MBA Networking That Leads to Referrals | Ep 104

How can MBA applicants and business school students network effectively?

In this episode of The mbaMission Podcast, host Harold Simansky and Jessica Shklar, mbaMission Executive Director, speak with Jeff Yolen, CEO and founder of Career Connector, about how to network effectively to advance your career. Jeff explains why cold applications so rarely lead to offers, how referrals can improve your odds of landing a job, and why informational interviews are one of the most valuable tools in the MBA recruiting process.

They discuss how to identify the most valuable contacts, how to write concise outreach messages, what to ask for during a networking conversation, and how MBA students can start building relationships that support both their immediate professional goals and their long-term career growth.

If you are thinking about MBA admissions, MBA recruiting, or your post-MBA career strategy, this episode offers practical advice you can apply right away.

Contact Jeff Yolen: jeff@careerconnector.coach

00:00 Networking and Post-MBA Career Opportunities

05:58 Why Cold Applications Fail and Referrals Matter

09:16 Where to Start If You Do Not Already Have a Network

13:20 The Real Goal of an Informational Interview

21:14 How Career Connector Helps Students Network Strategically

25:23 Jeff’s Best Networking Advice for MBA Applicants and Students

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Transcript

Networking and Post-MBA Career Opportunities

Jeff Yolen 0:00

The goal of the informational interview is to get a referral to somebody else's company. If you have a referral, your chances increase 37.5 times that.

Jessica Shklar 0:13

There are a lot of kids out there who just don't have the resources.

Jeff Yolen 0:15

Try to find somebody who's one or two levels above where they want to be next.

Harold Simansky 0:20

Through informational interviews, it makes you it easier for you to build that rolodex for life.

Jeff Yolen 0:25

Networking in general, don't wait until you need a job.

Harold Simansky 0:41

Today's episode of the MBA Mission Podcast is all about one of the most powerful and sometimes misunderstood advantages of business school: networking. MBA programs often highlight the strength of their alumni communities and professional networks. But many students and applicants still struggle with a practical question. How do you actually turn those networks into meaningful conversations, introduction, and real career opportunities? To explore that question, I'm excited to welcome Jeff Yolan. Most recently, Jeff founded Career Connector, a platform designed to help students and professionals turn networking into a structured process, one that leads to informational interviews, referrals, and ultimately job offers. In today's conversation, we will talk about how MBA students can make the most of their alumni networks, what makes outread messages stand out, how to prepare for informational interviews, and how a thoughtful networking strategy can shape not just your post-MBA job, but your entire career trajectory. So, Jeff, first of all, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Jeff Yolen 1:36

Thank you very much.

Harold Simansky 1:37

Of course, you're a Harvard University grad, an HBS grad, a Harvey Kennedy school grad. In fact, you were classmates of my colleague Jessica. Why don't you tell us your story?

Jeff Yolen 1:46

So, right after college, uh I did a uh fellowship, public service fellowship called the Coro Fellowship. I don't know if you're familiar with that, um, in New York City, where uh 12 of us uh did rotational internships, both collectively and individually, with leaders in uh business unions, um, congressional campaigns, nonprofits. I did a number of those rotations. One of them was for a uh nonprofit in East New York, Brooklyn, which was the poorest, uh, highest crime neighborhood in probably in the country at the time, um, building low-income housing. I ended up um actually after the fellowship working for that nonprofit for uh the next three years, went to the business school and the Kennedy School. After grad school, I spent uh 10 years doing business development and corporate development with startups uh at a dot com called, which you guys may uh may or may not remember called Cosmo.com, which was one hour delivery of movies and other examples.

Jessica Shklar 3:05

Yeah, it's back aways.

Jeff Yolen 3:07

Backaways. Uh I did a a deal with Howard Schultz. He served me coffee in his office. It was crazy.

Jessica Shklar 3:13

Fantastic, yes, yes, yes.

Jeff Yolen 3:16

And um was the coffee good? Yeah, no, yeah, it was very it was very good. It was very uh then worked for Richard Branson and Virgin in London for uh several years. Our first two kids were born in London. Um came back and did a did a startup uh which we sold to AOL um right before the 2008 market crash. Okay, great to do that. So good timing. Yeah. And then um I did a little bit of venture capital uh and then um went into executive search, which I did for about 15 years. Is that right? Yeah, up until uh really late last year.

Jeremy Shinewald 4:01

If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nba mission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you.

Jeff Yolen 4:34

I think curiosity is important for every professional, kind of at any point in their career. Um I I also think that the ability to recruit uh talent, to recruit other people, attract talent, somebody else offline, um, having people who want to work with you at the next job, and you know, developing those relationships. And again, we're you kind of we're getting to uh relationships, which which leads into networking. Those those relationships are are critical, um, and you know, both in in terms of uh people that want to work with you later as well as people that want to refer you and people that want to recommend you.

Jessica Shklar 5:23

I had a boss many years ago who used to call it the shoe test. And what she meant by that was when a group of people of leaders are in a room and evaluating candidates or current employees and trying to assess them and someone mentions your name, no one should be looking down at their shoes and hoping they don't have to say anything. Like everyone should be like, yes, I love this person, I really want to work with them. But she would say if it will if you can't pass the shoe test, that means someone there you have not built relationships with.

Harold Simansky 5:48

Right, right, right. Yeah, that's really problematic. And again, not just professionally, personally as well. So tell us a little bit about what you're doing now. I believe it's called Career Connector, is that it?

Why Cold Applications Fail and Referrals Matter

Jeff Yolen 5:58

As I mentioned, I've been doing executive uh recruiting, executive search for about 15 years, but um you know, I have now three kids in college, uh, one who's graduating in a couple of months. And what I saw in her um summer job search process, and as well as uh a few of her friends was um these were you know very talented, successful kids academically and um and outside of class. And you know, of course I'm biased with my daughter about my daughter, but I'm saying this is true of other kids as well. But they treated their job search or their summer uh job search like they treated their classwork. Um and you know, these are straight A students, but they so their approach was work hard, work really hard at the job search, um create the best resumes possible, optimize the LinkedIn profiles, optimize the um the cover letters, and you do a great job, you send the applications in, and you get an A, which means you're gonna get in, you get some interviews, you get an offer. That doesn't happen that way. No, so these you know, these they they did all those things, and then they fell into what I call the black hole of job applications, which is you know, many times they didn't even hear back. They rarely, if ever, got interviews. So that was the bad news. But then I saw that with my daughter, once I started to get involved, I um reached out to my network, made a few introductions, I encouraged her to reach out to her alumni network. She did some informational interviews, and uh lo and behold, she got some, she got some job offers and got great summer uh opportunities. As you know, I started to look at the macro and I looked at some of the statistics, which were kind of mind-boggling.

Harold Simansky 8:14

Yeah, they're brutal for these kids now.

Jeff Yolen 8:16

Yeah, they're brutal. I mean, and I you know, I think everybody, everybody knows they're bad, but uh I'm but when I mention these numbers that I'm about to say, I think people are are shocked. When you apply cold, a cold application, so you know you just send your application in online, um the chances of of you getting a job offer are 0.2 percent. Right? So one out of 500 times you're gonna get a job offer.

Jessica Shklar 8:48

Oh my goodness.

Jeff Yolen 8:49

If you have a referral, um your chances increase 37.5 times that. Which which still is still hard, which still hard, which is still tough, but it's uh it's a heck of a lot better. It's you know, something like it's I think seven point something per percent.

Jessica Shklar 9:07

But what do you say to kids who don't have a father with a network?

Jeff Yolen 9:12

Go to career connector.coach.

Jessica Shklar 9:15

No,

Where to Start If You Do Not Already Have a Network

Jessica Shklar 9:16

but but um but seriously, like and yes, we will talk about what your job does, but you know, you there are a lot of kids out there who just don't have the resources or the family background, first generation or something. So you mentioned alumni network. Is that usually a good place to start?

Jeff Yolen 9:30

Absolutely. Um the yeah, you you know, the alumni network um is a great place. Other mutual connections that you have, um maybe if you're a if you were a student athlete, reach out to other student athletes, right? Uh you are a musician in college, if you were wrote for a college newspaper, just look for those commonalities and and people like talking uh to other people who've who have those commonalities.

Jessica Shklar 10:01

Yeah, we're talking about business school applicants, and I'm sure the numbers are similar, um, if maybe a little better because recruiters are coming to the business school. But when you first reach out to an alum of your high school or of your band or your football team, how do you approach the call?

Jeff Yolen 10:18

I would say first uh come up with a list of um companies that are inter that you know that are interesting to you, right? Uh could be 20 to 50 companies that are in the area that you're interested in pursuing, and then prioritize those companies by three criteria. Um one is your level of interest in that company, um, you know, your your excitement about that company, number one. Uh, number two, um, do they have job postings? And that it's not only job postings for um your job specifically, now that's ideal, but even if they don't, do they have a lot of job postings? Is this a company that's hiring and growing, or is this a company that's flat or or declining? And then um, and then finally, you know, what how many connections, potential connections do you have at that company, and you know, what kind of connection? So the um, you know, the the the best kind of connection would be um obviously somebody who's gone to your college or high school, or you know, there is some meaningful connection there. But also um I would say I tell them to try to find somebody who's one or two levels above where they want to be next. Right? You're you don't necessarily want to go for the CEO of Procter and Gamble, um, because that's probably not gonna get you anywhere. You want somebody who's who's young, uh, who who will spend a little time with you uh but who's doing well. I mean, some ideally it's somebody who's maybe been promoted um recently. So they have some credibility within the company. So they have some credibility, exactly. So that would be a way and to kind of sort and prioritize. Here are the companies, and then with each company, you look for the content, you know, multiple contacts that you could approach. Um then send um very um kind of targeted brief emails um all about succinctness and uh it's a hundred words or less in an email or LinkedIn, get to the point, subject line is the most important thing, in my opinion. Um fellow HBS alum uh or HBS student seeking advice on product management.

Jessica Shklar 12:58

Oh, very nice. Yeah.

Jeff Yolen 12:59

And in the email, you should ask for uh you advice, insights, and it and an informational interview. 15 to 20 minutes. Do not ask for a job, do not mention a job. Right.

Jessica Shklar 13:13

And you say 15 to 20 minutes, just ask for a brief phone call.

unknown 13:16

Yes.

Jessica Shklar 13:16

Try to minimize the impact on them and show you're being respectful of their time.

Jeff Yolen 13:19

It's

The Real Goal of an Informational Interview

Jeff Yolen 13:20

about building a rapport. That's the the the goal of the informational interview is to get a referral to somebody else at the company. Okay. That is the goal.

Jessica Shklar 13:32

It's not really a secret goal to get the job done.

Jeff Yolen 13:34

It's not a secret to get you're you're not there yet. And if you and and and the more you jump the gun too quickly, the the less successful you're gonna be.

Jessica Shklar 13:47

So that's really what I think most people would misunderstand about an informational interview. They probably think that it's code for give me a job.

Jeff Yolen 13:53

That's right. They think it and now, of course, ultimately you want a job, but that that's particularly that first informational, um, you're the person you're talking to is probably not even the hiring manager in that hiring process. It might be somebody that is in a different office, a different department. So you what you want is you want one them to like you and to um be and to want to recommend you to somebody ideally who is the hiring manager, could be your hiring manager or recruiter.

Jessica Shklar 14:32

Right. So I have a question. I've always wondered about this, and I coach physical school advocates on interviews all the time, and I wonder, I'm curious about this as well. When you go into an interview, you have looked at this person extensively on LinkedIn. You also know that they have looked at you extensively on LinkedIn. But I feel like you're not supposed to let them know that. Like you're not supposed to say something like, as I saw on your LinkedIn profile. So it's this dance of we both know that we've looked at this, but we're both pretending we haven't. Am I wrong on this? Is that just an old-fashioned view, and now everyone knows that they're doing that and they can talk about it?

Jeff Yolen 15:04

Um I yeah, I I I I think it's pretty uh you know, an open secret that everybody's everybody's looking at at everybody else's profile. Uh, you know, I don't think you need to be embarrassed about that. But I you you know, you're you're in in my kind of my methodology and what I recommend to um to my clients is the one thing that I would look at in a in a LinkedIn profile, and that I I might ask if I were you know a candidate or kind of somebody who's exploring um that company is is their transitions, right? What's the arc of their career and what what what are their transitions? So, you know, what you know, why did you go from curious, why did you go from consulting to product management?

Harold Simansky 15:54

Right. Is there an ask in an informational interview? Do you actually explicitly say, is there somebody else at the company I should be speaking with? I mean, how does that actually work if you want this person to really again, purpose here is to get a job, but if you want this person who you didn't ask for a job, to to sort of send your resume to where exactly and how do you get them to do that?

Jessica Shklar 16:16

Yeah, what's the ask and how does it make how do you make it a good ask?

Jeff Yolen 16:19

There's a debate on this. Uh, you know, the uh of course I'm right, uh, but my my answer is gonna be right one, but but uh I won't say it's one that everybody agrees on. I think there are kind of two uh two camps on this. Um I think my camp is probably um maybe has gained more momentum, which is don't ask for a referral in that meeting. Um but what you do ask for is you ask an open-ended question that could gives them an opening to make a referral. Uh it's specifically the question is what what would you recommend uh for me in terms of next steps with the company? And that opens the door. They you know, they they could answer anything. And one of those things could be, well, um, I would suggest that you talk to this group, or I would suggest you talk to Jane in in product. Um that is relatively rare that they're gonna make a referral um in the call. I'd say 10 to 15 percent of the time they would make a referral. And if you do if you ask for a referral, and this is why I think I and and and many people don't like you to ask for a referral, is remember how you asked for the meeting, what what you asked for to get the meeting was an informational intervention. Right, right, right, right. Right. You asked for information and advice and explicitly not asking for a job. Right. Now you've broken, if you ask for a job referral, you've broken that implicit promise.

Harold Simansky 18:13

That's a good point. Yeah.

Jeff Yolen 18:14

But then when do you uh ask for a referral? So if they don't give you a referral, which is again probably 85% of the time, um, what what you do is what I recommend is they wait a week and then in their follow-up, they ask for a referral by email.

Jessica Shklar 18:35

Is that a different from a thank you note?

Jeff Yolen 18:38

So there there are there's an immediate thank you within 24 hours where it's very very quick. Thank you. I really, you know, I learned um A and B from our conversation. Also, thank you for um suggesting this conference and this reading. I'll, you know, I'm on um I've ordered the books. Yeah, I've ordered the books, I've I've signed up for the event. That's within 24 hours. But then a week later, you follow up, and it's another thank you, but you're also saying, I, you know, I've I've given this more thought. I'm more excited about your company than I was before. Um I would love to speak to somebody uh uh at uh somebody in in the product group. Um is there anybody that you would recommend that I speak to? Sure, sure.

Jessica Shklar 19:36

So is there a difference? Obviously, we don't know what the world is going to look like in three to five years when the current applicants are graduating with whatever, but is there a difference between recruiting at the post-college level to recruiting at the post-MBA level?

Jeff Yolen 19:50

Yeah, I think there's there's more recruiting going on on business school campuses where they're coming to you than there is um on college campuses. So that that that would certainly be one different thing.

Harold Simansky 20:05

Right. And listen, the way that what I'm hearing also is through informational interviews, it makes you it easier for you to build that Rolodex for life. Meaning if you have an informational interview, then you can go back to that person. If you ask a person directly, can I have a job? Sort of harder to go back to because they know that you're just getting back in touch with them to ask for another job.

Jeff Yolen 20:24

That's right. Yeah, that's right. And I I and this is this is why you know I encourage uh students and and and graduates and anybody to do informational interviews constantly. Yeah. Um, you know, do an informational interview, do do one a week all the time. Uh don't wait until uh you know, just just like networking in general, don't wait until you need a job or you're doing a job search, right? If if you did uh an informational interview a week um in college, that's you you've got you know two what's 200 information.

Jessica Shklar 21:07

Yeah.

Jeff Yolen 21:08

Okay, yeah, you've got 150 over you know how many industries.

Jessica Shklar 21:13

We

How Career Connector Helps Students Network Strategically

Jessica Shklar 21:14

actually jumped the gun on all of this going through without getting a chance to really hear more about Career Connector and what you do.

Jeff Yolen 21:19

I I would bucket into kind of two areas. One is uh is the coaching piece of it and and coaching them to essentially convert a potential contact into an informational interview and convert that into a referral uh and convert that into um you know a real interview. Um you know once they're in the real formal interview stage, I you know, I kind of step back. I'm not sort of all things to all people. A lot of career coaches will do everything from Resume, LinkedIn, cover letters, you know, interview prep, et cetera, you know, career discovery, exploring what do you think? Career discovery. What's your what color is your parachute, all that stuff. I'm really focused on the networking piece of it. Um so one is coaching them, so writing that email, identifying the people, writing that email, identifying together the email, writing the emails, the you know, managing the the conversation, the what you know, what questions you should be asking, in what order, follow-up, um, etc. So so so one is the coaching piece, and then two, um, which I think for some clients is is even more valuable, is um leveraging my network and making introductions to uh contacts in my direct network, you know, people I've known, um, you know, professionals I've known, uh, former business school uh classmates and so forth. Uh maybe, maybe 10, let's say 10,000 uh people in my direct network, as well as a couple hundred thousand people in my alumni networks.

Harold Simansky 23:14

Right. Excuse me for one second. Did you just say you have 10,000 people in your direct network? Probably. Yeah. I mean I've been on LinkedIn for a little bit.

Jessica Shklar 23:21

What's your Christmas card list looking like?

Harold Simansky 23:23

Yeah.

Jeff Yolen 23:23

Well, I didn't say they're best friends.

Harold Simansky 23:27

That's just astounding to me. Is that a reflection of a process you in very systematically undertook many years ago?

Jeff Yolen 23:35

I think it's a combination of um look, I was an early, I was very early adopter of LinkedIn. And having I mean being kind of an Uber networker. Um I did business development for 10 years and then executive recruiting for 15 years, those are relationship business jobs.

Jessica Shklar 23:57

So many functions, especially for entry-level jobs, are disappearing due to AI. And as you talk, I hear ways that AI can help, like giving some ideas for an for an email spell check, obviously, which is an early form of AI.

Jeff Yolen 24:18

Resumes.

Jessica Shklar 24:18

But I don't really see a way that networking can ever be replaced. Can AI can ever replace that?

Harold Simansky 24:25

That's right. This incredibly human process. Absolutely.

Jeff Yolen 24:28

Human relationships are the last thing. If if if it ever gets replaced, it will be the last thing that gets replaced. Um and you know, though those are also the kinds of um skills and areas, uh, you know, functional areas in a company where I think you want to be is, you know, the using skills that that can't be replaced by AI, such as relationship, communication skills, and so forth.

Jessica Shklar 25:06

Do you recommend sending a resume with that first outreach for an informational interview?

Jeff Yolen 25:10

No.

Jessica Shklar 25:11

No.

Harold Simansky 25:12

Because that looks too much like a job. Yeah, that's yeah. Yeah. And then like we s almost started with, they're gonna figure out, they're gonna look you up on LinkedIn, they're gonna really see everything they need to say. Right, right.

Jeff’s Best Networking Advice for MBA Applicants and Students

Jessica Shklar 25:23

So what's the one piece of advice you would give to our listeners now as they start as they look two to three years out into a job search? Is it that once-a-week informational interview?

Jeff Yolen 25:33

It's the the yeah, once-a-week informational interviews. I think AI is both from a defensive perspective and an offensive perspective, I think there's an opportunity for um young professionals to go small to start small. Um large companies have had the advantage of capital, access to capital, access to talent, you know, human human capital, human resources, infrastructure. Um, the those many of those things are being undermined by AI, right? You just, you know, you you don't need as much capital to build things and to build products. Uh, you don't need as many people. And now with AI as a tool, uh, you think a a founder or a very small company can write marketing copy, review legal documents, code, vibe code.

Harold Simansky 26:40

Yeah, that's what Sam Altman says. We're gonna hit a point where four people run a $1 billion company.

Jeff Yolen 26:46

Well, exactly that's exactly right. And and Cuban was on the same theme. So as it applies to you know, business school students or aspiring business school students, you know, I I think one thing I would say is um maybe you know, on the side while you're at school, you know, start something, you know, start a business, build a product, or for the summer, or do it, you know, you're summered between first and second year, and uh really think about the disruptive opportunity, which on the on the one hand is you know reducing the number of you know investment banking analysts and consultants. So your job opportunities are reduced, are being reduced at the bigger companies, but you have more opportunities to do things uh to start small.

Harold Simansky 27:40

I have to say, one thing that I regret to some degree, not that I'm a person with a lot of regrets, is this notion here, I always should have been learning people's first names. And I use that as a proxy of I really should have known every first name of every one of my MIT classmates, of every one of the professors, of everyone that went to Brandeis, which is again great school. Jessica's mom went to Brandeis. But in any case, to really know people, because it's a relationship world, right? At the end of the day, and I would really have loved to, and I miss it now, and only over the last few years have I actually developed the ability to say, let me just get to know you a little bit with no agenda, and then at some point the world changes.

Jessica Shklar 28:18

Well, I think what's interesting when you think about networks, you talked about being an early adopter to LinkedIn. We are all the same age, and we're not the generation that grew up with social media. We all had to adopt social media as young adults. And when I see my kids, they have to consciously choose to reject people from their life as opposed to include them, because it's natural that they're all gonna all their classmates from grade school are now all part of their networks. Whereas we had to consciously say, you come into my network. Um and so maybe all those of us who are not quite as early adopters don't have as big networks, but now kids coming along are going to have massive networks of people they've known their entire lives. And I think that's a different set of options for them for how they choose to use it with guidance of someone like you.

Harold Simansky 29:03

Yeah, and listening to what we're talking about in the work that you do, it's really almost building up network on top of network and making again accessibility networks that I simply wouldn't have access to. But as soon as I start talking to you, or again, that person I graduated MIT from who lives in Ghana, as soon as we start building up networks on top of networks, then suddenly the dots are simply easier now.

Jessica Shklar 29:27

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, you said you've got 10,000, but then you're that network gives you access to 200,000. And that's just going to be exponential as the world gets smaller and smaller through through social media. And it's accessible.

Harold Simansky 29:39

I think at the end of the day, these are very accessible.

Jeff Yolen 29:41

You know, I would I would also balance that with saying that quantity is not everything. Right. Right. Um, better to have uh five really good uh relationships with alumni from your business school that would advocate for you than have a hundred really l thin relationships that you've you've never even had a conversation, you've just had emails. So um and I and my 10,000, you know, not all of those are 10,000 people are people that I have deep relationships with.

Jessica Shklar 30:20

But it actually reminds me of something we used to talk about, what we'd still talk to our clients about when picking schools is that just because a school has a lot of alumni doesn't mean they feel committed to the school. That's right. And you know, you have a school like Wharton where there was this stretch of 10 years or something, they called it the lost generation, where they just it wasn't a great school. This is years ago. It's a great school now. But people didn't and and when you reach out to alumni from that era, no one ever wants to talk to you. Whereas a school like Tuck averages, yeah, like the U.S.

Harold Simansky 30:48

I was thinking Tuck myself. Yeah, I think that's a good thing. Well, Dartmouth generally undergrad too.

Jessica Shklar 30:53

But I think the number, I read this once, this number is something like if you send a like the donation rate of from alumni to Tuck is something like 70 percent a year, and the next highest school is something like 15 percent.

Jeff Yolen 31:09

Some MBAs assume that having that alumni affiliation um is an entitlement, but um really it it gives you permission to reach out to somebody, but it doesn't give an it's not an obligation for them to get back to you. You you have to do the work of asking for what you want, that's the right thing to want, asking for information and advice. Um you can't just rely on the fact that uh they're um fellow alum and they're just they're just gonna automatically get back to you.

Jessica Shklar 31:46

Aaron Powell Well, it really brings me to a well, I think one of the hesitations a lot of people have about doing this kind of outreach is why should they answer? What's in it for the product manager, for the person who's one or two levels up, the non-hiring manager at that level? It's just a what is it what's drives them to say yes to that call?

Jeff Yolen 32:05

Aaron Powell Look, there I think there are different groups of people and uh different types of of people, and um not all of them are going to uh be responsive, and they never will. Probably my favorite book in the job search space is called Um The Two-Hour Job Search by Steve Dalton. Have you are you familiar with that book?

Jessica Shklar 32:30

He's uh I've been at MBA mission for twenty almost 20 years. I have not looked for a job.

Jeff Yolen 32:35

He's um I think he's in the um in the career center at Duke at Fu Fuqua School. He talks about um curmudgeons, right? As okay, the there's some percentage of of people who are they're not gonna be helpful. And um you want to find you actually want to find out as quickly as possible. Like they may respond because they feel some sense of obligation, but they're actually not gonna be helpful. So you want to find out really quickly um if they're gonna be helpful, if they're gonna advocate, if they're gonna refer to you. But there certainly is a group, a you know, pretty, pretty large group, who they believe in karma. You know, people have helped them in the past, so they want to be helpful. Um people like uh many people just like they like talking about what they do, they like talking about themselves. Um, again, what in what I what I said earlier, this is you know, you're gonna have more luck with somebody who's maybe three to five years older than you than somebody who's in the C-suite at a selfish level, an indirectly selfish level. You know, people want to have other people in the company working with that that they like. So they I mean it's a it has been an imperative for um for employees to find talent. Um, you know, a lot of companies have referral programs. So it's a you know, they they often get paid money to uh when when they w bring somebody into the company.

Harold Simansky 34:21

Yeah, to do some of this. Well, listen, I know some people who are really happy to talk to you, and that's us at here at MBA Mission. By all means, sign up for a free 30-minute consultation. You can talk to me, Jessica, or one of our other consultants at work here, and by all means get in touch with Jeff. You'll see in the notes his email as well as the best way to reach him.

Jeremy Shinewald 34:40

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