The Publishing Deal: Literary Agent Samuel Bernard (Part 2)

In part two of the interview with Samuel Bernard, a literary agent from Zeitgeist Literary Agency, he shares insights on landing an agent, the importance of polished manuscripts, and the role of timing in the publishing process. Samuel discusses his preferences and current interests in genres, accessibility for aspiring writers, and how timing and market trends can impact the chances of getting published. The episode also touches on the advantages and challenges of the agent-author relationship post-book deal, as well as advice on genre identification and emerging market trends, culminating in a rapid-fire segment addressing practical questions from listeners.

00:00 Introduction to the Interview Series
01:29 Samuel Bernard's Role and Preferences
03:19 How Aspiring Writers Can Reach Out
05:35 Rapid Fire Questions
09:20 Trends and Timing in Publishing
13:04 Genre Identification and Crossovers
15:18 Agent-Author Relationship Dynamics
27:23 Final Tips for Aspiring Writers

Links mentioned in this episode:
Zeitgeist Literary Agency
Bad Crime Writers Festival
Sunshine Coast Hinterland Writers Festival
Brisbane Writers Festival

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Transcript

 [00:00:00] 

Tina: Welcome to part two of our interview with Samuel Bernard, Literary Agent with Zeitgeist Literary Agency. This episode concludes our first show in our Publishing Deals series, where we chat to those working inside publishing to share their tips and advice on what they think can [00:01:00] help you get your manuscript published.

Part two of our interview with Samuel discusses the intricacies of landing an agent, the importance of having a polished manuscript before you submit, and the significance of timing. Then Madeline and I ask the tough questions our listeners want answered and shoot some not so quick fire questions at Samuel.

And just a word of warning, if you have little ones in the car, some adult content is mentioned. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Madeleine: what's your, what does your dream author look like? Who's either submitting or, or pitching to you an event? Like what, what are you looking for at the moment? 

Samuel: Yeah. Um, so with Zeitgeist, um, we've got, there's four agents with Zeitgeist, um, currently.

So there's two based in Sydney. One is the director of Zeitgeist in Australia. That's Benython Oldfield. Um, and then there's me. And then we've got an office in Brussels and London as well, um, who deal with, obviously European rights [00:02:00] deals, um, UK, um, US all that kind of stuff as well. Um, so why I tell you that is because, um, as our director does a lot in the, um, literary world, he, he does quite a bit in memoir and nonfiction as well.

So I think, um, when I came on board, he was kind of, I guess pushing me in a position where, um, you know, commercial was a bit more focused so that between us, we can cover the industry a little bit more detail. So, you know, like I love crime, I love thrillers, historical fiction. Um, I've got, people on my list that are romance writers.

Um, I, I love some commercial women's fiction. I just sold, um, a book that's going to be coming out in early 2026 in commercial women's. It's fantastic. Um, again, hasn't been announced yet, so I can't go into too much detail. Um, and I, I sold a romantasy recently, um, which is kind of a, you know, a really hot, Um, [00:03:00] uh, genre at the moment.

Um, and then I also represent, um, people like James Phelps, who's, uh, one of Australia's best selling nonfiction writers. Um, so I think in general, for me, anything with a commercial reach is probably where, um, I'm sitting at the moment and what I've got in my crosshairs. 

Madeleine: And what are some of the ways that aspiring writers, um, can reach out to you?

So obviously we've talked about the Zeitgeist submission, but are there other ways that they can engage you? 

Samuel: Yeah, at risk of, um, having a flooded DM on Instagram, um, I do have quite a few people that, yeah, reach out and, um, and, you know, some, like, I'm always, I feel like one of my big, you know, I don't know how to put it, you know, like I really enjoy being accessible.

Um, I don't like having bad communication. I feel like I'm a good communicator in a sense without sounding cocky, but, um, I [00:04:00] like that. I want to be accessible, even if it's for information. If someone's like, wants to reach out, just ask them a question. Um, You know, it might take me a little bit of time to get back to them, but I want to, um, so yeah, DMS, um, yeah, maybe, um, we'll, um, might put that one on ice, but no, it's, it's fine.

Um, obviously our submissions folder is, is certainly the official place. Um, we've closed those off. for the moment, but it's not long until they will reopen. And then I've got, you know, I often go, I'm always at writers festivals and stuff like that. And I often have people come up and ask me questions after panels or pitching events that happen at festivals.

I did Bad Crime Writers Festival last year, Brisbane Writers Festival, appearing at the upcoming Sunshine Coast Hinterland Writers Festival. Um, so all those sorts of times as well. Um, you know, it's, it's good to look out for those because I [00:05:00] certainly have some really good detailed conversations with people face to face about their ideas and what they're up to.

Madeleine: Oh, that's great. Um, and your name has been thrown up quite a few times, actually, Samuel, um, about how accessible you are. So I think that's wonderful. It's hard to be that, to be so accessible in the industry, I think is wonderful. So 

Tina: that's nice. We won't edit out the bit about sending him an, uh, Instagram DM.

Samuel: Well, we talked about social media and how important it is, so I can't be, I can't be contradictory to that. 

Madeleine: Um, should we do our rapid 

Tina: fire, Tina? Yeah, let's do our rapid fire questions. All right. We'll see how rapidly we can actually get through this. Oh, okay. So this means, 

Samuel: this means I've got to shut up and just keep the answer short.

I like it. 

Madeleine: So maybe we should, we should, um, explain what this is. So this is a little segment that we thought we'd introduce because we put it out there to our Instagram followers. Um, again, in stuff, um, to [00:06:00] see if there are any questions that listeners would have for a secret, secret literary agent. Um, so we didn't name you.

Um, we got quite a lot of responses. So in order to try and get through as much as we can, we thought we'll just focus on rapid fire responses as much as we can. Um, and, and so we'll, yeah, we'll see how we go. Um, all of these are anonymous as well. So we've had a few, lots of candid kind of questions. 

Samuel: Okay.

Scary. All 

Tina: right. Are you ready? Um, okay. The first one. Would you ever take on a client who has. who only has a draft and not a full manuscript. It also says in brackets, asking for a friend. Did you write that? That was from the listener asking 

Madeleine: for a friend lol. 

Samuel: Oh, okay. Um, short answer. I'll try and keep these short considering it's rapid fire.

Um, the end, the short answer is probably not, uh, unless maybe your name is Trent Dalton or Rachel Johns or something like that. [00:07:00] Um, Yeah, I think when it comes to an agent or putting it out to a publisher, you really want to put your best foot forward. Um, 99 times out of a hundred, that, that means it, it needs to be a completed and clean manuscript.

Madeleine: And, and what does clean mean? Because I think a lot of people probably, it's very tempting, they finish their first draft and want to send it off straight away because they're so excited. 

Samuel: Yeah. Oh, that's, yeah, it, it does happen. Um, I would advise against, um, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, if a writer comes to me, It's clear that it's a first draft, there's a lot of errors, you know, like there's a few plot holes, that kind of stuff, and even if the idea is pretty good, the chances are I'm going to be like, there's just too much work to be done yet, um, and, and I do like the editorial side, but, you know, there's a certain cutoff for that because, you know, some manuscripts do come to me that are just, that need a lot of work, um, so, Yeah, I think, I think [00:08:00] that needs, you need to keep that in mind when, when you're starting to approach agents, because if, if you come to me and I've read it and then I see your name come up a few weeks later and go, Oh, I've had another crack at it.

You know, it's, it's hard to get that agent or publisher's attention again. You know, it's, it's tough to, to go back to them a second time and say, Oh, I've worked on it because you know, that, that credibility might not be there. 

Madeleine: This flows onto the next listener question. Should you employ a professional editor to edit your manuscript before querying?

Samuel: No, not at all. Um, I mean, it can't hurt. There's, you know, certainly shows your dedication to, to getting your work out there. Um, and to have a pair of trained eyes reading over it, um, is never a bad thing. Um, but yeah, no, it definitely doesn't need to be professionally edited. No. 

Tina: Okay. So next one is, do you just, and we may have covered this, do you just read the cover letter or do you read the whole submission?

Samuel: Oh, [00:09:00] yeah. Um, no, so definitely get through the whole submission that's, um, you know, you, if, if I'm not loving aspects of the elevator pitch or anything like that, you know, those, those are easily adapted. Um, and if I miss out on that first 500 words that are just awesome, then yeah. FOMO. 

Madeleine: Um, how does timing play a big role in, in your decision to offer representation?

And I'm guessing that could be, you've just signed someone who's a, you know, certain genre, historical fiction or romantasy, and then someone else provides the same thing shortly after. How, how much does a role timing play? 

Samuel: Yeah. Timing is so critical and it's probably not something that I ultimately really thought of before actually becoming an agent.

Um, And, and often, you know, this plays into the idea that if you get rejected by an agent or, or a publisher, it, it might have nothing to do with your writing ability. Um, you know, timing is so critical. Uh, [00:10:00] you know, for example, director of, um, Zeitgeist, Benython, um, is completely closed off right now. It's new authors.

Um, he's just far too busy with his list, um, to take anyone on, um, new. So, you know, if someone reached out to him, it would be a simple, no, just because he's just. Um, overwhelmed right now. So, you know, like that's, that's kind of a part of that timing. Um, but as you alluded to, like, you might have written the best horror novel of all time.

Publishers are buying it at that time. You know, it's not, it's not in, in vogue at that time. So, whereas romantasy, you know, like that, that, that could, um, grab someone's attention very quickly. Uh, so yeah, I think that's, um, That, that all those aspects play a really big part in timing. Um, and don't, don't fret if you, you know, if you get a rejection, um, because of something like that, it doesn't mean that you're a bad writer and it won't get published it, it [00:11:00] just could be timing.

Madeleine: Yeah, that's great advice. I'm actually going to jump to a related question on the list. Um, on trends, um, should authors then, if they're looking at timing and being the next thing, should we be writing to trends? 

Samuel: I would, you know, my personal opinion is that is never a great strategy. Um, you need to write a book that you want to write.

You know, if you love writing literary fiction and then you suddenly jumping on the romantic bandwagon, um, you know, you might fall off that wagon pretty damn quickly. Um, you know, the old saying is write what you know, but you know, more so I think write what you enjoy. Um, because your passion burns through your pages and that's what the reader wants to see.

Madeleine: Is romantasy going to stay, do you think? 

Samuel: I was having this conversation, um, this morning, in fact, I spoke to one of my authors, um, who writes romantasy and, um, I can't see it as being a fad whatsoever. I can't see it going [00:12:00] anywhere. People have been reading fantasy for decades, if not centuries. Um, and romance is, is on a massive.

Upward trend, um, in our country. So you combine those things and you know, what's not to love. Um, you know, it's just a combination of romance, which, you know, people love and fantasy, which has always been a perennial seller. So, um, yeah, I don't think it's, I don't think it's going away. 

Madeleine: And I'm just going to add Maas fan before she was SJM, the legend.

Um, and I even have an email trail with SJM going back to like a long time ago saying how much I loved her books and when I was a bookseller. So, um, I can post that up as proof that I was, 

Samuel: you were early trendsetter, 

Madeleine: early trendsetter.

Tina: Um, thank you. That was really, yeah, really insightful. I agree. Romanticist already been around for a little while, hasn't it? So [00:13:00] it just, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Be going from strength to strength. Um, so speaking of romantasy as a genre, um, it's important to identify a genre when you're querying agents.

What if you are straddling two different genres, if it crosses two genres, do you mush it together like romantasy? or if it's too tricky, do you just need to pick one or the other? And I'm just going to add onto that, do you have any advice for people on how to work out what their genre is? 

Samuel: Yeah, I guess, well, to answer that final part of the question first, um, the Telltale giveaway is your tropes, um, and what tropes you're sort of following throughout your book.

Um, and that's really important because as we talked about before, publishers are looking at their book. for where this book sits on a shelf and how they're going to market a certain book. So that is actually quite critical, but you know, we are, if it's romance, you've got your enemy to [00:14:00] lovers trope, you know, like that kind of stuff.

Um, so that's actually really important. Um, as for the crosses over two genres, Like that's, that's a deep question that we could talk about for hours, I think, um, it's, you know, it's probably comes down to each book and, and, you know, what, what elements are in there, what tropes are being used, um, all that kind of stuff.

It's, it's certainly coming, you know, it, yeah, it comes down to each individual manuscript. I think that's really important. So we probably can't just put out a blanket. No, don't do this. Or yes, do this. Um, Like, but my advice would simply be, I guess, um, if it can still find its way to a section of the bookshelf next to similar authors, then you should be okay.

Um, you know, some of the best books that I've ever read, uh, cross genres at times and, and play with those sorts of things creatively. Um, but there is an art to it. Uh, and so I guess it comes down [00:15:00] to each manuscript on its own merit kind of thing. 

Tina: And maybe that's where the comparative titles can help with, um, showing where it could sit or giving an example of two genres that are working together maybe.

Samuel: Yeah, definitely. Yep. 

Madeleine: Um, okay. So this is a bit of a sad question. Um, what happens just like in all relationships, what happens if a author and an agent break up? 

Samuel: Oh, divorce papers. Um, yeah. Uh, so this is Unfriend them on Insta. Yeah, you joke, but I've heard this actually happening. Um, yeah. Um, so it's never actually happened to me, but I have actually had authors, um, come to me after one of these breakups.

Um, but I haven't had anyone leave me, which is, which is good so far, you know, touch wood. Um, but the short answer is, I guess, um, you know, life. There's contracts involved. Um, and so [00:16:00] it's, it can be a little bit messy. Um, that, that agent has, has done work on your previous books, have, um, found it the right home, have done some editorial and all that kind of stuff.

So royalties and all that kind of thing stay with you. You know, with that agent for that particular project. But, um, you know, sometimes it's as simple as, okay, this relationship has not worked out, um, which is fine. Not all relationships work out as we know. Um, and so they're, they're out there shopping for a new one.

Um, I guess it's just. important to be aware that, you know, once you sign that contract with a publisher, same goes for a publisher, all those rights, uh, you know, with those people under contract still. Um, but that certainly doesn't affect you moving forward to, um, to a new agent or a new publisher. 

Tina: Um, so do you have any advice for Uh, authors who have submitted [00:17:00] to an agent and been rejected for whatever reason.

Can they try again with the same manuscript, uh, if they've made substantial changes? And if so, how long in between would, would be suitable? 

Samuel: Um, I guess that's up to each agent. Um, for me personally, like there's, yeah, there's no hard and fast rule around that sort of stuff. Um, I have certainly told some authors that the manuscript might need some work.

Um, and maybe at that particular time, I just, you know, I didn't have the time to dedicate that amount of work to, to one manuscript. Um, but if they go away, do some development, I like the idea, the elevator pitch was on, you know, that kind of stuff, then I'm happy to have another look at it down the track.

Um, but I would say generally you would, you would really only go back to the same agent if they've kind of invited you to resubmit in the future. Um, that would probably be my advice around that. [00:18:00] 

Madeleine: No, that's a good one. Um, I'm going jumping back to trends. What do you think will be the next big trend in the market?

Samuel: Oh, yeah. Um, actually, interestingly, I've been hearing quite a bit about horror being on its way back. Um, you know, that's from Australian publishers and industry talk and that kind of stuff. Um, but also in foreign markets, I was actually at the international publishers conference in Sydney in May this year.

Um, and some of the big European publishers were talking up horror. Um, uh, one even said, uh, and I'm paraphrasing, and I think it was something like, give me blood, give me guts, give me gore, murder is good, but serial killers are best. Um, so horror could, could well be on its way back. Um, and actually this year's.

Brisbane Writers Festival, I was on a panel called, uh, What Publishers Want, and I was asked this question. Um, and I kind of started talking about how the pendulum [00:19:00] swings away and and then comes back and that kind of stuff with publishing. And post COVID, you know, we really swung away from the dark themes and the really, you know, You know, dark, dark novels in our society.

And so horror was not going well. Um, you know, cozy crime came into its own, had a little, um, really good purple patch, um, lighthearted fiction, humor all doing really well. Um, but it, yeah, I don't know. I had this problem with the pendulum just going, like being really rudimentary backward and forward. So I kind of compared it to granddad's balls where they just kind of swing around.

Um, Um, I don't think I'll be invited back to the Brisbane Writers Festival after that, but um, it's kind of true because like, you know, it's not just one side to a net to the other, it's all over the shop. Um, so Grandad's bowls start to, to flop around a little bit. 

Tina: Unpredictable what they do, right?

Unpredictable, exactly. 

Samuel: Um, so yeah, maybe not back at the Brisbane Writers Festival for that, but um, yeah, so I think for [00:20:00] me, from what I'm hearing, I think those darker, Uh, maybe Australian Gothic horror, that kind of thing might well be on its way back. 

Madeleine: Awesome. 

Tina: Interesting. Interesting. Um, normally, well, I don't know if you've seen Samuel, but normally on our, on our Insta, um, about a week after we, um, do a podcast, we put up like a quote that we really liked from.

Oh God. So I'm just thinking Madeleine, can you just note that this one for just a promo? Okay. Yeah. Oh 

Samuel: no. Why did I bring that up? I was actually really regretting it after a Brisbane Writers Festival. I had authors coming up to me in the green room going like, Oh, I loved what you said about the granddad's balls.

And I was like, Oh God. I should not have said that. And then I just brought it back up again. 

Tina: Like when it's recorded. 

Samuel: Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. Now it's recorded. Oh 

Tina: my gosh. I love this. Yes. We'll use it as our quote for promo and we'll just watch those. The, the listens just spike. Oh God. [00:21:00] Oh no. Okay. Back, back more serious.

Just a couple more questions to go. Um, how can you tell us? How does the agent author relationship work after the book deal? Um, when there is also a publisher in the relationship too. 

Madeleine: A threesome. Oh my gosh, this episode. We're talking serial killers, granddads, balls, threesomes. It's just, yeah. 

Samuel: Um, yeah, it's, it's an interesting one.

And, and it's one where, um, the agent kind of has to step away a little bit more, um, at that point. Uh, so pre pre selling the rights to the book, to a publisher, um, you know, for me as an agent, I like to work pretty hands on. Um, I like to do a lot of editorial, make sure that it's, um, to a really good place, um, that I think will work in the market well.

Uh, uh, and then once it's sold. It is a little bit of handing [00:22:00] over the reins, um, to the publisher because they, they bought it. They specifically know what they want from it, um, and the direction that they want to take it. And that comes into marketing sales, all that kind of stuff. Um, so that's kind of beyond the agent then, uh, we don't have a massive say in how that sort of flows.

Um, so I think it's, it's important to remember that. Um, so when we're in the, the throttle, Maybe it might be a better way to put that. The, you know, like it's, I often have the author come back to me and say, Oh, the publisher sort of said this, what are your thoughts? You know, or, you know, this is where the author, uh, the publisher wants to take this section.

Um, how do you feel about what I've written here? So I'm still absolutely on the team and, um, giving advice and supporting the author through that process. But. It is a little bit of, um, the publisher takes the reins at that point because yeah, they're, you know, they're the ones who are going to sell this book.

Um, they know exactly what they want from it. [00:23:00] 

Madeleine: Last question. It's just a nice, serious one as well. So we can finish on a serious note. Um, when I, so I heard a rumor that Australian fantasy sci fi authors generally find it difficult to get an agent in Australia, and then they look overseas to get an agent off in the U S.

So when would it make sense to seek an overseas agent or, or is there just no difference? 

Samuel: Another deep question for rapid fire. Um, we could, we could spend hours on this one as well. Um, I guess like fantasy and sci fi, um, that is changing a little bit because there was definitely a time when, you know, America is huge, um, sellers in those genres, whereas Australia is a little bit more tame.

Um, but it is starting to build now. So for me, I guess if, if your book is based in Australia, it's got Australian characters, it's got an Australian setting, then going overseas [00:24:00] for an agent for that is probably a stretch. Um, in the fantasy realm, it is a little bit different because fantasy generally has an entirely different world, you know, galaxy universe, whatever the case is.

Um, so it can work globally. It doesn't have to have an Australian agent. So, um, that certainly, um, certainly opens that. I know a couple of, um, really good friends who are authors who have done just that. Um, which is totally fine. Um, for those more Australian, you know, maybe it's just straight commercial or, uh, you know, crime, that kind of stuff.

It is a bit more of a stretch. Um, we do have one agent, Martin Shaw, who's based in Germany, um, but who works very closely with the Australian market still. Um, but generally speaking, Look, I think, I think a lot of authors as well, from the conversations I've had, who have had international agents, they do enjoy having someone here on the ground.

Um, and that might be, you know, going to writers festivals and [00:25:00] talking to the, um, the directors of those festivals. And like, I think there's just a lot to be said for having your agent here on the ground in Australia. Um, that's just, you know, that's, that's not me trying to talk up Australian agents, um, over overseas, but that's just kind of what I've been hearing about, um, you know, in that, in that context.

So, um, you know, at Zeitgeist, we, we work across regions. So we've got our Sydney office, obviously, then we've got one in Brussels, we've got one in London. So we, we kind of are that package where we take on an author and we give them the international agents as well. But yeah, for things like fantasy and sci fi, I do get it.

And, and, you know, I'm probably learning a little bit more in that field as well, as to how maybe US agents can help those particular writers, more so than maybe ours. Yeah, it's an interesting question and, and for rapid fire, you know, I'll, I might wrap it up there. 

Madeleine: That's great. And I've, I've [00:26:00] actually heard too, that, um, a lot of authors, they get, well, everyone, we get excited about international rights and sales and, you know, if our book sells overseas, we think, oh yes, we've made it.

But in reality, for most Australian published writers, the Australian market is always going to be their biggest market. 

Samuel: Definitely. That's a hundred percent the case. And the UK is notoriously hard to get into, um, for an Australian writer. Uh, other parts of Europe, um, you know, Italy, France, Germany, um, far more, um, accessible.

Uh, but yeah, Australian writers can do really well in Australia. Um, there are countless names of authors, you know, Trent Dalton extraordinary in Australia. Um, I haven't looked at his international sales, but I would imagine like he, he's big here and, and, you know, he's made his, his work, um, known in Australia.

I can't imagine he's, he's gone internationally too hard. So yeah, it, yeah, it's, it's a [00:27:00] very interesting topic. Um, yeah, we'll have to do it for another podcast. 

Tina: Yeah. We weren't very rapid with our rapid fires. I didn't think we would be. 

Samuel: That's probably just me rambling on. Sorry about that. No, no. 

Tina: We often, yeah, it's us too.

We often find it hard to keep it short because there's so much to talk about and it's just so interesting. Thank you for sharing all your insights. 

Samuel: Wow. Pleasure. 

Madeleine: All right. So I think we normally, you've given us so many tips, but normally our last ever question and this one you can ramble if you wish, is your top tip for aspiring and emerging writers.

Samuel: Yeah, so I've, I've listened to the podcast and I've listened to all the episodes so far, and so I knew this one was coming, um, and I found it hard to sort of come down with a top tip singular, um, but I've got a few pieces of advice, so bear with me, but, um, I think one of the main ones is don't send anything out before it's ready, and we've kind of covered that, um, but [00:28:00] essentially, you know, it's not always the case, but often you've got one shot, so.

Um, when you approach a publisher or an agent with an idea and if it's half baked, then you might find, you know, you've burnt those bridges and it's hard to get it back in front of those right people again. Um, I also think immerse yourself in the industry. If you're a real, like, if you're really keen to be a writer, um, you've got to immerse yourself in the industry, go to writers festivals, um, little plug for good reading magazine, you know, subscribe to it, look at.

you know, read the reviews, what's happening in the industry, what's being well received, what's not, um, you know, read those reviews, do short courses. Like I've done some short courses with the Australian writer's center, which were fantastic. Um, all through my master's and my PhD, I was just mashing out, um, short courses.

Um, and obviously, you know, it's, It's the one gets that gets said often, um, but I still have authors coming to me with ideas and I say, have you read this? Have you read that? Have you read that [00:29:00] in, in that particular genre? And they haven't. And you're like, you know, these, these are the big writers. you've got to read it and you've got to understand it and you've got to see what they're doing well, um, to be able to then have a crack at it yourself.

Um, so I think read, read, read is my last piece of advice there. 

Madeleine: Awesome. Awesome tips. Thank you, Samuel, so much for joining us on the book deal podcast. 

Samuel: Ah, it's been a pleasure. I um, I look forward to listening to all other episodes except for this one. I just cannot go back through the granddad's balls again.

Like, let's, let's, let's be real. 

Madeleine: It's gonna be a feature, everybody. It's 

Samuel: Still cannot believe it. Like I've said it at the Brisbane Writer's Festival. I regretted it. And I've just said it again 

Madeleine: and it's immortalized now. Yeah. You've got to own it now. I think. Thank you, Samuel. 

Samuel: My pleasure. [00:30:00]