The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
The Publishing Deal: Literary agent Samuel Bernard (Part 1)
In this first episode of the Publishing Deal series, where Madeleine and Tina chat to publishing insiders, they begin by sharing their latest updates, including Madeleine's proofreading process for her manuscript and Tina's experiences at a writing conference. They also dive into a discussion about receiving feedback, particularly on spicy scenes, offering practical advice on how to handle such critiques. The episode then transitions to an interview with Samuel Bernard, a literary agent at Zeitgeist Literary Agency, who shares insights on the importance of social media for authors, what agents look for in submissions, and the benefits of having a literary agent in Australia. The interview covers how to effectively use comparative titles, the critical first 500 words of a manuscript, and the agent's role in negotiating contracts and advocating for authors.
00:00 Introduction and Greetings
01:11 Madeleine's Book Update
02:06 Tina's Fortnight Highlights
04:35 Discussing Feedback
12:20 Interview with Samuel Bernard
19:31 The Journey to Now
20:29 The Power of Social Media for Authors
25:03 The Role of a Literary Agent
27:42 Navigating Submissions and Manuscripts
31:21 Comparative Titles and Their Importance
37:19 Benefits of Having an Agent in Australia
41:21 Final Thoughts on Agents and Publishing
Links mentioned in this app:
Booklinks Story Arts Brisbane
Author Kirsten Ealand
Illustrator Deb Hudson
Samuel Bernard
Zeitgeist Literary Agency
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Tina Strachan children's book author
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Madeleine Cleary | Author
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Hi Madeleine. Hey Tina. How you going? Oh, really good. Really good. Thanks. Excited to, um, hear about your update for the last fortnight or so.
Madeleine:Oh yes. I can't believe like these fortnights come around so quickly. And do you know, I learned something interesting that fortnight is an Australian British thing that in the U S they say fortnight.
Tina:There's a fun fact. Seems like an excess
Madeleine:amount of words. I know, I know, Fortnite is so convenient. Yes. Okay. So, uh, I have a very brief update. Um, I received my proofread copy, which is very exciting. So the next month, uh, I'm going to be going through my manuscript, trying to find any errors or, uh, issues with the, with the typeset. Um, it is so exciting to see the typeset though, cause it looks like a real book now. Um, it's very exciting. It is so exciting. What do you think of it? Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. It's, it's great. And so I went to Officeworks, printed out all 400 pages, got my ruler, got my pen going through nice and slowly. So yeah, I've got a month to do this. I'm trying to take my time. I like to get things through really quickly, but I've decided this time I'm going to just take my time. So that's pretty much it. That's a good length of time. It is. I'm very lucky. We are quite ahead of schedule, which is good. So the copy edit didn't take as long as we expected. So we have a lot of time. So that's pretty much my book update. But what about you, Tina? You've been up to lots of things in the past fortnight.
Tina:I have. I have. I've been doing fun stuff. You know, sometimes you have weeks or months when not much is going on. Kind of happened. Uh, but this week I, so I went to the BSAB. It's Book Links Story Arts Brisbane, uh, writing, uh, conference.
Madeleine:And
Tina:I certainly got to go for one day, but that was with the workshop with Amie Kaufman and Peter Carnavas, which was incredible. They both did half day sessions. You know, I just don't think you can get enough. Writing advice sometimes, just even, you know, Peter Canovas did a lot on just story structure and just hearing someone else explain it in a particular way is like, Oh, I didn't even, didn't even consider that. Or even if you do do it, knowing that you're on the right track, you know, did you take lots
Madeleine:of notes? Have you? So what, I mean, what was the key thing? Was there something that really stood out to you?
Tina:Um, I think with Peter Carnavas, I really enjoyed how practical he made it, um, because he writes a lot of middle grade as well. And just some little tips, you know, sometimes it's nice to put in like a saying that someone says, and that's not even middle grade. That's like, that can be all books, like a particular saying that someone says all the time, sometimes a particular object that's just hanging around, but it's really special for someone. So it makes it unique to the individual character rather
Madeleine:than something like, Oh, my heart thumped. It could be like they. Pick their fingernails or something, you know, trying to make it unique. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tina:Some lots of nice little, um,
Madeleine:yeah.
Tina:Suggestions like that. I love that writing
Madeleine:is a continuous learning journey, isn't it? We're always learning.
Tina:Yeah.
Madeleine:It's hard to, you know, I don't think anyone's at that expert. It's hard to say, call yourself an expert, I think, because there's always new ways to do it.
Tina:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then yesterday I got to, um, help one of the debut crew 24 celebrate the launch of their new picture book. So it's called Like a Gannet. I'm going to show you how cute the, Oh, it's so cute. Like a Gannet. Yeah. So that's by Kirsten Eland and illustrated by Deb Hudson. And it was just really nice to go down and visit another local ish author and, um, help them celebrate. So that was really fun. Oh, that's good.
Madeleine:I love, I love a launch. I love a book launch. It's so fun. Isn't it so exciting?
Tina:Yeah. Um, but I wanted to talk to you, Madeleine,
Madeleine:about
Tina:What's our,
Madeleine:yes,
Tina:what's our theme? What are we talking about? Feedback, I think. Oh, okay. When you receive feedback. Um, because you know, you get it through all various stages of writing. If you're just new and you're first putting it out to the world and you can submit it to, you know, competitions and get a bit of feedback. Um, you can join a writer's group and get some feedback. And, um, you know, I think it's, Um, you know, I want to talk to you about if you have some advice on how you think people should, you know, deal with receiving feedback because, you know, not everybody. And as we know, you can ask five different people and you probably get five different responses back. But, uh, the reason I want to bring it up is because I know that you received some feedback recently on one of your manuscripts. One of
Madeleine:my manuscripts that makes me sound
Tina:so prolific, your, your most recent manuscript. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Madeleine:Oh, I love
Tina:feedback.
Madeleine:I, I think,
Tina:do you, do you like feedback? I love it. I get very excited. Yes, and I'm very open to it, but I can't say that I've had the feedback that you've had recently, um, because I don't write sex scenes in my books. So now,
Madeleine:okay, I'm just going to warn listeners. If you've got small little kiddies in the car, maybe you want to turn this part down.
Tina:Yeah. So, you know, it's sometimes, you know, you open your feedback and it's for the open mind and you take it all on board and you prepared for people to, you know, be reading your inner most thoughts that you're putting on the page and getting back to you. But it's. Does it feel a little bit more personal when it's about a
Madeleine:sex scene? Absolutely. It was, it's funny. Like I kept giggling, which I'm giggling now. I mean, I know it's funny. It's like, Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay. So, um, so I'm working on my second book and I recently got some feedback on that and, um, one of, and it was really, really helpful and useful feedback, which I'm going to take away and do. And this, I should, say to listeners that this book, it's, um, contemporary sort of domestic suspense, women's fiction book. Um, and it's, um, it's, it's wonderful. And it's quite different to my historical fiction book. Uh, and so in one of the characters, She has this very wonderful sort of sexual experience and when it's very true, the feedback I got was, while it's very tasteful, tasteful, not sure if that's how you want your sex scenes described. Um, you could be more explicit here. It's, you know, your own personal preference, of course. Uh, perhaps, you know, think about what you can do to spice things up a bit. And so I read it and I laughed and I think I messaged you straight away. Um, and so I was, you know, as you do, I was having a glass of wine with mum on Friday night. And I told her about this advice and I said to her, mom, I, um, absolutely pulled back on this sex scene because I thought about you reading it. She goes to me, we've got our wine, we're sitting in the sunshine. She goes, darling. She's like, don't worry about that. She's like, don't worry about me. You just put me out of your mind when you're writing. You just go for it.
Tina:Put me out of your mind when you're writing a sex scene. That's what you want. Thanks mom. I wasn't really. Thanks mom. Bye.
Madeleine:And she's like, she's like, just give me, tell me the page numbers and I'll skip over them. I'm like, yes. And then my dad's there, dad's next to her having a wine and dad goes, Oh, I can't wait for the mini series of this. Oh no. So I feel Actually, after having that conversation with mum, I feel a lot more confident to go forth and spice things up. So you're going to really spice it up now, aren't you? I am. And so I've messaged a couple of my girlfriends and we're going to get together and we're going to have a bottle of wine. Um, and we're going to work together and we're going to make this a bit of a fun night and we'll, we'll flesh it out,
Tina:so to speak,
Madeleine:so to speak. So yeah, it's super fun. Randomly, this also came up in our debut crew. We started, you know, our discord writing, like asking lots of questions and it came up naturally. It wasn't something I prompted.
Tina:Someone else had a question, didn't they?
Madeleine:And so, um, I thought the advice was super cool. So if you are writing sex scenes, I thought some of this advice is really good. So I'm not going to name names from our debut crew or keep it all anonymous, but the best advice is to not. Right, so it seems like you're writing an instruction manual. So saying tab A fits into slot B and to focus instead on feelings and emotions. Um, so. You're always going to cringe when writing them, um, but focusing on the feelings and emotion, I think is really important. So I was like, okay, that's really good advice. Um, and then also things like figuring out what language characters use to talk about sex. So one character uses certain words that are very explicit and others a bit more shyer. So, you know, focusing again on what they're feeling, then the physical. I think is, is, you know, so focusing on that. I listened to this great podcast with Chris name about it. I've been doing my research. Like this is such an A type thing to do, doing research on how to write sex scenes, um, focus on the body. So pick senses and describe those right from like touch and smell, rather than like. Physically what's happening and slow everything down as well. So if, you know, as a reader, you know, what's about to happen. And, and to hold the reader back, like wait until the end. So just slowly go into that. Like the focus should be on the buildup rather than the end. So there you go. There's my advice. And there's my top tip to all our listeners about how to write sex scenes. But if you have some advice for me, obviously not Tina, as Tina's writing middle grade, um, I'm just sitting here cringing. Yeah. You've
Tina:gone red. It's so funny though, because I found it really interesting that you say that. And other people who do write sex scenes, um, say that they cringe when they writing them. And I thought that you. I didn't think that I thought if you were writing sex scenes, you'd like really getting into it openly. Well, I just like confident in it. And, um, not at all. It's good to know that you cringe. Maybe one day when I venture into. Adult novels, um, I can sit there and cringe too, knowing that we all are cringing.
Madeleine:Is this in, on your agenda or is this on your, your plan, your future plan, writing a I
Tina:don't have enough time. I've got so many other YA and middle grade that I need to write first. YA
Madeleine:actually does have some time, sex scenes, so man, maybe you'll need this. You might have to come back to this podcast one day, Tina.
Tina:I do have a bit of advice then. Yearn and burn. I remember those words specifically coming from Lisa Berryman, my publisher, because when I first met her, it was to discuss a YA that I had written. And she was like, in YA, it's all about the yearn and burn. Like, you don't really quite ever get there, but it's all about just yearning for it. So. I love that. I do have a tip on that
Madeleine:then. That is, is that okay? We've got our two top tips then for how to write good sex scenes. And I know it's changed from receiving feedback to writing sex scenes, but I think that's okay. That's okay. It's still good. It's good. All right. I hope everyone enjoyed that.
Tina:The following interview is a little bit different to our interviews here on The Book Deal. Both Madeline and myself will be interviewing our guest, Samuel Bernard, a literary agent with Zeitgeist Literary Agency. Samuel is also a freelance writer, book critique and editor, to name just a few of the feathers in his cap. Madeline and I are all about The Book Deal here, and how we can help all aspiring authors sign the deal. So we knew interrogating a literary agent would provide many gems of knowledge to help authors. Samuel had so many golden tips that we have had to split this episode into two parts. In part one of our interview, we talk social media, we talk how to construct your pitch for the ultimate chance of success, we talk why the first 500 words of your manuscript can be the most important, we talk comparative titles and how to find them, and we get the hard truth on the benefits of having an agent. We hope you enjoy part one of this interview.
Madeleine:Welcome Samuel to the book deal podcast.
Samuel:I'm very excited to be here. This is my third podcast and, um, and it, yeah, it's, it's nerve wracking every single time. Um, you wouldn't think so, but, um, yeah, I remember talking to some writers recently, uh, when you're at a writers festival, you're presenting on a panel or something like that. It, you kind of get nervous cause it's live, but. At least if you say something dumb, it's kind of gone. Whereas if you say something dumb on a podcast, it's there forever for everyone to see. So,
Tina:yeah. And they can play it over and over again.
Samuel:That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So if I can say, don't quote me.
Madeleine:We're not going to go, we're not going to go easy on you, Samuel. Tina's going to play a big nice cop, I'll play a bad cop. I'm a
Tina:nice cop here. I'm softening the questions for you. And Bambi's like, no, just ask it.
Samuel:So if we've got a good cop and a bad cop, am I the criminal in this scenario? What's going on? Call it
Madeleine:what you will. Um, all right. So in all seriousness, we're very, very excited to have you on the podcast, Samuel. We've got lots and lots of questions prepared. Um, but we also thought like, given we're all about book deal book deals, obviously here on the pod, that we should also talk to someone like yourself because you are, I'm guessing someone that spends a lot of time thinking and working on book deals.
Samuel:Yeah, sure do. Yep.
Tina:All right. See ya. So I'm going to take it away with our first question, Samuel. Um, a little bit about yourself, I guess a little bit of your background. So can you tell us about your journey to becoming a literary agent? Is it something that you've always wanted to do? Uh, yeah. What attracted you to this industry?
Samuel:Yeah. Um, It's a good question, um, because I guess it's one of those jobs that you don't go to university for. Like there's no, it's not law or education or health, you know, nursing, that kind of stuff. You, you, there's only about, you know, 20 odd agents in Australia. So, you know, it's, it's not something that you overly prepare for, I guess. Um, but I've, I've always loved books. Um, reading, writing since I was a kid. Uh, I fell in love with the idea of writers and publishing very early on kind of romanticize the industry a little bit. And my dad certainly instilled writing and reading, uh, in me from a very young age. Um, my early favorite authors were not maybe who you'd think, um, you know, people like Ernest Hemingway, Margaret Atwood and Aldous Huxley, Edgar Allan Poe, probably books that. a kid wouldn't generally read. Um, so it's always been a passion. Um, But I guess as I approach the end of high school, uh, I've, I've received some of the best advice I think I've been given from my mom, which was, you know, she, she convinced me to go and do a education degree, a teaching degree. Um, my parents were self employed growing up when I was growing up. So I think the stability that came with that, um, You know, it was a great draw. The holidays are great. Um, and she thought I'd have a knack for it. So, and teaching was really good to me, but I always felt like I wanted more, um, and kept coming back to the passion of, of creative writing in the books industry. So after a number of years of teaching, I decided to upskill. I went and did a master's of writing. I loved it. Um, So much so that I decided to continue my study, uh, into a PhD at Monash uni and the PhD was in creative writing and it was amazing. My supervisor and I, um, had some incredible conversations, discussions, analysis of work, uh, and, and I also got this opportunity to be an editor for the verge literary journal, um, which is published by, uh, Monash university publishing. Um, And going through that process of looking at pictures, um, from authors trying to get into the journal, um, meeting with authors and talking about their stories, uh, then proceeding to do editorial work right up to the sort of publication process. Um, and going through that process, I think really sparked something in me. So PhD, I decided that Academia was not going to be a true passion of mine and where I really wanted to go. Um, I just really wanted to work with books, with authors, with publishers. Um, so around the time I finished my master's of writing, I got a gig writing for good reading magazine, which soon followed with writing features. And now I've got an opinion column with them each month, um, which is a lot of fun. I get to, You know, she was some really interesting topics to cover. Um, and then somehow, you know, my reviews got the attention of Caroline Overington, who's the literary editor at the Australian. Um, she reached out to me. I thought for sure I was getting catfished, um, because she, she DMed me on, on Instagram and I was like, okay, this is totally not her. This is some. random person who's just messing with me. Um, but yeah, she, she gave, she offered me a monthly gig writing the notable books column for the week in Australian and doing some long form reviews. And I've been doing that for almost three years. So, um, kind of was doing that during My PhD study and doing a little bit of that writing on the side, but you definitely can't make a full time living from being a critic, unfortunately. So I explored more avenues in the industry. Um, I'd done a little bit of work in, in, with a tech company actually in PR and publicity. Um, so I had some meetings with some targeted publishers for a PR role. Um, The agenting avenue just looked like a complete package to me, you know, like you could get into the creative writing. You can work with publishers as well as authors. Um, you're looking at the editorial stuff. Um, so I guess that's what drew me into agenting. So again, I kind of targeted a couple of agencies that I really respected. Um, and I met with, uh, the director of Zeitgeist and The rest is history. There's a long, a long history of my life, isn't it?
Tina:It's great. Yeah. And it's so relevant. You know, every step of your, of the way, everything that you've done really has led to now, hasn't it? Like it's all been very relevant. Yeah. That's interesting. And, um, uh, that story about getting a DM in your Insta, it's pretty incredible, but I have heard of similar stories with, um, authors even of have, of you know, a publisher or, or an agent, um, DMing them on, on Insta. So it seems like a bit of a fairy tale, but it does, it does seem to happen. And
Samuel:that's, uh, that's just, you know, you just got to put yourself out there and, and, um, you know, have a bit of fun with it all in the process, but I've never been big on selling myself and being a networker and all that kind of stuff. But. It, you know, it opens doors. Um, and I made the decision a while back that I would, I would have an Instagram, um, sort of for my writing career. And obviously that, that helped me a lot. So
Tina:yeah. Can I ask a related question to that actually about social media? Yeah, of course. It's been a great segue straight into that. Um, because it's a question that a lot of Authors and aspiring authors do ask a lot or think about a lot. Uh, you know, I don't, you know, a few years ago when I was, you know, listening to all the podcasts and everything that I caught about writing and how to get published. And a lot of them were American based ones, to be honest, and were so, It's a lot of them were like, if you don't have a social media following or a platform, like we're probably not even going to look at you,
Samuel:but I know
Tina:that's a very different. I know now that it's very different, but at the time when I was just starting to really delve into it, just being like, well, I might as well just give up, but I know it's very different over here in Australia, but there is still a little bit of, um, yeah, I hear both sides. One is don't worry about it. You don't need any social media or any. platform. Um, it's, you know, publishers and agents aren't really looking at it, but I did hear, um, a publisher from a very big house here in Australia at a conference a couple of months ago say that they actually do. I heard two of them actually, one say after we read your stuff and we like it, we look at your socials. Yeah.
Samuel:Yeah. And I guess it's like betting.
Tina:Yeah. And there's probably nothing wrong with that because if there, if to a degree, I mean, people do it when you apply for a job. Yeah. That's right. You know, they go and find you. And if you're doing any. You know, strange, crazy that, that, that doesn't align with their business, shall we say? Um, then that makes, that's probably fair enough, but, um, and another one say something about actually they have the ability to look at somehow look at your account and see how active you are, like how much you're liking other, other people's pages or commenting or I don't know. I'm not that tech savvy. I know. I don't know. But it was really like they had the ability to see. Your, um, amount of time that you're spending and engaging on that platform.
Samuel:Right.
Tina:Oh, but then I've heard other people say it doesn't matter at all.
Samuel:Yeah.
Tina:What, what are your thoughts on that? What advice can you give for aspiring authors on that?
Samuel:Yeah. It's a really interesting topic because of BookTok and Bookstagram and, and, you know, how big books can really take off on all those platforms. So it's a reality, I guess, in our modern world that. That is, is something to consider. Um, I, if I'm looking and I'm considering taking on a manuscript there, I will look them up the same thing just to sort of see what their presence is like. And, um, you know, someone who might have 200, 000 followers, uh, you know, it is going to grab your attention a little bit. Um, because you've, you've obviously got a really rich platform there, particularly if it's bookstagram or booktalk, um, because the people following you are likely to be readers and buyers of your book. So. You definitely take it into account, but I would not, if I, if I didn't find, and this actually often happens, if I'm considering a manuscript, I look up their Instagram, they don't have one, or I can't find them or whatever. Um, it certainly isn't like, Oh, put them to the side. Um, that's, that's absolutely not. Um, but I, I get the vetting part of it where, you know, you're kind of looking up to, to sort of see what their vibe is, whether, and that, that's not just, um, in our modern world today, where, where you've got to look into those things, um, because you're right. They're going to represent your brand as a publisher, as a, as an agency or something. Um, but also just to sort of see if it's someone that. You know, you could dig working with because as an agent and author, you, you have a, a kind of a special relationship in that your publishers can sometimes come and go. And there is a lot of movement, um, between publishing houses with different publishers and stuff. So it's not uncommon, um, but your agent tends to stick around. So you want to be able to get on with someone. Um, so there's that kind of aspect to it too, is when I'm looking at. whether I want to work with someone or not. Um, but more often than not, it certainly doesn't have it. Decisive factor, um, when I'm weighing everything up.
Tina:Yeah. It's a relationship, right? Like you said, it's fitting them. And that's what, that's what people do now, even in actual relationships, when they go and when I meet someone for the first time, it's like the first thing and they're interested in it's first thing they do, right. It's probably check out their socials, check out what they're doing, because it does give you a bit of a background. Doesn't that to them?
Samuel:Definitely.
Madeleine:So we're actually really interested to know more about your role as an agent with Zeitgeist. And, um, you've been with Zeitgeist now for almost a year or over a year now.
Samuel:Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe 14 or 15 months now, I think. Yeah.
Madeleine:So, so you've had more than 365 days, I suppose, uh, as a literary agent. Have all of those days looked the same or do you, can you tell us a little bit about what, what a day, an average day looks like in literary agent life? Yeah.
Samuel:Yeah, um, it's entirely different every single day. Um, I think particularly for me because I have a few different roles in the industry. Um, so, you know, my day might look very different to other agents, um, as well, but being a critic, a columnist, um, I'm now judging the, um, the Australian literary prize. Um, and then of course agenting. So yeah, no day is the same. Um, there's the not so glamorous side of being an agent. Um, and that's like the administration stuff. Um, and every role and every job has that. It's, it's not the, the fantasy you grow up believing and, and of any job, but there's always the admin side. Um, but generally speaking, I, I guess I love that I get paid to read. And that's how I like to see what I do. Um, I mean, I'm going to be reading regardless, probably as much as I do now. So I guess to make an income from that is pretty special. Um, I also love like my zoom meetings, um, which are most days, uh, but I get to have, and I don't think a lot of people in Australia would share that. Um, but you know, I get to zoom with authors, um, publishers, producers, directors, um, talking about books and, and that's one of the coolest parts of my job. So, um, you know, that's, that's part of my day to day as well. Um, and some days I need to focus on reading of actual manuscripts for my authors, um, or perspective authors. Some days I'm focusing on just pitches that have come through, um, some days it's entirely focused on editing a manuscript, um, that, you know, I've taken on and might be about to go out to publishers. Um, so, you know, and then of course, like reading and writing for the weekend Australian and writing my opinion columns and, you know, like every day is very different, but I guess, Um, you know, my sort of day is, is I'll make sure I prioritize what the next thing is on my list, um, rather than spreading it out. But I think, yeah, my, my day might look very different to, you know, other agents and, and other people in publishing for sure.
Madeleine:And so when you're, um, you obviously have to do so much reading. Do you read the full submissions when they come through the slush pile? Do you read the full or do you get a sense straight away in the first few pages? Because since you do do so much reading, you must get a sense of the vibe of the book pretty quickly, I would imagine.
Samuel:Yeah, um, definitely. You, When, when we're talking about, I guess the whole submission at Zeitgeist, we have a submissions guideline, um, on our website. So for example, um, we don't have a cover letter or anything like that. We basically ask for things like, you know, what's the title, obviously, what's the genre of work, um, what's your current word count, um, which can also be a deciding factor. I had a submission not that long ago. That was 250, 000 words.
Madeleine:Um,
Samuel:And just for
Madeleine:context, a normal average book would be what, something like 80 to 100, 000, would you say? Yeah,
Samuel:yeah, most, most publishers are looking for 70 or 80 ideally, but up to 100 would be the max. Um, so ridiculously long. And you know, that, that plays a factor as well because publishers. Like the printing cost of that alone is very off putting for a lot of publishers. So, um, yeah, so those sort of flags come up pretty early. But in saying that, maybe it's the greatest 250, 000 words ever written. Um, so I definitely don't stop there. Um, we've got then parts that are a 30 word elevator pitch. A 200 word synopsis, your bio, um, comparative titles, and then we ask for the first 500 words of a manuscript. So, I guess to answer your question, yes, um, I definitely read the whole submission, um, I think it's critical, because you just never know what might slip through. Um, Yeah, but I, yeah, certainly make, make a definitive effort to, to get through it no matter what, um, before moving on.
Madeleine:How do you grab some of your attention in 500 words?
Samuel:Yeah, I think, um, I think I've been well trained for this because, uh, when I was the editor for the verge literary journal, that that's a journal of short stories. Um, so to get your attention very quickly, you need to have a bit of a splash to start off with. And I think, you know, I work, I guess. In the commercial field quite a bit. So I'm looking for 500 words that grabs me somehow. There's something in there, um, that is getting my attention. That is jumping out at me. Um, it could be something really interesting to do with your character. It could be your opening line. Even, you know, I've, I've had submissions that I've asked for full manuscripts where that opening line is just, okay, yep. Game on, you know, um, So 500 words isn't much, but I do believe that it's enough for particularly when you put it next to a synopsis, you know, the elevator pitch, things like that as well. It's not just 500 words, um, that you take into account. But, but those first 500 words are pretty critical. Um, even Like walking around bookshops and stuff like that, the amount of people you see who open up that first page and just read the first page, they're making a decision about whether they're going to buy that book or not. Um, the style, the energy, something that's just grabbed your attention, um, something about it, you need to grab people's attention. So I find that 500 words is a pretty good little sweet spot.
Madeleine:Well, that's a good top tip then for all our listeners who are submitting work on your first 500 words. Nail it. Yeah. Yeah. That's
Tina:right. Yeah.
Madeleine:That's a
Tina:really good tip. Um, Samuel, just on that, you're saying before you mentioned comparative titles, that was something I struggled with a lot. Um, when I was first starting to write pitches and query letters and understanding what that actually mean meant. And I, Yeah. Continually sort of flitted between, I have to find something that's exactly the same. I'm like, but I don't want something that's exactly the same. And yeah, you know, it was hard to understand what that means. And, and cause it's not necessarily saying what's something that's exactly the same, but something that is, a similar style or has a similar meaning or appeals to a similar audience. Can you, can you give us, you know, some advice there on what's a good way to, what does that actually mean a comparative title and what's a good way of finding a comparative title?
Madeleine:Yeah. How important is it as well? Because I've heard that it's quite important to think through this.
Samuel:It is important, um, not only for an agent, but, you know, publishes the, One of the major things that they need to consider when they're deciding whether to take on a manuscript, um, and, and publish it into the world is where it sits on a shelf, um, in a bookshop, in a library, whatever. Um, that's so critical for them to be able to market it. Um, and I'm not a marketer, uh, you know, I've never worked in sales or anything like that. So I don't know the intricacies of that. It is something that is often discussed is where, you know, who's the buyer of this book? Who who's buying this book? Where are we listing it? Um, what books is it sitting next to on a bookshelf? Um, Now you guys can't see my bookshelves, but I, I'm very painful in how I arrange my books. Um, and so I can only imagine what it's like for a bookstore to be thinking about, you know, if someone's been drawn to an area, let's say Rachel Johns is sitting on the bookshelf. Who is surrounding her there? You know, like, those are the sort of questions that you really need to consider. Um, and nobody is expecting everyone to know all books and have read everything and, you know, I read heaps. Um, but even there's gaps in my knowledge, you know, I, I sometimes, I often see, um, Comparative titles. And I'm like, Nope, never heard of that. You Google it. You look it up. You see what the vibe is. You see what the synopsis is. And you start to get a bit of a sense as to what they're trying to achieve with it. So it is a bit of an art. And I, and I do place a lot of importance on it, um, because, you know, from an agent's perspective, because we need that information then to be able to position it and be able to then, um, I guess, pitch that particular place on a bookshelf to the publisher so they can market it. They know exactly how to do that.
Tina:And can, how do you feel about people using a book and. A movie or a show or a person like, or a vibe or an like an industry, like it's, I've
Samuel:had. Yeah, I've had TV shows and films before and I'm into it because, um, I, I'm, I'm the same, I, you know, when I'm talking about some of my favorite, um, maybe historical novels, I draw in some parts of different TV shows, Band of Brothers, stuff like that, that I absolutely adore, um, when I'm trying to like, Round out my, my idea of what's good. So I'm here for that. I've not come across like people or vibes, um, in that sense. So yeah, I'm not sure how to react to that. Um, but I guess it, it, it's all kind of like a bit of a mood board in a sense, isn't it? Like you, you are just trying to get a, Grasp on what they're trying to achieve and where they're trying to position the work. So, I mean, if, if you send it through and it makes sense to me, then all power to you.
Tina:Can I confess that I used a person in a book then? You have to say something bad
Samuel:about it.
Tina:No, no, it wasn't a set up. I promise. Um, yeah, I can. Do you want me to tell you what it is? It was, I don't know if you know, I did not sign up for an online recorded pitch today. Okay. Um, but this is
Samuel:all a ruse. This whole podcast is a ruse.
Tina:No, it's already signed and it's okay. So it's
Samuel:so,
Tina:so this was for my, um, my series that comes out next year. Um, so it's middle grade and it's about a girl who lives in a zoo. Bye. Bye. With her family. So my pitch was if Bindi Irwin met Juliet Nearly a Vet, which is a book series for kids, then you'd get Nika Wilder, who's the, who's the main character. Oh,
Samuel:see, I like that. Yeah, that works for me. Yeah. And it is such, Yeah, I can totally see the benefit of that because it is like drawing a mood board, isn't it? It's, it's trying to get different elements from popular culture that we all understand. We can all get on the same page and that's exactly what you just did. So yeah, I'm here for it.
Tina:Well, it was successful for those of you out there that, that are thinking of it. That's very true. Because it gives the vibe, right? It gives the scenario. Everyone knows it. So yeah, I'm just going to say that, um, I think it's really important to be able to understand who that person is and you've already got a mental image in your head. So yeah,
Samuel:absolutely.
Tina:Thinking outside the box. That's my top tip for today.
Samuel:Yeah. I love that. Outside
Tina:the box with your comparative titles.
Samuel:Now I'm going to get an influx in this.
Tina:I take no responsibility for what happens after this with people's, um, comparative titles, but, but thank you for that. That was, um, really interesting and really important conversation. Um, yeah. So just moving on to agents, uh, and in Australia, and I mentioned before how different it is between other countries, especially the States. And we know that, um, you know, in the States and in the UK, you, if you don't have an agent, you just, you can't get in front of publishers. There's just no way of doing it. Uh, we have a little bit more opportunity over here to do it without an agent, but so being traditionally published is still possible in Australia without an agent, but can you tell us what are the benefits? of having an agent.
Samuel:Yeah, like everything you've just said is absolutely true. Um, in Australia, we, we do differ from places like America where publishers won't look at anything without an agent, um, any unsolicited manuscripts, um, as many people would know. Um, but it is still incredibly useful to have an agent in Australia. Um, I actually get quite a number of people who have submitted to a publishing house when they've opened their submissions and say, I've actually got a contract now. I am freaking out. I have no idea what to do. Please help me. Um, so I guess, you know, Once it comes to that point, and so even if you've gone through the process, you've gotten that far without an agent, that's not sort of where, where the agents would stop their work anyway, you know, so, um, the ongoing relationship of having that professional in the industry. With the knowledge of what works, you know, through the next book, the editorial work for the next book, the ideas, having a, um, um, sounding board to bounce off. Um, all those things are incredibly important, but also like the actual, when it comes down to the contract, um, which a lot of people wouldn't have the expertise for. So you don't know if you're getting taken for a ride or not. Um, many now, I don't mean that against our, um, publishing houses in Australia, because they're very, very. Um, well respected and, and I know them all, um, personally, they're all great people. So I can't imagine a scenario where they do that, but ultimately it's a business and, you know, even down to world rights and, and screen rights and all that kind of stuff. Um, people are a bit lost as to what they should do with that. So I think even in those positions where someone has got a contract in front of them, it can be really beneficial then to get an agent on board. Um, but. I guess even without that, um, well, let me, let me put it this way. Publishers basically, you know, take pictures from agents. above all others. So if they've got a submission opening, um, they're all sitting there. Sure. And they're going to be looked at by somebody. Um, but agents have that direct line to all the publishers in Australia. You know, I, I know them personally. Um, I can pick up the phone and talk to them. I can send them an email directly with a pitch. Um, and I know that even at writers festivals, publishers have said this, um, that when they get an email from an agent, like that's kind of, they'll stop and take notice, you know, um, it goes to the top of their, their list of things to look at. Um, and I think that's because an agent generally has done a lot of the heavy lifting for the publisher at that point. You know, they've, they've scoured the submission, um, Slush piles as they call it, and they've picked out the diamonds. They might've done some editorial work to clean it up and polish it up a little bit. Um, you know, so not only that, but agents, you know, have that expertise on, on the contract law around and all that kind of stuff. Um, they can play, you guys are talking about good cop, bad cop before they, you know, the agent can play good cop, bad cop with a publisher. Um, you know, we don't want the author to have to have those really tough conversations. Um, let's say if, if. It's getting published and, um, and the cover art comes in and it is just not what the author wanted at all. Um, you know, the agent can play that, that bad cop kind of thing and, and go into bat for them. So, you know, there's, there's tons of different reasons why people would go for agents, um, rather than not. And I think when it boils down to it, it's, it's expertise and it's the network of, of contacts that they have in the industry.
Madeleine:Just on what you were saying Samuel about, um, someone who is approached by a publisher and then emails you and says, I don't know what to do. They're not, they're not with your agency, but they're suddenly in this position. And then that actually happened to me. So I was very fortunate, didn't have an agent, but I had. Multiple offers for, for my book. And I remember some people at the time saying to me, Oh, you should go and reach out to some agents and, and, um, they can sort of help you. I said, but I've already got like the offer. Like I'll then have to give, isn't it like 15 percent as part of the contract. And, um, but, but reflecting on it, I think. There's lots of that. Would you, would you receive that email and want to help that person, like engage that person or? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Samuel:Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, and you know, this, this actually happens to me moderately frequently. Um, and sometimes I take them on, sometimes I don't, you know, I'm, I'm not the sort of agent who's going to be like, Oh, you've got, you've got a contract on offer. That's easy money for me. I'm going to do it. And then kind of, Like that's, that's not my vibe at all. Um, I really want to build a strong list of authors who I'm dedicated to, who I have really good communication with, who I'm supporting their careers. Um, and also in sort of the more commercial space. So I've had quite a few people reach out. Um, who are more literary, um, and you know, while I, I love literary work, um, it's probably not where I'm kind of building my list around. I'm sort of more focused on the commercial side. Um, so I've, I've spent hours on the phone, just talking them through how to negotiate that contract and support them. Um, you know, if someone reaches out to me in that position. You know, I want to help out in some way, even if I don't take them on. Um, but in your case, if, if you're saying you had multiple offers, um, then, you know, an agent could definitely have helped you in that scenario because, um, you know, we sometimes go to auction and it can drive up the price, um, of, of an advance and, and it's not always about the money, but when you do push that advance up a little bit for, for your book, um, you start to, Get the publisher in a position where they're like, Oh, we paid a lot of money for this. Now we need to back it. You know, we need to put in the marketing, the sales, we need this book to be a bestseller. Um, so you kind of get into a position there where you're actually getting the publisher to back it. Even more so. Um, so there's, there's a multitude of different reasons why, you know, that would be beneficial, um, when you're in that position, but more often than not, I think I get people who, who reach out because they're just like, you know, help, I have no idea. I don't want to engage a lawyer to look at this contract because lawyers are crazy expensive. Um, and you know, they don't know maybe much about the books industry and books, contracts and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, I think, uh, if you're, if you're in that position, you, yeah, it's, um, it's probably good to, to reach out if not just to pick up the phone and have a conversation, um, about where to go next.