Michelle Upton on persistence through rejections, setting writing goals and the value of the author community

Hosts Madeleine and Tina are podcasting from a Gold Coast café! Join them as they provide updates on their writing projects and experiences. Madeleine shares her positive feedback from her publisher and her excitement and anxiety about a renowned historian reading her novel. Tina discusses the complexities of editing her third series book and the importance of character development and writing resources like Scrivener. Then Tina interviews the bright and bubbly Michelle Upton, who emphasizes balancing market demands with personal passion in commercial fiction, tackling imposter syndrome, and the significance of preparation for promotional events. She offers practical writing tips and advice for managing the marketing aspects of a writing career. The episode concludes with a feel-good message about the importance of engaging with the writing community and finding supportive peers for the writing journey.

00:00 Café Catch-Up: A Different Kind of Episode
01:14 Weather Talk and Queensland Life
01:43 Writing Updates and Editing Milestones
02:21 The Copy Edit Process
05:16 Publication Schedules and Printing Curiosities
08:47 Character Decisions and Structural Edits
11:16 Plotting and Scene Management
13:59 Illustrations and Visualizing the Novel
15:36 Writing Tools and Top Tips
21:12 Interview with Michelle Upton: Journey to Publication
39:18 The Journey to Getting Published
40:43 The Excitement of Getting Published
42:50 Navigating Rejections and Perseverance
44:09 The Importance of Competitions and Networking
45:54 Building a Supportive Writing Community
50:18 Starting the Writing Journey
54:27 Learning the Craft and Finding Your Voice
01:00:12 The Reality of Publishing and Market Trends
01:05:41 The Emotional Roller Coaster of Writing
01:10:05 Tips for Aspiring Authors
01:20:36 Preparing for Book Launches and Events
01:25:38 Final Words of Encouragement

Links mentioned:
Michelle Upton
Scrivener
NaNoWriMo
HarperCollins Banjo Prize
Red Litzner Anthology
Save The Cat
Story Grid
Emotion Thesaurus, Conflict Thesaurus, Emotional Wound Thesaurus
Queensland Writers Centre writing competitions

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You can find out more about Tina and Madeleine and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author

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Transcript

 [00:00:00] 

Tina: Madeline, how are you? 

Madeleine: Hi Tina, I'm really well and I'm very 

excited. 

Tina: This, this little episode's a little bit different, isn't it? 

Madeleine: It's very different because we are currently sitting in a beautiful cafe, belly heads in the Gold Coast, opposite each other. 

Tina: I know, I can touch you, you're like a real person.

Madeleine: It's so, [00:01:00] so lovely to see you and me two in person. We've just had a beautiful coffee and a nice breakfast and we thought, well, why not record a podcast? So it might sound, the audio might not sound great, but we're going to persist. 

Tina: Yes, it's, we're capturing the atmosphere. 

Madeleine: It's, we have to talk about the weather.

because we always seem to be talking about the weather in the podcast. So exciting. We're both wearing like, singlets, bare shoulders, bare arms. It's winter. It's beautiful. I want to live here. By that time, you'd 

Tina: be in your trackies at the time of day. Yeah, absolutely. You'd just have to come and move up and live the Queensland life.

Madeleine: Oh, I'm very, very tempted. 

All right. So 

updates. Yeah. 

Tina: Let's update. Uh, what have you got? What 

have you been up to 

lately? 

Madeleine: Well, what have I been up to? The last week I've just been in Queensland, so I feel very refreshed and relaxed and it's so lovely. But, um, I know that come the start of October, I'm going to be doing the next [00:02:00] stage of my, my editing process, which is very exciting because, um, I heard back from my publisher last week that they loved.

the structural edits, the third round that I've just done. So good. So good to get that feedback. Hey. So relieved. I'm so relieved. And they said it's going to progress to the copy edit stage. No changes. So I'm really keen to know from your perspective, because I've never done a copy edit. 

Tina: Mmm. 

Madeleine: Yep. What was it like for you?

Tina: Copy edit. Yeah. There's so many rounds of edits, isn't there? And I enjoy, I love that sort of thing, to be honest. I love going through and fixing the little

So I really enjoyed it. I just, I, to be honest, it gives you a really good appreciation of how talented these copy editors are because it doesn't matter how many times you read it or go through it. Um, they're always picking little bits and pieces up. So what are they, 

Madeleine: what are they looking for? Because I'm so many people have asked me what copy edit is, is this like [00:03:00] a proof read?

It's more than that, isn't it? 

Tina: Yeah. So I mean, it could be different everywhere, but I know with me, I had, you know, I handed, I handed my draft into my publisher and then my publisher gives it a read and then she writes some comments and then sends it to an additional editor who then goes through it and she'll really go through it with a.

You know, a fine tooth comb, but sort of give that over and they'll pick up copy edits at the time as well. But then that's, I guess, where more of your structural edits will come in at that earlier stage. Some back and forth there, trying to get it all right and perfect. And then going to the copy edit, which is the stage you're at now, like you said.

And, and I guess that's just, it's definitely still trying to. Pick up those, you know, grammatical issues or, you know, or your punctuation and things like that. But they definitely also, if there were points that or things that they found or some repetition, they did make note on that as well. So it's nice.

It's another set of. eyes looking [00:04:00] at that. And then, um, so it was really good. Like I enjoyed that process. Then I had like a typeset, it goes to like a typesetter after that, which was really interesting as well, because apart from the fact that you get it back and it's all kind of set out like in a PDF of.

Like a real book? Yeah, it's not just a Word document. No, it's got the font, it's got all the spacings, and then they do really interesting things like, they're just actually looking at how the words look on the page as well. So, if, if there's, you know, something that they call stacking, where there's a, Um, and then the next line, the same word is above each other or, or just proximity of words, um, making sure that they all kind of flow in a line and, you know, do they hyphenate or not hyphenate?

Does anything fall over? Does, does it end up with one sentence on its own separate page or? Yeah, so that's a whole skill in itself as well, which I had no appreciation for until the [00:05:00] process. So, but I did enjoy copy edits, so I don't know, how do you feel about that? Do you like crossing the T's and dotting the I's?

Madeleine: I think it's going to be really, really good. And I mean, I've spent a year doing structural edits, so I think I'm just relieved that it's working. Yeah. You, it can go to the next stage. Yeah. And I've been given a really concrete schedule as well leading up to publication, which has been really helpful. So I can now plan the weeks that I really need to be on doing those edits when it's gonna be back with the publisher.

Mm-Hmm. . And it's really exciting to see in the schedule, the print date when the book's actually gonna go to the printers. Yes. Which I would love to see. I'd love to see that process about how, but I don't think it how to do that. I know people do this. Do you know where it's actually being printed? I assume it, I think there's a big printing press in Melbourne, but look, I have no idea.

Maybe, maybe we need to ask our listeners, if there's anyone who knows where the books get printed in Australia, please, please tell us. I'm very curious. I want to go. Let's ask if we can go. Yes. Let's just do it. I [00:06:00] think that would be amazing. Um, when is yours going? Uh, so it's going to, the arcs are going to be printed in October, uh, and because they have to get in early before the Christmas rush, uh, and then the actual proper book is being printed in Feb.

Tina: Feb, okay. 

Madeleine: Yes. What about you? 

Tina: I cannot remember. So, so it's because I love a schedule as well. And so I was like, yes, I got this scheduled all these dates. Um, so, but because there's three books in the series, my schedule is like two pages long. Like it goes up until October next year. Um, so October next year is when they print the lot, the third book in the series for the Christmas release.

So yeah, I'd have to go back and have another look. It was a lot to get my head around, but, um, You're going to be so busy. Yes, but that's, that's okay. It's exciting. It's exciting. But that's very 

Madeleine: exciting. 

Tina: So, so you've got, you've handed your structural edits. They've all, it's been a big relief and [00:07:00] they've gone to copy.

And do you know when you're going to get your copy edits? 

Madeleine: Uh, 1st of October. Okay. So I've got three weeks to come back. So I've sprung up all my weekends in October. That's going to be my focus in October. And at the same time, I've also, which is, I'm just so excited and grateful for, I've been. Um, going back and forth with a historian, Barbara Menchington.

She wrote, um, a wonderful book called Women of Little Lawn. And that's based on her, um, research working with the archaeologists in Melbourne around that area where my novel is going to be set. And so she is pretty much the eminent expert on the women who lived in that area. And I've used her book shamelessly.

Um, and so I've met Barbara. She's lovely. We've been going back and forth for a couple of years and I asked her if she would read The Butterfly Women, my novel before, uh, while I can still make some changes just to get her. And she said yes, so she's reading it now. That's so exciting. And it's, I'm actually more nervous about [00:08:00] her reading it than anyone.

Tina: Oh, it's so hard, hey, because it's like you really want to get it perfect. Yes. So you want to ask the question, but you kind of don't want to. Yeah. Sometimes it's like, Oh my God, please let the feedback be okay. I know. It's vulnerability, isn't it? It's putting yourself out there. 

Madeleine: It is. But she did say, she wrote back to me when she, when she said, yep, she'll do it.

Um, she said, I couldn't help myself, but read the first few chapters. And she's like, I was irritated and my heart went irritated for having to put it down. Oh my God. Don't scare me like that. So that was, I did a little dance in my office when I got that email back. Next slide. How about you Tina? What have you been up to?

Tina: Okay. Alright. What have I been up to? A few things on the go. I received back my edits. Mm-Hmm. from the editor for book three. And this is probably the one where I have maybe the, the most amount of structural edits. I haven't, didn't really have a lot with the other two. So this one, um, is, and you know what?

I, I did know that that was gonna happen. Why [00:09:00] I, I think, you know, right. And it's not. Um, it's, yeah, I, you know, I was tossing between one of the characters either being one way or being completely the other with their character and like to the last minute, I kept doing like these pros and cons and what if I make it this way, how will it affect the story?

But then what if I make it this way? How will it affect the story? And I went with, so it was hard. I actually had to decide. So I went with one, I chose one, um, and now I'm actually thinking maybe this is the sign that it maybe should have done. The other one. So, so now I'm not just sort of making a few changes.

I, and I haven't even begun to change things on the paper yet. I'm, I'm literally just in my head going, if I change her, how will this affect. this and what's the knock on effect and how does it make it feel? And yeah, so it's getting into that deep thinking. 

Madeleine: That's good. It's good to have, think, have that think early thinking before you dive in.

Tina: Yeah, because it's, you know, and [00:10:00] Lisa Berryman, my publisher said to me on my first edits, you know, and she's so great. She always calls me before I, she sends the email to be like, okay, they're coming. Um, I just want you to know. That's so good. And the first one, she was like, You know, you probably never received edits for this before, so just really preparing me and I'm like, okay, thank you.

Um, you know, and she said, you know, just when you go through and if there is a suggested edit, when you make the change, you do have to be careful because then that can unravel all the threads. It's amongst the whole book. So it's just going to be really careful in that. So I'm trying to think it out first.

And this is where my pen and paper comes in. Like I literally, you know, every morning I wake up and I grab my laptop, but this morning I was like, grab my pen and paper because it's that thinking part of my brain that has to come out of the pen and onto the paper. 

Madeleine: Yes. Like you said, this 

Tina: is exactly it.

because it's where I'm not just writing. I'm like, it's the creation of the story I'm getting back into. [00:11:00] So that's why I need my pen and paper. Um, we all have our things. Um, so yeah, I'm at that stage. That's exciting. But because, you know, I do also believe in the math of story writing. I was just going to ask, are you using your math?

This is where it comes in because I have every single scene plotted out in my Excel spreadsheet. I can just go to my scene and I can actually see what happened in each scene. And, and what I do, we'll do next is then go through each scene and plot how I will make a change and then where that knock on effect is.

So I can go through and see how it affects. 

Madeleine: How much detail do you put in your spreadsheet in terms of the plot? 

Tina: Um, not a lot, actually, not a lot, um, but I definitely track just like the main theme of the scene. So this person found out this say, um, I track whether, if it has a change, like positive or negative change, how that affects it.

Is it positive? Is it negative? Then you can look and go, oh, the whole first half of the [00:12:00] book was positive change. Mm-Hmm. You probably need to throw in some negatives there somewhere. Bit of conflict. Just layer it in. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other important one I think, is whether the change was based on a revelation or an action.

So did they just find something out or did something happen like a car crashed into something and that was the change so that you, it's not all just like, oh, I found out about this and then I found about this, and then someone said this and then I found about this. But it's actual. Shifting up the conflict.

Madeleine: And it's making the characters, I think, a bit more active, rather than things just happening to them. Yes, yeah. Where they're actually doing something. I think that's always a hard thing to do. 

Tina: It is, yeah, so that's important as well. So, not a lot, but it does mean I can go back and go, oh, well, this is what happened here.

I'm going to change that now and then what will be the flow on from that, so. Oh, amazing. So deep in that. As well, and um, illustrations from my amazing. 

Madeleine: Wait, wait, I want to go back to that. 

Tina: Okay, okay. 

Madeleine: So do you, as you write the chapter, wait, do you, do you plot it [00:13:00] out in advance or, because I know you said you were kind of a mix.

Yes. But do you write the chapter and then update the spreadsheet or do you do it at the very end? 

Tina: I do it at the end. 

Madeleine: Okay, okay. 

Tina: So I write it first. And that helps 

Madeleine: with writing a synopsis too.

Tina: I think it 

does. 

Yeah. I think it does because you've got it all there where your changes and stuff are. So it depends.

And like the other work, uh, manuscript that I'm just working on at the moment, um, I've done that differently and I've done a lot of fleshing out of each scene. And then I will, before I actually, I'll do a really brief, basic one of just making sure that the changes in each scene are there, like the conflict and everything.

And then I'll flesh those chapters out. Cause I'm kind of like for that one, I've got the whole story already just sitting in my head. So. I'm like, don't waste time writing a, writing a scene. If it's actually not working, like have, you know, what's got to be done here. Let's just work first, go back to the story grid and see if it's worth writing.

Um, I don't know. So it's a little bit different for each one, but so that's where that's going. And then I've [00:14:00] also just seen the most amazing illustrations for book two, which are incredible. My, beautiful illustrator Max Hamilton has done another incredibly amazing job. And um, yeah, I, it's just, it's beautiful.

So I've just gone back with some comments about them, but they look amazing. And so that's all starting to come to life there as well.

Madeleine: It must be amazing to see your novel, the things that you imagined. Actually visualize like that in that way. Yes. It's not something that you generally get as an adult fiction writer, but to see it Yeah, it's that's incredible.

How much say do you have with the illustrator in terms of what it would look like? 

Tina: Yeah, um, so they did ask for some character, just like the publisher asked for some character description initially Um, just really basic like, um, you know, dad wears glasses because I've said in there that dad wears glasses or, you know, the main character has long, uh, brown hair or her friend has like a bow in her hair, things like that.

Or if there's an animal that has something that's a little bit quirky with it, or [00:15:00] do that, or, you know, um, so that sort of thing, but then you really have to hold off and let the illustrator read it. And then she only needs to know those, um, bits and pieces that she's got to add to it, like the bow and the hair or the curly hair or whatever it is.

Um, but she needs to visualize that herself and, and own that and, and sort of create that for herself. So very special, but she's incredible with drawing animals. So, it's just been beautiful to see them all through the book too. That's very exciting. That is very 

exciting. So, that's, so that's 

mostly it from, from me.

Madeleine: Yeah. And, and I know last time you mentioned all these tools and tech that you use, what was it? There were a couple, I think. 

Tina: What was that? Oh, like Scrivener? Yeah. 

Madeleine: So, the Scrivener, and then there was other things. So, I don't understand all these tools. 

Tina: So, Scrivener is just like a different, I guess, like a different like word processing sort of.

tool, but, and I find that really helpful and that's really good for [00:16:00] playing too. So instead of just having a continuous word document, you can have. You can set up however you want and then like have scenes just on the, like, kind of on the side, kind of like bookmarks, which is good because then you can just keep flitting to them.

Um, instead of having to scroll up and down, you can have them as like notes on a, on a pin board sort of thing. Some people use actual pin boards, but Scribdler is like a, you can make that like a virtual pin board. 

Madeleine: So that's cool. 

Tina: So yeah, it just depends on what works for your brain, 

you know? 

Yeah. Is that your top tip?

You know what? We didn't do a top tip last. Last shot. Did you realize that? 

Madeleine: No. So we have to do two. No. I haven't thought of one. I was just sitting here just going, Oh no. I was like anxious. I'm like, what is my top tip? 

Tina: Tip. Okay. 

What is your 

top tip? 

Madeleine: My top tip is to, um, I think be, try and engage with the writing community.

I think that's been something that's the last few weeks. I've just felt really warm and [00:17:00] fuzzy about. I've, I've obviously met you in person today, and, um, one of a really lovely writer, Natasha Rice, so she's being published next year with us. Um, uh, I met her for the first time in person. Um, and I just, I don't know, I felt very warm and fuzzy about the writing community.

There's such a beautiful industry here in Australia. Um, yeah, do engage with it because it's just wonderful. It takes time, I think, to get involved and you don't often, but when, when you do start to build up and I just feel like we've got a lovely community around us at the moment. So that's my tip. Oh, 

Tina: that's nice.

That's true. What about you? 

Madeleine: Go out and find a writer's brief if you haven't already got one. Because I kind of feel like, because you've, you know, already that you've got a similar, you've got similarities, you know, all the early work of, Connection is kind of already done. Yes. We already know that we're connecting on that sort of level.

That's really good. Um, Hey, my, my top tip is going to actually relate back to the last interview that you, that we had on the podcast with Kylie Orr. 

Oh, wasn't [00:18:00] she amazing? She's amazing. 

Tina: And, uh, I, yeah, I just, she loved listening to her and I loved how laid back she was and how open she was with sharing her information and her experiences, but it's relating to Sort of near the end where she was talking about letting go because she was saying she loves the schedule and she loves a plan and she loves, um, you know, she works better with information.

Yeah. And she was saying that sort of not frustration, but, um, difficulty of not really knowing what the publisher's, Um, they, um, publicity people and marketing people had plans and wanting to do more and not wanting to be like, just emailing all the time and being impatient and those sorts of things.

Cause I'm very similar. And so I think, so that really relate and that was really good for me to hear in that In that particular time, because I, um, I'm feeling a little, I've been feeling a little bit impatient to, [00:19:00] um, just, just in general with, um, not necessarily, um, you know, my three books that I've got coming out next year, because they do have a plan and I see where they're going.

But I think, um, just, I, you know, I don't know if I've said before, but I'm an everyday writer and I write every day. So. Um, and my time is very short and very, you know, right between 430 and 530 every morning. Yes. I know. Yes. 

Madeleine: And actually I have been doing the same in Queensland. So yes, you're not insane. It is Queensland thing.

Sorry to interrupt. Yes. 

Tina: I think it's great. Um, yeah, we start early here. So I, so I really want to make sure I'm making the most of that time. So when I don't have anything due for. the wilder zoo series that I've currently got contracted for next year. If I don't have any edits or anything drew. So at the moment it's fine.

Cause I do. So when I don't, and then I'm just working on my manuscript, I think I I've just been getting a little bit impatient with that whole process. [00:20:00] And the next manuscript that is not my next manuscript. Yeah. Um, that I'm working on like sort of in my, we'll call it downtime when I don't have anything due for my, for my current books.

So, uh, that was really good for me to hear the letting go and I'm getting back to just writing it because I'm really enjoying writing it. 

Madeleine: That's good. Is this your young adult manuscript? 

Tina: No, it's, it's a, it's a middle grade, but it's a little bit older, but it's super fun and I'm really enjoying it. And I just, and I think that's it.

I want to write it so much and I want to get to the end of it cause I'm really enjoying it. So I'm feeling a little, a little bit impatient, but I've got to just take a breath and sit back and work out what's in 

Madeleine: your control and what's not. It's not, yeah. The writing is in your control. 

Tina: That's right.

That's it. That's right. And, um, yeah, just letting go of the things that you can't control. So that's my top tip, everybody, a little bit of patience, a little bit of letting going with the flow a bit more. 

Madeleine: And that's like the whole Queensland vibe, right? At the moment. Letting go, just go with the wind. So the theme of 

Tina: today's [00:21:00] chat is Queensland.

Madeleine: What a great message, I think, to leave, leave us on. I think that's a good one. All right. Well, so lovely to see you in real life, Madeline. It's been wonderful, Tina.

Tina: In keeping with our unofficial theme of this episode, we welcome the warm and bubbly Queensland author, Michelle Upton. Michelle's debut book, Terms of Inheritance, was published in 2022, with her follow up book, Emergency Exit Only, published the following year, both with HarperCollins Australia. Both books have been shortlisted for the Queensland Writers Centre Adaptable Program.

In this interview, Michelle kindly shares her journey to publication through the self doubt to the little boost of confidence that kept her going along the way until she received that all elusive book deal. I hope you enjoy listening to Michelle's journey.

Madeleine: Michelle Upton. Thank you so much for being on. 

Michelle: Well, thank you for having me and I'm super excited about this. Because what a [00:22:00] fantastic name for a podcast to start with. And it's just like, I'm so excited. Cause now this is another podcast that I can add to my list and like, you know, we'll keep me company on my walks and, you know, make me feel like I'm not totally alone in this writing endeavor that we go on.

So the more friends, the merrier, so bring it on. So I'm super excited for you. And in advance, thank you for all the hours of entertainment that you're going to give me. 

Tina: I hope so. Yeah, I agree. There can't be too many podcasts. about writing. I think all us writers just like so hungry for it. 

Michelle: So absolutely, we cannot get enough.

We cannot get enough. 

Tina: So hopefully people find it enjoyable, but thank you so much. Like I said, I was just admiring your beautiful space that you have there and how you've, you know, And then I was 

Michelle: saying how it's all an illusion because from the laptop backwards, it's like a dumping ground and I've got notes and books of stacks and everything like that.

But this bit looks pretty anyway. So like, like, you know, [00:23:00] behind me. It's amazing. Yeah. You 

Tina: don't want to see what's in mine. Um, at the moment what's past my screen that I've cropped in. Um, but I'm going to have to, um, Uh, hit you up about how, how to color coordinate when I have my books in my, my, um, cover final.

Cause I, yeah, I, I actually, um, I wear a lot of black as you can see.

Apparently it's not my colors. I've done my color chart and. Black is not, not for me. Okay, okay, 

Michelle: okay. Well, I suppose, I suppose the good thing is, is you can all, like, so I'm lucky, I've got, like, some beautiful pink book covers, so I'll show you those, and you can see them in the background as well. So as soon as I, To be honest, when I, as soon as I saw, so Terms of Inheritance is my debut novel, and as soon as I saw the book cover, I thought, Oh, I'm gonna have fun shopping for this, you know, so it's like, okay, now I know what colors I can go for and that kind of thing.

And, and there's a leopard print [00:24:00] heel on the front, and I, I didn't own anything leopard print and I thought now is the time to embrace this. So now I've got like a leopard print dresses and bags and you know, all the accessories in leopard print. So you can have a lot of fun with it. 

Tina: You can. Yes. The first time I met you, you had leopard print on.

I remember that. I was like, I love your dress. First up. Love your dress. 

Michelle: Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, thank you. Yeah. I love it too. So any excuse to go shopping. Thank you. You know, now you can kind of say, I know, you know, I say to my husband, oh, you know, well, you know, I've got to look the part and that. So I've just got to go shopping.

Tina: It's all part of it. I look forward to that for that time, though. I do have to say, because my books have a lot of animals in them. I've even. And I've never owned a, I was the same. I never owned a leopard print anything. And now I see things and I'm like, Oh, that's a nice zebra print or leopard print. And I can use it.

It's all part of, it's for work, right? It's for writing. Yeah, 

Michelle: exactly. And it all, it all pops out. You just need all the things you're like, Oh, that'd be great. That'd be great. [00:25:00] So yeah. 

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes, absolutely. All right. So Michelle, like I said, I'm so happy for you to, um, be here today. You're one of our very first guests on the, on the book 

Michelle: deal.

so much for having me. 

Tina: So as, as you know, the, I've told you a little bit about the podcast and it's all about inspiring and motivating. authors to get that all elusive book deal. And we've both been there. We've both been on that journey. We both, um, you know, there's ups and downs and it's long and, and there's most definitely not a straight pathway forward.

And it is not the same for one person as it is for the other. It's different for everyone. And, um, yeah, so that's, and that's what I, that's what I used to love. Hearing as well, and Madeline Alcover, she's the same. I think everyone who's writing, even when you've had a book deal, you're just so hungry to hear everybody's stories about how they got theirs.

That's right. That's right. So yeah, when we were thinking about who to [00:26:00] interview on the podcast, I thought about you because you have a really great story of how you got there and we really want to, you know, provide like dig into that and provide those hints and practical advice of what people can do, uh, to, you know, get You know, a few steps forward and path their own way to their own book deals.

So, um, but before we get into all of that. Michelle, give us the stats on your latest book. I want the title. I want your one liner because this is something that I have to practice as well. I want your one liner. Um, who are you publishing with? And give us a little bit of inspiration. 

Michelle: All the deep. Okay. So, so I'm published with HarperCollins Australia and I write contemporary women's books.

fiction or times, it's that dramedy vibe. Um, and you know, my latest book has got like that rom com vibes in it as well. And so in December last year, so that's 23 now, yeah, I have to think about that, um, Emergency Exit Only came out. [00:27:00] And so, um, that's about 35 year old Amelia Harris. Who thinks it's going to be longer than one line.

It might be two or three sentences. That's good. That's so good. It's your pitch. It's good. Yeah, that's right. So it's about 35 year old Amelia Harris, who is in an accident and comes to realize how short life is. And after a particularly bad day at work. She dramatically quits her mundane office job, but rather than going and getting another job somewhere else doing the same thing that she's done for the last 10 years, she decides to go and test out all the jobs that she's ever dreamed of doing.

For example, being a wedding planner, zookeeper, florist, teacher, writer, you know, you name it. Um, and of course, throw in some big family drama and some romance and, and you're in for a good time. So, so that's emergency exit only. Do the same from a debut novel, because that's probably what we'll talk about a lot today as well.

Um, that was Terms of Inheritance, again published with HarperCollins Australia. And this [00:28:00] book is about, well I can give you the tagline for this one. So the tagline for this is, you've got to say in like a cinematic voice, which is four sisters. A vast fortune and a mother who thinks she knows best where there's a will, there's a way.

And so this, this, um, novel is about a dying multimillionaire, Jackie Turner, who's considered to be the epitome of success in the business world. But when it comes to being a mother, she believes she could have done a better job. And so rather than letting her four adult daughters automatically inherit her vast fortune, she sets each of them one task in mind.

that she believes will help them to become better versions of themselves. And so Exercise Hater Mal has to run the Gold Coast Marathon. Um, uh, Mother of, Exhaustive Mother of Three Rose has to write a children's picture book. Um, Isla, the richest and wealthiest of the sisters, has to figure out who she is beyond her [00:29:00] wealth and status.

And Commitment Phobic Jess has to write a Stay in a relationship for longer than three months, but if any of them fail, they all fail and the entire inheritance goes to the Aussie animal rescue. So there you go. They're my pitches for my two books. 

Tina: Oh, you know, and with that book, it's like, I kind of want the, I definitely want them all to succeed, but I also want the animal rescue to get the money.

So it's really hard to 

Michelle: decide. Who do we want 

Tina: to 

Michelle: win? 

Tina: So your two book covers are pink. Are those nice pinks and yellows? Was 

Michelle: that 

Tina: like a conscious thing by the publisher or yourself to stick with that colour scheme? 

Michelle: Yeah, well with, with the, um, terms of inheritance, you don't, you don't really get too much say on what the covers are going to be.

But you certainly have a conversation before. They kind of, because your publisher has an idea what they want. So, so when I talk [00:30:00] about my publisher, Roberta Ivers is my publisher and she's an editor at HarperCollins. So she's in charge of getting that, you know, bringing everybody together to make these books happen.

HarperCollins is the publishing house, but my publisher, I would say, is Roberta Ivers. And so, um, so we have a conversation about what her ideas are, what my ideas are, and then she'll kind of put it out to the designers at HarperCollins Studios, and then they kind of, you know, You know, whip up something magical and do all their creative stuff.

And, and they come back with a few different ideas and Bert will kind of go back and forth with them. And then she'll present it to me and say, you know, what do you think? And that kind of thing. And so, and so yes, they, they are both things, but they, they're very much lean to who your market, you know, who your market is and who your readership is going to be.

And so emergency exit only has got more of that. Um, one convoy. Um in the novel and so I think [00:31:00] that lends itself to that and then with this one it with terms of inheritance it's a Um, you know, it's got that women's fiction kind of vibe going on and they're both You know, they're both bright and colourful and they came out in December.

So it's just before all the holidays. And so they're being marketed as like, like beach reads, you know, with a bit of humour in it and that kind of thing. And, um, so, so yeah, so I think all that kind of goes into it. What time of year do they, does it come out and that kind of thing. And, and, and I've been really lucky because I really love both of the book covers for this.

And, and, and I love pink, so I can't go wrong. 

Tina: Yeah, no, it's. It's almost like once you start delving into it and working with the publishers and finding out what goes into the book covers, it's almost like a science and it's incredible. Oh 

Michelle: yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean. 

Tina: You go. 

Michelle: They, they, they, they, they, they, You know, hats off to them.

I mean, they're, they're so clever and, and I really love it [00:32:00] because I think both of these kind of pop on the book, you know, if you, if you're in a bookstore, they certainly pop up at the shelf for you or if you're in an airport and they, you know, and it's very clear what they are. And I think that's the most important thing is that you don't want to pick up, you know, if it was dark, if these were dark covers or like, you know, like that crime vibe at the moment is kind of like the dark navies and yellows and that kind of thing.

So, so each, you know, genre tends to have a particular look about it. And the reason for that is that, you know, readers, Everybody's very short on time and they want to pick up a book and they kind of want to know what it is they're buying and they're, you know, so if you're into crime, it's like, okay, yes, I know what, just by looking at the cover very quickly, I kind of know what it is that I'm picking up with that book.

Um, so it all plays into that as well. 

Tina: Yeah, no, I agree. Oh, they do. They do. And they look wonderful on the shelf. Um, so [00:33:00] Michelle, what we want to know about here is how you got your book deal. So, um, can you tell us that journey from, um, I guess writing the end on, on, um, in terms of inheritance to actually getting the call or the email about the book deal.

Michelle: So, so, um, I wrote the end, uh, in, um, it was So COVID is kind of like, we were kind of in the thick of it and stuff. But I started writing the novel in July 2019, the year before. And I will actually just go back a bit further and just say, I did write a whole novel before Terms of Inheritance and spent six years writing it and it didn't get picked up by any publishers or agents or anything like that.

So when I came to it, to start writing it in July, 2019, this was something completely fresh. Uh, and you know, I came up with this idea and I [00:34:00] was like, right, I asked myself, am I going to do it again? Because I'd already spent six years writing one book and hadn't got anywhere. So it is a serious question at the beginning because it's a lot of time and effort, and you don't know if it's going to, uh, if it's going to get anywhere, if you want to be.

Everyone has different reasons for writing, but, um, uh, and it's very time consuming. So I was like, okay, I am going to go again. So July 2019, uh, I, I did NaNoWriMo, which is a national novel writing month, uh, in November, and I got to about 60, 000 words, and that was kind of like the first draft, I suppose you would say, and then 2020 hit, and the world fell apart, and didn't do anything for six months, and I came back to it at the end of, um, 2020, and I turned that, um, turned the novel into 84, 000 words, Did some more work in it.

And I was like, okay, right. What is it, uh, that I need to do now? Because I thought I had something that was really good and solid [00:35:00] and something that was pitchable and I could put it out there. And so I started, um, pitching it to literary agents, but at the same time, so this is, this is, uh, we're looking at March, 2021 now.

And, uh, the Banjo Prize, which is a competition for unpublished manuscripts, um, that was running in London. Uh, at that time, and that's run by HarperCollins. And so I entered that, and they were looking for commercial fiction, so I entered terms of inheritance into that. But in the, when you, when you do that, you have to have, uh, you know, your blurb, your synopsis, and all those kind of things.

And they're all the stuff, that's all the stuff that you need to find literary agents and publishers as well. And so I was like, okay, At the same time, you know, you kind of send off for these competitions and then you try not to think about it. Um, and, uh, and so I started sending it off to literary agents.

And what I would say from experience of the novel that didn't get anywhere is that [00:36:00] if you want to put your, um, work out, out there is start off with the literary agents first, um, rather than the publishers. Because. And if you end up getting a literary agent, they don't want to, if they're going to pick up your book, they don't want to know that you've already sent it to all the big publishers because then there's no one else to send them to.

So if you can hold fire probably and send it off to the literary agents first, that's the way to go. And then after that, if it's not being picked up, then you could, um, You know, start, you know, the each publishers have different ways that you can submit to them like they have like, you know, every one Friday of the month or something like that you can enter and so that would be worth, worth doing that.

So anyway, I, I sent it, sent it off. Um, and. I sent it off to literary agents in here, in Australia, in the UK and in the States as well. And I'd got [00:37:00] quite a few rejections back from literary agents. And you start thinking to yourself, Oh my gosh, I've been here before. And you hope you're not going down, down the same trajectory as the book that didn't get anywhere.

And one of the literary agents in the States asked for the full manuscript. So I sent it off to them and I was, I was like, you know, you're kind of putting everything on that. And, uh, I did what you shouldn't do is, um, I read an email just before I got into bed. And, and they said, thank you. You know, that form rejection.

Thank you. But no, thank you. Uh, and, but I really felt like the wind had been kicked out, out of me. Um, and so the next morning I went, I was on a run and because my mom lives in the UK, I was on the, on the, uh, Uh, FaceTiming her and speaking to her and I was like, Oh, you know, it's just, I feel like we're going down this route again and is it going to turn out, is it going to be good?

And while I was on the phone to her, my phone, my phone [00:38:00] rang, just a normal phone call. And I said, Oh mom, I'll phone you back. And so I was prepared to say, Oh, yeah. You know, thanks for finding it not interesting because it's always, you know, spam or whatever. And she goes, Oh, Michelle looked and I'm like, yes.

And she goes, Oh, hi, this is, um, Roberta Ivers from HarperCollins, Australia. And I just wanted to let you know that you've been shortlisted for the Banjo Prize. And so, um, Anyone around me, because I was out and about, I was just like screaming, crying, just absolutely elated. Um, and, um, and, uh, so she said, you know, we were having a quick chat and she's like, you know, I really love it and all this kind of stuff.

I'm like, thank you so much, like, and it just made me realize how You don't know how close you are, like everything can change in just an instant. So I went from feeling just, oh, here we go again, to I've been shortlisted for the banjo prize. You know, you go from one extreme to the other. And so, [00:39:00] um, Yeah, so basically I just, I phoned my mom back and I was telling her and screaming with delight and then I came home and I was screaming at my husband and he didn't know what was going on.

And then, so I was shortlisted and then two weeks later, I didn't, I didn't win Veronica Lando with the Whispering, she won that year. Um, but there was actually, there was actually three of us from that, from that shortlist, I think there was about four or five, I think there was four shortlisted, but three of us actually got published.

That year, um, from that Lisa, Veronica, myself, uh, and yeah, I know the shortlist day with the, the three of us got publishing deals with HarperCollins for that from that. So it just goes to show that you don't even have to, I mean, I feel like a worm because it's the ultimate prize, right? Yeah. I might not have won one, but, um, You know, I did win as well, you know, I did win as well because I got, so you don't even have to be the winner, you can get shortlisted [00:40:00] and it opens up all these opportunities.

And I was just so ecstatic for getting shortlisted because I thought now I've got something to put on my CV, you know, that writer's CV. So that when I go out to literary agents and, and, and yeah, I got the phone call. Two weeks later after finding out I was shortlisted saying, you know, we love it so much and we want to publish it and, and I was foiled in laundry that time, so it wasn't as exciting.

And then I had to keep it quiet, you know, so I could just like tell the other person, you know, you just want to scream it from the rooftop. But you just gotta like, you know, uh, control yourself a bit longer and then, uh, and then you're given the all clear to let everyone know. So, yeah, so 

Tina: it was. Super exciting.

So you were folding laundry and you got the phone call. 

Michelle: I got the phone call and then my friend, my daughter had a friend over and so I just had to like sneak my daughter out and just say, you know, I don't want to publish it, but don't tell anyone. Yeah, yeah. And everyone else was out, [00:41:00] so. 

Tina: And do you think, uh, so at that stage, was it?

We want to take it to acquisitions or was it like, it's kind of gone through this process? 

Michelle: It's it had gone through the process. Yeah, it had gone through that. It was like, we want to publish it. And so within a week or two, you know, they, they give you like, um, you know, I was signing the contract for it. So yeah, they knew what they wanted.

Yes. Yeah. So I was, so I was super excited. And then, and then that was it. Then I was on this, you know, the journey hasn't stopped since then. I've been really busy and everything has changed and I've had all these amazing experiences. Um, you know, my life has completely changed in that respect then, but I'm so incredibly grateful.

Um, but you don't, you never know how close you are and that's, and so that's why you can't give up because the next person might be a yes. And I kind of, I kind of think it is about, um, you know, what editors and publishers are in the room at [00:42:00] the time because. Bert was, um, you know, judging part of the judging panel for the banjo prize.

Uh, and so she decided that she wanted to pick the book up. But if somebody else had been doing it, they might have been looking for something else that they wanted to work on. So you can, you know, you can be so close, but you don't, you don't know what, you know, it's not all, not necessarily, you know, because it can be.

Um, the, the writing isn't up to standard or anything like that. It could just be that, you know, they might have worked on something similar and now they're looking for something different. And so, you know, it really is part, you need to learn the craft, you need to have the skills, all that kind of stuff.

But also it gets to the point where it's a numbers game as well. So you just need to keep putting it out there and don't give up, don't give up, just keep going. Yeah. 

Tina: Yeah. Because so you shortlisted and then you got a contract, which is the dream, right? But it's still, it's still got rejected didn't, didn't it?

By, [00:43:00] 

Michelle: yeah, by literary agents beforehand. Yeah, absolutely. And that, and that's what it, and that's what it, uh, it comes down to you. You know, there's, there'll be for whatever reason, but you never find out more often than not. You don't find out why it's, And then you kind of think, well, because a lot of them read the whole book or anything like that.

So is it just the query letter? That's not quite right. You start second guessing every, you start second guessing everything and you don't know. And then you think, well, maybe on the next thought I'll find out I should change this because you're second guessing stuff, but you've got no idea. No, it could be, it could be perfect.

That's right. And it's just not for them for whatever reason. Or they're full. Yeah. 

Tina: You know, I see. I saw Alex Adsett speak at a conference the other week, and she said she hasn't taken on herself a new client in a year and a half, and she just can't, she's too busy. And it's not that she doesn't get great manuscripts come across her desk.

Michelle: She's just, you 

Tina: know, trying to do the right thing for your clients. You just, you know, Yeah. You can't keep taking on [00:44:00] people. So it's all those things and it's so hard, but like you said, it's hard to determine the difference between is my query letter just rubbish? Yeah. 

Michelle: Yeah. Well, the, the good thing about competitions and I'm a, you know, a big fan of entering competitions is that.

You know, depending on what kind of competition it is, is that somebody's always reading it. So an editor or publisher, somebody's got to, you know, they're reading all of the, you know, everybody who's entering the competition. So, um, and that can just spark off conversations with people. And, you know, you just don't know where it's going to lead.

So, yeah, just keep going and keep trying everything. 

Tina: Yeah. And do you think it's also like you were saying, entering competitions and putting yourself out there and making those connections and the networking and sometimes you do get advice. Some of these competitions do give you the feedback. So that's a really good way of getting feedback as well.

Even just placing, you know, if you're placed and you [00:45:00] know, okay, I should still keep going with it. And um, yeah, just getting your name out there as well. Just all those little touch points sometimes. Yeah. 

Michelle: Because. Because if you play somewhere where you can get, you know, if you get positive feedback for, you know, any kind of feedback is great because you either know where you've gone off track or if it's positive feedback, then that just boosts your confidence.

And we need confidence boosting, because we're always second, we're sitting alone, writing a piece of work or whatever. And we just. And sometimes we just want to know, am I on the right track? Am I completely disillusioned or am I, am I on the right track? And you can't ask everybody to read a 90, 000 word manuscript or, you know, so you, so it is difficult to get feedback on your work.

Um, so yeah, so anything that can boost your confidence, go for it. And the good thing about, um, networking and, uh, you know, trying to [00:46:00] find like your people Like, have a, a group of writers around you, is that if anything, they understand what you're going through and you've just got someone to either, shoulder to cry on, or someone to celebrate with on the spot, because they appreciate, oh my gosh, I'm Gosh, you know, you placed or you got shortlisted, they, they understand what a big deal that is.

And other people might not get it. They're like, Oh, great. Great. Yeah. Good on you. And you're like, you don't understand. You don't understand. I've been doing this for 10 years. You just don't get it. The hours. The hours. Um, so yeah. Any, uh, having, having people around you, we kind of get that is definitely a, a, a A positive and it will keep you going as well.

Like today, I'm after this, I'm going and there's a group of us in Brisbane that anyone can come along to. And well, it might, the venue might change, but, um, [00:47:00] it's called the Brisbane Writers Crew. And I think that's what it is on Facebook. And we just rock up on the first Saturday of every month. And we, and we get together.

Uh, at the moment it's at the coffee shop in the West End in Brisbane. And we get together and everybody is, like all writers, everyone's on a completely different journey. Some people are being published, some people haven't been published, um, you know, some people write non fiction, all different types of genres.

Some people just come along for the fun and, and, you know, and, um, but it's that support group. That support group for you and I need that and, and it's about filling your cup up again and you find this kind of renewed motivation and energy after you've been somewhere like that. Um, because you all kind of get each other so, um, yeah, if you can kind of hunt, hunt down those people, it's, it's well worth doing.

Yeah, 

Tina: that's really important. And community, I think, I remember [00:48:00] calling, uh, messaging you when I met you at the, um, so the Gold Coast, uh, writers, uh, group. So I went to that and you spoke there and I'd only just started going there because, um, Um, yeah, I was, I'm trying to, you know, delve into the, into this more, cause you know, just at that point where the, you know, my kids are kind of old enough now I can leave them for a bit cause you know, kids sort of, you know, quash those plans of a weekend.

So, um, yeah, so it was really awesome seeing you there and of course we've got in common that we're both HarperCollins public authors, which is great. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And then just. Yeah. There's almost an automatic sort of connection do you find with other authors, um, because then we were like, but I was just asking you random questions on Instagram back and forth.

And um, yeah, you just kind of feel that connection with other authors. Yeah. Straight away. And so you're happy to offer support. 

Michelle: I think before, you know, if you haven't been out there [00:49:00] and kind of trying to find any writers or be part of a group or anything like that, it can feel really daunting, but, um, my advice is don't be afraid because they are just the lovely, everyone is so lovely.

So lovely and so incredibly kind and generous with their time and you will just, you know, you won't regret it. You'll just feel this abundance of, you know, warmth and joy, radiating off all these people because writers really are great, you know, really are great people. So, uh, yeah, don't be, don't be afraid and you can just go and.

It's like a place to start off if you're not sure of any events for you is you can just go to an author event at a library. So if an author is talking, you can just go, you go to that and, and there'll be other readers there and you can start conversations with them or with the librarians and they might know.

And so you can, you can, you could, that, that might be a place to start if you're not sure of any particular writing groups. 

Tina: And libraries often have their own, [00:50:00] uh, writing workshops. I know the Gold Coast Library here has heaps of workshops and they have book clubs. And so there's heaps of, and they're often free.

A lot of it's free. But then most, um, local council areas have, um, writers groups as well, or the major 

Michelle: local city. But the, when I, so, I didn't always want to be an author when I was a kid, I'm not one of those authors who knew what they wanted to do straight away, I came on to it, came into it later in the game.

But one of the, I kind of thought to myself, oh really, you know, I want to have a go at this writing gig. And so, um, um, I, There was actually, and actually once I made that decision, I actually got a text message from a friend from Playgroup, from one of the moms from Playgroup saying, I'm setting up a writer's group.

Does anyone want to join? And it's like, well, if that's not a sign from the universe, I don't know what it is. I hadn't written anything for years, probably since my degree. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to go anyway. [00:51:00] And then I thought, well, if I'm joining this writer's group, I better start writing something.

And through Redlands Libraries, where I live on the south side, on the bay side of Brisbane, um, they, they had, um, uh, a competition going called the Red Litzer Anthology. And it was just a short story under 2, 000 words. Um, and so I, I gave that a go, wrote the short story, sent it in. And I got shortlisted for that and, and it got published in a little anthology.

Here we go. I even pulled it out today and that changed everything because after I did, after I did that. I actually thought to myself, Oh, I wonder if I could write a novel. And I hadn't, that hadn't, I hadn't really thought of that before. I thought, what, what would be next? Is it like a, a, a really big challenge?

Cause I always like to have something on the go. And, um, and you know, the, that, And I really believe, you know, because they had that going on at the library, that's why I stepped into the direction of [00:52:00] writing a novel. And that, that, and talking about, you know, when we were just talking about having that, um, that confidence boost.

And someone going, oh yeah, you're on the right track. I really believe that that's what they're doing. That when, you know, being shortlisted in that, in that anthology did, because it was, um, and I bet if, if anyone's ever read the alchemist, it talks about beginner's luck and how if you're on the right path and you're in line with the universe, the universe will give you that bit of luck.

And it's that bit of confidence that will keep you going. And I was running on that bit of confidence for like six years. You know, that lasted, that had to last me a long time because you know, we're much in between. You know, and it, and it keeps you going. Yeah. It, it keeps you going. And, and so you never know.

Um, you know, like you go to, you go to these places and, and you'll be pleasantly surprised and you'll be like, oh, there's all these things going on. And, and then you'll see what, you know, what you're drawn to really. So, yeah. 

Tina: And I [00:53:00] like you say that. Um, you know, in the, the six years in between, just going back to like the book that you wrote actually before the book that you got your deal with, 

Michelle: um, a lot of people, my apprenticeship novel is what I was just going to say.

Tina: It feels like you can't imagine someone saying to you the next six years, you're just going to be practicing. Yeah. 

Michelle: Because, because if, if someone told you that you go, oh yeah, nah. I'm not 

Tina: doing it. 

Michelle: I know. Okay, no, I probably, I probably wouldn't sign up for that. Yeah, but it's so, but it's 

Tina: so true, do you find?

Like, it is actually quite accurate. Some people may just write one and get, And it's all just smooth sailing, but 

Michelle: that'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's that, um, when you, when you write in it, you think he's apprenticeship novel. This isn't going to be my apprenticeship novel. This is it baby. 

Tina: Just, I'm just going to sell this one.

I'm going to be sailing. Yeah. 

Michelle: Yeah. That's right. And then, and then, and then you kind of get to the point where you've [00:54:00] exhausted every option you've entered every competition for it and you can't enter it again the following year. Yeah. Yeah. You, you know, you've, uh, sent it off to every literary agent that you, that you know of that wants your kind of work and, you know, all the publishing houses and that kind of thing.

And then it gets to the point where you have to go, no, okay, I'm going to put that aside. Let's try something else. And that's where you kind of say to yourself, I'm all prepared to sign up again, because there's no guarantee at the end of the next one that the outcome is going to be any different. But the difference is, is that when I was writing that novel and I started writing it straight away, I had no idea what I was doing.

And so alongside that, I was writing, uh, I was, um, you know, learning about the craft of writing, buying books, trying to go to, um, any, you know, any courses. I was listening to writing podcasts about writing. Writing and the craft of writing and I was kind of trying to take all this on and I, you know, I paid for three manuscript assessments for that novel as well and kind [00:55:00] of, you know, changed it in each direction that was kind of, you know, so, um, and it takes while to learn the craft, you kind of think about it, you know, if you wanted to be a plumber or a doctor or whatever, you're not just gonna, you know, You need to be able to do it straight away, you know, you need to practice and, uh, and, you know, you know what you're doing and learn the rules so that you can kind of, oh, okay, now I know what can, you know, do it a bit better than that or whatever, and then make it your own.

Um, so, but I, but I honestly, so. So that was six years for my apprenticeship novel. It took me, um, over the period of two years, well 18 months, for terms of inheritance. Um, but if you want to add the time together, it was probably under like 12 months, because I had a big break. Six months gap in between or whatever.

Um, but then, when I, when just before Terms of Inheritance came out, HarperCollins said to me, have [00:56:00] you got it, have you got anything else, any other ideas? And so when I presented them the idea, which I'd just thought of, or actually, but actually I'll say that, but, but I'd, I'd had ideas, kind of came together to make this other idea.

So, you know, no ideas are kind of on their own. And I said, yes, we love it. Uh, and, and my publisher said, you know, give me, give me, um, a tagline and a blurb and I'll, and I'll take it to acquisitions next week. And I was like, Oh my gosh. And that was, that was a Friday. And then they said, can you have it in on Tuesday?

So I'm like pulling my hair out. Okay. And then on the Wednesday they said, we love it. We want it. Here's another book deal. And they were like, and so this was, um, It was signed, um I hadn't, I hadn't planned it, plotted the book, because I'm a big plotter, I hadn't plotted the book or anything like that and [00:57:00] no words were written.

And, and that must have been about mid, it was, it was just before Terms of Inheritance came out, so I want to say like, just say it was beginning of November. And then they said, okay, so we want it to come out the same time as next year. So we're going to need, need it, need the first draft in. At the end of March, so I was like, okay, so I've got like four months or four or five months to get this out, you know, and so you're like, okay, so, and, and I, and I did it and I, you know, I was really pleased with it.

I love it. It was full on. But, you know, if I hadn't had those, hadn't had the experience of writing terms of inheritance, I didn't get manuscript assessments for that, but I had a new confidence having written terms of inheritance, because, because even though it was over a period of 18 months when you put it all together, I knew that I was able, I knew that I would be able to write emergency exit only and get the work done because of [00:58:00] my previous experience.

Whereas if my first novel had taken six years and then, and then three manuscript assessments and I've got that picked up and then they said, Oh yeah, we want another book in for next year. Like, there's no, I'll be like, that's, that's not going to happen because I need to do this. I need six years. You know, like I'll need six years.

Yeah. But, um, so absolutely no writing is wasted. Um, it's, it's all goes into your 10, 000 hours. You know, if you want to be the master at something, it's just about sitting down and doing it. And some things will work, some things won't work, but figuring out what doesn't work is just as important. So you can't look at anything as being a failure, because it's not because that makes you go, Oh, okay.

Well, I know. That, that doesn't work. That approach doesn't work or that's not my voice particularly, or I wasn't pleased with that. Or maybe that short story, maybe that's not my genre. You know, that's not for me. It's too, you know, it doesn't just fit with me. Um, and [00:59:00] another genre is easier for me to approach and that's how my mind works.

But so you're learning all this stuff about yourself and your voice and, you know, it's, it's, it's just invaluable. You can't, you know, All, all of that. It's all worth it. 

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it just reminded me of a clip that I saw the other day and it was a basketball player being interviewed and they just lost their game.

And the reporter was like, so basically you failed it today, you know? And he was like, dude. And he had this really good analogy where he was like, So I'm going to say the incorrect stats because I don't know, I can't remember the way, but he was like, so Michael Jordan won nine out of 12 premierships, say.

Michelle: Yeah. 

Tina: And it's like, does that mean he failed at basketball on those other three years that he didn't win? Yeah. So you didn't. It's just all part of the journey. It's not about whether you win that particular game. It's how you get there. And so you have fails, but it doesn't mean that you're failing as a writer or author [01:00:00] or you're going to fail at getting published.

Yeah. 

Michelle: And I think, I think we see it as failure, but probably no one else sees it as failure. And, um, Because it's such a subjective industry as well. And like you can, you could even say, oh, you know, well, there's certain trends at the time. And so, you know, if you just, if you just written a vampire book and, and, but it was just after everyone was exhausted with twilight and everything like that.

That doesn't mean it's bad, you're a bad writer. It's just like bad timing for the trend at that moment or whatever. So there's so many factors that weigh into it. And, um, You know, it's like, you know, you put all that work in, but it, it, you, when you get that reward at the end, it's even sweeter because you know how far you've come to get it.

Would I like to have it, would I like to be in a, would it like it to happen all overnight? Well that, yeah, that would be great because it would save like a whole lot of work. But then you wouldn't be, You know, you won't be as good as you are now. It's so true. So, you know, um, [01:01:00] and also it's, um, it's more than that because once you've done your book and then you go out and you start talking to people, um, you know, you can bring all that experience with you and then you can pass that knowledge on and, and it's almost like preparing yourself for that as well.

Um, yeah, I don't know what I'm trying to say there. But, but it. I don't know, it's just so much more than the publishing deal, um, you know, that, that journey. Yeah, it is. That journey is so important because, okay, so, so this is, so this is what you find. So. So my, um, goal was, okay, I want to get published. I want to get published, that's it, that's all I need in life, I want to get published.

But you know what, as soon as you get published, you go, your goals change then, because it's like, okay, so I'm now looking at the next part of my life. I've achieved that. So what, what is it I'd like to achieve next? So then my goal is I'd like to have a [01:02:00] career. So what does that mean? Well, that means now I want more than one book publishing.

So then you're not, so, so then you, you're looking ahead and you're kind of saying, well, what does that look like? And so your goals are changing. So. Even when you hit your goal, then your goals will change and do you know what I mean? So you're kind of always growing. So there's a new massive time now. Um, and, and, and so it, you know, it all.

You know, it feeds into itself and everything is changing all the time and 

Tina: yeah, yeah, it's true. And it's really important message. And that's why one of the reasons we like, we love hearing these stories and, uh, and sharing those stories. Like you were just saying, like sharing that information to other authors and helping them.

This is exactly what we're trying to do with the podcast because there's a lot of people that are, you know, But still in that six years of their apprenticeship novels. Yeah, that's 

Michelle: right. Keep going, keep 

Tina: going. Hang in there. There's no real overnight success, you know, you said like it [01:03:00] may appear like it, but that person's probably been writing for 10 years.

So it's really important. And also, 

Michelle: you don't know, you don't know. When you're going to have a bestseller, so, so for example, you know, the, the, the books I'm producing now, you know, you're putting it out there and then, but it could be your third book or your fourth book that kind of explodes, you know, and then, but then everybody wants to read your backlist, you know, so you're always on this kind of journey of trying to get to as many readers as possible and, um, You know, but you never know when things are going to change and now there's different opportunities coming up and so you're always striving for that because, you know, you want your story to, you know, get out to as many people and that kind of thing.

So you're always striving for the next thing. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't end. And, and just because you publish doesn't mean that, um, you know, I presented, so after Emergency Exit only, I presented some new ideas, uh, for [01:04:00] HarperCollins, um, and, and they were like, Oh no, that, you know, that's not quite what we're looking for now.

So then I'll go back to the drawing board and now I've got something that is really exciting and they, and my publisher's super excited about it. So that goes on to the next thing. But before that it was like, Oh no, that's, that's probably not quite right. Oh yeah. I'm not sure about that. You know, so. Um, when, you know, just because you get published doesn't mean that you, you know, everything's going to be yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, from then on you're still working.

Yeah. It's not a walk in the park. No, that's right. That's right. And it's not just handed to you. 

Tina: Yeah. Cause it is still a market as well and that they have to, um, and again, it's still not even that your other pitches were bad, that were probably amazing. But it is about like fitting what's, what's the market need at the moment.

Absolutely. 

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because I write, because I write commercial fiction, so that is, you know, like what's, what are the trends? What are the, you know, they're kind of playing into all that and, [01:05:00] you know, trying to predict what's, what's going to be popular in the next 18 months because, you know, or two years or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that's always a thing. But I think, I think. I think what I've, what I've learned from that is that you have to, you twist it, you have to twist your own gut and you have, and you, and you, Go for something that, um, really speaks to you and that you're really passionate about. Uh, and try and keep it, because it's easy to get lost in all the noise and, you know, you can be looking at what they're doing, what they're writing and what they're writing, you know, that kind of thing.

You can get lost and, and you have this kind of feeling of imposter syndrome. Like, it's awful because you get, because you're like, you get, you, so then you're invited onto these, like, um Uh, writers festivals and all this kind of stuff, and you're just there going, oh my gosh, they're gonna, at any point they're gonna figure out that like, I shouldn't be here, and that, and it's not the case at all, but you still [01:06:00] have this, like that, that's probably one of the most disappointing things, is that you still have this, uh, self doubt, self doubt and all, all the feels for everything, and it's like an emotional roller coaster and stuff, but um, I'll tell you what, there's nothing more rewarding than Like you say, you reached out to me on Instagram and stuff.

But that's what's so great nowadays is that, because you're on Instagram and everyone can just follow you on there or whatever, is that readers get in touch with you. And oh my god, the messages that people send to me, and it's just, it absolutely, Makes your day, your week, your year and to have like the feedback that people have, um, seen themselves in the characters and can totally relate to it.

And, oh my gosh, this book came to me at the right time. And, oh, you know, I got given to it in a present and I haven't read for years and now I'm back into it. And all the, you know, all the feels and then, and then they tell you their personal stories and you just like, you know, you're crying and welling up.

[01:07:00] And, and that's, that's really what it's about is with my novels. I want to. So you kind of think, what are your novels about? What do you think that you're trying to do? And so for me, it's what I want from a book. I want to laugh. I want to cry. But at the end of it, my goal is that I want my reader to feel like a good friend has placed their hand on your shoulder and said, You know what?

I see you. And you matter, but you know what, it's gonna be okay. And that's, that's what I want you to feel when you finish one of my books. And, and hopefully make you feel like, Oh my gosh, I just want those characters again. And then you can start the book again. But that, that's what, that's what I look for.

That's what I look for in a book. And that's kind of, you know, what I'll, that's what I want to put out into the world. You know, that's what I want to receive as well, so. 

Tina: Yeah, no, that's a, that's a beautiful thing and that's a beautiful, I guess, um, goal for you with each book. And that's why your two books already have been amazing.

And your next one I'm sure is going to be exactly the [01:08:00] same. Um, have you I'm sure it will. Do we, can we know any more? Yeah. Like is it, is it like sort of

Michelle: Can't really talk about it at the moment. It won't be, won't be this year. Um, hopefully something will happen next year. That's the, that's the goal. Um, but, um, uh, all, all I can really say about it at the moment is it's a little bit, there's something a bit quirky about it, which I love, but it's the same vibe.

It's like that Michelle Upton book, like what I was saying before, but it's, there's something a little bit different about it this time, but I won't, I won't say what. And I'm, uh, like 20. 3000 words into it or something like that. So I'm still at that. Um, I've plotted it. I know exactly what's happening, where it's going.

And yeah, you don't have a three month deadline for this one. I know. So I've got a bit more time, which is great. And I'm really enjoying it. I'm super excited. I love the characters and getting to know all them. And, and yeah, and it's, but but I'm in that mindset of because, [01:09:00] um, So, so when Emergency Exit came out, that was at the beginning of December, and you really probably have like about six months of events and, you know, where you go into libraries and writers festivals and all that kind of stuff.

And, and if you get your book in Big W, it's in Big W for six months and that kind of thing and all that kind of stuff. So I've, I've gone past that stage now about seven or eight months, I think, since Emergency Exit came out. And so now I'm in. I'm, I'm at home in my, well not now, but I'm in my sweats and I'm, you know, drinking endless mugs of coffee and I'm getting the words down.

Um, so I'm at that process in the moment, which is the complete opposite of, you know, when I'm all shiny and glossy and out and about doing events. I'm like, yeah, this is the hard work part. Behind the scenes, but this is, this is what you're getting 

Tina: down and dirty. So you can produce that beautiful, glossy thing at the end.

Michelle: This is the, this is the work, you know, this is the way [01:10:00] the podcast of the fun and the, you know, but yeah, I'm doing getting, getting the 

Tina: work done. So do you have any tips for getting those words down? Michelle, what's your writing? Do you have a routine? Do you just write whenever? 

Michelle: With, yeah, with, I mean, I suppose it terms of inheritance.

You know, um, when that novel came out, I didn't have a time frame, so it's kind of like it got done around whatever needed doing at home. With Emergency Exit Only, I had a very tight deadline, and so with that, it was like, 5. 30 in the morning, don't stop writing until I've hit my word count, because I had a deadline.

I only had so many months. So it was a case of 90, 000 words divided by how many days I've got, but then increase the word count because I can't just hand in the first draft, I need to work on the draft or whatever. And so that was very regimented this time. My goal is like about a thousand words a day.

That's what I try to do. Um, um, but I'm, But it, [01:11:00] you know, if you've got those tight deadlines, it can be very intense and, you know, you can get a bit burnt out. So, you know, you have to try and look after yourself. So for me, I have the idea that I get more work done, the words down. As quickly as I can in the day, so then it frees up the rest of the day, and the rest of the day where I don't have to think about it is my treat.

Can I? Um, but like, you know, I might go to the cinema on the night or, you know, that kind of, so you have those kind of things. But what I do is, um, on the NaNoWriMo website, is that you can put your new, at any point, it's not just in November, you can put your project that you want to do, and then you can add your word count, Um, to that every day and it's got like a nice little graph that goes up and up and up every time you add, add how many words you've added that day to your project.

And so, and then they give you little badges when you hit 5, 000 words. And now I'm working towards my 25, 000 word badge and it's just like, it's [01:12:00] just. It just makes you feel like it just allows you to see how productive you've been in that day in it. And so that's like a little reward thing because you're seeing the graph going up and like it's told me I'm 26 percent of the way through of a 90, 000 word novel.

So that's good to know. And you maths for you. 

Tina: You've got to do just whatever you can that will help you. And it's daunting when you just think, Oh gosh, I've got all of this to write. 

Michelle: When you, I think the hardest bit is when you get that. The middle part of the book or the, you know, halfway through and you, you, you, you know, 45, 000 words, you know, whatever.

And you think, Oh my God, I've got to do that again. But, but the, what, but what I taught, what, what I tend to find is that when you get towards the end of it, because I'm a plotter or whatever, I'm so excited about getting to the end of the novel. Once you've gone past that midpoint is that it comes really quickly.

Then it's because, you know, you've got the, all these lost this moment and you hit the big climax and all that kind of stuff. And you're so excited. tell the [01:13:00] story. So all that, I know that that comes a lot quicker. So, and the first bit is always quicker, but it's, it's quicker to write in one sense because you're super excited to get all the story out, but it can be slow in the fact that you still kind of, even though it's contemporary fiction, you still world building and like, who are the characters and where are we and all that kind of stuff.

Um, but then yeah, and then in that middle bit that can slow down, but then, you know, knowing it speeds up helps as well. And I love that 

Tina: you still, even though it's your third book, um, you're still, or fourth maybe? Yeah. So yeah. Oh yeah. However you want to count it. For X amount of years you've been writing for, that you still pull out, like you were saying, you still pull out Save the Cat and Story Grid.

You're a Story Grider too. I'll tell you what. 

Michelle: Yeah. Story. Yeah. So Story Grid is what, um, the podcast That I listened to, you know, uh, nine years ago. I started listening to that. Well, it probably wasn't that long ago. It's probably, it was probably a bit, a bit later, [01:14:00] but I started listening to that. So if you, so with the story grid is fantastic for learning about the craft of writing, but my suggestion is if you're going to start, the podcast is actually kind of ended now.

Um, but if you, it's still up, it'll still be up to listen to, but I would suggest going right back to the very beginning and working your way from there, really, because it gets a bit more complicated with the language and stuff that they're, you know, exploring. Um, but it's basically the, the, um, Sean Coyne, who, uh, he was an editor.

Um, for a big publishing house over the years, and he kind of used this method to kind of give feedback to his writers as to what part wasn't working, rather than being vague about it. He was able to go, well, you know, your all his lost moments isn't big enough, or, you know, whatever, you need a bigger climax here, or whatever it is.

Um, Uh, so he could be more specific and have that language to use and now he's turned it so that writers can use it as well. And Tim Groll, the person who's hosting the podcast, he's writing his [01:15:00] first novel. Well, he's not now because it's years later, but he was writing his first novel, so he's kind of doing that a long time.

So that was invaluable. And the, and the book I've used, and then when I've got my copy of Save the Cat, it was like, yes! I know all about that because that's what they were talking about. But this is, this is great. And even now, like, so with, with emergency exit only and like book three that I'm doing now, I use this and it's just, you know, it's just invaluable.

This is just one of the big, you know, best tools for me. And another book, which I think is good for writers, like more on the line level is the Emotions Thesaurus. I've got that one too. And then, and then, and I'd probably say the blue one, the Emotions Thesaurus is probably your number one guide that you want.

And then if you're looking for other ideas, they do like the Conflict Thesaurus and the Emotional Wound Thesaurus, but they're probably more if you're looking for ideas, writing and, and if you've got. [01:16:00] specific circumstances you can look at, but that's probably the one to buy because it just, you know, um, so they're great books.

Tina: Yeah. As I'm writing, I often, I'd make a heap of notes in, cause I use Scrivener to write. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. 

Michelle: I had a go at Scrivener, but now instead I use big index cards on and write on that because, um, Yeah, I just need you to be able to see it all in one go. Yeah, I often do both. I 

Tina: do both. I find sometimes I get stuck when I, when I try and pull it into goodness.

So then I try and put it all my index cards out and then sometimes I get halfway through that and I pull it back in again and I do a bit of both. And sometimes I just pants it. Sometimes I just pants it. I love when I, when I discovered that there's actually math involved in creative writing, It just worked for me, like in my brain.

It loves the tech of it. It loves the, you know, being put into little boxes. I love that. Yeah. And I agree. Save the Cat is amazing. Um, if, [01:17:00] if any writers who are listening don't have that book yet, I thoroughly suggest getting it because, and, and StoryGrid I think is kind of that step, that next step. Step and it goes a bit deeper.

Michelle: Yeah, 

Tina: yeah, yeah, it 

Michelle: does. For sure. Yeah. When you, 

Tina: like, when you learn where things are supposed to be in a, in a novel or in a movie. Yeah. Next time you watch a movie or you read a book, you just go, that's that moment, that's that moment. And then that's that moment, you know, it odds. That's big story coming in

Yeah. Yeah. And all is lost and then, yeah, it's. 

Michelle: And, and I think because, like, when you're studying the craft and you're doing it for so long, like, for example, what I found was, so I'll, like, I just plotted out book three, um, and then I'm kind of like, so, so you have this initial idea, uh, and you go, and which is like, so for example, and it's like a blurb, so, so for this book three, I've had to do like, um, like, uh, a tagline.

Um, the equivalent of a blurb. So, you know, [01:18:00] just kind of what I told you at the beginning for these books, similar kind of thing. And then like a three page synopsis. So you have to kind of know every single thing that's going to happen in the book. And, and I'm doing that, I'm doing that without having written the book.

So you're kind of thinking of all these things, but what that does is now, because you have this kind of knowledge of using something like, or whatever, you just automatic, it's automatic, it's automatic with you. And Whether you, whether you've read Side of the Cat or not, if you do lots of reading, you'll subconsciously know these kind of things, even if you don't have the language.

So, when people say they're pantsers or plotters, or you know, they, they subconsciously know they're doing this without necessarily writing it down, or Or whatever, but when you've, when you've got that kind of skill going back to, you know, all the years that you put into learning the craft about it, you take that idea and then I'm like mapping it out scene by scene by scene by scene and then I was able to put, I was able to put it all out and then I was able to pull out Played by the Cat and I'm like, oh yeah, that's [01:19:00] the all his lost moment, that, that, that's the, the climax, and, and, Yeah.

And, and, and, um, in the book it says, you know, at about 22%, you know, you might want this to happen. And I was like, and I said to my husband, look at this. And then, and then, because then when I, because when I started writing it, I got to 22 percent and I was dead on on my index cards. And I was like, Oh, Yeah.

It's such a good feeling. Yeah. 

Tina: I've done that too. I use Excel spreadsheets and I plot it all in. And then, you know, when you finished it and you put your word count in and when it, when it all lines up in that exactly where it's supposed to be, you're like, Oh, I'm a genius. 

Michelle: I said to my husband, I said, it almost looks like I know what I'm doing.

You never, you never believe it. You can never believe it. No. Until the work. The, you don't know what you've got, like you really are, like you're hoping that you've got, but they're, they're good guidelines. Yeah. You know, and then, and then it's like anything, [01:20:00] once you know the rules, then you can kind of play with it and have a lot of, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Tina: So 

Michelle: that's 

Tina: good. Thank you. You've given us so much amazing advice on your journey. And it's just been, it's really important. Like we were saying for, for aspiring authors to hear that. Um, 

Michelle: I 

Tina: have one last question, uh, for you, as you know, my, I have. Books coming out next year with HarperCollins. Yeah. Yay. Uh, so, you know, I'm getting close now.

I've got, it's almost, it's kind of six months to, um, the planned launch date. Any advice for me? 

Michelle: Okay. Well, um, I suppose what I'd say is because Already, it's, it's kind of, it's getting to the point where it's gonna be out there in the world, but now you're taking off your writing hat and you're putting on your marketing, your, you know, all the, all these kind, all these, all the other jobs that you're gonna do.

So you'll be speaking at libraries, at schools, you know, putting yourself out there. And [01:21:00] it's, um, like I used to be a primary school teacher, so I'm used to standing up. In a room full of like 30 kids and teachers being around and public, public speaking to a certain degree. Um, but when you go in and you're doing events at libraries and stuff like that, I think my advice would be, don't underestimate, um, the preparation time.

That goes into those kind of events. So even if you're going to be on a podcast and even if it's not on video and all that kind of stuff, you know, you might get questions that are coming through and you want to have it. You want to be having to think about these kinds of questions that there's this, there's particular types of questions that are going to keep coming up.

And normally that the first one is always, what's your book about? Uh, then it's like how did you get the idea and then you might go into your writing journey and that kind of thing. And it's worth really having a thinking, thinking about those answers before you rock up to the event. Uh, uh, and, and because you don't realize how much [01:22:00] time it takes and practice saying it to other people as well.

And that's not because you want to be rigid, but it just gives you that confidence going up. When you're sitting on stage in front of all those people looking at you, you're kind of like, Oh, I know this, you know, it just gives you that, it's, it's that kind of, um, you know, that, you know, what's coming and, and all that kind of thing.

So that's definitely worth doing. And then if you go into events, if you go into like, like, for example, next week, I've been invited to go and speak at a high school. Um, and, um, it's just a 30 minute talk for book week at lunchtime. And so you go, okay, yeah, I can do that. I'll rock up at like 30 minutes. But that, but what you got to remember is that, okay, I'm going to be, what am I going to be talking about?

They've given me some pointers. Okay. That's what I'm going to be talking about. Okay. So these are kids. So I'm going to make a PowerPoint presentation. Okay. So I want it to be this level. You know, it's still, you want to produce quality. You want people to, you know, the kids to have a good time, [01:23:00] be interested.

They don't want me just standing up and being like, like that. So, so, so don't underestimate the preparation time because the PowerPoint presentation that I've put together, I was kind of timing it out of interest, how it would be like, I've done seven hours of work on it so far, you know what I mean? And you think, you think, Oh, for that 30 minutes, it's going to be really quick, but then.

But then, and then on the day, you've got to think, well, it's not just 30 minutes, because you're going to get there half an hour before, by the time you put your traveling, by the time you, you know, that's your afternoon gone. And then if you're not used to, when I was bringing, when Terms of Inheritance came out, you're doing these library events, uh, library events, or talking events at bookstores, or wherever, whatever it is you're doing, but if you're not used to doing it, there's a certain amount of nerves that come with that.

So. So what I would say is don't plan anything else for that day, don't plan, and then don't plan anything for the day after because if you're anything like me, and obviously everyone's different, [01:24:00] you're not all going to be like me, but is that you're in the morning, you're trying to get in that headspace of like what's coming up in that day.

You do the event and you're running on adrenaline and you're having a great time because everyone's just so fabulous and it's exciting and it's, you know, enjoy it. But the next day you'll be totally spent because you're exhausted because you've had a day of nerves and a day of an evening of adrenaline running.

And, and, and, and, but if you go back thinking, okay, I'm going to do 1700 words today, it's not going to be realistic. And even though you're only putting those kind of pressures on yourself. If you keep doing that, it can lead to, it can end up in burnout and that's, and that's not what you want. So I'd say be kind, be kind to yourself and allow more time than you think for the events that are coming up and the podcasts that are coming up and all these different things that you're invited to do and, and make sure it is something that you want to do as well [01:25:00] because um, uh, you know, because, because it does, it does kind of.

Cut into it does take a lot of time because you wanna be rocking up at these events and making, you know, I wanna make sure everyone's having a great time and all those kind of things. So, so just be mindful of that 'cause you can underestimate it. A 30, a 30 minute, uh, rocking up to a school and doing a 30 minute talk is actually probably a good, at least, at least a day, at least two days of.

Working, you know, um, involved beforehand or whatever. So, um, yeah, so that's probably my, my tip and good advice, but also no. Keep it in your head that you're fantastic and that you've worked hard and there's a reason that you are where you are and, uh, and, and go out there and have a great, have a great time and enjoy it because you're going to rock it, baby.

It's going to be great. 

Tina: Oh, thank you so much, Michelle. Oh, that's awesome. Great advice for, for me and for everybody else [01:26:00] who's, who is on their own path. Um, journey. That's right. Yeah. You can do it. Keep going. Do not give up. That's it. It's your own path. It's your own path. And looking forward to finding out how each and every one gets there.

Uh, so lots of hints and tips that you've mentioned and I'm going to pop them all in the show notes so people can easily just link to them and see what we're talking about. Um, thank you so much again, Michelle, and good luck for your book three that you're writing at the moment. I can't wait to hear all about it.

Michelle: Bits of love and uh, all the best when your book comes out. It's going to be super excited and all the best for this fabulous podcast. So I can't be, I can't wait to listen to all the other authors and all the other episodes.