The mbaMission Podcast
Welcome to the mbaMission podcast, where every week we discuss different MBA application components and give our expert guidance on everything business school admissions related.
The mbaMission Podcast
Ep 70 | Assistant Dean Breaks Down UVA Darden Admissions
The Darden School of Business at the University of Virginia offers one of the most rigorous and transformational MBA programs in the country. In this week's episode of the mbaMission podcast, Harold Simansky and Jeremy Shinewald sit down with Dawna Clarke, Senior Assistant Dean of Admissions at UVA Darden. Dawna discusses the kind of applicant the Darden admissions committee is looking for, how applicants should think about application rounds, the factors that predict success in the MBA program, and much more. Whether you are planning to apply to Darden this year or just beginning your school research, you won't want to miss this conversation!
00:00 Welcome to the mbaMission podcast
00:50 Guide to the UVA Darden Application
01:30 Dawna Clarke, Senior Assistant Dean of Admissions
02:29 The Darden admissions team
05:09 What kind of applicant does Darden look for
07:54 Test options and test waivers at Darden
10:08 Predictors of success in the MBA program
13:16 Darden application rounds (Early Action, R1, R2, R3)
16:05 Engaging with the school
18:19 Charlottesville, VA and the Darden campus
22:14 Darden Worldwide Course
25:50 Using ChatGPT/AI
28:59 Darden interviews
32:00 Final thoughts and advice
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Book your FREE 30-minute MBA admissions consultation with Harold, Susan, or another one of our experienced MBA admissions consultants by filling out this form.
Learn more about onTrack by mbaMission, our innovative, on-demand MBA application platform, and take our two-minute questionnaire to receive your customized learning path.
‼️Use code MBAMPOD for 30% off any onTrack subscription‼️
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Any thoughts you have generally about the application process and how people should look at it?
Dawna:I do think the more a candidate knows about the school, the better their essays are. It's a great way to signal if Darden is somebody's top choice.
Jeremy:I think too often candidates again think transactionally, they're like, well, I'll go to the school if it if it gets me a few extra points.
Harold:We've always said here at MBA Mission that it'll squeeze the authenticity out of an application.
Dawna:That word authenticity, I can't overemphasize that enough.
Harold:Darden has always struck me as a happy place.
Dawna:We really get joy out of interviewing people and reading their applications, and I want applicants to know that the NBA Mission Podcast.
Harold:I'm Harold Symanski with my co-host Jeremy Shinewald, founder of MBA Mission. Today we're taking you inside the admission process at the University of Virginia's Darden School of Business, one of the most rigorous and transformational MBA experiences out there. How do you stand out in a pool of highly accomplished applicants? What's the story behind Darden's unique early action round? And how does the admission team spot a future global leader? To answer all that and more, we're thrilled to be joined by none other than the person who knows it best, Donna Clark, the head of admissions at Darden. Whether you're planning to apply this year or just exploring your options, you won't want to miss this conversation.
Jeremy:Donna, and thanks so much for being here. Thanks for making the trip all the way from the ville to be here.
Dawna:Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here with you.
Jeremy:And this is Harold's podcast, but today I feel like maybe it's my podcast.
Harold:Well, listen, Darden graduate, Dean of Mission of Darden, of course it has to happen that way.
Jeremy:And I don't I you did the intro and I wasn't there when you did it, but I don't know if you mentioned that Dawna personally admitted me to Darden in 2000.
Harold:I did not mention that.
Dawna:One of the many great decisions I've made in my career.
Jeremy:That's great. In 2000. And uh I graduated in 2003, and I've known Donna well basically forever at this point. And she's become a really good friend. And I'm always happy to have any occasion to see her on my many trips back to campus. But it's a real pleasure to have her here.
Dawna:Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me. Nice to be with you both.
Jeremy:No, we're both excited. I feel like I just want to catch up with a friend instead of even talking about the podcast stuff. But I guess that's not what our viewers want.
unknown:Yeah.
Dawna:I'm happy to catch up.
Jeremy:Our listeners, listeners and viewers. So um, you know, here talking about differentiating Darden's admissions process. Um, I mean, first of all, there's just some like structural differences. I know so many members of the team have been around for so long. I mean, I feel like I know many of them as well, just from the are still there from my time on campus. But why do you why don't you speak to the amazingly close-knit team that you've created at the school?
Dawna:Yeah, I'm so I'm so glad you asked me about that because it is probably the element of the admissions process at Darden that I'm most proud of. We have a team of 21. I was very fortunate when I came back to Darden in about eight years ago to have inherited about half the team that is still with us. Um we're we're really, really close. Um, I think any admissions process is really as good as the people who are involved in interacting with students and making those connections and, you know, their awareness of admissions practices and institutional knowledge. So I do think it differentiates our process because those individuals are just so committed to connecting with applicants. I mean, they're doing this job because it's a relationship-driven business and they they love that. Um, I the number of times like we're running to each other's offices and saying, oh, I just met the most interesting people and sharing who we met or people on the road. So really, really proud of our team and their expertise and knowledge of Darden.
Jeremy:And it's like so safe to say that it's it's I think people have this belief that like that there's this invisible wall between admissions officers and applicants and that applicants feel nervous to like step at a line, ask the wrong thing for fear of like uh, you know, a punitive uh situation. It's so safe to say that's not the case in Darden, right? That like that that that people should feel free to engage and and shouldn't should try and think of it as like uh somewhat of an interactive process as opposed to like we're on two separate polls, you know, we don't talk to each other and we just you we will evaluate you and you will get that decision.
Dawna:And I totally agree with you. I mean, we we love to engage with applicants. I mean, that's why that's the nature of of our job. Um, I've never really liked the term like gatekeeper or whatever, because it does, to your point, sort of imply that there is, you know, a wall between the applicant and the um admissions team. But yeah, we love to engage with with our applicants. And I think one of the things that's important for applicants to know is that we want you as much as the applicants want our schools, right? So we get really excited when we're meeting applicants on the road or in interviews or even when we're reading files. We want them just as much as they're aspiring to attend our schools.
Harold:Which of course then leads to the question: is there a Darden type based on who all of you are?
Dawna:I I'm a really big believer that people can chime for different reasons. I think there are a couple commonalities that we look for in the admissions process at Darden. And this wouldn't be surprising to you because I know you both know Darden, especially Jeremy having gone to school there. Um, I think the common denominators we're looking at in the admissions process are really strong emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills, communication skills, because it is a case method school and it's so team-oriented, and those skills are so relevant to leadership in the long term. So not only for success at Darden, but strong leaders often have strong emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills, communication skills. We definitely, when we're reviewing an application, want to see that somebody can do the work academically. But other than that, um I love the phrase candidates can shine for different reasons. And literally every day when I'm reading files, an applicant can stand out for different reasons. So um I read an essay recently where the applicant was talking about the extent to which she was a connector, right? And like loves connecting people to each other. And like, well, who doesn't want a connector in the Darden community? Right. Um, I read another one where the person gets great passion from helping others and gave some tangible examples of how the extent to which she goes to help others. Like, who doesn't want in your section or your team or in your community a helper? So I think people can stand out for very different reasons, but there are some common denominators we're looking for. And and I think applicants will be grateful that we are screening for interpersonal skills and emotional intelligence because at the end of the day, you know, these are your classmates.
Harold:Right. And it's it's easy not to. I mean, everyone always talks about what's your GMIT score, what's your GPA, neither one of which even touches the notion of emotional intelligence. So I think that that's really interesting. Particularly, many applicants think that, in fact, is what's the gatekeeper, if you will, getting the right score ready, getting the right GPA.
Jeremy:If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nbamission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you. Yeah, and um, I think Jeremy knows I have really non-traditional beliefs about the overemphasis on um standardized tests and happy to talk about that if you're gonna do that. Yeah, definitely. Darden's, I mean, so Darden's pretty committed to having a variety of test options and having you know the potential for waivers. Um, you know, yeah, tell us a little bit more about you've been a real leader in that regard. I mean, tell us a little bit more about your belief in that and and how an applicant who is like trying to think about like waiver or not waiver, what does this indicate? What doesn't this indicate?
Dawna:Sure. Okay, so this dates way back because I historically have outperformed my standardized tests. So I have personal experience with some of the standardized tests that I've taken for college and grad school that didn't really predict, you know, how well I did. And so I think it comes from sort of a personal space originally. Um, but I would say in between my position at Tuck and Darton, I had the opportunity to work with the MBA Mission for a few months. And Jeremy has heard me say this many times. It was like the best educational experience if you're going to be an admissions director, because I had an opportunity to interact with some amazing clients who, in some cases, couldn't break a certain GMAT or GRE score, but were otherwise just stellar applicants. And that experience was very formative to me in terms of the overemphasis that schools were placing on standardized tests. So when I interviewed for the position at Darden, um, I let our dean know, Scott Beardsley, you know, that I have a little bit of, you know, non-traditional view of standardized tests and the fact that I do think in the industry there was an overemphasis on like what's your average GMAT score and there is in the rankings and so on and so forth. And it is now, it's, you know, 2025, right? And who who wrote a book that said that the only way to predict someone's future success is based on a three, three and a half hour exam? So we instituted some new policies and they're very data-driven. So we worked really closely with um enterprise analytics at Darden to look at what in an application actually correlates with success.
Harold:That was actually going to be my question. If have you looked closely at things like test scores, but then also GPA, also community involvement as far as being predictive of how someone will succeed at business school.
Dawna:I'm so glad you asked that question because we did before we launched these policies, we worked with on this team called Enterprise Analytics and we looked at things like how does the interview correlate with academic success? And surprisingly, it correlated extremely much more um highly than we would have anticipated. But it kind of makes a lot of sense because starting is a case method school, lots of emphasis on communication skills. So if you do well in an interview, then then it might translate into your, um it does translate into your ability to do well academically. Um and the test scores, they are predictive. It's just that there are other predictors too. So every year we look at new factors like what if you have a CFA, what if you have a CPA? What if you've done HBS? What if you took some non-traditional classes post-grad, like Coursera, um, and things like that? Um, the GPA correlates more than standardized tests. We're really pleased because we put a big emphasis on the interview for emotional intelligence and communication skills and interpersonal skills, but we're thrilled to see that it actually does correlate with um academic success. So anyway, we had this data and we look at this data every year to tweak our test policies. And then during COVID, all the um tests were shut down. And that was a great time for us to go. We went fully test optional and then decided that it's really in the applicant's best interest if we have a waiver policy. So people can apply for the waiver before they apply for admission and they find out whether they're granted the waiver or not. And in the waiver process, we'll look at the resume, the nature of their work, what other courses they've had, um, things that line up with the research that enterprise analytics have done to make sure, okay, maybe you're not a good test taker, but you have altern what we call alternative evidence. Um, so really, really proud of the policy.
Jeremy:So the the applicator says, Well, I kind of want to apply for the waiver, but am I identifying myself negatively by saying, like, I don't want to take a test, or maybe am I saying to the admissions committee, like, I don't, I think I might not stack up by by asking for a waiver?
Dawna:I think we're more progressive than that and acknowledge that in 2025, there are lots of ways to show you're academically prepared. A test is one of them. And yes, the core it does correlate well with academic success, but there are other pieces of evidence that an applicant can provide to show that they're they're academically prepared.
Harold:And it just makes sense. I mean, we always have folks, CPAs. I've had a PhD who actually is at Dart uh is at Darden. And he had his PhD in math and European guy, and he never broke through with the tests. And at the end of the day, the notion here that he couldn't do the work seemed so preposterous, to be honest with you. We were very happy. And uh he's at Darden now, he loves it. Best choice.
Dawna:Oh good. Love to hear those stories. That's a great, that's a great ending. Yeah.
Jeremy:I think the test piece, it's important to have that out there on the record. I think one thing, one other thing that applicants worry about, I know this is so basic, but I think it's good just to have it out there. The rounds of applications and when they should apply and what the differences are. Like you get applicants who call and they're like, I missed, you know, the I missed the first round. Like, should I just wait till next year? It's like, you know, like what are the differences between rounds? Can you just sort of get that out there?
Dawna:Sure. I'm I'm so glad you asked this question because we get this question a lot too. And I think people think that there's a a lot of strategy. Um, so at Darton we have early action, which we we just had last night at midnight. Um, early action, round one, round two, and round three.
Harold:And it's early action, if I remember correctly, binding and then non-binding as well. So really almost two flavors of it.
Dawna:Exactly. Early action deadline was yesterday, and you can apply binding or non-binding. The round one is in October, round two is usually in early January, and then there's a round three in April. The round that I would say I generally try to dissuade people from shooting for is round three. Just because you just you just don't know what the year is gonna bring. If it's a really strong year, then there are there have we always reserve space for people to be admitted in each round. But um, round three can be more competitive depending on how the first three rounds went. I don't see a huge difference between applying in round one, round two, and round three. We actually keep pretty good stats on like how many applicants we have received per round and how many offers we're making to try to instill some uniformity throughout the process. Um, I think early action is a great way. It's not the only way, but it's a great way to signal if Darden is somebody's top choice. It is a way schools, I think it's well known, schools want candidates who really want to be there. And applying early action is one way to signal, hey, I've done my research, I know Darden's my top choice. Um, and so I'm I'm applying uh early. But not everybody knows that, right? Um, generally, I say apply when your application is at its best. So if somebody needs to retest or work with a consultant or um gain a little more experience, I I I don't I don't see a huge difference.
Harold:That makes sense. And just to be really clear here, so you have EA early action binding, which basically says, if accepted, I'm coming.
Dawna:Right. Exactly. You got it right now.
Harold:And I'm not applying any other any other place. And EA nonbinding means I just want to signal to you, really, Darton's my first choice. At the same point, I have some limitations maybe economically that I just can't make this commitment this early in order to definitely go to Darn.
Dawna:Exactly. You got it right.
Harold:Okay, perfect. So, um, Donna, just how important is it to do things like visit the campus, go to webinars, sometimes talk to alumni? How does that sort of play into how you think about the candidate?
Dawna:Well, I think there are a couple of benefits. One is from the perspective of the applicant. I think there's nothing that um replaces visiting a campus and seeing the actual business school and also the town that's there. It's just the most, I think, meaningful way to get a sense of you know, the school and the vibe and the surrounding area. So I think it's really valuable for the applicant to do it. But back to the earlier point that we said about us wanting to engage, we are as interested in the applicants as applicants are in our schools. And we, I mean, my team, I know I'm speaking on behalf of my team, they get joy out of connecting with people. And the ways to connect with people are usually on-grounds events. We're really ramping up our on-grounds events this year. We travel around the country and around the world. Typically, about 30, 35% of our students are international. So one of the perks of the job is traveling around the world. I'm going to Mexico City tomorrow morning for five days, which will be great. Um, but in whatever way that is most conducive for the applicant, whether it's in a virtual event, an on-grounds event, um, reaching out to alumni. I do think the more a candidate knows about the school, the better their essays are in terms of making a case for here's my background, here's where I want to go, this is why Darden is such a good fit for me. So I think to your point about engaging with alumni, great way to learn more about their experiences. Um, I know we'll talk about this later, but Darden's education is really well known for the quality of its educational experience and teaching faculty. So highly encourage people to talk to alumni to get some more flavor around that. Um, but we have these open houses in the fall every Monday. Well, not every Monday, but most Mondays throughout the fall. So if people do want to come and visit, we have the new Forum Hotel where people can stay. It's spectacular.
Jeremy:I was there the first week it opened. It is absolutely beautiful. Isn't it something I think? What a great front door for the school.
Harold:Yeah, I'm gonna actually pause here and say to anyone who hasn't been to Charlottesville, Virginia, it is absolutely gorgeous. It should be visited just because you like beautiful places. Not even because, of course, also because the Darden Business School is there, but really Charlottesville, Virginia is just a lovely place to be and a lovely place to be for a couple of years.
Jeremy:Yeah, I can echo that. It's it's incredibly beautiful. The architecture of the old Jeffersonian architecture is so beautiful. The campus is such a true campus. It's it's I I like what you're saying. I mean, it it I think too often candidates again think transactionally, and they're like, Well, I'll go to the school if it if it gets me a few extra points, you know, theoretically. And it's like, no, you go to the school because you're looking, you don't have you don't have to go, but like go to you're go to be an educated consumer. Go to go to to see what really resonates with you or what doesn't, because it's the wrong time to figure out that something doesn't resonate resonate with you is on your first day of school. Exactly. Yeah.
Dawna:Yeah, totally. And I think the people that work at a school are a personification of the school. That makes sense. Right. So if you go to a place and you feel warm and welcome and um embraced, that's a good that's a good signal of what your experience will be. So I think you also, you know, there are just these touch points that can be really meaningful for applicants. But going back to your point a little bit about Charlottesville, um, if I didn't work for Darden, I'd probably work for the Charlottesville Chamber of Commerce or something. So applicants may not know Charlottesville was rated a few years ago as the number one foodie town in the country. So the the food, the food scene in Charlottesville is amazing. It's one of the things that I really like.
Jeremy:Is Moss still there? That was like my favorite restaurant when I was there so many years ago. I feel like this should be a sponsored plug for us. Yes. We'll have to send them up to the city. Can we do that? Yeah.
Dawna:I'm I'm always surprised how many Charlottesville staples are still there, like Continental Divide, CO, Moss. Um there, there's a lot that have been there for for decades.
Jeremy:These are all the places I couldn't afford to eat when I was at school. I ate at like once if I was lucky.
Dawna:Yeah, last I looked, there were something like 328 restaurants, and now we have 50 wineries, and so there's just a lot to do.
Jeremy:Well, the you know the other thing is funny. I went to school, now we're really moving off topic, but that's what you do on a podcast. But like, you know, I graduated in 2003. I'm now a real, like, at least I fashioned myself a real outdoors person, and I love skiing, I love biking. I can't believe that I didn't have a bike. Like, it's such a biking town. There's so much terrain if you're a biker. Like, it's just such a great outdoor hiking, biking kind of. And you come back fairly often. Yeah, yeah. So I'll bring I'll bring my bike next time. Next time. Yeah, there you go. But the the town's spectacular, it's it's worth visiting in its own right.
Harold:But and also, listen, I know it's a great family town because uh I'm I'm not sure what the percentage of students who come with a significant other, with a child. Again, talking about this one client who was just from last year, amazing guy. But what's certainly top of mind for him is he had a young daughter. He wanted just a nice place to live where she could have a great experience as well, and that's Charlottesville.
Dawna:Oh, I'm so glad to hear it. And we also have a really strong partners association. So typically about 27 to 32 percent of the students come with a partner or significant other. There's a really active partners association. So the very first day of orientation, people are, you know, learning what section they're in and what who's gonna be in their learning team. And we're orienting the students. First day of orientation, the partners have their own orientation to really fold them into the community. They're invited to all of the events. Um, you know, some people joke that the best way to go to Darden is to be a partner. Yes. You can have all the fun without um the work, but they're really a big part of our community, too.
Harold:Yeah, no, that certainly makes sense. Um, Donna, you very quickly touched on something that actually I think is becoming more and more significant for Darden, which is just the nature of its campus, actually having a business school campus. I know the hotel is new, I believe there's an arboretum, I believe there's also some residential buildings, and I think it's there's a beautiful UVA gym right across from that too, right? Right. So as far as the Darden essays go, there's one question that I absolutely love, though many people think it should be gamed in some way, and that's the question of where essentially where do you want to go and why do you want to go there when you were a student? How how does the admissions committee think about that question? And what does it mean sort of for the other thing?
Jeremy:So you have to you have to name a place you want to go to on a Darden global expedition. I'm getting the title wrong. Darden Worldwide Course. Darden Worldwide Course. My apologies. Uh when I was there, it was the GBE, the global business experience, and now it's the Darden Worldwide Course. Um and then you have to explain why. Right. And so that just just to be just for the for the And it's a really interesting question.
Dawna:Yeah. Okay. In the spirit of uh full transparency, that question, there is no right or wrong answer to that question. It's that question is asked in part to make applicants aware of this great opportunity that we provide. So our dean, who we'll talk about later, when he came to Darden, he had a very international career at McKinsey, and he felt very strongly that he wanted everybody to have access to the Darden Worldwide Courses. And when he first came to Darden, not everybody would could afford them. They're a little bit more expensive. And so he went and found a donor, the Batten family, and they have provided a $5,000 scholarship for each Darden student in perpetuity to go on a DWC. So it's really a differentiated opportunity. And he is such a huge believer in cultivating your international skills while you're at Darden. So part of part of that essay is to build awareness of, and it's just a short answer question, but also just to get people thinking like, oh, let me let me explore the DWCs and where they're available or where where would I like to go? It's a nice feedback loop to the people who plan the DWCs to see, you know, what students' interest interests are too it. But it's kind of a little bit more of a fun, no right or wrong answer kind of essay.
Jeremy:So another another question about essay construction, because Darden sort of moved moved a while ago to like shorter prompts, many, many short prompts as opposed to like one big prompt. And in a world of like of of where of like chat GPT, of admittedly of coaching, like, you know, is there do these factors do they come into play when you're like, okay, do we have to change these? Do we have to make this a little more chat GPT proof? Do you guys like strategize relative to technology or is it just like, hey, we want to, we, this is what we want to know, and we're we're gonna get to know it.
Dawna:Well, we went to more short answer questions intentionally because some of the feedback we had received was writing one big essay feels kind of daunting. And we really do want to get to know an applicant a little bit more holistically. So, in order to make the admissions process a little bit more applicant-friendly, we intentionally went to more short answer questions covering a broader range of topics in hopes that the applicant could kind of sense we're really trying to get to know you um a little bit better than asking one question, um, and and also trying to make it just a little bit less less daunting um as well. One of my favorite questions um to read is the question about what do you want the community to know you know about. That's a good question. Yeah, that's a good question. And and that, I mean, people have free reign, and uh to my point earlier that people shine for different reasons. I love reading the responses to that. Of all the things somebody could say about themselves, what you know, what what do they distill it down to? It's it's it's they're really fun to to to read.
Jeremy:And what do you make of Chat GPT at this point? I mean, is it is or of of you know the the many Chat GPT, Gemini, et cetera. Um, you know, how concerned are you about it? Or does it have a rule? Does it not have a rule? Do you guys does Darden have a have a have a request for disclosure at this point?
Dawna:Yeah, we haven't yet. I would say, um, well, we do have uh a new AI institute that I can tell you about more later, but I would just say we're the admissions process is intended to sort of mimic some of the school's policies and the school's view is that it's a new technology that's available. Like there was a time in the Darden classroom where calculators weren't allowed, right? And then calculators were introduced and allowed in the classroom, right? And so as technology evolves, this is the latest evolution. And um, one of the things I'm hearing from our career team, Jeff McNish, the head of our career uh office, is that recruiters really want students who are cutting edge with using things like Chat GPT and not very knowledgeable about AI. So it's actually kind of encouraged. But the AI Institute at Darden that was just announced um like less than a year ago is really focuses on the ethical use of artificial intelligence. So um I guess I look at it as, you know, it is a tool that's out there. I would not say I'm overly worried based on the responses that I've read so far. I don't read a lot that say, oh, this sounds like it was written by Chat GPT. Maybe they are, but it they're it's sort of possible.
Jeremy:No, I mean, I mean it w there are definitely times where it's it's it's so obvious that it is, at least with the I feel like with when we have a client of ours, where like every once in a while, you know, it's like, yes, this has sort of the bland sameness. But I think if you're if you are really, really like working at it and really uh, you know, adding your own colors and details. And I mean you're effectively not using ChatGBT at that point because because you've just completely overhauled it. But I uh the at times, you know, at times I'm willing to admit that that I can that it could be a little a little tricky to figure out.
Dawna:Yeah, and I think an applicant's kind of doing themselves a little bit of a disservice if you're overly using it, because I I know I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir. How many times have we heard, and you too, Harold, that the opportunity to go through an admissions process is just an opportunity to think and answer these questions and prepare for an interview is it it is a chance to be self-reflective. So I think if an applicant is overly using it, they're they're kind of used, they're they're doing themselves a disservice. But if you write an essay, right, and then want to use it and say, could I word this a little bit better or whatever, I think that's fine. But I'm I'm not seeing I am not overly concerned with an overuse of chat GPT in the admissions process yet. Um we're starting a new process, uh, you know, cycle for this year. So maybe it'll come.
Harold:Right, right, of course. I mean, listen, we've always said here at MBA Admission that it'll squeeze the authenticity out of an application. And suddenly if you sound like every if you sound like everyone else, you lose.
Jeremy:It also leads to the next part of the conversation because I want to talk about interviews, because interviews play a really integral role at Darden and they're so warm and conversational. And so, like, if you're sort of like bland and without personality in your essays, like it doesn't connect with like who you or or you know, or if you've sort of fudged your essays a little bit. You have to be a human a human in your in your in your interviews. You you you can't be like you can't be a robot there, right? So you you have to be sharing your authentic self in your interview. It's not otherwise it's not gonna work.
Dawna:You both hit the nail on the head. That word authenticity, I mean, I I can't overemphasize that enough. I love when I read an application or even read an interview write-up, and I walk away and I feel like I I got a sense of who the candidate authentically is, whatever, whatever that is. And I used a very kind of more mundane example earlier where somebody wrote the question about what do you want the community to know? This woman wrote this essay about her passion for helping others and talked about the extent that she went to, it was a Chinese applicant to help her elderly grandparents during COVID. COVID learned technology. She gave some tangible examples. And being a helper, that might sound kind of mundane, but it was, I felt like her passion for helping others really came through and it felt very authentic. So I'm just taking something that may sound a bit mundane, but was very effective. Same with the applicant who was a connector gave some really good tangible examples that Chat GPT couldn't write that led me to walk away going, oh, we want somebody who's a connect who gets great passion and joy from being a connector. What a great, you know, way to be in your in your, you know, the way you interact with classmates and things. So the authenticity that you both tapped into is so so key. And and and it's joyful for us to really, again, when you read an applicant and it's not like, you know, kind of cookie cut, you know, you walk away and go, oh, I really felt like I got a sense of who Harold is, who Jeremy is. It's it's it's it is joyful for the reader.
Jeremy:See, that's that's the sincerity, and that's that's what I was saying. People should certainly not feel not feel uh like they are on, you know, on like I said before, different planets and you know or twines that shouldn't shouldn't uh mesh with the one of the I'm looking for the right cliche. When you see someone who's saying, like, I well, this is a joyful experience for me, you know, you know that you have someone who's like on your side to circle it down.
Dawna:Yeah, and I think that's true for our team. I mean, we really get joy out of interviewing people and reading their applications, and I want applicants to know that, right? We again we want them as much as they are, you know, interested in our schools. And I can tell you want joyful people, and that really matters. I tell folks you are gonna be spending so much time with these people. You'll be spending more time with these people than your spouse or a partner. It's like happy people are far easier to be around. I think that's really the bottom line. That's true. Yeah. And Darden has always struck me as a happy place. And I believe your experience is one that was happy and you absolutely enthuse happiness. Donnie, just any thoughts you have generally about the application process and how people should look at it. Yeah, I would say I think we're very mindful of how stressful the process can potentially be. People are working full time and studying for exams in some cases, unless they go for a test waiver and, you know, they have full lives. And um, I'm a big believer in reframing. And I think as applicants approach this process, recognizing that by the time you apply, a lot of the hard work is already behind you. So people have performed in undergraduate school to the best of their ability. They've established careers, they've established relationships with people who are going to advocate on their behalf. They're in the process of um, you know, studying for tests and things like that, but just maybe to make it a little bit less stressful, recognizing that a lot of the hard work is behind you. And the other thing that I would say, and Jeremy may um agree with me, is one of the things that I love hearing from alumni, CR alumni a lot, um, is Jordan with two of the best years of my life. And so I think embarking on a process and saying, yes, it can be stressful, but also reframing it and saying I'm embarking on a process that could end up being two of the best years of my life is it just a little bit of a different way to approach it. It's like such an exciting, impactful chapter for so many people. So just a couple of words of maybe wisdom to help take what could be stressful and reframe it a little bit.
Harold:No, no, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jeremy:And I will concur two of the best years of my life for sure. I mean, it was I'm still in touch. So many good friends, I'm still in touch with them on a daily basis. I suppose that would happen at any school, but still it was just like a, it was the right, it was a great cultural fit for me. I loved it. I mean, I always tell this story about how, and I've been embarrassed Donna, but how um I felt uncertain as an applicant and there was there wasn't information out there the way there is now. And it wasn't as friendly between the the the applicant and the admissions office. But I mean, I'm I'm looking into applying in 1999. This is before most of our applicants now are born. And um, and you know, the internet isn't a thing. And and I didn't know if I belonged. And I showed up at some schools and they weren't very friendly. And I just, I just, for me, that kind of like emotional fit was now it's almost everyone's pretty friendly, but at the time I felt like I I needed a little bit more of an emotional fit. And I showed up and I I met Donna at an at an interview session, like sort of like a little round table session just to meet with her uh in her office with some other prospective applicants. And she was just so kind and warm. And thank you. And I was like, I want to be at a place where people were really welcoming. And I I was like, I was so excited and sold, and it was because of that warmth and engagement.
Dawna:Thank you for that story. And we were lucky to have you. So I'm very proud of him, too.
Harold:So that's really great. Really, really great. And not a not a bad time to end this podcast.
Jeremy:Yeah, well, yeah. Well, and and with and with like uh, you know, mutual mutual admiration society here. But no, it's it's a very, very warm place and just a really fun place to go to school and and um and just certainly, I mean, yeah, two of the best years of my life by far. Oh, so glad to perfect, perfect, perfect.
Harold:And in our next podcast, we're gonna talk about how Darden is thinking about the future for itself and beyond business school. Can't wait. Okay, perfect then.
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