Lisa Kenway on slush pile success, crafting and editing thrillers, and the writing community

In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, hosts Madeleine Cleary and Tina Strachan discuss the challenges and triumphs of writing and editing with their guest, Lisa Kenway, an Australian writer and anesthetist whose debut psychological thriller 'All You Took From Me' was published by Transit Lounge Publishing. The conversation covers topics like the intricacies of balancing writing with a demanding career, the importance of a supportive writing community, experiences with the publishing process, and practical tips for aspiring writers. They also touch on the emotional impacts of pursuing a writing career and maintaining an effective social media presence. With insights from Lisa on how her professional background inspired her novel, the discussion provides an in-depth look at the dedication and perseverance required to succeed as an author.

00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast

00:40 Catching Up with Madeline and Tina

01:17 Writing Between the Cracks

02:48 The Joys and Challenges of First Drafts

07:51 Copy Edits and Historical Fiction

14:42 Top Tips for Writers

18:06 Interview with Lisa Kenway

31:13 Organizing the 2024 Debut Group

32:12 Sharing Drafts and Feedback

34:05 The Journey to Finalizing the Manuscript

34:59 Dealing with Rejections and Feedback

41:49 The Breakthrough Moment

47:07 The Editing Process

55:56 Public Speaking and Book Launches

59:04 Navigating Reviews and Social Media

01:02:26 Future Projects and Final Tips


Links mentioned in this episode

Lisa Kenway

Transit Lounge

The Whole Truth Podcast by Nadia Mahjouri

Emma Schwarcz Freelance Editor

Trove

Printable - Queensland Writers Centre

NaNoWriMo

Scrivener

Jacqueline Bublitz - Before You Knew My Name

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Transcript

Tina: [00:00:00] This is the Book Deal Podcast, a podcast all about inspiring and motivating writers, 

Madeleine: where we interview seasoned and debut authors about their own writing, 

Tina: from the blank page to the book deal and beyond. We hope these stories will help you to stay positive, focused, and carve your own path forward. I'm Madeline Cleary.

Tina: And I'm Tina Strachan. And this is the 

Madeleine: Book Deal Podcast.

Madeleine: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Hi Madeline, how are you? Hey Tina, I'm well, how are you after your crazy, crazy week? Yeah, really good. Yes, really 

Tina: good. Am I? I don't know. No, I am.

Tina: I'm pretty good. I'm surviving. I have had a really big, just sort of editing week, you know, it's different writing to a [00:01:00] deadline, isn't it? It is. It's, um, there's that bit of pressure. I think that's always at the back of your mind of, you know, I can't just warble on for, you know, a thousand, five thousand words.

Tina: I have to, I have to kind of, yeah, try and limit my time. 

Madeleine: Is this your third book that you're working on now? This is book three. Yeah. Yeah. This is exciting. 

Tina: Yeah. But just, you know, lots of other stuff going on. I'm trying to write between the cracks, you know, in the little bits of time that we have. But that's okay.

Tina: I've got a good, um, a good script. I got a good four days of, of focusing in between, um, recording for the podcast, which is super exciting. That's good. Oh, I'm glad to hear it. Wait, when are you doing your four days? What was this about? Oh, now, well, now is one of them. So now is one of my days, but then, you know, I've got the weekend and, um, I've got Monday and these, that's my four days in a row of focus time, um, in between everything else that I have to do, but [00:02:00] that's okay.

Madeleine: Writing Between the Cracks. Writing Between the Cracks. Actually, one of our debut crew members, Nadia Mujuri, she's got a new podcast on this, on motherhood and writing, um, which I've listened to and it's amazing. So it's called The Whole Truth. Um, so yeah, if you're interested in how writers balance writing and motherhood, which is something, Tina, you know all about, Use a podcast plug.

Tina: Yeah, it's a great, it's a great podcast as well. Yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of people are doing it and there's benefits to it and, you know, frustrations to it as well, but it can be done. That's right. So I've spent the week, um, writing something, rewriting stuff that's already written, but you Madeline, I want to ask you about this.

Tina: You, I got a very exciting voicemail from you the other week and, um, I, it truly got my hopes up, like I literally was listening to this voicemail with the biggest smile on my face because you were telling me [00:03:00] about You know, starting to write something new and, um, but, you know, still, you know, kind of fleshing out the characters and not really knowing who is this and where are they going and where's this story that I'm going, not sure in my head.

Tina: I'm like, Oh my God, she is going to ask me to help her plot her next book. Oh my God, this is so exciting. This is my dream. And then you're like, but then I just decided to write it and I solved all my problems and I was like, ah, Oh, I wanted to, I wanted to help plot, but, but so yours, you, you are writing something fresh.

Madeleine: Yes. Um, and so after listening to, like, after listening to you about how to plot and using all the tools and the mathematics behind writing and all those things, and then hearing other writers as well and following Catherine Collette who's like, you know, everyone has to plot at some point if your pants the first draft, you have to plot the rest, and it's like, okay, maybe I can be one of those [00:04:00] writers that's really organized, works out exactly what I'm doing, like who the character is, all the plot holes that I'm just gonna.

Madeleine: Fix them all. It's all going to be good. And I just dug myself into a massive hole. And I just could not focus on what I was trying to do. And so, and I don't know if your writing impacts your mood, but when I'm in like a creative hole, I get really depressed. 

Tina: I get grumpy and frustrated because I want to keep going at it as well, and I can't.

Tina: And I just Yeah. So when I have to go to work and stuff, uh, yeah. 

Madeleine: And it's like this niggling thing in your brain and every spare moment you feel like you're trying to solve this and anything like work, other things, life, that gets in the way. You're just like, can you just leave me alone so I can figure out this puzzle?

Madeleine: It's so, 

Tina: so 

Madeleine: way more important. 

Tina: It's a puzzle. I love that you say that. Cause that's how I. Describe it too. It feels like a puzzle. And sometimes, you know, like my husband will walk into the room and I'll just be [00:05:00] staring at my computer, maybe not typing. So he thinks I'm not doing anything. And he'll start talking to me.

Tina: I'm like, dude, I feel like I'm in the middle of them, like big mathematical equation. And you've just stepped in the middle of it. I almost had You've pulled my, pulled my mind away from it. 

Madeleine: Yes, and you kind of freeze and you're like, you sort of like turn and you're like, please just don't, walk away, walk away, I've still got the thread.

Madeleine: Read my face, 

Tina: it's saying, go away. Yes, I think our husbands are well versed in that, in that facial expression. 

Madeleine: Yes, and my husband is a writer too, so he also goes into that, that zone and I know when I have to try and recognize that. But yes, so, um, I, and the problem with this one as well, because I'm writing another historical fiction and I, even though I said at the very, start of this podcast series that I would never, ever write historical fiction again.

Madeleine: Here I am. 

Tina: Oh, you're a 

Madeleine: sucker. You love it. I just love it. Yeah. This is the idea that popped in onto the train in Transylvania. Very romantic. Yes. And I 

Tina: [00:06:00] have 

Madeleine: to go with 

Tina: that. 

Madeleine: Well, my problem is like, I have this process where I do so much research and I had the idea came first and then I do research. And so I've been reading like so many books, so many articles I've been digging into Trove, I've gathered so much like pages and pages of information, and I'm trying to work And the plot's changing as the information comes, but, uh, and so I was trying to like plot it out and it just wasn't working.

Madeleine: So I thought, well, how about I just try and start writing? So I sat down in 15 minutes, I had 800 words. I had the first part of the first chapter and in that 800 words, I solved all my plot issues. So I just thought, okay, I think this is the way. I write, and there's gonna be issues with it, and so perhaps Catherine is right, that I'll have to go back in the end and plot it all out, but I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna start, I think, and see where it takes me, and yeah, and it's really fun.

Madeleine: I've [00:07:00] forgotten how fun a first draft is. I know some people really hate first drafting, it's like trying to pull a tooth, but I love first drafting. 

Tina: Yeah, I agree, I'm the same. Yeah, I love a first draft too, and I'm just sitting here like, oh, I can't wait to write this. I'm like, you know, I'm looking for, I'm loving what I'm doing now, but it feels so long since I've Just opened up a Word document, or a Scrivner in my case, and just looked at that blank page and gone, Oh, just the first word.

Tina: And it feels like such a big, massive project, massive undertaking, doesn't it? It's just this blank page. Um, but we know that it is. It gets there in the end, and it gets finished. Yes, we've done it before. That feeling, that feeling of those first words on the page is pretty incredible. 

Madeleine: It's so exciting, it's so exciting, and actually I think I've, I think I'm going to continue doing this because I'm now at a stage with the Butterfly Women.

Madeleine: where [00:08:00] it's back with the publisher, copy edits being done. I was very fortunate in that it was a light copy edit. Um, it came, I got it back early. So I, um, actually was able to do it in like a week, um, when I had three weeks. So I feel really, really good. And I think because we'd gone through so many rounds of structural edits, it was in a good.

Madeleine: position. So thankfully that copy edit, that line edit was not as huge as I was kind of expecting it to be, but it wasn't. Um, and so the next stage is just going to be doing the final read through and proof. Um, so I'm, I think, and I've got seven months still until publication date. So I think I'm going to, yeah, try something new, be a bit of fun.

Tina: Yeah. Enjoy that time because it'll start, uh, the closer you get to publication date, the more you're going to have to do lots of other. Bits and pieces in the lead up, probably more than you realize, so yeah, jump on that time that you've got now. This may be only a little bit of downtime for a while. Can you explain, I [00:09:00] think we've touched on copy edits before, but can you explain to the listeners what your copy edits were?

Madeleine: Yes. What that was 

Tina: about? 

Madeleine: Yes, so the lovely, so Emma Schwartz, who's, she's a freelance copy editor, so a firm brought her in to, um, do this and she was just, uh, amazing. Um, she, uh, and I think she's actually available for people who, because she's a freelancer, so if you're ever looking, I think that it's quite expensive, but it might be a worthy investment and she was amazing.

Madeleine: Um, so she has gone line by line. It made it more readable, I think, is the way that she's described it. But with a copy edit, you get a document that's like a Word document. It's locked, so you can't accept any of her tracked changes. It's all in tracked. Then you can either decide to revert that and why you want to revert her change, or, um, make your own change.

Madeleine: So, most of it was, um, really good and definitely improved the readability. And she was also checking for things like consistency and flow and whether there was like a, you know, a [00:10:00] character that shouldn't be there or an issue with the plot. So thankfully that was quite minimal because yeah, it's been through so many of these rounds, but, um, yeah.

Madeleine: And she just provided the most lovely feedback as well. At the start of the book that almost made me cry. Um, which it's, it's, I was explaining to someone, it's so strange because you've probably feel the same. 

Tina: Yeah, it gives you a confidence too, and it's nice, especially to get that feedback from people that are in the industry.

Tina: So, because they know what they're talking about. 

Madeleine: Yeah, it's exciting. And Barbara mentioned, and I think I mentioned in the last podcast, she'd be a historian. She came back with, um, lovely feedback, and she endorsed the book. Um, so I'm just, yeah, feeling good about it. Like, I'm in a really good, good spot. And you sound like you're in a good spot.

Tina: Hey, can I ask, did you, um, pick, uh, did you learn anything from copy edits that you think you'll take with you now through other drafts that you have done? Or was it all, it was just sort of basic? Yeah. 

Madeleine: Oh yeah. Um, so I had no idea, and maybe this is a [00:11:00] rookie error, how to spell the word. So this is the, the verb practice.

Madeleine: in Australia? 

Tina: Mm-Hmm. . 

Madeleine: Mm-Hmm. with an S. Mm-Hmm. Not a c. Mm-Hmm. . So P-R-A-C-T-I-S-E. But the noun is practice with a c. 

Tina: Oh. Did you know that? Because I didn't. I don't know if I knew that. It's one of those things that you just naturally kind of type 

Madeleine: and whatever happens, happens. Practice. In the US, they use practice with a C for both, noun and verb.

Madeleine: But in Australia, it's with an S, so there's like a little, little thing, but I learned so much from, I think, this, um, Uh, I tend not to use semicolons much in my prose, but I think, um, and, and it's gone in insert some, and actually it does improve readability, so I might, look at investigating that more, but I tend to just avoid them.

Madeleine: I don't know, do you? 

Tina: Yeah, semi colons confuse me a little bit. I'm like, do I put one in here or I don't put [00:12:00]one in here? So I tend, I tend to avoid as well, but I agree. My last edits came through with a couple put in and I was like, oh yeah, that does, that probably did make it a bit better. But yeah, I'm never, they're, they're one that I sort of am a little unsure of.

Madeleine: Yes, at least you know when a copy editor paid professional cut has done it. It's correct. 

Tina: I'll take note. Yeah, that's right. Um, I have another question because I, I definitely do me. Yeah, it's all you. This is a, this is an interview for you. Um, I, I don't write historical fiction, obviously, so I want to know what Trove is.

Tina: Can you explain that to me and to other Oh, Trove. Yes. Trove is the best resource, um, ever. I'm assuming it's in a horror, historical fiction thing, right? It's not something that I should know as 

Madeleine: an author, is it? I mean, you should use it if you're ever, but it's not for writers, like it's for everyone. Yeah.

Madeleine: So it's run by the National Library of Australia, so yeah. Canberra, um, and it's an [00:13:00] online site which we just digitized, um, newspaper articles from like the beginning and you can, it has an amazing search function. You can look up newspaper articles from whatever you are, anytime in Australia. Um, and not just newspapers, but print and other, other sort of sources as well, and it's all free.

Madeleine: Oh wow, I was just going to ask you, surely there's a subscription to that? No, it's free, and they actually had cut funding, so former government cut funding, new government came in, uh, and has renewed and reinstated the funding for Trove because it is just incredible resource, not just for writers, for historians, for people who are just interested.

Madeleine: So you can look up Trove. Anything. So I have used this immensely in, um, for the butterfly women research, um, cause I just like to read newspapers from the day and get a, like, we're just talking about vibes before I like to get a vibe of what, what people are thinking and talking about from that era. 

Tina: Yeah, absolutely.

Tina: I can imagine that is something that helps you immerse yourself in the world. Doesn't it? When you're writing about it, that's awesome. [00:14:00] I'm literally have just brought it up now and I'm going to search. 

Madeleine: Yeah, it's amazing. So this is how we discovered our family history. And this is what I've used for my book, um, and my great, great, great book.

Madeleine: Grandmother and her infamous women, they feature very much in Trove, but for all the wrong reasons, so, um. 

Tina: But it's such a great advertisement for your book, I have to say. Very. 

Madeleine: So yeah, it's great. Definitely. That's my top tip. Use Trove if you're writing historical fiction or just even just interested in, like, getting an insight into what people are talking about in newspapers of the day.

Madeleine: Use Trove. 

Tina: Good advice. Good 

Madeleine: top tip. What's your top tip? 

Tina: My top tip is something related to Something that we just spoke about a little bit in our agent interview that will be coming up in a few weeks about using social media [00:15:00] and not just using social media but having an online presence and I and it's It just happened to be very topical that I got an email through, because I'm a member of the Queensland Writers Centre, and they are just running another program this year that I did a couple of years ago.

Tina: It's called Printable, and it's an author branding program. And for me it was incredible, uh, because I had just sort of, took little baby steps into the world of Instagram to build an author profile. And, uh, I had, um, Allie Blake there, who at the time had written over 40 books for, um, Mills and Boone. Wow.

Tina: She's an incredible author, and she has an amazing online profile. And also Stacey McEwen, who wrote, uh, Ledge, and she has a huge TikTok following, so. You know, whether you like TikTok or don't like TikTok, or social media, or whatever, and [00:16:00] I mean, that's who was there a few years ago, um, I'm not sure if they have, uh, if it's just internals that are running it this year, but it was just the most incredible information about not just, you know, how to be on TikTok and create a presence, but also branding as well.

Tina: Like, um, how to, which I found incredibly interesting and you can take all of it on board or just a little bit, but even just when you're creating a website, just talking about how to make it have a look and a feel and a vibe. Um, or even if you are trying to plan a, uh, author, very focused Instagram or social media account, things that you could do to create a presence.

Tina: I guess. And to find out what your brand is also. Um, yeah, I think it was just really helpful for me. And not only did I learn lots of, um, good tips there, uh, at the printable program, I, because it was a whole, a room full of lots of other authors who were, you know, you know, starting out as well, a lot of them, [00:17:00] and all starting out to create their own.

Tina: you know, a bit of an online presence or, you know, find out what their brand is. From all different ages, I still have some really good contacts from that day. It was only one day, but you know, you're all there for the same thing. So you're all connecting. It's just another way to be part of the community and, you know, make some contacts and, you know.

Madeleine: That's so great. So it's in person, in Brisbane? 

Tina: Yep. Yep. It's at the library in Brisbane. And, um, which is where the Queensland Writer's Centre offices are as well. So, um, yep. So that's my, my top tip is to check that out from Queensland Writer's Centre. And 

Madeleine: if you're a, if you're a Queensland writer, that's a great top tip.

Madeleine: We can put that in our show notes links to that. That's, I don't think you have to be, Oh, you can do it online. Oh, brilliant. Yes. 

Tina: Yep, you can do it online. So, um, zoom in. Yeah, it was really awesome. That's my top tip. Anyway, I better get back to edits, and you better get back to writing your new your new [00:18:00]stuff.

Madeleine: Very exciting. Thanks, Tina. Aw, thanks, Madeline. Bye. Lisa Kenway is an Australian writer and anesthetist, and yes, I practice how to say that last word for this interview. Her debut psychological thriller, All You Took From Me, was published in August 2024 by Transit Lounge Publishing. All You Took From Me was long listed for the 2020 Richelle Prize and was runner up in the 2022 CYA Conference Competition for Adult Work.

Madeleine: Her short fiction and creative non fiction pieces have appeared in multiple journals and anthologies. Lisa is a wonderful industry citizen, championing Australian debut writers in her fabulous newsletters and captaining the debut crew for this year. Lisa's journey to publication is one of strength and perseverance, and just like her debut novel, full of twists and turns.

Madeleine: I hope you enjoy this.

Madeleine: Lisa Kenway, welcome to the book deal podcast. 

Lisa Kenway: Oh, thanks for having me, Madeline. It's such a thrill. 

Madeleine: Oh, we're so happy to have you on and uh, your debut novel, All You Took From Me, which I have in my hand, um, was just released this past month, though this is the month of August. Have you been able to take a breath yet?

Lisa Kenway: I, yeah, I have. I am, I'm back at work now and I've sort of paced out my events a bit, so there's still quite a few coming up, but um, there's sort of, The intensity has eased a little bit. There's still a lot of activity.

Madeleine: Yeah, for sure. How's it been transitioning back to work after all the craziness? 

Lisa Kenway: Well, I did take about two and a half weeks off and I recommend that if you can swing it, um, because.

Lisa Kenway: I think it's just really hard to, um, you've got a lot of emotions to cope with. You're busy. Um, and just even just dealing with social media feels like a full time job. Um, I can't imagine working as well. I don't know if people do it, but I think I would have just not been switched on to work. So, but by the time I got to that sort of mid August and back to work, I was ready for it.

Lisa Kenway: I only worked part time. I think I just needed to get out of my head and back into some normal routine. So yeah, it's, it's good. It does, um, restrict what I can say yes to, but, um, I think, you know, trade off is worth it. Getting back to a bit of normality is good because the book is really important and amazing and so exciting, but it's not my whole world and it's not my whole life.

Madeleine: Oh, for sure. And I can't wait to explore more about that as well. And, you know, such an intense time, I think. So it's nice to find that sense of normality for sure. Um, talking about your book, are you able, I'm sure you're very well practiced at this, are you able to give us the pitch of all you took from me?

Lisa Kenway: Absolutely. So all you took from me is a psychological thriller that's set between the Blue Mountains and a fictional Sydney hospital. And it follows the story of Claire Carpenter, who's an anesthetist who wakes from a coma after a serious car accident to discover that not only has she lost her husband, Ray, she's also lost most of her memories from the last few months.

Lisa Kenway: And then after being discharged from hospital, she also realizes she's got a stranger following her and she just doesn't know who this guy is or what he wants from her. And a little while later, still dealing with memory loss and still grieving her husband, she gets back to work, where on questioning patients, she starts to suspect that an anesthetic drug might help her access those missing memories.

Lisa Kenway: But there's no way she can be certain about that without putting her life and her job at risk. But these Threats, unexplained threats escalate, the stalker doesn't want to leave her alone. She starts to fear for her life and she thinks, well, maybe I'll need to go to extreme lengths to learn the whole truth about her secretive husband, his connection to this mysterious club that she has hazy memories of and who this man is who's following her and what he wants from her.

Lisa Kenway: But the question is, how far is she willing to go? 

Madeleine: Oh, Lisa, what a pitch. That's fantastic. And we were just talking before recording as well. You really did put Claire, your main character, in through the ringer. Um, can you tell us a little bit of inspiration? There's some personal experiences that you're bringing to this book.

Lisa Kenway: Oh, well, I wouldn't say there were personal experiences so much as fascinations. Um, but I do work as an anesthetist and back in 2017, I was sitting in an anesthetic conference. It was actually about research into depth of anesthesia. And my mind started wandering. I started thinking about how little we really understand about how these.

Lisa Kenway: Anesthetic drugs all come together to affect consciousness. Um, of course we know how they work, you know, how each individual drug works. Um, but we don't really understand consciousness itself. Um, and this research suggested that there were probably different planes of consciousness. And, you know, that a small percentage of patients might actually be able to respond to commands with a squeeze of the hand under anesthetic and have no recollection of it afterwards.

Lisa Kenway: And they coined a term, or someone, one of the researchers coined the term connected consciousness, which I found really fascinating, um, from the point of view of an, of a writer, I could see all sorts of possibilities for a story, um, perhaps. Exploring reliability of memory and consciousness through the eyes of an anesthetist.

Madeleine: Oh, so interesting and I think it's just fascinating how you get those sparks of inspiration, probably in times when you don't expect it. Is this the first book idea that you had or had you come up with some other interesting ideas before? 

Lisa Kenway: Oh, I had a whole other. Um, manuscript that I'd written and briefly tried to, um, get published before realizing that it, it probably was my learner novel that was never going to get published.

Lisa Kenway: So I had written a whole other novel. I'd, I'd written short fiction, um, flash fiction. A little bit of poetry and then I, um, I think this was the second big, big idea that I had and it took me some months of pondering it and, and having characters come into my head and batting them away because I, I just didn't, even back then after having written a whole other novel, I didn't feel like I had the skills yet to tackle it.

Lisa Kenway: I was a little bit scared by this story, which seemed to be quite complicated and suspenseful. So, 

Madeleine: Hmm. So how do you go then from having that sort of, I don't have the skills to write this to getting to the point where you're starting on the draft zero? 

Lisa Kenway: Um, a couple of things came together. I think I, I was, I remember vividly being at, um, breakfast with my husband and telling him about this idea I had for a story and essentially giving him a pitch, which was a lot less polished than the one I gave you earlier.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and his eyes lit up and he said, that sounds great. You should write that. Um, and I thought, Oh, well, maybe there is something there, you know, maybe it's not such a crazy idea, but I was still scared. So I, um, decided to do NaNoWriMo. 

Madeleine: Oh, amazing. Uh, 

Lisa Kenway: just to kind of kickstart the manuscript that I was scared to write.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and so in the lead up to that, I did a lot more planning. 

Madeleine: Could you explain what, could you explain what NaNoWriMo is to anyone that doesn't? Yeah. Yeah. 

Lisa Kenway: So NaNoWriMo is.

Lisa Kenway: Um, it's, it's something that happens every November. I think it's fallen into, uh, under a little bit of a cloud because there was some problems with the organizers and, um, predatory behavior. I think that came out a year or two ago. So I don't want to, don't want to, I'm not, I don't want to condone it in the organization in any way, but it's essentially a do it yourself sort of thing and, Groups form to cheer each other on and try and write 50, 000 words in the month of November, 

Madeleine: which 

Lisa Kenway: is, I think something like 1, 667 words a day or something crazy, which is not what I usually, it's not how I usually work.

Lisa Kenway: Um, but I just thought I'd give it a go for the first time that was back in 2017. So that's how long ago I started this manuscript. Um, and it worked for me because I didn't second guess myself because I had to have a bit of a plan, a bit of a structure to. To be able to get those words down for me, 

Madeleine: um, 

Lisa Kenway: and I got those first 50, 000 words down.

Lisa Kenway: And then it took me the rest of the year to write the rest of it. But I had enough that I, that I, that I got her to the past, the sort of soggy metal part. And I knew that I had a story that was a novel. 

Madeleine: I just had 

Lisa Kenway: to work from there. 

Madeleine: So in the novel, All You Took From Me, we see Claire, who's an anaesthetist like yourself, and her role, her job sounds very, very busy and demanding.

Madeleine: I'm assuming you also have a very busy and demanding job. So how do you balance your personal life with writing, you know, 50, 000 words in a month and then continuing to progress that? 

Lisa Kenway: Yeah. The 50, 000 words in a month was a challenge. Um, I took a little bit of leave and went on a retreat with my writing group for, um, about a week or five days or something.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and that helped a lot. Um, I just got up early, like I'd get up at 5. 00 AM and write for an hour before going to work and then do a bit more later if I hadn't met my word count. Um, I am fortunate That I've reached the point in my career and my kids are older and that I'm, that I'm working pretty much half time.

Lisa Kenway: So I do two and a half days, most weeks. Um, I mean, obviously there's after hours, um, on call and so on, but it's not as onerous as Claire's load. I'm not full time. Um, so I, I just. Use the gaps in my week, you know, when the kids were little, I would write at the pool while they were having their swimming lessons.

Lisa Kenway: I'd have my laptop out in the sort of, you know, chlorine atmosphere, inspirational. You just make it work, don't you? I don't watch much TV. 

Madeleine: I've heard that's a common trait among writers, not, not watching Netflix. Yeah, 

Lisa Kenway: that's right. I just, I just have to do, um, I have to just read and write in that time. 

Madeleine: So you've mentioned, so NaNoWriMo brought out a bit of community and cheering each other on.

Madeleine: You've also, you've just mentioned that you've got a writers group as well. So how did you find that community of people in your, where you are, where you're located? And how, what advice would you have for people who want to find a similar writing community? 

Lisa Kenway: I think it's, it's so important, um, to have people around you that know, that understand and know what you're going through, but I know it's also hard to find the right people.

Lisa Kenway: Um, it just takes time. I would say social media, Was instrumental for me, um, but it built up very slowly. So I think a lot of the people I met through, um, groups around who like writing groups on Facebook, um, I live in on the central coast. So it's regional, it's, it's, you know, it's a little bit of a hike from Sydney.

Lisa Kenway: Um, which. It feels like a bit of a disadvantage sometimes because it's not easy to get down to courses and, and, um, events in Sydney, but in some ways it's an advantage because my writing group is very tight writing group and we found each other because we realized through social media. That we recognized that beach, hang on a minute, maybe they live near me and we sort of reached out to each other and, and found each other that way, but we were like, at least three of us were friends on social media initially.

Lisa Kenway: And then the others, we just kind of knew each other through friends of friends or whatever. It just took time for us to all find each other and to find people that we clicked with, that we got on with. But we were all serious about writing and that we all wanted the same things out of the group. Um, and it's not my first attempt at forming a writers group.

Lisa Kenway: I've done it before and we just didn't all want the same things. And we ended up Drifting apart. Um, but once you find your people, it's really, that's what gets you through the highs and lows, but online works too. I've certainly shared manuscripts with other writers in other States that I've got on really well with, and we've only ever interacted online, but that just takes a little longer to build up that trust.

Lisa Kenway: I think. 

Madeleine: Hmm. Well, we should talk about the debut crew as well. 2024. Um, you are the founder. I believe of the debut crew. Is that correct for this year? 

Lisa Kenway: Yes. Um, only because I, uh, looked around at what the 2023 group we're doing and thought, I don't know if there is one for 2024 yet. Um, and I was kind of volunteered into, um, organizing the 2024 group, but I'm really grateful that that happened.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and I just put the call out on social media, see if anyone else. It's interesting. And turns out they were there's actually over 80 of us in the group now. 

Madeleine: I can't believe that. Isn't it amazing though, that there's 80 debuts in Australia this year. Like that's wonderful. 

Lisa Kenway: Well, I mean, some of them are also in your group, I think because some of them have had updates, pushbacks, but they're still in our group as well, you know.

Lisa Kenway: Yeah, absolutely. We're, we're very open armed. and we don't have very specific Strict criteria for entry. And we take all comers who have a book coming out this year. 

Madeleine: Yeah, that's amazing. Um, so just going back to, so you, you've got that first draft and you've got your writing group. Is your writing group the first one that you share that initially with, or is it your husband who sounds like you're also invested in giving the ideas and your first 

Lisa Kenway: draft?

Lisa Kenway: Uh, I do, I do give it to my husband, but he's not great at feedback. He won't be listening to this. That's okay. How so? Oh, he's, he's a mixture of not being critical and, um, uh, specific enough about what he likes. And also sometimes being too critical. Um, it's, it's, you know, the sort of feedback you want is the sort of feedback that Really avid readers of your genre or other writers will give you.

Lisa Kenway: So yes, I do. He is probably my first reader because I, you know, it's useful for him to know what I'm working on, but, um, I do share it with my writing group, but I just space it out. So I, they're all busy people and they don't always have time to read a whole manuscript. Um, so I tend to kind of share it with one or two and then get feedback from them.

Lisa Kenway: And then apply it and then perhaps show the next version of the draft when I've done as much as I can to someone else in the group. So I don't, um, double up for anybody. 

Madeleine: Um, 

Lisa Kenway: super helpful, fresh eyes on it. I think that's, that's what I've worked out over the years. That's, That's a good way. First book I sent out to everybody I knew who could read just about, all my friends, family.

Lisa Kenway: Um, they said some lovely things and there was useful feedback that came back, but I think you can get too many opinions as well. Um, so yeah, you need to, it's really great if you can find your good readers who can give you really constructive feedback. 

Madeleine: Yeah, I totally agree. So when did you know All You Took From Me?

Madeleine: And was this the original title as well? I should, I should ask. When you first dropped 

Lisa Kenway: it, it's hard to remember what the original title was. I don't think it had a title when I started doing it for NaNoWriMo. It certainly didn't have one that stuck. Um, the title came when I wrote it, when I wrote those words in the manuscript.

Lisa Kenway: I remember that moment. Yes. Instantly there's the title, 

Madeleine: but so 

Lisa Kenway: it's almost magical how that comes to you. Sometimes I've had other ones where I've known the title straight away before I started, 

Madeleine: but 

Lisa Kenway: if I don't know it before I start. It takes a little while for me to hit on it. I thought the publisher would want to change it.

Lisa Kenway: That was my title. Uh, and he said, no, actually I like 

Madeleine: it. I think it makes sense in the, if you, we won't give any spoilers, but yes, it does make sense. So how did you know then when the manuscript was ready to send out? 

Lisa Kenway: I wish I had known, uh, I don't know how, I don't know if I'll ever know, really. Uh, I had gone through several rounds with beta readers and applied feedback.

Lisa Kenway: I had paid for a structural edit. With a really good freelance editor because it's because it's a thriller. I hadn't written a thriller before the pacing was something that I hadn't quite got right. And she helped me enormously with the structure to get the pacing right. And, uh, and so I was fairly confident with that.

Lisa Kenway: Uh, but then when I started sending it out, I was, I was getting rejections and rejections with feedback. Which was great. Personalized rejections are great, but obviously they weren't feedback that then they didn't want to see it again. So I felt like I was burning a lot of bridges and getting that feedback.

Lisa Kenway: I don't know how else I could have got. The feedback may be with another paid edit or something, but I'm not sure. I felt like I'd done as much as I could. I was moving commas around. I couldn't see what else to do. I'd got a several other eyes on it. And, um, at some point you just have to accept that it's not perfect, but it's as good as you can get it and start sending it out.

Lisa Kenway: So that's what I did. 

Madeleine: And then 

Lisa Kenway: as I got. Personalized rejections, I would then apply, well mostly apply that feedback if it, if it show with me and then send it out again. 

Madeleine: Did you get conflicting feedback? 

Lisa Kenway: Uh, I, uh, a little bit. Um, early in the piece, most of the feedback was good, was, it, it rung true with me and I applied it.

Lisa Kenway: You know, I had one agent tell me, she only read the first few chapters. She didn't want to read the full manuscript, but she said, I think for a thriller, it needs to get going straight away. And that was really useful because, um, I wrote an extra. The opening chapter, I think I wrote after I got that feedback, 

Madeleine: right.

Madeleine: And I found that to be a very compelling opening. Very, very compelling. 

Lisa Kenway: Yeah. When it got long listed for the retail prize, that wasn't part of it. So that, that was came after that, that opening. And that was in response to feedback from an agent. Um, I had other feedback from an editor at a publisher who was interested, a commissioning editor and essentially did a revise and resubmit.

Lisa Kenway: With me, so she gave me what was essentially a one page developmental edit, um, with really useful feedback. She wanted after her feedback, I put in more. Backstory about Claire and Ray and their relationship just to show what so that the reader would feel that loss more because he, you know, it's not a spoiler.

Lisa Kenway: He dies in the car accident that puts Claire in hospital. So he is not part of the story in the present timeline, but. She was absolutely right that I needed to put in a little bit more backstory that showed the development of their relationship and what their relationship was like, so that the reader would feel that grief with Claire.

Lisa Kenway: So that was one really useful early piece of feedback. Unfortunately, She couldn't get it through the acquisition meeting, so after several months, it was a no, but it improved the manuscript enormously, and then I just kept, kept going, sending it out from there, but I did have one publisher give me feedback that I chose not to apply.

Lisa Kenway: And that was, um, he, he said, well, there's nothing wrong with it. This was late in the piece. He said, it's just not for us. It's not what we're looking for. Um, you know, I can't really give you anything useful except, oh, maybe you could take the crime elements out.

Lisa Kenway: Now, I, I suppose I, I could have taken the crime elements out, would have been a completely different book. 

Madeleine: Goodness. Um, and how many, how long was this going on for where you were going back and forth with different agents and publishers? 

Lisa Kenway: Uh, about three years. 

Madeleine: Three years. 

Lisa Kenway: Oh goodness. Yes. So I think. In part, I, um, I don't know that the manuscript was quite where it needed to be when I started sending it out.

Lisa Kenway: It was, it was, I'd done as much as I could, but, um, it's developed a lot since then, the story. But in part, I think perhaps that time was because of the bad timing, trying to send out a novel. Yes, it was early 2020 when I was ready to start sending the book out and the publishing industry kind of froze, COVID hit, the only books they were looking for were upmarket fiction, uplifting fiction.

Lisa Kenway: They certainly weren't very interested in a dark thriller set partly in hospitals. 

Madeleine: Of course. 

Lisa Kenway: So, although nobody said that to me outright, I'm fairly certain looking back with re in retrospect, that there just wasn't an appetite for this sort of story really. 

Madeleine: How, how did you stay, sort of how, you know, it's, it's a really tough thing to be constantly going through this for three years.

Madeleine: So how do you stay motivated when you're going through that? 

Lisa Kenway: Well, that's where your, um, network of other writers comes in or did for me. I had another project on the go, another, I started another novel. I was doing small things like sending out more little short stories and, um, creative nonfiction and things that gave me a sense of.

Lisa Kenway: Some accomplishment added to the CV when they got published and, and I didn't feel like I was stagnating completely because I was working on other things. I think that that's important. If you do want to be a writer that, that you don't just send your work out and wait for replies and not do something else because it would, it would just kill you writing.

Lisa Kenway: You know, the silence, the rejections, you know, it's not healthy. So I think for me working on something else and just having my, my little posse of writers who I could go for a walk with, who I could message and ring up when things weren't going well and just talk through my options or just. Offload. Yeah.

Lisa Kenway: You need to find your people. 

Madeleine: Yeah. That community is amazing. So, you did get a yes though. I did. Amazing. Spoilers everyone.

Madeleine: Tell us about that moment. 

Lisa Kenway: Oh my goodness. I think no other moment since then has quite reached the height of getting that email offer. Um, I had almost given up on getting this manuscript picked up by a traditional publisher. Um, it was early 2023. I had just had another near miss, uh, with a UK publisher who was sort of expressed an interest and then didn't make an offer.

Lisa Kenway: And I, I had decided that I would just let the ones I'd sent out play out and then maybe let that manuscript go for a bit. But two things happened. I had lined up a developer, the same editor, freelance editor who worked on All You Took From Me back early in the piece. I'd lined her up to do a structural edit on my next book.

Lisa Kenway: And in the email exchange, she said to me, I still think about your Manuscript, you know, years later, I, it's still stuck with me. I thought it was so, it was one of the most interesting books I've worked on and I'm really surprised no one has picked it up. And to get that from a, a freelance editor who works with all of the publishers made me think, well, actually maybe, maybe there is something worth pursuing still after three years.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and at about the same time or shortly thereafter, my friend Donna Cameron signed a contract with Transit Lounge. Um, that was arranged by her agent. Um, but I'd read Donna's book because we're in the same writer's group and I knew that although it's literary, it is a pacey literary read with a sort of a thriller, um, plot through it as well.

Lisa Kenway: So I took another look at Transit Lounge's book. I had written them off as too literary to be interested in my book and periodically they're open and they happen to be open at that time for open for submissions. And in addition to literary fiction, there was a specific mention of looking for upmarket genre, such as psychological thrillers.

Madeleine: Yes. I'm 

Lisa Kenway: sure that wasn't on the website last time, the previous time I'd looked. So I sent the whole manuscript off in an email with no expectations because I had reached that point where I thought it's just not going to happen, but you know, I had two little pushes and I thought I'll send it off.

Lisa Kenway: Anyway, I then went up to do a solo writing retreat. I went away by myself to get totally stuck into the structural edit of the next one, because I had totally shifted my focus onto that. I'm like, right. Well, that one's not going to, all you took from me is not going to happen. I will just shift focus to the next one.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and I, I'd spent a few days working just by myself up in the blue mountains, ironically. Um, and I was a little bit. Exhausted, but you know, that happy, creative, exhausted that you, that you get when you've been fully immersed in a project. And I opened up my emails and it was just over two weeks since I'd sent my full manuscript to their slush pile.

Lisa Kenway: That's crazy. And it was an offer. I know. And I was just, I couldn't believe it. I read it about six times. Maybe I read the whole email through and through and through. And I'm like, no way. And then I got on the phone to my husband because I'm by myself. And by the time he answered the phone, I was sobbing.

Lisa Kenway: I was incoherent. I was just like, he's like, what's wrong? He thought something awful had happened. I'm like, what? Um, and I got, finally got the words out. I'm like, someone wants to publish my novel! Um, yeah, so I was just So happy, but yeah, I couldn't believe it. I'm saying nice things about my book after all this time and, you 

Madeleine: know, making an offer.

Madeleine: This is the slush pile as well. Like this is a rare thing where you get an offer after just two weeks. I know. 

Lisa Kenway: And, um, my publisher, Barry Scott came up from Melbourne to my launch and he, he said he'd gone over those figures and he thinks that was a record. Like it was a record that two or three of them had read it in that time and discussed it and decided that they, that they wanted to publish it.

Lisa Kenway: Just has to be the right person at the right time. Um, you have to do the work, but there's so much luck involved as well. 

Madeleine: That's right. That's right. Well, I'm so, so glad that Barry did say yes. So a lot of the Debu crew for this year, we're starting to go through the editing cycle now with our own manuscripts.

Madeleine: How did you find, so after you say yes, because you're saying how much work goes into that, there's also a lot of work that goes into it before leading up to publication. So how was that experience? 

Lisa Kenway: I, um, I had the most amazing editor, um, yeah, uh, but you have to remember that I, that I was going into another structural edit after spending, oh, three years essentially pitching, editing, pitching, editing, and then a year before that of editing.

Lisa Kenway: And I, I was, yeah, I was like, wasn't sure if I could do it. Um, initially, but of course, I was willing to do anything to get that book out. I think when, when he made the offer, um, Barry said something along the lines of, I'm just not a hundred percent certain about the ending. Are you open to doing more editing?

Lisa Kenway: Of course I was, but then he couldn't put his finger on what it was that was bothering him about it. So he got the, uh, my editor, Kate Goldsworthy to have a look at it. And she came back with the book. Just three things she wanted me to work on. Um, but once I fixed those three things, everything fell into place.

Lisa Kenway: So, I mean, after all the structural work I'd done, she could identify the things that needed work still. And in a lot to, I think to a large extent, they were things that crime readers expect. In a crime novel, because rather than taking the crime elements out, I needed to add more crime elements in. So, um, I had to make the ending a much bigger twist and more satisfying.

Lisa Kenway: Um, I, and that involves, yeah, so the whole new, whole new ending, essentially, um, I added 10, 000 words. I added red herrings. I went back and added red herrings because there weren't quite enough of those. Um, And then there was certain, a certain, um, character relationship arcs that needed to be tightened up and in so doing, I solved a few problems with the plot, you know, those, you know, those things that you kind of know on a subconscious level aren't quite perfect, but you can't figure out how to fix them.

Lisa Kenway: So you think they're probably good enough and nobody will notice. Well, Kate noticed. 

Madeleine: The skills, the skills of editors. Yes, never, never leave a stone unturned. 

Lisa Kenway: Yeah, but, um, there was a point in the structural editing where I was concerned that I'd broken the manuscript and I wasn't sure if I, if it was all going to come together, um, and work, but then it, it, it's almost like magic and then something clicked and it all fell into place and it was so much better for the work that I'd done.

Lisa Kenway: But you just kind of need to trust the process. 

Madeleine: That is something I think that is so important. Tina and I were discussing this, uh, talking about reassuring oneself. You always find a solution. It might appear that something is completely broken, but if you take a step away, go for a walk, make a cup of tea, something happens in that time.

Madeleine: Do you, do you agree? It's walking for me 

Lisa Kenway: every time I have to go for a walk if I'm stuck. And then almost every time. I'll figure it out. Yeah. It's amazing. Just getting outside, walking, nothing, I don't listen to podcasts or anything when I'm doing that. I just, I just try and let my mind wander and it's amazing what the subconscious can do.

Madeleine: Oh, for sure. And are you a plotter or a pantser? 

Lisa Kenway: I'm probably somewhere in between. I like to know. Plantser. 

Madeleine: I 

Lisa Kenway: think they call it. Plancer. Maybe I'm a plancer. I don't know. I'm probably more on the plotting spectrum of the plancers because I just like to plot out the main turning points, um, climax. And then I do plot out each scene with just a line or two on Scrivener, um, or index cards and then Scrivener.

Madeleine: I still haven't gotten into Scrivener. Like everyone tells me I need to use it. 

Lisa Kenway: I don't do, I probably only use like 20 percent of the functions functionality of Scrivener I think, but I find it really useful for being able to move scenes around and, and see the whole thing, but I'm not very good with words.

Lisa Kenway: So maybe I'm sure you can do a lot in word if you know how to do it. But 

Madeleine: yeah, 

Lisa Kenway: Scrivener works for me. 

Madeleine: I'd say as well, most crime or thriller writers, are they plotters? Do you think it doesn't help being able to plot out those red herrings and those plot twists? 

Lisa Kenway: Well, I think they're all different. Some of them don't plot anything and they just, I don't know how they do it, but I think no, I think I do know how they do it.

Lisa Kenway: I think they just have to go back and do a lot of work in the editing because a lot of those red herrings I did plant really laid in the piece. 

Madeleine: And 

Lisa Kenway: then you just have to go do the work and go through the whole thing and make sure that it all falls into place and it all makes sense. 

Madeleine: Yes. Because one change can have a ripple effect throughout the story as well.

Madeleine: It's not just retrofitting and inserting, you have to do the full, the full read through, don't you? Yeah, that's right. Um, so I guess when, when you did sign that contract and you went through that process in the lead up to publication, was there anything that you'd wish that you knew beforehand?

Lisa Kenway: Oh, there's probably so much I didn't know beforehand. I think that's, that's the benefit of being in something like the debut career, because although all our experiences. Are different and all our publishers are different sizes and all our books are different genres and we don't know, no two of us will have had the same experience.

Lisa Kenway: We've all learned a lot from each other about what to expect and maybe what to not expect. Um, so the thing that I did gain from the debut crew, we did have a few experienced authors talk to us early in the piece and give us tips. About things like, um, what the publisher won't necessarily do for you. And that includes things like pitching you for festivals and events.

Lisa Kenway: Um, certainly I'm with a small publisher and I, um, and I knew fairly early in the piece what would be done for me and what wouldn't. But even if you're with a big publisher, Unless you're a lead title, you may not get much support for organizing events. You might not, you might get put forward for festivals on a long list of other authors, and you might not, you know, have pitching for festivals is a bit like pitching your book 

Madeleine: you need 

Lisa Kenway: to, or to an agent, you need to tell them what you can bring to them.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and. Perhaps if you're a mid list debut author, you're, you know, your publisher might not do that for you. So I think knowing this to some extent did give me the ability to, um, or the confidence. myself out there and pitch myself for a few things like that. But, you know, there's certainly. Other things that I wasn't aware I would need to organize for myself.

Lisa Kenway: And I've just found that along the way. 

Madeleine: Well, that's really helpful. I think. Um, and yeah, definitely something that we're all trying to grapple with as well. We want to know what, what, how can we make our publishers lives easier without stepping on toes? I think. And, and in the end though, you have to be an advocate for your own book as well out in that industry.

Lisa Kenway: You do. Um, but you, you know, I think, don't be afraid to ask questions of your publisher as well about what their expectations are and what. And what they're planning to do for the book and what you can do as well. 

Madeleine: I've been actually loving since your launch, watching all the things and activities that you've been doing.

Madeleine: So I guess I'd love to hear a little bit about what it felt like during your launch, which was only less than a month ago. Um, and then you've, you know, I've seen you're in readers festivals and writers festivals. So tell us about some of those experiences. Oh, 

Lisa Kenway: it's. It's so amazing to get asked to go on the stage and talk about your book, um, in a room full of interested readers, like, it's, it's extraordinary.

Lisa Kenway: How lucky are we to get to do this? Um, so I, um, I am not something, someone who was comfortable with public speaking. Um, so I went out of my way to upskill, if you like, so that I'd be able to take advantage of those opportunities. So I joined Toastmasters about a year ago and I've sort of intermittently been doing that.

Lisa Kenway: And just for confidence, you know, it helps enormously just doing something. You can't get better at it without doing it. So I did. Want to lean into doing those events. And so I prepared myself for that. Um, the launch though, the launch was, I had two launches. I have one launch in Sydney with Ashley Collegium Blunt, and then I had a launch on the central coast with Anna Downs.

Lisa Kenway: Who's in my writer's group as well. Honestly, they were both just pure joy. There was lots of family and friends in the audience and, and. If you can organize a launch, do it because it is so much fun. 

Madeleine: I've heard it described as it's like your wedding day, but just for yourself. 

Lisa Kenway: Oh yes, that's true actually.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and it is a bit of stress leading up to it, just like the wedding. I was trying to organize cupcakes with books on them because. Troy Hunter told me, Oh, everyone wants the cupcakes with the book covers on them. And I left it a bit late. I was frantically on the online trying to organize book covers, driving all over town to pick up cupcakes, but 

Madeleine: it was so worth it.

Madeleine: Amazing. Amazing. Um, so I'm just interested in terms of like getting to know all the different authors and, you know, being behind the scenes and festivals. Do you get to be part of like, is there any goss from the green room? Like, what are people talking about? 

Lisa Kenway: Oh, what goes on tour stays on tour. I thought I'd try and ask.

Lisa Kenway: Um, I've done a sum total of one festival so far, so I'm no expert. And I didn't even get the food in the green room looked absolutely delicious at Mudgee. But, um, by the time I finished my sessions, we were being ushered out because it was the end of the day. So I didn't get to try the brownies. I know, I know.

Lisa Kenway: But, um, I think. Festivals are fantastic. If you get invited to them, it's, it is such an honor, but it's also a lot of fun. Just. Um, going to breakfast with other authors and chatting to, um, it's great for networking, um, with other authors. I think interestingly, the more, um, authors I chatted to, the more I found commonalities in terms of, you know, that struggle to get published in the first place.

Lisa Kenway: The, uh, you know, my story is not that uncommon. Of taking years to get there. 

Madeleine: No, that's right. That's very, very common. You know, 

Lisa Kenway: having a lot of editing after. Getting the yes as well is also pretty common. So it's kind of nice talking to people who you see is a little bit more successful and experienced who have been through what you've been through as well.

Madeleine: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I was, we were just talking before, um, we started recording that, um, you've been receiving some wonderful reviews for your book. So can you talk about that experience as well? Um, reading reviews of your own work? Oh, 

Lisa Kenway: yes. Reviews are amazing when they're good. Of course. Yeah, I don't know how people can be so disciplined that they don't read their reviews.

Lisa Kenway: Um, because for me with a first time book out, I want to see people are reading it. I want to know what they're thinking. Um, so I do read the reviews. Um, most of them have been great. One or two have not. Um, or have just not connected with the book. Um, which is fair enough. It's not for everyone. Right. Um, but I'm still working on separating the book from myself and people's opinions about the book from their opinions about me.

Lisa Kenway: I'm working on not going on Goodreads. Um, uh, but yeah, I, I think it's really hard, uh, when you, um, don't know how your book is being received. Um, you don't get a lot of feedback from anyone after the book comes out. Um, they move on, you know, I mean, they still interested, but publishers are busy people.

Lisa Kenway: They're moving on to the next books that are coming out and, and, you know, they might not have reassuring the insecure debut author whose books just come out at the top of their to do list. Um, so you need to protect yourself a little bit. I think I'm just learning how to do that. It's, um, 

Madeleine: yeah, that's an important thing off 

Lisa Kenway: Goodreads.

Madeleine: I think that's really wise and, um, you know, I think you hear the advice, which is you've got to separate yourself from your book. Once your book goes out into the world, it's completely separate from you. But it's particularly when it's your debut novels. Well, I think there's always going to be that personal connection to it.

Madeleine: Um, so yeah, completely understand. And, um, you can talk to me next year, Lisa, but I'm also saying to myself, I will not be reading Goodreads reviews, but I'll confirm with you next year. I'm good on 

Lisa Kenway: you. 

Madeleine: It's tempting. I 

Lisa Kenway: think I would imagine. It's tempting. And I'm just like, Oh, how many people are reviewing it?

Lisa Kenway: Oh, how many people are reading it? But I mean, it's, it's just not a positive thing to do, but I don't think it's good 

Madeleine: for you. I think I agree with that. Similar vein to social media as well. Trying to create boundaries with social media, I think too. 

Lisa Kenway: And that's really difficult because. When people, when your book just comes out and people are lovely and they're sharing little beautiful flat layers of your book and little reviews on Instagram and all of that, and you want to show them that you're appreciative of that by, you know, reposting and commenting and sharing and all of that, it gets overwhelming.

Madeleine: Yeah, it really does. You probably constantly feel like you're on your phone as well rather than just enjoying the moment. 

Lisa Kenway: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And that's not good for your mental health. So I think, um, I'm trying to put some boundaries up for myself. 

Madeleine: Yeah. That's good. And I suppose moving on to your next book as well helps with dealing with the intensity of your release.

Madeleine: So what are you, can you tell us a bit about what you're working on? Cause I know you're already starting it as well. 

Lisa Kenway: Yeah, I, I'm a little bit superstitious about saying too much, but there is a lot of, a lot of, about that book out there because it's had some successes already in, in unpublished manuscript competitions and things.

Lisa Kenway: So, 

Madeleine: um, 

Lisa Kenway: it's another thriller. This one's set on the coast. It's in a town under threat from coastal erosion and, um, That's about as much as I'm willing to say without jinxing myself. 

Madeleine: There's a teaser for everybody. I mean, anything on the coast. Great. That sounds wonderful. Oh, well, we're very excited to hear from you.

Madeleine: So, um, before we finish up, I thought, Oh, there's two questions I have remaining, which is one I'd love to hear from you about recommendation of a day book, since we've got the debut crew in common. A debut crime or thrill title. And then you've given us, I mean, so many amazing tips, but if you have one tip for an aspiring or emerging writer.

Lisa Kenway: So I am deliberately not recommending any books from the debut crew, cause I don't want anybody to think that I am favoring anyone. So I'll go back a couple of years and recommend a book that absolutely blew me away, which was, um, Jacqueline Boeblitz's, um, Uh, before you knew my name. Mm-Hmm. ? 

Madeleine: Yes. Yep. Which, have you read it?

Madeleine: No, I haven't, but I've seen it, so I'll have to put it on my tv. 

Lisa Kenway: R oh, it absolutely, um, smashed apart the dead girl sort of because it's, and, and it's very and atypical crime novel, I would say. Um, more literary. Um, not typical of the genre, but, um, I would say it meets enough of the crime genre, you know, elements to be classified as crime novel.

Lisa Kenway: Um, but it, it's about a woman who finds a, Um, murdered girl in New York and the points of view are from the woman who finds her and the dead girl. 

Madeleine: Oh, amazing. 

Lisa Kenway: Yeah. That sounds haunting. It's feminist. It's lyrical. It's clever. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, I think I'm drawn to crime novels that are a little bit, um, different 

Madeleine: to 

Lisa Kenway: the standard ones.

Lisa Kenway: I think I like to see how far you can push the genre 

Madeleine: and quite dark too, given your dark and uh, 

Lisa Kenway: um, I'd love to write a cozy crime, but I don't think it's me anyway. And as for a tip, I think if, uh, it kind of depends on where you are in the, in the process, if you're still trying to get a book picked up, trying to get that deal, um, I would say, um, It really helps if you can look at this as a long term proposition that now, looking back, I'm glad that my first novel wasn't picked up and that it wasn't my first book.

Lisa Kenway: Because I am a better writer now and I'm writing different sort of novel and the sort of novels that I want to keep writing. And I think if that first book had been published, it would have pigeonholed me in a whole different place with my writing. So I think looking back now, I can see that it just took, it took best part of a decade for me to develop skills I needed.

Lisa Kenway: Um, and I'm grateful that I took the time for that to happen, but it's hard when you're in the moment getting rejections to see that. But if you can see it as a long term goal and keep writing, keep working on different things, keep learning and keep sending it out, you know, you'll get there. 

Madeleine: That's a wonderful tip, Lisa.

Madeleine: Thank you so podcast. Well, thanks for having me. It's, it's been 

Lisa Kenway: such 

Madeleine: a lovely chat. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the book deal podcast. Please like follow or share this episode so we can encourage more aspiring authors. And if you have a question you'd like us to answer or ask our guests, please find us on Instagram at the book deal or email us at the book deal at outlook.

Madeleine: com.