The mbaMission Podcast

EP 71 | How (and When) to Prepare for MBA Recruitment

• mbaMission • Season 2 • Episode 71

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In this week's episode of the mbaMission podcast, Harold Simansky and Jeremy Shinewald welcome Liz Ramos. Liz has spent decades recruiting and hiring MBA students at firms such Bain & Company, Fidelity Private Equity, and Cambridge Associates. Today Liz shares her unique perspective on how top firms recruit and develop talent. She discusses how the MBA recruitment process has changed, what elite consulting and investment firms are looking for, and what MBA admits need to do BEFORE they arrive on campus. If you are aiming to begin business school in the next 1-2 years, this episode is a must-watch!

00:00 Welcome to the mbaMission podcast
00:50 Welcome to our guest Liz Ramos
01:37 How the MBA recruitment process has changed
04:04 Preparing for case interviews BEFORE arriving on campus
07:21 How much does "fit" matter to recruiters?
08:50 Evaluating soft skills
09:57 Who gets hired?
13:10 Recruitment coffee chats
14:58 How to network if recruiters don't come to your campus
17:07 Undergraduate recruiting vs. MBA recruiting 
18:33 Advice for those who struggle with recruitment
20:13 How many MBAs make it to partner?
21:53 The X factor for consulting recruits 
25:53 How focused do consulting applicants need to be?
28:06 Comparing the MBB firms



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Harold:

Clearly, recruiting is something that you know very well. As you think about the entire process, how do you put it together?

Liz:

It's changed so much. Now it is so fast that you need to arrive on campus with your resume in tip-top shape and a good sense of where you're going to focus your recruiting efforts. You have to know. You have to like go in there ready with maybe a bit of a network if you're switching jobs. If you wait until you're on campus to start your resume, it's just too late because everything takes off so very, very quickly.

Jeremy:

It sounds like there are certain things that are just must-haves and others where it's like, can this be coached or developed?

Harold:

I'm thrilled to introduce Elizabeth Liz Ramos. Liz spent 22 years at Bain Company, starting on the strategy side before deciding to focus on people and talent, eventually becoming Bain's global head of human capital. She later brought those experiences to leadership roles at Fidelity Proud Equity. She was president of Isaacs and Miller, and most recently a partner and leader of Global Human Capital at Cambridge Associates. Liz has truly unique perspective on how top firms recruit and develop talent. And I can say that personally since she was the one who recruited me to Bain and Company many years ago. Liz, we're really great to see you today. Thank you. Of course. And as we discussed, Liz and I first met each other when I myself was recruited to Bain at this point a few years ago. And so so Liz, you've been doing this for a little while, first at Bain, and then you also continue on at a few other companies. And clearly recruiting is something that you know very well, you've been doing for quite a long time. And for many, many uh applicants or many, many folks who are in business school, recruiting is this absolute black box with this notion here, particularly in consulting, with this notion here of okay, you have the case, you have the fit. As you think about the entire process, how do you put it together?

Liz:

You know, it it's changed so much that I think it it can't be a black box if you're gonna succeed in it. You know, when you and I went to business school, it was possible to land on campus, spend your first few months going to different company presentations, finding out what companies are like, what's out there, and then you decide who you want to interview with. Now it is so fast that you need to arrive on campus with your resume in tip-top shape and a good sense of where you're gonna focus your recruiting efforts because you do not have the time and the resources to cast a broad net. I think that's the biggest change. It's a little bit constraining. And, you know, for some people, they might miss the days when you could really just look around and decide where your fit was. But it's it's really fast. It moves very fast these days.

Jeremy:

Yeah, that's a great point because I think we see applicants who get in, and the process has been so all, you know, can so time consuming, so all consuming with their GMAT and their essays, and they're like, okay, I finally got in. And they just rest easy after that. And it's like, no, you have to, you have to, you have to know. You have to like go in there ready with maybe a bit of a network if you're switching jobs. Like you have to have done some like some some of the groundwork to some of the blocking and tackling to make sure that you can be in action mode right when you get there. And it's pretty surprising to them that it's not just like, yeah, we'll show up and look around and we'll make it happen. Yeah.

Liz:

I understand. You you just want to take a deep breath and celebrate because getting in is a tremendous achievement. But then if you wait until you're on campus to start your resume, it's just too late because everything takes off so very, very quickly.

Harold:

So, Liz, with that in mind, one of the things you can clearly start is your resume. And I frequently tell some of our clients and some of the new admits, okay, go to the career career services, they probably have a resume template. But of course, for many people, the most intimidating thing is case interviewing. And from that perspective, what does it actually mean to start even before you get to campus?

Liz:

Okay. Well, that is also a higher hurdle than it was when you and I joined Bain. There are so many resources now for case preparation that the bar is higher to succeed. If you're going to a one of the more sophisticated business schools, there's going to be a consulting club on campus. That will be a tremendous resource. It shouldn't be your only resource, but it will be a tremendous resource in the preparation. And usually your first week on campus, there's a club fair, and you will find out what the different organizations are and what they can do to support their membership. So you've got to have the resume ready and bounced off many knowledgeable people to make sure it's truly polished. And then you get ready and start working with the resources available through the clubs. They will help you with case prep, but it's a lot of, it's it takes a lot of proactivity, I think even more than years ago.

Jeremy:

If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nba mission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you. Yeah, it's a it's just a totally different way of thinking. I did one case interview when I was in business school, and I was like a deer in headlights. I just had not done any of the prep. I kind of, I don't know, I think you there was a point system where I got into the interview through points, and I was just like, oh, when is this over? It's just like it's you need to prep. You can't, you're not just gonna walk in there.

Liz:

No, that's that's true.

Jeremy:

The first one's terrifying. It was terrifying. I still feel the awkwardness.

Liz:

So how this works on campus is that uh generally someone from a club will volunteer to help you get used to this. And your first few you know case preps might be with a club, and it's just they give you the case, they pretend to be the interviewer. There are many spots where they will have to decide, do I help Jeremy by giving him a little tip, or do I just let him be challenged?

Jeremy:

Switch the wind as they did?

Liz:

Yes, exactly. So then you move on from club case prep to the companies you're interviewing with, and they will offer case prep. Now, all of the conversations with these companies, many of them, at this September, October, early November stage, are technically non-evaluative.

Jeremy:

Technically.

Liz:

Technically, I would always assume when I'm interacting with anybody at a company that I really want to join that there's some kind of evaluation going on at some level.

Harold:

There must be, because I always think in my mind that fit is something that I don't know if it's simply less talked about or it's talked about without being quite a nebulous uh term.

Liz:

Okay. First of all, I'm wincing because in the various CHRO chairs I've had, I did not allow people to say fit. Oh, that's interesting. That's right.

Harold:

Yeah.

Liz:

We can talk about skills, we can talk about experiences, we can talk about observed behaviors, but fit for me allows us to potentially indulge our biases without facing them. So, you know, if you come to me and say, Liz, I don't think this candidate's a good fit, I'm gonna push you a little and say, what behaviors, you know, what observations did you make? What questions did they answer in such a way that made you skeptical? You know, tell me, was it communication style? You know, was it how they talked about their background in working with other people? You know, I just I want to hear more and I want us to be very specific.

Harold:

That's is so interesting for me because I remember when I was recruiting many years ago, there not only was fit part of the consideration, it was almost as if going in before you had that interview, it's oh, this person fits here, this person fits there. I don't even know what that means. Uh I didn't even know what it meant at the time. So people are gonna also be evaluated, and I'll call them softer skills or this notion here of people who maybe just can't nail that case. So why don't you take it tell us a little bit more about okay, how are you thinking about these softer skills, or how are you thinking about those things that are not necessarily easy to quantify? Sure.

Liz:

Um, going back to Bain, we we talked about it in terms of team and client skills. You know, team skills, does this person give you evidence from their background that they've been in situations where they had to decide whether they scored more points for themselves or let the team do better? And then on the client side, you're assessing is this a person that develops a strong rapport easily? If I'm a client, am I going to welcome this person into my office, even though I kind of know that what they're working on might not be something that I'm super excited about? So you know making it more specific, team skills, client skills is one way to look for exactly the criteria you're looking for, you know, without kind of I I think t taking the easy way out to say, uh, I gotta fit.

Harold:

Right. Yeah. No, that makes sense. So I'm gonna now give you the softball question. So you're balancing a lot of things when you're evaluating candidates. So who wins? So out of all these things, who do you really feel like this is the most important? I actually know very quickly if this person is gonna be a valuable member of our team. And you have a thousand different things as you think about this person. So how you meet someone, how do you yourself think about it?

Liz:

Well, it's there's a spectrum, right? You know, the and debriefs in my experience and in companies where I had something to do with it, it's always a group effort. You know, you have a lot of people who have met the candidate, you have different case studies, because different, you know, anybody can bomb a case, and you know, anybody can turn around and do fabulous on the next case. So you've got a realm of experience. Some people have done well on everything, they go to the yes list. Some people have not really succeeded in anything, they may not be people who are going to cons succeed as consultants, and then in the middle, it's a real tussle. And that's where those tricky trade-offs come. You know, someone did really well on a couple of cases, but seemed really uncomfortable and nervous. And we need to make the judgment call. Will the person get beyond that and be able to participate in a calm and confident way with clients or not?

Jeremy:

So you're kind of talking there about maybe taking small risks. It's like there, there are I'm uh it sounds like there are certain things that are just must-haves and others where it's like, can this be coached or developed? Precisely. Okay. So can you think back, obviously not naming it candidate? Can you think back to someone who's like, yeah, I took a risk on this was the risk I took with this candidate. It worked really well. Like, what's the type of risk that that uh that someone who you brought on board like could be yet a hunch could be mitigated and then was?

Liz:

Right. I think sometimes they're the people that have less of a pure business background and maybe engineering.

Jeremy:

Right.

Liz:

And by the way, those people can still do very well on the case, but some of those, you know, they've got the logical skills to pick it up. You know, what you're looking for in the case is logic. You know, can the person attack a problem in a structured and logical way? You're also looking for business judgment. Do they know enough about business to figure out which framework to use? And that's where people with a little less business background can get hung up a bit. Um you're looking for enough of quantitative sense that you can, without a pen and paper, pressure test and you know, just reality check numbers, you know, with a client. And then while you're doing all this, are you relaxed enough that it's actually kind of a fun and engaging business discussion? And someone with less business background, I think, is going to do fine on three of the four.

Harold:

Liz, you spoke earlier about firms providing things like case case help as well as just other opportunities to meet the firm. I understand that there's something new that I never did, which is a coffee chat. What is that about? How should people be looking at that? What are you folks looking at that when you meet somebody for coffee?

Liz:

It's an entirely new phenomenon. And the more I learned about it, the more I was surprised and impressed by the amount of resources the firms are putting into putting their employees on campus to talk to candidates. Um so the format, usually it can be very unstructured. You just sit down and have a conversation, something like this. As a candidate, you have to be prepared to carry the conversation and to ask insightful questions, but be engaging, not be too forced. And the number of these is stunning. One recent MBA graduate who did land at a very nice firm did 50 of these.

Harold:

You said 5-0.

Liz:

Five zero.

Jeremy:

Wow.

Liz:

Yes. 20 of them with the firm she ended up joining. So you need, you know, it's like a CRM. You need a spreadsheet to keep track of who you talk to, you know, what the topic was, you know, how long have they been there, etc., just because the conversations build on each other. So the firms will reach out to offer these. The sign-up is posted and everybody jumps on it to get as many in as they can. But then you need to network your way into others as well because you'll learn things that way that you won't learn necessarily with current employees. So yeah, people you knew from undergrad, friends of friends, etc. So it's a networking exercise, and you're building what you know about the firm, but they're also building a file on what they know about you.

Jeremy:

So, what would you say to someone where the you know the firm isn't coming to their campus? They're not a core school, or they're not they're not even like a tangential school. They can do their own networking, I guess, find find some. I mean, everyone at this point through LinkedIn and just through the the World of So Well Network can probably find someone from their undergrad program that is at a Bain or a BCG. But still, if they don't have that kind of like built-in system and funnel, what do you say to them?

Liz:

It is a harder leap to get there if you're not at one of the core programs where, you know, frankly, the big firms can fill their recruiting quota, you know, just a few stops at MBA campuses. So you're right, the networking is critical. There are also organizations that will help in that situation. Forte Foundation, SEO. So those people are there. You know, if you get to know the incoming class at any of the big firms, you know, there will be a few people that are not, you know, from the campus as you might expect. But it's a harder leap, and you're right, it takes a lot more proactive networking.

Harold:

P Is this something that you should start doing as soon as you're accepted? Is this something do coffee chats start right away? Is this something that you really have to go in there having done some and then really having a lot lined up? It would be a great idea to do some before you get to campus. Okay. This for me actually sounds intimidating in a different way with this idea here of if you're more of an introvert, for example, how do you sort of grade uh how do you grade on a curve for something like that?

Liz:

Yeah. Well, and again, it's all on the balance of what the firm is looking for. My advice would be don't underinvest in the non-case. You know, case prep takes a long, a lot of time because they're about 45 to an hour each. And you probably want to do at least 20 or 30 case preps so the fear curve is worn off before you go into the real situation. And it can be easy to think, oh, well, this is just a chat. I'm not worried about it, but I I would not underinvest in that.

Jeremy:

Are all these rules the same for undergrad as they would be for someone who's in who's an MBA program? Is it the same expectations for coffee chat?

Liz:

It's less intense for the undergrads. You know, it's generally two to three years with the firm. So the the hiring firm is a little less focused on can this person progress to be a partner. And I was always very cognizant that we don't expect undergrads to have business experience. Many of them had to work at a job where they had to make money over the summer and couldn't necessarily do an internship at someone's firm. So I I always try to make the cases just, you know, something about starting a business on campus and just say, you know, can they walk through the numbers? Have they thought about the market? You know, can they figure out what the risks are? Yeah, yeah.

Harold:

What's so funny? I read an article in the New York Times from someone in this exact situation, undergrad going through this process. And she said something I found sort of profound, which is this notion, this has been the most rejected generation of really any generation up until now, because they finally get into that Ivy League school. At that point, they're on campus, then they try to join the consulting club, and they have to apply for that. And then they have to start applying for internships very early in this process. And again, we all know what's the chances are of you landing with that sort of ultimate dream firm. This may not be your actual area of expertise, but what do you say to some of these kids who don't successfully go through the process or really stumble somewhere along the lines? And I I I'm I'm sure that that is a difficult conversation, but what do you say to some of those folks?

Liz:

There are opportunities out there. They are not always the ones you thought you wanted when you got into the process. You know, be open-minded and work your networks. It is just amazing, even at the undergrad level, how many people get into something that uh, you know, comes up through a network.

Jeremy:

And there's also, I I feel like you're the consulting expert, not me, but I mean, there's also there are other entry points. It's you know, later on after you get your MBA. It's like if if your heart is really set on it at an undergrad, it doesn't happen. You could find another on-ramp. And that might not necessarily be the case with some of the other post-MBA careers where, you know, it I don't know, it might be a little harder to that are less open to like that kind of transition. It feels like consulting's pretty open to anyone as long as they've got analytical skills in the right kind of frame of mind. Is that fair to say?

Liz:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Another approach to consulting could be the non-client-facing roles. There are plenty of challenging non-client-facing roles where you will learn and develop business skills. So, you know, that can be a good few years, and then if business is indeed what you want, then you hop from there to business school.

Harold:

Absolutely, because Liz, you probably know the numbers in terms of the post-MBA consultants who start, how many of them actually make it to partner?

Liz:

It's something like one in seven, one in eight. Now, I don't look at that as failing. You know, many people go to consulting for two or three years, and I think it's a fabulous way to refine your real-world actionable business skills, and then have a lot of opportunities open to you two or three years out. Now, people who become managers are good at managing people, they're really nice collaborative touch with clients, and you know, they're also develop an excellent sense of business judgment. You know, for some people, that's great. It's a fun job. For some people, they are always on the hot seat, and it's not something that's comfortable.

Harold:

No, absolutely. And I'll tell you, but quite honestly, I really I would not say enjoyed my two years at Bain by any means. But you learned a lot from hoping there's a good note. No, and it was probably one of the most significant experiences of my life. Because at the end of the day, I was very lucky to be surrounded by a lot of just really smart people looking at really interesting problems. And I have to tell you, it was also a group of very different people. And that I think was what what is most surprising to me as far as how different all of my colleagues were. All of us had something, and or maybe I didn't, everyone else had something. But but Liz, with that as background, what's the what's the X factor, if you will, in terms of you've met a ton of people, but is there something in particular that you say they'll be a great consultant or they'll be a less good consultant?

Liz:

I think it's just a mix of the skills we're looking for. You know, the analytic skills, the client skills, and someone who's an excellent team player. You know, there are people who make it on their team skills. They're fine with the analytics. They can communicate reasonably, but they're always the person, you know, who walks by your desk at 7 p.m. and says, ooh, you look underwater, anything I can help with?

Harold:

What sort of advice? Again, I'm gonna put you on the spot, what sort of advice for somebody who is just thinking about getting into consulting as they are now starting business school?

Liz:

It's too late. That's great. Yeah. Um, thinking about that, if you aren't really sure what you want to do with the MBA, don't go yet. Don't go. The application's gonna ask you what you want to do with your MBA. And if you're really unsure, it's hard to write a really compelling answer to that question. And then because of all the prep you need to do before you land on campus, you're not gonna maximize the resources and the opportunity if you aren't pretty directed before you get there. And I say that having landed on a business school campus a few years ago, but not even knowing what consulting was. So I feel badly for people that don't have the luxury of finding their way to it today.

Jeremy:

I I know we want to give you the we certainly want to give you the last word, but I think you said something that's important there for applicants who are listening, which is you know, we we see this in applications when when applicants are filling out their short and long-term goals, and they're and it's just like a very trite or cliched, like I'd like to go into consulting so that I can get a breadth of experience, and then I'd like to, you know, advance through through the firm or something like that. It's like there isn't really anything substantive that shows knowledge of what it means to be a consultant. You could even take out consulting and put in, you know, banking and and the sentence would still work, right? And so I find that uh that consulting is kind of like a default application mechanism for a lot of people who don't really know what they want to do. And, you know, maybe they can maybe they can fudge it enough or with our help, they can get it to like something that's a little more precise and they can kind of make it a little bit more compelling. But that's that's not enough to get you in the door. And that's why you have to do all that prep. Because if you're still working with those trite cliches when you're going through recruiting, you're not gonna get there. You also could be you also could be a little miserable there. Like I'm I'm willing to admit that I did that with banking. I I ended up in banking for a year. I didn't totally know what it was. I wasn't very happy in that world. Like I needed, I should have, it's on me, not the bank. I should have done the homework before and to really, really understand what it was. So I think like applicants really owe it to themselves to not be kind of caught up in like the branding of like consulting the prestige that they perceive, but to actually because you have to live with it. You have to you have you have to be if two years of your life is a long time.

Liz:

You're gonna be doing this for 70 hours a week for at least a couple of years.

Jeremy:

Yeah, like even if even if it's a brief tenure, it's still it's still a long time to figure out it's not for you, or or yeah, you might, you know, you might get lucky and it might work for you. But I think it's that that that advice to like really do your homework in advance isn't just to succeed in the process, it it's to succeed as a consultant and to and to succeed for yourself.

Liz:

Exactly, because the opportunities you have when you come out of business school is probably the broadest range of career opportunities you're ever gonna have in your life. You'd have almost as many after two or three years of consulting, but still that's a tremendous platform, and you don't want to waste it. Right. You want to make sure that you use that to get someplace that's gonna make you really, if not thrilled and happy, help you get to where you want to be.

Harold:

A Okay, as we think about entering consulting, how specific do you need to be in terms of what industry, what function, in fact, what role you'll actually play in the consulting firm?

Liz:

That is something that varies a lot by firm, by office, and by individual. You know, if people have particular, you know, tech background in particular that they can bring to consulting, that might be seen as a plus. There are still many firms that are looking for the basic raw materials, you know, that analytic ability, communication ability, and you know, they know you'll pick it up. And that's part of the fun of consulting, right? You know, being dropped in someplace and knowing you have to get through a few meetings without opening your mouth because anything you've said, you don't know enough to say anything intelligent yet. So then you get over the fear curve and you figure out how you can add value. But um most firms, it seems like now are waiting a year or two to put people into practice areas, although candidates that have a particular interest in a practice area maybe have prior job experience or have academically focused in that area, you know, should certainly share that. That'll help them end up at a firm that uh you know that can help them grow in that direction.

Harold:

No, that makes sense. Listen, I'm also living proof of that. One of my first projects was on an industrial wire manufacturer, very much old economy. And another project was on, at the time, creating this new CFO-focused website. And and other than the CFO-focused website using wire, there was very little connection between the two of them. Which again was probably the value that uh that I gained gained that.

Liz:

Exactly the same. My first two were automotive and neonatology in a hospital.

Harold:

Yeah. Yeah, there we go. We're gonna have another podcast with Liz talking about your own evolution from maybe those first few years at Bain to what you've done most recently, because I think it's just a great path that many people will really find inspiring, as I did. So, Liz, a term that I've really become familiar with is MBB. And I say that in the context of when I was looking to recruit again many years ago, there was McKinsey, Bain, and BCG. And that is a group, as far as we'll call them the top three, has really collapsed in some ways into being MBB. People thinking about it as just one big firm, not recognizing that they're actually three, that they have different cultures, they have different fields.

Jeremy:

Like doesn't matter hired by any, I'm in, I'm on track, as opposed to like really critically evaluating them, I think is fair.

Harold:

I think that's right. So with that in mind, what's the difference between the MBBs? How should people think about it both function-wise, geographically, just what should people consider? Sure.

Liz:

And first of all, if you get a a job anywhere within the MBB, yes, you are doing very well. You you have uh landed in a place that's gonna be fascinating. I think it gets down to smaller differences. You know, I'm not gonna say one of the three is a better st firm strategy than another. You know, they have different uh strengths in terms of functional and industry specialties, and those come and go over time too. And you can get a good sense of that, you know, online, seeing where they're focused, what they're touting on their website. So, you know, think about if there are practice areas that you'd be more attracted to than others, and then ask, try to find out about the process of specialization. When do they want you to specialize? How much is it your interests versus, you know, gee Harold, you've worked on five automotive cases this year. We think you're an automotive specialist. And then geographically, office by office, there are different cultures and different staffing mechanisms. Like you'll find some offices do a lot of law. Local staffing. And some firms are much more local, staffing-wise, office to office. It might be rare to be staffed on something that is not directly out of the office. And then some firms approach staffing more from a regional level. And, you know, you might be working with a team pulled from several offices. So thinking about that, you know, how do I feel about the travel? Do I feel like I'm the kind of person that would develop stronger relationships if I, you know, see someone in the office kitchen fairly regularly? You know, things like that I think are going to make the difference.

Harold:

Yeah. That that certainly makes sense.

Jeremy:

That's that's um I think that's important. That's a great place to end because I think that's that's probably the most uh pressing uh topic on any on any individual's mind who's entering this field. Like, like what really are the differences and and how do I understand the nuances? And I think we've just captured that. So I think let's let's go it on top with that one. Uh thank you so much for joining us today. That's really, really helpful. And I think anyone who's who's interested in consulting should be, I hope they would be listening to this podcast. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you very much, Liz. We really appreciate it. Exciting news! You can now access OnTrack by MBA Mission for free. Take our two-minute onboarding questionnaire to personalize your learning path. Choose the free plan, and you'll have unlimited access to our complete modules on MBA application timelines, standardized testing, your professional background, community leadership, school selection, and more. You'll also get access to select lessons from our brainstorming, personal statement, essay, resume, and recommendation modules. It's a great introduction to the on track platform and will help you jumpstart the MBA application process. Get started today at ontrack.mba mission.com.