What Duke Fuqua Looks for in MBA Applicants When Building “Team Fuqua” | Ep 114

What does Duke Fuqua’s admissions team want candidates to understand before they start working on their application to the school’s MBA program?

In this episode of The mbaMission Podcast, mbaMission Senior Consultant Harold Simansky and Founder Jeremy Shinewald speak with Shari Hubert, associate dean of admissions at Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business, about the MBA program’s collaborative philosophy, distinctive essay prompts, and behind-the-scenes admissions process. Shari explains that rather than focusing on the simple notion of “fit,” Fuqua looks for applicants who will thrive in the school’s community because of their intellectual curiosity, resilience, self-awareness, and willingness to work with others.

The conversation digs into Fuqua’s well-known “25 Random Facts” essay and why Shari believes that it is especially resistant to the use of AI. She explains that the goal of the distinctive prompt is to make applicants more knowable, which makes the prompt hard to game: AI can help with clarity, but it cannot identify someone’s fundamental personal experiences or their unique voice. She reminds applicants that no one can tell their story better than they can and that Fuqua’s admissions team can recognize when essays and interview responses seem overly polished or inauthentic. 

For candidates trying to understand how a top MBA program weighs its applicants’ academics, character, judgment, and community-minded leadership, this episode offers a clear look at what Fuqua values and how you can present yourself to its admissions committee with more confidence and authenticity.

00:00 What Fuqua Means by Thriving in Its Community

06:15 How Fuqua Admissions Functions as a Mini Business

07:37 What Applicants Misunderstand About MBA Admissions

11:52 The Qualities Fuqua Looks for in Its Candidates

12:06 What Kind of Applicants Thrive in the Fuqua Community

14:54 Why Fuqua’s “25 Random Facts” Essay Is So Valuable

19:40 Highlighting “How” Rather Than “What” in Your Fuqua Essays 

23:09 How to Build Your Understanding of the Fuqua MBA Program

25:45 The Fuqua Admissions Committee’s Evaluation Process

28:37 Proving Your Readiness for the Fuqua Curriculum

30:55 The Concept of “Durable Skills”

33:42 Why (and How) You Should Prepare Your Fuqua Recommenders

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Transcript

What Fuqua Means by Thriving in Its Community

Shari Hubert 0:00

We are looking for people we hope will thrive in our community, but there's a lot of different places where you can thrive.

Harold Simansky 0:06

With regard to the admissions process, right from the beginning, how should candidates be thinking about it behind the scenes, what's going on?

Shari Hubert 0:13

What's important to them? Why are they thinking about investing in this degree? I've been a big fan of the 25 random facts essay for a very, very long time. It's just fun. We're really trying to understand, you know, underneath the surface, what is this telling us about the kind of person this person will be? There is not one path to get here, and there's not one path to success once you're here.

Harold Simansky 0:47

Today

How Fuqua Frames the MBA Admissions Process

Harold Simansky 0:48

we're spotlighting Duke Fuqua, a program known for its collaborative culture and distinctive essay prompts. I'm joined by Sherry Hubert, Associate Dean of Admissions at Fuqua, to break down how the school weighs academic against character against purpose. We'll dig into the 25 Random Facts Essay, the Contribution Essay, the Alternate Plan Short Answer, Fuqua's AI Policy, and the student-led interview process. Subscribe on YouTube or follow on Apple and Spotify so you don't miss anything. Sherry, really nice to meet you today. Why don't you just take us through your background, which I know is fascinating?

Shari Hubert 1:20

Oh, great, thank you. So, first of all, thanks for inviting me.

Harold Simansky 1:23

Of course.

Shari Hubert 1:24

Where do I start? So I'm originally from the Midwest and um went to, you know, grew up with a single parent mother, um, but believed in education. So education's always been very important to me. Um, knew that I wanted to kind of spread my wings, and so I decided to apply to all schools outside of Indiana. Ended up in New Hampshire at Dartmouth and had a wonderful experience, majored in French. And then after that, I started working in the pharmaceutical industry. It was my first job, I actually was here in Boston and at Merck and Company doing pharmaceutical sales and managed care marketing, and then um uh left and went to Philadelphia in-house and then came back for business school, went to Harvard Business School. And after that, um actually followed the herd, as many people do, and entered into the world of consulting and BCG, but quickly realized that, you know, um I was interested in other things, and it was other things were interested in me. So ended up uh actually in New York after business school in their um New York office and had an opportunity to transition from BCG over into the Partnership for New York City, uh, which was um an organization that was founded by David Rockefeller. So it's all about how does the private sector weigh in on public sector issues. So I ran that leadership development program. Um and through relationships, uh, one of my fellows was an executive at NBC. And so he he kind of I kind of didn't have a favor, introduced him, you know, helped him do a kind of a search for some talent he was looking for. And he said, Hey, you know, you should look at NBC, was back in the days when G owned MBC. And so I said, you know, I always was a believer uh early in my career to keep your options open. So I said, okay, you know, I'll look to see. And he introduced me to some folks and they created a position, um, really working, it was a hybrid position, working with both NBC as well as GE, helping to manage their United Way campaign and um helping the GE Foundation integrate more with NBC.

Harold Simansky 3:26

That's interesting.

Shari Hubert 3:27

Did the United campaign, it went well, and this is uh always a lesson that I talk about is you know, you never know who's looking, you never, you know, sponsors, having sponsors are so important. And come to find out, someone recommended me for an uh a job at GE's corporate headquarters in um university relations. And so, uh, and to this day I have no idea who it was. That's cool. But that's really what that position it was the manager of campus relations. And so that position really was the position that put me on the path to what I'm doing now. And so I managed uh was the manager of campus relations at GE for a few years and then got recruited by Citigroup and was senior vice president of their analysts and associate recruiting for the investment bank and the corporate bank. From there on in 2009, I took a role at um the Peace Corps. And ran all of uh the Peace Corps' uh domestic offices.

Jeremy Shinewald 4:32

If you want to be one of our success stories, sign up for a free consultation with a member of our full-time MBA admissions team. Since we've worked with tens of thousands of applicants over the past two decades, we can give you our honest opinion on your chances and help you put together your very best application. That is not a sales call, but rather your first session with one of us for free. We can give you a profile evaluation, answer specific questions about the process, review your resume, talk about your school choices, and so much more. Sign up at nba mission.com slash consult. We look forward to working with you.

Shari Hubert 5:05

And after uh, you know, a few years with the Peace Corps, I said, you know, I've tangentially worked with um universities. It'd be really fun at some point in my career to actually work for a university. And so this opportunity at Georgetown um kind of presented itself. And I never thought that would necessarily be on the admission side. I always for some reason thought it might be in on the career center side or like I loved global programs, you know, because of my study abroad experience. And so when I thought about it, though, the position was manage, um, heading up associate dean of admissions for George Towns McDonald's School of Business. And when I thought about it, I was like, you know, I'd always help talent, you know, gain uh opportunities after business school or after undergrad. MBA was very pivotal in my career and trajectory. How fun would it be to be on the front end helping them gain entry into this you know degree that was so pivotal and provides so much opportunity and optionality? And so for me, this role is allowing my my career to come full circle. And that's what I think about it. And so now I've been doing this for about 14 years or so.

Harold Simansky 6:12

So you went from Georgetown over to Duke.

Shari Hubert 6:14

Yeah, and then uh after five years at Georgetown, I got recruited and joined Fuqua and just love it and uh just feel like you know this is really the best job that I've ever had in terms of you know this space uh in admissions. It really is. It allows me to really use all of the skills and uh things and experiences that I've had throughout my career. I've never probably used my business school degree more than in this role, honestly. That's interesting. Yeah, it's just like running a mini business. I mean, you're in the you're on the revenue generating side of a of the institution. You you know, our team is about 34 and fully staffed, and so you're running this larger organization of people. And so it's a lot about kind of the you know organizational behavior, motivating others, you know, getting things done through others by motivating them, motivating them, keeping your identifying great talent, developing them. Um, you have to think about the you know changing dynamics of the of the business, of the market. You have to think about the competitive positioning, uh, you have to think about how your brand you know exists in that competitive landscape. You are you know budgets, you know, are you know growing, shrinking, and you have to think about the changes and how to continue to bring in talent despite the uncertainty around you. So there's so many parallels to kind of running a PL, honestly.

What Applicants Misunderstand About MBA Admissions

Jeremy Shinewald 7:37

There's it's something that struck me as in when you were sharing your biography, in fact, was the Peace Corps, because I think that there, I'll take a quick digression here, but I when I started in this business over 20 years ago, I think there was there was way less transparency and communication that just came with the internet. Um and and I think there was a lot of like applicant fear of the admissions office. Like, what if I step out of the line? What if what if I do the wrong thing? And I all I always try to tell people, like, actually, admissions officers are the all of them that I've met are actually normal, nice people. They're not, they're not looking to find some sort of you know arbitrary, tiny reason to kick you out of the pool. And so when you talk about being the Peace Corps, I'm like, I'm like, this is someone who you know who who has heritage in the Peace Corps. Like this is a this is a good person who is who's trying to help people, you know, you know, do other great things around the world. And and I guess the same thing can be true, obviously, of business school as well. I mean, trying to identify people who are talented, who can do great things around the world. I just think it's good to disabuse part of the reason we do the podcast is to try to disabuse people of note of the notion that like it's an exclusionary environment and it's far more of an inclusionary environment.

Shari Hubert 8:46

Yeah, it absolutely. I'm glad that you said that because I mean I'm not gonna understand. It's a scary thing. You know, there's a lot that happens behind the scenes, there's not a lot of control after you submit your application. Um, but but the people who are in this business, you as well, the work that you do is because you believe in other people's potential, you want to really support their growth and their learning. Um, you've you've seen you know the value that's created by people who invest in themselves through the pursuit of these different degrees. And so, you know, we're in the business of really wanting to encourage more people to pursue and to invest in themselves. And the dynamics are such that there are more, thankfully, there are more people interested and see the value than there are, you know, spots available. But it I always like to tell people that it doesn't mean that something's wrong with them, right? I think there's a business school for everybody. And it's really about finding that right place for you. Um, but it's it's in, you know, in a lot of times in admissions, we have to, I tell people we have to, there are three things happening all at once. So we're evaluating someone on their merit, of course, and that's in their control. We're assessing them within a set of pool of applicants, which, you know, may or may not be in their control depending on when they apply, right? And then there's these institutional priorities and objectives that the you know you know the universities have to also think about, and that's absolutely outside of someone's control. And so they should really just focus on their merit, but know that regardless of where they land is where they're meant to be, because there's great schools, you know, around. Um, and it's not, and if they don't land where they thought you know their initial goal was, it's not because necessarily that they weren't a great, you know, person who could thrive in that environment. It's just there are so many different um uh aspects at play that the emissions has to contend with, you know, and trying and for us it's really about creating a learning community and a learning environment. And we really envision ourselves as designers. You know, emissions is the first act in designing the learning community that someone then you know finds themselves in and it hopefully is able to thrive in. Um, but it's not because someone isn't worthy.

Jeremy Shinewald 11:10

Right. It's almost like you're saying that you know it's not a personal repudiation of you. It's like, it's like, you know, you might not you might not fit in, or you know, you know, it's possible you don't you don't you don't quite measure up, but like it doesn't mean that that we're saying you have no potential going forward in your life. We're just saying, you know, you're not making this class.

Shari Hubert 11:26

And and uh well it's yeah, it's and it's right. There's no, I mean, I we don't we don't really like to, I mean, if you go we don't like to use the word fit because we want people to understand that they are good and fine as is, right? Um and so we we are looking for people we hope will thrive in our community, uh, but there's a lot of different places where you can thrive.

The Qualities Duke Fuqua Looks for in Strong Applicants

Harold Simansky 11:52

That's right. Right. As you talk about, or not using the word fit, but as you're talking about someone who really thrived in your community, who what comes to mind as far as qualities or background or what other advantages they may be bringing to the class?

Shari Hubert 12:05

Individuals who are intellectually curious, um, absolutely academically prepared, um, willing to put in the work, um, you know, individuals who value diversity and difference of perspective of lived experiences, people who are resilient, people who are um, you know, ambitious but not despite other people, you know, um, people who who actually, you know, see value in working together and as a team, people who understand they can be you know very ambitious, they can want the best for themselves, they want can want to make an impact, but understand that to really go furthest, you do it together, right? And I I do think that that is very much um indicative of what we mean by Team Fuco. Is it is you know less of a culture but more of a learning educational philosophy, a learning methodology. You know, we we believe that, you know, our ability to really get um Team Fuco right is about um creating a learning model in a way for people to develop leadership. It's it's through Team Fuco that people develop their leadership.

Harold Simansky 13:16

In fact, that's really a quite a timely question in the sense of what role does business schools have today, particularly in the world of AI, particularly in terms of maybe what um what different industries are even looking for right now. So in your mind, you really uh it was really stuck on the term leadership. Is that you is that what you feel like is the biggest value added right now for schools?

Shari Hubert 13:35

I think so. Leadership and judgment is really what we you know, in a world where knowledge is more readily available and almost free at this point, um, really it's the judgment that will be key. And judgment is uniquely human ability at this point. And so we really do believe that that is a core value. Um, and something that we try and make sure that our students uh are able to develop within the context of their experience at Fuqua. Leadership right now is in shorts, you know, supply in some respects. And we are, you know, change is kind of the the you know, the currency of the day and will always be something that, you know, within within the business operating environment, something that we have to contend with. And so, what are the skills that we can provide to our students, our alumni, such that regardless of the business environment, they have the skills and capabilities to weather and to navigate any environment that they find themselves in. And they do that through the leadership that they're able to demonstrate both, you know, within you know themselves, their teams, their organizations, their community, and ultimately society.

Why the “25 Random Facts” Essay Matters

Jeremy Shinewald 14:54

First of all, I've been a big fan of the 25 random facts essay for a very, very long time. It's just fun. And I'm sure you learn 25 cool things about everyone, which is a a really good opportunity. I would you say I like I feel like also it's an essay that's very much at this point of the AI age. It's a tough one to fudge. Like it's it's so short. Is that I mean, are you are do you feel like that's that's a that's an unintended advantage at this point in getting to know people?

Shari Hubert 15:21

I do think it's an advantage. I would say we're looking for, we're not necessarily looking for memorable, we're looking for knowable, right? We don't necessarily need you to be memorable in your 25. We want to really get to know you.

Harold Simansky 15:32

And so that's a great distinction, yeah, actually, memorable versus knowable. That's really interesting.

Shari Hubert 15:38

And, you know, I think this particular essay of many of them out there is one where AI is it's hard to, it's hard to use AI to game it unless you're literally using it to make up facts about yourself, right? And so we say, okay, the use of AI is is fair in terms of providing clarity, but it shouldn't be used as a substitute for your own ideas, your own experiences, your own stories. Um, and no one can tell your story better than you can. The AI could never tell your story better than you can. And so by thinking of these 25 random facts as just an opportunity for us to know who you are, how you think, what experiences have shaped you. You it can be things about you directly, it can be things about your family, it can be your lived experience. It doesn't have to be something really lofty. It can be something that just is, you know, small detailed, but really meaningful and really shows us the real you. You know, and people can talk to their families and their friends and co-workers and say, you know, what is it that's you know, that's kind of distinctive about me or that just that's different or that you really enjoy or that gets on your nerves or whatever, you know, it's we really want to understand. So I love this essay because I don't even know. I mean, can you even think about the number of essays and questions we'd have to ask to elicit this, the the amount of information that we get from this one essay? There is no way because we get so many different kinds of things that people talk about. There are probably there aren't enough questions out there for us to ask to be able to do that.

Jeremy Shinewald 17:18

I feel like Fuku could put out a the Fukua Admission's Office could put out like a book of, you'd have to obviously, you know, inquire whether you could put out a book of like of you know 250 of these things, and and I think people just read it because the ones that are well done are just they're fascinating. You you even for us, you know, like we we we learn something, we we do brainstorm with an applicant, and then all of a sudden you have to go into like real depth and really think about the 25th, and you're like, oh, I didn't I didn't know about that one thing that you just raised or those two things because it's hard to in a brainstorming to get 25 interesting things about an app.

Shari Hubert 17:50

Did you know that it started with the admissions team? Like, so it started that's interesting. I mean, I don't even know how you're how many years ago definitely predates me, but it started as uh an essay that the admissions team would ask new employees to that members of that team. That's so interesting as a way to get to know the members. And then, you know, someone had the great idea to say, you know what, let's turn this into an essay that we ask our our applicants as well.

Harold Simansky 18:16

I had once had a client, and again, I was not prepped for her answer, and one of her tw 25 random things was, I love baking cookies with my grandmother. And I thought that was so compelling and it was also so insightful. You learn so much in those few words. First of all, that she likes to bake, she has a close relationship with her grandmother right away, and that would take you an entire paragraph just to be explicit about that. And she likes baking cookies, and the notion here of someone who likes baking cookies on campus with me in particular would be would be really valuable.

Shari Hubert 18:45

Right. And you know, it tells you a little bit more about her character, the fact that she chose um she chose a fact that says how she connects or what's important to her in the connection between her and her in a in a in a loved one of hers or her family member, or you know, so we get much more out of these um these these facts than what you might think just on the surface. Right. And that's really why we ask it. We're really trying to understand, you know, underneath the surface, what is this telling us about the kind of person this person will be? How will they show up for their teammates? How will they show up for themselves? How will they show up for others? Because it is such a critical element of our community that you be someone who's willing to give as much as you're getting want to get.

Harold Simansky 19:34

And as far as the other essay goes, um, and that is it strikes me as just a little bit more straightforward.

Shari Hubert 19:39

Correct. But you know, again, you know, I would say it's it's it's less about the what and it's more about the how will you? So, you know, the the what you're referring to is the contribution, so how will you contribute? And so we get we definitely get people who talk about the different clubs they want to be a part of and that kind of stuff. But it's I would say that's probably less interesting if you just tell us the what without telling us, well, you know, how will this make you a better leader? How will this make you a better team member? It why are you interested in these particular clubs? Um, in what way do you feel like by by associating and engaging in these kinds of activities and clubs, you will be a better classmate for someone else, you know, or be able to accomplish something that you're, you know, trying to accomplish in your kind of two-year journey.

Harold Simansky 20:24

So

Why MBA Applicants Should Start With Introspection

Harold Simansky 20:25

um, why don't we take a step back? And obviously you have a great philosophy as far as who you want to be in tune Fuquo, what you want the school to look like. But with regard to the admissions process, right from the beginning, how should candidates be thinking about it behind the scenes, what's going on? I'd love to hear just a little bit more about it.

Shari Hubert 20:40

Yeah, I mean, I would say, first of all, they shouldn't try and um anticipate what we're thinking. They should really just uh you know, we have there's a reason that we have multiple different ways in which you can tell your story, right? Through your resume, through the forum, through essays, through the interview, through your recommender. I mean, we truly look at this as, you know, as a mosaic. And there is not one path to get here, and there's not one path to success once you're here. First, start with some introspection about kind of what is it that they one want to get out of the degree long term, but also what do they want the experience to be for one or two years, right? So what's important to them first? You know, I get people who ask me a lot, like, well, how do you you know, can you like how would you compare this school to that school? And that's like, you know, I say like that's not my job, that's your job, right? I can talk about the benefits and what you know, the attributes and the benefits of my program, but you have to start with what's important to you. And so I would encourage people to start with what's important to them, why are they thinking about investing in this degree? I mean, we've we I meet people um every Year who it takes them a couple of years to really be able to decide like this is the year, right? Because and I understand that it's a big decision to make, and so you have to really be doing it for the right reasons, and you don't necessarily need to know the end job that you're gonna take coming out of it, but you have to have enough of a reason um and want to really invest in yourself to to make that investment. You know, it's it's not insignificant amount of investment, both just not just time, but also financially. And so to understand at least kind of what is it, what do you hope to have? What do you hope to aspire to? So I'd say, you know, that starts there, and then get to know, get to know us. Um, as you mentioned beforehand, like we are humans, you know, wanting to support other humans. And many of us have been in the shoes that you know your clients and prospective students are in as well, so we understand what your what the thought process is and what you might be wanting to get up to in the world. And so get to know us, um, get to know our community, our students.

Harold Simansky 23:06

Yeah, how best to do that? Because is that a school visit?

Shari Hubert 23:08

Is that talking with the So we offer campus visits, they'll probably start in, I mean they usually start when school when students come back. So our students are going to come back at the end of August. So we'll probably start campus visits in September. They can go to our website and actually see the schedule and they can sign up based on what's inconvenient for them. They can choose different you know formats and see, you know, kind of craft the day that they want. Uh, it includes class visits, lunch, you know, opportunities to do coffee chats with our students. We have what we call lounge hosts where students kind of file in and out throughout our office, you know, just kind of be there. We have, of course, um uh an afternoon session specifically with our admissions team. But even if it's not a campus visit, we always have we call an officer for the day, so we always have an admissions officer available, even if you pop in. You can visit our campus without an appointment.

Harold Simansky 24:00

That's great.

Shari Hubert 24:01

And we, of course, also then have multi-day week uh weekend events as well, where you're able to better understand different aspects of our of our community. So we have one that's Women's Leadership Weekend, we have a Duke MBA workshop, we have uh one for veterans, we have one for our pride, FUCO Pride. And these are all admissions events in concert and in partnership with our student clubs, affinity clubs. And it's just, and anyone is welcome. It's but you know, it's all about understanding different aspects of our community. You know, you know, where do you find, where do you, where do you find your place at Fuca? It's about finding your place at Fuqua.

Jeremy Shinewald 24:43

Is the admissions committee at some level evaluating individuals and engagements engagement with the program? Like are you looking and saying, you know, this Jeremy didn't come to campus, didn't attend an online event, didn't attend diversity, whatever it is.

Shari Hubert 24:58

I will say that we can we can see, right? The system will allow us to see whether, you know, how many events you've gone to, you know, whether or not you've registered and attended or just registered, all that kind of stuff. Right. We always register attending. Right. But we're not looking at it as like we're going to give you a demerit if you can't. I mean, look, we have we have applicants and prospective students all around the world. And so we absolutely recognize that not everyone can attend in person or life happens, they're busy professionals, you might not be able to make an event. And so that in and of itself is not going to impact your uh ability to you know to be admitted.

Harold Simansky 25:38

But obviously, there's probably no better way to get into the school than visiting or talking to students.

Shari Hubert 25:44

That's right. And I would say, yes, it signals if you can, obviously, it signals. Um, but we get a lot of people who we call them stealth applicants. They just appear and they haven't had any interaction with us. However, it I think what it gives you is the ability for you to make a more informed decision, right? Based on your knowledge and experience with the community. So once someone applies, then we have two reads of the application. Um, we have a whole team operating team who takes a look at the application, makes sure that it's complete. If not, they'll reach out to make sure that we have all the materials. There's a first reader on our team who will read the application in its totality. And they will then go into committee and um make some decisions around whether or not to invite to interview. Then we, you know, if someone gets invited to interview, and it's a rolling interview. So if you don't get invited the first time, it doesn't mean anything. There's no signals here. It just means that you know we hadn't gotten to your application potentially yet. And so once someone's invited to interview, the interview is conducted, we then um have a second different person take a look at the application with the interview results in there.

Harold Simansky 27:04

Oh, that's interesting.

Shari Hubert 27:05

And so there's a really good sense of like, you know, what did the first reader think? What did the second reader think? I mean, that's where we're able to really and they and then they go back into committee and they talk about the application, the applicant.

Jeremy Shinewald 27:17

I hope applicants are listening, I understand the thoroughness and thoughtfulness of this to put an exclamation point on the decent people trying to do right by everyone theme, you know, it's it's it's yeah, there's a lot of time spent talking about every individual person.

Shari Hubert 27:32

And and you know, not only do you have the two readers, but then you they are they're in committee, and those readers are then talking to a larger group of people. And so there's a lot of individuals, humans, understanding your story and who you and trying to you know really get a sense for who you are. Uh, but then that's not all. After the second read, then that's then they decide, okay, who goes to final committee? And then there's final committee, and I sit in on final committee with um. With every applicant. With every applicant. Yeah. And so there's another set of conversations that happen then in final committee. So that's really the third conversation. That's the third, yeah, exactly. And then we make a decision. And during that time, not only are we making an admissions decision, but we're also determining scholarship at that time so that when someone gets um a decision, they understand how much scholarship they're getting at the same time that they get their admissions decision.

Harold Simansky 28:25

No, that

Why Fuqua Accepts the Executive Assessment

Harold Simansky 28:26

certainly makes sense. How does uh some of the things that certainly applicants grab onto are things like test scores or GPA? How do you think about it? Particularly, you're one of the schools that does, in fact, accept the executive assessment beyond the example.

Shari Hubert 28:36

Yeah, so you know, I would say first and foremost, you know, it is important. It's not the most important, but it is important. Academic, you know, uh readiness is an important thing. That's one of the measures that we look at. Um, you know, we you you need to be kind of you need to be intellectually strong, but then we also then use the rest of the application to understand then how will you now show up? Right. And we as we will assume, you know, that we're admitting people who have a baseline skill set to be able to handle the academic, you know, quantitative rigor of the program. So we in that vein, because again, we believe that you are more than just your test score, we we want you to take the tests that you will do best on. You know. Uh so we accept the GMAT focus, we accept the legacy or the focus, we accept the GRE, and we accept the executive assessment. And we found that students did well. And since, you know, we at least in our program, similar professors, similar curriculum, it just made sense that, you know, for our daytime program, this would also be an acceptable test to understand whether or not someone would be able to handle the rigor of the program. And again, we're not necessarily using the test to weed people out. We're trying to understand will you be successful in your first year of MBA from a quantitative perspective, right? So we're really just trying to understand readiness as opposed to weed.

Harold Simansky 30:11

It's not admired if you took the executive assessment. Not at all.

Shari Hubert 30:14

Okay. Not at all.

Harold Simansky 30:15

That's really great to know for a lot of our clients.

Shari Hubert 30:17

Yeah, honestly, we have you know about a third taking the EA these days. I didn't know this was quite that high. That's incredible. About a third taking GRE. So it's it's very you know balanced across all those three tests.

Harold Simansky 30:29

That's really sort of fascinating and actually somewhat um inspiring, I'll say, for some of our clients, because uh something like a test, I think one of the reasons people really focus on it and and many ways over-index on it is this notion here of I can taste it and feel it, in the sense of you have the average, and then me as an applicant will say, Am I above average or below average? And I get and that's something that's impossible to do when you think about an essay, when you're thinking about a recommendation, for example.

Shari Hubert 30:55

Yeah, we we on our class profile will use usually the 80% range as opposed to averages or means, just because you know, people do look at a number and then they anchor in on that. And we want we want people to understand that there are many paths to be successful. And this is just one input. It's important because we want you to, you know, you want you to do well from a confidence perspective, from an intellectual perspective. You know, it's these aren't necessarily always easy classes in the rigor and the pace of the of the class and the fact that you might have a lot of very quantitative classes all in one term, right? So you you we you need to be prepared. But, you know, when you look at the longevity of someone's career, when you look at, you know, what they're up to in the world and what they accomplish in the world, it's all about the other skills. And we, it's interesting because we've we've started, I've started to use this term, the durable skills, as opposed to the soft skills. It's the durable skills that really I think contribute to you know building true leadership capability.

Harold Simansky 32:02

So if people have a tendency of over-emphasizing or thinking about test scores or maybe GPA uh too much, what pieces of the application you feel like they maybe don't give enough time to?

Recommendations, AI Use, and Authenticity

Shari Hubert 32:12

I mean, by the time we see it, they've already taken a test. So we don't, but you know, in terms of how they should spend their time in preparation, the essays, you know, maybe even the preparation for the interview. You know, and you know, you know, again, I think p most people choose great recommenders, but that could be a place too that maybe putting some early investment into whoever you do choose, making sure they understand who you are, what you've accomplished, right? So that they're really able to write the best recommendation for you.

Jeremy Shinewald 32:42

We we talked a tiny bit before about AI. Um, a tough spot for applicants to control is their recommenders at this point. Are you are you feeling like you've got you still have that level of commitment from recommenders to write something honestly and sincerely, or are we starting to see AI seep in? You're like, oh God, this feels kind of a little bit like a the recommender shortcut of the applicant, which is unwilling for the applicant at times.

Shari Hubert 33:06

Yeah, because we can tell if if it's AI for the most part.

Jeremy Shinewald 33:09

So can I, uh I mean, there are times where I get something and I'm I, you know, and in many different media, but uh, but occasionally I still work with one or two clients, and I'll get some, I'll just be like, this is totally way too smooth for someone who's not a not a experienced writer. And even then, like experienced writers, you know, have very particular word choice that just it's not the smoother it is, there's there's something to smoothness that just and it's so we tell people like it does not have to be like we we're not looking for perfection at all, right?

Shari Hubert 33:42

And in in some respects, now, you know, the less perfect it is, the better, right? The truer, the truer it is usually. So I'm gonna quote you on that. So, you know, that's why you cannot control what your interviewer does. But I think the more you prepare them and the earlier, I'm sorry, the thank you, the recommendator, recommender, the earlier you ask them, the better you prepare them, like go to Cat Coffee with them, sit down with them, give them your you know, performance reviews, or tell them like why you're interested in pursuing this degree, what you hope to accomplish, and why you're asking them. Right. Hopefully it's someone that does really know you. That's another reason why we really encourage people to ask someone who has worked with you, who understands your strengths, areas that you need to develop. Because if you ask someone who's a CEO but they've never worked with you, then the chances are a lot more likely that they will maybe use a different tool or mechanism. Right. Or they'll ask you to do it yours, you know, for them, which is a big no-no.

Harold Simansky 34:40

Yeah, yeah. And in fact, we'll frequently tell our clients who come to us and say, should I have a partner write it, should I have a CEO write it? And the reality is is they don't really know your day-to-day work. Right. It's what are they what are they gonna say?

Jeremy Shinewald 34:50

And I just straight up say to my say to the clients, say, look, you know, like as part of your meeting, like I think that some clients, you know, look, you're you're dealing with someone who uh they're senior to you, they're busy, it feels like an imposition to ask them for time for you, you're used to serving them. Like the dynamic, the power dynamic is is tricky for some to start, but but nonetheless, go to them and and go prepared and ask them and remind them of the things you've done, and then say to them pretty bluntly, like, just so you know, you know, this is it's it's this is gonna be an ineffective letter if it's written by AI. And I really have to kindly ask you to to write from the heart and write thoughtfully because that's what I need to make the best impression and to make a sincere impression on the admissions committee. So I think like you have to have that meeting at this point, otherwise you're you're leaving too much chance.

Shari Hubert 35:38

Yeah. I always recommend that they also give them like an earlier deadline.

Jeremy Shinewald 35:44

Yeah, that's funny. I say that too. I say that too, yeah. They don't need to know your real deadline.

Shari Hubert 35:49

Exactly, exactly.

Harold Simansky 35:50

That's right. That's funny. No, that's right. You touched on AI and your ability to sort of see it when you read something. How much AI are you seeing now in terms of essay writing goes and what's the what's the effect?

Shari Hubert 36:02

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, unfortunately, we are seeing it both, you know, in the essays at times, um, but then we also see some people, you know, using it when they're interviewing, like especially virtual interviews, right? So you can see that. So you're actually seeing that in the interview. Yeah, so that that definitely hurts you when we see that. And we're trying to put in place some um some more clear instructions to really help people navigate that. So again, we just hope people we we try and encourage people to say, look, we are not looking for perfection. You can only tell your story, you know, like no other.

Jeremy Shinewald 36:39

Yeah, like you like you're telling your story about yourself, like you don't need notes. You really don't, yeah. Like you just need to relax and like allow yourself to think about it.

Shari Hubert 36:46

But you know, we were also one of the first schools to put in our you know application instructions that it was okay for them to use AI as a tool to help with clarity, um, just like they use Grammarly, just like they use other, you know, kinds of tools. But we also you know had this um thing that we say, you know, authentic individuality, right? So so we want authentic individuality, yeah. So AI, authentic individuality. No, it's really sorry. So we really are looking for you to you know to talk about who you are and um to give us the real you, right? So but so we don't want to shy away from it. We know it's there, we know people use it, but you know, as long as people are able to, you know, they know, like we can tell for the most part when it's really not you in in those essays.

Harold Simansky 37:45

And you can tell, I assume, not by having to pass it through an AI detector. Correct. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can just I mean as we can tell as well. And and I think that that's something it's we you use the word homogenization before, and I think that's what's happening for a lot of our clients, at least where they start with us, this homogenization of these essays, and suddenly it's like you could write it, I could write it, you could write it.

Shari Hubert 38:07

Well, it's also kind of a disadvantage. You're you're just you know, you're you know, providing yourself a disservice when you use it because you no longer are individual, you're no longer unique, your voice is no longer unique. And if you're trying to use these essays to demonstrate how you are unique or the special sauce that you would bring to an environment, you know, using a tool that uses the same words for everybody, right? Does you a disservice?

Jeremy Shinewald 38:37

Like think of any wonderful novel that you've read and and think about what would have happened had someone been using AI throughout the same books over and over. That's right.

Harold Simansky 38:48

It gets you to mediocre. It gets you to 50%. Yeah, it lifts it lifts the bottom, but it it it punishes the top. Sherry, let's just take a minute to talk about your early action round.

Early Decision, Rounds, and Final Advice

Shari Hubert 38:58

Yeah, thanks, Harold. Um so the early decision, really think of it as you're signaling to us that if you were admitted, you would definitely come. And so we, you know, it's not going to be the right application deadline for everyone, but for individuals who are prepared. So people who perhaps, you know, you know, really they've gotten all the application in order. I wouldn't rush to to apply to early decision. But if you have been prepared, you know, you know, six months, a year in advance, you're ready. You know that if admitted, you would come, it's a great round to apply in. And it really signals to us that you're committed. It signals that you really understand our culture and our community, and it's binding. So we do ask you in the application that, you know, if you are admitted, you will withdraw from other schools' applications at that period in time. Um, but and I would say, you know, we definitely, you know, admit people, we scholarship in that, because in that round. Yeah, because some people think, well, because you're saying that you're committed, you don't get scholarship, but we absolutely scholarship in that round. We do tend to get, you know, a strong uh applicant pool who are international applying in that round as well.

Harold Simansky 40:07

So that makes sense. You just touched on rounds. Is there a big difference between applying to early decision round one versus round two?

Shari Hubert 40:16

Not in terms of your likelihood of getting admitted. We do encourage international students to apply, either early action, round one, or the latest round two. We do have, you know, round three and four as well. But I'd say most students would, you know, who are really prepared, strong, apply in in round one. Uh round two is our largest round. Okay. And so, you know, again, you can't go wrong because clearly the majority of people ended up applying, but then you also are, you know, up against a lot of competition at rounds. But we make sure that you know we take into consideration, you know, who who applies, how often, what the rates are, and so we make sure there's scholarship for every round.

Harold Simansky 40:57

Yeah. Sherry, if there's one piece of advice you could give to somebody applying to Duke now, what would it be?

Shari Hubert 41:03

Great question. Let's see. Hard question. There's so many pieces of advice, but I would say to lean into trusting yourself, trusting your gut, trusting your judgment. Know that there are people on the other side who are rooting for you. And know that no matter the decision you choose, it will be the right decision. You know, at Fuca, we're looking for folks who are who are at every turn wanting to cultivate their leadership capability. And you know, if you feel like that's really the area that you want to focus on in that two in the two years or the one year that you're in business school, then um get to know our community. You know, get to know our alumni, get to know our students, get to know our staff, and understand whether or not this is an environment where in which you feel like you could really thrive.

Harold Simansky 42:02

That's a great place to have you. That's great. Absolutely.

Shari Hubert 42:04

Thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it.

Jeremy Shinewald 42:07

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