What Business Schools Really Want: The Truth About Extracurriculars | Ep 97

Business schools ask about your activities outside of work but what are they really looking for?

In this episode, host Harold Simansky is joined by MBA Admissions Executive Director Jessica Shklar and MBA Admissions Managing Director Rachel Beck to break down how MBA admissions committees evaluate extracurricular activities. They explain why who you are as a person matters just as much as your professional story, what counts versus what doesn't, and how to find meaningful experiences you might already have, without fabricating anything.

Whether you're a high-hours professional wondering if you have time, someone worried they have nothing, or just want to understand what MBA programs really want to see, this episode will change how you think about your application.

0:00 Why Business Schools Care About Your Activities Outside Work 

2:13 How Are You Connected to Your Communities? 

5:37 Family Responsibilities, High-Hours Professionals, and "Nothing to Share"

7:32 Turning Small Moments Into Big Essays 

12:20 What Makes Activity Descriptions Credible to Admissions 

16:33 Non-Traditional Activities and Why Authenticity Wins 

25:13 Business Schools Want to Know Who You Are as a Person

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Transcript

Why Business Schools Care About Your Activities Outside Work 

Rachel Beck 0:00

This is your marketing pitch. It's not just your career goals, it's not just your honors and accolades that you've received. It's the person that you're bringing to the table.

Jessica Shklar 0:10

Saying you don't have time basically is saying I'm not going to be as good an applicant as someone who has made time.

Harold Simansky 0:16

Really, extracurriculars, extraprofessional, whatever it is, also says who you are.

Jessica Shklar 0:20

Business schools care about who you are as a person, not just who you are as a professional.

Harold Simansky 0:36

On today's episode of the MBA Mission Podcast, we're tackling a topic that comes up frequently with MBA applicants: extracurricular activities, particularly those that fall outside the traditional mold. Many candidates wonder why business schools care about what they do outside of work. And just as often they worry they simply do not have the time to take on additional commitments. We'll unpack what admissions committees are actually looking for, talking about how extracurriculars can demonstrate leadership and character, how applicants can rethink the idea of community service, and why meaningful engagement with the communities already in your life. Whether this is mentoring colleagues, participating in cultural or religious groups, or organizing local initiatives can be just as powerful as more formal volunteer work. We will also discuss the underlying trait admissions committees are really trying to identify through these experiences a genuine sense of contribution and selflessness. Okay, we're here today to talk about extracurriculars. I'm immediately going to change terms here. First of all, extracurriculars are what happens during college. I think frequently we're talking about extraprofessional, and extraprofessional doesn't mean what happens at work. What it really means is outside of your normal job responsibilities, what happens at work.

Jessica Shklar 1:49

So I think I can pick on a wording again, if you're going to, that it's not outside of work. It's outside of your job.

Harold Simansky 1:55

Yes.

Jessica Shklar 1:55

So it can take place at work.

Harold Simansky 1:57

Yes, I think that's a better way of terming it. Absolutely.

Jessica Shklar 2:00

It's just what you're not paid for.

How Are You Connected to Your Communities? 

Harold Simansky 2:01

Okay. That's an even better way of terming it at that point. Okay, so now let's talk about extracurriculars. What do business schools care about and what is good look like versus bad? And is there such a thing?

Rachel Beck 2:13

I I'm gonna take us one step back because a number of years ago now, I stopped talking about really extracurriculars and community service because I felt that it was it was so narrow that clients were like, I don't have anything, and it's so it's uh what do you mean? So I started re-like branding this as how are you connected to the communities you are part of? That's the way I talk about it. Okay. And that means your work community, do you mentor people? Do you help with an internship program? Do you training sessions? Do recruiting, do you sit on any committees, right? That's all in your work life outside of your direct line of work. What are you involved in any way with um where you went to undergrad, even informally? Have you mentored students? You're part of an alumni group. Are there things you just really enjoy doing in your life that you go above and beyond? And an example I use literally on every consultation that I do is I have a lot of clients who like fitness. It's not just about their own personal fitness goals. They go to Orange Theory, they go to CrossFit or whatever they do, but they help other people reach their fitness goals or they organize social outings for people in these classes. So I like this big tent because a lot of stuff can fit under it. That's correct. And because of that, I think suddenly the applicant's eyes open up to, well, I have things. Right. Because it's scary otherwise.

Harold Simansky 3:47

That's right. It is scary to say, oh my God, I'm doing nothing.

Jessica Shklar 3:51

Right. And I I try to break it down. Also, I love that idea of how are you connected with the communities that someone I'm gonna steal from you and start using. The way I phrase it is I ask them on consultations or my clients three questions. And I say it's the same question, but phrased three different ways, and trying to elicit different information. And one is, what organizations are you a part of? It could be a recruiting team at work, it could be a book club, but what is an organizational group? The second question is what hobbies and interests do you do that aren't part of an organization? But you run five days a week, you go to the gym every day, you whatever, you write poetry, what other? And then the last question I ask is, how have you made a difference to people around you? And it's something that you do because of who you are. So this could be during COVID, you went and you took a vacation from work to go look after your grandmother. It could be that your sister had a friend who was interviewing at your company and you helped her out. And by positioning it in three different ways, they realize that they're they are doing something. These people are high, our clients, applicants are energetic. They're top-notch employees, they're professional. They're not going home at the end of the day and staring at four walls until the work starts again the next day. They're doing stuff. So let's find out what that is.

Jeremy Shinewald 5:01

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Family Responsibilities, High-Hours Professionals, and "Nothing to Share"

Harold Simansky 5:36

That's right, and you really glossed over something that I think is really worth talking about. Many of us do have responsibilities to our family, and that counts. Certainly, if you had to take off two weeks or three weeks from work to fly back to country to take care of someone in your family, that counts. That's something that actually really says a lot more about you than maybe on the board of X, Y, or Z.

Jessica Shklar 5:57

Right. And I love that phrase. People say to me all the time, well, does this count? I can't even use that. Everything counts. We don't know that everything's going to go into an essay. But when you're brainstorming, when you're talking about assessing your life, everything counts. Business schools don't care if you are serving food at a homeless shelter or babysitting your cousins for free three nights a week because they need extra support. There it all counts because it's all part of your life with who you are.

Harold Simansky 6:25

Just to talk a little bit more, for those people who are working 60 or 88 hours a week, how should they think about it? Or is it something that they should think about differently? Particularly if the answer, and sometimes it is, is really no, I'm working 68 hours a week.

Turning Small Moments Into Big Essays 

Rachel Beck 6:38

Well, they have to we hear this all the time, right? Like, I work so hard, I don't have any time. So with people that I encounter who say that, I say, all right, let's step back. Are you involved in anything at work, right? Like outside of your direct line of work? Are you involved? I have clients who have been like the social chair of their analyst class. Or years ago, I had a client that every Sunday night she invited everybody to come to her apartment and they'd either order in and or she would cook. And it was just like this great social engagement. Or there are things you're doing for your church or your synagogue that you're going anyway. So the excuse that I have I work so hard that I have no free time doesn't really hold up. And you should just start looking at what do I do that I enjoy that I'm doing? And then suddenly there are things on your list that you have.

Jessica Shklar 7:32

And also remember, you're competing against people who are working 68 hours a week and have those activities. So saying you don't have time basically is saying I'm not going to be as good an applicant as someone who has made time. So, and then other question to your last point of what are you already doing, as that was what's what I say to them. What are you doing? Not for business school. But you don't just go home, you do something. I remember working with a client years ago who was very long hours, really did not have a lot of time. And he had two particular stories that really worked so well for the this kind of issue for people who are so so um time challenged. One was that his family was scattered in multiple countries, and they had really lost touch. And he made a point of organizing a Sunday phone call with siblings and parents in about eight different countries just to stay connected. And it was his initiative, and he did it. It was a he didn't do it because he was applying to business school. He did it because he missed his family. And it was a way we were able to use that to talk about making connections and driving people. And the other thing that I loved was every day when he came home from work, he got off the subway in Manhattan and there was a newsstand, and he would buy a candy bar on his way home from the news seller. And the news seller was a refugee who had lost both his legs to a bomb. And every day the news man would smile at him and say, How was your day? And then say, I'm doing great. And my client finally said to him, Why do you say you're doing great? Like, here you are, you're and he said, I have my family. I'm happy. And actually that became the trigger for him to create this. That is not an extracurricular. That is a story that he did because of who he is. And we turned it into a beautiful essay about staying connected, about looking at the positive side of life.

Harold Simansky 9:14

Yeah, no, no, that's right. And listen, I think you really hit on something. Really, extracurriculars, extraprofessional, whatever it is, also says who you are, what's important. So that's when I tell folks okay, if reading is important to you, by all means put it down, but don't stop there. Tell me you like reading historic fiction, or tell me just something so I can really grab onto it and think to yourself, okay, here's a person who is just not the first half of their resume. It's really a person who goes beyond that.

Rachel Beck 9:41

I think that applicants have to remember that these extracurriculars aren't formulaic. It's not checking the box. That there has to be something to it that connects with them. And I say that, and then I'm gonna put this little asterisk over here because they do have to be able to fill in their applications. So the essays are one part of the story where you can tell more about meeting the uh the candy vendor and and arranging these calls with your relatives and kind of the idea of staying connected, which is amazing. I love that story. But they still also have to have some kind of organized something that they can put down in the application because it's a cold, long day in August or late December when you're filling out your application and it's like, I got nothing.

Jessica Shklar 10:37

Well, let's actually talk about that because I don't know that all applicants watching this have seen the application. And that sometimes people get so caught up in the essays and the GMAT or the GRE that they forget that the application actually is almost like a bunch of little hidden essays. So most schools will say, What do you do outside? What are your extracurriculars? and give you, I don't know, 200 characters to fill something out. And some schools, like Harvard, typically only gives three spaces. But I think Warden Stanford has eight or ten, yeah. And you don't have to fill them all out. But if you can only fill out one and you're staring at a blank of nine, you're gonna feel really bad about your application. And why do that to yourself? So there, I usually talk about th three places where extracurriculars come up. One is the application. There's going, they're going to ask for a list. You have to put them in. Yes, hobbies and interests, yes, college activities, but the farther away college was, the fewer of those you could put in. And even if you're just two years out of school, not more than one or two of those. Um, the second place it comes is the resume, whereas you mentioned the top half and the bottom half of the resume. The bottom half should be robust. And again, don't just put reading, put reading historical fiction, parentheses, have finished 17 novels in the last six months. Well, something. Give your someone who's reading the resume something to grab onto. Um, and remember that a lot of these schools, the person who interviews you only sees the resume. They never see your essays.

Harold Simansky 11:55

That's that's right.

Jessica Shklar 11:56

And so you want that resume to be the one-page marketing pitch. It's this is who I am in entirety. And then the candy vendor story, the the um Sunday night social, that's where essays come in. You wouldn't put on an activity list, buy candy from refugee without legs every week. Like it's not gonna be on there, but it could become an essay, just like the social group is.

What Makes Activity Descriptions Credible to Admissions 

Harold Simansky 12:19

Yeah. Let me add one more place where this really can be very important, and that is the recommendations. Because it is sometimes it's very hard to explain what you do in the office. Mentor juniors, for example, or the person who orders the pizza, or the person who actually organizes the trip, it can be very hard to almost I'm gonna say prove it, to really just you can say these things, but sure, maybe. But if you have a recommender who says, this person is amazing because what they add to the community, let me give you some examples of exactly that, then that makes it really more much more powerful. And then that question is sort of answered.

Jessica Shklar 12:54

But let's put a caution on that, another asterisk, that the recommender should only write about something that they have experienced. If they say, I know this applicant is very involved in their community, it sounds like you, the applicant, has just fed them information. If that recommender is also on the board or has donated money and has personal experience with your activity, then it's fine to write about. But just writing as if they don't really know you, they're just writing what they've told, that's really risky.

Harold Simansky 13:20

No, no, no.

Rachel Beck 13:20

But I mean a lot of this activity can happen within the workplace, right? This mentor.

Harold Simansky 13:25

That's what I meant, actually.

Rachel Beck 13:27

I actually, when a client has two or more things that they do outside of their direct line of work within their professional community, I create a section on the resume called other company contributions or other firm contributions that goes right under, like, I work at JP Morgan, but I'm the de facto social chair of my analyst class. I, you know, mentored three interns summer 2024 and 25, and it goes there. And since I started doing this 12 years ago, it's an interview point every time. That's so interesting. Always gets questions about that section because it's right there. It's hard to ignore it. I always say to my clients, what do the admissions committee want to know about you? They want to know that you're not selfish.

Harold Simansky 14:12

That that's right. That's right.

Rachel Beck 14:14

This section or the or this part of your application, all the things you do outside of work shows that you're not selfish.

Harold Simansky 14:20

Yeah, and you're gonna be a good community member.

Jessica Shklar 14:22

Well, and that's really what it comes down to, being a good community member. I ask people to envision you go to school and you're in your first week, second week, and you call home. Well, you don't want to call home and say, I can't believe I'm here. There are old-fashioned phone, there are a whole bunch of duds in this class, right? You want to call home and say, I cannot believe my classmates, these people are amazing. Well, other people want to say that about you too. So you can't be the dud. Yeah. You have to be amazing.

Harold Simansky 14:49

Right. And I also love to use some of the terms Harvard Business School uses, engage citizen. And I think that's a really great illustrative term in the sense of engaged means you are truly working with other people, living with them, playing with them, whatever it is. And citizen meaning it's not just about you, it's about the community as a whole.

Jessica Shklar 15:05

And it goes back to the phrase that we hear so much in business school: past behavior is a predictor of future success. If you have a college section on your resume that just shows academic awards, the school, the business school has no way of knowing that you were an engaged citizen of your college community. If you don't have that firm experience section, they don't know that you are an engaged citizen of your company community. Well, how are they now going to assume that you'll be an engaged citizen of the business school community? And they want you to be because they want those two years in business school to be the best two years of your life so that you build lifelong friendships, so that you are an active engaged alum, so that you give money, so that you come back to reunions. Because if your experience there is incredible because you meet incredible people and there are all these activities, you will it it enhances the reputation and brand of the business school.

Harold Simansky 15:55

No, absolutely.

Rachel Beck 15:57

And I think a lot of applicants overlook that point exactly. They don't understand that you're basically making this is your marketing pitch. It's it's not just your career goals, it's not just your honors and accolades that you've received, it's the person that you're bringing to the table. Right. And this is where you get to tell about who you are as a person and who you're going to be in that B-school community. So I think that's very important.

Non-Traditional Activities and Why Authenticity Wins

Harold Simansky 16:25

No, that's right. And again, there's no right answers here. There's answers about you. There's genuine answers, but there's no right answers by any means.

Jessica Shklar 16:32

Who do you think has the most problem with this? What kind of applicants do you feel, besides the ones who are working 68 hours a week, who say, I can't believe I'm going to be asked to do this. So why do I have to be involved with this?

Harold Simansky 16:43

Aaron Powell Listen, in my mind, I think about who were they in college? If they're library dwellers, and some of us were, I mean, for all sorts of different reasons, then in some ways that could be a problem. But again, it's less of a problem if you acknowledge it. I think what also honestly what is a problem is someone comes to me six or eight months beforehand, and then they say, I haven't really done much, and they're right. What do we tell them at that point? You've six to eight months, because it does seem sort of mercenary to then sign up for something.

Jessica Shklar 17:12

Well, I usually tell them, look at what you've done in the past when you had more time and pick that up. Because now it's a continuous activity where there was a break. Yes. And that adds depth to it. So something that you did in college, something you did your first year out of school. Now can you get back engaged? Then I'll say, Wait, what do you do, right? If you read, okay, quickly form a book club. Now it's reading with a book club. That's right. Absolutely. And then the last thing is there's a lot of volunteer activities that are episodic. They're a one-day event. And if you can find those, one of my favorite, I don't have any connection to this organization, but Achilles International is a running group that pairs able-bodied and disabled runners. So many of our clients who work 60 to 80 hours a week go running at 5 a.m. before work. And you know what? Now partner with a disabled runner, go running at 5 a.m. five days a week, three times by yourself and twice with a blind runner.

Rachel Beck 18:00

And by the way, it becomes a really meaningful experience. I got I suggest Achilles International all the time. And then my clients come back to me and say, wait, this is amazing. I'm going every week. It's it it'd be it's not a chore, it's actually a wonderful, fulfilling experience. And so listen, we get these people all the time who show up and they have nothing and it's you know within the year that they want to apply, and they'll say, but then it just looks like I'm doing this because I'm applying to business school. And I said, Well, two weeks before the application is due, when you sit down to work on your application and you don't have anything to fill in there, that is actually going to feel worse than just getting out there and doing something.

Jessica Shklar 18:44

And even if it's something that you're starting recently, you can also add the depth the way I suggested. But if you are, if it's meaningful, if you actually have an impact. And I always give them this line of say, participation is good, leadership is better. So join a club, join Toastmasters, join something. And those people, those groups are always looking for someone to set up and break down the room, someone to wrote, write a blog post about it. Do something beyond just showing up and sitting in the back of the room. You're not communicating. We used to have a blog post out there called Community Service is not a prison sentence. And it's true, it has to be something you look forward to, or you're not going to get anything out of it.

Rachel Beck 19:20

And leadership doesn't have to just be like, I'm in charge of this session. Leadership comes in like so many different ways. Like back to the Achilles International. I had a client who got involved in this, and he ended up training a blind woman to run the New York City Marathon, which was incredible. That's leadership. You showed up every week, you helped her achieve this goal. That is leadership. There's no question about it. The schools believed it too. It was a very powerful story.

Jessica Shklar 19:48

I've had clients who did that and then sent out a flyer around their work and got two or three friends to go with them. And now they've organized a group to go and do this, and they've magnified their impact. And it's just hanging out with their friends. You don't have to suffer. Another really good one I like is food rescue, where you volunteer and evening to go pick up food from a restaurant and deliver it to a shelter or to someplace, food kitchen, and they tell you how many tons you've saved. And it's such a measurable, and all business school students love metrics. And so to be able to say, I've saved 40 tons of food, that feels really good. And that's a measurable impact. And it's not a lot of time.

Harold Simansky 20:22

And listen, it's also a vehicle to take something that may be very solitary or very much self-focused and turn it into something that's community. Because what does it mean when you read somebody who ran the Boston Marathon five times versus they ran the Boston Marathon once as part of Achilles International?

Rachel Beck 20:39

To build off of this a little bit, I had a client a few years ago who loved he taught himself to be a pizza chef in his apartment during COVID. And it became more than just him being a pizza chef in his apartment. He ended up inviting people over to eat the pizza. And then he really refined his pizza making. And then he started selling his pizza at some of these New York City pizza festivals. And he, next thing you know, he was making pizza some next to some of the most famous pizza chefs in New York. This is a great story.

Harold Simansky 21:11

That's a great story. Absolutely.

Rachel Beck 21:19

And he went to some of these pizza festivals that ended up raising money for people in need, which was like a nice part of it, but it was hardly that part of the story.

Jessica Shklar 21:28

You mentioned people who are involved in their church or synagogue. I'll tell you a story about someone I worked with who was my third year here. She had worked with a different consultant on her two plus two applications, hadn't gotten in, had been continuing to work with him and wasn't feeling good about her essays. And finally, her GMET tutor said, just go talk to Jessica. So she signed on with me and we were working. And it was fine. It was good. We had good stories, but I always felt that she was holding back. And finally, I said, Why? Well, I feel like there's something you're not telling me. And she's like, there is, but I can't talk about it. I'm like, okay, tell me why. She's like, because my other consultant told me I can't talk about religion. I'm like, but you can talk about religion. No, I can't. I'm like, well, here's the difference. If I read your essay and I feel like you're trying to convert me, that's not a good essay. If I read your essay and I learn about your value system and what shaped you and how you live your life, that's a good essay. And she was like, Are you sure? I'm like, I'm sure. I'm sure. And she ended up getting into Stanford and with a very powerful essay. In fact, she ended up rewriting her HBS essay to be about religion as well and her journey because she liked her Stanford one so much.

Harold Simansky 22:38

Right. And I think that also speaks to something that business schools are really looking for, and that's the why. Okay, at the end of the day, it really is not enough to say, okay, I tutor children. At the end of the day, that's terrific. I mean, no question about it. But help me understand why. Is that a jumping-off point for maybe me learning something about you that is not obvious from other pieces of your application?

Jessica Shklar 22:57

I'll tell you one of my favorite religious ones also. I just remember this one of my favorite opening lines ever. This client belonged to this huge mega church, and there were four youth groups. And he was one of the directors of one of the four, not youth groups, like young adult groups, and he was in charge of one of them. And for his um, for their Christmas party, they each had to plan an event. And his opening line of the essay was Tuxedo, tuxedo, pajamas, tuxedo. And the essay was about how his group decided to go in PJs instead of tuxedos because of him. And that that was the vibe they had the whole time was let's can make this group as fun as possible, and let's really engage. And it was about a social, it happened to be through a church. It had nothing to do with the church. It was just how he brought his creativity to the organization.

Rachel Beck 23:41

I think that all too often applicants feel that they have to live within these confines of extracurriculars. And there's a lot of non-traditional extracurriculars that can make very powerful impact in their applications. And that can be about your heritage, your religion, your interests, quirky things about you. They're great. And I want to I want to hear more about that. But to me, that's one of the joys of this job is when someone's like, well, I also like really like this. And I've had clients who are illustrators, um, which I think, you know, and and that I think is really fascinating and not something that's very, very typical. I've had clients who are photographers, you know, just amateur photographers, but take pictures of unusual things like doors in cities. Um and these are just interesting things to talk about. And sometimes they end up tying very nicely to their story in a different way. Like I had a client a few years ago who was dyslexic and really struggled growing up with her dyslexia, but she found sculpture art as a way to kind of figure out spatial issues. And it was just really, really interesting to hear these two things come together. That's a there's extracurricular activities right there.

Harold Simansky 25:13

That's right. And let me also take a minute to mention the fact that that people should also not be sensitive in terms of what they think the admissions committee will think about their extracurriculars. This happens what with fraternities?

Rachel Beck 25:24

Yeah.

Harold Simansky 25:25

Honestly, it's anyone who's in a fraternity, they're gonna frequently ask me, Can I talk about being in a fraternity? I'm like, you were spending hours a week. You were showing real leadership there. And fraternities are not just animal house.

Jessica Shklar 25:37

Well, there are ways to talk about it. Like my son is in a fraternity at a big school, and when he joined, I said to him, you know, if you're gonna take a leadership role, you can be the VP of philanthropy, but you're not gonna be rushed chair. Right. Um like there's just a there's a level of activity that we don't want to talk about. So there is some caution there, but yes, he became rush chair. Yeah. Right, right.

Harold Simansky 25:58

Of course, I had a client who was a VP of beverages. And that was in many ways the most important, really the most important role in the whole fraternity. But we but we we sort of were a little bit more vague with that.

Rachel Beck 26:10

But right. I'm not against the Greek system. Like I was in a sorority growing up and when I was in college, and I felt like it was the ultimate test of my leadership, and I ended up becoming like on the panel in a council in college, which was really amplifying my leadership. And I encourage both my kids to do it because I thought it was very defining for me. Um, and they've taken it where they want to. But with my clients too, I say there's nothing to run from if you can tell a leadership story. It's not, you know, it doesn't have to just be there to be there, like member, you know, whatever fret. That doesn't add much to it. But if you have a leadership role and you've done something impactful, right, why hide it?

Jessica Shklar 26:52

It's okay. We spend so much time, and clients understand this that on their resume for their work experience, they talk about what they did. Their bullet points show impact. And then you get to the bottom of it of their resume where it says extracurriculars, and they're like, member fraternity. Like, but what did you do? And that's just as important as the top half of the resume is having that impact. Show me what you did. And like active member, what does active member mean? Show me what you actually did.

Rachel Beck 27:17

And by the way, this relates to intramural sports because a lot of kids do intramural sports in college, and then they they have it in our brainstorming document that they did this, but then they leave it off of their resume. And I'm like, this is one of the greatest things for B schools to see because it's all about community. Right. You're part of an intram, like there's no high stakes here. It's just you coming together and meeting people who are different from you and having fun. Your commonality is soccer or flag football. Right. And who knows where that can lead. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Harold Simansky 27:48

No, I think that's right. And and listen, I think people also have to be thoughtful in terms of milestones and what has changed them. And what I really mean by that, I've it's ununusual for me to suggest that an Eagle Scout actually puts that on the resume, one of the final bullets, and to really explain why was that impactful and how does it translate into today? Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's one thing if you did something in high school and it never manifests again. It's another thing if it was so impactful that at that point you took you on a road. And even if that means uh I helped my Eagle subproject was I helped build a house, I'm still an active contributor to Habitat Free Manity. Whatever it is, pull that thread through.

Rachel Beck 28:27

Right. Absolutely. Definitely. Definitely. I think um applicants have to open their mind to different pathways. Yes, we know you're working hard.

Harold Simansky 28:37

Yes.

Rachel Beck 28:38

Everyone's working hard. There's lots of different things that you can do that are gonna make you better people as a result. And by that good feel that you feel, your applications will be so much stronger.

Jessica Shklar 28:50

That's true. What do you say to people who who say, um, I come from a culture, I'm thinking European generally, that doesn't do extracurriculars. That's an American thing.

Rachel Beck 28:59

That's where I dig in a little, like, well, how do you spend your weekends? Or what do you do after work? Or, oh, you know, you go to that community center. Oh, you organized a dinner for that celebration. That's Are you the one who tends to organize everything?

Jessica Shklar 29:15

This is your role. Where does that come from? And we just keep pulling and pushing. Yes, yes.

Rachel Beck 29:19

Yes. So I think that's kind of a lame excuse when they say, like, my culture doesn't do that, because everybody does something. There's something that you're involved in.

Harold Simansky 29:28

Um show how you're connected to the culture. By all means, show how you're connected to the culture. I certainly had a client of mine from a let me say, a non-European culture, and obviously going to his house of worship was really important. Okay, that makes sense to me. But what did he do there? And actually, every uh every Sunday it turned out, he would be the one who chaperoned the fourth graders and took them through some studies. And he was sort of, does that count? Up like, oh my God, if you ever met a fourth grader, of course it counts.

Jessica Shklar 29:58

Well, I had a client recently who was from a not very well-known culture and really missed the food and bought his favorite cookbook. Um, and he used it, but he didn't know how to bake. But his mother-in-law did, and they baked together every Sunday. He would translate the recipe and she would teach him to bake. That's perfect. And then he created a cookbook for her from the translated recipes, and it was something the two of them did, not with anyone else. It built really strong ties, and it was a way of connecting him to his culture and to his new family, and it became uh not a huge long essay, but definitely a short essay that was really sweet. It was a really nice essay.

Rachel Beck 30:36

I I actually think food and culture are such an important part of applications. Um, I had a a client recently, I won't say where where he was from, because it would give it away, but he works like a hundred hours plus hours a week in a private equity job. His mother was from a country a country that faced war. Um, but he grew up in a countr in a a state where food was big and and you would you would know that food. And he he wrote about how these like two opposing cultures kind of shaped who he was, but he also had started this dinner party once a month where he would try out different foods um and bringing people together around food. And he ended up hosting a party bringing these two cultures together, which I thought ended up being like a great kind of finale to the whole process. But a great, great essay, which during his interviews where it was with the admissions officer, it was discussed.

Harold Simansky 31:43

And honestly, then it's something that they can project forward. If business schools are thinking to themselves, okay, how are you going to be an engaged citizen? Well, at that point, it's very clear past his prologue to say, I've brought cultures together personally, so when I get to school X, Y, or Z, I'm gonna be do the baking club, which I've actually had someone do, or I'm gonna do the cooking club, because that's a wonderful way to build community.

Jessica Shklar 32:04

So, one question I get asked, and I'm sure you guys do too, is um, I don't have a certificate from this. I have no way to prove to the admissions committee about this. So let's talk about that. What kind of proof do you think admissions is looking for of these activities? Zero. Zero proof. I mean, which doesn't mean you lie. You do sign a statement of integrity on these applications, verifying that you have told the truth. And but a background check isn't going to call a club and say, did they actually organize this meeting? The background check after you're accepted is about verifying employment dates and salary, um, tax status, things like that. But but you're not you don't need a certificate. You need to talk about it in a way that is credible and meaningful and has integrity and impactful, right?

Rachel Beck 32:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're cheating around the edges, that's on you. And you have to live with yourself for cheating around the edges. And what does that say about you versus the business school catching you doing bad behavior?

Harold Simansky 33:04

Listen, I say up front with my clients, it's not worth it. You think it's gonna be worth it, you don't really know what's important in an application. At the end of the day, it's not worth it. They're looking for authenticity, they're looking for the real you. It's like, let's let's stop this conversation. Right. Well, before we stop our conversation, any last thoughts about extracurricular, extraprofessional things that you don't get paid for, as far as how you should think about them and sort of what counts? Or or I think we've said everything counts.

Jessica Shklar 33:34

My summary statement is business schools care about who you are as a person, not just who you are as a professional.

Rachel Beck 33:40

And leave it at that. I agree. And some of the best things are right under your nose. There are things you're already doing. Um, and look at your connection to the communities you're part of. I mean, I use that phrase all the time for a reason because then suddenly it's like, oh, I didn't think this counted. Yes. Um, and it does. Yeah. It counts.

Harold Simansky 34:01

No, absolutely. Listen, if you'd like to talk to Jessica, Rachel, Harold, or one of our other consultants here at NBA Mission, by all means sign up for a free 30-minute consultation. We'd love to talk to you about what counts, what doesn't count, and if there's even such a thing as counting. Thank you very much.

Jeremy Shinewald 34:18

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