

until you do the research but that's that sense of self that takes time to develop but once you have it and you're sitting across from somebody in terms of like and talking about your future it's so obvious when somebody has it and when somebody doesn't right

Harold:

absolutely little parenthetical right here another school that teaches touchy feely is also the University of Chicago and apparently they do a very good job with it but they also really bristle out this notion, oh, I want to go to Chicago to be a vulnerable leader. Exactly. Oh, I'm going to Chicago just to be a finance person.

Jeremy:

Every school has this cliche. If someone writes, oh, the Nobel Prize winners in Chicago, it's like, they know that. It's not that you absolutely can't say it, but certainly just don't. You can acknowledge it if you want. You can say, look, Richard Thaler.

Harold:

The reality is it certainly doesn't make for an interesting interview. I think when when we think about someone interviewing you, you also have to recognize these schools are building communities. They're really interested in having people there who they want to have there. And the way that you really communicate that, like no other way is through an interview.

Devi:

Yeah. And, or it looks like you're just going through an interview and you're in, and the school is your backup.

Jeremy:

Right. Right. In terms of, and so, yeah. The lack of passion for them, the lack of detail. That's exactly right. In terms of. You know, it's a great, I've seen this from lots of interviews over the years. Interviewers will say, like most people prepare for wire school, but But they'll take it a step further and be like, so, you know, what kind of clubs are you interested in joining? Like, what do you feel like you can give back to the school? And people are like, deer in headlights. It's like, I've gotten just enough to, like, talk about why our school, and that's it. And, like, I don't really know what's going on. Or, like, again, I think kind of like you said, like a little bit of a poke on this. It's like, oh, cool, so you really want to be in the family business club? What are some of the activities that you want to do? Like, well, you know, the family business club has so many activities. Right,

Harold:

right, exactly. Exactly right. Listen, I also sometimes suggest to my clients to use these questions to share something that is actually quite interesting about yourself, but there's really no opportunity. So, for example, if you're a great piano player, well, many schools, most schools have great bands. What else do you want to do at this school? Well, let me tell you, I happen to be a great piano player. I actually had a classmate of mine who had sung on Broadway, which is sort of cool. She was in the automotive industry. Yeah, never thought those two things would go together. But in any case, use the interview opportunity also to sort of highlight those things that truly are unique and not academic and just, again, makes you for an interesting person.

Jeremy:

Well, Brett, I mean, I think, look, a program, an interview that is, you know, kind of broad and open, an open interview where they're going to ask you just, like, they haven't read your file and they're just going to ask you, like, oh, talk about your accomplishments, tell me about a community activity you've been involved in. It does allow you to play to your strengths. You shouldn't, you still have to answer the question. You shouldn't be, but I always say to people, kind of go in with a bit of a mental intuition inventory of some of your major experiences and try to answer with something new each time, if appropriate. It doesn't matter if you say like, okay, I talked about starting mbaMission in question one, I can never talk about it again. It's like, no, but like, you know, if you can, if it's appropriate, you know, talk about the hockey coaching you did and talk about the, you know, be on the board of XYZ and, you know, obviously have your angle and respond to the question. So try to work to your strengths, you know, and if you can share something personal, something for the community, great, like give them a really, well-rounded picture of yourself.

Harold:

Right, right, right. And that also, I think, can really be something of a landmine. Tell me something interesting about yourself. You also have to understand where you are in the world. That's exactly right. You know, oh, I ran a marathon. Isn't that great? I ran a marathon. Not anymore. Yeah, not anymore. And also the person, you know, two people for now is going to be interviewing an Olympic athlete, right? So tell why was a marathon so meaningful for you? Well, actually, I used to weigh 300 pounds and it took me years and I finally got myself in shape. That's a really interesting story as opposed to, I ran a marathon.

Jeremy:

Just answering it without a story. Anyone else who ran a marathon. And even then, unless there's something really exceptional, I would even stay away from that just because so many people have done it. And also, don't

Harold:

tell me you're a foodie.

Jeremy:

Oh my God, you're a foodie. It's like, that means you have some disposable income, and that means you like to eat. No, but I would just say this. I would say this. I think anything where you have a truly, truly inordinate passion, so foodie, I agree, but if you truly, truly are a foodie, you don't just like food, like I remember someone years ago, I can't remember actually what, I think the item might have been like street tacos or something. Right, I don't remember that, I think. And went out and tried every single street taco and ranked them and had a Twitter account about it. And it was just, it took this, basically every street taco in LA, which is an enormous number of street tacos. I don't know the street taco council, but I'm going to go with

Devi:

many, many, many different carts. Probably in the thousands. Yeah, probably more than

Jeremy:

a couple dozen. So like tried many of them. And it was like, yeah, you know, this is not you're a foodie. This is I'm an interesting and curious person. That's right. Who is just sort of joyous about this in some ways.

Harold:

Right. Listen, look at us. Think about the stories that we have been excited about as we talk to our clients and think about street, you know, street food. That's sort of amazing. I once had a client who made their own sugar crisps, I guess it is, an old style story. It's like something that like whoa, I want to talk to you about all day. I would love to understand this better.

Jeremy:

Yeah, there are just personal stories that are really powerful. Hobbies, interests, you know, or just simply things that we do for others that maybe aren't under the guise of community service where we're just really engaged in something to better someone else's lot in life. And like all those are fair game. You don't have to do the opposite of what I would just keep hammering work. And like for years, people were like, I think this is people have been a little disabused of this myth, but Greer's was like, well, why are you asking that? It's not business. I think we're past

Harold:

that. Other hallmarks, Devi?

Devi:

No, that's really in terms of the hallmarks that I wanted to cover today. There is one behavior going back to the pitfalls that I just want to briefly touch on. Because it was very prevalent this year, both in round one and round two. And that is they look at the numbers and they're like, there's no way I can get in. And and they just feel, there's a negativity that they start the process with. I was a CPA, an accountant, and Arthur Anderson, our motto is healthy skepticism. And I think in terms of, again, it goes back to that healthy enthusiasm and healthy nerves in the interview. I think these days, for whatever reason, maybe they're my clients, maybe it was just the generation this year, whatever it was, but I had a significant amount of people that just didn't believe would get in. And that they were the ones that wouldn't get in. That the odds were stacked against them despite stellar grades, stellar scores, stellar undergrad.

Harold:

And they've jumped one hurdle

Devi:

already. And they've gotten interviews. And you can probably tell that they imploded somehow in the interview. And also, as a former interviewer, I can tell when somebody's negative. When they're just inherently negative.

Jeremy:

Yeah. I think some of that comes down to kind of what Harold said before. Take advantage of opportunities to meet people for a because then you won't, you'll disabuse yourself the notion that everyone who gets in is vastly superior.

Devi:

You realize they're kind of the same. But again, this year, that negativity is just, and then, you know, like they'll, you know, on the day of decisions, I wouldn't hear from them. I'm like, oh my God, they didn't, you know, so they clearly, if I didn't hear from them, and it would be like three weeks before, and they said, I just couldn't deal with the rejection. And yes, I understand that this is something that you want, but they're so wed to the outcome. They're so wed They're both wed to the outcome, and they're convinced that they're not going to get in. It's just like, it's a

Harold:

no-win situation.

Devi:

These two don't intersect. Do you know what I mean? But it is a phenomenon that I witnessed, unfortunately, too many times this year. And there's nothing that I can do for them, because if they don't believe that they have a chance, or they don't believe that their application was absolutely solid, even though it objectively was, I can't create belief. Right. Did you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And this year, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, unfortunately.

Jeremy:

Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think, look, it's a high-stakes process. And I think this is, you know, we've got a bunch of, you know, brand has become everything. I think this generation has gone through that intensely in the college experience, the application experience. Yes, right. That's right. And so, they've been trained from a young age to have anxiety around that. with the school you're going to get into not sort of realizing that like everything resets yeah after college and then everything resets even after business school absolutely first job and no one really cares that much after that

Devi:

yeah go if they don't get into hbs what i tell them is go to school xyz and make sure you're the best candidate best student right right in terms of versus like maybe you would have been an above average student at hbs go to that school and be the best student

Harold:

there right yeah one other point is this new notion here, and I've had a professor say this to us, if you're still talking about the fact you went to MIT slowly, you went to HBS, if you're still talking about that 10 years into your career,

Jeremy:

your career has gone very poorly. Or as I always say, no one is saying to the person who went to Harvard, go sit in the corner and be a genius. We're going to pay you double as much as everyone else. Tell us when you're done being a genius. You've got to earn it every day. Absolutely.

Devi:

And it's not a badge you can carry. I mean, yes, it's where you went to school, but after you graduate, it doesn't define you. Right, right, right. None of my classmates were like, oh, well, we talk about Morris memories, but not like, oh, look, we're 25 years out or whatever.

Harold:

Right, right, right. Of course. Life happens. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, this felt like an interview. I'm joking, of course. But you

Devi:

had healthy nerves. You had healthy nerves.

Harold:

Right, right, right. And again, it was just an interesting conversation. So hopefully we did exactly that. But this is Harold Simansky mbaMission Podcast with Devi. Thanks for having me, Harold. And Jeremy. Thank you. Thank you very much for being here.

Jeremy:

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