From Rejection to Partner: 32 Years at Boston Consulting Group | Ep. 101

What does it really take to make partner at Boston Consulting Group (BCG) and stay with the firm for more than three decades without losing yourself? Debbie Lovich, BCG managing director and senior partner, joins host Harold Simansky and mbaMission Executive Director Jessica Shklar for a candid conversation about her path through consulting.

Debbie became BCG’s fastest-promoted partner, achieving the position in less than six years. She was also the first woman on the firm’s executive committee. She later stepped away from the partner role to find work-balance before returning and making senior partner on her own terms.

This episode covers the unglamorous truth about work-life balance in consulting, why Debbie got rejected by BCG twice before being hired, how the “up or out” culture actually functions, and what she tells every MBA applicant who thinks they want to do consulting.

This episode is must-listen for anyone considering an MBA with consulting as their career goal.

📖 Debbie’s new book, Make Work Work: The 5 Daily Practices of the Employee-Centric Leader, will be released in November 2026. Preorder now: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/831079/make-work-work-by-deborah-lovich/

00:00 Introducing Debbie Lovich, BCG Managing Director and Senior Partner

07:48 The Path to Partner — Speed, Serendipity, and Purpose

16:01 Work, Life, and Finding Balance

24:41 Advice for MBA Applicants

30:49 Retiring from Consulting and Writing a Book

Book your FREE 30-minute MBA admissions consultation with Harold or another one of our experienced MBA admissions consultants by filling out this form.

Learn more about onTrack by mbaMission, our innovative, on-demand MBA application platform, and take our two-minute questionnaire to receive your customized learning path.
 
‼️Use code MBAMPOD for 30% off any onTrack subscription‼️

Contact Us:
info@mbamission.com

Follow Us:
YouTube
LinkedIn
Instagram

Transcript

Jessica Shklar 0:00

I was actually the fastest promote, I think, in PCG's history. If you had to summarize like the three key points that made you get promoted that quickly, what do you think they would be? One is you have a group of people who believe in you.

Debbie Lovich 0:13

Say part of it is doing great work. And I think the other was just serendipity. I went from partner on the executive committee to support staff. My husband's like, don't you have enough stars on the fridge?

Harold Simansky 0:24

I remember that in consulting myself. It's like, okay, what's the next one? Okay, case team leader. Okay, manager.

Jessica Shklar 0:30

Now I see kids who have case interviews and they do 40 or 50 practice cases and they have to have these online cases, and it just seems daunting. You know, I applied to BCG out of undergrad.

Debbie Lovich 0:41

I didn't, I got an interview, I didn't get a job. Persistence and optimism is such a driver of success.

Harold Simansky 1:00

I'm Harold Samansky, and today we're diving into one of the most popular post-MBA career paths, consulting. Every year, a significant portion of MBA graduates pursue roles at consulting firms, attracted by the opportunity to work on complex business problems, collaborate with really talented teams, and gain exposure to a wide range of industries and functions. But for many applicants, consulting can feel a bit mysterious. What do consultants actually do day-to-day? What does the work really look like on a project? And what kind of environment can you expect once you get to a firm like BAINE, BCG, or McKinsey? To help answer those questions, we are fortunate to be joined by someone who truly lives and breathes this world, Debbie Lovich. Debbie is a managing director and senior partner at BCG, where she has spent decades shaping not only client strategies, but the very future of how we work. I'm also joined by colleague Jessica Sklard, Executive Director here at MAIMission, who has helped countless applicants navigate over the rigorous path into these elite firms. In today's conversation, we'll talk about Debbie's own journey and what first pulled her into the orbit of consulting. We're going to pull back the curtain on what a project actually looks like on a Tuesday morning, how BCG's culture has evolved over the last decade, and most importantly for our listeners, what it takes to stand out in the MBA application process if consulting is your goal. So, Debbie, at this point you've been consulting how long? Um, 35 years. Okay. How's it going?

Debbie Lovich 2:25

So far, so good. I think I'm getting my hang of it. It's a good start.

Jessica Shklar 2:29

What really strikes me whenever I talk to you is that you love consulting. Like you're so enthusiastic about your job and about, and a lot of people are like that when they start. But then 35 years later, people often are more sour on their jobs or they've left consulting for burnout. What is it about consulting that you love so much?

Debbie Lovich 2:46

You know, it's interesting. I did consulting before business school, and I went to business school to get out of consulting because I had at that time I had client envy, right? Like, you know, you're tired of being the outsider and you want to be the insider and see it through. So I went to business school and I specifically got a job not in consulting for the summer. And I was like, this is what I was envious of. Like, there are politics, you move up slowly, you're not, you could work on boring things. And I realized in after that summer that I actually want to be a consultant because by the time a firm hires a consulting firm, it's a really big problem. And it has the attention of senior leadership because we're not cheap. And um, and I just love that. I love working on the thorniest issues that have the biggest impact. You know, and it's what I also love is like I'm 35 years into consulting, 32 at BCG. Like, I still feel like I know nothing. Like I feel like every project I have to get myself up to speed. And you go through this crazy process of, oh my God, I have to learn this client, I have to learn this industry, I have to learn this, you know, and then you bootstrap yourself and you're like, I know more than the client who's been in there for decades. And because they have a day job and you could just think about the problem full time. And you have a team, now that I'm senior, you have a team of these brilliant, brilliant, like I look at the associates at BCG and Consults, I probably shouldn't say this, but I think I'd never get a job there now. Like, you know, and they're so smart. And we when you put all these brains together on a problem and on a relationship and on driving impact, that's just the high. And so it's addictive.

Jeremy Shinewald 4:40

If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nba mission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you.

Jessica Shklar 5:12

Well, because we were classmates, we should say that we were classmates at HVS and used to join BCG and then just walk us through kind of what it looked like your trajectory and so having first of all, I was very thoughtful about where I wanted to join.

Debbie Lovich 5:26

So um for these all-in careers that you typically go to after an MBA, especially those first years, um, I was married to an amazing physician scientist who you guys know, not really the business school type, right? And I wanted to make sure that I joined a firm that it wasn't as all in, in sort of like we work hard, we play hard, it consumes your life, all your friends are in the place. I wanted to join a firm that I could have a life outside and that wasn't a liability. If anything, it was an asset.

Harold Simansky 6:00

Right. It or a firm that actually respected that.

Debbie Lovich 6:02

Respected that and was diverse in itself, right? And so that's how I one of the reasons I came to BCG is like I felt like Mark and I picked it together. And I think it's actually really important if you're in a relationship, like that you both make a decision because you don't want the spouse uh resenting it afterwards. But and so then I started BCG, super regular consultant. Consulting is like every two years up or out decision. And um, and I had been married at that point for five years and we wanted to start to have a family. But I looked around me and I'm like, you know, I don't see a lot of moms, right? Like at my tenure for sure, you know, more senior, I saw some, um, but there weren't a lot of women. I mean, we're talking about 1994. Um, and but I'm like, you know, screw it. Yeah, we're gonna have kids. So I get pregnant with Danny, my second year, just as I'm entering that upper out window for project leader promotion, I get the promotion while I'm out on maternity leave. Yeah, yeah, fantastic, which was great. And then I come back and we figure out how to make it work. My husband's doing his PhD program. We get the live-in babysitter because with travel and his work, like we just couldn't afford if the kid's sick, they can't go to daycare, right? So I set up the infrastructure and I'm just chugging along, have my make um manager, which is now called principal. So that's the next level after project leader. Um, and then have my second daughter again at a promotion point. I time it very nicely. And then I just start on the path to partner. I was actually the fastest promote, I think, in BCG's history.

Harold Simansky 7:46

So how long was that?

Debbie Lovich 7:47

It was less than six years. Wow. Okay.

Jessica Shklar 7:51

And can you, if you had to summarize like the three key points that made you get promoted that quickly, what do you think they would be?

Debbie Lovich 7:57

One is you have a group of people who believe in you. Like a lot of people go into consulting saying, I want to try this and I want to try that and I want to try that, and that's great. But I had gone back to consulting with a purposeful decision to not, I'm not going to try it for a couple years, but I want to be in it.

Harold Simansky 8:16

To actually be a consultant.

Debbie Lovich 8:18

I want to be a consultant. I tried industry for the summer. I'm like, I tried, I knew consulting before, so I actually, and again, I picked this firm with my spouse, and you know, this is a place I want to be. And so because of that, I didn't flit around. I found my people, right? I was really interested in doing healthcare work. Um, before business school, I flipped around a lot and I couldn't find an industry. I really felt purpose. Like, okay, I'm helping people manufacture processed meat better. Okay, that didn't do it for me. So I was like, I really want to do healthcare work. And so, like, I'm kind of like I would have been a doctor, I think, if I wasn't so squeamish. I'm vegan because, not because of ethics, but because it's really disgusting. Like, if I get a paper cut, I feel woozy, literally. So um, so I was like, here's a way I could contribute. And so BCG had an amazing healthcare practice. This guy, Dave Matheson, founded the first practice area of the firm, I think of any firm, and founded the healthcare practice.

Harold Simansky 9:18

So I was just like, I want to be This is where I need to be.

Debbie Lovich 9:21

Yeah, I want to be him. So, so anyhow, I think that helped me get promoted quickly because I had my people, I had my team of healthcare partners banging the table for me. I have a crazy story. So it used to be we have two partner meetings a year, and one, because it's the Boston Consulting Group, one partner meeting was always in Boston, right? And the healthcare partners would get together at the partner meeting, the global healthcare partners would get together as a subset. Head of the practice was from Paris, this guy, Philippe Guy, he's amazing. Um, and they all knew me, right? Because I found my home early on. I came in and BCG's like, yeah, you could try a lot of things. I'm like, no, I just want to do healthcare. Um, and I remember Philippe invited me to join them in the partner meeting. Wow. And I was up for partner at that meeting. So here you are, and it's a sea of white men because it's the partner meeting. And I remember I'm standing by, they have this is old school, they have folders where everyone gets their mail back then. So I'm standing by the partner's photo folders, and I'm waiting to go into the conference room when the meeting's about to start, because of course I got that really early because I was invited. I have to be there really early, and I'm waiting, and a German partner comes up to me with like a fold with a stack of paper, says, Honey, I need 10 copies of this.

Harold Simansky 10:50

That is astounding. And it's not like this was 1880.

Debbie Lovich 10:53

No, this was 2000. Wow. December 2000. So I just look at him and I'm like, I don't know how to use the copy machine. And he gave me this look like the help these days. And so then, okay, so that's a low. And then just imagine this like five minutes later, everyone starts coming out and filing into the healthcare partner meeting, and I come in, and literally all the partners are coming in. There might have been like 25 of them. BCG was small back then. Now there's probably a thousand healthcare partners. No, not a thousand, but several hundred. Um, the couple of dozen partners come in, and Philippe takes my hand and he literally does this. He goes, guess who we just voted for? And everyone stands up and claps. Did you see the German guy's face? No, because he wasn't there. He was up, right? I'm telling you this story, and I have goosebumps. That's how you found out. Well, I kind of knew I was being voted on, but it's not official, and you never know it can go wrong. And it was just like, oh my God, my family, my people. So I think that was part of it, having a home. Um, I also want to like say part of it is doing great work. Like, you have to do great work, and it's work smart, not hard. We could talk about that. And I think the other was just serendipity. So I'll tell you, it was 2000. What was happening in the world in 2000? The dot com boom. BCG was losing a lot of people to go make their millions in dot-com startups. And so they came up with a new policy saying, we'll promote one ready.

Jessica Shklar 12:37

Instead of on a time frame.

Debbie Lovich 12:38

Yeah. It used to be like you have to hit this.

Harold Simansky 12:41

You have to be there seven, eight years before they even look at you. Yeah.

Debbie Lovich 12:44

And so I just turned to the partner I worked with when that policy change came out, and I go, and this partner actually ended up being CEO of BCG for a long time, Rich Lesser. And I he was the partner I was working with. He was part of my people. Um, and I was like, Rich, am I ready? And he goes, I think you might be ready. And so we pushed this new policy, promote when ready. Okay. So you were the test case. So I was the test case. Long story short, they actually closed the window that like a year later because promoting me so early just made all the other great people feel shitty.

Harold Simansky 13:18

I'm sure I'm sure it did. I cannot even imagine. Right? Yeah.

Debbie Lovich 13:21

So it's like, okay, that policy was a good idea, but it had second-order impacts we didn't anticipate. So I really snuck in. So I could say, yeah, I'm like fastest promote ever, but I was like a blip.

Jessica Shklar 13:35

Yes, right. So we were on your trajectory. So you made part make partner.

Debbie Lovich 13:38

I made still in the healthcare practice? Still in the healthcare practice. Um uh two years later, I get pregnant with my twins. Um, and it's funny, I was doing the most intense project I ever did. It was a post, we I could say it, it's public. It was public at the time. We were doing the Pfizer Pharmacia integration. And I remember I said to my husband, it's like between like the deal announcement and the close is like three months. I said, You're not gonna see me for three months and then it'll close. And we worked so hard. I joked, like, I don't I'm working so hard, I don't have time to go to the bathroom, but that's okay because I don't have time to eat or drink, right? Like it was that's how hard we were working. And it's funny, my client team who I met with every morning, like these are like the CFO, the head of strategy, like I'm running the commercial integration of this huge company. We meet every morning at eight, it's really intense. Like four out of six of those senior clients had twins.

Harold Simansky 14:36

That's right. Something in the water. Exactly.

Debbie Lovich 14:38

So then I get pregnant with twins. And I'm like, first of all, okay, I do go home on the weekends, but um, like I'm like, I caught twins from you. So I had the twins. Um, and shortly after I had the twins, um, and at and at that time, like 2003, right, was rough years in consulting. And because we won that big integration, it really like we BCG reported results with and without that integration. It was a really material project that helped save the firm. So I got a lot of visibility as being part of that team. And there is um, there is definitely something I learned about managing your brand and managing your reputation, like getting people to know you in a way that's not self-serving or obnoxious or, you know, self-centered. Um, but because of that project, I got like on our leadership's radar screen. And the CEO asked me to serve on this global compensation task force, which was sort of a test case for, you know, Debbie's leadership capability. And then a year later he asked me to join the executive committee.

Harold Simansky 15:52

Okay. Okay. Yeah. How big is the executive committee, even?

Debbie Lovich 15:55

At that point, it was about 10 people who ran the firm, who ran the firm globally.

Jessica Shklar 16:00

And you're the only woman on it?

Debbie Lovich 16:02

I was the only, I was there's a debate as to whether I'm the first. Our CEO will say, Hans Paul Berkner, the CEO at the time, said Debbie, you're the first woman. Sandy Moose, who was the who was like a huge trailblazer, um, she might have been on the executive committee. There's debate there, but she was the first um student at Harvard Business School. Sandy was, and she was BCG partner, she opened our New York office. She was the first female consultant ever. She um, when she went to Harvard Business School, by the way, she was not allowed to apply. So she had to apply for an economics PhD program, and then they gave her a seat in Harvard Business School, and she told me it was during the Vietnam War, maybe, but she told me all the men at HBS were so mean to her, they said, because because you're in that seat, a man is dying. Because if a man had that seat, he could defer his army service.

Harold Simansky 17:03

And again, this was not a hundred years ago, this was whatever it was, 50 years ago.

Debbie Lovich 17:07

Yeah, not a hundred years ago. And so she's such a trailblazer. So she was probably the first woman partner, but I was certainly the only woman on the executive committee. Um, and that is actually the opening scene of the case that they've written about me and my family at business school, because at that point I had four kids under 10. Yeah. Being on the executive committee added, you know, four or five live meetings a year internationally, in addition to the two partner meetings internationally, in addition to the practice area meetings internationally.

Harold Simansky 17:43

So um So what is that, four to six weeks away from out of the country or even away from home? I don't need to.

Debbie Lovich 17:48

Out of the country, but meanwhile, I was traveling four days a week into to New York for my clients. First of all, you feel the burden of being a woman. Right. How could you say no and uh like to being a role model? Right. And a trailblazer, opening the door for others. And there's also ego. Like, oh my God, I get to be on the executive committee. You're like royalty, right? So there was a lot of ego. There was learning, like to run a firm, like to be the most junior person in this room of like really senior, amazing people, how much would I learn? And I ended up not saying no to it.

Harold Simansky 18:21

Okay.

Debbie Lovich 18:23

And was that selfish? Probably. Um did I personally gain a ton from it? Definitely. Did my family gain from it in the long run? Right? Like, like my professional success is financial success. Yes. We're very in the Cheryl Sandberg. I love her book, um, Lean In, and I love her advice. And one of her advice is make your partner an equal partner. Her other advice is take a seat at the table, right? That's what I did.

Jessica Shklar 18:53

Those are sometimes in conflict.

Debbie Lovich 18:54

Yes. Right. And so I ended up resigning as a partner.

Harold Simansky 18:59

Resigning as a partner, okay.

Debbie Lovich 19:00

Yeah. Well, first I ended up trying to do local partner, um, developing local client work for BCG, which worked. Um, it got my travel down, but you I still had executive committee travel and all that kind of stuff. So it wasn't enough. I needed a more dramatic shift. So then I resigned as a partner. I like being the first and the only. So I think I'm the first and only partner at BCG to resign as a partner and then stay at the firm, but I stayed on the administrative staff. Okay. I managed the Boston office.

Harold Simansky 19:29

Okay.

Debbie Lovich 19:30

You know, I launched a program globally, internally, like the way I put it is I still did client work. BCG became my client. So I launched a program to address work-life balance and consulting. There's actually a whole book written about that program. It's amazing. It's still part of how we work today. Um, it's probably, ironically, the most impact I've had on a single organization.

Harold Simansky 19:52

And it was- It was on BCG, you're saying, yeah.

Debbie Lovich 19:55

Yeah, yeah. And that's not because I'm a bad consultant with clients. It was, it was a really big project. Um, so I resigned as a partner. Um, I stayed at the firm for five years doing that. And then at some point, the HBS professor that I was working with wanted to start a consulting firm, and she's like, around this program we did. So I left BCG to start that with her.

Harold Simansky 20:20

Okay, so actually left. At the end of the day, you actually left.

Debbie Lovich 20:22

I actually left, but I didn't fully leave because I was running this program at BCG globally, and I didn't think I was gonna leave. I had no infrastructure in place to run it, and it was such a fabric of BCG. So BCG became my client. So I became a vendor to BCG, an outside consultant to the consultants. Um, and so I did that for a year, and then that didn't work out. We just had different visions for what the company should be. And then I'm like, what do I do now?

Harold Simansky 20:53

Right.

Debbie Lovich 20:53

And I didn't want to go back to being support staff because there is ego.

Harold Simansky 20:59

Of course, yeah.

Debbie Lovich 21:00

Right? You watch people who you hired become senior partners.

Harold Simansky 21:03

Yes.

Debbie Lovich 21:03

Right. And I left before I was a senior partner. And I remember, like, I remember before I resigned as a partner, I'm like, yeah, but I'm just entering the window for senior partner. If I stay another two years, uh I can make that. My husband's like, don't you have enough stars on the fridge? Right, right? You don't need to make senior partners.

Harold Simansky 21:22

And that's also that's how life sometimes just you get carried away. You just carried away. I remember that in consulting myself. It's like, okay, what's the next one? Okay, case team leader, okay, manager. And then at that point you keep on going. And and suddenly at some point you can't imagine leaving.

Debbie Lovich 21:36

That's right, because you just are in pursuit of the next prize. And at some point you have to say, you know what? It's his turn. It's his turn. We got to rebalance. And so resigning as a partner was that rebalance.

Harold Simansky 21:47

Yes.

Debbie Lovich 21:48

It was, I'm on it. Um, and so then I actually ended up coming back to BCG. My best friend at work, Grant Freeland, ran the um People in Organization practice. So that works on the human side of consulting, um, like helping leadership and culture and operating model and org design and talent and reskilling, all that kind of what some people think of soft stuff. I always thought that is for people who are not as smart as I thought I was. Like, and Grant and I always work together, and the client would even say, okay, Debbie comes up with the answer, and Grant figures out how to get people to buy into it. And um, and I was like, Yeah, I have the hard stuff. And then he's like, Debbie, why don't you come back and help me grow our leadership practice? And I'm like, I'm not a people and organization person. And he goes, Debbie, you started this program on work-life balance at BCG with me. You're a people and organization person. I'm like, oh my God, Grant, you're right. You're right. And so I came back, but I didn't come back as a partner. I came, he wanted me to come back as a partner. Mark, my husband, was not convinced I wouldn't leave him and four kids again. So Grant's like, you could come back as a part-time partner. And Mark's like, not in it. So Grant, he's so good. This man is so good. He's like, okay, what if you come back as a senior advisor, which is basically a contract partner. So you're 1099 income. So you're not on salary, you get paid as a contractor. And so we agreed I'd work three days a week as a contractor. Um, and that way I could ease in. So I ended up working four days a week because I was so into it. And by the way, the people stuff, Grant was so right. Not only was it like right up my wheelhouse, like I, yes, I know how to do this, but it was really, really hard. Like people are not linear, they're organic. Driving change in humans is not soft. It's like, it's like diamond hard, right? And so, um, but I was working four days a week, getting paid as a contractor, not getting any benefits, right? And finally I go to my husband, I go, if I just switch over to partner, I promise I won't change a thing about how I work. I'll still work four days a week. I don't work Fridays. Um, and that was in 2015, and now it's 2016. And you made at 26. You made senior partner. I made senior partner a couple years later, finally, and I pride myself on being the fastest to partner and the slowest, and literally the slowest in BCG history to senior partner. And when the announcement went out globally, Debbie's now, congratulations to a senior partner. I probably got a hundred emails. I thought you were a senior partner already.

Harold Simansky 24:38

There we go.

Debbie Lovich 24:38

And I'm like, no, I'm just old.

Jessica Shklar 24:40

So what um what advice for our clients and for potential clients for um applicants to business school who are thinking about consulting? It's I think it's often the default. Um, you know, I go to business school, I become a consultant or an investment banker, right?

Harold Simansky 24:55

Yeah.

Jessica Shklar 24:56

But I think you made a very deliberate choice to do consulting. Yeah. What advice would you give people who think they want to do consulting but don't necessarily know what it means on a day-to-day basis?

Debbie Lovich 25:04

Yeah, figure it out, right? Like, so first of all, I think you do want need to want to do consulting. You can't do go into something as intense as this temporarily, right? And I think the interview process will sniff that out. Um, like you have to learn enough about it, right? Listen to this podcast. Um, you have to learn enough about it to make a conscious choice that this is what I want to do for the foreseeable future, right? Like, you know, just when you learn about it, consulting is an upper out place, which means every two years you're up for promotion. And if you don't get promoted, you get transitioned out, which by the way, you shouldn't feel bad about because the fact that you got in and survived that time is already amazing on your resume. And anyone who doesn't make promotion, BCG supports and consulting firm support in because it's in our interest to make you a great client, right? So you shouldn't be scared of that upper out process, but you should go in. Part of wanting to be a consultant is knowing the reality is you may not make it, but have the mindset, but whatever time I spend there is like dog years in learning, right? It's like one year is seven years, right? Like you just learn so much. And so, and I think the other thing back to the beginning of this discussion is you have to love learning. And I remember when I was at Barnard as an undergrad, and this is in 1988, 89, and the career services office told me about consulting. I had no idea. Everyone went into eye banking back then. Consulting like barely existed. And she told me about it. And I'm like, oh my God, that sounds like majoring and intro to everything. And I like that, right? So you have to be curious, you have to be able to bootstrap yourself up. And that's what consulting firms are looking for too. You have to be willing to dive in to something difficult and new and enjoy the process of, you know, going from loss to getting up to speed to mastery, right?

Harold Simansky 27:07

Yeah. No, listen, when I was at business school, and again, never managed to be a consultant, really didn't know what it was, but it was sold to me as, oh, you get to sort of play around, sort of finishing school for business school, find out all these great things. And the reality of the situation, that did not serve me well, to be perfectly honest with you. I get there, it's like, oh, we'll do a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And at the end of the day, it's like, as you go through this process, what are you bringing to the table? What are you bringing to the table? And if it's just Harold learning something new on everyone else's dime, that doesn't work very well. And my own experience was very different from yours, which which I can always share. But the reality is I also got there just about the same time. I was there at Bain and Company 99 through 2001, the year of the bloodbath all around. I mean, you remember consulting there. And at some point, honestly, a consulting firm that's going in the wrong direction is not a great place to be. Yeah. And it really starts, you walk in there and it's like it starts smelling bad at that point. Yeah.

Jessica Shklar 28:02

Debbie, how much, I don't know if at your level of you are involved with this, but I with you know kids who are college age, as are yours, um, watching the consulting interview process and whether you're out of college trying to get into it or into business school trying to get out trying to get into consulting seems massively harder than when we were in business school. Um, I remember going through and not making it, but going through the McKinsey interviews, getting to the third or fourth round interview, but that was about it. And now I see kids who have case interviews and they do 40 or 50 practice cases and they have to have these online cases, and it just seems daunting. Do you have any insights or thoughts about it? Whether that's is it just because the consulting is so competitive now, or does it really make the selection process easier? You're getting better people.

Debbie Lovich 28:46

I think we get great people. I think we get great people. You know, I think the recruiting process is something you have to get through. I don't think it's perfect. I don't think it's perfect at all. Um, you know, I applied to BCG out of undergrad. I didn't, I got an interview, I didn't get a job. I got rejected. I applied for my summer, even though I knew I wanted to do industry, I applied just as a backup in case I because consulting, you remember consulting and banking, they interview much earlier. And if you want a job, I want a job in a biotech company. They don't even start looking till April. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna interview just to have a backup in case, and and I liked BCG because they did healthcare. So I'm like, this will give me a backup for the summer. And I got rejected. Okay. So then I'm on the executive committee of BCG, and they're like, you know, thinking about is it time to look at our recruiting process again? And they're like, no, our recruiting process is great. I'm like, well, is it great? Because rejected me twice. You rejected me twice, but you put me on the executive committee. So either you're wrong or your recruiting process isn't great, right? I tell recruits all the time I got rejected twice. Like, by the way, persistence and optimism is such a driver of success. Um, like to be rejected twice and still interview again, right? Like you could say, oh, they didn't want me, I won't even try. No.

Jessica Shklar 30:14

Well, it's something that we talk to people about when they reapply to business school. If they don't get in the first time, they're like, Do I have a black mark against me? And I literally will say to them, Imagine you're an admissions officer and you're reading an application and they've got great scores and great grades, and they've done great work, and their recommendations are glowing, and they've got great community involvement, and you're really excited about them, and then you find out that they were interested in you a year ago. Are you gonna think, oh, this person's a loser? Or are you gonna think, oh my gosh, they're still interested. They must really care about us. Obviously, it's the second. There's no shame to being a real and now you're just reinforcing that from an industry perspective. Yeah, from social perspective.

Debbie Lovich 30:48

That's no, it's exactly right, Jessica. It's like, I think persistence really pays off, and you need optimism to be persistent. When I was a new partner, they had a training course for partners with this guy, Ford Harding, who wrote a book about being rainmakers. And they, because BCG has this reputation of being like this academic, you know, ivory tower of the consulting firm. They came up with the experience curve and the gross share matrix, all concepts you should learn if you're gonna interview with us. Um, but it gives us a reputation of being academic. And so they wanted to teach the partners to be much more commercial, like they won't come to us, you have to sell. And they brought in this external consultant who taught us how to be rainmakers. He was fabulous. It really changed my life as a partner, helped me become successful. Um, and one of the things he did is he said, I studied successful rainmakers and looked for common traits. And there's nothing about education, background, ethnicity, age. The only thing he found in common was optimism.

Harold Simansky 31:55

That's so interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting.

Debbie Lovich 31:57

Optimism. And I really am an optimist. I always see the glass half full, right? BCG reject me twice. That's okay. I know I'm great. I'm gonna Yeah, and I'll keep going and eventually they'll get it right. Right. The recruiting process is tough. Yeah, it is really tough. You should practice a ton. You should use your networks. If you know people at places, I hate to say that because like BCG is certainly a meritocracy, but if like networks can help you get a serious look, right? Because we get so many applicants for every position and they all look great. Right.

Jessica Shklar 32:36

People can get lost in the shuffle.

Debbie Lovich 32:37

I just get lost like like I think, and I have two kids in college looking for jobs, right, for the summer, too. Like networking is really important, and I get calls all the time from my friends' kids, and because their parents connect them to me, and I help them. You know, I do a phone call with them, I learn about them, I learn, and I could form an and listen, if they seem like a jerk, I'm not gonna help them. Right, right, right. Right? Right.

Jessica Shklar 33:07

But if they seem like a great kid, which 99.9% are, of course I will help them because it's better for your company. It's just, and that's what I think a lot of kids don't see that it's a two-way street. Right. BCG wants the best people, and so someone who's gonna help you. It's I my very first job, my summer internship at HBS, was working for, I'll date myself, as you know, Coopers and Librand, which doesn't exist. And my job was to assess their alumni pool and see if they should develop a concentrated alumni program in order as a business development tool. And that's what I did, and then I went back to run it. And um and it was the such a great mindset of these people who are leaving, whether they leave voluntarily or not, are still in our network. They're still potential clients, they're still business development. That's pretty great.

Harold Simansky 33:54

Again, it goes the other way as well. As a as a student, as someone who's young, I should go have a conversation with Debbie Lovich, just because nothing may come out of that conversation. But now in my lifetime Rolodex, at this point, maybe I can call Debbie Lovich again.

Jessica Shklar 34:06

And maybe I'll learn something because she's really smart and wise, and we've loved talking to you today. Yeah, yeah.

Debbie Lovich 34:12

No, absolutely. And you know, it's funny, I went and gave a talk about careers and consulting at Barnard College, um, you know, to give students advice on, you know, what we look for and all of that. And afterwards I got a ton of outreach of people like who wanted to chat one-on-one, and I couldn't respond to them all, right? I get it all through LinkedIn, you know, but if there's a like, I don't know, something will catch me in the moment, and I'm like, you know what? Yes, I will talk to you. And I've probably spoken to a dozen of them, you know, and and some are persistent. Like there's one, actually, who I'm speaking to today who I probably ignored last year through LinkedIn, but she LinkedIn me again, and I'm and that's the rejection slower. And the optimism and keep trying. Debbie Lovich rejected me once, but I'm gonna keep trying. Right. And we like to be purists and think, no, I'm gonna go through the process and it's all meritocracy. BCG rejected me twice. Is the process really gonna work? Is it really meritocratic? Otherwise, why would I still be here 32 years later?

Harold Simansky 35:16

Right, right, right, right, right, right. Which also gets to the question now, you've been there 32 years, how much longer what you're thinking? I know you're writing a book.

Debbie Lovich 35:25

So I'm actually retiring at the end of the year.

Harold Simansky 35:27

Congratulations.

Debbie Lovich 35:28

Thank you. Stay long enough at BCG, or I'm sure other great firms, and they just have a great retirement program. So I spend, it's a two-year program that if you're senior enough, old enough, and good standing enough, a lot of people check that box. Um, they have a two-year rampdown where you can spend those two years both exploring what you want to do next for your next act and passing off your practice to the next generation. That makes sense.

Harold Simansky 35:56

That makes sense. You have relationships with clients, obviously relationships with other people.

Debbie Lovich 36:00

Intellectual property. Like I've developed so many things even in the last three years at BCG. I want to make sure I have a home at BCG. And it makes sure that you don't go, you're going at you read all these stories about people going 100 miles an hour in their career and then depression, right? So it works for the firm and it works for me. So that process ends at the end of the year. Um, and that's I'm using some of this downtime over the past year and a half to write a book.

Harold Simansky 36:30

That is terrific. That is fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Debbie Lovich 36:32

Make work work.

Harold Simansky 36:33

Yeah.

Debbie Lovich 36:34

The book is about how to be an awesome leader.

Harold Simansky 36:36

Okay. Okay.

Debbie Lovich 36:37

In easy, easy, doable ways. You're going to read the book and go, duh, I needed to buy this. They tell me that. But that's the beauty of it. That's great.

Harold Simansky 36:44

It's so easy. That is so great. All right. Well, we will hear more about it. That is great then. Well, Debbie, we really appreciate you coming in today. Oh, this was fun. It's always fun to talk. It's narcissistic to talk about yourself. So thank you. No, no, of course. This was a lot of fun. And if you want to talk to me, Jessica, or one of the other consultants at MBA Mission, sign up for a free 30-minute consultation.

Jeremy Shinewald 37:04

Exciting news! You can now access OnTrack by MBA Mission for free. Take our two-minute onboarding questionnaire to personalize your learning path. Choose the free plan, and you'll have unlimited access to our complete modules on MBA application timelines, standardized testing, your professional background, community leadership, school selection, and more. You'll also get access to select lessons from our brainstorming, personal statement, essay, resume, and recommendation modules. It's a great introduction to the OnTrack platform and will help you jumpstart the MBA application process. Get started today at ontrack.mba mission.com.