Beyond the Essay: How Top Consultants Guide Candidates to Strong MBA Applications | Ep 111

How do MBA admissions consultants help their clients beyond editing their essays?

In this episode of The mbaMission Podcast, host Harold Simansky sits down with two highly experienced admissions consultants, mbaMission Managing Director Rachel Beck and Gatehouse Admissions Founder Liza Weale, for a candid, inside look at what MBA consulting entails.

The conversation covers the brainstorming and experience inventory process that begins every client engagement and how consultants build personal relationships with their clients over months of collaboration. Rachel and Liza also shed light on the qualities that separate successful applicants from candidates whose results are less positive. They explain why the process often feels “messy” in the early stages and why reading your essay out loud is one of the most powerful strategies in the revision process. In addition, the discussion touches on the show-versus-tell principle, why applicants should spend more time on their resume, and how to identify “alignment” across an application when reviewing a final draft.

Whether you are just starting to think about business school or are already fully immersed in the application process, this episode offers a rare look at how experienced admissions consultants work and what you can learn from the process, even if you never hire one.

00:00 Pulling Back the Curtain on MBA Consulting

03:18 The Kicker and the Art of Layering: Storytelling in Essays

06:13 Brainstorming and the Experience Inventory Process

09:40 What Makes a Client Succeed and How Relationships Factor In

14:12 The Messy Middle: Ambiguity, Authenticity, and Trust in the Process

16:08 The Importance of Answering the Question and Reading Out Loud

19:19 Editing Without Attachment

20:41 The Underrated MBA Application Resume

31:14 The Human Side of MBA Admissions

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Transcript

Pulling Back the Curtain on MBA Consulting

Harold Simansky 0:00

If something was really impactful at the age of five, whatever that may have been, just tell me about it. If you're still thinking about it, obviously that must be important in some way.

Rachel Beck 0:07

I want to build that personal relationship, so I think that's really important. The more I can know you though, the more helpful I can be.

Liza Weale 0:14

You're writing for the admissions committee who are people. Business school's not evaluating their technical skills, their financial skills. They're evaluating who they are as a person, who they are as a leader.

Rachel Beck 0:25

Unfortunately, a lot of applicants don't realize the power that their recommenders have in this process.

Harold Simansky 0:59

Liza Wheel and Rachel Beck. So today we thought it would be fun and hopefully useful to pull back the curtain a bit. What does a typical day actually look like for an admissions coach? How do consultants stay organized when they have a stack of essays, emails, and calls all competing for our attention? When do we lean on our colleagues for second opinions? And after doing this work for years, what have we gotten better at? And what are we still looking to improve on? Hi everyone. So I've been doing this for about 10 years. What am I talking about? Being an missions consultant. Um, Liza, what about you?

Liza Weale 1:32

Gosh, uh full-time. Well, I started this actually on the side in right as soon as I graduated from MIT Sloan, so 2002. And then I started doing it full-time uh with the MDA mission in 2012, so well over a decade now.

Harold Simansky 1:47

Yeah.

Rachel Beck 1:47

15 years. I've actually been helping people apply to college and grad school since I graduated from college. I actually graduated from grad school and became a journalist because once you become a journalist, everybody assumes that you can write anything. So I would get my cousin's boyfriend's sister needs help with her college essays. So that's where I really began. But I've been doing full-time MBA admissions consulting since 2011, which is going to be 15 years this summer.

Harold Simansky 2:15

Well, no, that's really something. So it's interesting. You were a journalist, you talked a lot about writing essays. What else do you do and how important it is actually to help with the essays?

Rachel Beck 2:24

When I think about my journalism career, I helped people understand complicated things in the business world. It was all about storytelling. Um, for most of my career, I covered business news, and sometimes those subjects are really hard for average readers to understand. And when I came to MBA Mission, I kind of kept this mindset that it's all about the storytelling. So I'm helping my clients tell their stories to another general news audience, which is the admissions committee. So I use that same approach when I'm working with my clients. Like in journalism, you want somebody to read the first line and all the way down to what we call the kicker of the story. We want somebody to keep reading about you. And um, with the essays, obviously, we don't want to lose the reader. We want them to read all the way through the essay to the kicker, to the end. And I think that's really important.

Harold Simansky 3:17

Yeah, let

The Kicker and the Art of Layering: Storytelling in Essays

Harold Simansky 3:18

me just ask you, Liza, in the sense of we talk about the kicker. What's a kicker and how do you even get there?

Liza Weale 3:24

Gosh. You know, I that's a great question. I don't think I've even heard the expression a kicker. Um, so that's good.

Rachel Beck 3:30

I mean, sorry, I'm throwing in journalism ease.

Liza Weale 3:32

No, I'm gonna use it. I'm gonna use it. But you know, I think a lot of it is people, um, when we're working with them, they they come with a very preset story. This is my story, this is my greatest accomplishment, and I did this, and I was able to do that. And there's no, there's no like struggle, there's no challenge. So I think when when you say the word kicker, I feel like, you know, it goes back to grade school writing or what we learned about good essays of where you have the climax and then the denouement and like that, like there's gotta be challenge because those are the moments where we really grow, where we really show what we're capable of, how we can respond to adversity.

Jeremy Shinewald 4:10

If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nba mission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you.

Liza Weale 4:43

So I think a lot of the work is helping people see beyond the surface level of their stories, their polished button-up version, and helping them recognize those challenges are the things that make you more human and therefore more likable.

Rachel Beck 4:57

I think a lot of people see themselves as pre-packaged. Yes. And they don't realize that really the key to strong essays is what I call layering, where you're layering different stories together that show the same strong trait, and that helps really bring you alive, like in the eyes of the admissions committee. So I think about that a lot. Like, what's the theme to this person? Like when I'm reading a brainstorming document, which we have our clients put together, I'm always thinking about, well, this piece and this piece and this piece all tell something really interesting about this person. And it's not pre-packaged. And I think in this like age of AI, where people feel like, oh, well, I can just upload my resume, it's gonna tell me exactly what to write. AI doesn't ever think about it like that. And so something that I've heard from my clients as AI has become more and more part of our world, not our world, but the world that my our clients are part of, is well, I don't think anybody would have thought of that. How did you come up with that idea? And I so I think understanding that we're really looking at them beyond what's so obvious and helping them tell their stories in compelling ways. Yeah.

Brainstorming and the Experience Inventory Process

Harold Simansky 6:13

No, that certainly makes sense. And you use the term brainstorming. Sometimes we use the term introspection. Um, that's generally the first step in our process. And what's involved with that?

Rachel Beck 6:24

So the brainstorming process is really stepping back and highlighting, we have our clients put in a document, and I recommend this for anybody who's applying to an MBA program, and writing down parts of their story, where they grew up, their family dynamic, how they chose where they went to college, what they're involved in outside of work, their career, highlights in their career, accomplishments, setbacks, their global experience, all these kinds of things. And when you don't put it down on paper, you can't see it all. It's just dancing in your head. Years ago, I had a client who did not want to do our brainstorming document. And he actually called Jeremy and said, She's making me do this brainstorming document. And Jeremy said, trust the process. And the process really works. And just as I was explaining before about kind of layering stories, you can't layer those stories if you don't see all the stories that they are. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's really, really important to do that pre-work before you can't sit down and write an essay. No, it's impossible to do. It will never sound good. Yeah. So doing this pre-work actually saves time in the end.

Liza Weale 7:38

Yeah, I often refer to it. I mean, I warn clients, we call it at gatehouse and experience inventory, but the same idea. And I just tell people, it's a fishing expedition. We don't know what we're gonna find because sometimes they'll say, Well, wait, I'm only applying to this school. So can I just like really focus on what I'm going to write for those essays? No, no, stop to your point. Like, we don't know what you're gonna write about yet. And so I warn them, I'm like, this is going to be an exercise. It's gonna take time. You have to go in with your open and open mind. And it is a fishing expedition because I just don't know what's out there. So I'm gonna ask a lot of questions, but that's when we can break, you know, get people out of thinking this is the essay I'm going to write. And it becomes much more organic. And then we, I feel like that's always like, I think what you were saying about spotting these different connections, I always think that's really fun because sometimes I'm sure it's it's happened when clients are like, huh, I never, I never really thought about that. Yeah, that that is true. And because it's it takes sometimes an outsider to see how these things relate to one another.

Harold Simansky 8:40

Yeah, and I think that's actually the biggest value added for our process many times. And that's the most unique piece of our process, which is you're doing something you generally never do. No, none of us ever pause and say, okay, how has my life come together? Right. What are the things that are important to me? What have been the real milestones? That's what we also tell people really low bar in terms of what you include, in the sense if something was really impactful at the age of five, whatever that may have been, just tell me about it. If you're still thinking about it, obviously that must be important in some way.

Rachel Beck 9:10

I've had clients that have come back to me saying, No, I've I've reviewed my essays and I I just don't really understand why we didn't highlight this. And I say, Well, this is the first time I'm hearing about it. Right, right.

Liza Weale 9:20

Oh gosh, yeah.

Rachel Beck 9:21

So it's hard to highlight something that you actually know nothing about. So I'll actually get a brainstorming document from a client and think it's too thin and send it back.

Harold Simansky 9:30

Yeah.

Rachel Beck 9:31

Saying, I I don't think you put the time in here. Like, go back and and add some depth to your stories. I think it will pay off. And it does pay off.

Harold Simansky 9:39

No,

What Makes a Client Succeed and How Relationships Factor In

Harold Simansky 9:40

that makes sense. So with that in mind, what does a good client look like? And I'm gonna define a client very broadly here, in terms of mean just the ease in which they work, the ease in which they work with you, shore the result, what the end product looks like. What do you think when you speak to someone that first time?

Liza Weale 9:59

I mean, I will tell people the minute they reach out for us for a free consultation and thinking about is, you know, is Gatehouse a the right partner? I always say, well, here's what generally the the clients who succeed with us, I mean, they're all really good traits. Uh there are people who are willing and ready to work hard. We know the process is it's like a second job, it's a ton of work, you know, slow and steady wins a race, not going to wait till the last minute. By the way, I'm the world's biggest procrastinator. So it's very easy for me to look for this in others. I'm not as good as it, but can certainly help people, you know, stay ahead of the curve. Um willing to work hard, um, ready to just be vulnerable. We, we, you know, we work with a lot of clients that have have to be on their best behavior, buttoned up all their time. And to say kind of like, no, I want to hear the real you. This is, I'm not, I'm not on the admissions committee. I'm not making the final decision. The more I can know you, though, the more, more helpful I can be. So no fronting with me, no polish with me. Um, and then the third thing I always say is just open to feedback. It's a demanding job. We know it's a demanding experience. And and, you know, I know we all hold our clients to like a high bar. We hold our own work to a high bar. And so therefore, we expect a lot of our clients. So that's the other thing is, you know, you have to be ready for coaching and willingness to at least explore. Because again, if you come in with some preconceived idea of how your essays are going to go, you might hear something. This is not the best strategy. Are you open to that? That's that's what I always say. I'm curious.

Rachel Beck 11:29

I'll build on that in a few different ways. During like an initial kickoff call that I have with my clients, I always say, I'm gonna tell you a lot about my life. I'm gonna tell you about my kids, I'm gonna tell you about my dogs, I'm gonna tell you about my husband, where what I've done over the weekend, I'm gonna share a lot because I expect you to share a lot too.

Harold Simansky 11:44

So that's really interesting. Yeah.

Rachel Beck 11:46

And and I do. And and like when there are clients who went through the college application process with me, with my kids, and and they still check in. How are they doing? How's this? How's that? And so I want to build that personal relationship. So I think that's really important. I also really stress all the time that this is not a sprint. It's a marathon. And you would never, and I actually use the couch to 5K um example, which by the way, a lot of my clients don't really know what that is because that's kind of like a 2000s thing. And I'm dating myself, but the couch to 5K is, you know, you're gonna run a half mile, you know, and then you're gonna build up to a mile, and then you're gonna build up to a mile and a half. And so I always say, you're not getting on the treadmill and running at 8.0 to the finish line. We're gonna, we're gonna take our baby steps, but you have to give yourself ample time to get ready for your race. And so if you show up right at the end and you haven't done all this pre-training, you're not gonna get the results that you want. And so I think that's really, really important to keep in mind that the time and stepping back and kind of looking at, like, is that the way I wanted to say that, or I wanted to frame that is so important in this process. So I really, really think the best clients give themselves the room to step back and say, you know what, I didn't like the way we phrased that, or I thought of another idea for this. And the ones that come in, the the people who are three weeks out, like, all right, I'm ready to go. Oh boy, that's it makes our job hard.

Harold Simansky 13:24

I mean, I think I think that's really the bottom line. I tell my clients frequently, if it's not messy, it's not ready. And what I really mean by that, it's like I get to hear a lot about you, and I don't want to use the term intimate in some sort of weird way, but it's an intimate process. You should be telling me things that you never expected you'd be telling me. I think that's really the bottom line. Because again, people think about, oh, I have to talk about a struggle I've had, or I have to talk about something that I overcame. Well, for many, many people, they're very lucky. There's nothing so obvious. Right. So at the end of the day, but at the same point, that's part of life, right? Yeah, correct. Right, right. That's part of life. So we have to dig, we have to think, they have to think, we have to let things marinate in order to really get to a point when, and okay, we've reached a point where you're authentic, you're genuine, this truly is unique. It may not feel unique at the beginning, but it truly is unique.

The Messy Middle: Ambiguity, Authenticity, and Trust in the Process

Liza Weale 14:12

Yeah, there is definitely like in the early stages, I feel such an ambiguity. It's almost like everybody, even I like we have to take a leap of faith. We know we've been doing this for a long time, so we know we're going to get to somewhere good. But I often say, like, you know, it's gonna feel murky in these first few weeks, and you're gonna be like, am I even moving things forward? And sometimes we're not. We're gonna rip it up, we're gonna start again, and that's all okay. It's a little bit like trust, you know, you know, as you said, trust the process, trust the process. We will get there. But you know, those it can be anywhere from two, four, five, six drafts of like, where are we going? But you know, just relax. And I, and one thing you said, Rachel, is when um when people come back and be like, I have a new idea, sometimes they're nervous about being like, um, I had a different idea. Where, you know, it's like, no, this is great because if you're having this idea, it means you're reflecting more, you're digging deeper, and it's gonna be more you. So that's always kind of a fun moment when they do that.

Harold Simansky 15:12

No, that's right. I will also tell my clients, listen, we have the right to go down the wrong road. At the end of the day, if we're not going down some wrong roads, we're probably not pushing, definitely.

Liza Weale 15:22

I am taking notes already from this conversation. I love some of the things I'm saying.

Rachel Beck 15:25

Something I was just thinking about as you were talking, like when we are our our, I guess, slower season is in the spring, right? Uh, the deadlines, most people don't apply in these later rounds. And I always feel when I get to May and June, I have to like reprogram my brain that, oh, I'm back in it again. And I have to almost relearn all the things I already know. And it comes, you know, it comes quickly once you do that first brainstorming, you're back in it. But you almost have to like, it's like getting back on the bike again. Okay, I'm a little shaky at first. All right, I'm in. Yeah, I'm in. And so I it's okay as an consultant that I can feel that way. It's just kind of relearning things that are second nature.

Harold Simansky 16:07

No,

The Importance of Answering the Question and Reading Out Loud

Harold Simansky 16:08

no, no, absolutely. So then we really started talking about essays. So, at what point do we start thinking about essays? What does it look like? What does a good essay look like? And how do both pieces of the introspection and the essay writing, how do they actually dovetail?

Rachel Beck 16:21

I think a good essay, number one, answers the question that is being asked. Um, because all too often um we have clients who say, Well, I read my cousin's essay for this school, and I was like, that's great, but that isn't the essay question this year, or that's your cousin's experience, and that's not your experience. So I think number one, and and a very easy thing to do with clients is remind them, please put the essay question on the top of every document that you're doing so you're reminded to answer the question that is being asked. So I think that's something out of the gate is a great technique just to keep in mind.

Liza Weale 17:05

It's good for me too. Like I will read an essay and be like, wait, wait, wait, what is the prompt? No, we're not doing it. Um, so it it it just it's helpful to me always, even though I mean we know these essay prompts and are, you know, we dream about them, we know them um word for word, but just to see them every single time to make sure are we actually answering the question, is it really this person's story is uh becomes a great tool for us too.

Harold Simansky 17:29

Listen, I also tell folks by the time we get to writing the essays, you really should know what's gonna be in that essay. If we did our job right, and both of our jobs, if we've been talking about things, if we've been talking about different ideas, if we're trying to build this really big arc or narrative, then honestly, when we start getting to the essays, you should be, okay, Harold, here's what I really think is gonna happen there, which then makes the essay writing just so much easier.

Rachel Beck 17:53

Also, don't be scared of outlining.

Harold Simansky 17:55

That's yeah, that's right.

Rachel Beck 17:56

Don't don't be scared of doing an outline. I tell my clients all the time, your outline can be any way you feel comfortable outlining. Sometimes I get what ends up being an essay in an outline form, but that's okay. They're just really deliberately thinking what is going in each paragraph. But um, it's okay and very smart to outline because it forces you to think, how is this flowing? Yeah, right? What is the flow? I am also a very, very, very big read out loud person. I read out loud all the time. I have my clients, I say, read it out loud. You're gonna hear things. It might not sound right to you when you hear it. So do that. Even from the earliest stages, I read out loud all the time.

Liza Weale 18:37

And do you do that for early drafts too? Basically, one step of the process before someone says, like, sends an essay to you each time.

Rachel Beck 18:44

I'll be reading it out loud as I'm editing it. Yeah. Like if I edit something and I'm like, how does this sound? And listen, I probably have a heavier hand than most because my editing background, but I mean, I I also give a lot of comments, yeah, probably too many at points. But uh I do read it, read things out loud very early on because it helps me hear it. And then what I was talking about earlier, the aha of it, like, oh, these stories link up nicely together. I want the client to feel that aha also.

Harold Simansky 19:18

Like,

Editing Without Attachment

Harold Simansky 19:19

no, absolutely. Listen, what we say about essays, or at least what I say about essays, is you can't fall in love with the essay. There's an old saying here, kill your darlings. And what that really means is you may have spent a lot of time on one piece of the essay. You may love it. If it doesn't answer the question, if it's not moving the narrative forward, then at the end of the day it has to go. And honestly, you need someone else to tell you it has to go. You really need somebody else who is a heavy editor because what makes great writing? Great editing. Yeah, exactly.

Rachel Beck 19:46

I say it like with a smiley emoji, though, like, I'm so sorry, but I'm not sure this works here.

Harold Simansky 19:51

Yeah, yeah.

Liza Weale 19:52

Happy face. I mean, that goes back to like it is an extraordinarily vulnerable process. Um, not only even applying to these great schools, putting yourself out there, but the writing process. But then, you know, it's great to start to see clients evolve and more owning their stories, owning their experience, and sometimes also getting to be a better writer. I find, you know, I'm I'm sure we could dish about those uh expressions or or words that we, you know, might I have a pet pee against uh like was able to. I just am like, no, share what you I was able to get that done. No, instead, let's see you in action. Share what you actually did. Just write the actions. Cut was able to, retell it. And and you know, these these ways to draw it out from them, for them, then they start being like, oh, I got it. So that's always a nice evolution,

The Underrated MBA Application Resume

Liza Weale 20:41

too.

Rachel Beck 20:41

I think we also have to break them of the habit that this is an essay in the traditional sense of what an essay is to them. Like this, you can use contractions, get rid of in order to. That's one of my pet peeves. But like, this is not you're not, you're you're writing for the admissions committee who are people. So write like you are writing for people who would want to read about you. And that's where the show versus tell also really plays in very, very much. Like that's something that we all do all the time. Like, how would you tell this story with examples, right? Versus, you know, I'm a great leader. Show how that leadership came together.

Harold Simansky 21:25

No, no, no, that's right. And showing versing telling, honestly, that is probably my biggest piece of feedback for folks. Yeah. Because people aren't used to, again, that level of intimacy when they're talking to somebody else. At that point, then, okay, I'm gonna tell you because many people just don't have patience to listen beyond that. But that's the nice thing about admissions committee members. A good admissions committee member is really curious about people, really wants to know what actually happened, not what you're telling me happened.

Liza Weale 21:51

Exactly.

Harold Simansky 21:51

And always keeping that in mind.

Liza Weale 21:53

Yeah, I always say, like, you know, we want the reader to be able to see your world. We want you, you want to bring them on your journey. We want them to imagine themselves in your shoes as you experience this. And I think, you know, that's a way to free them up to you know, would you see, would you say, would you hear, how'd you feel? And then they start getting it and they're like, oh, you know, to your point, it is a different, it's not writing a college thesis.

Harold Simansky 22:17

It it is not writing your cousin's essay. And that's always one of our pet peeves as a firm. It's oh, my cousin is at whatever. Exactly right. It's like my cousin is at this school, and this is how he how he or she wrote it. And but you're not your cousin, or sometimes they'll say, Oh, someone from last year's class, yeah, um, who I used to work with, here's what they said. I'm like, they did it better than you did, because they did it authentically. Right. Yeah.

Rachel Beck 22:43

So I bring that same mindset to the resume too. I have my clients read their bullet points on their resume out loud because I think it forces them to hear when something is very responsibility-based versus accomplishment based. When you're kind of hearing it, you're like, oh no, that sounds terrible. Or or jargon. Yeah, sounds terrible. Like when you actually say it, I think that helps a lot too. So I think those techniques can really elevate your essays, your resume, your application prompts, whatever it might be.

Harold Simansky 23:18

No, no, that's right. I think resumes are really under-indexed in this process. Because and part of it is everyone has a resume, right? Yeah, right. Right? You have a resume from that previous job. So, Liza, how is the resume from the previous job different from the resume you want to show as part of the admission process?

Liza Weale 23:34

Well, let me start in just saying, like, I love resumes. You you said it's uh um under-index and totally agree, but I love it because the transformation, it's always night and day when they start with us with that professional resume, responsibilities, um, where they really are describing the job itself, not what they've achieved in it. Um, you know, they they also there's a lot of jargon. Select transactions. Select transactions, a lot of words, CIM, LOI, whatever these, and you know, um, DCF, all the buzzwords that they're um that come from their job because they were applying for a job that was evaluating their skills, that whether or not they could do those things. Business school is not evaluating their technical skills, their financial skills, they're evaluating who they are as a person, who they are as a leader. So really showing initiative. Um, you know, I think a I spent a lot of time thinking about that first strong verb at every single bullet. How, you know, if I scan down, is each one different? What is each one showing? If every single one is I modeled something out. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so you can model. Can you do anything else? So, you know, it's really that's it's really um making sure we see you as a person, not as I can do this job well.

Harold Simansky 24:47

That's right. Yeah, and also understand who the admissions committee members are. They look at resumes all day. They know what an analyst at a big consulting firm does. That doesn't surprise them. They know what an investment maker, junior investment maker does. That doesn't surprise them. So in that case, tell them something different. At that point, don't tell them you know how to use Excel. They know you know how to use Excel, right? Right, there's no surprise there. Instead, tell you have a section about your different entrepreneurial activities. I had this client of mine in the military who's fantastic, but he also had these side hustles going. He used to sell sneakers online. He made it like $30,000. I'm like, man, that goes right in the middle of your resume. That's really awesome stuff.

Rachel Beck 25:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of um applicants give us their resume, or clients give us their resume, and they're like, I think it's in good shape. Yes. I think it's in great shape. And I was like, wow, it doesn't have anything about you on the resume. I want to hear more about you. Yeah. Um, some of that might be what you did in college, some of it might be what you do for fun in your life, and that's okay too. I was um an admissions interviewer for eight years for Columbia. And the first thing I looked at when I looked at a resume was the last line of interest because I wanted to think, was there something in common I might have with this person? And I loved when people had quirky things or or, you know, um fast fiction, or one one guy one time said he's a door photographer. And I was like, oh, well, what's that? Or pizza tours or whatever it might be, things that I can completely relate to or wanted to learn more about. And so I'm constantly pushing my clients to what's different about you, what's interesting about you, what would they want to get to know more about you? What could you contribute to the class?

Harold Simansky 26:35

Exactly.

Rachel Beck 26:35

And this all can exist on your resume.

Harold Simansky 26:37

Exactly. Being a foodie who loves travel, it's stop right there. What you're telling me is you like to eat and you like to go on vacation. You know, that's fantastic. Also, don't tell me you've been to 34 countries. I once had a client who went to 108 countries, and I said to him, I had no idea 108 countries existed, let alone that one could actually do all of that. By the way, you want to guess how many countries there are in the world?

Liza Weale 26:59

Tell us. Yeah, I have no idea.

Harold Simansky 27:01

Yeah, 220.

Liza Weale 27:02

Wow. Wow. All right.

Harold Simansky 27:03

Yeah, so he's so he's half there. So in that case, you're like 34 countries.

Liza Weale 27:07

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it also can be revealing because a lot of people struggle with that. They're they're all of a sudden like, uh oh, I don't have anything. And hopefully you're having that conversation early enough in the process so you can, you know, someone has time to start building out those other things. But often it's just really helping them brainstorm. Okay, but let's dig in. Did you really do nothing in college? Are you really doing nothing now? Oh no, well, I, you know, I started this really, it's just a social tennis thing. We do it every other Wednesday night on the West Side Highway. Like, oh, what ding ding ding. That's something. Let's bring it up, you know. So it's um, I think it also just can help us, or the more that we can help them tease out those, those things. I think also, again, they're like, oh, I never thought this would matter, but it does because you're a person.

Rachel Beck 27:54

I think in my 15 years of doing this full time, I've learned to have more confidence in letting my clients tell stories that are not like so traditional. Like, okay, you don't have great activities, but you've been in this run club and you helped four people over the years train for their the New York City marathon. That's a big accomplishment. I really like that. So kind of looking for those other places for good stories for someone who feels like a little dry. Um, and then they're not dry at all. And you realize they're actually really interesting. So I think kind of for me, having the courage to dig a little bit more has come up, and then opening the door for my clients to realize, wow, yes, I do have things.

Harold Simansky 28:40

That's right. That's right. And and that brings us back to introspection and how is a client successful through that introspection process? It's because they've been open, they've shared with us things that they never thought was relevant in any way, shape, or form to business school.

Liza Weale 28:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Harold Simansky 28:54

And that rolls then into recommendations. I always say resumes and recommendations, they really have to go together. So, how do you two think about recommendations?

Rachel Beck 29:03

I think recommendations are such an important part of this process. And unfortunately, a lot of applicants don't realize the power that their recommenders have in this process. So, one of the big education points that I have with clients from day one is these people or this person is going to get as much, if not more, words to talk about you. So we really need to pick the right people to write your recommendations, and you need to give them, I call it a cheat sheet, but we a memo that lays out the process very clearly and gives them some ideas that they can draw from. Because I know I have a hard time remembering things about yesterday. So your manager might not remember this really important point that happened in your relationship. All you have to do is remind your manager of that, and it can come out beautifully in a recommendation. So as an applicant, they have to put in the work for their recommendation. And I think that a lot of applicants don't realize that has to take place. And by the way, this is where people who come late to the game in the application process end up really having problems because their recommenders are then rushed and they don't have the time to give them that good stuff that they can use. And you give it to them saying, Here's some examples of things you can use or not. Yeah, you or not. I'm not writing this for you. Please don't. Please don't write it for them. Yeah, it's the third rate. This is a this is a tip sheet for you, and that's okay.

Liza Weale 30:42

Yeah. I feel like you know, as be as a coach, I think recommenders are really hard because at this point, you know, we have a dialogue. I have a dialogue with my client. I I know um I can push them, I know when to push them. Um, I, you know, can be like, all right, you're not turning things around quickly enough. We have a lot ahead of us. But, you know, with the recommender, that's uh that's harder. They're not beholden to us to turn things around quickly. And so it is like, it it always is there's a little trepidation on my part because it is just another

The Human Side of MBA Admissions

Liza Weale 31:14

element, but it's so critical. And and you know, you know, what you were talking about, Rachel, is really the best offense here, or the best offense here is that you choose people who are advocates and are willing to write to write and willing to spend the time. That's gonna play in our favor. You know, that in the long run, it's gonna be a good recommendation.

Harold Simansky 31:35

That's right. And you also really use people who aren't gonna just say, oh, top bucket consultant. Right. Because as we all know, there's a lot of top bucket consultants. There there simply are. And in fact, frequently that will that's exactly what happens with some of my clients. They'll give me the metrics, promoted early, got extra bonus. I'm like, yes, but what's unique? You are one of 30, 40, 50 across the firm, and they're also applying the same school that you are. So you really need a champion. You really need to have somebody who says, sure, he's a top bucking consultant, but here's even more. Yes. And here's what I see from this person rather from another person.

Rachel Beck 32:12

I also think that a lot of applicants don't understand that there's usually two recommendation questions. Um, the first one is really highlighting your strengths compared to your peers. So that's all the positive about you. The second question is really what determines who's a good recommender, which is tell us a piece of constructive feedback that you've given the applicant and how has the applicant responded. And I feel that a lot of recommenders struggle with that question because they don't know what to say. So that's where when you're having your conversation with your potential recommender and you say, I'd love you to write the recommendation, and they say, sure, great, great, great. You then provide them, maybe not in that conversation, but in a follow-up note, here's a great example of the second question, which they often then use because they struggle, the recommender struggles to figure that answer out. I also think that question is what you should use to determine who should write your recommendation. Like that, when you're thinking who should my recommendation who should my recommenders be, that's right, what you're really focused on. Right.

Harold Simansky 33:19

And the arc really is some constructive feedback, but success at the end.

Liza Weale 33:24

Yes.

Harold Simansky 33:24

Yeah.

Liza Weale 33:25

And how you applied it.

Harold Simansky 33:26

Yes.

Liza Weale 33:26

And I think sometimes recommenders are nervous about that. They want, they don't want to show the applicant in any bad light. So some of our job is coaching our clients to coach the recommenders on, no, no, no, it's okay. And and Rachel, what you said about like, I remember this time. You know, if the person is choosing someone who's been an advocate, who's been a mentor, who's been a manager, surely that person has learned from the manager, the mentor, and has those moments where that person really affected their lives. So really, you know, arming and reminding the recommender of those times, but also it's okay to talk about this as long as you, as Harold, you just made the point, you show, and then what? What did you take that that feedback and do with it, which is a really good story? It's great, actually. Yeah.

Harold Simansky 34:13

Yeah, because we had an admissions committee member on this podcast say the only recommendations they believe are the bad ones. And I think her point was a little broader than that, which is the authentic ones. This idea here of constructive feedback. Okay, tell me what you know about this person. Tell me about how you've grown, how they've grown, and then really how they are as a professional in terms of their ability to transcend themselves, their ability to move forward. And that means, of course, suddenly a much different looking career, which is what business schools look like. So we already talked about this can be really quite a long, quite a time-consuming process. I tell my clients 50 to 70 hours. So at some point, though, we get the flywheel going and things are really going well, and we start landing the plane. But what are we actually done? Because with a creative piece like an essay, it need never be done. So, Rachel, what how do you think about when the process is done?

Rachel Beck 35:04

Well, when I first start working with clients, I say, we're done when you decide we're done. Like I basically put it on them. Like, but you I said, you will know when you're done. You will know when you're done. And please, it can't be the day the application is due because I can't live through that stress. Every year I have those people and I can't live through it. But I said, you'll see your package start coming together after three, four, five drafts. Like you'll start feeling it coming together. And I always say, then set things aside and come back to it. And that coming back to might happen three or four times. Like you might do school number one and then move on to school number two, and then go back to school number one to read it again and again and again. But you should be able to print it out and sit down and read it through and feel like I've done everything I can do. Like, I don't feel there's anything else in me that I need to add to this. Like, I feel great. And then it's time. Yeah, it is time to let go. At the very end, if you're making changes, you're just like wordsmithing nonsense and you're not real, you're actually not making it better, you're making it worse. Yeah. Or making it different.

Harold Simansky 36:16

I always tell my clients, different is not bad.

Rachel Beck 36:18

Yeah. So I say, I want you to hit submit and feel like you've put everything on the table. I know I have.

Harold Simansky 36:25

That's right.

Rachel Beck 36:25

And then feel good about that that final moment and be proud of yourself. Like that's a celebration that you've you've done everything you can.

Liza Weale 36:33

Yeah. I, you know, sometimes clients will say, Well, what grade would you give us? And I said, That's not the exercise. Where it is, this is not an essay you are submitting for an English class for a grade or anything, uh, anything like that. It is, does it represent you? So when I give you a grade, that is what I'm trying, that's what I'm assessing. Not if it's well written. It, you know, it this isn't, that's not just not what's being measured.

Harold Simansky 36:59

It's not creative writing here.

Liza Weale 37:00

Yeah. So I, you know, and it's so like I give an A if I feel like it sounds like you. And one of my biggest compliments on an essay, and I I say, it's really nice. Because like that to me is like, it captures who you are as a human. It captures, you know, your whatever it might be, that the whole application, it captures who you are. And for some reason, the word that comes to mind again and again is it's nice. It sings. That's great. It's but you know, we're don't, you know, how does this compare to other essays that you've read? That one, it uh no, I we're not doing that. I'm looking at it. Do I feel like it's you? And do you feel like it's you? More important than what I feel.

Harold Simansky 37:37

That's right. Absolutely.

Liza Weale 37:38

You feel like it's you, and then they, you know, then they see, yes, okay, I got it. Yeah, it's ready.

Rachel Beck 37:43

When they ask for a grade, that means the whole class is being graded on the same rubric, which is wrong. Right. It's not being graded the same way. And we have to remember there's all these different metrics that go into the admissions committee's decision. Yeah. It's not just the essay. Right? It's your whole package. Yeah. So I think that's important.

Harold Simansky 38:02

And again, it's a human process. At the end of the day, the admissions committee are people. Yes. Do they feel like they know you? Do they like you? Are they somebody who they want in their class? That's what it really comes down to. And every piece really has to come together to deliver that message.

Liza Weale 38:17

Do you do either of you have some sort of checklist that goes through your mind as you're doing like a final review? Is you're thinking, like, yeah, this is finally, this is set.

Harold Simansky 38:26

Yeah. I think about alignment, to be honest with you. You cannot have the different pieces of the application say different things about this person. It really helps uh it's a mosaic. Everything has to come together and then really create one picture.

Rachel Beck 38:38

I agree. I agree. One the end piece to be authentic to the client. Yeah. I when I read it, I want to say, like, yeah, this is telling a great story about so-and-so. Yeah. Yeah.

Harold Simansky 38:50

No, no, that no, that's absolutely right. And listen, if you want to start the process of doing applications, working with us, by all means, sign up for a free 30-minute consultation with me, with Rachel, with Liza. We'd love to chat with you.

Jeremy Shinewald 39:04

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