Ep 95 | Harvard Business School vs Stanford GSB

Harvard Business School and Stanford Graduate School of Business sit at the very top of the MBA world—but the experience at each school can be dramatically different.

In this episode of the mbaMission Podcast, Harold Simansky and Jeremy Shinewald welcome MBA Admissions Executive Director Katy Lewis, a Harvard JD-MBA and former Stanford GSB admissions evaluator, to compare these two powerhouse programs.

The conversation explores how Harvard and Stanford evaluate candidates, what kinds of applicants succeed in the admissions process, and how the programs differ in culture, curriculum, and career outcomes.

Whether you’re deciding where to apply or simply curious about how these schools differ, this episode offers practical guidance for anyone considering an elite MBA program.

00:00 Introducing the HBS vs Stanford GSB Debate

02:35 What HBS and Stanford GSB Look for in Applicants

10:57 Harvard’s Case Method vs Stanford’s Teaching Style

17:56 Culture, Location, and Career Paths

28:32 Why Admissions Can Feel Like a Lottery

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Transcript

Introducing the HBS vs Stanford GSB Debate

Katy Lewis 0:00

The case method is a huge differentiator.

Jeremy Shinewald 0:03

I think the case method is incredible. There are going to be some people who just don't fit with the case method.

Katy Lewis 0:08

Everybody knows that Stanford has the highest number of startups within five years of graduating. Go out 15 years? Harvard swamps it.

Harold Simansky 0:17

Harvard is both physically an island as opposed to Stanford. All they talk about is crossing the street.

Katy Lewis 0:23

When you're choosing between these schools, it really depends on what your career goal is. I have actually recommended people to apply to Harvard and Stanford who didn't think they had a shot at it.

Harold Simansky 0:45

Today on the NBA Mission Podcast, we are diving into one of the ultimate MBA matchups: Harvard Business School versus the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Two powerhouse programs with global reputations, yet very distinct cultures, teaching styles, and student experiences. Is one a better fit for future CEOs and another for startup founders? How did their class sizes, leadership philosophies, and campus communities really compare? To help us unpack all that and more, we are joined by Katie Lewis, a Harvard JD MBA and former Stanford GSB Applications Evaluator, who has deep and unique insights into what makes each program unique. Whether you're deciding where to apply or refine your essays, this episode offers grounded practical guidance to help you confidently chart your path toward either of these iconic programs.

Jeremy Shinewald 1:34

Okay, so we're here with my old friend Harold Samanski and certainly my old friend Katie Lewis, who has such a wealth of experience. I'm sure, as we said in the intro, in the official intro that Harold did, having gone to HBS, HLS, and having been a Stanford admissions reader, has an incredible perspective on both these schools. And also, you know, admitting 2-3% of these classes each year herself, you know, just having helped over the years, full like just an incredible diversity of international applicants. I mean, I I we'll get to it as we go through this, but um couldn't be luckier to have someone who has this depth of experience on the show to talk about comparing HBS to GSP.

Harold Simansky 2:17

Yeah, let me just highlight one thing. If I'm working with someone who's looking to apply to HBS, GSP, both, the person that I will frequently call is Katie. And that's the nice thing about MBA mission. The reality is that a huge amount of resources here, Katie maybe just being our most precious one at this point.

What HBS and Stanford GSB Look for in Applicants

Jeremy Shinewald 2:34

And Katie, and Katie will say, Harold, stop sending me clients because I'm already trying to play. That's it. Because she is booked up so quickly. Anyone who's watching this is basically like, you know, you can call her and see if you can see if you can get some time with her, but it it's it's tough. Um so thanks for being here, Katie. So let's talk about. I mean, let's let's just at the highest level. You've got we've got candidates, you know, both these schools have have, you know, I hate to say it like this, but huge rejection rates. Um let's talk about who gets in. I mean, who gets into these schools?

Katy Lewis 3:06

The people who get in are not box checkers. And and what I mean by box checkers, they're often very high high performers. They did really well in school. They they get into the top investment bank or consulting firm or the top private equity firm. They they have one or two outside, you know, volunteer activities. But there's nothing that really shows their direction. They haven't become the architect of their own career. They're just checking the boxes, they're doing the next thing all their friends are doing. Those people rarely get in to these schools. What Harvard and Stanford are looking for are leaders, not MBA students. They're looking for leaders in any area: private industry, public sector, nonprofit sector. And if you're looking for leaders, basically you're looking for people with inner drive.

Jeremy Shinewald 4:03

What I always say to applicants when they ask me about who gets into both, and just to, I think sort of crystallizes what you're saying, is the applicants who get into the other M7 schools generally have made the most of their opportunities. And the ones who get into Stanford, Harvard tend to create the opportunities. And I think that's a way of like getting a little bit beyond kind of the moniker of like leader. It's like they often can put a flag in the ground and say, this is mine. I created this. I didn't just, I wasn't just given a project or I, you know, it doesn't mean they had to create the next Tesla. They just, there's some ownership over some outcomes and the creation of those outcomes. And I think that's like layered on top of the good grades and the good, you know, the great G Mat score or or whatever it is, there's like, there is this spirit almost not in like the conventional sense of entrepreneurship, but of just of of you know, more abstract sense of creating something on their own. If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at MBA Mission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you.

Katy Lewis 5:31

That's what I mean by being the architect of your own career. They they have they know where they're going.

Jeremy Shinewald 5:36

Yeah.

Katy Lewis 5:36

And they're putting the pieces together to do that, and it shows.

Jeremy Shinewald 5:40

Yeah.

Katy Lewis 5:40

It absolutely shows in what they do.

Jeremy Shinewald 5:42

Yeah, and that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that they're they're perfect applicants. They can still have obstacles in their path and they can still, you know, reveal challenges. Like I think there's this perception of the Stanford or Harvard grad as being like perfect.

Katy Lewis 5:55

Oh, no, not at all. Many have had very nonlinear careers, have had real setbacks, real personal hardships in their families. This is the kind of drive that gets you in is often forged in those experiences. Right.

Harold Simansky 6:14

Right, right. As I think about my folks who have been dual accept, and that's also extremely rare into both HBS and GSB, it's sort of uh interesting to think about their through line. One was an illegal immigrant, literally came here, ended up going to top Ivy League school, but every piece of it he did alone. He did really following a North Star. And interestingly, another one is just not so dissimilar in the sense of political refugee, Eastern Europe landed there, but at that point then you know got himself into college, which is not an immaterial thing, and then got himself, you know, a job and then eventually worked into private equity. Just this notion here of being so self-driven, I mean really exceptional in that way. And again, it's so far beyond scores, it's so far beyond GPA. It's almost like I will never say they're not relevant. Clearly, everyone has to check, quote, check those boxes, but the reality is it's just so less important if you think about these per people, personal stories. Right.

Jeremy Shinewald 7:16

They're just intangibles, I guess. And that's why when people call and they're years out, they go, Well, what do I need to do? Give me, give me the three things I need to do. It's like it doesn't, it doesn't work that way. I've I I've in many ways, some of the best applicants that I've that I've worked with who've gotten into one or both of these schools, have had no intention of going to business school. And they've just they've just been doing things incredibly well and and arrived there and they're like, oh, I need this now. And I've got a resume, a life resume, that says I I just make the most of my experiences. Okay, so all of that said, there's still applicants who come from overrepresented fields. So what do you, what do you, what do you make of the applicant from consulting, the applicant of from private equity? And I and I I want to tee you up for this because the one of the things I love the most about the way Katie works with clients is she'll say to an applicant straight up, yeah, you you're not ready. You need you need two more years. You need you need to do this. So tell us about when you get an overrepresented applicant and how you evaluate them.

Katy Lewis 8:17

Basically, overrepresented applicants have to show the same intangible drive. They have to be doing something different within that world. For example, I I have one private equity client who's actually within her private equity firm doing one of the first new company builds, brand new healthcare company.

Harold Simansky 8:40

Right.

Katy Lewis 8:41

Basically being an entrepreneur within a healthcare company, um, or a consultant who created the behavioral health practice at McKinsey in New York. Um you know, those kinds of exceptional things people do where they've taken a theme or an idea and pushed it in and made it monetizable. Um it's not many people from overrepresented backgrounds, investment banking, private equity, consulting, come from very distinct personal backgrounds. People have very different struggles, very different accomplishments that that really set them apart and can make it and can make show that edge that you need for a Harvard or Stanford.

Jeremy Shinewald 9:30

But one of the things that, you know, the examples you gave, and I think they're quite relevant about doing sort of that, having that, again, having that thing you own in your consulting firm or your or your bank or whatever, whatever it might be. But also, like, you know, we're here, we're here in San Francisco. Um, I remember a private equity applicant that I worked with who was San Francisco-based many years ago. And and she, I think, was uh extremely smart. She's the one of those, one of those people you just meet and just oozes competence. Um but like I think she was, you know, a top-notch private equity associate. I don't doubt that in any way, but her excellence came through her volunteer activities. And she just she she had done a remarkable project with the head of a nonprofit to effectively create a whole bunch of mechanisms that just professionalize that nonprofit and you know, budgeting and and and reporting and all these types of things. And it was just, you know, she did and she did it out of again out of sheer interest. And um, you know, she just had something to say, this is this is mine. I I I did this, and and it required some, again, some like some like really non-conventional entrepreneurship to do it, to like have a passion and interest for this area, maybe for this nonprofit, and then and then just say, okay, they don't have this. I'm gonna convince them they need this, and now this is mine. So, okay, we're talking a lot about the about about who gets in and who doesn't.

Harvard’s Case Method vs Stanford’s Teaching Style

Harold Simansky 10:57

We really lump together always Harvard and Stanford. These people are applying to Harvard and Stanford, they get into Harvard frequently or Stanford. But the reality is they're very different schools, they attract very different people. Gatie, just tell us your, you know, how are the schools different? How do they attract different people?

Katy Lewis 11:12

I think that well, well, the case method is a huge differentiator. Um, it's it's actually a way of training you to think. It's not a curriculum. It's it's it's most people don't understand how the case methods. I I was actually offered a perfect teaching position at Harvard, and I would have taught one of the nine classes to the full school. And when I went through the recruiting process, this is after I'd worked for McKinsey for five years, I went through the recruiting process and talked to a lot of the professors that I'd be co-teaching with, and I learned for the first time, and I was surprised at this, having gone to Harvard Business School, that what I thought looked like an offhand teaching process where the teacher says, Well, what about this? And what about this? And the class chimes in was actually a very deliberately structured set of questions. If I had worked at Harvard Business School before I taught every one of the classes that was going to be taught across nine sections, I would have met with the other professors teaching it and the person who wrote the case, and we would map out what is the best sequence of questions to scaffold to the decision. And the point of the case method is the professor never tells you what the answer is. The professor elicits the evidence and responses from the class in a structured way to scaffold up to the class realizing, oh, that's what I should be learning from this. It's based on a Japanese Socratic method. It is profoundly educational, it honestly changes how you think. The reason, in my opinion, when I went to business school, most business schools use the case method. They don't now because it's too hard. Harvard does, and you will see at Harvard Business School as a result of it, some of the best teaching you have ever seen in your life. In contrast, Stanford, which I also like, has this blend of teaching approaches. They do the case method, they don't do it in that structured way at all. And I actually helped a professor at the univer at Berkeley Haas teach one of her international finance classes. She did not use the case method the way Harvard does. She just used it as a story, and then everybody just chatted about it. So Stanford has this variety of lecture classes, team-based classes, some case method, but they're not the same. Stanford has some wonderful professors, many, many of whom I know. And so they have some great professors, but the level of that rigorous teaching excellence that changes how you think is not present.

Jeremy Shinewald 13:54

I think the case method is incredible. And I think like that's right.

Katy Lewis 13:57

Darden, Darden had the case method. So you and they do it well.

Jeremy Shinewald 14:01

Yeah, I love it. I needed that. I needed like that narrative, just like get into it and understand as someone who had no foundation in in business. I was a speechwriter. It just really helped me to contextualize things. But I will play devil's advocate just for the just for the sake of it, for for people who are listening. You should invest yourself. It's a ton of reading, it's a ton of group work. It requires participation in class to get a grade. If you are, if you're a uh shy person, you don't like talking in public, maybe this pushes you out of your comfort zone. Maybe you just don't like it. Maybe it's maybe it's torture for you. So um, you know, again, playing devil's advocate, if you're someone who there are going to be some people who just don't fit with the case method. And every once in a while, someone, like in the good old days when there were more class visits, people would say to me, like, Oh, I went to Harvard, and I like it didn't, it just didn't, I that approach didn't jibe with me. And it's as if there was something like wrong with that person. Like, it's okay not not to not to feel like either of these schools is the right school for you. Like it they're not, they're not so awesome that like they have to fit you. Aspects of a different experience might not be right for you. Well, yeah, absolutely.

Katy Lewis 15:13

Unless there's something wrong with you, you would love either school. I mean, right. But addressing that issue of the case method, frankly, that's a reason to go to Harvard. You know, my daughter actually chose Harvard over Stanford for that very reason. Yes, listen.

Jeremy Shinewald 15:30

If you're shy, I think it's great to get out there and you're not sure.

Katy Lewis 15:32

One of the other things that's uh important to realize is the case method creates engagement. So you're you're at a school like Harvard with 40% of international people all over the world. You are actively in the class all day long talking to them. That's very different from other methods where you go into a lecture class, a third of the people aren't there, they cut the class, another group haven't read the class, they're looking at their Facebook notes. It's a very different engagement experience. The other thing you have to do at Harvard, you have to go to class. You get kicked out. Yeah. You cannot cut class. So if you want a school that's very immersive, very engaged, where everybody in the school is talking about the same case that day, that's it's it's just a different experience.

Jeremy Shinewald 16:19

And I want to be balanced, but it's interesting as like John Byrne this year, uh, our friend John Vyrne, friend of the podcast, Harold and I have podcasted with him in uh on the East Coast. Um, you know, John Byrne wrote an article that I think really upset a lot of people, but that's his job is to be an is to be a journalist about Stanford students basically saying the school's just gotten too easy. Like it's gotten too late.

Harold Simansky 16:42

Stanford has gotten too easy. I have heard that before. Well, I've heard it from my clients. I mean, listen, I've heard it in a very significant way. They're not learning enough. And I'm not saying that's true. I'm just saying that's a that's a knock against these days.

Katy Lewis 16:53

I've had clients say that.

Harold Simansky 16:55

I had a married couple, he went to Stanford, his wife gets into HBS in Stanford, and he was the one who said, send her to HBS. I will make it. I went to MIT, took courses over at HBS, had HBS professors in my classroom doing case method. I get I don't want to sharpen it too much here because case method is wonderful. Some of them come back and say, listen, three-factor model, big finance issues, complicated stuff. I don't care how many smart people you put in the classroom, they ain't getting there.

Katy Lewis 17:26

Actually, one thing people don't know about the case method, for every case, there's a note. The note is a 30 or 40 page chapter on the theory of the case, whatever it is you're studying. So if you if you want the depth, you're getting it.

Harold Simansky 17:43

It's just they're not teaching to it. Right, different to certainly a different approach, and and we don't have to sharpen the edge too much, but let's talk about Stanford and what it means to go to Stanford and why that might be the right choice for you.

Culture, Location, and Career Paths

Katy Lewis 17:55

The clients that I work with who really choose Stanford over Harvard, that example, are ones who want a new cultural experience. I'll give you a great example. I had a PE client who, you know, all East Coast, you know, prep school, college. And he basically he was a really interesting private. He was working in luxury and retail. And he was the kind of PE client who he was working for a cosmetics makeup company, and he actually went into Sacks and asked them to make them up. I mean, he really, really wanted to, he wanted to know what it felt like to be a woman going through that process. So he actually told me when he'd gotten into both, he said, you know, I just really want to go to Stanford because I I just I just don't get this California thing. I really want to be in a place with a different culture and a sort of blue sky approach. So so I have many clients who actually choose it for that cultural experience, and vice versa.

Jeremy Shinewald 18:53

Yes. I'm gonna push you on this though, okay? Let's let's let's work to stereotypes. You are really interested in entrepreneurship or VC, and you are choosing between the two. And obviously, Stanford being in Silicon Valley, you know, having a reputation for launching many startups. You know, I'm I'm just gonna push you on this play devil's advocates.

Katy Lewis 19:15

I'm happy to do this.

Jeremy Shinewald 19:16

Yeah.

Katy Lewis 19:17

Everybody knows that Stanford has the highest number of startups within five years of graduating. Go out 15 years, Harvard swamps it. And they swamp it with larger startups. Harvard sends 170 people a year from every class directly to Silicon Valley. I happen to live in Silicon Valley. The startups are evenly run by Harvard and Stanford graduates. Harvard graduates actually dominate Silicon Valley. In many ways, Harvard built Silicon Valley. Harvard was had a research center in Silicon Valley, had the rock center in Silicon Valley before Stanford ever hit number one as a business school. So Harvard is an incredible, it's also probably the top venture capital school. Now, given that, I do have clients this year who chose Stanford over Harvard for very specific reasons that are location specific. Uh one who wants to do a cutting edge, basically, he wants to set up an AI firm in what's called spirit technology, which is the technology being brought to bear to help people, human flourishing. You know, whether it's mental flourishing, physical flourishing, whatever. It's supposed to be a three billion dollar.

Harold Simansky 20:45

That sounds very Stanford.

Katy Lewis 20:47

He very much wants, he lives in Silicon Valley, he is actually already a successful AIVC, but he wanted to step back and actually go to Stanford, study this new phenomenon, and really ramp it up. And he felt he needed to do that. So this is location specific. I have another client, a very successful doctor, psychiatrist, who is passionate about revamping how we do mental health, behavioral health in our culture. Stanford University Medical School is top in behavioral health, better than Harvard. So he chose Stanford. So people choose Stanford for very specific. The other thing I have several clients in biotech, one who's doing a biotech startup with the University of Washington, um, others who are researching biotech startups, they want Stanford because the biotech startup community is here. However, the larger biotech industries at Harvard. I mean, Harvard is by far the bigger hub for healthcare and biotech, except for these specialties. So it really depends if you if you want that locational advantage, it's you know, you choose one.

Jeremy Shinewald 22:00

School or the other. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: One thing I find I see one thing I find to be interesting is that you know you've you've got all these, you've got uh such a depth and and you know all these stats, and and and it's amazing. But I feel like when I'm talking to applicants, and you're you're saying you're your applicants choose Harvard over over the GSB. I feel like those who I've I've worked with have gotten to both have almost uniformly chosen the GSB. And I believe that the I'm curious what both of you guys have to say about this, but I feel like the student sentiment is that Stanford carries more prestige these days. That it's it's it's more it's it's more selective, that it's a little, and we both live in Boston and love Boston, uh, but that's a little cooler and hipper to be in the valley. It's definitely hotter.

Katy Lewis 22:39

You know, and and Stanford is a prodigious marketing machine, Stanford University. So absolutely. I feel people like in their hip. The bulk of my clients, when I say nine, when I look back over 13 years, the four or five or six who've gotten into both schools, 95% have chosen Harvard. Many of them are my international clients because Harvard has 90,000 alums worldwide. Stanford has 23,000. Many of them are my joint program clients who want to do really big things that are public sector oriented. They want to be do the Harvard Kennedy school, they want to be on the East Coast. So my international clients very almost always choose Harvard rather than Stanford. The other split according to industry reasons, but it's I I do think Stanford is definitely right now, AI is very popular at Stanford as well. My my AI clients have chosen Stanford. So it's it it's these things ebb and flow, but I a lot of it is is the response to the marketing.

Harold Simansky 23:53

Yeah. Yeah, and listen, uh, there's a certain romanticism, I would say. There's a romanticism about coming up. And Katie, God bless Harvard. By all means, again, MIT took course at Harvard. Harvard is both physically an island, is very much separated from the university as alternative.

Katy Lewis 24:10

Which is a real which is a drawback if you want to do a joint program.

Harold Simansky 24:13

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. As opposed to Stanford, all they talk about is crossing the street.

Katy Lewis 24:19

That's one of Stanford's real strengths, is its multidisciplinary approach. The other thing that Stanford allows, this is other than the weather, which is a big drop, it's easier to go to Stanford. This sounds terrible. My clients who do want to do a startup while they're in school or run their VC firm while they're in school, you can go to Stanford, have a good time, get a top degree, and do that. You cannot do that at Harvard.

Jeremy Shinewald 24:48

Right, right, right, right, right.

Katy Lewis 24:50

The workload is a factor.

Jeremy Shinewald 24:51

So, what about um okay, pushing you even further? Like, what about like dual degree applicants? Are there certain dual degrees that you feel like you know, you're better off doing, you know, I mean, I they don't all they don't always offer the same dual degrees, but you're better off doing X at Stanford or X at Harvard.

Katy Lewis 25:08

The people I work with who want to do dual degrees want to solve some of the most complex problems we're dealing with. That's why you dual degree. You need multiple perspectives because you're gonna deal with a trisector problem. Classic examples education, healthcare, energy, sustainability, all trisector dual. Similarly, if you want to do anything that verges on the public sector, you really a dual degree is incredibly helpful. So one of the when you're choosing between these schools, it it really depends on what your career goal is. If it's a specific industry career goal, you're probably indifferent. If you really do have that larger global or public sector objective, the East Coast is better.

Harold Simansky 26:01

Right, right, right.

Katy Lewis 26:02

I mean, it's very hard to there is no carbon Kennedy School on the West Coast. Um, it just isn't. You can do the Carbon Kennedy School concurrently with Stanford, but all the rest of the schools that do it are on the East Coast. So it's being in that milieu is is uh a deciding factor. And for my international clients who want to play a public role in their countries, it's doubly important.

Harold Simansky 26:28

Yeah, I mean, listen, on the other side, when it comes to sustainability, energy, there's something I think really unique about Stanford in the sense of you have the IEPR, you you have Door, uh the Doer School, you have just the general ethos of the school. That's true.

Katy Lewis 26:43

DOR, who is a friend of mine and classmate from Harvard business school, has put Stanford on the map. But California in general is way ahead in sustainability, alternative energy, period. Um Berkeley's very strong in that area as well. So that is definitely a specialty that where one would come and I I work with people, I'm working with someone right now doing the EI per degree. Um Harvard, however, has a stronger, obviously, the MPP at the Kennedy School makes a big difference. Um, I worked with a client, people who are drawn to the biohub of Harvard. I helped a client get into both Harvard and Stanford. He got into a master's program at each school's medical school. Harvard would not allow him to do the double degree. So he and I looked at the curriculum and talked Harvard into letting him do it. He's finished it. I now have another client who's thinking of doing the same thing, and I've put them in touch. But Harvard is slower to do the multidisciplinary things. It's physically harder to do it. The clocks don't work, so you lose time. Basically, you arrive late to every class, which I did as a JDMBA. Um, but it's changing. But right now, I'd say it really depends on what JDMB, what joint degree you're looking for.

Harold Simansky 28:11

Right. I think I don't want to overfocus on the fact that people are choosing between Harvard and Stanford. Uh we once looked at the numbers. The number of people actually are joint excepts. It's tiny. It's very tiny. It's a very small group. Very, very small. Which which then that speaks to the fact when you speak to someone for the first time, does it bubble up in your mind he's more of a Harvard? He's more of a Stanford? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Why Admissions Can Feel Like a Lottery

Katy Lewis 28:31

What I learned working at at Stanford just these schools have three highly qualified applicants for each spot, period. I mean, I used to tell the director of admissions at Stanford that he could just throw darts at the applications. There's no need to read them. So these schools are routinely. I I explain painfully to my clients applying to these schools that they may be highly qualified, they may have all the qualities they need. Ultimately, it's a lottery. There is this law, and I tell them exactly what that lottery felt like when I worked at Stanford. I would look through for every eight applications I read, I could only say we will interview one. That was my quota. That was a rule, actually. That was my quota.

Harold Simansky 29:19

Yeah.

Katy Lewis 29:20

And so it'd usually be these three people in that group of eight, and I'd go, gosh, which one are we going to choose? And I go, Well, I chose a consultant last time. So this time I think I'll go with a banker.

unknown 29:31

Right.

Katy Lewis 29:31

It's that lottery factory factor.

Jeremy Shinewald 29:35

Yeah. I mean, I I remember like I'm I living in Boston, uh, you're gonna bump into, you know, you're gonna just bump into people in the community. And I there's a someone in my community who is a she's an admissions officer at Harvard, and we've had we've had, you know, fairly candid chats. And she's like, look, I I get a stack of files, I read them. Some people resonate with me, they might resonate with someone else. There's a subjective law, in fact.

Katy Lewis 29:59

You cannot dial your way into these schools. You cannot.

unknown 30:02

Yeah.

Katy Lewis 30:02

And and and there is, unless, as I said earlier, unless something's wrong with you, there is no right school for you.

Jeremy Shinewald 30:08

Right, that's right. Yeah, it's and and like when people and people said they're like, well, like, as as if, like, yeah, as as if these are two just totally distinct worlds that there's no overlap. Like, oh, well, it sounds like you're a Stanford, as if like there are people who do get into both, and and and you know, I I think they do a very good job, maybe we can talk about this, they do a very good job of like controlling for that. So how do they how do the schools basically like it's not a coincidence that there isn't a lot of overlap? So if you're applying to Harvard and Stanford out of a private equity firm, you know, uh it's it's not a mystery. So how do they how do they figure out how not to have overlapping admits?

Katy Lewis 30:47

It's kind of like recruiting for sports in college. What one of the certainly in the private equity world, and I suspect this goes on in the top consulting firms, these top schools have their contacts at these firms. And they will reach out to those firms, usually in November, round one, and they'll sort of sense, try to get us a read on where these high-value applicants, private equity clients, and are all high value from these top firms, where they're likely to go. In generally, you don't get into both. You don't get interviewed at both for that reason. It's this is both a curse and a blessing. If you really want one of the schools, you can signal that to your staffer. If you if you want to stay more neutral, you have to go to a little bit more work. But the schools, neither Harvard nor Sam, they're not talking to each other, but they're just trying to find out is this person legitimately interested in my school? Because none of them wants to have the ding to their yield.

Harold Simansky 31:52

No, that's right. Listen, I think I still want to do this. Yeah, listen, I'm a number of us consultants. We've had that experience. Wonderful people. They come from private equity firm X, Y, or Z. That private equity firm hasn't sent anyone to Stanford for three or four years. Those folks have always been choosing Harvard. At that point, Stanford says, or Harvard says, you know what, forget it. You've just made actually our job easier. Now we don't have to worry about you guys so much.

Jeremy Shinewald 32:14

And I I often say to applicants who I'm curious what you think of this, but I often say to applicants who are, let's say you're at a Boston-based private equity firm and your number one choice is Stanford. Like, you kind of have to find a way without being overbearing to message that a little bit to them. Because they might take it for granted.

Katy Lewis 32:30

It's not that hard to message because what ends up happening, if you look at who goes to Harvard and who goes to Stanford. When I arrived at Harvard Business School, I had gone to Stanford for two years, undergrad, and then gone to Yale. I walked in, and five of my closest friends from Stanford were in my class at Harvard Business School. So people do seek to go to the other coast. So you can explain that, but it's it's it's um the best way to signal interest in a school is to genuinely connect with what that school has to offer.

Harold Simansky 33:00

There's no client, no consult that I speak to that doesn't say, I really want to go to Harvard or Stanford. I really like the Harvard case method. We may not be able to answer this question. What do we say to somebody? It's like, good for you. There's no way it's happening.

Katy Lewis 33:12

I'm um I've actually recommended people to apply to Harvard and Stanford who didn't think they had a shot at it.

Jeremy Shinewald 33:19

Yeah.

Katy Lewis 33:19

And I said, Why isn't Harvard on your list? And they get in. I do have clients who come to me and they say, I only want Harvard or Stanford. And I the first thing I say is, don't do that to me. You know, it's I said, you really need to open your eye. You may be a good candidate for these schools, but it you should be looking at Wharton, you should be looking at MIT. You know, and I tell them actually, I said, whenever you look at a business school, pretend it's the only business school in the world and identify four or five or six really cool programs or courses that you love. Because I can tell you right now, you could go to any one of the top 10 business schools and get a fabulous education. I have had people who do that and they end up going to booth over Harvard, or they make very they start really thinking of what they want and what community they want, and they make different decisions. So I try to get people, I also tell them, I say, look, you're in an industry, it doesn't really matter if you go to one of these schools. If you go into global private equity, go to one of the M7. But you know, if you're in healthcare, it doesn't really matter.

Jeremy Shinewald 34:31

You know what's funny? I have the I have the opposite of a little bit of the opposite of what you're saying, where you're like, you know, pushing people to apply. I mean, I I do push people to apply, but I often say if the if you're only applying to Harvard and Stanford, it's like, no matter how good an applicant you are, are you ready not to be in school next year? Because it's so competitive. And like inevitably, you know, the applicants get their interviews, like, you know, not everyone gets in. Um, but it what's funny is that I had one applicant who I was like, this is the best applicant I think I've ever seen. I I wish I could tell you more about him, but it would just be it would immediately identify him. Um, had just done something so specific in like in a niche world like athletics or entrepreneurship or entertainment, where it's like this person had a profile and um, but also just amazing scores and just done great charitable work. And I said I said to him, you know, I never say this, but I would bet that you're gonna get into both. You're just you're such a standout. He actually, he actually only got into one. And and he got into one, and and you know what, his career has been like has been phenomenal, like absolutely phenomenal. Like, no tears to this guy that he only got into one. And again, I've certainly helped many people who've got into got into both. I'm very not many, but but a hand certainly many is an exaggeration. I would say I've I've certainly helped more than a handful who've got who've gotten to both. Um, but yeah, like if you're if you're only applying to those schools, you're you're just you might be reapplying next year. And if and if that's okay with you, it's okay with me.

Katy Lewis 35:58

You know, they often say too, oh well, I'm gonna apply to these in round one, and if I don't get on, I'll do round two. And I say, well, get ready for the morale hit. Yeah. Because you're not, I said it's way better to apply to four or five in round one and then get kind of buoyed up by the interviews you get. It's it the other thing, you know, it's a very, you know, I'm obviously working with a lot of people applying to these top schools. It it I really try to reset their mindset from the beginning to think, look, this is just a business school. Right. This is not this is not a life, this is not a life or death situation. I say, I mean, for example, Warren Buffett applied to Harvard Business School twice and he did not get in. He did okay. Yeah, he's fine.

Harold Simansky 36:44

That's right. Jet Ma applied 10 times to Harvard Business School, still a billionaire.

Katy Lewis 36:50

I mean, Harvard wrote an article ten or so years ago in their I Love Dye magazine saying these are the people we wish we'd accepted.

Harold Simansky 36:57

Right.

Katy Lewis 36:58

So business schools make mistakes, so you just have to.

Jeremy Shinewald 37:01

Or like, or there are just too many good applicants. And people like like I always say to people, like, you are the variable. Like the school, it's the tail wagging the dog sometimes. You know, you you have an awesome group of people who are applying, you're gonna have some amazing, successful people. Like, you know, exactly.

Katy Lewis 37:14

Ultimately there are many different ways to wherever you want to go.

Harold Simansky 37:18

That's right. Absolutely. Um Katie, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time and really truly unique insights that uh there are very few people, probably far less than those who get into Harvard and Stanford, who actually have the sense of these programs, what it takes to get in, the differences between them. So we really thank you for your time today. And if you want to speak to Katie, Jeremy, me for 30 minutes, by all means go to our website, sign up for a free 30-minute consult, and we'll talk to you about Harvard, we'll talk to you about Stanford, and we'll talk to you about any other business school you may be interested in. Thank you so much for being here today.

Jeremy Shinewald 37:54

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